Iraq: Won, Lost or Other?

[Yurt]

I have, as most of us here, been following the situation in Iraq. Bush declared that the "mission" was accomplished some years ago? Was it? Sure, Saddam was removed, so I would consider that accomplished. I don't think though that anyone can actually say Iraq is "lost" at this point. I proffer that Iraq is still unfinished, thus, saying we won or lost is not correct at this point.

I am tired and sick though of these muslims killing each other and our troops. It is not all Iraqis, but enough so that these murderous thugs operate with impunity. Is it worth staying? If we don't, did we "lose?"

What say you?

[Yurt]

I think Pale's point is an interesting one and important to this discussion, so I brought it over here:



6. Thompson, I lived Wisconsin all the while he was governor there. He did help write the welfare reform act, but Wisconsin was and remains one of the highest taxed states in the nation for income, property and gas. Screw him. The ONLY thing I like that he says is that he'd make the Iraqis vote as to whether or not they wanted us there, and if they didn't want us there, we'd leave. Sounds good to me.

Pale (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=59398&postcount=35)

[Dilloduck]

I have, as most of us here, been following the situation in Iraq. Bush declared that the "mission" was accomplished some years ago? Was it? Sure, Saddam was removed, so I would consider that accomplished. I don't think though that anyone can actually say Iraq is "lost" at this point. I proffer that Iraq is still unfinished, thus, saying we won or lost is not correct at this point.

I am tired and sick though of these muslims killing each other and our troops. It is not all Iraqis, but enough so that these murderous thugs operate with impunity. Is it worth staying? If we don't, did we "lose?"

What say you?

The WOT has been going on forever. The civilized world versus barbarism. Al-Quaeda is just the latest face on it and attempt to give it's cause legitimacy.
The second we chose to stop fighting killing that is meant to cause fear and to rule by tyranny we lose. Al-Quaeda is presently all over Iraq. Where is the wisdom in running away and allowing them to remain there to freely regroup, refinance, re-arm and plan further attacks?

[lily]

I don't think it's lost yet, but I also don't think this president can win it.

[Yurt]

I don't think it's lost yet, but I also don't think this president can win it.

Hmm, interesting. Billary maybe? Whom do you suggest?

[lily]

Hmm, interesting. Billary maybe? Whom do you suggest?

At this point, Yurt I really don't know. I only know that too many mistakes were made in this war and continue to be made, for Bush to be able to "win". Add to that that we don't have much credibility or good will in the world and it only stands to reason that he can't do it. Hell, even the Iraqi government has no respect for him. Bush has pretty much admitted it when he said it's up to the next president.

[loosecannon]

I don't think it's lost yet, but I also don't think this president can win it.

Exactly, precisely.

BUT, do you think this president can lose it, or lose ground in it?

[lily]

Exactly, precisely.

BUT, do you think this president can lose it, or lose ground in it?


No, I think things will hold about the same until election.........but what do I know?

[Yurt]

At this point, Yurt I really don't know. I only know that too many mistakes were made in this war and continue to be made, for Bush to be able to "win". Add to that that we don't have much credibility or good will in the world and it only stands to reason that he can't do it. Hell, even the Iraqi government has no respect for him. Bush has pretty much admitted it when he said it's up to the next president.

He has said all along that it would take time. And warned Americans to be patient. So your claim has no merit.

I accept you don't know, for I do not now for sure either. That is why I think libs are wrong. There is no way to know.

As to credibility, irrelevent really. Think about billy, he had those wow peace accords in the ME, where are they are now? No where. He is a whore, was a whore, and that is it. He made pretty and nice, but did nothing concrete.

And if you think muslims or "that" arab world has respect less respect for us now, you are fooling yourself.

Please read up on Islam.

[Joe Steel]

America lost its honor when Bush attacked Iraq without provocation. The only way we can ever regain it is by leaving Iraq and begging the Iraqis for forgiveness.

[loosecannon]

No, I think things will hold about the same until election.........but what do I know?


I would like to agree but even Bush has warned that things WILL get worse before they get better as we SURGE.

They have the oil under their soil.

We wanta control that oil in fact globalization depends on it.

So we must make them into the evil that deserves to be killed.

Anytime a government tells you that "they" are evil, you should be very wary.


"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger. It is the same in any country."
--- Hermann Goering, Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe and President of the Reichstag in the Hitler regime

Goering made this statement at his Nuremburg trial.

[loosecannon]

He has said all along that it would take time. And warned Americans to be patient.


He said that because Bush plans for the war to last for decades. That was the plan, until the oil is all removed.

The invasion was formally named

O peration
I raqi
L iberation

And we are building permanent bases and the worlds largest embassy in Iraq.

There is NO PLAN to ever leave, ever. You don't build facilities that are designed for 30 years to fill a mission that could last 5 years or maybe less.

[Yurt]

America lost its honor when Bush attacked Iraq without provocation. The only way we can ever regain it is by leaving Iraq and begging the Iraqis for forgiveness.

Mayaps you should talk with the Iraqis who were killed, tortured, whatnot, under Saddam.

Nice you say this from your wee safe monitor.... You are no Iraqi, and don't ever presume to talk for them.

[Yurt]

loosecannon;59992]He said that because Bush plans for the war to last for decades. That was the plan, until the oil is all removed.

??? You make no sense. Do you have any proof for the last sentence?



The invasion was formally named

O peration
I raqi
L iberation

And we are building permanent bases and the worlds largest embassy in Iraq.

There is NO PLAN to ever leave, ever. You don't build facilities that are designed for 30 years to fill a mission that could last 5 years or maybe less.


Huh? Germany? Japan? I could perhaps go back in history with your "5" year" standard. You are spouting nonsense. No proof.

According to your logic, we should only build faclities that last ONLY as long as were "predict" hostile engagements...

Are you mad? So we should build 5 year buildings? Where is your flag of surrender? This building will last only X years......

[lily]

He has said all along that it would take time. And warned Americans to be patient. So your claim has no merit.

Um...no that would be the war on terror.......not the war in Iraq.



I accept you don't know, for I do not now for sure either. That is why I think libs are wrong. There is no way to know.

That's the good thing about opinions.......everybody has one.


As to credibility, irrelevent really.

It's easy to say when you don't have it. Can you honestly say that anyone would believe anything we have to say right now? Iran could have a nuke with USA engraved on it and no one would believe us.


Think about billy, he had those wow peace accords in the ME, where are they are now? No where. He is a whore, was a whore, and that is it. He made pretty and nice, but did nothing concrete.

Sorry, I don't do "Bill did":.........It's 6 years into this presidency. It's time he owned it. We can talk about Bill Ronnie, Carter, Kennedy all day long, but it doesn't change the facts of what is going on now.


And if you think muslims or "that" arab world has respect less respect for us now, you are fooling yourself.

Hmmmmm.......didn't we go into this war with respect? If you don't see the Iraqi government taking the summer off, and the Sunni's threatening to pull out and refusing a trip to the White House to talk as no respect for this administration, then I don't know what to tell you. Hell.......we're even losing our closest ally there Saudi Arabia.


Please read up on Islam.


I have. I might suggest that you might want to check out the difference between Islam and radical Islam.:salute:

[lily]

Mayaps you should talk with the Iraqis who were killed, tortured, whatnot, under Saddam.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/26/AR2006092601721.html


Most Iraqis Favor Immediate U.S. Pullout, Polls Show
Leaders' Views Out of Step With Public

By Amit R. Paley
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, September 27, 2006; Page A22

BAGHDAD, Sept. 26 -- A strong majority of Iraqis want U.S.-led military
forces to immediately withdraw from the country, saying their swift
departure would make Iraq more secure and decrease sectarian violence,
according to new polls by the State Department and independent researchers.

In Baghdad, for example, nearly three-quarters of residents polled said they
would feel safer if U.S. and other foreign forces left Iraq, with 65 percent
of those asked favoring an immediate pullout, according to State Department
polling results obtained by The Washington Post.

[loosecannon]

??? You make no sense. Do you have any proof for the last sentence?


I provided some proof yurt, you don't build 17 permanent military bases and the worlds largest embassy (bigger than DC) if your goal is Iraqi independence.







Huh? Germany? Japan? I could perhaps go back in history with your "5" year" standard. You are spouting nonsense. No proof.

According to your logic, we should only build faclities that last ONLY as long as were "predict" hostile engagements...

Are you mad? So we should build 5 year buildings? Where is your flag of surrender? This building will last only X years......

Are you mad Yurt? Can you post in english grammar please and with relative rationality? Whatever you meant came across like chicken scratch on a high fi.

The mission was supposed to be over in weeks, paid for with Iraqi oil and yet we are laying the foundations for a 30 years stay?

You do the math Mr Psillysibin. Who is BSing whom?

Bush invaded to stay for decades and you know it.

[nevadamedic]

??? You make no sense. Do you have any proof for the last sentence?





Huh? Germany? Japan? I could perhaps go back in history with your "5" year" standard. You are spouting nonsense. No proof.

According to your logic, we should only build faclities that last ONLY as long as were "predict" hostile engagements...

Are you mad? So we should build 5 year buildings? Where is your flag of surrender? This building will last only X years......

Just take Loose with a grain of salt, he never makes sense.

[loosecannon]

Just take Loose with a grain of salt, he never makes sense.

wow, what a scathing smackdown by the villiage idiot.

But no content, as usual.

[Joe Steel]

Mayaps you should talk with the Iraqis who were killed, tortured, whatnot, under Saddam.

Nice you say this from your wee safe monitor.... You are no Iraqi, and don't ever presume to talk for them.


Are you suggesting the Iraqi people asked for U. S. intervention? I don't recall ever hearing that. When was it?

[glockmail]

America lost its honor when Bush attacked Iraq without provocation. The only way we can ever regain it is by leaving Iraq and begging the Iraqis for forgiveness. Saddam never threatened the US? Saddam never attempted to assasinate Bush 41? Saddam never helped bin Laden and other terrorists who attacked us and made plans to attack again? Saddam was forthcoming in his verification of WMDs, required under his treaty with us after GW1?

Have you been living under a rock?

[loosecannon]

Saddam never threatened the US?

Saddam had no means to threaten the US. He was our ally until we turned on him and disarmed him.


Saddam never attempted to assasinate Bush 41?

I never saw evidence either way. Whaduya got?


Saddam never helped bin Laden and other terrorists who attacked us and made plans to attack again?

NO, This lie has been debunked by Bush himself, several times.


Saddam was forthcoming in his verification of WMDs, required under his treaty with us after GW1?

No, But he was disarmed. You said "threaten the US". You didn't ask if Saddam bent over and asked to get it hard, or stuck his head in the noose voluntarily. But he was disarmed and therefore no threat.


Have you been living under a rock?

Back at you Glock. Are you among the 50% of Americans who is so out of touch that they imagine Saddam was a threat to the US or a sponsor of terrorist threats against the US?

Provide some evidence please.

[gabosaurus]

There is no way you are going to win a conflict if you don't know who the enemy is. At the present, our troops in Iraq are sitting ducks for whoever wants to take a shot at them. The Bush/Pentagon response to larger numbers of our troops getting killed is to send more troops over to get killed.
The Bushies are treading water. Their current plan is to prolong the war long enough to make it someone else's problem. They have no clue whatsoever about how to end the conflict. Bush simply enjoys being "the War President."
Bush apologists also enjoy the war. They defend the increasing loss of life by pinning "cut and run" and "defeatist" tags on anyone who proposes an end to the continuing slaughter of American troops.
There is no way for the U.S. to conventionally "win" the Iraq conflict. The Iraqi do not want to defend themselves. They are depending on the U.S. to do it. The U.S. has done its part. It is time for the Iraqis to do their part. It is time for a complete and total withdrawal.
Anyone against total withdrawal is obviously enjoying the carnage too much to think logically.

[gabosaurus]

http://www.oldamericancentury.com/sacrifice_2.jpg

[glockmail]

.....


Back at you Glock. Are you among the 50% of Americans who is so out of touch that they imagine Saddam was a threat to the US or a sponsor of terrorist threats against the US?

Provide some evidence please.

I'm glad to be in the smart 50.

Sorry, but I don't play your game of providing links for you to spin and weave. :laugh2:

[Joe Steel]

Saddam never threatened the US? Saddam never attempted to assasinate Bush 41? Saddam never helped bin Laden and other terrorists who attacked us and made plans to attack again? Saddam was forthcoming in his verification of WMDs, required under his treaty with us after GW1?

Have you been living under a rock?

No.
No.
No.
I don't know.
No.

[glockmail]

No.
No.
No.
I don't know.
No.

You're blind to the truth. But what's new?

[Joe Steel]

You're blind to the truth. But what's new?

I love the truth. That's why its the exclusive basis of my postings.

[manu1959]

if you went to the four branches of the military as well as FBI and CIA and told them to secure iraq at any cost......

you would win ....

america does not have it in them ....

rome burns........

[manu1959]

No.
No.
No.
I don't know.
No.

1 for 5.............F

[loosecannon]

1 for 5.............F

4 for 5 correct. B

[Yurt]

Thanks for the post. I don't agree with it entirely, however, a good post.



gabosaurus;60107]There is no way you are going to win a conflict if you don't know who the enemy is. At the present, our troops in Iraq are sitting ducks for whoever wants to take a shot at them. The Bush/Pentagon response to larger numbers of our troops getting killed is to send more troops over to get killed.

Technically true about the enemy part and this is where I struggle with Iraq. I also like you labeled it a conflict, for it is not a "war." It might be a "war," if we admit to ourselves that AQ and other peaceful muslims who want to kill us have taken their war against America to the land of Iraq as it is closer. I believe this is happening. We won the initial "war." Saddam is gone.

Since I am not an expert in military matters, I defer whether more troops is good or bad. Perhaps DMP or Gunny or others might be able to answer that. In fact, it would be great to hear from them on this matter.



The Bushies are treading water. Their current plan is to prolong the war long enough to make it someone else's problem.

I disagree. And you have now labeled it "war." If Bush was able to stabilize Iraq before the elections, it would give an immense boost to the republican party.




They have no clue whatsoever about how to end the conflict. Bush simply enjoys being "the War President."

Hyperbole


Bush apologists also enjoy the war. They defend the increasing loss of life by pinning "cut and run" and "defeatist" tags on anyone who proposes an end to the continuing slaughter of American troops.

But they are "cutting" their losses and "leaving"......




There is no way for the U.S. to conventionally "win" the Iraq conflict. The Iraqi do not want to defend themselves. They are depending on the U.S. to do it. The U.S. has done its part. It is time for the Iraqis to do their part. It is time for a complete and total withdrawal.

This is exactly why I made this thread. I am not sure where I stand on this issue. Very interesting point. I agree with Manu though with regards to his comparison with Rome. We don't have the will, thus Rome burns.



Anyone against total withdrawal is obviously enjoying the carnage too much to think logically.

gibberish

[Gaffer]

There is no way you are going to win a conflict if you don't know who the enemy is. At the present, our troops in Iraq are sitting ducks for whoever wants to take a shot at them. The Bush/Pentagon response to larger numbers of our troops getting killed is to send more troops over to get killed.
The Bushies are treading water. Their current plan is to prolong the war long enough to make it someone else's problem. They have no clue whatsoever about how to end the conflict. Bush simply enjoys being "the War President."
Bush apologists also enjoy the war. They defend the increasing loss of life by pinning "cut and run" and "defeatist" tags on anyone who proposes an end to the continuing slaughter of American troops.
There is no way for the U.S. to conventionally "win" the Iraq conflict. The Iraqi do not want to defend themselves. They are depending on the U.S. to do it. The U.S. has done its part. It is time for the Iraqis to do their part. It is time for a complete and total withdrawal.
Anyone against total withdrawal is obviously enjoying the carnage too much to think logically.

We are winning the conflict (as you call) right now. It's actually a war. It's a part of the war with islam which we are fighting worldwide, not just in iraq. Most of the fighting right now is with al queda types, and the iraqi's are fighting with us. It's a slow process with a lot of hard fighting.

When your enemy hides among the general population it makes it hard to spot them until they take action. Which is why there are iraqi soldiers working with our soldiers. There are ways to spot suspicious persons in a combat zone and our troops know what to look for. They are not just wandering aimlessly around waiting to be shot at.

The idea that more troops means more casualties is stupid. It means more area covered and more fire power from your side. It means more enemy dead and captured and more territory held.

The current plan is NOT to prolong the war. It's to secure the country and prevent al queda and iran from taking control of it.

Cut and run is not an option in this. If you want to cut and run then you are a defeatist. And you are disrespecting the troops by even suggesting this.

A win in iraq will come when the government there is able to handle the security of its country and the al queda elements can be driven out. That is happening. The iraqi's are taking more and more responsibility for the fighting. There will never be a total withdrawl from iraq. We will have bases there far into the future. We will need them when we fight iran.

[GW in Ohio]

Friends....

Iraq was "lost" the moment Dick Cheney talked the boy king into invading that hapless country.

There is no good outcome from this mess that our idiot president and his gang of idiot advisors have created.

The best course of action now is to cut our losses and get out. In fact, we should disengage from the entire Middle East. The region is filled with crazy people. If we are not there to provide a target, they will turn on one another.

Get out of the Middle East and concentrate on shoring up our own borders.

We should do as someone has suggested and let the Iraqis vote on whether they want us there. Of course, that will never happen because the Bushies know what the outcome would be.

[chum43]

the purpose was never to win, and we will never lose it... the purpose was to be there, and we're there... that is the problem... it's an occupation, you rarely hear of anyone being killed in any sort of battle, it's just they were there and they got killed, since the first few weeks we've just been holding the ground. What we need to do is decide to actually win or end it... there really is no way we could actually lose, at least in a sense of the opposition winning. With absolutely no disrespect to our troops, we aren't really trying to win, on a strategic level, not an effort level... and that is the big problem I see.

[Joe Steel]

Friends....

Iraq was "lost" the moment Dick Cheney talked the boy king into invading that hapless country.

There is no good outcome from this mess that our idiot president and his gang of idiot advisors have created.

The best course of action now is to cut our losses and get out. In fact, we should disengage from the entire Middle East. The region is filled with crazy people. If we are not there to provide a target, they will turn on one another.

Get out of the Middle East and concentrate on shoring up our own borders.

We should do as someone has suggested and let the Iraqis vote on whether they want us there. Of course, that will never happen because the Bushies know what the outcome would be.

Exactly.

The U. S. should leave Iraq now, stop supporting Israel and ask the Arabs for forgiveness.

[glockmail]

We are winning the conflict (as you call) right now. It's actually a war. It's a part of the war with islam which we are fighting worldwide, not just in iraq. Most of the fighting right now is with al queda types, and the iraqi's are fighting with us. It's a slow process with a lot of hard fighting.

When your enemy hides among the general population it makes it hard to spot them until they take action. Which is why there are iraqi soldiers working with our soldiers. There are ways to spot suspicious persons in a combat zone and our troops know what to look for. They are not just wandering aimlessly around waiting to be shot at.

The idea that more troops means more casualties is stupid. It means more area covered and more fire power from your side. It means more enemy dead and captured and more territory held.

The current plan is NOT to prolong the war. It's to secure the country and prevent al queda and iran from taking control of it.

Cut and run is not an option in this. If you want to cut and run then you are a defeatist. And you are disrespecting the troops by even suggesting this.

A win in iraq will come when the government there is able to handle the security of its country and the al queda elements can be driven out. That is happening. The iraqi's are taking more and more responsibility for the fighting. There will never be a total withdrawl from iraq. We will have bases there far into the future. We will need them when we fight iran.

I think you hit this one dead on, man. But these stoopid libs we have on this board are so out of touch with reality, so closed minded, and so hateful of our president and troops that no mount of logic and common sense could convince them of the truth. :salute:

[GW in Ohio]

The situation we've put ourselves in in Iraq reminds me so much of the old Roman Empire.

The Romans tried to subdue a far-flung empire that covered most of Europe and it was an impossible task.

Everybody hated Rome and Romans everywhere walked around as despised symbols of an intrusive empire.

George Bush reminds me a lot of some of the worst Roman emperors......stupid, insulated, vain, and ruled by a cabal of venal counselors.

[glockmail]

Friends....

Iraq was "lost" the moment Dick Cheney talked the boy king into invading that hapless country.

There is no good outcome from this mess that our idiot president and his gang of idiot advisors have created.

The best course of action now is to cut our losses and get out. In fact, we should disengage from the entire Middle East. The region is filled with crazy people. If we are not there to provide a target, they will turn on one another.

Get out of the Middle East and concentrate on shoring up our own borders.

We should do as someone has suggested and let the Iraqis vote on whether they want us there. Of course, that will never happen because the Bushies know what the outcome would be.


Exactly.

The U. S. leave Iraq now, stop supporting Israel and ask the Arabs for forgiveness.

You two should get a room and a bucket of vaseline and go at it. :fu:

[Yurt]

GW in Ohio;60984]Friends....

Iraq was "lost" the moment Dick Cheney talked the boy king into invading that hapless country.

And with loser attitudes like that, we wonder why "rome" is burning...



There is no good outcome from this mess that our idiot president and his gang of idiot advisors have created.

Typical logical fallacy of the left. If I insult enough, I must be right...



The best course of action now is to cut our losses and get out. In fact, we should disengage from the entire Middle East. The region is filled with crazy people. If we are not there to provide a target, they will turn on one another.

So you are a "cut and run" person? I think it would be very dangerous to disengage the middle east. You seem to have no knowledge of Islam and what it means. Don't forget, there have been attacks on this soil before Afgan and Iraq. So not sure what you are advocating. Maybe you are really scared of OBL. Check your history about Islamic expansion and then go to a few muslim sites and you will see that they truly believe their spiritual leader is "alive" and will lead them into the last battle. A battle against all the earth, for the earth must, I repeat, must, be subjugated under Islam.



Get out of the Middle East and concentrate on shoring up our own borders.

A castle only works until they build something to defeat the impregnable castle....


We should do as someone has suggested and let the Iraqis vote on whether they want us there. Of course, that will never happen because the Bushies know what the outcome would be.

I doubt it.

[nevadamedic]

Thanks for the post. I don't agree with it entirely, however, a good post.




Technically true about the enemy part and this is where I struggle with Iraq. I also like you labeled it a conflict, for it is not a "war." It might be a "war," if we admit to ourselves that AQ and other peaceful muslims who want to kill us have taken their war against America to the land of Iraq as it is closer. I believe this is happening. We won the initial "war." Saddam is gone.

Since I am not an expert in military matters, I defer whether more troops is good or bad. Perhaps DMP or Gunny or others might be able to answer that. In fact, it would be great to hear from them on this matter.




I disagree. And you have now labeled it "war." If Bush was able to stabilize Iraq before the elections, it would give an immense boost to the republican party.





Hyperbole



But they are "cutting" their losses and "leaving"......





This is exactly why I made this thread. I am not sure where I stand on this issue. Very interesting point. I agree with Manu though with regards to his comparison with Rome. We don't have the will, thus Rome burns.




gibberish

You shouold really talk to your doctor about putting you on Lithium.

[Yurt]

You shouold really talk to your doctor about putting you on Lithium.

WTF?

[Gaffer]

Exactly.

The U. S. should leave Iraq now, stop supporting Israel and ask the Arabs for forgiveness.

So your a dhimmi. Kiss arab ass and everything is ok. :pee: islam

[loosecannon]

I think you hit this one dead on, man. But these stoopid libs we have on this board are so out of touch with reality, so closed minded, and so hateful of our president and troops that no mount of logic and common sense could convince them of the truth. :salute:

Unfortunately Gaffer didn't post any logic or common sense.

Gaffer clicked his heels punched his flat hand in the direction of dear leader and burped "Bush" at full volume.

Gaffe is a brainwashed fool who regurgitates the lies of Bush about an "islamofascist threat" and WMD and OBL. All of it is crap and the Bushies don't give a damned about keeping you safe anyway. They would just as soon give your job to some wetback or chink for half or 1/10th thwe wage you make and open the borders wide open to mexican trucking.

But you are STILL such a dope that you believe every bit of nonsense dribble they serve you.

Glock: "This shit is delicious sir Bush, it tastes just like cake!"

[loosecannon]

You shouold really talk to your doctor about putting you on Lithium.

So you are getting good results from your lithium prescrip Nevada medic?

[loosecannon]

So your a dhimmi. Kiss arab ass and everything is ok. :pee: islam

Better than being a complete Gaffehole I suppose

[Joe Steel]

You two should get a room and a bucket of vaseline and go at it. :fu:

I'd prefer you keep your sexual fantasies to yourself.

[Yurt]

Better than being a complete Gaffehole I suppose

So you have no problem with Islam's goal? Afterall, it is better than ______

[Yurt]

Unfortunately Gaffer didn't post any logic or common sense.

Gaffer clicked his heels punched his flat hand in the direction of dear leader and burped "Bush" at full volume.

Gaffe is a brainwashed fool who regurgitates the lies of Bush about an "islamofascist threat" and WMD and OBL. All of it is crap and the Bushies don't give a damned about keeping you safe anyway. They would just as soon give your job to some wetback or chink for half or 1/10th thwe wage you make and open the borders wide open to mexican trucking.

But you are STILL such a dope that you believe every bit of nonsense dribble they serve you.

Glock: "This shit is delicious sir Bush, it tastes just like cake!"

How you managed to speak nothing of the thread title is impressive. Good insults, logical fallacies and such.... bravo!

[Gaffer]

Unfortunately Gaffer didn't post any logic or common sense.

Gaffer clicked his heels punched his flat hand in the direction of dear leader and burped "Bush" at full volume.

Gaffe is a brainwashed fool who regurgitates the lies of Bush about an "islamofascist threat" and WMD and OBL. All of it is crap and the Bushies don't give a damned about keeping you safe anyway. They would just as soon give your job to some wetback or chink for half or 1/10th thwe wage you make and open the borders wide open to mexican trucking.

But you are STILL such a dope that you believe every bit of nonsense dribble they serve you.

Glock: "This shit is delicious sir Bush, it tastes just like cake!"

Once again you can't refute anything with facts so you make attacks. Nice try comrade.

[loosecannon]

So you have no problem with Islam's goal? Afterall, it is better than ______

Yurt the islamofascist threat is a myth. They aren't fascists.

The Salafist threat is increasing dramatically under bush's mismanagement, and I will even throw in a Clinton's mismanagement just to be fair.

But how much of Islam shares this neocaliphate vision? 1%?

I mean seriously, the threat of the soviets and the chinese is almost dormant but still much larger than the Islamofascist BS cooked up to get a rise out of kool aid drinkers.

Even all of the impact of 9/11 still pale compared to domestic homicide, auto deaths and alcohol.

Hell Katrina is many times the threat of Saddam, Saddam's WMD and Islamofascists combined.

And like i said the "leaders" who sold you on this bill of goods has no interest in protecting you. They would instead peel the borders wide open exposing the fraud that is their campaign of fear and hatemongering.

If Bush believed a word of it would he still have many freinds in the Bin Laden and House of Saud families?

Would haliburton be moving to Dubai?

Would Bush be prying open the borders and trying his best to sell our ports?

Think about it.

[loosecannon]

Once again you can't refute anything with facts so you make attacks. Nice try comrade.

I refuting your memorized recititaion of the party Crapline without any insults. And with ease.

The dramatic episode at the end was just to show how absurd your beliefs are.

You are a good bushbot, you serve the fascist king very loyally. And you have all the integrity of his pet Gonzo.

[loosecannon]

How you managed to speak nothing of the thread title is impressive. Good insults, logical fallacies and such.... bravo!

Yes I was off topic. Ban me. Then ban Glock, then ban Gaffer, then ban yourself.

[glockmail]

.....
Glock: "This shit is delicious sir Bush, it tastes just like cake!" I'm really sick of you today. Why don't you play dodge-em on the interstate for a while and come back later?

[glockmail]

I'd prefer you keep your sexual fantasies to yourself.
I didn't say anything about sex. It appears therefore that you are the one with a hard-on for your liberal buddy.
:laugh2:

[loosecannon]

I'm really sick of you today.

Why Glock, I am having fun:laugh2: :clap: :laugh2: :clap:

[glockmail]

Yes I was off topic. Ban me. Then ban Glock, then ban Gaffer, then ban yourself.
Ban roll-on.

[loosecannon]

I didn't say anything about sex. It appears therefore that you are the one with a hard-on for your liberal buddy.
:laugh2:


No you just said you would like to see the two of them guys locked in a room with a pail of vaseline "going at it".

The definition if "it" is what in your kindom by the sea?

[Said1]

The definition if "it" is what in your kindom by the sea?

Simply innuendo followed by denial as per his usual. :laugh2:

[Yurt]

As to your stupid post about banning you... I have no desire to ban you. So stop making such silly posts.



Yurt the islamofascist threat is a myth. They aren't fascists.

Where did I say they are fascists? I said they are a threat and their goal is entire world domination under the religious tenents. Read more carefully next time.




The Salafist threat is increasing dramatically under bush's mismanagement, and I will even throw in a Clinton's mismanagement just to be fair.

I don't care about fair. Their goal from day one is simple, world domination.

YURT:


So you have no problem with Islam's goal? Afterall, it is better than ______


You again fail to address the key issue of my post and instead prattle on....

what do you think is Islam's goal?


But how much of Islam shares this neocaliphate vision? 1%?


Study Islam. Trust me. A "true" muslim believes the world must be conquered by Islam. Study their "last days" stuff and the Al Mahdi. Don't try to understand it with your western mind, really study it, and then get back to me.




I mean seriously, the threat of the soviets and the chinese is almost dormant but still much larger than the Islamofascist BS cooked up to get a rise out of kool aid drinkers.

How long has Islam been here? You are ignoring the facts and thinking of Islam as some non religious entity. Serious, you seem to not be entirely stupid, though you go on crazy rants, but I know you can understand the history of Islam.



Even all of the impact of 9/11 still pale compared to domestic homicide, auto deaths and alcohol.

Hell Katrina is many times the threat of Saddam, Saddam's WMD and Islamofascists combined.

You are thinking in secular terms. That can and will get you killed under a caliphate.



And like i said the "leaders" who sold you on this bill of goods has no interest in protecting you. They would instead peel the borders wide open exposing the fraud that is their campaign of fear and hatemongering.

If Bush believed a word of it would he still have many freinds in the Bin Laden and House of Saud families?

Would haliburton be moving to Dubai?

Would Bush be prying open the borders and trying his best to sell our ports?

Think about it.

This is not about Bush and his ill fated border plan. Stick to the points.

[glockmail]

No you just said you would like to see the two of them guys locked in a room with a pail of vaseline "going at it".

The definition if "it" is what in your kindom by the sea?


Simply innuendo followed by denial as per his usual. :laugh2:

Use your imaginations, and go right into the toilet.

:laugh2:

[loosecannon]

Where did I say they are fascists? I said they are a threat and their goal is entire world domination under the religious tenents. Read more carefully next time.

I think the term islamofascist can be said to imply some fascist component no?






I don't care about fair. Their goal from day one is simple, world domination.

Paranoid delusions with no basis whatsoever in reality. Unless you are targeting that remark at perhaps 1000 freaks out of a Muslim population of 1.2 billion.

And be advised there are just as many Anglo christian freaks as there are freaks of any other variety.

[Yurt]

loosecannon;61272]I think the term islamofascist can be said to imply some fascist component no?

I don't remember saying this. Not saying I did not, but give us link.





Paranoid delusions with no basis whatsoever in reality. Unless you are targeting that remark at perhaps 1000 freaks out of a Muslim population of 1.2 billion.

And be advised there are just as many Anglo christian freaks as there are freaks of any other variety

Once again, you fail to address the post. And then you attack. We know you are a lousy debator, but come on, this post was lame. At least respond to the points....

[loosecannon]

Use your imaginations, and go right into the toilet.

:laugh2:

Bite me. You were fantasiziing about two oily men engaged in a session of "congress".

[glockmail]

Bite me. You were fantasiziing about two oily men engaged in a session of "congress". You are visualizing the two men putting the vaseline on their bodies? :slap:

[loosecannon]

You are visualizing the two men putting the vaseline on their bodies? :slap:


LOL, You are busted Glock.

[loosecannon]

what do you think is Islam's goal?

I think the goals of Islamists are as numerous as the stars.

Islam is not a cognitive being. It has no goals





Study Islam. Trust me. A "true" muslim believes the world must be conquered by Islam. Study their "last days" stuff and the Al Mahdi. Don't try to understand it with your western mind, really study it, and then get back to me.


Sure but true christians believe the exact same things and true christians actually did conquer the world and still control prob half of it.

I find it so bizarrely interesting that folks who think that the Muslim population is neither fit for or capable of more than herding camels would live quaking in fear that they will over run nuclear armed, missile defended, satelite surveyed nations and actually do anything more than scratch us.

The Islamofascist threat is on a par with genetic engineering, the flu, religions of ANY variety, and maybe the auto.

There is no Islamofascist threat worth dwelling on. Unless you are a Koolaid KooKoo.


And what threat must be dealt with is one that we are largely responsible for fomenting.

If you take any of this seriously you really ought to be a whole lot more concerned about how the BA policies have been a "catastrophic success", and counter productive to the cause of eliminating an "islamofascist" threat.

[Gaffer]

I think the goals of Islamists are as numerous as the stars.

Islam is not a cognitive being. It has no goals


No, its an ideology. And the goal is to dominate the world.



Sure but true christians believe the exact same things and true christians actually did conquer the world and still control prob half of it.

Not even close. No part of christianity teaches conquest of the world or anything else. And christianity did not conquor the world or even half of it. The crusades were a defensive measure to stop the spread of islam and only involved the middle east. Read some real history for a change.

I find it so bizarrely interesting that folks who think that the Muslim population is neither fit for or capable of more than herding camels would live quaking in fear that they will over run nuclear armed, missile defended, satelite surveyed nations and actually do anything more than scratch us.

Its bizzare that a bunch of camel herders took over 4 planes and crashed them? It's bizarre that iran is developing nukes to use on us? It's bizarre that all those camel herders who have made bombing attacks major cities in europe and the south pacific? You are the bizarre one around here comrade. You can even concieve of the threat to your own life these "camel herders" represent.

The Islamofascist threat is on a par with genetic engineering, the flu, religions of ANY variety, and maybe the auto.

There is no Islamofascist threat worth dwelling on. Unless you are a Koolaid KooKoo.

You just keep believing that silly rhetoric. Your not safe from them unless your one of them. Are you?

And what threat must be dealt with is one that we are largely responsible for fomenting.

The only thing we are responsible for is not being islamic. I do hope you get to witness the next major attack up close and personal.

If you take any of this seriously you really ought to be a whole lot more concerned about how the BA policies have been a "catastrophic success", and counter productive to the cause of eliminating an "islamofascist" threat.

We need to eliminate islam before we can get rid of the islamofacist threat. There is no such thing as islamofacists, just islam.

[avatar4321]

we are still fighting it. Its absurd to declare that we lost in the middle. Especially when by any objective standards we are much closer to victory.

[loosecannon]

We need to eliminate islam before we can get rid of the islamofacist threat. There is no such thing as islamofacists, just islam.

Iran is surely not developing nukes to use against us.

Ideologies have no goals. They are ideas, nothing more.

Christianity DOES teach conquest, it advocates going out and making converts of ALL THE WORLD. AND christian nations did that a few hundred years ago. The bible was used as one of the prime justifications and tools to accomplish that conquest.

Most of maybe almost all of the bombings in Europe were commited by Europeans.

Your persistant accusation that people who know better than you are therefore Islamists is as much bull as your paranoid perspective of Islamofascists.

BUT if you even did believe that crap why are you supportive of increasing the islamofascist threat by invading ME nations?

And why do your dear leaders obviously not give a shit about peeling open our borders and even moving their corporate headquarters to Islamofascist land?

If Cheney thought Islamofascism was a threat wouldn't he be advising his former company NOT to relocate to the terror zone in the ME, Dubai?

I mean Dubai is about 100 miles from Iran, right in the Persian gulf.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/maps/ae-map.gif

If this 100 year war with Islamofascists was real, why would Haliburton move corporate headquarters into a war zone?

[TheSage]

Iran is surely not developing nukes to use against us.

Ideologies have no goals. They are ideas, nothing more.

Christianity DOES teach conquest, it advocates going out and making converts of ALL THE WORLD. AND christian nations did that a few hundred years ago. The bible was used as one of the prime justifications and tools to accomplish that conquest.

Most of maybe almost all of the bombings in Europe were commited by Europeans.

Your persistant accusation that people who know better than you are therefore Islamists is as much bull as your paranoid perspective of Islamofascists.

BUT if you even did believe that crap why are you supportive of increasing the islamofascist threat by invading ME nations?

And why do your dear leaders obviously not give a shit about peeling open our borders and even moving their corporate headquarters to Islamofascist land?

If Cheney thought Islamofascism was a threat wouldn't he be advising his former company NOT to relocate to the terror zone in the ME, Dubai?

I mean Dubai is about 100 miles from Iran, right in the Persian gulf.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/maps/ae-map.gif

If this 100 year war with Islamofascists was real, why would Haliburton move corporate headquarters into a war zone?


SO ideologies have no goals, but christianity teaches conquest? You're self-negating with your own idiocy, loose. Sometimes you're smart, but sometimes you ain't.

The war with islam is real, but our leadership will not fight it in an effective way. Number one thing to do?

Ban Muslim Immigration Now!

[loosecannon]

We need to eliminate islam before we can get rid of the islamofacist threat. There is no such thing as islamofacists, just islam.


You do realize that you are advocating a Holy war against 1.2 billion people's religion right?

IOW YOU gaffe are suggesting that we destroy their religion.

Which makes YOU guilty of advocating the EXACT same offense you fear from Islam.

[loosecannon]

SO ideologies have no goals, but christianity teaches conquest? You're self-negating with your own idiocy, loose. Sometimes you're smart, but sometimes you ain't.

The war with islam is real, but our leadership will not fight it in an effective way. Number one thing to do?

Ban Muslim Immigration Now!

Christianity actually DID conquer half of the world. It did more than just teach that idea.

Islam is not much different except that it has only realized marginal success, and only amongst very poor people. Poor and powerless.

No threat.

[Doniston]

we are still fighting it. Its absurd to declare that we lost in the middle. Especially when by any objective standards we are much closer to victory. one of two questions

1. Who are you responding to?

or

2. what (which) are we still fighting? Afganistan?, Iraq,? WOT? or, ????

[Gaffer]

You do realize that you are advocating a Holy war against 1.2 billion people's religion right?

IOW YOU gaffe are suggesting that we destroy their religion.

Which makes YOU guilty of advocating the EXACT same offense you fear from Islam.

yep that's what I'm saying. They do have an option, convert to anything else or die.

[loosecannon]

yep that's what I'm saying. They do have an option, convert to anything else or die.

OK, so long as you realize you are commiting the very sin you accuse them of.

Accusations. Whomever acts on them first goes to hell.

[Gaffer]

OK, so long as you realize you are commiting the very sin you accuse them of.

Accusations. Whomever acts on them first goes to hell.

Acting on them is called self preservation. I don't believe in hell, so I can't be damned for my thoughts.

[nevadamedic]

Acting on them is called self preservation. I don't believe in hell, so I can't be damned for my thoughts.

:clap: Although I believe in God and Hell but if someone doesn't believe in them then thats their right, thats the beauty of being an American.

[nevadamedic]

OK, so long as you realize you are commiting the very sin you accuse them of.

Accusations. Whomever acts on them first goes to hell.

How's he committing a sin if he doesn't believe in that?