Faith and memory loss.

[Noir]

Been considering this for a while now and would like to here some other opinions on the matter, the problem of faith and memory loss. Obviously as this is a Christian leaning site I will use Christian terms for ease of examples, but feel free to substitute in any religion/god/afterlife.

Simple question is simple. If someone of devout faith loses their faith through no fault of their own (say a memory disease, or a sudden brain damaging accident etc) would they still be welcomed into heaven?

Many people in their old age suffer from memory loss that can even erase family members from ones knowledge, so it is most reasonable to think that many people of faith have died not knowing they even had any their whole life, however, owing to thing like car accidents there are also people who suffer massive brain loss much earlier in life, and they may have 20, 30 or more years to 'refind' that faith, if they don't, are they to be judged the same or differently from those suffering the effects of aging? And if not, then where is the line to be drawn?

Ofcourse it is impossible in any sense to have a 'right' answer, but I think having an opinion of the right answer is interesting enough to hear.

[PostmodernProphet]

Been considering this for a while now and would like to here some other opinions on the matter, the problem of faith and memory loss. Obviously as this is a Christian leaning site I will use Christian terms for ease of examples, but feel free to substitute in any religion/god/afterlife.

Simple question is simple. If someone of devout faith loses their faith through no fault of their own (say a memory disease, or a sudden brain damaging accident etc) would they still be welcomed into heaven?

Many people in their old age suffer from memory loss that can even erase family members from ones knowledge, so it is most reasonable to think that many people of faith have died not knowing they even had any their whole life, however, owing to thing like car accidents there are also people who suffer massive brain loss much earlier in life, and they may have 20, 30 or more years to 'refind' that faith, if they don't, are they to be judged the same or differently from those suffering the effects of aging? And if not, then where is the line to be drawn?

Ofcourse it is impossible in any sense to have a 'right' answer, but I think having an opinion of the right answer is interesting enough to hear.

doesn't your question assume that both the individual and God are incapable of remembering?.......I'm willing to bet that God is capable of knowing what the person believed before they became incapable of making conscious choices.....

[Noir]

doesn't your question assume that both the individual and God are incapable of remembering?.......I'm willing to bet that God is capable of knowing what the person believed before they became incapable of making conscious choices.....

My question does assume that the human doesn't remember the faith part of their past. It does not assume anything of a god (though it does ask what DPers opinions of its assumptions will be)

Also, to make clear, this question doesn't involve a human who has no conscious thought or who can not make choices, merely someone who is suffering from memory loss. The thought of this cam about after I watched a program about people who lost memories after car accidents, some people completely forgot who their loved ones were, or entire chunks or their life, others had to learn how to write again and so on.

So, for example, if a 30 year old who became a Christian at 20 after a 'life changing experience' (as some religious people claim to have had) and thy are in an accident, forgetting their life from 15 years old onwards (ie including the 'spiritually awaking event') and they never again get that feeling and say live the rest of their life as an agnostic, what do you think a god would make of that?

[Dilloduck]

God will punish victims of brain trauma by sending them straight to hell. It only makes sense.

[jimnyc]

Yeah, I would have to say that a persons relationship with their God, and their faith, prior to their disease kicking in is what would matter. It's not like they are turning their back on God or their faith and it's happening by no fault of their own.

[Wind Song]

If you don't mind a Buddhist answer, I'll offer one.

[jimnyc]

If you don't mind a Buddhist answer, I'll offer one.

Go ahead and offer, you don't need permission! I for one would like to hear a Buddhists perspective on the question/answer.

[Wind Song]

The Buddhist answer is that it's best to practice now, and to understand that the opportunity is impermanent.

If you've lost all brain function, you certainly can't meditate. But you carry your positive karma with you when you die.

If you have a lifetime of pure practice, and then start losing it while aging, if you know how to rest in the nature of mind you can do that.

[logroller]

God will punish victims of brain trauma by sending them straight to hell. It only makes sense.
Or maybe victims of brain trauma weren't really true at heart, and God punished them for their false beliefs.

[Wind Song]

That makes me think of the difference between Judeo Christian concepts of eternal damnation and the Buddhist concept of karma.

One has judgment, one does not.

[fj1200]

One has the concept of grace, one has a concept of a score card. :poke:

[logroller]

That makes me think of the difference between Judeo Christian concepts of eternal damnation and the Buddhist concept of karma.

One has judgment, one does not.
I was more joking than serious, but I do believe we face trials in life which test our faith. If that trial were so severe that one's faith itself is removed, like the proverbial bird which is set free-- it should come back if the faith was true to begin with.

[Wind Song]

One has the concept of grace, one has a concept of a score card. :poke:

Please explain. Buddhism doesn't have a scorecard.

[Noir]

Yeah, I would have to say that a persons relationship with their God, and their faith, prior to their disease kicking in is what would matter. It's not like they are turning their back on God or their faith and it's happening by no fault of their own.

2 questions this raises imo -

A - What of people that are born into a religion? Say someone who is all but forced (though Ofcourse their parents etc will say they have a choice) into say the Muslim faith, they are then involved in an accident as an adult, forgetting their life beforehand, and when they return to studying the faith they were told they once had, they discover that without the faith that was instilled in them as a child that they can not accept that Mohammed was the last prophet, or even that there have been any divine prophets...would you think the god would overlook the skeptical adult because he was once a brainwashed child?

B - what about people who develop a mental illness that makes them believe that (for example) Jesus is talking to them, and because of this disease they become a devout Christian because of said illness, would you think the god should judge the person as they were before the mental illness or after?

[jimnyc]

2 questions this raises imo -

A - What of people that are born into a religion? Say someone who is all but forced (though Ofcourse their parents etc will say they have a choice) into say the Muslim faith, they are then involved in an accident as an adult, forgetting their life beforehand, and when they return to studying the faith they were told they once had, they discover that without the faith that was instilled in them as a child that they can not accept that Mohammed was the last prophet, or even that there have been any divine prophets...would you think the god would overlook the skeptical adult because he was once a brainwashed child?

B - what about people who develop a mental illness that makes them believe that (for example) Jesus is talking to them, and because of this disease they become a devout Christian because of said illness, would you think the god should judge the person as they were before the mental illness or after?

A - This all depends on the state of mind of the person after the accident. If mentally competent, and they change their mind, and their beliefs, then it's that point that counts and that belief that counts, I suppose, but that's just my opinion. If you lead a Muslim/Christian/Jewish lifestyle and then turn your back on God in the latter stages of your life, and you're competent, then I suppose that is what matters.

B - As for mental illness, I think God would know whether their belief is "real" or not. I think God would welcome someone into Heaven if they had an illness their entire life. A mental illness, IMO, wouldn't "trick" God, he'll know whether the person has faith in their heart or not.

[PostmodernProphet]

My question does assume that the human doesn't remember the faith part of their past. It does not assume anything of a god (though it does ask what DPers opinions of its assumptions will be)

Also, to make clear, this question doesn't involve a human who has no conscious thought or who can not make choices, merely someone who is suffering from memory loss. The thought of this cam about after I watched a program about people who lost memories after car accidents, some people completely forgot who their loved ones were, or entire chunks or their life, others had to learn how to write again and so on.

So, for example, if a 30 year old who became a Christian at 20 after a 'life changing experience' (as some religious people claim to have had) and thy are in an accident, forgetting their life from 15 years old onwards (ie including the 'spiritually awaking event') and they never again get that feeling and say live the rest of their life as an agnostic, what do you think a god would make of that?

but, does it matter if the person does not remember God, so long as God remembers the person?......

[PostmodernProphet]

Please explain. Buddhism doesn't have a scorecard.

then what is meant by a "lifetime of pure practice"......

[Salty]

Been considering this for a while now and would like to here some other opinions on the matter, the problem of faith and memory loss. Obviously as this is a Christian leaning site I will use Christian terms for ease of examples, but feel free to substitute in any religion/god/afterlife.

Simple question is simple. If someone of devout faith loses their faith through no fault of their own (say a memory disease, or a sudden brain damaging accident etc) would they still be welcomed into heaven?

Many people in their old age suffer from memory loss that can even erase family members from ones knowledge, so it is most reasonable to think that many people of faith have died not knowing they even had any their whole life, however, owing to thing like car accidents there are also people who suffer massive brain loss much earlier in life, and they may have 20, 30 or more years to 'refind' that faith, if they don't, are they to be judged the same or differently from those suffering the effects of aging? And if not, then where is the line to be drawn?

Ofcourse it is impossible in any sense to have a 'right' answer, but I think having an opinion of the right answer is interesting enough to hear.

Once a person is saved in the Christian faith it requires no mainenence. believe/askforgiveness/be saved=that's it. You're in.

[fj1200]

Please explain. Buddhism doesn't have a scorecard.

Positive karma... negative karma...

[gabosaurus]

It's no problem if anyone loses their memory. God never loses his. God sees everyone as who they truly are, not as the person they think they are.

[Noir]

It's no problem if anyone loses their memory. God never loses his. God sees everyone as who they truly are, not as the person they think they are.

That is to say, we are not what we think and feel? That's a very bold statement. And a very unnerving one IMO.

[PostmodernProphet]

That is to say, we are not what we think and feel? That's a very bold statement. And a very unnerving one IMO.

you posited a situation in which what a person is thinking and feeling is affected by a mental abnormality.....it is more unnerving to say one should be judged on the basis of that abnormality....

[fj1200]

That is to say, we are not what we think and feel? That's a very bold statement. And a very unnerving one IMO.

Why do your religion threads seem to have a "gotcha" feel to them?

[Kathianne]

Why do your religion threads seem to have a "gotcha" feel to them?

Could that be?

[Wind Song]

Positive karma... negative karma...


No, it doesn't work that way. It has to do with which karma ripens when.