The 27% problem

[loosecannon]

Left in complete darkness we will infer patterns and causalities. Left there a little longer, we will invent Gods and angels and a retinue of ritual that must be performed to keep our deities happy.

Left longer still and we’ll start killing each other over the imaginary differences among our make-believe Olympians.

Now none of that is a particularly new or revolutionary observation, but instead a reminder that, in the absence of explanation, people will invent reasons. When those reasons are untestable, we call it faith; when those reasons always reliably follow the channels cut by our prejudices or ignorance, we call it bigotry; when the reasons can be tested, confirmed, retested and reconfirmed, we call it science.

Reasons can run the gamut from “She’s just not that into you” to “Oh, I see; he’s a moron” to “Because light travels at 300,000 kps everywhere”, but they are always there.

They may not be to our liking – a failing heart valve, adultery, alcoholism and bribery, for example, have each been the reason for some of the more unhappy (or at least disquieting) events in my life – but reasons are always there. And from crossword puzzles solutions to some tangly international policy, as maddening or hard to face as the ultimate answer may be, I personally get a beat of satisfaction – almost a physical sense of “ahhhh” deep in my chest -- when the answer finally falls into place.

The darkness does not care either way.

Now consider a few plugs of journalistic chaw plucked out of the Pundit ether (emphasis added):

First, from The Chris Matthews Show


…

Ms. KAY: The other problem for Republicans is, you start criticizing the president too strongly and it can be counterproductive. Because so many people in the country still have--the majority have a reverence for the office of the president, and where as much they don't like...

GREGORY: And 75 percent of conservatives still back him.

Ms. KAY: Still support President Bush.

Ms. TUCKER: Well, yes.

Mr. STENGEL: Are you--as long as you don't criticize the office and you criticize the execution, that's fine.

Ms. KAY: Yeah. It's a fine line to walk, because if you start criticizing Bush too much, you will be seen by some Republicans as criticizing the president.

Mr. STENGEL: There are people defending the presidency. There's almost no one defending Bush.

Ms. TUCKER: Just this week, the Republican governor of Georgia was on the radio saying, `You ought to shut up about the war.' He is part of that base. The Republican presidential candidates' problem is not just the war, their biggest problem is their base. Their base still overwhelmingly supports the war, doesn't want to hear much criticism of the president. And they are--and Rudy Giuliani's problem, of course, is that they're strictly anti-abortion.

MATTHEWS: Yeah.

Ms. TUCKER: And they're a group of people who are impervious to the facts, just like George Bush is.

…


Ms. Tucker has just laid her finger directly on one of the two most important stories of our time; that a mass of the American public (27% of the population? 75% of the GOP? A horde perhaps the size of modern Germany?) aren’t simply mistaken or misunderstood or misled by villainous men.

They are unfit citizens. They are Bad Americans.

They are the evil gift that keeps on giving. The residue of centuries of impacted racism, Dominionism, homophobia and assorted other spices, set ablaze but to warm the electoral ambition of everyone from George Wallace to George Bush.

They are pandered to and flattered by Fox teevee and Hate Radio, and they are all gathered conspicuously together under the same political banner.

There is finally no other explanation that will bear the weight of the fact of the short, catastrophic arc of the Bush Administration and the longer, brutal malevolence of the 30 Year Long March of the Wingnut GOP.

The good men have long since fled the Party. The barely adequate men have fled the Party.

Hell, anyone who can swirl a shotglass-full of synapses and not come up with “Commie fem’nazi queers” as the punchline to every joke and the answer to every question has fled the Party.

The honest answer to the question raised by Frank Luntz – “Why do Republicans keep winning if their candidates are so shitty?” – is that the GOP base is morally subhuman at a deep and probably incurable level.

That selling fascism to brownshirts and racism to intractable bigots is like any other kind of narcotics trafficking. Like selling hillbilly heroin to Limbaugh. Users are not necessarily going to score out loud and in public, but they don't exactly need a whole lotta persuasion to get them to buy and mainline the lethal shit the Right is slinging.

Luntz’s “solution” is the most recent GOP Talking Point being handed around the Conservative Pundit glory holes as eagerly as Hillary snuff porn anime: That Liberals need to stop being so “angry”.

When your party is led by outright lunatics and liars, traitors and thieves…

When after thirty years your base can only take nourishment suckling on the poison that oozes from Cheney’s bile sacs, Coulter’s fangs, Hannity’s tongue, O’Reilly’s wheezing pores, Falwell’s ingrown soul…

When your official cult house organs have been spewing raw hatred it the noosphere for thiry years…

...and your advice is that the other side who have finally had it with playing nice with these moral locusts are” too angry”?

It boggles the mind.

But then again, Luntz isn’t stupid; he knows perfectly well that he serves evil. He simply doesn’t care. Selling out his country is a good buck, and as an obedient whore he will form his mouth to say whatever it is his paymasters wish him to say.

However this is the problem:

What do you do when 1/4 of the people in your country are the enemy of your country?

We cannot be a United State when 1/4 of the nation does not believe in Uniting. When they believe only in capitulation and conquest.

When their point-of-view – their superstitious, eliminationist, Hate Radio-barbered point-of-view – is impervious to reason, compassion or mercy,

Because while they may not possess the basic cognitive and empathic functions the Good Lord saw fit to endow flatworms with, they do stomp and scream and vote, and it is high time – long past time – to start speaking of the 27% that props up the GOP as The Problem.

A Problem every bit as destructive as global warming, and that requires every bit as much of a sea-change in attitude and a generational perspective.

Part one of three

http://driftglass.blogspot.com/2007/05/27-problem_4917.html

[nevadamedic]

Part one of three

http://driftglass.blogspot.com/2007/05/27-problem_4917.html

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

[avatar4321]

So Republicans are enemies of this nation now? For wanting to actually prevent it and keep our way of life? that makes so much sense.

[nevadamedic]

So Republicans are enemies of this nation now? For wanting to actually prevent it and keep our way of life? that makes so much sense.

Well look who started this thread, what do you expect?

[musicman]

Part one of three

http://driftglass.blogspot.com/2007/05/27-problem_4917.html

Please tell me you're not buying into this drivel. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt; you make good sense on the amnesty debacle. Help me out, man...

[loosecannon]

Please tell me you're not buying into this drivel. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt; you make good sense on the amnesty debacle. Help me out, man...

I agreed with the author before i read it. I had been lamenting the very same problem with a freind the night before.

There is a 30% slice of American's who have been trained by hatespewing shock jocks, antiabortion psuedo religious fanatics, Counters, Hannitys, Oreillys etc to believe every bit of dishonest tripe that flows from the spinners in the GOP noise machine and the GOP thinktanks.

This 30% is immune to reason and on a "crusade" to embroil the US in a permanent state of useless, self destructive war.

Because they actually prefer a state of war to a state of peace.

And that 30% is incapable of uniting.

We can't have a democracy if the people are forever divided.

Now I admit that there is a leftwing slice of America that is almost as immune to reason. And probably as big.

Prob is that over the last 7 years that left wing side has mostly been correct.

The rabid left does little harm. Whereas the rabid right is destroying our nation. The middle of the road 40% are looking at the rabid right and wondering what we are gonna do with them for the next 30 years.

[Dilloduck]

Could be the 27% are the "problem" because the other 73% can't some up with a better solution. I don't know MM. Being analyzed by a bunch of liberal pseudo-intellectuals might be sorta fun.

[Yurt]

I agreed with the author before i read it. I had been lamenting the very same problem with a freind the night before.

There is a 30% slice of American's who have been trained by hatespewing shock jocks, antiabortion psuedo religious fanatics, Counters, Hannitys, Oreillys etc to believe every bit of dishonest tripe that flows from the spinners in the GOP noise machine and the GOP thinktanks.

This 30% is immune to reason and on a "crusade" to embroil the US in a permanent state of useless, self destructive war.

Because they actually prefer a state of war to a state of peace.

And that 30% is incapable of uniting.

We can't have a democracy if the people are forever divided.

Now I admit that there is a leftwing slice of America that is almost as immune to reason. And probably as big.

Prob is that over the last 7 years that left wing side has mostly been correct.

The rabid left does little harm. Whereas the rabid right is destroying our nation. The middle of the road 40% are looking at the rabid right and wondering what we are gonna do with them for the next 30 years.

When your post is read in its entirety, you are clearly seen as hypocritical. The highlighted part merely points out a small part. "almost?" You spew spittle with that prattle about "hatespewing" shockjocks and list only conservative radio hosts. I have personally listened to airamerica when it first came out, they are the most hateful group of people ever. But that is not the point. Your problem with this supposed 30% is the exact problem you have.

Your bias blinds you the fact though. You, by this post, concede you have no desire to "unite" with anyone who does not support your views. You label them as hatemongers...

[loosecannon]

You, by this post, concede you have no desire to "unite" with anyone who does not support your views. You label them as hatemongers...

Nope that is just your opinion.

America by definition must share differences in POV. AND still function as a whole.

You might perceive the tree huggers as being as hateful as the christianofascists. I think that is laughable.

[Dilloduck]

Nope that is just your opinion.

America by definition must share differences in POV. AND still function as a whole.

You might perceive the tree huggers as being as hateful as the christianofascists. I think that is laughable.

I sorta like the part where conservatives are "analyzed" as not even being able to think independently. Do you realize that it has worked exactly the opposite way ? The "notorious" right wingers have tapped into an ideaology that pre-existed them and ran with it. Blaming Rush and Hannity for training conservatives how to think is absurd.

[Yurt]

Nope that is just your opinion.

America by definition must share differences in POV. AND still function as a whole.

You might perceive the tree huggers as being as hateful as the christianofascists. I think that is laughable.

:laugh2:

Translation:

Wow, Yurt, you are correct. You called me on my hypocritical post, good job Yurt!



E.g., you won't "unite" with the 30 percent that you claim won't "unite" with you....:poke:

[loosecannon]

:laugh2:

Translation:

Wow, Yurt, you are correct. You called me on my hypocritical post, good job Yurt!



E.g., you won't "unite" with the 30 percent that you claim won't "unite" with you....:poke:

Wrong as usual yurt.

The 27% in discussion are an actual threat to our nation.

Uniting with them is no prob. Uniting with their agenda is un American.

[loosecannon]

I sorta like the part where conservatives are "analyzed" as not even being able to think independently. Do you realize that it has worked exactly the opposite way ? The "notorious" right wingers have tapped into an ideaology that pre-existed them and ran with it. Blaming Rush and Hannity for training conservatives how to think is absurd.

The 27% in the focus of the conversation does not include all GOPers, and certainly not all conservatives.

It mostly concerns the folks who think like Gaffer. Everybody who opposes their POV is an islamofascist or a commie.

They are a brainwashed segment of society who drank too much proffesionally doctored kool aid.

[Yurt]

Wrong as usual yurt.

The 27% in discussion are an actual threat to our nation.

Uniting with them is no prob. Uniting with their agenda is un American.

Says you.... You still fail to see the hypocrisy... You are saying that americans should not unite with their agenda as it is un american. Open your eyes for second. It is the perversion of the left that is weakening america and is thus un american. You have backwards. But you'll come around.

[Yurt]

The 27% in the focus of the conversation does not include all GOPers, and certainly not all conservatives.

It mostly concerns the folks who think like Gaffer. Everybody who opposes their POV is an islamofascist or a commie.

They are a brainwashed segment of society who drank too much proffesionally doctored kool aid.

And according to you, those who oppose your view are:


Uniting with their agenda is un American.

Tell the sheep to get off yer head...

[Pale Rider]

There is a 30% slice of American's who have been trained by hatespewing shock jocks, antiabortion psuedo religious fanatics, Counters, Hannitys, Oreillys etc to believe every bit of dishonest tripe that flows from the spinners in the GOP noise machine and the GOP thinktanks.

Give me one, just ONE, example of this "dishonest tripe." And not just, "your opinion." I want links proving a lie and who said it.

[loosecannon]

Give me one, just ONE, example of this "dishonest tripe." And not just, "your opinion." I want links proving a lie and who said it.

WMD for a start. That lie was perpetrated by the entire WH, the NYTimes' Judith Miller, countless talk jocks, think tank generated articles, hell even Colin Powell was duped into repeating it.

Estimates range from a few hundred thousand to nearly a million lives lost because of that one lie.

Another choice lie was bush claiming that whenever wiretaps are ordered warrants are obtained.

The lie that could prove to be the most dangerous is the Islamofascists lie. I mean what conceivable parrallel could be drawn between fascism (the marriage of business and government) and Islam?

That particular lie may ignite a thrid WW, or keep us mired in ME conflicts for 30 years.


"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

Anytime a government ever tries to fan the flames of hate and war you can be almost certain that the threat is false and the attempt is a lie.

It happened around VN with the "domino theory". It happened before we invaded panama and kidnapped Noriega.

It happened before the 1st gulf war when a Kuwaite woman stood before Congress and LIED and said that the Iraqis were pulling babies from incubators. (that woman turned out to be the daughter of the Kuwaite embassador and she was in the US the whole time)

It happened for the last two years drumming up support for the Iran war.

It also happened for 40 years when a much more likely aggressor, the soviet union was the "culprit".

But the Soviets never attacked us. Not in 40 years.

Neither has Iraq, Iran, Panama, Korea or North Vietnam.

Only Japan and a rag tag band of desperados named AQ has attacked us in the last century.

But those orange alerts and an industry of propaganda were designed to make people believe we are being threatened.

People need to be smarter than to fall for a lie that is legendary and the tool of every warmongering government.

[nevadamedic]

Give me one, just ONE, example of this "dishonest tripe." And not just, "your opinion." I want links proving a lie and who said it.

:clap:

[Birdzeye]

WMD for a start. That lie was perpetrated by the entire WH, the NYTimes' Judith Miller, countless talk jocks, think tank generated articles, hell even Colin Powell was duped into repeating it.

Estimates range from a few hundred thousand to nearly a million lives lost because of that one lie.

Another choice lie was bush claiming that whenever wiretaps are ordered warrants are obtained.

The lie that could prove to be the most dangerous is the Islamofascists lie. I mean what conceivable parrallel could be drawn between fascism (the marriage of business and government) and Islam?

That particular lie may ignite a thrid WW, or keep us mired in ME conflicts for 30 years.



Anytime a government ever tries to fan the flames of hate and war you can be almost certain that the threat is false and the attempt is a lie.

It happened around VN with the "domino theory". It happened before we invaded panama and kidnapped Noriega.

It happened before the 1st gulf war when a Kuwaite woman stood before Congress and LIED and said that the Iraqis were pulling babies from incubators. (that woman turned out to be the daughter of the Kuwaite embassador and she was in the US the whole time)

It happened for the last two years drumming up support for the Iran war.

It also happened for 40 years when a much more likely aggressor, the soviet union was the "culprit".

But the Soviets never attacked us. Not in 40 years.

Neither has Iraq, Iran, Panama, Korea or North Vietnam.

Only Japan and a rag tag band of desperados named AQ has attacked us in the last century.

But those orange alerts and an industry of propaganda were designed to make people believe we are being threatened.

People need to be smarter than to fall for a lie that is legendary and the tool of every warmongering government.

You know this will be a no sale with the righties.

[nevadamedic]

You know this will be a no sale with the righties.

It's all propaganda.

[MtnBiker]

Only Japan and a rag tag band of desperados named AQ has attacked us in the last century.



Look at what a rag tag band of desperados are capable of.

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories/images/groundzero.jpg

[Yurt]

Says you.... You still fail to see the hypocrisy... You are saying that americans should not unite with their agenda as it is un american. Open your eyes for second. It is the perversion of the left that is weakening america and is thus un american. You have backwards. But you'll come around.

Loose,

Why are you conveniently ignoring the fact that you have been called out on your double standards in this thread?

[nevadamedic]

Look at what a rag tag band of desperados are capable of.

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories/images/groundzero.jpg

:clap: :salute:

[Birdzeye]

It's all propaganda.


You sure seem to have no problem with the propaganda spewed by the righties to justify this godforsaken war in Iraq and anything GWB does.

[Gaffer]

well comrade I will just have to say that if you want to be united with me on anything all you have to do is submit to my way of thinking. I won't submit to yours. I'll even copy islam and give you the opportunity to contine your liberal beliefs, all you have to do is pay me.

What is really fasinating is that I can't stand hannity and I rarely listen to Limbaugh. There are a lot more well informed rightwing hate mongers out there to listen to beside them. People that don't pander like hannity and don't idolize themselves like limbaugh.

Long live hate radio!

[nevadamedic]

You sure seem to have no problem with the propaganda spewed by the righties to justify this godforsaken war in Iraq and anything GWB does.

Iraq was a den of terror, the war is justified. Think back to 9/11, im sure back then you wanted us to go get everyone who was involved, and guess what, Iraq was. They supplied money and weapons to Bin Laden and his butt pirates. Also if they would have had WMD's up and running we would have been fucked.

[loosecannon]

Look at what a rag tag band of desperados are capable of.



I never forget it MtnBiker.

But we kill 10 times as many of each other every year.

And hurricanes and twisters do as much damage.

And we sure have left a "footprint" on Iraq too. Perhaps 30 times as many deaths and who knows maybe 1000 times the infrastructure damage.

If you fall for BinLaden's trap, and rush foolishly into war with the WRONG enemies because they attacked us , THEY WIN.

If you stay out of trouble and hunt them down one at a time and kill them WE WIN.

Where IS OSAMA Bin Laden?

they are therefore winning

[loosecannon]

What is really fasinating is that I can't stand hannity and I rarely listen to Limbaugh.

Good for you.


There are a lot more well informed rightwing hate mongers out there to listen to beside them. People that don't pander like hannity and don't idolize themselves like limbaugh.

Smart hatemongers, you heard it here folks. Rove etc.


Long live hate radio!

and the fuhrer

[loosecannon]

They supplied money and weapons to Bin Laden and his butt pirates. Also if they would have had WMD's up and running we would have been fucked.


Bald Faced LIES. Even Bush admits this is BS.

The ONLY terror that Saddam was a sponsor of was that he paid "rewards" to families whose members had died as suicide bombers in Israel.

Yes that is terrorsm. But it isn't our problem.

Meanwhile Luis Posada Carriles is set free in the US after he blew up a jet in the Carribean and killed over 100 people.

Yes that is ALSO terrorism. And WE are supporting it.

We are no different than Saddam. In fact we gave Saddam his WMD to kill Iranians.

[Birdzeye]

Iraq was a den of terror, the war is justified. Think back to 9/11, im sure back then you wanted us to go get everyone who was involved, and guess what, Iraq was. They supplied money and weapons to Bin Laden and his butt pirates. Also if they would have had WMD's up and running we would have been fucked.


I don't s'pose you have any reliable links to back all that up, would you?

[loosecannon]

I don't s'pose you have any reliable links to back all that up, would you?

there aren't any reliable links to back that up.

[Yurt]

Loose,

Why are you conveniently ignoring the fact that you have been called out on your double standards in this thread?

...............:coffee:

[loosecannon]

...............:coffee:

Yurt, sorry Bud, but I consider you a bit too looney to take seriously.

[Gaffer]

I never forget it MtnBiker.

But we kill 10 times as many of each other every year.

How many people have you killed lately?

And hurricanes and twisters do as much damage.

Those are natural diseasters and don't fall into the equation.

And we sure have left a "footprint" on Iraq too. Perhaps 30 times as many deaths and who knows maybe 1000 times the infrastructure damage.

Iraq was war. There are going to be deaths. And damage to infrastucture, its part of incapacitating the enemy.

If you fall for BinLaden's trap, and rush foolishly into war with the WRONG enemies because they attacked us , THEY WIN.

I still don't understand what you mean by this. What wrong enemies? We were attacked by bin ladins al queda, we went after them and their host government.

If you stay out of trouble and hunt them down one at a time and kill them WE WIN.

How about if we hunt them down and kill them hundreds at a time, wouldn't that better serve our purpose and get the war over faster. Or should we have just sent the NYPD to afganhistan to arrest everybody?

Where IS OSAMA Bin Laden?

they are therefore winning

bin laden is a figure head and while getting him would be great he's not that important. You want him? Based on all the reports he's in western pakistan. How do you propose we get him?

I personally think he's hole up in iran. If so, how do you propose we get him?

[Yurt]

Yurt, sorry Bud, but I consider you a bit too looney to take seriously.

Translation:

Yurt is right again, so I have to insult him to make myself "look" right...

Nice try cannon, you're just chicken

[loosecannon]

You want him? Based on all the reports he's in western pakistan. How do you propose we get him?



The same way we should have gotten rid of Saddam. Assassin squads.

natural disasters count because they frame the scope of the threat.

WE have killed between a few hundred thousand and a million Mulims since 9/11.

I thought you considered 9/11 an attack by a muslim enemy, an act of war? So all war casualties count.


Iraq was not AQ's host nation.

1 at a time, 1000 great. As long as they actually are the folks who attacked us.

You could kill half of islam, 600 million but if you don't get the truly guilty you just made things much worse.

[loosecannon]

Translation:

Yurt is right again, so I have to insult him to make myself "look" right...

Nice try cannon, you're just chicken


No, translation: Yurt posts whackery. I usually ignore everything you say, cuz it is whackery.

One man is a crazed loon and he walks around with a peace banner all day. no biggee.

Another man is a crazed loon and walks around inciting violence all day provoking mob reaction. Biggee.

The second man is the problem. He is part of the 27%.

[Yurt]

No, translation: Yurt posts whackery. I usually ignore everything you say, cuz it is whackery.

One man is a crazed loon and he walks around with a peace banner all day. no biggee.

Another man is a crazed loon and walks around inciting violence all day provoking mob reaction. Biggee.

The second man is the problem. He is part of the 27%.

Thats the best you can do? :lame2:

It is so simple to answer, the very fact you waste so much time and energy avoiding the real issues shows how silly you really are. Seriously, it makes you look very pathetic. But I will try one more time to show you your hypocrisy in the hopes you will see the light:


Originally Posted by loosecannon
The 27% in the focus of the conversation does not include all GOPers, and certainly not all conservatives.

It mostly concerns the folks who think like Gaffer. Everybody who opposes their POV is an islamofascist or a commie.

They are a brainwashed segment of society who drank too much proffesionally doctored kool aid.

Then you make the same type of comment, which I addressed here:


And according to you, those who oppose your view are:


Quote:
Uniting with their agenda is un American.


Its plain as day loose. Continue to insult me all you want, it only further serves to prove my point about your hypocrisy. Or you can be a grown up and address your blatent hypocrisy.

Your choice.

[loosecannon]

Continue to insult me all you want

I wasn't insulting you per se, I was being polite.

I tend to disregard almost everything you say as being whackery.

No biggee, carry on.

[Gaffer]

The same way we should have gotten rid of Saddam. Assassin squads.

So we should send assassins into a soveriegn country? And how are they suppose to locate him? As I asked before how do you propose we find him? I'm sure there are squads standing by in case they can spot him. It's kind of hard to search for someone if you can't send teams into the country he's hiding in.

natural disasters count because they frame the scope of the threat.

They have nothing to do with the scope of the threat or anything else. Apples and oranges.

WE have killed between a few hundred thousand and a million Mulims since 9/11.

I would hope it was that many, but I think you over estimating. We have killed several thousand islamists and a lot of saddams soldiers died in the invasion. Most of the iraqi's dying now are from al queda bombings.

I thought you considered 9/11 an attack by a muslim enemy, an act of war? So all war casualties count.

It was an act of war and all war casualties do count, including those in iraq which is a front in the overall war.


Iraq was not AQ's host nation.

I never said it was. You had been talking about bin laden who was in afganhistan under the protection of the taliban. That was the host nation. You know, that other front in the war.

1 at a time, 1000 great. As long as they actually are the folks who attacked us.

If they support and/or harbor the ones that attacked us then that's ok too. Our military doesn't arbitrarily target innocent civilians much as you believe that. But casualties do occur, especially when the enemy hides among the civilians for the express purpose of causing such casualties.

You could kill half of islam, 600 million but if you don't get the truly guilty you just made things much worse.

The truly guilty hide among the rest of the muslim population. They are protected and supported by them. So who's truely guilty.

Are you aware of how hezzbollah and hama leaders protect themselves from assassination. They surround themselves with women and children. The al queda and taliban leaders do the same thing as did saddam. They all know the western forces will hesitate to fire when women and children are present. The women know what they are doing and are as much a part of it as the men. The children are the only real innocents.

What do you call a million dead muslims in the middle east....a good start.

[loosecannon]

The truly guilty hide among the rest of the muslim population. They are protected and supported by them. So who's truely guilty.

Are you aware of how hezzbollah and hama leaders protect themselves from assassination. They surround themselves with women and children. The al queda and taliban leaders do the same thing as did saddam. They all know the western forces will hesitate to fire when women and children are present. The women know what they are doing and are as much a part of it as the men. The children are the only real innocents.

What do you call a million dead muslims in the middle east....a good start.

Gaffe, it is refreshing that we are learning to talk instead of just exchanging hatred.

But I still think you are brainwashed.

Killing a million Muslims will only make things worse.

Unless a war to exceed all wars is your goal. We could easily be setting the stage for a war in which a billion die over 100 years. And we are heavily outnumbered.

What fucking business do we even have in the ME? Other than haliburton, who seems to want to relocate to the heart of the conflict zone.

[OCA]

And according to you, those who oppose your view are:



Tell the sheep to get off yer head...


Hahaha Loose thinks he's so smart but in the end he's no fucking smarter than a 7-11 clerk.

[OCA]

I never forget it MtnBiker.

But we kill 10 times as many of each other every year.

And we sure have left a "footprint" on Iraq too. Perhaps 30 times as many deaths and who knows maybe 1000 times the infrastructure damage.

[/b]

All in a days good work.

Come at me with a bat i'll come at you with a knife.

Thank God Bush has some balls.

Bin Laden will be caught in due time.

[OCA]

We are no different than Saddam. In fact we gave Saddam his WMD to kill Iranians.

You have no understanding of situational geopolitics.

[OCA]

Links between AQ and Saddam:

http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200406170840.asp

[loosecannon]

Hahaha Loose thinks he's so smart but in the end he's no fucking smarter than a 7-11 clerk.

as opposed to OCA who is underqualified to be a 7/11 clerk.

Go to the cage OCA, go directly to the cage, do not pass start do not collect $200.

[OCA]

as opposed to OCA who is underqualified to be a 7/11 clerk.

Go to the cage OCA, go directly to the cage, do not pass start do not collect $200.


You can't run with me, you knew this from the beginning.

This board is over your head.

You are a coward because you refuse to debate me, that is how you are viewed on the board, that is your persona.

[avatar4321]

You know this will be a no sale with the righties.

Now why would we buy a bunch of horse manure?

[loosecannon]

You can't run with me, you knew this from the beginning.

This board is over your head.

You are a coward because you refuse to debate me, that is how you are viewed on the board, that is your persona.

You are a full on joke OCA, You simply can not debate anyone.

You can only distract, dodge and make noise like a clown.:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

[avatar4321]

The same way we should have gotten rid of Saddam. Assassin squads.

natural disasters count because they frame the scope of the threat.

WE have killed between a few hundred thousand and a million Mulims since 9/11.

I thought you considered 9/11 an attack by a muslim enemy, an act of war? So all war casualties count.


Iraq was not AQ's host nation.

1 at a time, 1000 great. As long as they actually are the folks who attacked us.

You could kill half of islam, 600 million but if you don't get the truly guilty you just made things much worse.

You honestly think we have killed nearly a million muslims? I find that hard to believe.

[Yurt]

You can't run with me, you knew this from the beginning.

This board is over your head.

You are a coward because you refuse to debate me, that is how you are viewed on the board, that is your persona.

Its true. See how cowardly he tried to turn this thread into a "cage" thread. He mocks me, but then gets his knickers in a twist when someone calls him on his BS for refusing to debate when he called out for the hypocrite smack talker he his.

[loosecannon]

You honestly think we have killed nearly a million muslims? I find that hard to believe.

The scientific estimates range from 200,000 to 1,000,000 in Iraq alone since 2003.

Find whatever you want, that is the best available info.

[Yurt]

You are a full on joke OCA, You simply can not debate anyone.

You can only distract, dodge and make noise like a clown.:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

Man, you are ignorant, I have proven you a hypocrite already and you now you do it again in the same thread. Have you a brain?

Here is you answering me on calling you out about your hypocrisy concerning the 27%:


Yurt, sorry Bud, but I consider you a bit too looney to take seriously.

I asked you to stop insulting and debate the point:


No, translation: Yurt posts whackery. I usually ignore everything you say, cuz it is whackery.




wasn't insulting you per se, I was being polite.

I tend to disregard almost everything you say as being whackery.



Admit it, you are reflecting onto to OCA your own faults.

[Yurt]

Again loose you prove me RIGHT:




You can't debate, only insult, a waste...

[loosecannon]

Man, you are ignorant, I have proven you a hypocrite already and you now you do it again in the same thread. Have you a brain?

Here is you answering me on calling you out about your hypocrisy concerning the 27%:



I asked you to stop insulting and debate the point:









Admit it, you are reflecting onto to OCA your own faults.

Thanks for the hillarity Yurtcicle. seriously tho dude, you don't prove anything. You can't even string coherent thoughts into a sequence.

But thanks for the attention......

[OCA]

Loose seriously, this board is way too much for you. You constantly use only ad hominem as your only tool when called on a statement you make, we all use ad hominem from time to time BUT THAT IS ALL YOU DO because 1. you cannot debate and 2. you know your "factual" statements are bullshit and can't be backed up so you are quick to go on the personal attack.

Do the board a favor, leave.

[loosecannon]

Do the board a favor, leave.


Not till Bush is impeached.

Meanwhile, you can't hang and you know it.

[Baron Von Esslingen]

Loose seriously, this board is way too much for you. You constantly use only ad hominem as your only tool when called on a statement you make, we all use ad hominem from time to time BUT THAT IS ALL YOU DO because 1. you cannot debate and 2. you know your "factual" statements are bullshit and can't be backed up so you are quick to go on the personal attack.

Do the board a favor, leave.

http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/0608/pot_kettle_black.jpg

from the premier personal attacker on this board, this is an amusing accusation...

[Baron Von Esslingen]

However this is the problem:

What do you do when 1/4 of the people in your country are the enemy of your country?

We cannot be a United State when 1/4 of the nation does not believe in Uniting. When they believe only in capitulation and conquest.

When their point-of-view – their superstitious, eliminationist, Hate Radio-barbered point-of-view – is impervious to reason, compassion or mercy,

Because while they may not possess the basic cognitive and empathic functions the Good Lord saw fit to endow flatworms with, they do stomp and scream and vote, and it is high time – long past time – to start speaking of the 27% that props up the GOP as The Problem.

"The Problem" is simply that these people (I call them neocons) think that they are the only ones to have a solution to the problems facing this country. They are not interested in what anyone else has to say and they are certainly not going to compromise one iota from their stated line, everyone else be damned. They set themselves apart and either you join them or you are the enemy. That's about as unAmerican as you can get. That's authoritarian. That's dictatorial. And what if they are wrong? Their view doesn't allow for mistakes and their pride refuses to allow them to admit it for fear that other articles of their creed be questioned as well. If you do get the balls to question their stand and hold up it to scrutiny and prove that what they believe is not true or correct, the personal attacks (also called the Politics of Personal Destruction) begin and do not let up until the blood in the water turns the water red. Lately, however, most of the red in the water has been from the neocons and that infuriates them even more.

I found your figure of 27% to be quite telling in light of the Newsweek poll that gave this failed presidency only a 28% approval rating. Maybe someone besides the aforementioned neocons is still clinging to a shred of belief.

[darin]

"The Problem" is simply that these people (I call them neocons) think that they are the only ones to have a solution to the problems facing this country. They are not interested in what anyone else has to say and they are certainly not going to compromise one iota from their stated line, everyone else be damned.


One reason for that - Generally, Conservative ideas on how to run the country are the only VALID ideas. Likewise, Generally, Liberal viewpoints are horrible, and only serve to generate 'power' for liberal politicians and as a result, send our society down the toilet. :)

:D

[Baron Von Esslingen]

Original point proven. Thanks.

[darin]

Original point proven. Thanks.

Sucks a bit - I know, for liberals. But their ideas really are generally CRAPPY for the country. :( For ANY society.

[Baron Von Esslingen]

Like I said, thanks for proving my original point.

[darin]

Like I said, thanks for proving my original point.

Like I said - and I'm right. :) I Care enough about our society to NOT stand-by silently and watch Liberal Ideology lead us to destruction.

[Birdzeye]

Like I said - and I'm right. :) I Care enough about our society to NOT stand-by silently and watch Liberal Ideology lead us to destruction.

I have seen what right wing ideology, as promoted by the Bush administration and the radical right fringe of the GOP that seems to have a lockhold on that party, has done TO this country in recent years, and I'm frankly very worried about what they've done. I let my congresscritters know how I stand on issues, but I don't know what else I can do to stop the neocon assault on the USA during the past six years.

[loosecannon]

One reason for that - Generally, Conservative ideas on how to run the country are the only VALID ideas. Likewise, Generally, Liberal viewpoints are horrible, and only serve to generate 'power' for liberal politicians and as a result, send our society down the toilet. :)

:D

Let's just assume you are right.

So why has the GOP abandoned conservative ideas entirely?

Wouldn't that make them categorically wrong by your own standards?

[diuretic]

Like I said - and I'm right. :) I Care enough about our society to NOT stand-by silently and watch Liberal Ideology lead us to destruction.

I don't want to put you on the spot so take your time but exactly what "liberal ideology" is going to take your country to destruction?

[darin]

So why has the GOP abandoned conservative ideas entirely?

Wouldn't that make them categorically wrong by your own standards?

They haven't 'entirely' - but indeed, they are growing ever-Leftist/Marxist. But...it's all we got.

[Dilloduck]

Like I said, thanks for proving my original point.

Oh ya--and a great point it is too-----Everything is all the neocons fault.

:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

[darin]

I have seen what right wing ideology, as promoted by the Bush administration and the radical right fringe of the GOP that seems to have a lockhold on that party, has done TO this country in recent years, and I'm frankly very worried about what they've done. I let my congresscritters know how I stand on issues, but I don't know what else I can do to stop the neocon assault on the USA during the past six years.

Radical Right? That's the problem, Bird. You are SO FAR Uber Left, that even 'middle of the road' become 'radical right'. Heck, I've known Moderate LIBERALS you'd accuse of being a part of the Radical Right.

:)

[loosecannon]

They haven't 'entirely' - but indeed, they are growing ever-Leftist/Marxist. But...it's all we got.

They are ever fascist, the far right.

Name one tenet of traditional conservatism that the GOP has embodied in 6 years.

[loosecannon]

Everything is all the neocons fault.


:clap: :clap: :clap:

[Dilloduck]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

like my sarcasm, huh?

here's a quote from Baron about "neocons"


They set themselves apart and either you join them or you are the enemy

obviously the liberals have set themselves apart as the ones with the correct answers too. Please tell me that you see how absurd this claim is. I see NO ONE doing any compromisng here.

[loosecannon]

like my sarcasm, huh?

here's a quote from Baron about "neocons"



obviously the liberals have set themselves apart as the ones with the correct answers too. Please tell me that you see how absurd this claim is. I see NO ONE doing any compromisng here.

I can only speak for me but the BA, the all GOP congress absolutely tried to shut the dems or half the nation out of any say in our federal democracy and maintain that hold for a generation.

Once you pry the WH out of Bush's cold dead hands i want to see a return to bipartisanship or a complete flush of the congress.

I won't like the dems any better if they do the same thing. I am not with the Hillary agenda either.

[OCA]

http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/0608/pot_kettle_black.jpg

from the premier personal attacker on this board, this is an amusing accusation...


Another coward.

[Dilloduck]

I can only speak for me but the BA, the all GOP congress absolutely tried to shut the dems or half the nation out of any say in our federal democracy and maintain that hold for a generation.

Once you pry the WH out of Bush's cold dead hands i want to see a return to bipartisanship or a complete flush of the congress.

I won't like the dems any better if they do the same thing. I am not with the Hillary agenda either.

The two party system itself is probably a bigger danger to American than anything. I'm not seeing either side willing to give an inch except when they meet behind closed doors to screw the whole country.

[loosecannon]

The two party system itself is probably a bigger danger to American than anything. I'm not seeing either side willing to give an inch except when they meet behind closed doors to screw the whole country.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[MtnBiker]

The scientific estimates range from 200,000 to 1,000,000 in Iraq alone since 2003.

Find whatever you want, that is the best available info.

You are the one posting the numbers, how about a link.

[OCA]

You are the one posting the numbers, how about a link.


Biker you'll get nothing from him/her, the m.o. is to say anything off the top of your head and then when asked to provide proof or a link tell the asker to do it theirself............quality debating skills on display.

[gabosaurus]

This thread brings to mind a line from an awesome Stealer's Wheel song:

"Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right"

[loosecannon]

You are the one posting the numbers, how about a link.

The low end numbers usually come from Iraqi officials or US sources like the pentagon.


A team of American and Iraqi epidemiologists estimates that 655,000 more people have died in Iraq since coalition forces arrived in March 2003 than would have died if the invasion had not occurred.

The estimate, produced by interviewing residents during a random sampling of households throughout the country, is far higher than ones produced by other groups, including Iraq's government.

It is more than 20 times the estimate of 30,000 civilian deaths that President Bush gave in a speech in December. It is more than 10 times the estimate of roughly 50,000 civilian deaths made by the British-based Iraq Body Count research group.

Of the total 655,000 estimated "excess deaths," 601,000 resulted from violence and the rest from disease and other causes, according to the study. This is about 500 unexpected violent deaths per day throughout the country.

The survey was done by Iraqi physicians and overseen by epidemiologists at Johns Hopkins University's Bloomberg School of Public Health. The findings are being published online today by the British medical journal the Lancet.

The same group in 2004 published an estimate of roughly 100,000 deaths in the first 18 months after the invasion. That figure was much higher than expected, and was controversial. The new study estimates that about 500,000 more Iraqis, both civilian and military, have died since then -- a finding likely to be equally controversial.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

The actual lancet report actually said that the excess casualties were in a range between 400,000 and 950,000 with a margin of error of a few %.

full report
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/images/10/11/human.cost.of.war.pdf

There was another survey that estimated 350,000 excess deaths that was released a few months after the John Hpkins/Lancet Journal of medicine survey was released. But I have no idea who conducted it.

[Yurt]

like my sarcasm, huh?

here's a quote from Baron about "neocons"



obviously the liberals have set themselves apart as the ones with the correct answers too. Please tell me that you see how absurd this claim is. I see NO ONE doing any compromisng here.

Great point. The hypocrisy is overwhelming. In fact those that don't agree with these alleged 27% group call them "un american," while in the same breath critizing this 27% for questioning the loyalty of the non 27%. When called on it, these people can't answer the allegation of hypocrisy and become shrill with absurd accusations against the 27%.

So the question begs, is compromise possible or even advisable?

[Dilloduck]

I can only speak for me but the BA, the all GOP congress absolutely tried to shut the dems or half the nation out of any say in our federal democracy and maintain that hold for a generation.

Once you pry the WH out of Bush's cold dead hands i want to see a return to bipartisanship or a complete flush of the congress.

I won't like the dems any better if they do the same thing. I am not with the Hillary agenda either.

If it's anything like what the Congressional democrats have ALREADY done since taking over the house you better start going for the complete flush. They can't accomplish a thing except payback.

[loosecannon]

You are the one posting the numbers, how about a link.

there is also this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Study_Group_Report


The panel pointed to one day last July when U.S. officials reported 93 attacks or significant acts of violence. Yet a careful review of the reports for that single day brought to light 1,100 acts of violence. The standard for recording attacks acts as a filter to keep events out of reports and databases ... Good policy is difficult to make when information is systematically collected in a way that minimizes its discrepancy with policy goals.

[MtnBiker]

The actual lancet report actually said that the excess casualties were in a range between 400,000 and 950,000 with a margin of error of a few %.

full report
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/images/10/11/human.cost.of.war.pdf

There was another survey that estimated 350,000 excess deaths that was released a few months after the John Hpkins/Lancet Journal of medicine survey was released. But I have no idea who conducted it.

Still some disagreement on the numbers


The survey was conducted between May 20 and July 10 by eight Iraqi physicians organized through Mustansiriya University in Baghdad. They visited 1,849 randomly selected households that had an average of seven members each. One person in each household was asked about deaths in the 14 months before the invasion and in the period after.

The interviewers asked for death certificates 87 percent of the time; when they did, more than 90 percent of households produced certificates.

According to the survey results, Iraq's mortality rate in the year before the invasion was 5.5 deaths per 1,000 people; in the post-invasion period it was 13.3 deaths per 1,000 people per year. The difference between these rates was used to calculate "excess deaths."

Of the 629 deaths reported, 87 percent occurred after the invasion. A little more than 75 percent of the dead were men, with a greater male preponderance after the invasion. For violent post-invasion deaths, the male-to-female ratio was 10-to-1, with most victims between 15 and 44 years old.

Gunshot wounds caused 56 percent of violent deaths, with car bombs and other explosions causing 14 percent, according to the survey results. Of the violent deaths that occurred after the invasion, 31 percent were caused by coalition forces or airstrikes, the respondents said.

Burnham said that the estimate of Iraq's pre-invasion death rate -- 5.5 deaths per 1,000 people -- found in both of the Hopkins surveys was roughly the same estimate used by the CIA and the U.S. Census Bureau. He said he believes that attests to the accuracy of his team's results.

He thinks further evidence of the survey's robustness is that the steepness of the upward trend it found in excess deaths in the last two years is roughly the same tendency found by other groups -- even though the actual numbers differ greatly.

An independent group of researchers and biostatisticians based in England produces the Iraq Body Count. It estimates that there have been 44,000 to 49,000 civilian deaths since the invasion. An Iraqi nongovernmental organization estimated 128,000 deaths between the invasion and July 2005.

The survey cost about $50,000 and was paid for by Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Center for International Studies.

[OCA]

The low end numbers usually come from Iraqi officials or US sources like the pentagon.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

The actual lancet report actually said that the excess casualties were in a range between 400,000 and 950,000 with a margin of error of a few %.

full report
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/images/10/11/human.cost.of.war.pdf

There was another survey that estimated 350,000 excess deaths that was released a few months after the John Hpkins/Lancet Journal of medicine survey was released. But I have no idea who conducted it.

Even if these numbers are correct who gives a shit? War sucks, people die, thats why its called war. Nobody screamed about German civilians getting slaughtered when we bombed the shit out of Berlin.

I think its fucking great.

[loosecannon]

Still some disagreement on the numbers

The Iraq body count is bogus.

It collects data exclusively from news reports.

It even has a discalimer in it's site which verifies no degree of accuracy.

It is worthless.

[loosecannon]

Even if these numbers are correct who gives a shit? War sucks, people die, thats why its called war. Nobody screamed about German civilians getting slaughtered when we bombed the shit out of Berlin.

I think its fucking great.

Ask MtnBiker.

I made a statement that estimates range from a few hundred thousand to almost a million excess caualties.

If you accept that what is your concern?

[MtnBiker]

Ask MtnBiker.



Ask me what?

[loosecannon]

Ask me what?


OCA sed Even if these numbers are correct who gives a shit?

ask OCA

[MtnBiker]

I believe the question was directed to you. You are the one posting the numbers.

[loosecannon]

Ask me what?


from Iraq Body Counts website


“We don’t do body counts”
General Tommy Franks, US

and

This is an ongoing human security project which maintains and updates the world’s only independent and comprehensive public database of media-reported civilian deaths in Iraq that have resulted from the 2003 military intervention by the USA and its allies. The count includes civilian deaths caused by coalition military action and by military or paramilitary responses to the coalition presence (e.g. insurgent and terrorist attacks).

It also includes excess civilian deaths caused by criminal action resulting from the breakdown in law and order which followed the coalition invasion. Results and totals are continually updated and made immediately available here and on various IBC web counters which may be freely displayed on any website or homepage, where they are automatically updated without further intervention.

Casualty figures are derived from a comprehensive survey of online media reports from recognized sources. Where these sources report differing figures, the range (a minimum and a maximum) are given. This method is also used to deal with any residual uncertainty about the civilian or non-combatant status of the dead. All results are independently reviewed and error-checked by at least three members of the Iraq Body Count project team before publication.

IOW stuff I could access from my computer.

[MtnBiker]

Non violent, unknown sources of violent and non coalition violent far outweigh coalition sources of death.

Figure 3

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/images/10/11/human.cost.of.war.pdf

[loosecannon]

Non violent, unknown sources of violent and non coalition violent far outweigh coalition sources of death.

Figure 3




so?


Key Findings Death rates were 5.5/1000/year pre-invasion, and overall, 13.2/1000/year
for the 40 months post-invasion. We estimate that through July 2006, there have been
654,965 “excess deaths”—fatalities above the pre-invasion death rate—in Iraq as a
consequence of the war. Of post-invasion deaths, 601,027 were due to violent causes.
Non-violent deaths rose above the pre-invasion level only in 2006. Since March 2003, an
additional 2.5% of Iraq’s population have died above what would have occurred without
conflict.
The proportion of deaths ascribed to coalition forces has diminished in 2006, though the
actual numbers have increased each year. Gunfire remains the most common reason for
death, though deaths from car bombing have increased from 2005. Those killed are
predominantly males aged 15-44 years.

Clinton gets credited/blamed for 500,000 deaths as a result of the sanctions. This study concludes that 655,000 deaths in addition to that rate have occured since the invasion and as a result of the war.

And the Iraq study group contends that death and violence rates have been systematically under reported by the Iraqi government and Pentagon.

So what is your point?

[Baron Von Esslingen]

Another coward.

I agree. You are a coward. That's what happens when you are one of the 27%.

[nevadamedic]

Biker you'll get nothing from him/her, the m.o. is to say anything off the top of your head and then when asked to provide proof or a link tell the asker to do it theirself............quality debating skills on display.

:clap:

[MtnBiker]

so?



Clinton gets credited/blamed for 500,000 deaths as a result of the sanctions. This study concludes(not concludes rather estimates) that 655,000 deaths in addition to that rate have occured since the invasion and as a result of the war.

And the Iraq study group contends that death and violence rates have been systematically under reported by the Iraqi government and Pentagon.

So what is your point?

Just pointing out estimated discrepancies. Not really sure of the relevance to the estimated Iraqi death toll in relationship to a picture of Ground Zero as a result of an attack by a "rag tag band of desperados" anyway. BTW I never did believe the estimated 500,000 deaths due to sanctions.