Rejecting the Victim Label: Women Activists

[Wind Song]

If your impression of an Afghan woman is of a shapeless, frightened form engulfed in yards of heat-trapping fabric, you haven’t met Shafiqa Quraishi.
Make that Colonel Quraishi, who earned her title as one of 900-plus female members of the Afghan National Police.

Quraishi, who today is director of Gender, Human, and Child Rights within the Afghan Ministry of the Interior, was one of nine women in town to receive the International Women of Courage Award from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

She and fellow Afghan award recipient Shukria Asil sat down Thursday for lunch and conversation with members of the U.S.-Afghan Women’s Council to discuss ways to help women and children struggling for rights and security.

Whatever you think you know about Afghanistan, the reality is probably far better – and far worse. And though burqas are still worn by many, they are less visible these days on city streets as women assume new roles.

Speaking through translators, the two women reiterated a dominant theme during several days of events honoring brave women around the world.
“We are not victims.”
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/mar/14/female-leaders-resist-victim-label/

[darin]

Does her gender matter to her accomplishments?

[Wind Song]

Does her gender matter to her accomplishments?

Considering how women are treated in Afghanistan, I would say so.

[Anton Chigurh]

Understand the difference between a "label" and a definition.

[jimnyc]

What would happen to Ms. Quraishi is she went to Saudi Arabia without being completely covered? Or Iran? Or if the Taliban get control back?

Bravo to this woman, seriously. But there's going to need to be a LOT more changes in Islam before women are considered equals or "free" of abuse.

[Wind Song]

What would happen to Ms. Quraishi is she went to Saudi Arabia without being completely covered? Or Iran? Or if the Taliban get control back?

Bravo to this woman, seriously. But there's going to need to be a LOT more changes in Islam before women are considered equals or "free" of abuse.


The point is that this brave woman is willing to die in order to get the rights she deserves. There is nothing "victim" about her at all. I think the "victim" label is misused a lot.

[tailfins]

I think the "victim" label is misused a lot.

I've been a victim of your insufferable drivel.

[jimnyc]

The point is that this brave woman is willing to die in order to get the rights she deserves. There is nothing "victim" about her at all. I think the "victim" label is misused a lot.

I think the term is used when appropriate. You're correct, she does not sound like a victim in her setting. But the overwhelming majority of women in Islam, outside of the US, are in fact victims of abuse.

[Wind Song]

I think the term is used when appropriate. You're correct, she does not sound like a victim in her setting. But the overwhelming majority of women in Islam, outside of the US, are in fact victims of abuse.


Bull. You want to label an entire populace as "victim" by virtue of gender alone. That's a misuse of the term.

[jimnyc]

Bull. You want to label an entire populace as "victim" by virtue of gender alone. That's a misuse of the term.

No, I said majority, not all. For example, in Egypt, 86% of women admit to being abused and nearly 60% of the men admit to the abuse. Wouldn't you say those women are victims?

[Wind Song]

No, I said majority, not all. For example, in Egypt, 86% of women admit to being abused and nearly 60% of the men admit to the abuse. Wouldn't you say those women are victims?

No, I do not call an entire populace "victim" by virtue of being born female.

[jimnyc]

No, I do not call an entire populace "victim" by virtue of being born female.

Do you not read? Where did I ever say "entire"? And male or female, if you are physically abused, you are a victim. In this case, it's the majority of women in Egypt that I mention. You simply CAN'T deny it as even the women themselves in Egypt admit to it.

[Wind Song]

Do you not read? Where did I ever say "entire"? And male or female, if you are physically abused, you are a victim. In this case, it's the majority of women in Egypt that I mention. You simply CAN'T deny it as even the women themselves in Egypt admit to it.


I would argue that it is inappropriate to label anyone a victim as if that is what the persons are. The victim term is consistently misused. It's a label and it doesn't reflect the true state or worth of a human being.

[jimnyc]

I would argue that it is inappropriate to label anyone a victim as if that is what the persons are. The victim term is consistently misused.

Well, that's your issue. In the context of this discussion, Islamic women that are abused by Muslim men ARE victims of abuse.

[Wind Song]

Well, that's your issue. In the context of this discussion, Islamic women that are abused by Muslim men ARE victims of abuse.

They aren't victims. They are disempowered women.

[jimnyc]

They aren't victims. They are disempowered women.

Fine, they aren't victims of the abuse they receive then, I guess they asked for their beatings. Women need a little smacking around here and there to stay in line anyway.

[Wind Song]

Fine, they aren't victims of the abuse they receive then, I guess they asked for their beatings. Women need a little smacking around here and there to stay in line anyway.

That is so you, Jim.

[jimnyc]

That is so you, Jim.

And the women who are stoned or hung aren't victims either, just not empowered. I'm glad I was wrong, I didn't realize there was so little abuse in Islam.

And so the same must be true everywhere. I'm glad women in America aren't victims of domestic violence. We just need to empower them more!

[Wind Song]

You overuse the term, Jim. You use it as a derogatory label.

[jimnyc]

You overuse the term, Jim. You use it as a derogatory label.

Saying that someone is a victim, if they are abused by a man - how the fuck is that a derogatory label?

[Abbey Marie]

No, I do not call an entire populace "victim" by virtue of being born female.

How about all the female Chinese babies who are aborted because they are female? Are they victims?

[Wind Song]

Saying that someone is a victim, if they are abused by a man - how the fuck is that a derogatory label?


You use the term incorrectly as a derogatory label often. Even in court, the term, "victim" is misused and its use debated.

[Wind Song]

How about all the female Chinese babies who are aborted because they are female? Are they victims?


Let's not make every thread about abortion.

[jimnyc]

You use the term incorrectly as a derogatory label often. Even in court, the term, "victim" is misused and its use debated.

We are talking about a Muslim woman as per the OP, not courts or other threads.

[jimnyc]

Let's not make every thread about abortion.

POT fucking kettle black. And STOP telling others what they can and cannot do.

[Abbey Marie]

Let's not make every thread about abortion.

Are they victims?

[jimnyc]

I just kicked my wife in the face. It's not abuse at all though, I would just like to see her a bit more empowered. Call it training.

[logroller]

They aren't victims. They are disempowered women.
Youre premising your opinion as fact. That's how you choose to label them; That doesn't make Jim's use of the word victim incorrect.

[Wind Song]

Consider what happens when you label someone a victim.

[logroller]

I just kicked my wife in the face. It's not abuse at all though, I would just like to see her a bit more empowered. Call it training.
Why not call it empowering her?

[jimnyc]

Consider what happens when you label someone a victim.

No thanks, I'll just continue to correctly call someone who is abused a victim of said abuse.

[Wind Song]

Youre premising your opinion as fact. That's how you choose to label them; That doesn't make Jim's use of the word victim incorrect.

What I'm trying to get at, is how the words we use affect how we feel about others. When you label someone a victim, a lot of derogatory feeling comes with it. It's dehumanizing. The person becomes THAT victim.

They become less than human. They become something pathetic that we like to distance ourselves from.

[jimnyc]

Why not call it empowering her?

Ok, the footprint on the woman's face is empowering her. Do you realize what happens if you label her a victim? WS has set me straight, no more victim for her!

[logroller]

What I'm trying to get at, is how the words we use affect how we feel about others. When you label someone a victim, a lot of derogatory feeling comes with it. It's dehumanizing. The person becomes THAT victim.

They become less than human.

Well the fact of the matter is I wouldn't have known squadouche about sringa or whatever her name is or whatever she was or wasn't a victim of had you not brought it up. That you'd attack Jim for posting what I thought was a rather heartfelt and considerate post leads me think you were being incite-ful, not insightful.

[Wind Song]

Well the fact of the matter is I wouldn't have known squadouche about sringa or whatever her name is or whatever she was or wasn't a victim of had you not brought it up. That you'd attack Jim for posting what I thought was a rather heartfelt and considerate post leads me think you were being incite-ful, not insightful.


I didn't attack Jim. Is Jim a victim? How would Jim feel about wearing the victim label?

I am making a point about the use of certain terms and how loaded they are. In the OP, I showed women who do NOT deserve to be labelled as victims. They are willing to die for their rights. they reject the victim label.

Good for them.

[logroller]

Ok, the footprint on the woman's face is empowering her. Do you realize what happens if you label her a victim? WS has set me straight, no more victim for her!
I get what she's saying; perhaps it has to do with her being labelled a victim and now she's trying to break away but still finds the victim label haunting her default behavior.







Or maybe she just needs a good spanking.

[Wind Song]

I get what she's saying; perhaps it has to do with her being labelled a victim and now she's trying to break away but still finds the victim label haunting her default behavior.







Or maybe she just needs a good spanking.


Maybe you need to have your block knocked off. I know how to swing a bat.

[logroller]

I didn't attack Jim. Is Jim a victim? How would Jim feel about wearing the victim label?.
Right, you disempowered him. Was it not you that criticized people for talking about others in the third person? How does Jim feel???? that's a question for Jim; not about him!

[logroller]

Maybe you need to have your block knocked off. I know how to swing a bat.

:mooning:

[Wind Song]

Right, you disempowered him. Was it not you that criticized people for talking about others in the third person? How does Jim feel???? that's a question for Jim; not about him!

I answered your post. You accused me of attacking Jim, and I answered that I didn't attack him. I am asking YOU the question. How do you think Jim would feel to be labeled as a victim. MY victim?

[Abbey Marie]

I didn't attack Jim. Is Jim a victim? How would Jim feel about wearing the victim label?

I am making a point about the use of certain terms and how loaded they are. In the OP, I showed women who do NOT deserve to be labelled as victims. They are willing to die for their rights. they reject the victim label.

Good for them.

You think all this woman does is to reject a label? Women of Afghanistan LIVE the role of victim. She is trying to change that. I'm not sure if she would laugh or cry at your boiling her real-life and death struggles down to a label.

[logroller]

I answered your post. You accused me of attacking Jim, and I answered that I didn't attack him. I am asking YOU the question. How do you think Jim would feel to be labeled as a victim. MY victim?
I accused you something...you denied it.

You ask me how Jim would feel about being your victim...I deny it.

[Wind Song]

You think all this woman does is to reject a label? Women of Afghanistan LIVE the role of victim. She is trying to change that. I'm not sure if she would laugh or cry at your boiling her real-life and death struggles down to a label.


This woman is no one's victim. How dare you judge her as a victim, a term she herself, correctly rejects.

[Abbey Marie]

This woman is no one's victim. How dare you judge her as a victim, a term she herself, correctly rejects.

Wind, do you know the definition of obtuse?

[Wind Song]

Wind, do you know the definition of obtuse?


Yes, that would be continuing to call the woman in the OP a victim. That would be obtuse.

[fj1200]

They aren't victims. They are disempowered women.

:laugh: Another quibbling over word choice to delay getting to the correct answer.

[fj1200]

Are they victims?

They're just disempowered... by the state.

[Wind Song]

:laugh: Another quibbling over word choice to delay getting to the correct answer.

I am addressing how words are misused.

[Abbey Marie]

Yes, that would be continuing to call the woman in the OP a victim. That would be obtuse.

Obtuse is not understanding that people are not calling this particular woman a victim; they are calling most ME women of Islam victims. A fact that makes this woman do what she does. Oh the irony.

[Abbey Marie]

They're just disempowered... by the state.

Oh those poor disempowered babies!

[fj1200]

I am addressing how words are misused.

How is it misused?



1.a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency.

2.
a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or bysome impersonal agency.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/victim

[Abbey Marie]

How about all the female Chinese babies who are aborted because they are female? Are they victims?

Still waiting for an answer to this question about victims.

[Wind Song]

Still waiting for an answer to this question about victims.


I'm not going to address the topic of abortion in this thread.

[Abbey Marie]

I'm not going to address the topic of abortion in this thread.

The topic is victimhood. Are they victims, or just labelled victims?

[Wind Song]

The topic is victimhood. Are they victims, or just labelled victims?


I'm not going there. One reason I won't go there is that we can't discuss this topic without it getting into spiritual beliefs, like karma.

Obviously, you think aborted Chinese fetuses are victims, and you want to know if I agree or not. I can't go there in that discussion with you without getting into complicated topics that we are very likely to disagree on.

I guarantee if I answered this question from my spiritual beliefs, you would be angry.

[Anton Chigurh]

There's being a victim.

And playing the victim.

[logroller]

I'm not going there. One reason I won't go there is that we can't discuss this topic without it getting into spiritual beliefs, like karma.

Obviously, you think aborted Chinese fetuses are victims, and you want to know if I agree or not. I can't go there in that discussion with you without getting into complicated topics that we are very likely to disagree on.

I guarantee if I answered this question from my spiritual beliefs, you would be angry.
Chickenshit. You just haven't figured out a way to answer the question in the negative; so you dodge it.

[Wind Song]

Chickenshit. You just haven't figured out a way to answer the question in the negative; so you dodge it.


I don't consider aborted fetuses to be victims.

[jimnyc]

I don't consider aborted fetuses to be victims.

So a life is gone. I supposed the little people are just not empowered enough to survive the vacuums or coat hangers.

[Wind Song]

So a life is gone. I supposed the little people are just not empowered enough to survive the vacuums or coat hangers.


Note. You and Abbey have high jacked this thread and made it about abortion. Off topic. There are tons of threads about abortion. Why not take your fanatical religious trip there?

[jimnyc]

Note. You and Abbey have high jacked this thread and made it about abortion. There are tons of threads about abortion. Why not take your fanatical religious trip there?

We'll discuss it right here in this thread if we like. You don't get to tell us to post elsewhere because you don't like what we counter arguments with. Please stop telling others what they should or shouldn't do and leave that for the moderators, when it's necessary.

[logroller]

So a life is gone. I supposed the little people are just not empowered enough to survive the vacuums or coat hangers.
Well it's the woman's right to choose; and they choose to abort the females and keep the males. I guess male fetuses are more empowered.

[Wind Song]

Bully your abortion posts anywhere you like then. Just don't expect me to join you.

[ConHog]

Bull. You want to label an entire populace as "victim" by virtue of gender alone. That's a misuse of the term.

Incorrect. It is a FACT that inside of Islam there are a lot of women who are abused. Pointing that fact out is NOT labeling them victims based on gender, it is labeling them victims based on the way they are treated by their religion.

[jimnyc]

Bully your abortion posts anywhere you like then. Just don't expect me to join you.

Then ignore what you don't like. It's that simple. /end of that discussion.

[Wind Song]

Then ignore what you don't like. It's that simple. /end of that discussion.


Fine with me.

[ConHog]

I don't consider aborted fetuses to be victims.

WS, words have meanings. When you're debating yovic·tim
noun \ˈvik-təm\
Definition of VICTIM
1
: a living being sacrificed to a deity or in the performance of a religious rite
2
: one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent <the schools are victims of the social system>: as a (1) : one that is injured, destroyed, or sacrificed under any of various conditions <a victim of cancer> <a victim of the auto crash> <a murder victim> (2) : one that is subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment <a frequent victim of political attacks> b : one that is tricked or duped <a con man's victim> u can't just discount an accepted definition of a word b/c you don't like the implications.


we don't have to discuss abortion of a spiritual or moral viewpoint to agree that of course fetuses fit #2 to a tee.

[Wind Song]

WS, words have meanings. When you're debating yovic·tim
noun \ˈvik-təm\
Definition of VICTIM
1
: a living being sacrificed to a deity or in the performance of a religious rite
2
: one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent <THE system social the of victims are schools>: as a (1) : one that is injured, destroyed, or sacrificed under any of various conditions <A of cancer victim><A the of victim crash auto><A victim murder>(2) : one that is subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment <A of victim attacks political frequent>b : one that is tricked or duped u can't just discount an accepted definition of a word b/c you don't like the implications.


we don't have to discuss abortion of a spiritual or moral viewpoint to agree that of course fetuses fit #2 to a tee.

I disagree. You have to have a moral viewpoint to consider an aborted fetus a victim.

[logroller]

I disagree. You have to have a moral viewpoint to consider an aborted fetus a victim.

Everyone disagrees with you.

Where does morality come into play on one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent?

An act isn't moral or immoral. Unless you believe that being aborted and being born are moral states and not physical states, then adverse affect isn't moral or immoral either. Yet again it seems you define words as no one else does.

[Wind Song]

Everyone disagrees with you.

Where does morality come into play on one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent?

An act isn't moral or immoral. Unless you believe that being aborted and being born are moral states and not physical states, then adverse affect isn't moral or immoral either. Yet again it seems you define words as no one else does.

EVERYONE doesn't disagree with me. Maybe many posters on this forum disagree with me. I don't want to discuss abortion. The anti-abortion moralists on this board INSIST on shoving that topic down everyone's throat no matter what the actually thread topic is.

I didn't want to get into the topic of abortion, the status of the fetus, or religious viewpoints. I have my own viewpoint that is informed by Buddhism and an understanding of karma.

When karma is fully understood, NO ONE is a victim.

Yes, I define many words differently than others here do. That comes from listening to many Buddhist teachings where even the title of the text is explained fully for a day before the topic is addressed. Every word is rich with meaning.

[jimnyc]

The anti-abortion moralists on this board INSIST on shoving that topic down everyone's throat no matter what the actually thread topic is.

Please stop with your accusations. Thank you.

[ConHog]

EVERYONE doesn't disagree with me. Maybe many posters on this forum disagree with me. I don't want to discuss abortion. The anti-abortion moralists on this board INSIST on shoving that topic down everyone's throat no matter what the actually thread topic is.

I didn't want to get into the topic of abortion, the status of the fetus, or religious viewpoints. I have my own viewpoint that is informed by Buddhism and an understanding of karma.

When karma is fully understood, NO ONE is a victim.

Yes, I define many words differently than others here do. That comes from listening to many Buddhist teachings where even the title of the text is explained fully for a day before the topic is addressed. Every word is rich with meaning.

I once took part in bringing home a 15 year old girl who'd been sold to a drug dealer by her step father. Tell me what karma that little girl had coming to her that she wasn't a VICTIM there.

[ConHog]

Please stop with your accusations. Thank you.

I think it's amusing that someone who shoves the lesbian agenda down everyone's throat at EVERY opportunity would complain about fair play.:laugh2:

[logroller]

EVERYONE doesn't disagree with me. Maybe many posters on this forum disagree with me. I don't want to discuss abortion. The anti-abortion moralists on this board INSIST on shoving that topic down everyone's throat no matter what the actually thread topic is.

I didn't want to get into the topic of abortion, the status of the fetus, or religious viewpoints. I have my own viewpoint that is informed by Buddhism and an understanding of karma.

When karma is fully understood, NO ONE is a victim.

Yes, I define many words differently than others here do. That comes from listening to many Buddhist teachings where even the title of the text is explained fully for a day before the topic is addressed. Every word is rich with meaning.


Yet, it in no way relates to the western meaning or the language you're communicating with right now; that's rich alright.(and by rich, I mean hard to believe) It's bullshit; not enlightenment. And by bullshit, I mean contrived. And by not enlightened, I mean not conscious of the one's surroundings.

[Wind Song]

Please stop with your accusations. Thank you.

When I suggested we leave abortion alone and stick to the topic, you more or less told me to shove it. You would discuss abortion wherever and whenever you chose.

I noticed and commented.

[jimnyc]

When I suggested we leave abortion alone and stick to the topic, you more or less told me to shove it. You would discuss abortion wherever and whenever you chose.

I noticed and commented.

Yes, as individuals, but you like to accuse entire groups. Post to the individuals replying to you and please shut the fuck up with your complaints about the board as a whole.

[jimnyc]

I think it's amusing that someone who shoves the lesbian agenda down everyone's throat at EVERY opportunity would complain about fair play.:laugh2:

Militant lesbianism = ok

Against killing babies = HUGE problem for "some"

[Wind Song]

Yet, it in no way relates to the western meaning or the language you're communicating with right now; that's rich alright.(and by rich, I mean hard to believe) It's bullshit; not enlightenment. And by bullshit, I mean contrived. And by not enlightened, I mean not conscious of the one's surroundings.


So what? I get teachings on the translation of Sanskrit, Pali and Tibetan meanings of words when discussing topics of great meaning to Buddhists, like karma.

If you want to discuss a moral topic, you really can't do that with mixed company. Christians have their own meanings to words.

For example, to a Christian, "Buddha" is a man rather than a state of being that all may attain.

Being an unplanned fetus, has consequences, depending on the karma of the pregnant woman and the karma of the fetus.

[ConHog]

Militant lesbianism = ok

Against killing babies = HUGE problem for "some"

Yup, what I said in the other thread, a lot of people only care about what THEY care about. The rights and beliefs of others? Who cares.

[ConHog]

So what? I get teachings on the translation of Sanskrit, Pali and Tibetan meanings of words when discussing topics of great meaning to Buddhists, like karma.

If you want to discuss a moral topic, you really can't do that with mixed company. Christians have their own meanings to words.

For example, to a Christian, "Buddha" is a man rather than a state of being that all may attain.

Please link to a Buddhist dictionary definition of victim and I'll be happy to consider.

[Wind Song]

Yes, as individuals, but you like to accuse entire groups. Post to the individuals replying to you and please shut the fuck up with your complaints about the board as a whole.

YOU are the one I addressed.

[jimnyc]

YOU are the one I addressed.

You addressed with a plural, about "anit-abortion moralists". But now you're clarifying this statement and telling us it was meant solely about me?

[ConHog]

You addressed with a plural, about "anit-abortion moralists". But now you're clarifying this statement and telling us it was meant solely about me?

well, you HAVE admitted to being biploar, so perhaps she meant both of you. :lol:

[jimnyc]

well, you HAVE admitted to being biploar, so perhaps she meant both of you. :lol:

Bipolar is about "highs and lows", not multiple personalities, you egghead! LOL

[Wind Song]

You addressed with a plural, about "anit-abortion moralists". But now you're clarifying this statement and telling us it was meant solely about me?

You and Abbey are anti-abortion absolute moralists. Buddhists are not moral absolutists. Ask any Buddhist teacher a question and you will hear, "it depends".

Your path, (as I understand it) over simplifies all moral decisions. It's black and white thinking. No shades of gray or nuance.

[fj1200]

No shades of gray or nuance.

There is "nuance" to life?

[jimnyc]

You and Abbey are anti-abortion absolute moralists. Buddhists are not moral absolutists. Ask any Buddhist teacher a question and you will hear, "it depends".

Your path, (as I understand it) over simplifies all moral decisions. It's black and white thinking. No shades of gray or nuance.

PLEASE don't act as if you somehow know me. You're a wackjob and the LAST person on Earth I would want speaking about me or what I do or know.

[ConHog]

Bipolar is about "highs and lows", not multiple personalities, you egghead! LOL



IT was still funny, and this board could use all the humor it can get when WS goes on one of her benders.

[jimnyc]

IT was still funny, and this board could use all the humor it can get when WS goes on one of her benders.

I know, a bender, I'm thinking alcohol is perhaps the only thing that could explain...

[Wind Song]

There is "nuance" to life?

There is nuance to consciousness. We cannot say for an absolute certainty that a fertilized egg is sentient. We can at certain points in the development of a fetus pick up brain waves.

There is NO nuance in YOUR moral values. The whole question of conscience and an individual's relationship to the divine never enters your mind on the topic of abortion. You'd never take abortion on a case by case consideration. All abortions are verbotem for you.

It's all "my way or the highway".

[fj1200]

You and Abbey are anti-abortion absolute moralists. Buddhists are not moral absolutists. Ask any Buddhist teacher a question and you will hear, "it depends".


Is it wrong if I beat my spouse?


It depends.

Or did I just discover an absolute?

[logroller]

So what? I get teachings on the translation of Sanskrit, Pali and Tibetan meanings of words when discussing topics of great meaning to Buddhists, like karma.

If you want to discuss a moral topic, you really can't do that with mixed company. Christians have their own meanings to words.

For example, to a Christian, "Buddha" is a man rather than a state of being that all may attain.

Being an unplanned fetus, has consequences, depending on the karma of the pregnant woman and the karma of the fetus.
So what you're talking about is subject to translational loss. You started a thread in English and are trying to change he meaning of those english words. That's not debate, that's obfuscation. I realize that's wholly the goal of Buddhist philosophy-- to know nothing. But this a debate site; not a Buddhist site. You'll have to understand that members here would seek preserve the founding intent; rather than muddy it.

[fj1200]

There is nuance to consciousness. We cannot say for an absolute certainty that a fertilized egg is sentient. We can at certain points in the development of a fetus pick up brain waves.

There is NO nuance in YOUR moral values. The whole question of conscience and an individual's relationship to the divine never enters your mind on the topic of abortion. You'd never take abortion on a case by case consideration. All abortions are verbotem for you.

It's all "my way or the highway".

So you'll be an absolutist regarding sentience then?

I attempted to debate the values last week but your response was lacking.

[jimnyc]

So what you're talking about is subject to translational loss. You started a thread in English and are trying to change he meaning of those english words. That's not debate, that's obfuscation. I realize that's wholly the goal of Buddhist philosophy-- to know nothing. But this a debate site; not a Buddhist site. You'll have to understand that members here would seek preserve the founding intent; rather than muddy it.

I see what you did here too! It's the beginning of a joke, and the reply that will be forthcoming is the punch line! :lol:

[ConHog]

Hey Windsong, for you


3460

[Wind Song]

Or did I just discover an absolute?


Your way of thinking is moral absolutism. Buddhists are not moral absolutists.

[Wind Song]

So you'll be an absolutist regarding sentience then?

I attempted to debate the values last week but your response was lacking.

No, I'm not an absolutist.

[ConHog]

I once took part in bringing home a 15 year old girl who'd been sold to a drug dealer by her step father. Tell me what karma that little girl had coming to her that she wasn't a VICTIM there.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you didn't see this post WS.

HOW was this girl NOT a victim?

[logroller]

No, I'm not an absolutist.
How can you be absolutely sure about that?

[fj1200]

No, I'm not an absolutist.

Should marriage be reserved to heterosexuals?


It depends.

[jimnyc]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you didn't see this post WS.

HOW was this girl NOT a victim?

The 15yr old is just not empowered. How DARE you label her as a victim.

[Wind Song]

So what you're talking about is subject to translational loss. You started a thread in English and are trying to change he meaning of those english words. That's not debate, that's obfuscation. I realize that's wholly the goal of Buddhist philosophy-- to know nothing. But this a debate site; not a Buddhist site. You'll have to understand that members here would seek preserve the founding intent; rather than muddy it.


First of all, if you scroll back, you will see that Abbey tried to turn this thread into a thread about the morality of abortion and has completely succeeded. I didn't intend nor desire to discuss Buddhism in this thread. That's why I objected to the change of course.

This thread is about women who reject the label, "victim".

[logroller]

First of all, if you scroll back, you will see that Abbey tried to turn this thread into a thread about the morality of abortion and has completely succeeded. I didn't intend nor desire to discuss Buddhism in this thread. That's why I objected to the change of course.

This thread is about women who reject the label, "victim".

Well I'd completely forgot about abortion; thanks for reminding me though. Remember when you tried to say transvaginal ultrasounds weren't medical standards, and I proved you wrong...good times. Anyways. I was debating the meaning of words, that victim isn't connected to morality; you opposed this and stated moral absolutism something or another; chakra this or that. When the definition of the word victim makes no mention of subjective morals; but rather an action which degrades a state of being. You then claimed Buddhist don't comprehend victim hood. I was debatin this point, as we're others using extreme examples. You think extreme means absolute.

[Wind Song]

Well I'd completely forgot about abortion; thanks for reminding me though. Remember when you tried to say transvaginal ultrasounds weren't medical standards, and I proved you wrong...good times. Anyways. I was debating the meaning of words, that victim isn't connected to morality; you opposed this and stated moral absolutism something or another; chakra this or that. When the definition of the word victim makes no mention of subjective morals; but rather an action which degrades a state of being. You then claimed Buddhist don't comprehend victim hood. I was debatin this point, as we're others using extreme examples. You think extreme means absolute.


I'm trying to avoid discussing religion on this thread. It's not easy to do because a few people want this thread to be about abortion and it's not. The thread is about the misuse of the term, "victim".

You misunderstand what I said about Buddhism. If you study and contemplate and debate the topic of karma around Buddhist scholars you begin to understand that NO ONE is a true "victim".

[Dilloduck]

I'm trying to avoid discussing religion on this thread. It's not easy to do because a few people want this thread to be about abortion and it's not. The thread is about the misuse of the term, "victim".

You misunderstand what I said about Buddhism. If you study and contemplate and debate the topic of karma around Buddhist scholars you begin to understand that NO ONE is a true "victim".

The problem is that we got WAY too many fake ones.

[Wind Song]

If you truly contemplate interdependence you see that no one is a true victim. We are all co-creators.

[jimnyc]

I know a Buddhist who has had an abortion.

[logroller]

I'm trying to avoid discussing religion on this thread. It's not easy to do because a few people want this thread to be about abortion and it's not. The thread is about the misuse of the term, "victim".

You misunderstand what I said about Buddhism. If you study and contemplate and debate the topic of karma around Buddhist scholars you begin to understand that NO ONE is a true "victim".

I get what you're saying; victim is misused from your perspective; a perspective which resonates of your religious philosophy. I don't see how you can reject a definition using religion as a source and not expect that source to be discussed.

[logroller]

If you truly contemplate interdependence you see that no one is a true victim. We are all co-creators.
This whole board is now stupider for having read that.

[jimnyc]

This whole board is now stupider for having read that.

If I got stupider for reading each of her posts... well... lets just say that my brain would have imploded by now. There aren't enough brain cells in a human to account for such stupidity.

[Wind Song]

I know a Buddhist who has had an abortion.

So what? I know a ton of Christians who've had abortions too.

[Wind Song]

This whole board is now stupider for having read that.


Look, you don't understand what I'm talking about and you're not interested in understanding. I get it.

[logroller]

Look, you don't understand what I'm talking about and you're not interested in understanding. I get it.
Nobody understands what you're talking about; and when we try to you say that what we are talking about is off subject. Get that?

[Wind Song]

Nobody understands what you're talking about; and when we try to you say that what we are talking about is off subject. Get that?

That's because we keep changing topics and most of the changes YOU all are making. I did not want to discuss abortion, Buddhism and related topics such as interdependence, karma, and sentience.

Abbey and company (Jim) insisted on SHOVING it in here.

I'd rather return to the topic of the misuses of the term "victim" when applied to civil rights activists.

Frankly, what I think you all want of me, is to be compliant or silent. In other words, only discuss topics started by a REAL DP member, and only express views that agree with the majority at all times.

If you insist on being a liberal, at least entertain heterosexuals with sex topics.

[jimnyc]

That's because we keep changing topics and most of the changes YOU all are making. I did not want to discuss abortion, Buddhism and related topics such as interdependence, karma, and sentience.

Abbey and company (Jim) insisted on SHOVING it in here.

I'd rather return to the topic of the misuses of the term "victim" when applied to civil rights activists.

Frankly, what I think you all want of me, is to be compliant or silent. In other words, only discuss topics started by a REAL DP member, and only express views that agree with the majority at all times.

The topic was about a woman in Afghanistan who no longer wanted to be a victim and has risen to heights most women in Islam cannot reach. I replied on topic about these victims in Islam, and how this woman's rise is unique, and you started in on me immediately. I didn't say a fucking word to you at that point. You're blind to the fact that most treat you like an asshole because you act like an asshole.

[logroller]

That's because we keep changing topics and most of the changes YOU all are making. I did not want to discuss abortion, Buddhism and related topics such as interdependence, karma, and sentience.

Abbey and company (Jim) insisted on SHOVING it in here.

I'd rather return to the topic of the misuses of the term "victim" when applied to civil rights activists.
'you all' are you labeling me-- don't you know that's disempowering of myself as an individual? Go scroll back and see how many times I use abortion as part of my argument. I'm talking about the use of the noun victim as not being a form of victimization; based on the definition of the word. I've only used religion in response to your having used it. But fine drop it. Just explain to me why saying someone is a victim is victimizing them.

[jimnyc]

What would happen to Ms. Quraishi is she went to Saudi Arabia without being completely covered? Or Iran? Or if the Taliban get control back?

Bravo to this woman, seriously. But there's going to need to be a LOT more changes in Islam before women are considered equals or "free" of abuse.

My first post and attempt at a quality discussion, and kudos to the woman.


The point is that this brave woman is willing to die in order to get the rights she deserves. There is nothing "victim" about her at all. I think the "victim" label is misused a lot.

And 4.2 seconds later I am corrected, and basically told that I don't know what a "victim" is.

I stand by my words that so many Muslim women are abused and therefore are victims of abuse. One raising above is a good start, but when the majority of women in Islam stop getting abused, there will by default be less victims of the violence.

[Wind Song]

'you all' are you labeling me-- don't you know that's disempowering of myself as an individual? Go scroll back and see how many times I use abortion as part of my argument. I'm talking about the use of the noun victim as not being a form of victimization; based on the definition of the word. I've only used religion in response to your having used it. But fine drop it. Just explain to me why saying someone is a victim is victimizing them.

Consider how often the word "victim" is used as a derogatory label on this forum. If you want to make a civil right's activist shut up just start calling them "victims" meaning that which is vile, pathetic, helpless and worthy of being dumped on.

[Wind Song]

My first post and attempt at a quality discussion, and kudos to the woman.



And 4.2 seconds later I am corrected, and basically told that I don't know what a "victim" is.

I stand by my words that so many Muslim women are abused and therefore are victims of abuse. One raising above is a good start, but when the majority of women in Islam stop getting abused, there will by default be less victims of the violence.


I disagree. Just because a woman is a Muslim doesn't make her automatically a victim.

[ConHog]

If you truly contemplate interdependence you see that no one is a true victim. We are all co-creators.

At THIS & point, I think you are just being willfully stupid.

I ask again in reference to my below quote, how is THAT girl not a victim.




I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you didn't see this post WS.

HOW was this girl NOT a victim?



My question won't go away simply because you don't want to answer it.

[ConHog]

I disagree. Just because a woman is a Muslim doesn't make her automatically a victim.

Correct, and no one said differently. Muslim doesn't make her a victim, the way she's treated because she's Muslim oft times does.

[jimnyc]

I disagree. Just because a woman is a Muslim doesn't make her automatically a victim.

An ABUSED woman makes her a victim. There is NOTHING that you can say that makes VIOLENCE AGAINST A WOMAN - NOT - making that person a victim. Seriously, you keep saying this. If a Muslim woman IS BEATEN - how can she NOT be a victim?

For that fact, if ANYONE is beaten by another, how can they not be a victim of violence?

[Wind Song]

The worst putdown you can use on this forum is to call someone a victim. Notice how liberally you want to apply it when it comes to women, even the woman in the OP who is CLEARLY not a victim in any way.

She is a hero. She is willing to die for her rights.

Don't call someone willing to die for their rights a victim. The term, "victim", as it is used on this forum, is a derogatory term.

[ConHog]

Windy you've oft spoke of being a DV counselor.

WHen a woman shows up with a couple black eyes, and a fat lip telling you how here man beat and raped her over and over until she finally found the courage to leave do you tell her to get her ass back home and accept her karma?

[ConHog]

The worst putdown you can use on this forum is to call someone a victim. Notice how liberally you want to apply it when it comes to women, even the woman in the OP who is CLEARLY not a victim in any way.

She is a hero. She is willing to die for her rights.

Don't call someone willing to die for their rights a victim. The term, "victim", as it is used on this forum, is a derogatory term.

Stop being a moron , NO ONE called the Colonel a victim.

[Wind Song]

An ABUSED woman makes her a victim. There is NOTHING that you can say that makes VIOLENCE AGAINST A WOMAN - NOT - making that person a victim. Seriously, you keep saying this. If a Muslim woman IS BEATEN - how can she NOT be a victim?

For that fact, if ANYONE is beaten by another, how can they not be a victim of violence?


Consider how you use this term every single day that you post here. Notice how often you use the term "victim" in a derogatory way. You use the term "victim" with great contempt, more often than not, Jim.

Even in court, the term "victim" is controversial. "Complainant" is the more appropriate legal term.

How many men want to be considered "victims". Can you see how repulsive that term is and how devaluing it is to other human beings?

[jimnyc]

Consider how you use this term every single day that you post here. Notice how often you use the term "victim" in a dergatory way. You use the term "victim" with great contempt, more often than not, Jim.

Even in court, the term "victim" is controversial. "Complainant" is the more appropriate legal term.

Notice how you fucking outright ignore my questions? Is a woman that gets the shit kicked out of her by her husband a victim? Yes or no will do just fine.

[jimnyc]

Stop being a moron , NO ONE called the Colonel a victim.

She's doing this whole thing, once again, to make HERSELF a victim again. Look at the progression, and here it is another day, and another time she is making claims about how she is treated, and this and that about the board, and we are all wrong and she's misunderstood. EVERY fucking time, like clockwork.

[Wind Song]

Stop being a moron , NO ONE called the Colonel a victim.

Shut up with the moron term. That's an xtremely offensive term to describe people who are developmentally delayed. It speaks more to who YOU are though. You don't own your anger, you just use negative judgments.

Take a focusing course and learn how to speak from your core.

[jimnyc]

Shut up with the moron term. That's an xtremely offensive term to describe people who are developmentally delayed. It speaks more to who YOU are though. You don't own your anger, you just use negative judgments.

Take a focusing course and learn how to speak from your core.

Developmentally delayed? Is that like mentally challenged - aka RETARDED?

[ConHog]

Shut up with the moron term. That's an xtremely offensive term to describe people who are developmentally delayed. It speaks more to who YOU are though. You don't own your anger, you just use negative judgments.

Take a focusing course and learn how to speak from your core.

no, I will own it, you're a moron, I stand by that statement. I, and others, have offered and offered you advice on what you are doing wrong, and at this point I can only conclude that you are in fact incapable of heeding such advice. That behavior is acceptable in children, adults not so much.


I'm done treating you how you wish to be treated and will henceforth be treating you the way you deserve to be treated. If you don't like it, go back to USMB. Maybe they will tell you more stories about socks.

[Wind Song]

no, I will own it, you're a moron, I stand by that statement. I, and others, have offered and offered you advice on what you are doing wrong, and at this point I can only conclude that you are in fact incapable of heeding such advice. That behavior is acceptable in children, adults not so much.


I'm done treating you how you wish to be treated and will henceforth be treating you the way you deserve to be treated. If you don't like it, go back to USMB. Maybe they will tell you more stories about socks.


Drop dead.

[ConHog]

Drop dead.

if I did drop dead, would I be a victim, or would that just be bad karma?


By the way , wishing death on someone can't be good for your own karma. What would the fat fuck say?

[jimnyc]

no, I will own it, you're a moron, I stand by that statement. I, and others, have offered and offered you advice on what you are doing wrong, and at this point I can only conclude that you are in fact incapable of heeding such advice. That behavior is acceptable in children, adults not so much.


I'm done treating you how you wish to be treated and will henceforth be treating you the way you deserve to be treated. If you don't like it, go back to USMB. Maybe they will tell you more stories about socks.

Agreed, which makes it sadder. But if someone knows they have this issue, which they have admitted, why not take steps to improve? Why purposely become the victim, or the aggressor, all in the name of ATTENTION?

[jimnyc]

Drop dead.

In before the .

[Wind Song]

if I did drop dead, would I be a victim, or would that just be bad karma?


By the way , wishing death on someone can't be good for your own karma. What would the fat fuck say?

You've got a lot of nerve talking about USMB here after lying to me for months.

[jimnyc]

I notice the questions about women getting beaten go unanswered. One can only assume that Wind Song has no problem with women being beaten and it always just means they aren't empowered.

Why do you wish women to be beaten, Dorothy?

[Wind Song]

I notice the questions about women getting beaten go unanswered. One can only assume that Wind Song has no problem with women being beaten and it always just means they aren't empowered.

Why do you wish women to be beaten, Dorothy?


I never said any such thing. I'm not in favor of calling a woman who has been beaten a victim. I call her a survivor of violence.
I call her strong, heroic.


You on the other hand, drop the "victim" label indiscriminately. That's just the kind of guy you are/

[jimnyc]

I never said any such thing. I'm not in favor of calling a woman who has been beaten a victim. I call her a survivor of violence.
I call her strong, heroic.


You on the other hand, drop the "victim" label indescriminately.

So, based on your own words, women that are abused by their husbands, and beaten, worldwide - the are no victims of domestic violence - only survivors.

[logroller]

The worst putdown you can use on this forum is to call someone a victim. Notice how liberally you want to apply it when it comes to women, even the woman in the OP who is CLEARLY not a victim in any way.

She is a hero. She is willing to die for her rights.

Don't call someone willing to die for their rights a victim. The term, "victim", as it is used on this forum, is a derogatory term.
Just since you got here did that word gain the popularity it has; likely because you are wanton of victimization. Before that the preferred derogatory terms were variations of lib... Libtard was my favorite.

[ConHog]

Agreed, which makes it sadder. But if someone knows they have this issue, which they have admitted, why not take steps to improve? Why purposely become the victim, or the aggressor, all in the name of ATTENTION?


Personally Jim, I think it's time to stop calling her a victim, a victim denotes someone who suffered something they didn't wish to go through. I can only conclude that WS LIKES the negative attention and that she is purposely does what she can do to get it.

[jimnyc]

Personally Jim, I think it's time to stop calling her a victim, a victim denotes someone who suffered something they didn't wish to go through. I can only conclude that WS LIKES the negative attention and that she is purposely does what she can do to get it.

I KNOW she is no victim. She tries to PLAY the victim to get the attention and have a reason to start shit with other people and complain. But we agree, her playing the victim card is an affront to all REAL victims.

[Wind Song]

So, based on your own words, women that are abused by their husbands, and beaten, worldwide - the are no victims of domestic violence - only survivors.


No one wants to be thought of as a victim.

[Wind Song]

I KNOW she is no victim. She tries to PLAY the victim to get the attention and have a reason to start shit with other people and complain. But we agree, her playing the victim card is an affront to all REAL victims.

No, I'm not a victim and I don't play one on TV either. I tell the truth about how I feel. From day one, I called you on your shit. You don't like that, Jim?

Too bad.

[Abbey Marie]

Note. You and Abbey have high jacked this thread and made it about abortion. Off topic. There are tons of threads about abortion. Why not take your fanatical religious trip there?

Until you stop calling every person with Christian beliefs "fanatics", you will never be taken seriously. Enough already.

[Abbey Marie]

I don't consider aborted fetuses to be victims.

How about people murdered in concentration camps?

[Abbey Marie]

There is "nuance" to life?

Well, duh! A skilled abortionist could terminate life with nuance. All depends on the handling of the instruments. And how much finesse is used in tossing the "products of conception" into the bin. :rolleyes:

[Abbey Marie]

First of all, if you scroll back, you will see that Abbey tried to turn this thread into a thread about the morality of abortion and has completely succeeded. I didn't intend nor desire to discuss Buddhism in this thread. That's why I objected to the change of course.

This thread is about women who reject the label, "victim".

I already said this, but, golly gee, you ignored it. Color me surprised.

I tried to use Chinese gender abortion as an example of how ridiculous it is to say that women are not victims. To discuss your argument that Afghani women are not victims. YOU keep trying to turn my reply into a post about abortion. If you want to discuss abortion again, just say so. ;)

[Abbey Marie]

If you truly contemplate interdependence you see that no one is a true victim. We are all co-creators.

Rape victims used to be considered co-creators of their own rapes, too.

(Oops, I just called them victims).

[Abbey Marie]

So, based on your own words, women that are abused by their husbands, and beaten, worldwide - the are no victims of domestic violence - only survivors.

So we see why she didn't want to answer the aborted females question- no "survivors' there.