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View Full Version : Army faults officers in soldier's death



gabosaurus
05-17-2007, 10:54 AM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4811482.html


WASHINGTON Poor leadership and complacency in a U.S. military unit contributed to the abduction and murder by insurgents of Pfc. Kristian Menchaca of Houston and another soldier in Iraq last year, near where three soldiers vanished last weekend, according to an internal Army report.

The mutilated bodies of Menchaca and Pfc. Thomas Tucker were recovered three days after their June 16 kidnapping. The attack in Mahmoudiya, Iraq, appeared eerily similar to the assault on Saturday that left four GIs dead and the three others missing.

"This was an event caused by numerous acts of complacency and a lack of standards at the platoon level," according to the report, obtained by the Houston Chronicle on Wednesday.

darin
05-17-2007, 10:57 AM
The Army is absolutely the BEST organization on the planet at holding people accountable. HOOAH Army for policing it's own. Of Course - you probably didn't read the part about the logistics problems the unit faces. Budgets drive logistics.


THIS part is jacked up - I'm sorry, though, because you typically don't like to say anything bad about anybody BUT the US Military..


Among the most damning: An Iraqi Army unit less than 900 meters from the attack did nothing to aid Menchaca and the other soldiers. The Iraqi soldiers claimed they were unaware of the attack, but Army investigator Lt. Col. Timothy Daugherty wrote, "I think the IA (Iraqi Army) likely did hear and see the attack ... I believe that they then (chose) to not become an active participant in the attack on either side."

Monkeybone
05-17-2007, 11:03 AM
didn't it say that they only had one hmv? and the IA prob didn't do anything because these weren't pl that they could bully.


or their cousins.

gabosaurus
05-17-2007, 11:19 AM
The military is good at placing the blame on non-coms and lower level officers. Fault rarely progresses too far up the chain of command.

darin
05-17-2007, 11:28 AM
The military is good at placing the blame on non-coms and lower level officers. Fault rarely progresses too far up the chain of command.

We'll have a good discussion when you come back to reality.

Samantha
05-17-2007, 11:48 AM
The military is good at placing the blame on non-coms and lower level officers. Fault rarely progresses too far up the chain of command.It's attitudes like dmp's that make this possible.

darin
05-17-2007, 11:50 AM
It's attitudes like dmp's that make this possible.

Make what possible?

gabosaurus
05-17-2007, 01:45 PM
Blame for military mistakes rarely makes it too far up the chain of command. The torture camp debacle is a good example. Orders concerned the methods used in the torture camps came straight from the Pentagon and the White House. It was the non-coms and lower echelon that got busted for it.
I bet Cheney is still laughing about the whole thing.

darin
05-17-2007, 03:07 PM
Blame for military mistakes rarely makes it too far up the chain of command. The torture camp debacle is a good example.

What's a Torture Camp?


Orders concerned the methods used in the torture camps came straight from the Pentagon and the White House. It was the non-coms and lower echelon that got busted for it.
I bet Cheney is still laughing about the whole thing.


Are you talking of Abo Graib? (sp?) - Who committed the acts? Reasonable people hold those who do the acts responsible for the crime. As an example, we don't 'fire' Bill Gates because one of his Janitors stole from work, right?

Gaffer
05-17-2007, 04:05 PM
Blame for military mistakes rarely makes it too far up the chain of command. The torture camp debacle is a good example. Orders concerned the methods used in the torture camps came straight from the Pentagon and the White House. It was the non-coms and lower echelon that got busted for it.
I bet Cheney is still laughing about the whole thing.

You know NOTHING about the military. When events happen the people involved are the lower ranks. Even Colonels are rarely involved with frontline activities. There are NO orders being sent down through the chain of command to act like buttheads. That only exists in your warped imagination.

5stringJeff
05-17-2007, 10:36 PM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4811482.html
"This was an event caused by numerous acts of complacency and a lack of standards at the platoon level," according to the report, obtained by the Houston Chronicle on Wednesday.


Lack of standards at the platoon level is squarely on the LT and the platoon sergeant. The company commander and/or 1SG might have a small role to play in that (by not properly inspecting their subordinate units). That's as far up the chain as such a matter could go.

gabosaurus
05-18-2007, 01:29 AM
Debacles such as the American torture camps (Gitmo et al) are not the working of non coms and lower commissioned. Things like this start at the top and are followed by the lower ranks.
American troops are trained to follow orders. The orders come down through the chain of command.

manu1959
05-18-2007, 02:02 AM
can anyone link me up to the chain of command accountabilty trials for the recent leadership failure for miss-planning al queda attacks which resulted in the deaths of several freedom fighters?

stephanie
05-18-2007, 03:20 AM
can anyone link me up to the chain of command accountability trials for the recent leadership failure for miss-planning al qaeda attacks which resulted in the deaths of several freedom fighters?


What do you expect.......?????
When they have more worries over a FREEDON FIGHTER, than our own military men and women????


Make me sick.....

darin
05-18-2007, 10:04 AM
Debacles such as the American torture camps (Gitmo et al) are not the working of non coms and lower commissioned. Things like this start at the top and are followed by the lower ranks.
American troops are trained to follow orders. The orders come down through the chain of command.

What a line of crap. Nothing you wrote there makes sense.

theHawk
05-18-2007, 10:42 AM
Debacles such as the American torture camps (Gitmo et al) are not the working of non coms and lower commissioned. Things like this start at the top and are followed by the lower ranks.
American troops are trained to follow orders. The orders come down through the chain of command.


LOL you're such a delusional idiot. You don't think people in the military ever disobey orders!??!! Anything bad they do MUST come from some higher up order? This is total nonesense, if you ever spent any time in the military you'd know there are a lot of young people that make stupid mistakes.
"Things like this start at the top and are followed by the lower ranks" --You know this how? Through your extensive experience in the military? Do yourself a favor and stop commenting on subjects you know ZERO about.

Psychoblues
06-03-2007, 04:38 AM
The usage and propensities for torture not only at Abu Graib but at countless facilities within and without Iraq are heavily documented.




LOL you're such a delusional idiot. You don't think people in the military ever disobey orders!??!! Anything bad they do MUST come from some higher up order? This is total nonesense, if you ever spent any time in the military you'd know there are a lot of young people that make stupid mistakes.
"Things like this start at the top and are followed by the lower ranks" --You know this how? Through your extensive experience in the military? Do yourself a favor and stop commenting on subjects you know ZERO about.

The very idea that our pResident would want to change established American war legislation and International Law to provide for it are indicative that the orders came from on high.

I suppose you have a stronger argument?

In the meantime, our very honest and compliant soldiers are serving time for crimes they were ordered to commit. Can you dig it?

Gaffer
06-03-2007, 08:41 AM
Psychoblues: The usage and propensities for torture not only at Abu Graib
but at countless facilities within and without Iraq are heavily documented.


Heavily documented where?

Gunny
06-04-2007, 09:47 PM
The military is good at placing the blame on non-coms and lower level officers. Fault rarely progresses too far up the chain of command.

You would be incorrect.

Gunny
06-04-2007, 09:57 PM
It's attitudes like dmp's that make this possible.

Substantiate your accusation. Gabby is repeating rumors, simple as that. What she said is factually incorrect.

We can discuss this. To start with, officers and senior enlisted are held to a MUCH higher standard than troops are. They are allowed to make mistakes. An officer or SNCO making a mistake of any import can just about kiss any career plans goodbye. Troops are routinely forgiven.

What you see in the MSM are troops accused of individual crimes that violate the law. Since each servicemember represents that law, unless it can be proven that seniors had any involvement in the crime, the blame for individual crime HAS TO fall on the individual.

What you DON'T see in the MSM are all the officers and SNCO's getting their asses chewed, or their careers ended for being held accountable for their leadership or lack thereof, and general conduct as leaders if they're screwing up.

Gunny
06-04-2007, 10:04 PM
Blame for military mistakes rarely makes it too far up the chain of command. The torture camp debacle is a good example. Orders concerned the methods used in the torture camps came straight from the Pentagon and the White House. It was the non-coms and lower echelon that got busted for it.
I bet Cheney is still laughing about the whole thing.

Please substantiate your allegation that orders cam from the Pentagon and White House.

The individual criminals who acted outside the UCMJ and Law of War are individually and collectively guilty for their crimes.

Unless you can produce a written order, or a verified confession to a verbal order, you have NO leg to stand on and your partisan belief unfounded.

The female General (I forget her name) was actually punished; although, not as severely as I would have like to have seen. But her career is DONE. Her punishment however, was for not being in control of her command. The individuals were punished for actually committing crimes.

Gunny
06-04-2007, 10:06 PM
Debacles such as the American torture camps (Gitmo et al) are not the working of non coms and lower commissioned. Things like this start at the top and are followed by the lower ranks.
American troops are trained to follow orders. The orders come down through the chain of command.

Again, you have NOTHING on which to substantiate you accusations.

eighballsidepocket
06-21-2007, 04:34 AM
I'm currently reading a book titled, "Abandon Ship".

It's about the tragic sinking and loss of over 900 naval lives on the USS Indianapolis, just a few months before the end of WW2. The Indianapolis was torpedoed by the I-58 Japanese submarine. The Indianapolis was traveling from Guam to Leyte, Phillipines, without any naval escort of destroyers or any other ships. It was alone when torpedoed.
http://www.ussindianapolis.org/
You may not know this, but the Indianapolis just days before had just delivered the top secret components of the Hiroshima A-Bomb to the Island of Tinian.
*****
I realize that many of the bonehead things that get front page news about the military doing something ethically wrong center around the lower rank folks, but the sinking of the cruiser U.S.S. Indianapolis is the story of unnecessary loss of hundreds of naval seamen, because the big Navy brass passed the perverbial "buck".

Indianapolis's crew floated out in the shark infested ocean for 4+ days without any attempted rescue. The ship was totally overlooked as to it's late arrival time in Leyte, as the our victorious U.S. Navy had instituted some very poor regulations concerning overseeing their combat ship's whereabouts/schedules etc.

The Navy, high brass pinned reprimands on lower ranking officers, and refursed to take responsibility for the lack of or lateness of rescue efforts that could have made the difference in saving several hundred more lives.

Of the roughly 900 men who successfully abandoned the Indianapolis, only 300 were rescued, because of major apathy and red tape by high up Naval folks.

A court marshal ensued and the Captain of the Indianapolis was found guilty, and was actually pardoned or had his Court Marshal removed just in the 1990's. The poor man, Captain McVay, unfortunately had commited suicide back in the 1940's, as his Naval career was ruined.

Anyway, if anyone is interested, just type into your favorite search engine, U.S.S. Indianapolis.

Also, if you can, try to read the book title, "Abandon Ship".
******
Please don't get the idea that I'm slamming our U.S. military, as I have the highest esteem for them and their sacrificial commitment to protect our country. :salute:

With all this "Get Mo" thrashing and other complaints, that I think are rather shallow and petty and political, I thought that I would bring up a bonafide problem that did awaken our military to some major deficiencies and the inability to admit causal responsibility or a grave mistake.:salute: