Retributive versus Restorative Justice

[Wind Song]

Can some crime victims be better served through restorative justice? I say yes.


http://www.cscsb.org/restorative_justice/retribution_vs_restoration.html

[cadet]

As gooshy and lovey dovey as this sounds, I think it's a bad idea.
yes, i'm all for the first one, "Crime is an act against another person and the community" and not just the comunity.

But the rest of it is about "oh, you broke the law, don't worry, those were just guide lines, we'll help you through this."
You do the crime, you do the time. You knew your consequences when you did it. Suck it up, and meet your new roomie, Bubba.

[Wind Song]

As gooshy and lovey dovey as this sounds, I think it's a bad idea.
yes, i'm all for the first one, "Crime is an act against another person and the community" and not just the comunity.

But the rest of it is about "oh, you broke the law, don't worry, those were just guide lines, we'll help you through this."
You do the crime, you do the time. You knew your consequences when you did it. Suck it up, and meet your new roomie, Bubba.


Restorative justice benefits the victim of the crime and would be voluntary. The crime victim is empowered. Victim support and healing is emphasized. Retributive justice is an eye for an eyw.

[ConHog]

We could just do away with prisons altogether and go "eye for an eye". If you rape, you get raped. If you murder you get murdered. If you commit arson, your house gets burned down. If you steal , you get stolen from..............

That would cut down on crime...........

[Wind Song]

You sound like you favor Taliban justice, Connie.

[ConHog]

You sound like you favor Taliban justice, Connie.

Oh lawd you is sarcasm blind.

And by the way, the taliban doesn't operate that way anyway. You rape and well nothing is done...

[Wind Song]

Oh lawd you is sarcasm blind.

And by the way, the taliban doesn't operate that way anyway. You rape and well nothing is done...


If you want to live in an eye to eye justice system, move to the Middle East.

Vengeance is a matter of retaliation, of getting even with those who have hurt us. Like retribution, revenge is a response to wrongs committed against innocent victims and reflects the proportionality of the scales of justice. But revenge focuses on the personal hurt involved and typically involves anger, hatred, bitterness, and resentment.

An eye for an eye is revenge.

[ConHog]

If you want to live in an eye to eye justice system, move to the Middle East.

Vengeance is a matter of retaliation, of getting even with those who have hurt us. Like retribution, revenge is a response to wrongs committed against innocent victims and reflects the proportionality of the scales of justice. But revenge focuses on the personal hurt involved and typically involves anger, hatred, bitterness, and resentment.

An eye for an eye is revenge.


Good Lord Sky, I was JOKING. I know you yourself laugh a sense of humor so the concept is lost on you, but sheesh.

[Wind Song]

Good Lord Sky, I was JOKING. I know you yourself laugh a sense of humor so the concept is lost on you, but sheesh.

I don't know you well enough to joke around with you. I can't tell when you're joking and when you're being sarcastic.

[ConHog]

I don't know you well enough to joke around with you. I can't tell when you're joking and when you're being sarcastic.

Common sense should tell you that very few people are pro raping criminals ( I can think specifically of ONE nut from the scow who thought it was okay, no one else.) and that I was not serious.

[Wind Song]

Common sense should tell you that very few people are pro raping criminals ( I can think specifically of ONE nut from the scow who thought it was okay, no one else.) and that I was not serious.

Common sense doesn't usually prevail on message boards. I had no idea where you were coming from with the statements you made.

[Wind Song]

"According to the data, when men (but not women) watched a ["bad person"] get punished, they showed additional activation in reward related areas of the brain ... that same highway of nerves that also gets titillated by sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll. Apparently, we are engineered to get pleasure from punishing those who deserve to be punished."

The goal of justice is not to get rid of evil people -- it is to get rid of evil.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-geoffrey-a-mitelman/retributive-justice-and-r_b_857219.html

[Noir]

Sometimes carrot is better, sometimes stick is better, but in the majority of cases I'd say stick.

On a simalar note, one thing I *hate* is those people (idk if they do it in America, but they do it here) who are award gifts/holidays because they use to be 'bad' and are now 'good'. Because seemingly people like myself who pay for these holidays, and who were never 'bad' in the first place get, er, nothing.

[ConHog]

"According to the data, when men (but not women) watched a ["bad person"] get punished, they showed additional activation in reward related areas of the brain ... that same highway of nerves that also gets titillated by sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll. Apparently, we are engineered to get pleasure from punishing those who deserve to be punished."

The goal of justice is not to get rid of evil people -- it is to get rid of evil.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-geoffrey-a-mitelman/retributive-justice-and-r_b_857219.html

Well, this would explain why I get wood when I spank my wife. :laugh2:

[Wind Song]

Sometimes carrot is better, sometimes stick is better, but in the majority of cases I'd say stick.

On a simalar note, one thing I *hate* is those people (idk if they do it in America, but they do it here) who are award gifts/holidays because they use to be 'bad' and are now 'good'. Because seemingly people like myself who pay for these holidays, and who were never 'bad' in the first place get, er, nothing.


Punishment and reward are forms of manipulation.

[Noir]

Punishment and reward are forms of manipulation.

IMO rewarding people who were 'bad' for being 'good' for a while is a punishment for those who were never 'bad' in the first place.

[Wind Song]

If my child is not picking up the room and I say, “You are lazy,” lazy is an enemy image. If my life partner is not meeting my needs for intimacy and I say, “You are insensitive to my needs,” insensitive to my needs is an enemy image. When we say that some people are “terrorists,” that’s an enemy image. Enemy images turn people into things. When we see the other person as a monster, all we want to do is to punish them. This type of language disconnects us from what’s alive in one another, disconnects us from life.

Marshall Rosenberg



http://www.inquiringmind.com/Articles/Peacemaker.html

[Wind Song]

"Most people refer to violence as physically trying to hurt another. We also consider violence any use of power over people, trying to coerce people into doing things. That would include any use of punishment and reward, any use of guilt, shame, duty and obligation. Violence in this larger sense is any use of force to coerce people to do things. Violence is any system that discriminates against people and prevents equal access to resources and justice to all people.


Moralistic judgments are those built on an old fashioned theology that implies the human beings are very lazy, evil and violent. Therefore the corrective process is penitence. You have to make them hate themselves for what they’ve done, to believe that they deserve to suffer for what they’ve done.
The paradigm shift is away from that to a shift of judging in terms of whether things serve life or not. And if they don’t, to create the quality of connection between people that helps people to enjoy contributing to one another’s well-being."


Marshall Rosenberg

http://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/freeresources/article_archive/michael_mendizza_mbr.htm

[Noir]

If my child is not picking up the room and I say, “You are lazy,” lazy is an enemy image. If my life partner is not meeting my needs for intimacy and I say, “You are insensitive to my needs,” insensitive to my needs is an enemy image. When we say that some people are “terrorists,” that’s an enemy image. Enemy images turn people into things. When we see the other person as a monster, all we want to do is to punish them. This type of language disconnects us from what’s alive in one another, disconnects us from life.

Marshall Rosenberg



http://www.inquiringmind.com/Articles/Peacemaker.html

...so what exactly does Marshall say to someone who is being lazy when they want to make them aware of it?

[Wind Song]

...so what exactly does Marshall say to someone who is being lazy when they want to make them aware of it?


Instead of using the label, "lazy", which has a judgment implied, you merely describe what you'd like the person to do, not what you don't want them to do or what you think they are.

Example: I'd like you to put your clothes in the laundry basket or closet. Then you tell the person how it will meet their needs and your needs to do so.

[Noir]

Instead of using the label, "lazy", which has a judgment implied, you merely describe what you'd like the person to do, not what you don't want them to do or what you think they are.

Example: I'd like you to put your clothes in the laundry basket or closet. Then you tell the person how it will meet their needs and your needs to do so.

Right, and the next day when you find that they haven't done it (because they're lazy) then what, you explain it to them again, making sure not to do anything that may offend or imply that thy are anything less that great?

[gabosaurus]

We could just do away with prisons altogether and go "eye for an eye". If you rape, you get raped. If you murder you get murdered. If you commit arson, your house gets burned down. If you steal , you get stolen from..............

That would cut down on crime...........

Strangely enough, this is one of the primary concepts of Sharia Law. I would support it being imposed for rapists and drunk drivers. :cool:

[DragonStryk72]

I don't know you well enough to joke around with you. I can't tell when you're joking and when you're being sarcastic.

Here's a thought:

If he's saying something so outlandish as to beggar belief, it's probably sarcasm. Now me, I generally use [/sarcasm] to give a direct visual for the slow

[DragonStryk72]

Right, and the next day when you find that they haven't done it (because they're lazy) then what, you explain it to them again, making sure not to do anything that may offend or imply that thy are anything less that great?

Right, and then the next day when you find that they haven't done it (because they're lazy) then what, you explain it to them again, making sure not to do anything that may offend or imply that they are anything less than great?

[Wind Song]

Right, and the next day when you find that they haven't done it (because they're lazy) then what, you explain it to them again, making sure not to do anything that may offend or imply that thy are anything less that great?

I'm telling you that NVC applied to child rearing is more effective than punishment and reward. That's my opinion.

[Wind Song]

Here's a thought:

If he's saying something so outlandish as to beggar belief, it's probably sarcasm. Now me, I generally use [/sarcasm] to give a direct visual for the slow


I wouldn't know. I don't know people here very well. I didn't know you were in a violent relationship for seven years until you told me so.

[DragonStryk72]

I'm telling you that NVC applied to child rearing is more effective than punishment and reward. That's my opinion.

Well, it isn't. That's my opinion. We learn, as a species, from failure, not success. There is a line in the movie Rounders that I dearly loved: ": In "Confessions of a Winning Poker Player," Jack King said, "Few players recall big pots they have won, strange as it seems, but every player can remember with remarkable accuracy the outstanding tough beats of his career."

The flaw in the analysis of NVC is that it assumes success is success based, but it isn't. We learn by doing things wrong, by trial and error, where we go back over our results, our actions, and figure out where we went wrong and how to fix it. It's simply the nature of humanity. It also assumes that children are just little adults, and they aren't. They require boundaries, to hear and understand what they can and, just as importantly, can't do.

My little brother, Michael, is wicked smart. Seriously, I'm not bragging, because he's a pain in the about it. Anyway, when we were growing he had it explained to him by no less than 6 people not to touch the stove when it's on, cause it's hot. One day, michael just reached up and tried to grab a hot saucepan. Yeah, brilliant, but oddly, after that moment, he stopped trying to reach for things on the stove. The lesson had been taught to him by many people, but until he learned it for himself, he had no real understanding.

[Noir]

I'm telling you that NVC applied to child rearing is more effective than punishment and reward. That's my opinion.

Well then tell me how to rear a child NVC...

We've already established that
-this child is lazy (though we dare not say it) when it comes to cleaning his room.
-He has been sat down, told what he should do -clean up- and told how everyone wins of he does.
-Next day the child has still not cleaned his room, because he's youknowwhat...what now?

[DragonStryk72]

I wouldn't know. I don't know people here very well. I didn't know you were in a violent relationship for seven years until you told me so.

Oh I was beat up as a kid. Sure, at first it was one on one, but at a certain point, that's just not worth it with me. So it became three on one, two guys holding me while another kid beat me. I actually have reduced vision in my left eye from one fight.

[Wind Song]

Well, it isn't. That's my opinion. We learn, as a species, from failure, not success. There is a line in the movie Rounders that I dearly loved: ": In "Confessions of a Winning Poker Player," Jack King said, "Few players recall big pots they have won, strange as it seems, but every player can remember with remarkable accuracy the outstanding tough beats of his career."

The flaw in the analysis of NVC is that it assumes success is success based, but it isn't. We learn by doing things wrong, by trial and error, where we go back over our results, our actions, and figure out where we went wrong and how to fix it. It's simply the nature of humanity. It also assumes that children are just little adults, and they aren't. They require boundaries, to hear and understand what they can and, just as importantly, can't do.

My little brother, Michael, is wicked smart. Seriously, I'm not bragging, because he's a pain in the about it. Anyway, when we were growing he had it explained to him by no less than 6 people not to touch the stove when it's on, cause it's hot. One day, michael just reached up and tried to grab a hot saucepan. Yeah, brilliant, but oddly, after that moment, he stopped trying to reach for things on the stove. The lesson had been taught to him by many people, but until he learned it for himself, he had no real understanding.

OK. You have your opinion. I have mine.

[ConHog]

OK. You have your opinion. I have mine.

you have either never been a parent or were a shitty parent if you never used fear to motivate your kids. fear of whatever.. Even the threat of taking away the Nintendo is still a threat and kids need and want that type of correction. They have friends, they needs parents. I'm 41 and momma can still give me that look and that's that.

[Wind Song]

you have either never been a parent or were a shitty parent if you never used fear to motivate your kids. fear of whatever.. Even the threat of taking away the Nintendo is still a threat and kids need and want that type of correction. They have friends, they needs parents. I'm 41 and momma can still give me that look and that's that.

That's coercion, IMO.

That form of parenting was extremely abusive for me when I was growing up. My foster parent, (my aunt), used threats, humiliation, physical abuse, torture, the silent treatment, whatever desperate measures she could find to break my spirit.

I will NEVER allow anyone to treat me that way again. I am always looking for ways to work with my own anger and the anger of others in order to prevent violence.

Please keep in mind, that dissing someone's family is against the TOS. What that means, is I am allowed to talk about my family and tell the truth about them, but you are not allowed to use that information against me.

I can't stop anyone from doing what they do, but I can request that you respect my self-disclosure.

[DragonStryk72]

That's coercion, IMO.

That form of parenting was extremely abusive for me when I was growing up. My foster parent, (my aunt), used threats, humiliation, physical abuse, torture, the silent treatment, whatever desperate measures she could find to break my spirit.

I will NEVER allow anyone to treat me that way again. I am always looking for ways to work with my own anger and the anger of others in order to prevent violence.

See, but that's throwing the baby out with the bath water, WS. If she really went over the line like that, then yes, she was a horrible parent, but that doesn't put my mom in the same boat. That woman could glare through walls, floors, and ceilings, I swear to you. I've been slapped, grounded, and put on projects, like building paths out at Rotary Scout camp by her, but it was never abusive.

I one time came home at 4 in the morning, with my curfew being at 11, and I actually got out of trouble with the following sentence, "I know I'm screwed, and yes, I'm aware I'm five hours late for curfew, and yes I have a good explanation for it, but no, I can't give it to you. Chris will be here tomorrow to explain."

There's a difference between abuse, and appropriate punishment for wrongdoing. There is a middle ground to be had.

[Wind Song]

See, but that's throwing the baby out with the bath water, WS. If she really went over the line like that, then yes, she was a horrible parent, but that doesn't put my mom in the same boat. That woman could glare through walls, floors, and ceilings, I swear to you. I've been slapped, grounded, and put on projects, like building paths out at Rotary Scout camp by her, but it was never abusive.

I one time came home at 4 in the morning, with my curfew being at 11, and I actually got out of trouble with the following sentence, "I know I'm screwed, and yes, I'm aware I'm five hours late for curfew, and yes I have a good explanation for it, but no, I can't give it to you. Chris will be here tomorrow to explain."

There's a difference between abuse, and appropriate punishment for wrongdoing. There is a middle ground to be had.

Your mom and my aunt are two different people. I don't believe in punishment or reward. They are both coercive.

If I were to repeat the things that woman said to me that stuck to me as a small child you would be horrified.

[SassyLady]

I'm telling you that NVC applied to child rearing is more effective than punishment and reward. That's my opinion.

You might have mentioned this before, but do you have children Wind Song? Are you using this method currently? Is this what you are basing your opinion on?

[Kathianne]

You might have mentioned this before, but do you have children Wind Song? Are you using this method currently? Is this what you are basing your opinion on?

Will she still back a few weeks or months from now? Doubt we'll know the answer until time passes, it's her latest 'kick.' When she knows more about it, her take may change.

The problem with a glance at something.

[Wind Song]

You might have mentioned this before, but do you have children Wind Song? Are you using this method currently? Is this what you are basing your opinion on?


Yes, I'm using this method currently. Little by little. Mainly it's on the idea stage.

[Kathianne]

Yes, I'm using this method currently. Little by little. Mainly it's on the idea stage.

Does this replace Buddhism? New Age? Wiccan?

[Wind Song]

Oh I was beat up as a kid. Sure, at first it was one on one, but at a certain point, that's just not worth it with me. So it became three on one, two guys holding me while another kid beat me. I actually have reduced vision in my left eye from one fight.

I'm sorry to hear that.

[Wind Song]

Well then tell me how to rear a child NVC...

We've already established that
-this child is lazy (though we dare not say it) when it comes to cleaning his room.
-He has been sat down, told what he should do -clean up- and told how everyone wins of he does.
-Next day the child has still not cleaned his room, because he's youknowwhat...what now?


I refer to you the Bay Area NVC program. There are a ton of youtube trainings on it for parents.

[ConHog]

I refer to you the Bay Area NVC program. There are a ton of youtube trainings on it for parents.

Seriously, youtube parenting?

[SassyLady]

Well, it isn't. That's my opinion. We learn, as a species, from failure, not success. There is a line in the movie Rounders that I dearly loved: ": In "Confessions of a Winning Poker Player," Jack King said, "Few players recall big pots they have won, strange as it seems, but every player can remember with remarkable accuracy the outstanding tough beats of his career."

The flaw in the analysis of NVC is that it assumes success is success based, but it isn't. We learn by doing things wrong, by trial and error, where we go back over our results, our actions, and figure out where we went wrong and how to fix it. It's simply the nature of humanity. It also assumes that children are just little adults, and they aren't. They require boundaries, to hear and understand what they can and, just as importantly, can't do.

My little brother, Michael, is wicked smart. Seriously, I'm not bragging, because he's a pain in the about it. Anyway, when we were growing he had it explained to him by no less than 6 people not to touch the stove when it's on, cause it's hot. One day, michael just reached up and tried to grab a hot saucepan. Yeah, brilliant, but oddly, after that moment, he stopped trying to reach for things on the stove. The lesson had been taught to him by many people, but until he learned it for himself, he had no real understanding.

I have to agree with you on NVC. It is a good tool to incorporate into a parent's toolkit, but it shouldn't be the only tool.

DS - my daughter was the same as your brother .. I told her it was "hot" but until she actually touched it she had no idea what "hot" entailed. Some things have to be learned through experience to give the full picture....from that person's perspective and not just from the teacher's perspective.

[Wind Song]

Seriously, youtube parenting?


There are all kinds of excellent trainings on youtube.

[DragonStryk72]

Your mom and my aunt are two different people. I don't believe in punishment or reward. They are both coercive.

If I were to repeat the things that woman said to me that stuck to me as a small child you would be horrified.

So you're never going to say "good job" or "I'm proud of you" to your kid? Cause those were huge rewards to me when I was a kid. Again, baby and bathwater, WS.

Anything positive that occurs after your kid does something is a reward, any punishment after your kid does something is a punisment. If you so much as shout "NO!" when you see your kid putting his hand into a fire is a punishment, because the kid knows you're upset at something he/she did. To say that you're somehow going never use punishment or reward is naive, WS, and the only thing you'll accomplish in the end is making your kid completely unprepared for life. They aren't little adults, they don't reason like we do, and they need a parent, and well-defined boundaries.

Scenario: Your kid hits another kid. You do your thing, and your kid hits the same kid again the next day. At what point do you start telling your kid that hitting people is wrong?

[Wind Song]

So you're never going to say "good job" or "I'm proud of you" to your kid? Cause those were huge rewards to me when I was a kid. Again, baby and bathwater, WS.

Anything positive that occurs after your kid does something is a reward, any punishment after your kid does something is a punisment. If you so much as shout "NO!" when you see your kid putting his hand into a fire is a punishment, because the kid knows you're upset at something he/she did. To say that you're somehow going never use punishment or reward is naive, WS, and the only thing you'll accomplish in the end is making your kid completely unprepared for life. They aren't little adults, they don't reason like we do, and they need a parent, and well-defined boundaries.

Scenario: Your kid hits another kid. You do your thing, and your kid hits the same kid again the next day. At what point do you start telling your kid that hitting people is wrong?

If you emphasize meeting your child's needs and your needs, there is less need for demands.

[DragonStryk72]

If you emphasize meeting your child's needs and your needs, there is less need for demands.

In other words, you let you kid set his hand on fire?

[Wind Song]

In other words, you let you kid set his hand on fire?

No.

[DragonStryk72]

OK. You have your opinion. I have mine.

If you wanted to have a debate about NVC, I started one, and you chose this line. I gave example and a counterpoint. So why did you dismiss it so easily?

[DragonStryk72]

No.

But that's a negative word, WS. And if you have any hope of saying that quickly enough to stop your kid from putting his hand in the fire, you're gonna have to shout it to get his attention, which will be taken as punishment, as him/her doing something wrong.

[Wind Song]

But that's a negative word, WS. And if you have any hope of saying that quickly enough to stop your kid from putting his hand in the fire, you're gonna have to shout it to get his attention, which will be taken as punishment, as him/her doing something wrong.

Check it out sometime. The Bay Area NVC program puts on a television show and most tapes of it are on youtube.

Great parenting stuff.

[Toro]

I'm all for this.

After the criminal has spent many years in jail.

[Wind Song]

I'm all for this.

After the criminal has spent many years in jail.


So far, it isn't replacing the retributive system and is primarily used with juvenile offenders and misdemeanors.

[Wind Song]

I'd like to see this forum apply restorative justice.

[fj1200]

I'd like to see this forum apply restorative justice.

Who is the offender and who are the victims?

[logroller]

Who is the offender and who are the victims?

Trick question; they are one in the same.

[tailfins]

I'm going to "serious up" and give a serious reply:

Criminal justice should focus on two things:
1) Separate convicts from society so they can do no more harm
2) Minimize the recidivism rate

I'm opposed to justice simply extracting retribution. The point is to maximize public safety.

[Kathianne]

I'm going to "serious up" and give a serious reply:

Criminal justice should focus on two things:
1) Separate convicts from society so they can do no more harm
2) Minimize the recidivism rate

I'm opposed to justice simply extracting retribution. The point is to maximize public safety.

#1 is easy, with the right jury.

#2? Not so much. You have suggestions? Sociologists, Psychologists have failed. When it comes to the most heinous of crimes, psychiatrists too have failed, regardless of FBI training.

[tailfins]

#1 is easy, with the right jury.

#2? Not so much. You have suggestions? Sociologists, Psychologists have failed. When it comes to the most heinous of crimes, psychiatrists too have failed, regardless of FBI training.

As it stands now, prisons are just Thug University. What if they focused more on supervision than punishment? I don't see how substandard food and a "you're here to suffer" mentality helps anything.

[SassyLady]

As it stands now, prisons are just Thug University. What if they focused more on supervision than punishment? I don't see how substandard food and a "you're here to suffer" mentality helps anything.

Oh, you mean they are not really there to suffer for their crimes? If not, then why are they there?

[logroller]

Oh, you mean they are not really there to suffer for their crimes? If not, then why are they there?

Think he's referring to the prison culture that many career criminals grow fond of. That it's not really a punishment for some; just a club for criminals who've no interest in reforming.

[SassyLady]

Think he's referring to the prison culture that many career criminals grow fond of. That it's not really a punishment for some; just a club for criminals who've no interest in reforming.

Oh. Well, if they have no interest in reforming, why are we so worried about it?

[logroller]

Oh. Well, if they have no interest in reforming, why are we so worried about it?
Skittles and ice tea, you say?
Well, I think its part of a broader social critique. That the high prison populations are suggestive of our culture's view of criminal offenders as permanently badged. That once convicted, they are forever banished as lesser people. The idea being, a system of justice isn't limited to the system; it's part of our culture. That when you have a retributive system, it's a cycle with negative feedback; high recidivism and heighten severity of crimes and thus punishments. Whereas a restorative system would seek to root out the causes of the criminal acts and restore conditions which would be less likely to invite criminal acts.

[SassyLady]

Whereas a restorative system would seek to root out the causes of the criminal acts and restore conditions which would be less likely to invite criminal acts.

Well, if there are no laws that would root out the major cause of criminal acts.

I must be tired today (we cut down five huge acacia trees today) - what type of conditions would be less likely to invite a criminal act?

[logroller]

Well, if there are no laws that would root out the major cause of criminal acts.

I must be tired today (we cut down five huge acacia trees today) - what type of conditions would be less likely to invite a criminal act?

That's a good question; not sure I know there's one answer. Stable home life for one; but plenty of people manage not commit crimes who've had a rough upbringing.

[tailfins]

Oh, you mean they are not really there to suffer for their crimes? If not, then why are they there?

They are there to protect the public and deny them access to the public.


Skittles and ice tea, you say?
Well, I think its part of a broader social critique. That the high prison populations are suggestive of our culture's view of criminal offenders as permanently badged. That once convicted, they are forever banished as lesser people. The idea being, a system of justice isn't limited to the system; it's part of our culture. That when you have a retributive system, it's a cycle with negative feedback; high recidivism and heighten severity of crimes and thus punishments. Whereas a restorative system would seek to root out the causes of the criminal acts and restore conditions which would be less likely to invite criminal acts.

It boils down to two statistics:
1) Crime rate
2) Recidivism rate

In the South where they "get tough" on crime, they fail badly on both. New England has a very low crime rate.

[logroller]

They are there to protect the public and deny them access to the public.



It boils down to two statistics:
1) Crime rate
2) Recidivism rate

In the South where they "get tough" on crime, they fail badly on both. New England has a very low crime rate.

Perhaps the South should send their criminals to massachusetts...

[Missileman]

As it stands now, prisons are just Thug University. What if they focused more on supervision than punishment? I don't see how substandard food and a "you're here to suffer" mentality helps anything.

The threat of going to prison should act as a deterrent. Prison should be a totally unpleasant experience. Feed them nutritious but unenjoyable meals and WORK their asses off from sunup until sundown on weekdays and offer education on the weekends.

[tailfins]

Perhaps the South should send their criminals to massachusetts...

In spite of your sarcasm, incentives exist for just that. Criminal record discrimination laws here are among the toughest in the nation. It's unlawful to even ask about an applicant's criminal record before an interview. A new law that went into effect this month was designed to put private background check companies out of business. If a company exclusively uses CORI, they have a liability shield. However CORI often misses out-of-state convictions.

The "dregs" of one society can be wildly successful in another. Many of those involved in the Mariel boat lift became productive US citizens.

[logroller]

The threat of going to prison should act as a deterrent. Prison should be a totally unpleasant experience. Feed them nutritious but unenjoyable meals and WORK their asses off from sunup until sundown on weekdays and offer education on the weekends.

I know it should act as a deterrent, but what explains when it doesn't? I think it the social treatment outside of prison once released; that they're treated as criminals, (which they are), and this treatment increases their propensity to commit more crimes. You know what I'm saying; that even after release, supposedly having paid their debt to society, they're still punished. That because of this they no longer see prison as punishment, but rather an acceptable, even preferable alternative.

[fj1200]

It boils down to two statistics:
1) Crime rate
2) Recidivism rate

In the South where they "get tough" on crime, they fail badly on both. New England has a very low crime rate.

The crime rate isn't necessarily dependent on the other but much of the South does appear to have a lower recidivism rate than New England. GA, AL, and MS are all lower than CT, MA, and NH so aren't "failing" on the recidivism aspect.
http://i.usatoday.net/news/pdf/Pew%20Center%20on%20the%20States,%20PSPP%20Recidiv ism%20Report.pdf

I would look at other factors in comparing crime rates.

[logroller]

The crime rate isn't necessarily dependent on the other but much of the South does appear to have a lower recidivism rate than New England. GA, AL, and MS are all lower than CT, MA, and NH so aren't "failing" on the recidivism aspect.
http://i.usatoday.net/news/pdf/Pew%20Center%20on%20the%20States,%20PSPP%20Recidiv ism%20Report.pdf

I would look at other factors in comparing crime rates.

Level of education and racial demographics perhaps... that's right, I said it. :slap:

[tailfins]

Level of education and racial demographics perhaps... that's right, I said it. :slap:

Educational attainment might be a good statistic to consider when determining a place to live. I'm amazed that the racial statistic is available at sites such as epodunk, with all of the political correctness these days.