Jack Chick tracts, who here have read 'em?

[tailfins]

They are written from a Fundamental Baptist perspective and pull no punches:

http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractCustomkeywordlookup.asp

Here is one about Buddhism:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0016/0016_01.asp

And Catholicism:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5023/5023_01.asp

And Islam:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1031/1031_01.asp

Here is one that says "Hate is not a family value"! God destroyed a who city because of Homosexuality.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0273/0273_01.asp

And Hinduism
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0070/0070_01.asp

[Noir]

I'm sure they're great reads to Fundamental Baptists, and not much else to most else people.

[logroller]

Total fail: too many words in those cartoons, and fundamental baptists don't read:poke:

[DragonStryk72]

They are written from a Fundamental Baptist perspective and pull no punches:

http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractCustomkeywordlookup.asp

Here is one about Buddhism:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0016/0016_01.asp

And Catholicism:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5023/5023_01.asp

And Islam:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1031/1031_01.asp

Here is one that says "Hate is not a family value"! God destroyed a who city because of Homosexuality.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0273/0273_01.asp

And Hinduism
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0070/0070_01.asp

You forgot the one about the D&D!

[darin]

I used to hand those out in Elementary school! Wasn't until I broke free of religious indoctrination that I understood the stupidity of some of the techniques contained therein.

[tailfins]

I used to hand those out in Elementary school! Wasn't until I broke free of religious indoctrination that I understood the stupidity of some of the techniques contained therein.

I separate it out into theory and practice. The tracts start with a solid Biblical premise then take it places that are incendiary. I'm sure it's easy to find scripture advising people not to witness by provocation.

[darin]

I separate it out into theory and practice. The tracts start with a solid Biblical premise then take it places that are incendiary. I'm sure it's easy to find scripture advising people not to witness by provocation.

absolutely. Some folks want to shame/scare folks to God. As if living one's life trying to know their creator NEEDS some sort of, I dunno...threat? Trying to understand God is its own reward. :)

[DragonStryk72]

Gotta love that Catholicism is one of the paths to hell, somehow. Never mind the Our Fathers, the big crucifix, or the Easter Celebrations, we're not "real" Christians.

And if the Chick Tracks were true, that means Peter went to hell. Yup, seriously, since he founded Catholicism, and the Catholic Church, he would go to hell as a Catholic.

[tailfins]

Gotta love that Catholicism is one of the paths to hell, somehow. Never mind the Our Fathers, the big crucifix, or the Easter Celebrations, we're not "real" Christians.

And if the Chick Tracks were true, that means Peter went to hell. Yup, seriously, since he founded Catholicism, and the Catholic Church, he would go to hell as a Catholic.

Threads like this can go on for ten years, so I will just make this a resource-based response. The Fundamentalist response is that a false interpretation of scripture presents Peter as founder of Catholicism.

[DragonStryk72]

Threads like this can go on for ten years, so I will just make this a resource-based response. The Fundamentalist response is that a false interpretation of scripture presents Peter as founder of Catholicism.

lol, yeah, they would. I'm reminded of Liar Liar, "I object!"

"On What grounds?"

"It's devastating to my case!"

[darin]

Gotta love that Catholicism is one of the paths to hell, somehow. Never mind the Our Fathers, the big crucifix, or the Easter Celebrations, we're not "real" Christians.

And if the Chick Tracks were true, that means Peter went to hell. Yup, seriously, since he founded Catholicism, and the Catholic Church, he would go to hell as a Catholic.

Well...to be honest...a lot of what catholics practice today, and in the past, isn't necessarily written in scripture. See: Martin Luther. :)

having said that, I wonder if folks will be surprised at the number of Muslims, Atheists, and Democrats in heaven. :)

[DragonStryk72]

And lest we forget, according to the Chick Tracts, the D&D books all have no shit, real spells in them.

[darin]

And lest we forget, according to the Chick Tracts, the D&D books all have no shit, real spells in them.

I only wish. If that were true, I'd have had more tail in Highschool. :D

[DragonStryk72]

Well...to be honest...a lot of what catholics practice today, and in the past, isn't necessarily written in scripture. See: Martin Luther. :)

having said that, I wonder if folks will be surprised at the number of Muslims, Atheists, and Democrats in heaven. :)

lol, yeah, I always sort of sit going, "There's a difference between being incorrect, and going to hell."

Yeah, but the important core, which supposedly they support, is that accepting Jesus as your savior is the way into heaven, and somehow, us catholics believe in the wrong Jesus apparently.

[DragonStryk72]

I only wish. If that were true, I'd have had more tail in Highschool. :D

Dear God, do you have any idea the service projects I could have swung with just the Plant Growth spell? Or could you imagine a group of six teenage boys loose in high school with a spell call Mass Suggestion?

[tailfins]

lol, yeah, they would. I'm reminded of Liar Liar, "I object!"

"On What grounds?"

"It's devastating to my case!"

I'm here mostly for entertainment. Staring at code all day can grind on you after awhile. I guess I could go strolling around the office and catch up on the latest scheme to curry favor with the executives. On second thought, I will stay right here. I want to avoid what my associates back in the College Republicans referred to "psychological masturbation". I would watch people spend days on tedious theological discussions. It was about as enjoyable as a root canal.



Well...to be honest...a lot of what catholics practice today, and in the past, isn't necessarily written in scripture. See: Martin Luther. :)

having said that, I wonder if folks will be surprised at the number of Muslims, Atheists, and Democrats in heaven. :)

OK, Democrats I get: Even heaven needs a Court Jester. I don't see how Mohammad or self-salvation can get one into heaven.

[darin]

OK, Democrats I get: Even heaven needs a Court Jester. I don't see how Mohammad or self-salvation can get one into heaven.

because Christ calls people to God, right? Christ = God, too, though, right?

I'm saying I believe God entirely possible of a lot of stuff: Revelation of Himself to people without use of the Anglo "Jesus". I'm thinking Christ's "payment" for our sins covers all mankind; even those, perhaps, not having read the Bible. God is pretty BIG. His ways of drawing people to Him are his own.

[revelarts]

ok
i'll take up for Chick for a minute or 2 i've got here


absolutely. Some folks want to shame/scare folks to God. As if living one's life trying to know their creator NEEDS some sort of, I dunno...threat? Trying to understand God is its own reward. :) Sure it is but it's not the whole story dmp.



In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


was John too harsh... yes or no?
can we repeat what he said to people are are we just to live it out and hope folks catch on?

Jesus said that there was no prophet greater than John.


...5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him (JOHN) in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which brings not forth good fruit is cut down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire....


was John judging here? doh!
cast into fire?!!
what?
Unquenchable fire?!?
that's not nice John? Why did the Prophet feel the need to threaten, almost sounds like a chick tract.

Jesus changed all that talk right??
uh no.

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
repent? You mean people need to change? Why? Becuase the kingdom of heaven is at hand? Is Jesus trying to scare people?
what you talkin bout Jesus?!


Matthew 13:
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


What?! Devils , angels , fires?!! Is Jesus trying to scare people again here.

nooo, of course not:rolleyes: Devil doesn't mean devil, Angel doesn't mean angel, fire doesn't mean fire, wailing doesn't mean wailing, and END of the world doesn't mean end of the world. All us wise modern folks know that. (but Judge means Judge that's for sure)


those chick tracts are just silly, WHERE do they GET that stuff?!!! Head Shake here.


What about the Apostles and other Bible writers?


2 Thessalonians:
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



2 Peter:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Revelation 20
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire

Whats going on here all of the apostles and Church fathers talking about Hell and such,
that's just not nice.

But it seems it may be true.
here's the thing, in the Bible truth and love are not to separated. the truth often is harsh and ugly but God in love provides GOOD NEWS, that we do not have to suffer the harsh Trurth that Jesus and all of his disiples spoke of.
living a life of kindness and worship is a part of disiplship as well but the message isn't that Jesus died for nice descent folks that are looking for God so they could be nicer, don't judge nobody yall.
the message is that everybody is a dirty law breaker with a death sentence to hell becuse we deserve it. and that Jesus died to paid the fine for our crimes and we are now completely innocent in God's sight IF we believe the message that Jesus is our salvation and king. Living a decent lives thereafter is extra credit.

the Good news is not a God thinks everone and every religion are fine, just be a little nicer and think of me from time to time.

It's


14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words....: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. ...
32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” 4....

John 3:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
....
.... I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me.



Chick Tracts may not be culturally charming. Or give the full story, to say the least, but they seem to get the core new testament message about right.

It doesn't matter what religious forms ,Buddhist, Hindu, Catholic, Protestant, or labels you put on it.
the core message of the gospel is Believe on Jesus Christ. Many like to leave off or soft sell the "or else" implied but the Bible makes it clear,
scary or not , Jesus says it's part of the truth.

[Kathianne]

I've found many evangelicals of ma many Protestant vein bullies. Their way or the highway.

[revelarts]

I've found many evangelicals of ma many Protestant vein bullies. Their way or the highway.

there's no doubt many are bullies, and not very kind. And sure some folks want to hold tight over minor items like methods of baptism,
but how is someone suppose to honest read the words of Jesus here and say anything other it's his way or the Highway?


John 3:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
....
.... I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me.


What do the words mean when you read them? Do you see other religions or gods or a soft sell in this case.
some times Jesus's approach is soft and mild , at least once he whipped people with cords to stop them from cheating people.
HIS way or the Highway. Called some folks vipers, told the woman at the well that she had to many husbands, in a kind and gentle way.

it seems to me the primary question we have to ask is,
Is it true?

if all roads but 1 lead off a cliff don't we WANT to know that? Even if the the person telling us is a jerk.

[tailfins]

Chick Tracts may not be culturally charming. Or give the full story, to say the least, but they seem to get the core new testament message about right.

It doesn't matter what religious forms ,Buddhist, Hindu, Catholic, Protestant, or labels you put on it.
the core message of the gospel is Believe on Jesus Christ. Many like to leave off or soft sell the "or else" implied but the Bible makes it clear,
scary or not , Jesus says it's part of the truth.

I would but the Jack Chick tracts in context of Ecclesiastes 3:

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven.

[Kathianne]

there's no doubt many are bullies, and not very kind. And sure some folks want to hold tight over minor items like methods of baptism,
but how is someone suppose to honest read the words of Jesus here and say anything other it's his way or the Highway?

What do the words mean when you read them? Do you see other religions or gods or a soft sell in this case.
some times Jesus's approach is soft and mild , at least once he whipped people with cords to stop them from cheating people.
HIS way or the Highway. Called some folks vipers, told the woman at the well that she had to many husbands, in a kind and gentle way.

it seems to me the primary question we have to ask is,
Is it true?

if all roads but 1 lead off a cliff don't we WANT to know that? Even if the the person telling us is a jerk.

Acknowledging to being bullies, while claiming the one true path is a joke. Seriously, you all need to get a life. You claim to know more than Jesus, when he was on Earth.

[darin]

indu, Catholic, Protestant, or labels you put on it.
the core message of the gospel is Believe on Jesus Christ. Many like to leave off or soft sell the "or else" implied but the Bible makes it clear,
scary or not , Jesus says it's part of the truth.

I suppose I'd have to ask you - what's more important the truth as your particular version of the bible describes, or helping the lost find love, joy, and comfort in Christ Jesus?

I think I believe a LOT with Keith Green regarding heaven and hell and 'who goes' to heaven.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix8ddosjg-k

More from Keith: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc5wINcJcH0

You show me one person who "accepted Christ" out of fear of Hell, and I'll show you somebody who probably misses the mark; because a 'fear of hell' is is not love of christ. Its akin to what's going on in North Korea. People sing the praises of the leadership out of fear. Where there is fear, or the motive of selfish preservation, there cannot be love.

[Kathianne]

Thread proof, SOME think they are privvy to the mind of God. My guess, and it's only that, they're wrong.

[revelarts]

Acknowledging to being bullies, while claiming the one true path is a joke. Seriously, you all need to get a life. You claim to know more than Jesus, when he was on Earth.

Why is it a joke.
If a bully says the sky is blue and it is the Bully is right.

But you didn't answer my question about the words of Jesus what is YOUR honest assessment of HIS words.

I don't claim to know more than God, but I don't claim to Know better than what Jesus taught either.

If Jesus Says he's the only way, who am I to argue. if you read those passages differently or have others that modify what seems to be a clear statement please let me know.

but calling people bullies for believing what Jesus seems to clearly have said doesn't seem quite fair kathianne.


What do his words say to you? Am I being disingenuous with HIS words? I didn't make them up i just read them and repeat, then get called a bully and narrow minded for it.

[revelarts]

I suppose I'd have to ask you - what's more important the truth as your particular version of the bible describes, or helping the lost find love, joy, and comfort in Christ Jesus?
well you know DMP it's Not "my particular version" I think you read the same book. I hope all the passages i quoted are still in yours too. I mean I quoted Jesus, John the Baptist, Jude, John, Peter, and Paul. How am i making up a version?

But to answer your question, Why do we chose between either, he says both are vital?
That's my point. it's a package deal. The Love of Christ is shed aboard to ..sinners.
Before you can truly comfort you have to save. Not much comfort if one is still bound for destruction but you feel a little loved. Our Love is born out of gratitude for his sacrifice , what was the sacrifice for? All of our earthly discomforts and emotional pains mainly? While those are eased often he also say that we and his followers would suffer earthly discomforts as well. that the "rain would fall" on us as well as everyone else. some would even be torture for his name. But the final reward is in Heaven, that's where the final comfort is, the full joy. I don't know about you but DMP but i've still got issues, most of the Christians and non Christians i know have them.

Concerning fear v Love, I know this much by experience, that BOTH the love and the fear of the Lord have kept me out of trouble. And encouraged me to do the right things.
Often i want to do right out of gratitude, awe and love but sometimes I've done right out of fear. Not the fear of Hell, that's taken care of. the fear of the living loving God who i don't want to disappoint or piss off.

Maybe I'm unique in that, but i doubt it.




I think I believe a LOT with Keith Green regarding heaven and hell and 'who goes' to heaven.

More from Keith: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc5wINcJcH0


keith green is very cool
you might want to take a look at what he said about the gospel.
"What's Wrong With the Gospel?" (http://www.revival-library.org/leadership/sp_green_whats.php)


http://www.revival-library.org/leadership/sp_green_whats.php



You show me one person who "accepted Christ" out of fear of Hell, and I'll show you somebody who probably misses the mark; because a 'fear of hell' is is not love of Christ. Its akin to what's going on in North Korea. People sing the praises of the leadership out of fear. Where there is fear, or the motive of selfish preservation, there cannot be love.
I'd say If ALL they saw was an escape hatch from hell and not a living and loving God that Created them to LIFE. then yes that person has missed God. the WHOLE story needs to be told.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom..."

[DragonStryk72]

Chick Tracts may not be culturally charming. Or give the full story, to say the least, but they seem to get the core new testament message about right.

Really? I didn't know that Christ talked about playing pretend with dice as being a hell-worthy trespass? OR being Catholic, which if the only requirement is "accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior", seems to have been pretty much.

As to the core message, it always seemed to me that "Judge Not, Be Judged Not", "Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone", "Love Your Enemy" were closer to what Christ was trying to get across, that dogmatic religion is exactly what God didnt want, hence the whole sending Jesus to break up the Pharisees. It always seemed to me like he was advocating for a quieter personal faith.

[darin]

well you know DMP it's Not "my particular version" I think you read the same book. I hope all the passages i quoted are still in yours too. I mean I quoted Jesus, John the Baptist, Jude, John, Peter, and Paul. How am i making up a version?

You are taking for granted you've quoted those men accurately, and in context. I don't believe you are making up a version, I'm referencing the version you are using - whichever it is.



But to answer your question, Why do we chose between either, he says both are vital?

Between fear and love? No, no...only LOVE is vital.



That's my point. it's a package deal. The Love of Christ is shed aboard to ..sinners.
Before you can truly comfort you have to save. Not much comfort if one is still bound for destruction but you feel a little loved. Our Love is born out of gratitude for his sacrifice , what was the sacrifice for? All of our earthly discomforts and emotional pains mainly? While those are eased often he also say that we and his followers would suffer earthly discomforts as well. that the "rain would fall" on us as well as everyone else. some would even be torture for his name. But the final reward is in Heaven, that's where the final comfort is, the full joy. I don't know about you but dmp but i've still got issues, most of the Christians and non Christians i know have them.

But...we are already saved. Yelling at people, telling them how terrible they are won't establish a relationship with them to the point they'll give a shit about God. While most-certainly we have physical and emotional discomfort - I'm not arguing against that - I'm saying the whole entire point of God isn't our eternal soul necessarily, singularly, but so we may have life here on earth to the fullest-extent possible.


Concerning fear v Love, I know this much by experience, that BOTH the love and the fear of the Lord have kept me out of trouble. And encouraged me to do the right things.

You might be confusing 'fear' with 'respect'. Those words can mean close to the same thing - but trying to 'convert the hearts' of people by scare tactics isn't converting their heart - they won't care about SAVING their heart; only their ass. If that. Generally, it'll simply turn people off to whatever message you intend them to hear.



Often i want to do right out of gratitude, awe and love but sometimes I've done right out of fear. Not the fear of Hell, that's taken care of. the fear of the living loving God who i don't want to disappoint or piss off.

Maybe I'm unique in that, but i doubt it.


I don't have that sort of relationship with God whatsoever. I NEVER worry about pissing Him off because I believe he is SO FAR above being pissed off - coupled with the fact He isn't bound by our measures of Time; Thus, nothing I can do will EVER surprise him. Because God can see and be with me at ANY point in time, there's no measure of pissed-off, or angry at where I am or what I'm doing, because God has already been there with me, because at this "point in time" He is also at THAT point in time with me, trying to get me to use Him for help; helping me use whatever I'm going through Then or previously to create within me more love for Him and People.


keith green is very cool
you might want to take a look at what he said about the gospel.
"What's Wrong With the Gospel?" (http://www.revival-library.org/leadership/sp_green_whats.php)


http://www.revival-library.org/leadership/sp_green_whats.php

I've read that. :)



I'd say If ALL they saw was an escape hatch from hell and not a living and loving God that Created them to LIFE. then yes that person has missed God. the WHOLE story needs to be told.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom..."

You're misconstruing what "Fear" means in that verse.

Re: Version of the bible:



Amplified: 7The reverent and worshipful fear of the Lord is the beginning and the principal and choice part of knowledge [its starting point and its essence];

Contemporary English: Respect and obey the Lord! This is the beginning of knowledge.

Good News Translation: 7 To have knowledge, you must first have reverence for the Lord.

The Message: 7 Start with God—the first step in learning is bowing down to God;
only fools thumb their noses at such wisdom and learning.

New Century: 7 Knowledge begins with respect for the Lord

New International Reader's Version:
7 If you really want to gain knowledge, you must begin by having respect for the Lord.

Wycliffe: 7 The dread of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; (The fear of the Lord/Reverence for the Lord is the beginning of wisdom)





My point rests here: Knowing God is Way Bigger than either parts or the Entirety of what we have in the Bible. Things we once thought we understood now seem foolish at worst, misguided at best.

I used to attend what I think is my favourite church ever. The pastor presented this gem:

"Believers build a bridge to Jesus when they help people see God at work, and make Him real"

If your heart pushes you towards sharing your faith, express love to people, tell them what Christ has done for you, then get into the particulars of scripture.

Most-important aspect of the Bible, regardless of which parts people choose, or which parts people understand a certain way? Helping folks find their Creator.

[avatar4321]

Ive read someof them before. I can honestly say I havent seen one that wasnt total crap. If you are going to preach, then atleast try to be accurate.

Let's focus on the Gospel of truth. If you have to lie to support your position then you have to be either completely insecure in your position or teaching lies.

[revelarts]

You are taking for granted you've quoted those men accurately, and in context. I don't believe you are making up a version, I'm referencing the version you are using - whichever it is.

I haven't taking the meaning out of context.
The King James Version,



Between fear and love? No, no...only LOVE is vital.
Jesus said don't remove a jot , it's all vital.



But...we are already saved.
??? who's we?
What does saved mean to you?



Yelling at people, telling them how terrible they are won't establish a relationship with them to the point they'll give a shit about God. While most-certainly we have physical and emotional discomfort - I'm not arguing against that - I'm saying the whole entire point of God isn't our eternal soul necessarily, singularly, but so we may have life here on earth to the fullest-extent possible.
why do you keep saying that's the ONLY thing I'm promoting. And who said anything about yelling. I sounds like you don't want to mention Hell, or sin or Heaven or eternal life AT all.
that's not the WHOLE story. and frankly it's a LIE to say that's what the Jesus, Peter Paul and the Apostles REALLY meant for us to focus on.

Paul went so far to say that,
"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."

DMP I'm not saying that God doesn't want use to have decent lives and peace of mind and heart and Joy here, he DOES ABSOLUTELY. But to be dismissive of eternal life is disingenuous to the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.

It may not be fashionable or comfortable to everyone but Jesus never said it would be he said some would Hate the messengers just as some Hated him "...because I testify that its works are evil." John 7:7



You might be confusing 'fear' with 'respect'. Those words can mean close to the same thing - but trying to 'convert the hearts' of people by scare tactics isn't converting their heart - they won't care about SAVING their heart; only their ass. If that. Generally, it'll simply turn people off to whatever message you intend them to hear. hmm, Someone accused me of knowing better than God.
DMP I can only go by what Jesus and his disciples said and did, pop psych be hanged. It seems to me that they they knew best and they all preach the love of God and men, the Resurrection, Jesus as Savior and Lord and judgment to come.
Jesus said whosover will may come, he never said everyone like the message.






My point rests here: Knowing God is Way Bigger than either parts or the Entirety of what we have in the Bible.
Again , people have accused me here of knowing MORE of God's mind than God. How
do YOU have any idea that God is Way bigger than what the Bible says , Didn't you mention that you haven't read it all? I think the God Of the Bible is WAY bigger than people assume that he is. the characature made up by people who don't like/understand/want a God as revealed in outline by scripture.


Things we once thought we understood now seem foolish at worst, misguided at best.
Did the Bible Change? Or did we? What do we know better now that changes anything significantly?



I used to attend what I think is my favourite church ever. The pastor presented this gem:
"Believers build a bridge to Jesus when they help people see God at work, and make Him real"
that's a very fine statement , but not the whole story.


If your heart pushes you towards sharing your faith, express love to people, tell them what Christ has done for you, then get into the particulars of scripture.
Most-important aspect of the Bible, regardless of which parts people choose, or which parts people understand a certain way? Helping folks find their Creator.
yes find him as creator, but as savior as well.


Acts: 13
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

DMP Recently I read the whole book of Acts
I think if we both to review that book and see what Peter and the Apostles said to people as they spread the word about Jesus Christ We'd probably find common ground. I'd hope neither of us would claim to know better than they what they should or should Not have been saying to people.

[darin]

I haven't taking the meaning out of context.
The King James Version,

I think that's the first problem. KJV is terrible. :( Nobody talks like that - JESUS didn't talk like that. :) I think you're taking the meaning of those verses from a few posts ago out of context because you aren't attempting to explain the total message being delivered. I mean, I could point you to where the Bible says "There is no God." - Sure, its accurate, but without understanding to whom the message is sent, their social-cultural situations, and the various translations of words...its not a complete picture of what God is trying to tell folk.


Jesus said don't remove a jot , it's all vital.

I wonder how much, if any, Constantine removed?



??? who's we?
What does saved mean to you?

Humanity = We. Christ's substitutional atonement covered our sin; bridged the gap between our hearts and God. "Saved" doesn't mean anything to me because nobody alive has experienced it. Until the moment of 'being with God' or 'being apart from God' we're not 'saved' from anything. By Grace - grace, that which makes life unfair - we are saved.



why do you keep saying that's the ONLY thing I'm promoting. And who said anything about yelling. I sounds like you don't want to mention Hell, or sin or Heaven or eternal life AT all.
that's not the WHOLE story. and frankly it's a LIE to say that's what the Jesus, Peter Paul and the Apostles REALLY meant for us to focus on.

I'm not saying YOU are promoting. I'm saying 'people' promote. People who scream 'Fire and Brimstone' don't communicate nor relate to people. Christ never preached that to those who needed him/were open to him. I say we take HIS approach towards our witness.



Paul went so far to say that,
"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."

DMP I'm not saying that God doesn't want use to have decent lives and peace of mind and heart and Joy here, he DOES ABSOLUTELY. But to be dismissive of eternal life is disingenuous to the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.

I don't dismiss eternal life - but I don't love God for what he can give me.


It may not be fashionable or comfortable to everyone but Jesus never said it would be he said some would Hate the messengers just as some Hated him "...because I testify that its works are evil." John 7:7

The importance of Christ's message is greater than anything. Greater than 'being right' or 'proving a point'. Sure there are truths behind Hell. Using those truths on the lost generally drive them farther away.


hmm, Someone accused me of knowing better than God.

You don't think I'm doing that, do you? I hope not.



DMP I can only go by what Jesus and his disciples said and did, pop psych be hanged. It seems to me that they they knew best and they all preach the love of God and men, the Resurrection, Jesus as Savior and Lord and judgment to come.
Jesus said whosover will may come, he never said everyone like the message.

They preached to their audience. Bar none, Christ never approached anyone who would hear him with ANYTHING but gentleness.


Again , people have accused me here of knowing MORE of God's mind than God. How
do YOU have any idea that God is Way bigger than what the Bible says , Didn't you mention that you haven't read it all? I think the God Of the Bible is WAY bigger than people assume that he is. the characature made up by people who don't like/understand/want a God as revealed in outline by scripture.

Of course God is bigger than the Bible. No, no, I've read through the bible, and use it frequently to find inspiration or clarification - but the very fact God can and does and has "saved" people (or brought them to Himself) WITHOUT the Bible proves very much his Bigness. Keep in mind, NONE of the disciples had the Bible; nor did those who were writing it likely KNOW they were 'writing the bible' - which was not canonized until what? hundreds of years after their deaths? Thousands in some cases.


Did the Bible Change? Or did we? What do we know better now that changes anything significantly?

We change in our understanding. Every christian who seeks to know the heart of God grows. The things they once didn't understand, or barely understood become clear. Or...in some cases, changed.



that's a very fine statement , but not the whole story.

Perhaps - but its the single most-important part of the story. I look at the Bible as NOT 'the specific words used' - but "What God wants us to KNOW about his nature. Concepts and ideals and guidance. Not 'letter of the law' - because if we go 'letter of the law' we have to take into account the intended audience of the author. The men who wrote did so from their perspectives and their norms. "What they are trying to tell the reader" is vastly more important than what "scholars, throughout time have decided the author meant".


yes find him as creator, but as savior as well.

But Father - most important.



dmp - Recently I read the whole book of Acts
I think if we both to review that book and see what Peter and the Apostles said to people as they spread the word about Jesus Christ We'd probably find common ground. I'd hope neither of us would claim to know better than they what they should or should Not have been saying to people.

I know they used the type of message; their technique, to fit their audience. I know those in the book of Acts spoke to people in a way the people would understand and hear - and when that didn't work, God changed their words - their message - into one the listeners could digest (tongues episode, etc).

That right that is what i think is the most-vital. Having the truth doesn't matter. Telling somebody the truth doesn't matter. Helping THEM see and recognize the truth trumps all.

[tailfins]

You forgot the one about the D&D!

I wasn't ignoring your comment; just had to think it over a couple of days. Just because you call demons doesn't guarantee they will do what you want when they get there. They already have their master.

[DragonStryk72]

I wasn't ignoring your comment; just had to think it over a couple of days. Just because you call demons doesn't guarantee they will do what you want when they get there. They already have their master.

Lol, now Gary Gygax did put a lot of info in there, but demon summoning somehow got left out. Actually, you couldn't possibly use the D&D books to so much as make your toast land butter-side down magically.

[revelarts]

I think that's the first problem. KJV is terrible. :( Nobody talks like that - JESUS didn't talk like that. :) I think you're taking the meaning of those verses from a few posts ago out of context because you aren't attempting to explain the total message being delivered. I mean, I could point you to where the Bible says "There is no God." - Sure, its accurate, but without understanding to whom the message is sent, their social-cultural situations, and the various translations of words...its not a complete picture of what God is trying to tell folk.

I wonder how much, if any, Constantine removed?

Humanity = We. Christ's substitutional atonement covered our sin; bridged the gap between our hearts and God. "Saved" doesn't mean anything to me because nobody alive has experienced it. Until the moment of 'being with God' or 'being apart from God' we're not 'saved' from anything. By Grace - grace, that which makes life unfair - we are saved.

I'm not saying YOU are promoting. I'm saying 'people' promote. People who scream 'Fire and Brimstone' don't communicate nor relate to people. Christ never preached that to those who needed him/were open to him. I say we take HIS approach towards our witness.

I don't dismiss eternal life - but I don't love God for what he can give me.

The importance of Christ's message is greater than anything. Greater than 'being right' or 'proving a point'. Sure there are truths behind Hell. Using those truths on the lost generally drive them farther away.

You don't think I'm doing that, do you? I hope not.

They preached to their audience. Bar none, Christ never approached anyone who would hear him with ANYTHING but gentleness.

Of course God is bigger than the Bible. No, no, I've read through the bible, and use it frequently to find inspiration or clarification - but the very fact God can and does and has "saved" people (or brought them to Himself) WITHOUT the Bible proves very much his Bigness. Keep in mind, NONE of the disciples had the Bible; nor did those who were writing it likely KNOW they were 'writing the bible' - which was not canonized until what? hundreds of years after their deaths? Thousands in some cases.

We change in our understanding. Every christian who seeks to know the heart of God grows. The things they once didn't understand, or barely understood become clear. Or...in some cases, changed.

Perhaps - but its the single most-important part of the story. I look at the Bible as NOT 'the specific words used' - but "What God wants us to KNOW about his nature. Concepts and ideals and guidance. Not 'letter of the law' - because if we go 'letter of the law' we have to take into account the intended audience of the author. The men who wrote did so from their perspectives and their norms. "What they are trying to tell the reader" is vastly more important than what "scholars, throughout time have decided the author meant".

But Father - most important.

I know they used the type of message; their technique, to fit their audience. I know those in the book of Acts spoke to people in a way the people would understand and hear - and when that didn't work, God changed their words - their message - into one the listeners could digest (tongues episode, etc).

That right that is what i think is the most-vital. Having the truth doesn't matter. Telling somebody the truth doesn't matter. Helping THEM see and recognize the truth trumps all.

DMP, your a slippery fish bro.

ummm.

"but Father - most Important"
most important yes BUT you can't get to father except through the son.

I think this is where we MIGHT - i say might-- be missing each other.
I get the impression from your above that you think God is wozzily putting a message out in the ether that He loves everybody. that the content of the gospel is not REALLY important. All we REALLY need is love and if they get that through Jesus ...or a nice old lady with "God" in her face or deed, a tree or whatever ... it's Ok as long as they find God, the father who loves them but who doesn't really need to say ANYTHING about heaven or hell, or judgment , Because it's really not important, LIFE ON EARTH NOW IS WHAT REALLY MATTERS, (despite what they said in the 1st century, we know better) and because people are different now than then. Somehow, i guess smarter? More mature? Less brutish? I dunno, than the 1st century people. Ida Amin, Hilter, Skin heads, muslim extremist and WWF fans notwithstanding. Overall we are better and DON"T NEED to hear about Judgment AND Love, just the love part and the Father part because I guess You and your pastors saw that people responded better to the Dale Carnegie brand of the gospel TODAY. I guess that wouldn't have worked in the 1st century on those lunk headed brutes like Paul, or stoic philosophers or shepards. Even though they got the exact same CONTENT in tongues when Peter spoke. A Sermon based on the OLD testament Scriptures declaring that Jesus rose from the dead for their salvation. a salvation I think you did not describe.

Originally Posted by Peter 14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words....: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. ...
32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” 4....



look it up in other translations if you like but be aware that half of the versions you used in an earlier post were NOT Translations, many in their intros tell you that they are Paraphrases or free translations, not sticking to Strictly to the original text, more trying to get .. the Flavor , as they understand it. And those translators if you look at their backgrounds tended to be theologically liberal. It's been shown they have edited more to their theological taste. Thankfully there are tons of manuscripts from the 1 century onward that have been reviewed to correct those edits. You may want look a version that are "literal" translations rather than liberal paraphrases.

concerning the KJV I never said that Jesus or anyone talked like that it doesn't bother me, the CONTENT of the words rather than the style of speaking is whats important it seems. (Funny that you don't think 'the specific words used' are NOT THAT IMPORTANT but you gripe about the KJV what gives?!?) i just use it because I've remembered verses in the KJV wording, so now its the only way I can find things. I can post NIV or NAS or Doundy if you like, but never "the message". the amplified is good but kinda wordy... like me.
However The broad gospel message will still come across as the love of God , Jesus as savoir of the world, the only way to the father and Judgement to come.

that content is the gospel, I'm not sure how youv'e come to the idea that content doesn't matter you obviously think SOME content is important. just NOT the specific Content JESUS used. Because it's BAD.. today. Sorry I'm just not bold enough to correct Jesus.

you and you pastors know that people have changed.
That we should never raise our voices, Or tell people they are wrong (unless they are democrats) that they have..sins... that need forgiving or "judge" (some how THAT specific word still applies literally. but are you Judging my judging)
And finally mainly most importantly and really only, that God only wants to talk about Love now.
Well DMP , I never got the memo, a lot of Christians didn't, were kinda stuck using the specific words he and the Apostles and Prophets used. It's the best we can do.
I think God Might be able to find a way to use it.

[Wind Song]

Great thread. I've got brand new insights to a few posters. Really I had not idea the average poster on this forum is in to this stuff.

[revelarts]

Really? I didn't know that Christ talked about playing pretend with dice as being a hell-worthy trespass? OR being Catholic, which if the only requirement is "accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior", seems to have been pretty much.

Like i said they don't really tell the whole story or put the best face on there targets,

But I wonder I think it might be a good thread to take a chick track apart page by page to check it's content.
Maybe I'll start it late tonight.




...As to the core message, it always seemed to me that "Judge Not, Be Judged Not", "Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone", "Love Your Enemy" were closer to what Christ was trying to get across, that dogmatic religion is exactly what God didnt want, hence the whole sending Jesus to break up the Pharisees. It always seemed to me like he was advocating for a quieter personal faith.
yeah sure all that you mentioned is definitely part of what he was trying to do.
(BTW after he ask people to cast the 1st stone he told the woman "go and SIN NO MORE" was that judging ? I think so and telling her what to do to boot, how to live her life, to STOP sinning.)

But Jesus didn't die on the cross to cover peoples judging, but to die for our sins, murder, lying cheating etc etc and which opened our way to heaven

[revelarts]

A man dies and goes to heaven. St. Peter meets him at the pearly gates.

St. Peter says, "Here's how it works. You need 100 points to make it into heaven. You tell me all the good things you've done, and I give you a certain number of points for each item, depending on how good it was. When you reach 100 points, you get in."

"Okay" the man says, "I attended church every Sunday"
"That's good, says St. Peter, " that's worth two points"

"Two points?" he says. "Well, I gave 10% of all my earnings to the church"
"Well, let's see," answers Peter, "that's worth another 2 points. Did you do anything else?"

"Two points? Golly. How about this: I started a soup kitchen in my city and worked in a shelter for homeless veterans."
"Fantastic, that's certainly worth a point, " he says.

"hmmm...," the man says, "I was married to the same woman for 50 years and never cheated on her, even in my heart."
"That's wonderful," says St. Peter, "that's worth three points!"

"THREE POINTS!!" the man cries, "At this rate the only way I get into heaven is by the grace of God!"

"Come on in!"

[Wind Song]

Like i said they don't really tell the whole story or put the best face on there targets,

But I wonder I think it might be a good thread to take a chick track apart page by page to check it's content.
Maybe I'll start it late tonight.



yeah sure all that you mentioned is definitely part of what he was trying to do.
(BTW after he ask people to cast the 1st stone he told the woman "go and SIN NO MORE" was that judging ? I think so and telling her what to do to boot, how to live her life, to STOP sinning.)

But Jesus didn't die on the cross to cover peoples judging, but to die for our sins, murder, lying cheating etc etc and which opened our way to heaven


What do Jack Chick tracts do for you, revel? Do they help with your faith?

As a non-Christian/(Buddhist), it's never made sense to me that Jesus was dying on the cross for other people's sins. It doesn't work that way in Buddhism. We have to purify our own karma, no one else can do it.

I get the impression that you're a fan of Jack Chick tracts. Is that correct? What is it about them that appeals to you?

[darin]

I think this is where we MIGHT - i say might-- be missing each other.
I get the impression from your above that you think God is wozzily putting a message out in the ether that He loves everybody. that the content of the gospel is not REALLY important. All we REALLY need is love and if they get that through Jesus ...or a nice old lady with "God" in her face or deed, a tree or whatever ... it's Ok as long as they find God, the father who loves them but who doesn't really need to say ANYTHING about heaven or hell, or judgment , Because it's really not important, LIFE ON EARTH NOW IS WHAT REALLY MATTERS, (despite what they said in the 1st century, we know better) and because people are different now than then. Somehow, i guess smarter? More mature? Less brutish? I dunno, than the 1st century people. Ida Amin, Hilter, Skin heads, muslim extremist and WWF fans notwithstanding. Overall we are better and DON"T NEED to hear about Judgment AND Love, just the love part and the Father part because I guess You and your pastors saw that people responded better to the Dale Carnegie brand of the gospel TODAY. I guess that wouldn't have worked in the 1st century on those lunk headed brutes like Paul, or stoic philosophers or shepards. Even though they got the exact same CONTENT in tongues when Peter spoke. A Sermon based on the OLD testament Scriptures declaring that Jesus rose from the dead for their salvation. a salvation I think you did not describe. look it up in other translations if you like but be aware that half of the versions you used in an earlier post were NOT Translations, many in their intros tell you that they are Paraphrases or free translations, not sticking to Strictly to the original text, more trying to get .. the Flavor , as they understand it. And those translators if you look at their backgrounds tended to be theologically liberal. It's been shown they have edited more to their theological taste. Thankfully there are tons of manuscripts from the 1 century onward that have been reviewed to correct those edits. You may want look a version that are "literal" translations rather than liberal paraphrases.

I guess what I'm saying is - Folks need to find God; for their benefit more than God's. I wholly believe Christ's atonement extends to those who never hear His message. Plant yourself on an island; without any of our bibles floating around - and Christ can and probably would draw you to God in SOME way. The singular bottom-line is this: Find and Love God.

As to hell and judgement and whatnot; I'm not convinced (nor do I ultimately care) if eternal hell exists. Of the scriptures I posted, the ONLY paraphrase is The Message. The rest are editions brought forth by best-guess/educated analysis of the original manuscripts.

I think the flavor is the most-important part, however. "What God is saying" is much more important than target-fixating upon the words used by the various scribes and translators. God's message is more important than what Constantine and others decided - for various reasons - what should be in the bible.



Some of the original manuscript translations differ on exactly what hell/death really means. Because of that, I don't give a shit, frankly, if Hell happens or not. See, to me, 'conversion' via 'intimidation' isn't conversion at all. As I said, the person who modifies their behaviour for fear of punishment hasn't changed anything. They have not been renewed in spirit. They have not been born-again. They are like dogs wearing e-collars; the person 'converted because they dont want to go to hell' only behaves because of the pain of disobedience. That's not love. That's not relationship with our Creator.



concerning the KJV I never said that Jesus or anyone talked like that it doesn't bother me, the CONTENT of the words rather than the style of speaking is whats important it seems. (Funny that you don't think 'the specific words used' are NOT THAT IMPORTANT but you gripe about the KJV what gives?!?) i just use it because I've remembered verses in the KJV wording, so now its the only way I can find things. I can post NIV or NAS or Doundy if you like, but never "the message". the amplified is good but kinda wordy... like me.
However The broad gospel message will still come across as the love of God , Jesus as savoir of the world, the only way to the father and Judgement to come.

I'm saying folks worship the KJV - not saying you do. I'm saying KJV is terrible because it puts itself away from people of today.



that content is the gospel, I'm not sure how youv'e come to the idea that content doesn't matter you obviously think SOME content is important. just NOT the specific Content JESUS used. Because it's BAD.. today. Sorry I'm just not bold enough to correct Jesus.


I don't think Content doesn't matter - I'm saying content applied within context IS the matter. That's the key. People in many religions snip content from context and preach entire sermons on it. When you remove context from the content, you betray the intent of the author. Very specific instruction, for instance, God gave a group of people does NOT apply universally. Thus, taking specific instructions and trying to apply them to every believer is probably sin at worst; misguided at best.



you and you pastors know that people have changed.
That we should never raise our voices, Or tell people they are wrong (unless they are democrats) that they have..sins... that need forgiving or "judge" (some how THAT specific word still applies literally. but are you Judging my judging)
And finally mainly most importantly and really only, that God only wants to talk about Love now.
Well dmp , I never got the memo, a lot of Christians didn't, were kinda stuck using the specific words he and the Apostles and Prophets used. It's the best we can do.
I think God Might be able to find a way to use it.

I don't have any pastors.

God might find a way to use ANYTHING. That's a truism. In fact, God is not beyond using folks' SIN to draw them and others to Himself. To a better, non-wasted life (jab at Noir from the T-shirt thread).

I think we're stuck doing one thing - and that one thing IS the best we can do: Loving people. Not excusing their attitudes or conditions, but loving them. Being and Doing kindness without regard for their 'religion'. Treating people as precious; important where they are. Perhaps the quickest way to lose any positive influence on people is to point out their wrongs. In fact, the lesson Christ taught was treat the "sinner" softer, and with more kindness than any of the religious people of the day. I can't recall one instance of Christ lashing out at those who need him most; only against those who proclaimed godliness. While loving somebody; ministering to them - If that person makes the conscious choice for Christ, all the better - but that prompting, ultimately comes from God.

[tailfins]

After giving it several days of thought, it dawned on me where the more incendiary Jack Chick tracts are useful. It came to me when considering how many Fundamental Baptists in the North haven't been there for generations like in the South. I see a noticeable number of angry ex-Catholics. I don't know, maybe they were falsely accused of stealing from the collection plate or whatever, I don't ask. I can see where an angry ex-Catholic could see one of Jack Chick's more incendiary tracts and say "Right-on! That's for me".