what are your thoughts on the Devil

[chloe]

People talk alot about God Atheists obviously don't believe in God and so it seems safe to assume there is no Devil either in an atheists view.


Do Agnostics also believe that it is possible there is a devil?

Do all Christians believe there IS a Devil and if so how is the devil working his evil in today's society?

[Noir]

I don't believe there is one, obviously.

But if there is the FairPlay to him, cus where it not for him i'm guessing i'd have no free will, which would be much less fun than i could even imagine.

[revelarts]

There are many Christians that believe that there is a Devil, I'm one. As the Bible describes him he's A fallen angel. not God's opposite in power or authority, and he doesn't rule over hell, he's going to be cast there for punishiment. Many other christians don't believe he's real at all. Some think of him more like an evil force rather and a demonic personal spirit .
What's he doing? wow uh, no good, to say the least. but the way the Bible describes him his main approach is simply lying people into false hopes, False hopes of various human satisfaction in ways that are not God's chosen ways for us to satisfy our needs. After that it seems, from time to time, he's allowed to bring different kinds of disasters against people.
Frankly the very idea that God allows a "devil" i dont understand. the closet i get to is is from one Jesus's parable's where he tell of a farmer -God- who sows some wheat but some weeds grow up in the field as well, the workers ask the farmer if he wants them to take up the weeds. the farmer says no because if you do that you'll kill some of the wheat as well. "let them grow up together and at the harvest well cut everything down and bring the wheat into my barn and the weeds will go into the fire."

[chloe]

There are many Christians that believe that there is a Devil, I'm one. As the Bible describes him he's A fallen angel. not God's opposite in power or authority, and he doesn't rule over hell, he's going to be cast there for punishiment. Many other christians don't believe he's real at all. Some think of him more like an evil force rather and a demonic personal spirit .
What's he doing? wow uh, no good, to say the least. but the way the Bible describes him his main approach is simply lying people into false hopes, False hopes of various human satisfaction in ways that are not God's chosen ways for us to satisfy our needs. After that it seems, from time to time, he's allowed to bring different kinds of disasters against people.
Frankly the very idea that God allows a "devil" i dont understand. the closet i get to is is from one Jesus's parable's where he tell of a farmer -God- who sows some wheat but some weeds grow up in the field as well, the workers ask the farmer if he wants them to take up the weeds. the farmer says no because if you do that you'll kill some of the wheat as well. "let them grow up together and at the harvest well cut everything down and bring the wheat into my barn and the weeds will go into the fire."

That is really interesting.

People always focus on God even atheists are really into debating God rarely does the Devil topic ever come up on the messageboards for debate, yet if people believe the devil is the king of lies and the source of temptation it seems to be we soyuld be talking more about the devil and what is happening in regards to his deeds.

[Thunderknuckles]

I'm in the process of sin at the moment and cannot respond yet but I will be back :)

[chloe]

I'm in the process of sin at the moment and cannot respond yet but I will be back :)


Mercy !!! :laugh2:

[fj1200]

the closet i get to is is from one Jesus's parable's where he tell of a farmer -God- who sows some wheat but some weeds grow up in the field as well, the workers ask the farmer if he wants them to take up the weeds.

What about the parable of the poor beggar (Lazarus?) and the rich man who ignored him. At death Lazarus sat with Abraham in heaven looking down on the rich man in hell while the rich man begged to tell his family to not make the same mistake that he did in ignoring the poor; Luke I think.

[Jess]

Perhaps the "devil" is a manifestation of evil that is around us - just personified so our minds can comprehend? I dunno.

Obviously, there is evil/bad/wrong inherent in most people. Some give it free rein and embrace it, while others fight it their whole life. Is it the devil or just human nature?

[chloe]

Perhaps the "devil" is a manifestation of evil that is around us - just personified so our minds can comprehend? I dunno.

Obviously, there is evil/bad/wrong inherent in most people. Some give it free rein and embrace it, while others fight it their whole life. Is it the devil or just human nature?

Do you believe in God and if so do you beieve in the opposite a Devil?

Or are you not really religious.

[Jess]

Do you believe in God and if so do you beieve in the opposite a Devil?

Or are you not really religious.

I was raised extremely, very straight-laced independent Baptist. Went to a private, religious school and we were in church every time the doors were open, as they say.

As I've gotten older and thought about it on my own - without just accepting everything that I was told was THE truth - I realize that the church/organized religion needs me(us as individuals) a whole lot more than I(we) need the church.

I do believe there is a God but my belief/faith is between He and I and has nothing to do with a bunch of people that I know to be judgmental, holier-than-thou hypocrites.

The Devil? Hmmm ... one would suppose that there must be balance, there should be a devil to counter-act God, right? I don't know. There are many, many things that I haven't puzzled out yet. ;)

[chloe]

I was raised extremely, very straight-laced independent Baptist. Went to a private, religious school and we were in church every time the doors were open, as they say.

As I've gotten older and thought about it on my own - without just accepting everything that I was told was THE truth - I realize that the church/organized religion needs me(us as individuals) a whole lot more than I(we) need the church.

I do believe there is a God but my belief/faith is between He and I and has nothing to do with a bunch of people that I know to be judgmental, holier-than-thou hypocrites.

The Devil? Hmmm ... one would suppose that there must be balance, there should be a devil to counter-act God, right? I don't know. There are many, many things that I haven't puzzled out yet. ;)

I find it interesting that God is blamed when things don't go right but nobody blames the Devil, and that is why I asked about peoples belief in the devil.

If the devil is supposed to be real my understnading is he is the king of liars, makes false accusations on good people and basically wreaks havoc on the lives of people to lose there fiath in God.

Although I could misunderstand the concept since I was not raised christian.

[Jess]

I find it interesting that God is blamed when things don't go right but nobody blames the Devil, and that is why I asked about peoples belief in the devil.

If the devil is supposed to be real my understnading is he is the king of liars, makes false accusations on good people and basically wreaks havoc on the lives of people to lose there fiath in God.

Although I could misunderstand the concept since I was not raised christian.

The way I was raised, the devil got blamed for everything bad. God got credit for the good stuff and if it wasn't really bad but wasn't good either, it was just "God works in mysterious ways and we can't understand it."

But then again, I've seen a lot of double-standards in the things I was taught over the years.

[chloe]

The way I was raised, the devil got blamed for everything bad. God got credit for the good stuff and if it wasn't really bad but wasn't good either, it was just "God works in mysterious ways and we can't understand it."

But then again, I've seen a lot of double-standards in the things I was taught over the years.

Thanks for the clarification.

The online political messsage boards that I have been reading since 2008 only talk about God , I don't think I ever hear debate about the devil, he must get a free pass in thought:laugh2:

[Jess]

Thanks for the clarification.

The online political messsage boards that I have been reading since 2008 only talk about God , I don't think I ever hear debate about the devil, he must get a free pass in thought:laugh2:

You're right - you don't normally see debate about the devil.

Some of the best debates or discussions on God and religion have been with atheists/non-theists. Not the militant, fanatical ones though. You can't talk to them. They're just like the religious fanatics, except on the other end of the spectrum.The anti-religious fanatics. :laugh:

[chloe]

You're right - you don't normally see debate about the devil.

Some of the best debates or discussions on God and religion have been with atheists/non-theists. Not the militant, fanatical ones though. You can't talk to them. They're just like the religious fanatics, except on the other end of the spectrum.The anti-religious fanatics. :laugh:

:laugh2: True true !!!

[Abbey Marie]

Look at any interview of Charles Manson. Whatever is behind his eyes is not of this world.

[bullypulpit]

The devil is in the details.

[bullypulpit]

People talk alot about God Atheists obviously don't believe in God and so it seems safe to assume there is no Devil either in an atheists view.


Do Agnostics also believe that it is possible there is a devil?

Do all Christians believe there IS a Devil and if so how is the devil working his evil in today's society?

The evil that men do is sufficient unto itself, and requires no outside influence.

[Gunny]

People talk alot about God Atheists obviously don't believe in God and so it seems safe to assume there is no Devil either in an atheists view.


Do Agnostics also believe that it is possible there is a devil?

Do all Christians believe there IS a Devil and if so how is the devil working his evil in today's society?

Sure he exists. Currently, he sits around pulling leftwingnuts' strings to make their jaws flap, then rolls on the floor laughing his ass off at what fools he's made them make of themselves.

His current "lair" apparently is the White House.

[revelarts]

What about the parable of the poor beggar (Lazarus?) and the rich man who ignored him. At death Lazarus sat with Abraham in heaven looking down on the rich man in hell while the rich man begged to tell his family to not make the same mistake that he did in ignoring the poor; Luke I think.

I'm not sure what your getting at, concerning Satan here FJ.
But here's the parable your talking about:

Luke 16
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Seems this parables main punch is at the end. That people should have believed Moses and the prophets and even after someone has risen from the dead many still won't believe in God. He was taking about himself rising from the dead of course.
What some seem to want to take away from it 1st though is an idea that the MAIN thing is treating the poor well. Well yes we should treat the poor well. But Moses and the prophets never said that forgiveness of sins and Heaven came from treating the poor well, that's , in a sense, extra credit. The sacrifices are what absolved the person of sins. And if one really believed in the efficacy of the sacrifice you SHOULD BE following though on the treating your neighbor, rich and poor, with love as well. None of us are perfect and there's no amount of giving to the poor that will help one escape from "hades" without the washing away of the rest of our sins. the great thing is it's done and free to all.
This is what seems to come across clearly when looking at the whole of Jesus's and scriptures teaching. Inspite of this many/most people seem to think that somehow their good works (or intentions) are going to "outweigh" their bad. But if we think of God's Standard of good for 5 minutes most of us will realize, if we're honest, that we're in a heap a trouble. But here's the cool thing,
John1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming to him and said, Look! There is the Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world!

However their are those that disagree, and don't believe Moses and Prophets like John the Baptist there.

[Gunny]

I'm not sure what your getting at, concerning Satan here FJ.
But here's the parable your talking about:

Luke 16
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Seems this parables main punch is at the end. That people should have believed Moses and the prophets and even after someone has risen from the dead many still won't believe in God. He was taking about himself rising from the dead of course.
What some seem to want to take away from it 1st though is an idea that the MAIN thing is treating the poor well. Well yes we should treat the poor well. But Moses and the prophets never said that forgiveness of sins and Heaven came from treating the poor well, that's , in a sense, extra credit. The sacrifices are what absolved the person of sins. And if one really believed in the efficacy of the sacrifice you SHOULD BE following though on the treating your neighbor, rich and poor, with love as well. None of us are perfect and there's no amount of giving to the poor that will help one escape from "hades" without the washing away of the rest of our sins. the great thing is it's done and free to all.
This is what seems to come across clearly when looking at the whole of Jesus's and scriptures teaching. Inspite of this many/most people seem to think that somehow their good works (or intentions) are going to "outweigh" their bad. But if we think of God's Standard of good for 5 minutes most of us will realize, if we're honest, that we're in a heap a trouble. But here's the cool thing,
John1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming to him and said, Look! There is the Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world!

However their are those that disagree, and don't believe Moses and Prophets like John the Baptist there.

Another "War and Peace" novel, REV?

Here's one for you:

Matthew 10:14 - And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

You waste your breath.

[fj1200]

I'm not sure what your getting at, concerning Satan here FJ.
But here's the parable your talking about:

Just that I thought that there was another reference to the devil but it only appears to reference hell.

[ConHog]

*spoiler alert*


The devil loses.

[avatar4321]

I tend not to think have any thoughts on him. He usually isn't on my mind.

I am, however, aware of his influence.

[Gunny]

I tend not to think have any thoughts on him. He usually isn't on my mind.

I am, however, aware of his influence.

Want to try again? The dumbest thing you can do is pretend your enemy doesn't exist.

[darin]

I find it interesting that God is blamed when things don't go right but nobody blames the Devil, and that is why I asked about peoples belief in the devil.

If the devil is supposed to be real my understnading is he is the king of liars, makes false accusations on good people and basically wreaks havoc on the lives of people to lose there fiath in God.

Although I could misunderstand the concept since I was not raised christian.

Part of the issue is one of (lack of) perspective.

Good? Bad? What's a good thing that happens? What's a bad thing? Winning Powerball - good or bad? Good and Bad are often defined only through hindsight.

I'm fairly certain the stature/power/etc of the Devil are maintained primarly as a threat to people. The whole "do good, and god will reward you. Do bad, and you will be punished" seems to absolutely fly in the face of things Christ spoke-of. Namely, Grace. I'm confused frequently by the focus of the Church. The church warns against things it calls sin because those things may affect our eternal soul - yet to an item, 'sin' hurts our physical, natural life. It's from earthly perils God saves us by asking us to avoid certain behavior. And, if our eternal souls were ultimately the issue, Why would the Devil spend his time hurting our natural, physical life - why not come after us after we've passed to the other existence?

More questions than answers - i know. :(

Good thread.

[Nukeman]

Want to try again? The dumbest thing you can do is pretend your enemy doesn't exist.
I think yo misread what he was saying.

the way I look at it is if you give thought to the devil you give it strength. To deny it anyplace in your heart or mind is to deny it any power over you. that is what I think Avatar was attempting to say.

its not a matter of "pretending" it doesn't exist, its about enabling the evil by giving it thought or recognition.

don't get me wrong I am not saying to not register that evil is done but..

[darin]

I think yo misread what he was saying.

the way I look at it is if you give thought to the devil you give it strength. To deny it anyplace in your heart or mind is to deny it any power over you. that is what I think Avatar was attempting to say.

its not a matter of "pretending" it doesn't exist, its about enabling the evil by giving it thought or recognition.

don't get me wrong I am not saying to not register that evil is done but..

absolutely. I suppose I don't really CARE if "the devil made people do something evil" because the bad part is the 'evil, done' not the motivating factor. The evil in the world is the problem - a problem not going away soon. The impetus is one of which I have no control, factor. I cling to my beliefs and desire to conduct myself in a way contrary to evil. Make sense?

[chloe]

So the devil is the king of liars but charismatic and charming otherwise nobody would follow the lead of evil doing.

[ConHog]

3242

[chloe]

absolutely. I suppose I don't really CARE if "the devil made people do something evil" because the bad part is the 'evil, done' not the motivating factor. The evil in the world is the problem - a problem not going away soon. The impetus is one of which I have no control, factor. I cling to my beliefs and desire to conduct myself in a way contrary to evil. Make sense?

Do you think prayer helps a person at all to undo the influence of evil and the devil?

If everyone has free will but they don't want to give in to temptation does God help out?

What if people do evil acts and then repent they are just forgiven?

[Gunny]

Part of the issue is one of (lack of) perspective.

Good? Bad? What's a good thing that happens? What's a bad thing? Winning Powerball - good or bad? Good and Bad are often defined only through hindsight.

I'm fairly certain the stature/power/etc of the Devil are maintained primarly as a threat to people. The whole "do good, and god will reward you. Do bad, and you will be punished" seems to absolutely fly in the face of things Christ spoke-of. Namely, Grace. I'm confused frequently by the focus of the Church. The church warns against things it calls sin because those things may affect our eternal soul - yet to an item, 'sin' hurts our physical, natural life. It's from earthly perils God saves us by asking us to avoid certain behavior. And, if our eternal souls were ultimately the issue, Why would the Devil spend his time hurting our natural, physical life - why not come after us after we've passed to the other existence?

More questions than answers - i know. :(

Good thread.

Depends on your perspective. When it's self-serving and self-ego-booting isn't doesn't amount to shit. Especially when you start playing on the firendship of others.

[darin]

Do you think prayer helps a person at all to undo the influence of evil and the devil?

Absolutely. So does the desire to do good. Selflessness rules the day. As an example, most of the time anyway, love, as we know it, is entirely self-serving. We love folks for how they make us FEEL, when boiled down to the roots. For instance, let's say sometimes Gunny pisses me off like no other; do I 'hate' him all of a sudden, when I used to like him - simply based on a few moments in time? Do I now write him off forever because he hurt me, (hurt me - self serving, see?) or offended me? Or - do I continue to be his e-friend despite the instances around whatever pain I felt? When I'm MOST hurting; feeling most-hurt by somebody, the cure is often to shift my focus off my pain, and onto my efforts to serve another. To shift my efforts/mood/etc, from 'me' to 'others'.

Thus, to the question - when I focus on doing Good. When I focus on 'goodness' - through prayer, meditation, etc - the bad/evil minimizes. Biblically, my actions are completely and ultimately determined by what's in my heart- the MOTIVATION. So - if prayer can keep my motivations (motivations for every action) pure as can be, I'll avoid negative/evil influence, or at least be more-able to withstand the same. Make sense?



If everyone has free will but they don't want to give in to temptation does God help out?

The bible tells us God helps us resist. But - nobody does ANYTHING by pure force. We all, ultimately, decide our actions/attitudes. When my wife forgets - for the umpteenth-time - to put the toilet seat back up, it's easy to say "You (wife) made me so MAD!". Shifting the blame of MY reaction to HER action, when the absolute truth is, I'm responsible for how I react. Think about what may have made me mad: "How DARE she forget! I mean, I DESERVE to have the toilet seat up! Right? I mean!! The GALL!" etc, ad nauseam.

Here's the kicker - in relation to God, etc. If we succumb to the temptation to do evil (because the evil FEELS good, etc), God promptly doesn't care about the action - He's more concerned with the hole in our heart that made that sin so appealing to us.



What if people do evil acts and then repent they are just forgiven?

Quite honestly, that's up to God. The only purpose of God's forgiveness, ultimately, is his restoration; saving us from the damage the sin can/will cause OUR lives. No skin off God's nose. Make sense?

My 2¢

[pete311]

the concept of a devil is childish superstition. nothing more than fear tactics. even if there was, it's comical how much people just make up on their own. the Bible has few direct references to the devil, nothing is really described and yet people banter how he is this and how is that. furthermore the Bible was written by normal men who had no more idea than any of you.

anywho, according to these lines, the vast majority will be going to Hell anyway


Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/1 Corinthians 6.9-10))
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Galatians 5.19-21))
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Revelation 21.8))

[ConHog]

the concept of a devil is childish superstition. nothing more than fear tactics. even if there was, it's comical how much people just make up on their own. the Bible has few direct references to the devil, nothing is really described and yet people banter how he is this and how is that. furthermore the Bible was written by normal men who had no more idea than any of you.

anywho, according to these lines, the vast majority will be going to Hell anyway

you are correct, the vast majority of people will be going to hell.

As for the devil, how anyone could see all the evil in the world and not concede that there is an evil presence orchestrating it is beyond me.

[Abbey Marie]

the concept of a devil is childish superstition. nothing more than fear tactics. even if there was, it's comical how much people just make up on their own. the Bible has few direct references to the devil, nothing is really described and yet people banter how he is this and how is that. furthermore the Bible was written by normal men who had no more idea than any of you.

anywho, according to these lines, the vast majority will be going to Hell anyway

So, Pete, are you back from the dead?

[gabosaurus]

If you believe in the concept of God, then obviously you believe in the concept of Satan. The struggle between "good" and "evil" is a constant among life.

[pete311]

you are correct, the vast majority of people will be going to hell.

As for the devil, how anyone could see all the evil in the world and not concede that there is an evil presence orchestrating it is beyond me.

The human world is full of brutality, but most of it is easy to understand why it happens and why people do what they do. It is not hard to understand the motivations of a dictator once you see his upbringing, personality and available opportunities. Nor any less a mystery of why serial rapists do what they do.


If you believe in the concept of God, then obviously you believe in the concept of Satan. The struggle between "good" and "evil" is a constant among life.

the terms "good" and "evil" are subjective words created by man. life is life. it has no affinity towards either. the struggle between "good" and "evil" exist only in fairy tales and Disney movies. please give me some examples.

[chloe]

Absolutely. So does the desire to do good. Selflessness rules the day. As an example, most of the time anyway, love, as we know it, is entirely self-serving. We love folks for how they make us FEEL, when boiled down to the roots. For instance, let's say sometimes Gunny pisses me off like no other; do I 'hate' him all of a sudden, when I used to like him - simply based on a few moments in time? Do I now write him off forever because he hurt me, (hurt me - self serving, see?) or offended me? Or - do I continue to be his e-friend despite the instances around whatever pain I felt? When I'm MOST hurting; feeling most-hurt by somebody, the cure is often to shift my focus off my pain, and onto my efforts to serve another. To shift my efforts/mood/etc, from 'me' to 'others'.

Thus, to the question - when I focus on doing Good. When I focus on 'goodness' - through prayer, meditation, etc - the bad/evil minimizes. Biblically, my actions are completely and ultimately determined by what's in my heart- the MOTIVATION. So - if prayer can keep my motivations (motivations for every action) pure as can be, I'll avoid negative/evil influence, or at least be more-able to withstand the same. Make sense?



The bible tells us God helps us resist. But - nobody does ANYTHING by pure force. We all, ultimately, decide our actions/attitudes. When my wife forgets - for the umpteenth-time - to put the toilet seat back up, it's easy to say "You (wife) made me so MAD!". Shifting the blame of MY reaction to HER action, when the absolute truth is, I'm responsible for how I react. Think about what may have made me mad: "How DARE she forget! I mean, I DESERVE to have the toilet seat up! Right? I mean!! The GALL!" etc, ad nauseam.

Here's the kicker - in relation to God, etc. If we succumb to the temptation to do evil (because the evil FEELS good, etc), God promptly doesn't care about the action - He's more concerned with the hole in our heart that made that sin so appealing to us.



Quite honestly, that's up to God. The only purpose of God's forgiveness, ultimately, is his restoration; saving us from the damage the sin can/will cause OUR lives. No skin off God's nose. Make sense?

My 2¢

Yes all of that makes sense DMP. You have a great way of explaining things just like your brother !

but let's say Gunny did something more serious like molested your child. While you might somehow manage to find a way to forgive him you aren't about to ask him to babysit.

I mean some sins effect people forever and even if you can move past it, you don't go trusting people who don't want to reform even if you forgive them.

As far as someone merely offending or hurting your feelings sure I see your point.

If someone was merely an aquaintance and I had no problem with them prior I can forgive a slight unless I see a pattern then usually I just avoid them as to not have to keep repeating the same cycle with them.

If your house is on fire you don't sit inside the house while it's burning and pray that it won't be on fire you get out of the house and pray everyone is safe right?

I believe I have encountered true evil people in my lifetime and it's been a lifelong question inside myself to wonder if God is real and if so why do people that feel God failed them never hold the Devil accountable why does God get blamed is that just anohter hypnotic suggestion or projection on the devils part?

[pete311]

I mean some sins effect people forever and even if you can move past it, you don't go trusting people who don't want to reform even if you forgive them.

As far as someone merely offending or hurting your feelings sure I see your point.


Folks who believe in absolute forgiveness lack the imagination necessary to truly test their principle. It would take me just 10 seconds to explain a scenario in which not even the Dali Lama could forgive.




I believe I have encountered true evil people in my lifetime and it's been a lifelong question inside myself to wonder if God is real and if so why do people that feel God failed them never hold the Devil accountable why does God get blamed is that just anohter hypnotic suggestion or projection on the devils part?

"Good" and "Evil" are fantasy terms. You simply met people who developed poorly as people. I am willing to bet they had low education, bad parenting and perhaps some mental illness. No fantasy labels are needed for an explanation.

[chloe]

Folks who believe in absolute forgiveness lack the imagination necessary to truly test their principle. It would take me just 10 seconds to explain a scenario in which not even the Dali Lama could forgive.




"Good" and "Evil" are fantasy terms. You simply met people who developed poorly as people. I am willing to bet they had low education, bad parenting and perhaps some mental illness. No fantasy labels are needed for an explanation.

Thanks Pete

No disrespect but my question really is to people that believe in God and in the Devil.

Buddhism really does not fall into what I am asking about but thank you anyway. :salute:

[cadet]

just throwing in my opinion,

no one mentioned that God and the devil are not equals. If you were to compare the two, it'd be more like Gabriel and Lucifer.
And of course, God's the stronger one.
but remember, to ignore the devils existence is his greatest weapon, if he were to start moving stuff around and shooting fire at you, you might start praying. this way he's got the upper hand.
Now, obviously i don't blame the devil for all evil, we're human, but there's quite a bit he's helped cause.

[chloe]

just throwing in my opinion,

no one mentioned that God and the devil are not equals. If you were to compare the two, it'd be more like Gabriel and Lucifer.
And of course, God's the stronger one.
but remember, to ignore the devils existence is his greatest weapon, if he were to start moving stuff around and shooting fire at you, you might start praying. this way he's got the upper hand.
Now, obviously i don't blame the devil for all evil, we're human, but there's quite a bit he's helped cause.

But when things go wrong do you blame God and ask why or do you blame the Devil for getting a hold of you or someone else?

[cadet]

But when things go wrong do you blame God and ask why or do you blame the Devil for getting a hold of you or someone else?

I blame myself, and try to do better next time.

[chloe]

I tend not to think have any thoughts on him. He usually isn't on my mind.

I am, however, aware of his influence.


Elder Marion G. Romney, who, at a Brigham Young University devotional in 1955, stated: “Now there are those among us who are trying to serve the Lord without offending the devil.” This is a contradiction in terms. Elder Romney goes on: “Must the choice lie irrevocably between peace on the one hand, obtained by compliance with the Gospel of Jesus Christ as restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith, and contention and war on the other hand?”

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d 82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=c31c226fecfdb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

[SassyLady]

Why does one have to believe in Satan if they believe in God? Not all people base their belief in God/Creator/Source, etc. on the Bible. So, to state that if one believes in God, one must believe in Satan, or vice versa, is so limiting.

I wrote a couple of papers for college about my spiritual beliefs. They were graded by a nun (Jesuit college, so would have been a nun or priest) who asked how could I believe in an afterlife (premise of one paper) if I didn't believe in heaven or hell (premise of second paper). I was allowed a rebuttal and asked her why the two beliefs can't coexist; assuming of course that she wasn't supposed to let her belief system influence her grading. Instead of 4 credits for each paper, I was given 6 for each (the max).

Free will is just that ... the free will to believe what one wants to believe. I believe I was given free will to use my mind and to make conclusions based upon what I've learned and experienced, not what my peers or the majority are saying I should believe. My beliefs have evolved and have not always followed the same line of reasoning; however the base line has always been that every soul knows the difference between right and wrong. Upon that foundation, each and every day, each and every action we make will take us down a path to the next fork in the road.

Sometimes, without even knowing it, we may have set in motion something "good" or something "bad/evil". Something as innocent as leaving the iron plugged in.....there's a tiny little earthquake and the iron falls over and the house burns down. Was the person doing the ironing "bad/evil"? Did satan/devil make it all happen by distracting the person, causing the earthquake...for not having smoke alarms installed, for not having a sprinkler system installed.....the list goes on and on and on. Why would anyone want to exhaust themselves thinking about where satan/devil is influencing something?

Stuff happens because of the decisions/choices we make...and they aren't always going to lead to positive conclusions/results. That is part of experiencing life.

PS....do I pray? Not in the usual sense of asking for something....my prayers are always saying Thank You for what I'm experiencing.

[bullypulpit]

the concept of a devil is childish superstition. nothing more than fear tactics. even if there was, it's comical how much people just make up on their own. the Bible has few direct references to the devil, nothing is really described and yet people banter how he is this and how is that. furthermore the Bible was written by normal men who had no more idea than any of you.

anywho, according to these lines, the vast majority will be going to Hell anyway

As I've said before, religion is nothing more than the magical thinking of children run amok in the hands of adults.

[darin]

Yes all of that makes sense DMP. You have a great way of explaining things just like your brother !

but let's say Gunny did something more serious like molested your child. While you might somehow manage to find a way to forgive him you aren't about to ask him to babysit.


Right.



I mean some sins effect people forever and even if you can move past it, you don't go trusting people who don't want to reform even if you forgive them.

Probably the major reason ANY sin is called 'sin', IMO.



As far as someone merely offending or hurting your feelings sure I see your point.

If someone was merely an aquaintance and I had no problem with them prior I can forgive a slight unless I see a pattern then usually I just avoid them as to not have to keep repeating the same cycle with them.

If your house is on fire you don't sit inside the house while it's burning and pray that it won't be on fire you get out of the house and pray everyone is safe right?

I believe I have encountered true evil people in my lifetime and it's been a lifelong question inside myself to wonder if God is real and if so why do people that feel God failed them never hold the Devil accountable why does God get blamed is that just anohter hypnotic suggestion or projection on the devils part?

People desire to blame. Blame for success and blame for failure. We're sheep, hon. :(

[fj1200]

As I've said before, religion is nothing more than the magical thinking of children run amok in the hands of adults.

Thank you for reiterating, very deep thinking.

[chloe]

Why does one have to believe in Satan if they believe in God? Not all people base their belief in God/Creator/Source, etc. on the Bible. So, to state that if one believes in God, one must believe in Satan, or vice versa, is so limiting.

.

They don't but I have read plenty of thoughts and beliefs where people don't believe in the Devil, I am more interested in learning what people who do believe in the devil or evil think about him as opposed to God.


I do not encounter anyone talking about it.

[Gunny]

Part of the issue is one of (lack of) perspective.

Good? Bad? What's a good thing that happens? What's a bad thing? Winning Powerball - good or bad? Good and Bad are often defined only through hindsight.

I'm fairly certain the stature/power/etc of the Devil are maintained primarly as a threat to people. The whole "do good, and god will reward you. Do bad, and you will be punished" seems to absolutely fly in the face of things Christ spoke-of. Namely, Grace. I'm confused frequently by the focus of the Church. The church warns against things it calls sin because those things may affect our eternal soul - yet to an item, 'sin' hurts our physical, natural life. It's from earthly perils God saves us by asking us to avoid certain behavior. And, if our eternal souls were ultimately the issue, Why would the Devil spend his time hurting our natural, physical life - why not come after us after we've passed to the other existence?

More questions than answers - i know. :(

Good thread.

When you can't figure out the difference between good and bad, you lost already.

[darin]

When you can't figure out the difference between good and bad, you lost already.

Basic training sure FELT bad. In the end, it was a GREAT decision. My point is, sometimes things seem terrible in the moment, only to end up being the 'right choice'. Of course, vice-versa is true as well.

[SassyLady]

People talk alot about God Atheists obviously don't believe in God and so it seems safe to assume there is no Devil either in an atheists view.Do Agnostics also believe that it is possible there is a devil?Do all Christians believe there IS a Devil and if so how is the devil working his evil in today's society?More clarity for Chloe specifically regarding her question.I don't believe there is an entity called the devil..I believe the concept is used as a metaphor to control and excuse.

[ConHog]

More clarity for Chloe specifically regarding her question.I don't believe there is an entity called the devil..I believe the concept is used as a metaphor to control and excuse.

See, I believe there IS a devil, and he's whispering in your ear that he doesn't exist. So much easier for him to corrupt you , and everyone else, who simply doesn't believe there is a he to be doing so.

[SassyLady]

See, I believe there IS a devil, and he's whispering in your ear that he doesn't exist. So much easier for him to corrupt you , and everyone else, who simply doesn't believe there is a he to be doing so.So sad that you cannot accept that humans are making those choices and decisions on their own...blame anyone and anything rather than taking personal responsibility?

[ConHog]

So sad that you cannot accept that humans are making those choices and decisions on their own...blame anyone and anything rather than taking personal responsibility?

No ma'am. The devil certainly can't make you do anything, and actually neither can God because He has in fact given us free will. I suppose He COULD take that away from us, but that's unlikely. So no the devil made me do it, isn't actually saying the devil forced a person to do anything, its merely saying the devil influenced the choice, and yes I think he does exactly that.

[chloe]

More clarity for Chloe specifically regarding her question.I don't believe there is an entity called the devil..I believe the concept is used as a metaphor to control and excuse.

Thanks Sassylady, I actually understood what you were saying.

I am "interested" in people who DO believe in a Devil who is trying to permeate evil, and I wondered what there thoughts were about that devil and his evil acts seen in todays world.

I know alot of buddhists and unitarians are much more abstract.

I was raised in metaphysics so I grasp the abstract and metaphorical "devil" quite well.

However, I would like to hear more from people that believe there is a devil or evil presence that they have to literally war against.

[SassyLady]

Well, that definitely leaves me out of the conversation. Conhog sounds like he's had some personal experience, though. You guys have fun.

[chloe]

Well, that definitely leaves me out of the conversation. Conhog sounds like he's had some personal experience, though. You guys have fun.

sounds like Gunny has too thanks:salute:

[MtnBiker]

what are your thoughts on the Devil

Well, I believe a few months ago the devil ripped a big juicy one. He thought his flatulence had a musical quality to it, so he set it free to our realm to become a new member on the board to continue to spread a stench from hell.

[Toro]

I'm not a fan, but he does make some good music.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsmcDLDw9iw

[Dilloduck]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBecM3CQVD8