US drone attack kills some more vermin!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/29/13018467-us-drone-attack-kills-at-least-5-in-pakistan?lite

US drone attack kills at least 5 in Pakistan
By NBC News' Mushtaq Yusufzai
U.S. drones fired six missiles and pounded a house and car in the Mir Ali subdivision of Pakistan's North Waziristan tribal region on Sunday.

Local villagers said the drone targeted a house where militants reportedly resided.

The villagers said a car has also been damaged in the attack.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pakistani security officials based in the area said five U.S. spy planes were seen flying over the area during the attack.

A security official said five people had been confirmed dead and four others were injured in the attack.

There was no immediate information about the identity of the victims.

Local residents however said besides Pakistani militants, members of al-Qaida and Afghan Taliban were also hiding in the area.

It was the second attack by U.S. drones in North Waziristan during the holy month of Ramadan.

Fourteen people, all believed to be militants, were killed in a previous drone attack at Dre Nishtar village of Shawal Valley of North Waziristan.


Yet we have calls by appeasers , leftists, terrorist loving jackasses to just let the scum have free reign to travel about planning their attacks and organising. -Tyr

[aboutime]

Finally. Some good news for a change.

Anyone remember how Obama and company originally insisted, and told us not to refer to 'THE WAR ON TERRORISM'?

What's up with that?

If it's not a war on terror.
Then WE...I mean...OBAMA has declared war on Pakistan.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Finally. Some good news for a change.

Anyone remember how Obama and company originally insisted, and told us not to refer to 'THE WAR ON TERRORISM'?

What's up with that?

If it's not a war on terror.
Then WE...I mean...OBAMA has declared war on Pakistan.

Its a war on "man caused disasters".......:laugh:
Remember just words, just lying words.. from the corrupt ADMINISTRATION... -Tyr

[Anton Chigurh]

It's a good thing Senator Obama was outvoted and well in the minority for the bill funding the massive expansion of the drone program back in 2006.... He voted NO, he reaps the benefits again of being wrong while shamelessly taking credit...

[gabosaurus]

Vermin posting about "vermin." How ironic is that? :rolleyes:

[jimnyc]

Vermin posting about "vermin." How ironic is that? :rolleyes:

Gabby mocking the OP and not addressing the topic, how typical is that? :poke:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Gabby mocking the OP and not addressing the topic, how typical is that? :poke:

Jim , forgive her for she knows not what she does. It's a demented liberal thang!:laugh2:-Tyr

[gabosaurus]

I know a lot about drones. After all, there are enough of them here. :rolleyes:

A drone effect can be achieved through a sustained (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustain_%28music%29) sound or through repetition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetition_%28music%29) of a note. It most often establishes a tonality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonality) upon which the rest of the piece is built. A drone can be instrumental, vocal or both.

[jafar00]

So Tyr. Another drone attack by US troops too scared to go at it toe to toe with a couple of guys armed with rusty AK47s. Weak.

[fj1200]

Gabby mocking the OP and not addressing the topic, how typical is that? :poke:

Well it's not like the OP gave anyone anywhere to go with a dissenting opinion. It's not like there is any debate on whether the drone strikes are an effective policy.

[CSM]

So Tyr. Another drone attack by US troops too scared to go at it toe to toe with a couple of guys armed with rusty AK47s. Weak.


Oh, you mean those guys who hide behind women and children? The ones who plant roadside bombs; fire rockets into civilian areas, kidnap and behead civilians, bomb civilian gathering places and suicide themselves at funerals, weddings and other civilian gatherings? Those guys with rusty AK-47s who train children to do their fighting for them? Yeah, they are some real heroes! No wonder US troops are too scared to "go at it toe to toe" with them .... NOT! Hell, get those couple of guys with rusty AK-47s to fight like REAL men instead of the cowardly, low lifes they truly are and we'll see how afraid the US troops are of them.

[darin]

So Tyr. Another drone attack by US troops too scared to go at it toe to toe with a couple of guys armed with rusty AK47s. Weak.

US Forces

http://stonescryout.org/wp-content/uploads/bieger-and-farah.jpg

Islamic Terrorists:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_k1Svois2nn4/S_GMscMbxZI/AAAAAAAADSI/0kk48Q90R5o/s1600/palestinian_child_abuse2.jpg

[jimnyc]

So Tyr. Another drone attack by US troops too scared to go at it toe to toe with a couple of guys armed with rusty AK47s. Weak.

Wouldn't matter if that stretched truth was actual truth or not. From a war standpoint, it makes perfect sense to put yourself in a position to take out an enemy, with pinpoint precision, lessening the potential for collateral damage while ensuring your own troops remain out of harms way.

And troops scared? You imply yourself that the enemy has rusty weapons, and an inferior opponent. The US is the best trained and most powerful military in the entire world. You think they're afraid of a few guys with rust weapons?

The US troops will beat these guys in ANY scenario you place them in, from hand to hand combat with no weapons, to regular gun exchanges in the fields, to the dropping of bombs from drones. The only way the enemy ever has a chance is to mingle with innocents and hope that the US can't find them. Or to strap a bomb to themselves and infiltrate a certain area to take a few out, while taking out innocents on a much more higher level than the enemy.

You're angry that the US military is superior to our enemy in every way possibly imaginable.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Oh, you mean those guys who hide behind women and children? The ones who plant roadside bombs; fire rockets into civilian areas, kidnap and behead civilians, bomb civilian gathering places and suicide themselves at funerals, weddings and other civilian gatherings? Those guys with rusty AK-47s who train children to do their fighting for them? Yeah, they are some real heroes! No wonder US troops are too scared to "go at it toe to toe" with them .... NOT! Hell, get those couple of guys with rusty AK-47s to fight like REAL men instead of the cowardly, low lifes they truly are and we'll see how afraid the US troops are of them.

Damn, you beat me to it . Bravo , very well said! Very well said INDEED -:beer:
Jafar holds up as heroes the scum that will not come out to fight our guys but would rather live another day to shag camels and stone people to death all in the name of the pervert child molester Mu-ham-ed! Supposed warriors that use children as shields, use hospitals and civilian neighborhoods to shield their attacks from return fire and actively seek out defenseless civilians to murder(most often women and children) , all in the name of thier perverted cultlike "supposed" Religion of Peace..
Just as bad are the people that defend them and thier cowardly actions!
They havent made the cowardly terrorist bustard that I wouldnt gladly step into a ring and fight to the death barehanded. No link needed on that as it's a GD FACT! I too have a savage spirit in me, an extemely savage one and it comes from my Indian side. The difference is I let it go only when necessary(never against innocent people)!
Islamist terrorists are truly the scum of the earth for they deliberately murder innocent women and children ,such deliberate actions place them firmly in that category IMHO.
Excuse my honesty and passion but this subject strikes a nerve with me and always will...-Tyr

[darin]

To be fair, I've met a lot of respectable and respectful muslims. Dozens. Some are lovely people.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

So Tyr. Another drone attack by US troops too scared to go at it toe to toe with a couple of guys armed with rusty AK47s. Weak.

My heritage is from warriors (Viking, Irish, English, German, Danish and American Indian). You delude yourself if you think our troops are scared of such women and baby murderers ! Hell, its laughable, we have the best troops on earth, only challenged in that aspect by Israeli troops methinks! Im not even military and I wouldnt fear fighting the best they have armed or unarmed. My nephew did two tours of duty in Iraq. He admitted that many of the civilians there are good people but his contempt for the fighters was intense. He calls them cowardly scum and said they had better use roadside bombs because their shooting ability was like that of a kid just learning, most were lousy shots just spray a clip from behind cover and then run away. HAHA. His words were, "They will not DARE face us in a fight unless they vastly outnumber us by at least SIX TO ONE! Even then they blast away then run away". -:laugh2:
Thats your heroes for you........enjoy the truth for a change..-Tyr

[jimnyc]

To be fair, I've met a lot of respectable and respectful muslims. Dozens. Some are lovely people.

Without a doubt. I've made it clear endless times. But the bad in some people are louder than the decent folks, hence we end up discussing the bad things.

[Gaffer]

So Tyr. Another drone attack by US troops too scared to go at it toe to toe with a couple of guys armed with rusty AK47s. Weak.

The attacks were in Pakistan, we aren't suppose to have troops there. The paks are pretty touchy about US forces in their country since the bin laden incident. So try again.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Without a doubt. I've made it clear endless times. But the bad in some people are louder than the decent folks, hence we end up discussing the bad things.

Its far more important to discuss the bad when it involves the murdering of so many innocent people, especially the deliberate murdering of innocent women and children! Even more imporant is to discuss the threat from a religion that has as its primary goal the enslavement of the entire world into it's insanity=Islam! The naysayers will deny that is Islam's goal but I know better and any study of Islam reveals that is its goal.
This goal clearing represents the subjegation of all mankind! The currently approved method is by using the sword to remove all that stand against it.. That "sword" is using terror and that terror takes many forms but outright murder of innocent people is the main method Islamist terrorists use. Islam by its very nature must destroy our culture and by its primary commandment must do so to all that oppose it. This can not be tolerated, can not be appeased, it must be defeated by any means possible. For they would slay a billion people people without so much as blinking an eye or hesitating even a second! Such is the blindness, insanity and savagery of that cultlike religion IMHO.-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The attacks were in Pakistan, we aren't suppose to have troops there. The paks are pretty touchy about US forces in their country since the bin laden incident. So try again.

Great point my friend. --:beer:
He does not care Gaffer. He will defend Islam at any costs and muslims repeatedly prove that lying is a trivial matter. All "evil' is permissible when defending Allah! Jafar sees cowardly murdering terrorists as brave heroes, need one say more?-Tyr

[jafar00]

Damn, you beat me to it . Bravo , very well said! Very well said INDEED -:beer:
Jafar holds up as heroes the scum that will not come out to fight our guys but would rather live another day to shag camels and stone people to death all in the name of the pervert child molester Mu-ham-ed! Supposed warriors that use children as shields, use hospitals and civilian neighborhoods to shield their attacks from return fire and actively seek out defenseless civilians to murder(most often women and children) , all in the name of thier perverted cultlike "supposed" Religion of Peace..
Just as bad are the people that defend them and thier cowardly actions!
They havent made the cowardly terrorist bustard that I wouldnt gladly step into a ring and fight to the death barehanded. No link needed on that as it's a GD FACT! I too have a savage spirit in me, an extemely savage one and it comes from my Indian side. The difference is I let it go only when necessary(never against innocent people)!
Islamist terrorists are truly the scum of the earth for they deliberately murder innocent women and children ,such deliberate actions place them firmly in that category IMHO.
Excuse my honesty and passion but this subject strikes a nerve with me and always will...-Tyr

You have me all wrong. I believe terrorists should be killed (after a fair trial) but these guys are definitely not my heroes. They are the enemies of Islam.

Your guys are still pussies no matter how you like to twist it :p


The attacks were in Pakistan, we aren't suppose to have troops there. The paks are pretty touchy about US forces in their country since the bin laden incident. So try again.

So you support violating another country's sovereignty whenever you like it? When another does it to you, you call it a terrorist attack.

[aboutime]

Gabby mocking the OP and not addressing the topic, how typical is that? :poke:



That's how they roll. Typical, and expected. Like clockwork, and Groundhog Day, all in one.

[CSM]

.....Your guys are still pussies no matter how you like to twist it :p ....

Taken to trolling now I guess. Pretty soon you'll be demanding that the members of this board convert to Islam or suffer the consequences!

[darin]

You have me all wrong. I believe terrorists should be killed (after a fair trial) but these guys are definitely not my heroes. They are the enemies of Islam.


No trial for acts of war. None. Bullet to the head. Or hellfire to the house.


Your guys are still pussies no matter how you like to twist it :p

Are you trying to be funny now? Do you really think the terrorists could go force-on-force with the US of A? Hell, Radical Islam's worst nightmare would be Israel unleashed. Israel would - with the small force it maintains - would absolutely abolish several countries who support terror - I bet Israel would have captured Tehran within about four days, if it wanted. Maybe 3.

:)

We'll be waiting, any time you can muster up some terrorists to come out from behind their women and children...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uT_XE2cNg1M/T-sgNjIovFI/AAAAAAABvNk/2Q9neWFZB3s/s1600/PDJ%2B27%2B%25281%2529.jpg



So you support violating another country's sovereignty whenever you like it? When another does it to you, you call it a terrorist attack.

No, I support violating terrorists in every way possible. Those who want to kill innocents...and those who harbor them are the enemies of Freedom. The enemies of Me.

[jafar00]

Taken to trolling now I guess. Pretty soon you'll be demanding that the members of this board convert to Islam or suffer the consequences!

Why would I need to do that? You will suffer the consequences in the afterlife. It's not up to me.


No trial for acts of war. None. Bullet to the head. Or hellfire to the house.

Even if that means a lot of innocent people get killed in the process? I thought the US believed in "liberty and justice for all"? Unless your pledge of allegiance means nothing.

Your kind of "justice" results in things like the taliban shooting a woman in the back, or criminal gangs stoning people in Mali.

A fair trial is a basic human right no matter what the charge.

[jimnyc]

Even if that means a lot of innocent people get killed in the process?

And your original comments - I believe terrorists should be killed (after a fair trial) but these guys are definitely not my heroes.

So how does Darin stating they should be shot and not extended a trial, immediately make you say killing of innocents?

If you're concerned of killing of innocents, you should probably focus more on the terrorists who blow themselves up without regard for enemy, innocent, woman or child.

[aboutime]

Taken to trolling now I guess. Pretty soon you'll be demanding that the members of this board convert to Islam or suffer the consequences!


jafar's only defense in pretending that terrorists should get A FAIR TRIAL is...accusing others, or calling them names to cover up...what jafar actually is...in reality.
Pretending to care for terrorists RIGHTS, when they NEVER seem to care for the children, or other members of their own nation is next to stupidity, accentuated by more stupidity.

jafar wants all of us to believe in tolerance. As long as we do, act, say, and think like jafar.

[darin]

Why would I need to do that? You will suffer the consequences in the afterlife. It's not up to me.


Those who commit terror in the name of YOUR faith suffer the consequences.



Even if that means a lot of innocent people get killed in the process? I thought the US believed in "liberty and justice for all"? Unless your pledge of allegiance means nothing.

Your kind of "justice" results in things like the taliban shooting a woman in the back, or criminal gangs stoning people in Mali.

A fair trial is a basic human right no matter what the charge.

Lemme get this straight...Islamic terrorists blow up non-combatants...hide behind women and children...and you're blaming the people they are shooting at??

You're weird bro.

[jimnyc]

Those who commit terror in the name of YOUR faith suffer the consequences.

Which according to many in Islam, is paradise.

[taft2012]

So Tyr. Another drone attack by US troops too scared to go at it toe to toe with a couple of guys armed with rusty AK47s. Weak.

.... says the side that is hopelessly outgunned, as if they would fight mano-a-mano if they had our toys. :rolleyes:

You guys can't even cut someone's head off without his hands tied behind his back and six guys holding him down.

Freak....

[jafar00]

Those who commit terror in the name of YOUR faith suffer the consequences.

Yes, their punishment in hell is severe. Suicide bombers for example will spend eternity blowing themselves up only to be put back together so they can do it again, and again, and again.


Lemme get this straight...Islamic terrorists blow up non-combatants...hide behind women and children...and you're blaming the people they are shooting at??

You're weird bro.

You can hardly say they are hiding behind women and children when you use drones to bomb them at home.


Which according to many in Islam, is paradise.

Not for terrorists.

[jimnyc]

Not for terrorists.

And while YOU may believe that, a HUGE contingent of Muslims on the radical side, believe that if they give their life to kill infidels, they will end up in paradise. YOU say the terrorists won't go there, and in the same breath there are Muslims in wacky areas that are teaching the opposite.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

And while YOU may believe that, a HUGE contingent of Muslims on the radical side, believe that if they give their life to kill infidels, they will end up in paradise. YOU say the terrorists won't go there, and in the same breath there are Muslims in wacky areas that are teaching the opposite.

Jafar knows that. He also knows that many muslims support the radical 10%. Jihad is not forbidden its is commanded as a response to defend Islam. That he knows well too.-Tyr

[jafar00]

And while YOU may believe that, a HUGE contingent of Muslims on the radical side, believe that if they give their life to kill infidels, they will end up in paradise. YOU say the terrorists won't go there, and in the same breath there are Muslims in wacky areas that are teaching the opposite.

I wouldn't call a lunatic fringe, "HUGE". I've never met one personally.

I'm not the only one who says the terrorists won't go there. There wouldn't be enough room for me to post all of the terrorism condemnations by Islamic leaders here. I've been taught 1001 reasons why terrorism leads you to hell and that's what I will continue to believe no matter what some dusty guy with a beard in Afghanistan is saying.


Jafar knows that. He also knows that many muslims support the radical 10%. Jihad is not forbidden its is commanded as a response to defend Islam. That he knows well too.-Tyr

I am engaged in Jihad every day. What of it?

[taft2012]

There wouldn't be enough room for me to post all of the terrorism condemnations by Islamic leaders here.

OK, so give us, oh, let's say five examples.


I've been taught 1001 reasons why terrorism leads you to hell and that's what I will continue to believe no matter what some dusty guy with a beard in Afghanistan is saying.

And maybe those five examples for Islamic leaders can include some scriptural citations?


I am engaged in Jihad every day. What of it?

Drone incoming.

[jafar00]

OK, so give us, oh, let's say five examples.

Many of the examples below are just excerpts from much larger articles. I urge you to read them to get an Islamic perspective on terrorism.


The leader of a global Muslim movement has issued a fatwa, or religious edict, that he calls an absolute condemnation of terrorism.
Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, a former Pakistani lawmaker, says the 600-page fatwa bans suicide bombing "without any excuses, any pretexts, or exceptions".

http://www.minhaj.org/english/tid/10894/3-News--Muslim-leader-Absolute-condemnation-of-terrorism.html


“The terrorists acts, from the perspective of Islamic law, constitute the crime of hirabah (waging war against society)"
Sept. 27, 2001 fatwa, signed by: Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi (Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Countil, Qatar)
Judge Tariq al-Bishri, First Deputy President of the Council d'etat, Egypt
Dr. Muhammad s. al-Awa, Professor of Islamic Law and Shari'a, Egypt
Dr. Haytham al-Khayyat, Islamic scholar, Syria
Fahmi Houaydi, Islamic scholar, Syria
Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, Chairman, North America High Council

http://www.icnanj.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=65


Suicide Bombing Cannot Bring Salvation: An Islamic Perspective
Munawar A. Anees was founding editor-in-chief of Periodica Islamica.
Kuala Lumpur—In recent times, a violent culture of martyrdom has arisen that glorifies suicide terrorism as a means to salvation. In the last five years alone, starting with the September 11 tragedy, there has been a significant increase in suicide terrorist attacks across the Muslim world. Among the major victims of this self-destructive act is the Islamic concept of salvation itself. Whereas there is no Koranic evidence to support the myth of multitudes of perpetually regenerating virgins in paradise, as popularized by the Western media, the Koran unequivocally condemns the perpetrators of suicide to Hell:
“And do not kill yourselves. Surely, God is Most Merciful to you. And whoever commits that through aggression and injustice, We shall cast him into the Fire, and that is easy for God.” (4:29–30)
Islam teaches that life is a sacred trust given to human beings by the Creator. Like other Abrahamic faiths, it prohibits suicide as a grave sin. It is forbidden under all circumstances, including war. Abu Hurairah narrated that the Prophet said: “Whoever kills himself with an iron tool, then his tool will be in his hand and he will be stabbing himself with it in the Fire of Hell, forever and ever.” And, “Whoever kills himself with poison, then his poison will be in his hand and he will keep taking it in the Fire of Hell, forever and ever. Whoever kills himself from a mountain will keep falling in the Fire of Hell, forever and ever.” (Bukhari and Muslim)

http://www.digitalnpq.org/archive/2006_summer/09_anees.html


War has defined limits, said Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, a Muslim scholar who is founder and director of the Zaytuna Institute, an Islamic study center in Hayward, Calif.
"The prophet clearly prohibited killing noncombatants, women and children," he said. "The prophet prohibited poisoning wells, which I think can be applied to biological warfare. The prophet prohibited using fire as a means to kill another being, because only the Lord of fire can punish with fire. And the destruction of property is prohibited. Even in war, you can't destroy other people's property."

http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/wtc-distortion.html


CHAPTER 3
THE FORBIDDANCE OF THE INDISCRIMINATE KILLING
OF NON-MUSLIMS AND OF TORTURING THEM.

1. Killing the non-Muslim citizens is forbidden
2. The forbiddance of killing foreign delegates and
religious leadersFATWA ON SUICIDE BOMBINGS & TERRORISM
11
3. Retribution of Muslims and non-Muslims is the
same
4. Avenging a wrong done by a non-Muslim to
others is forbidden
5. The forbiddance of looting non-Muslim citizens
6. Humiliating non-Muslim citizens is forbidden
7. The protection of non-Muslim citizens from
internal and external aggression

http://www.minhaj.org/images-db2/fatwa-eng.pdf
And here is a link to the full fatwa on Terrorism. It's 600 pages long though but it is the most concise condemnation of terrorism possible.
http://www.minhajpublications.com/?p=490


And maybe those five examples for Islamic leaders can include some scriptural citations?

The following is 36 pages of condemnation with enough scriptural citation to satisfy your curiosity.
http://abdurrahman.org/jihad/TheCondemnationOfTerrorism.pdf

And here is a link to a fatwa on Terrorism. It's 600 pages long though but it is the most concise condemnation of terrorism possible.
http://www.minhajpublications.com/?p=490

Are those examples enough?


Drone incoming.

You would kill me for getting up at 4:30am to pray instead of sleeping in?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I am engaged in Jihad every day. What of it?
------------------------------------------------------------------------



Defending Islam with words is easy. That is not the type of Jihad the West objects to although truth be known they should. Its the murdering of so many innocent people that we object to. Arab Spring unification is a defense against the actions they know that they will one day force us to take! Perhaps you should get a bomb/bullet proof prayer rug because someday the radicals could be the cause of you coming to harm. WAR has a nasty way of getting people not engaged in it shot too. Your brothers's murdering could possibly get you shot by mistake, think about that for a while.-Tyr

[aboutime]

Let's have THREE CHEERS for the drone operator. Whoever, and Wherever he or she may be.

HIP HIP...HOORAY!

And one for jafar!

[aboutime]

------------------------------------------------------------------------



Defending Islam with words is easy. That is not the type of Jihad the West objects to although truth be known they should. Its the murdering of so many innocent people that we object to. Arab Spring unification is a defense against the actions they know that they will one day force us to take! Perhaps you should get a bomb/bullet proof prayer rug because someday the radicals could be the cause of you coming to harm. WAR has a nasty way of getting people not engaged in it shot too. Your brothers's murdering could possibly get you shot by mistake, think about that for a while.-Tyr

Finally. jafar admits his hatred, and love for terrorists. Showing his PRIDE for Jihad moves jafar to the bottom of the food chain. Right next to Insect repellents and mouse traps.
Thank you for being so honest?

[jimnyc]

Finally. jafar admits his hatred, and love for terrorists. Showing his PRIDE for Jihad moves jafar to the bottom of the food chain. Right next to Insect repellents and mouse traps.
Thank you for being so honest?

Americans and many others only hear of the term "jihad" when it comes to war and violence, but in fairness, not all Muslims subscribe to the word in that manner. In a nutshell, I believe you can define the word as something Muslims do to struggle to make Islam better. I'm not sure this always means by violence, but I agree in the aspect that far too many Muslims DO think that.

I've already said I thought Jafar defended too many unsavory actions of Muslims, and seems to, IMO, want to deny other aspects. But honestly, solely from my interaction with him here, I don't see him as a violent person, nor Abso, who is another Muslim member of ours from Egypt.

No way in hell is this me defending the evil within the Islamic world. I have more problems with things in the Islamic world than I do with every other faith put together as one. But that doesn't HAVE to include all of them, nor Jafar, nor Abso, nor the buddies of mine here in NY. Just as I know all of them bastards have problems with many Americans, but are somewhat accepting of me, the individual.

[jafar00]

Let's have THREE CHEERS for the drone operator. Whoever, and Wherever he or she may be.

HIP HIP...HOORAY!

And one for jafar!

One what? Cheer, or drone? :/


Finally. jafar admits his hatred, and love for terrorists. Showing his PRIDE for Jihad moves jafar to the bottom of the food chain. Right next to Insect repellents and mouse traps.
Thank you for being so honest?

Getting up at 4:30am is Jihad
Fasting 16 hours a day for a month is Jihad
Resisting the urge to get drunk with my work colleagues is Jihad
Going out of my way to find halal meat rather than just to take the easy way out and eat non halal is Jihad

Jihad means "Struggle". I hope the few examples above help you understand that Jihad is not necessarily what you think it is.

Resisting the urge to match your insults with other insults is Jihad :p

[CSM]

Americans and many others only hear of the term "jihad" when it comes to war and violence, but in fairness, not all Muslims subscribe to the word in that manner. In a nutshell, I believe you can define the word as something Muslims do to struggle to make Islam better. I'm not sure this always means by violence, but I agree in the aspect that far too many Muslims DO think that.

I've already said I thought Jafar defended too many unsavory actions of Muslims, and seems to, IMO, want to deny other aspects. But honestly, solely from my interaction with him here, I don't see him as a violent person, nor Abso, who is another Muslim member of ours from Egypt.

No way in hell is this me defending the evil within the Islamic world. I have more problems with things in the Islamic world than I do with every other faith put together as one. But that doesn't HAVE to include all of them, nor Jafar, nor Abso, nor the buddies of mine here in NY. Just as I know all of them bastards have problems with many Americans, but are somewhat accepting of me, the individual.


I have to agree. There is no doubt in my mind that the western media (along with some of our own elected officials) have mis represented some of the islamic philosophy. I also have no doubt that some Muslims have perverted the essence of Islam to justify their actions. That being said, the small number of Islamic extremists have such a large impact on so many people across the globe, it is difficult to understand why Muslims themselves have not and (for the most part) will not take more positive action against them. A 600 page treasty condemning terrorism is equivalent to a strongly worded letter of disapproval from the UN and about as useful.

[jimnyc]

I have to agree. There is no doubt in my mind that the western media (along with some of our own elected officials) have mis represented some of the islamic philosophy. I also have no doubt that some Muslims have perverted the essence of Islam to justify their actions. That being said, the small number of Islamic extremists have such a large impact on so many people across the globe, it is difficult to understand why Muslims themselves have not and (for the most part) will not take more positive action against them. A 600 page treasty condemning terrorism is equivalent to a strongly worded letter of disapproval from the UN and about as useful.

Like the Tea Party, the Muslim community comprised of billions now? They should band together to make a difference, snuff out even the remotest of radicals giving them a bad name, and of course the criminal element and terrorists. Instead if waging holy war against non-believers and occupiers, wage it against those ruining their good name.

[jafar00]

A 600 page treasty condemning terrorism is equivalent to a strongly worded letter of disapproval from the UN and about as useful.

However it does make it clear what Islam says about terrorism. Total condemnation.

[darin]

Yes, their punishment in hell is severe. Suicide bombers for example will spend eternity blowing themselves up only to be put back together so they can do it again, and again, and again.

How would that be punishment?


You can hardly say they are hiding behind women and children when you use drones to bomb them at home.




No, I can easily say it. Because it happens. :)

[Nukeman]

I wouldn't call a lunatic fringe, "HUGE". I've never met one personally.

?What percentage of Islam would you say fit the bill for "lunatic fringe"?? Is it 1%, 5%, 10%, or 15%??

I'm curious as to what the percentage is or should I say what YOU think the percentage is

[CSM]

However it does make it clear what Islam says about terrorism. Total condemnation.

It's a matter of degree I think. It certainly makes it clear what SOME among Islam say about terrorism. There is a pretty big gap between saying and doing.

[jafar00]

How would that be punishment?

I take it you are not a person of faith?

The goal of every Muslim is to do good works and worship God in the very short time we are in this life in order to get a place in Paradise (Heaven) and to avoid hellfire in the afterlife.


What percentage of Islam would you say fit the bill for "lunatic fringe"?? Is it 1%, 5%, 10%, or 15%??

I'm curious as to what the percentage is or should I say what YOU think the percentage is

I have no idea what the percentage is because I have yet to meet one of them in the last 15 or so years of extensive travel.


It's a matter of degree I think. It certainly makes it clear what SOME among Islam say about terrorism. There is a pretty big gap between saying and doing.

The vast majority of us would agree with this fatwa. Many of us have said things along the same lines and used the same evidences from scripture to support the position. It's not "SOME". You make it sound like the majority of us support terrorist acts. Actually most victims of terrorist acts ARE Muslims so supporting them would be a bit dumb don't you think?

[Nukeman]

I take it you are not a person of faith?

The goal of every Muslim is to do good works and worship God in the very short time we are in this life in order to get a place in Paradise (Heaven) and to avoid hellfire in the afterlife.



I have no idea what the percentage is because I have yet to meet one of them in the last 15 or so years of extensive travel.



The vast majority of us would agree with this fatwa. Many of us have said things along the same lines and used the same evidences from scripture to support the position. It's not "SOME". You make it sound like the majority of us support terrorist acts. Actually most victims of terrorist acts ARE Muslims so supporting them would be a bit dumb don't you think?Obviously your travel includes EDUCATED and SAFE areas if you were to include in your "extensive' travel those area that breed and encourage the terrorism maybe you could have a better idea of the percentage... If say as a conservative number we list 10% with over 1 billion adherents of Islam that would mean there are 100 million "fringe" lunatics.. that my friend is a lot of lunatics!!! even if we cut that in half that is still 50,000,000 people that adhere to the teachings of bad individuals and are taught that terrorism is OK...

[jafar00]

Obviously your travel includes EDUCATED and SAFE areas if you were to include in your "extensive' travel those area that breed and encourage the terrorism maybe you could have a better idea of the percentage... If say as a conservative number we list 10% with over 1 billion adherents of Islam that would mean there are 100 million "fringe" lunatics.. that my friend is a lot of lunatics!!! even if we cut that in half that is still 50,000,000 people that adhere to the teachings of bad individuals and are taught that terrorism is OK...

I wouldn't say I stuck to educated and safe areas. I've spent a lot of time in poor areas where all the life is. Your figure of 10% is too high. If it were that high, I would have met some unsavoury characters already.

[jimnyc]

Obviously your travel includes EDUCATED and SAFE areas if you were to include in your "extensive' travel those area that breed and encourage the terrorism maybe you could have a better idea of the percentage... If say as a conservative number we list 10% with over 1 billion adherents of Islam that would mean there are 100 million "fringe" lunatics.. that my friend is a lot of lunatics!!! even if we cut that in half that is still 50,000,000 people that adhere to the teachings of bad individuals and are taught that terrorism is OK...

He likes Egypt. So speaking of percentages - ask him what percentage of women in Egypt claim to have been abused by men. Then ask what percentage of men admit to abusing their women.

He'll come back, as others do, and claim it happens here and elsewhere too, which it does. But the percentages are beyond extremely different.

So yes, I suppose it does change if you visit educated and/or safe areas. He apparently likes or has visited the tiny portion of Egypt that doesn't beat the women.

[Nukeman]

I wouldn't say I stuck to educated and safe areas. I've spent a lot of time in poor areas where all the life is. Your figure of 10% is too high. If it were that high, I would have met some unsavoury characters already.

Jafar, Like I said even if we cut that in half it is still 50,000,000 people. Hell if you want to say only 1% that is still 10,000,000 people that practice a very different type of religion than yourself (yet call themselves Muslims and practice openly), now I would think that you and your brethren would take the opportunity to eradicate those that are bringing such dishonor to your religion!! Of course that is just me! 10,000,000 people can cause a lot of damage. you do realize that is twice the population of some countries don't you? So you have a small countries worth of lunatics causing problems that makes EVERYONE look bad.

The problem as I see it, is that when you have terrorist actions take place, instead of calling for the excommunication or the heads of these people you and others like you seem to say "well I don't agree with them but you have to understand where they are coming from", "you have to try to understand why they were pushed to this"... Guess what NO I DON"T terrorist tactics are just that, used to cause terror and mayhem on as grand a level as possible. They aren't really fighting for anything they just want to cause as much pain and suffering as they can..... Until you and other peaceful Muslims clean your own house there will never be an opportunity to cease hostilities!!! Before you start on us cleaning or house we have been trying that and are slowly succeeding in taking back our govt to a more reasonable level. I can say at least we are trying can YOU say the same!?!?!?!?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Jafar, Like I said even if we cut that in half it is still 50,000,000 people. Hell if you want to say only 1% that is still 10,000,000 people that practice a very different type of religion than yourself (yet call themselves Muslims and practice openly), now I would think that you and your brethren would take the opportunity to eradicate those that are bringing such dishonor to your religion!! Of course that is just me! 10,000,000 people can cause a lot of damage. you do realize that is twice the population of some countries don't you? So you have a small countries worth of lunatics causing problems that makes EVERYONE look bad.

The problem as I see it, is that when you have terrorist actions take place, instead of calling for the excommunication or the heads of these people you and others like you seem to say "well I don't agree with them but you have to understand where they are coming from", "you have to try to understand why they were pushed to this"... Guess what NO I DON"T terrorist tactics are just that, used to cause terror and mayhem on as grand a level as possible. They aren't really fighting for anything they just want to cause as much pain and suffering as they can..... Until you and other peaceful Muslims clean your own house there will never be an opportunity to cease hostilities!!! Before you start on us cleaning or house we have been trying that and are slowly succeeding in taking back our govt to a more reasonable level. I can say at least we are trying can YOU say the same!?!?!?!?

A few aggressive , biting serpents in a house full of serpents will not cause a disturbance!
Besides , they bite any that comes against them including thier own. Its that complete and absolute commitment to violence that scares even the other muslims! They think why should we stand up for infidels when we may get murdered for doing so! Yet they will quickly declare those they fear within thier own religion to be radicals and not part of it while theysecretly fear and support them. Thats both dishonrable and cowardly too.-Tyr

[aboutime]

However it does make it clear what Islam says about terrorism. Total condemnation.


jafar. If your line above is to be believed, and accepted as honorable. What would you call those who claim Islam is their guide, while praying to be GOOD MURDERERS?

[jafar00]

Jafar, Like I said even if we cut that in half it is still 50,000,000 people. Hell if you want to say only 1% that is still 10,000,000 people that practice a very different type of religion than yourself (yet call themselves Muslims and practice openly), now I would think that you and your brethren would take the opportunity to eradicate those that are bringing such dishonor to your religion!! Of course that is just me! 10,000,000 people can cause a lot of damage. you do realize that is twice the population of some countries don't you? So you have a small countries worth of lunatics causing problems that makes EVERYONE look bad.

Do you have any evidence to back up a claim of 10million nutcases running around causing strife? If it were that many, not even the combined forces of USA, China and all of Europe could deal with it.


The problem as I see it, is that when you have terrorist actions take place, instead of calling for the excommunication or the heads of these people you and others like you seem to say "well I don't agree with them but you have to understand where they are coming from", "you have to try to understand why they were pushed to this"... Guess what NO I DON"T terrorist tactics are just that, used to cause terror and mayhem on as grand a level as possible. They aren't really fighting for anything they just want to cause as much pain and suffering as they can.....

Exactly. Terrorism is politics, NOT religion.


Until you and other peaceful Muslims clean your own house there will never be an opportunity to cease hostilities!!! Before you start on us cleaning or house we have been trying that and are slowly succeeding in taking back our govt to a more reasonable level. I can say at least we are trying can YOU say the same!?!?!?!?

I'd be happy to report a terrorist if you could point out to me how to recognise one. Anyway, how do you know what we are doing to fight extremism? I've listened to countless lectures in Mosques about how the Prophet Mohamed (saw) taught us to follow a middle or moderate path and to reject extremism of all forms. I've listened to countless condemnations of forming groups to spread mischief in the world like Al Qaeda and such.

Religion is not causing the terrorism, politics is.


jafar. If your line above is to be believed, and accepted as honorable. What would you call those who claim Islam is their guide, while praying to be GOOD MURDERERS?

Criminally insane?

[gabosaurus]

jafar. If your line above is to be believed, and accepted as honorable. What would you call those who claim Islam is their guide, while praying to be GOOD MURDERERS?

Islamic radicals used that line during the Iraqi invasion. They pinned it on Dubya.
Of course, they stole the line from Thatcher, who unleashed her good murderers during the Falklands war.

[jimnyc]

Islamic radicals used that line during the Iraqi invasion. They pinned it on Dubya.
Of course, they stole the line from Thatcher, who unleashed her good murderers during the Falklands war.

What about world leaders calling for the release of murderers, as if they are heroes? Are those leaders radicals?

[gabosaurus]

What about world leaders calling for the release of murderers, as if they are heroes? Are those leaders radicals?

Depends on whether you regard them as murderers or heroes.
A lot of Middle East countries regard Bush as a murderer and want him to meet the same fate as Saddam.

[jimnyc]

Depends on whether you regard them as murderers or heroes.
A lot of Middle East countries regard Bush as a murderer and want him to meet the same fate as Saddam.

Fair enough answer and makes sense. But some people have legitimate proof of direct involvement in murders. I think that's a little different than a world leader, but in their eyes I suppose it's not. As bad as GWB may have been at times, he's not the same as a terrorist sitting in prison that has been convicted of murder.

[jafar00]

Fair enough answer and makes sense. But some people have legitimate proof of direct involvement in murders. I think that's a little different than a world leader, but in their eyes I suppose it's not. As bad as GWB may have been at times, he's not the same as a terrorist sitting in prison that has been convicted of murder.

I can think of a few places where he would be immediately arrested on landing and thrown in prison.

[jimnyc]

I can think of a few places where he would be immediately arrested on landing and thrown in prison.

Because he is so much like murderers being held in prisons for their involvement in terror attacks, 2 involving the WTC. If it weren't for the fact they are Muslims, you wouldn't even be trying to make the lamest of comparisons.

Btw, I can think of a few places I would get arrested on landing as well, likely just for the way I dress, or the way I'll ogle at women and tell them how hot they are, and for trying to pick-up chicks & for insulting a faith I don't believe in. So if nutso countries would be willing to arrest ME for these offenses, or worse, by killing me, I'm not convinced because they would want to arrest GWB.

[jafar00]

Because he is so much like murderers being held in prisons for their involvement in terror attacks, 2 involving the WTC. If it weren't for the fact they are Muslims, you wouldn't even be trying to make the lamest of comparisons.

Because invading two countries not connected with 9/11, killing hundreds of thousands and displacing millions is no comparison :/

[jimnyc]

Because invading two countries not connected with 9/11, killing hundreds of thousands and displacing millions is no comparison :/

Afghanistan harbored Bin Laden, there's your connection. And we didn't go into Iraq as a result of 9/11, or we would have went in at the same time. Read a long list of resolutions on Iraq to learn more about that one. Anyway, GWB received "permission" and funding from our congress and had authority based on UN resolutions.

[SassyLady]

I have no idea what the percentage is because I have yet to meet one of them in the last 15 or so years of extensive travel.

Have you been to Dearborn, MI?


<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vnJBW49afzg?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Have you been to Dearborn, MI?


<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vnJBW49afzg?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

All that throwing hitting them was assault and battery but the cops ignored it! Think they would ignore it if it was being done to muslims?? No way in hell!! This is the fear of and favortism shown by authority in USA when its muslims involved! We have a government that hates Christians and loves muslims. How did that happen? Clearly Islam is against almost all our values and our Constitution! Dem party and muslim alliance is how that happened!
Muslim in hiding infecting the peoples's Whitehouse is how that happened!
Jafar where is the love , where is the tolerance from the muslims there?
Just wait until their population explodes in another 5 to 10 years here !
They will one future day force either complete subjegation or war in the streets here.-Tyr

[jafar00]

Afghanistan harbored Bin Laden, there's your connection. And we didn't go into Iraq as a result of 9/11, or we would have went in at the same time. Read a long list of resolutions on Iraq to learn more about that one. Anyway, GWB received "permission" and funding from our congress and had authority based on UN resolutions.

Iraq was all about the "war on terror" which resulted from the 9/11 attacks. And Afghanistan had nothing to do with it. Yes they were giving sanctuary to Osama, and they offered to hand him over if Bush had evidence that he was guilty. Bush answered with bombs. In other words, he accused Osama without evidence. The Taliban could not hand over in conscience a man that may have been innocent.


Have you been to Dearborn, MI?


<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vnJBW49afzg?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

I heard about this. The Christian missionary group was the most intolerant of the groups. Holding deeply insulting signs, shouting insults while holding a severed pig's head in front of them.

These extremists asked for it. They have been stirring up tension between Muslims and Christians for 3 years now.

I wouldn't expect the other side of the story to be told by the website pushing this video. Their extremist agenda is apparent.


Tensions flared Friday evening at the annual Arab International Festival in Dearborn as members of some Christian missionary groups — including one called the Bible Believers — taunted Arab Americans with a pig’s head and signs that promoted hatred of Islam.

“You’re gonna burn in hell,” one missionary shouted at a group of young Arab-American boys listening to him speak on Warren Avenue, where the festival takes place.
The festival continues today in Dearborn, but the members of the Bible Believers won’t be there because they’ll be protesting a gay festival in Ohio, said Arab Festival organizers.
The three-day festival is the largest public gathering of Arab-Americans in the U.S.; it has drawn Christian missionaries for years, but in 2009, some become more aggressive, leading to arrests and legal feuds. Dearborn has the highest concentration of Arab-Americans in the U.S., many of them Muslim, making it a magnet for some Christian missionaries.
The Bible Believers also protested at last year's Arab Festival, holding up both anti-Muslim and anti-Catholic signs and causing one Arab-American Muslim girl to cry.
About a dozen with the group stood facing the festival on Friday with signs that made bigoted remarks about Islam and its prophet, Mohammed. One of the missionaries had a pig’s head mounted on a pole that he displayed in front of his group. Muslims don’t eat pigs because their faith teaches that the animal is unclean.
Some of the signs the missionaries held read: "Islam is a religion of blood and murder" and "Muhammad (Islam's prophet) is a ... liar, false prophet, murderer, child molesting pervert."
Wayne County sheriffs tried to keep the peace; a few times, three officers on horseback rode by, trying to keep the young Arab Americans at a distance from the Christian missionaries.
At one point, some kids started throwing water bottles and pop cans at the missionaries. Others chanted “Allah-U-Akbar” (God is the greatest). One of the Christians shouted in response “Jesus Akbar.”
At another point, three girls wearing Islamic headscarves yelled back at the missionaries: “Read the Quran,” referring to Islam’s holy book.
A Christian missionary with another group told a group of Arab-American Muslim boys that they are ''transgressing against God.'' One boy then spilled some water on the missionary.
Most of the confrontations were between elderly missionaries and Arab-American kids.
Earlier in the day, a group of Christian missionaries targeted the biggest mosque in Michigan, the Islamic Center of America in Dearborn, standing right outside the mosque lawn to hand out fliers during Friday prayers.
In his Friday sermon, the imam of the mosque, Hassan Al-Qazwini, warned parents that some missionaries at the Arab Festival could target their children for conversion: ''Be careful. ... They could be taken (spiritually) from us.''
Other missionaries at the festival were less confrontational, handing out fliers telling Muslims to convert and handing out free Christian books.
One wore a T-shirt that read ''I (heart symbol) Muslims'' while handing out fliers that urged Muslims to ''accept the Lord Jesus Christ.''
http://www.freep.com/article/20120616/NEWS05/120616015/Christian-missionaries-with-pig-s-head-taunt-Arab-Americans-at-Dearborn-festival

[SassyLady]

Iraq was all about the "war on terror" which resulted from the 9/11 attacks. And Afghanistan had nothing to do with it. Yes they were giving sanctuary to Osama, and they offered to hand him over if Bush had evidence that he was guilty. Bush answered with bombs. In other words, he accused Osama without evidence. The Taliban could not hand over in conscience a man that may have been innocent.

I find it ironic that you think the Taliban has a conscience.



I heard about this. The Christian missionary group was the most intolerant of the groups. Holding deeply insulting signs, shouting insults while holding a severed pig's head in front of them.

These extremists asked for it. They have been stirring up tension between Muslims and Christians for 3 years now.

I wouldn't expect the other side of the story to be told by the website pushing this video. Their extremist agenda is apparent.


http://www.freep.com/article/20120616/NEWS05/120616015/Christian-missionaries-with-pig-s-head-taunt-Arab-Americans-at-Dearborn-festival

Perhaps those Muslims forgot they are in America where free speech is supposed to be a right that is protected.

What do you think would happen if citizens that respect the flag starting stoning anyone who burned it. It is extremely offensive to me when that happens....but I would never throw stones or bottles filled with urine on someone who did burn the flag.

I truly don't understand why you would even think those hateful Muslims had a right to do what they did.

Also, you said you had never run into a violent Muslim ... and then I showed you what we see and face here in America and you try to justify it instead of saying ... "oh, you are right ... there are violent Muslims ..... but only when they are being intolerant."

[jimnyc]

Iraq was all about the "war on terror" which resulted from the 9/11 attacks. And Afghanistan had nothing to do with it. Yes they were giving sanctuary to Osama, and they offered to hand him over if Bush had evidence that he was guilty. Bush answered with bombs. In other words, he accused Osama without evidence. The Taliban could not hand over in conscience a man that may have been innocent.


But Afghanistan WAS still about 9/11 and Osama. Our government simply wasn't going to wheel and deal with a terrorist organization in order to get another terrorist. Osama was already wanted for prior crimes, dating back to the early 90's, so it was a no brainer. The man was guilty of planning quite a few crimes against America and our allies, and then of course 9/11. The information about Osama was known worldwide even before 9/11, hence people blaming him for 9/11 a mere few minutes after the attacks, he was a known quantity in the terror world. Don't kid yourself, everyone knew, and the Taliban weren't going to release him with irrefutable proof of prior actions, they weren't going to just hand him over with further proof.

And Iraq was NOT "all about the war on terror". I don't know why you guys think if repeating this so many times will magically make it come true. The endless resolutions that started in 1991, were they about the war on terror, specific things that happened AFTER they started these resolutions? These resolutions in fact barely touched the terror subject until things got much closer to 2003. It's easy to repeat the crap about blaming terrorists and WMD, this way people can rewrite history. From 1991, to the Democrats repeating the same thing in 1998, to 2003, people were trying to get Saddam to cooperate with investigators, stop killing his own people, stop the crap with Kuwait, stop with the oppression... The war on terror as we know it today started after 9/11. The entire thing started against Iraq in 1991 and hit a head in 1998 when investigators were tossed out. This was after they bagged and tagged all kinds of WMD, including TONS of chemical weapons. Many of these completely disappeared by the time investigators returned in 2001. 2 years after that, they were still unaccounted for, and Saddam still thumbed his nose and played his games. Sorry, 9/11 wasn't the reason we invaded, nor was the war on terror itself, but they probably changed the complexion of things.

Let me ask you, Jafar. You seem to have a lot of knowledge on the subject. What proof DID the US have at the time of going into Afghanistan? Why were they hell bent on Osama if there was no proof?

[jimnyc]

I heard about this. The Christian missionary group was the most intolerant of the groups. Holding deeply insulting signs, shouting insults while holding a severed pig's head in front of them.

These extremists asked for it.

Do you believe insults and such should be responded to with any sort of violence at all? Or does this answer depend on what part of the world you reside in?

[jimnyc]

I find it ironic that you think the Taliban has a conscience.

Eggzactly! These are people who saw off heads, chop them off with nice and sharp swords and basically terrorize the entire nation to stay in control. Obama should invite them to the WH for a beer!


What do you think would happen if citizens that respect the flag starting stoning anyone who burned it. It is extremely offensive to me when that happens....but I would never throw stones or bottles filled with urine on someone who did burn the flag.

I truly don't understand why you would even think those hateful Muslims had a right to do what they did.

Also, you said you had never run into a violent Muslim ... and then I showed you what we see and face here in America and you try to justify it instead of saying ... "oh, you are right ... there are violent Muslims ..... but only when they are being intolerant."

Muslims are very peaceful people and the Quran doesn't allow for violent actions. But when pushed, there's ALWAYS an excuse for their actions, and if not, they will be denied as not being Muslims.

[Gaffer]

jafar says:


Iraq was all about the "war on terror" which resulted from the 9/11 attacks. And Afghanistan had nothing to do with it. Yes they were giving sanctuary to Osama, and they offered to hand him over if Bush had evidence that he was guilty. Bush answered with bombs. In other words, he accused Osama without evidence. The Taliban could not hand over in conscience a man that may have been innocent.

Once again your totally wrong in your excuse making. Jim covered the iraq part. As for afghan, there wasn't any bombing until later. Special Forces went in and aided the rebels in the northern alliance. They began an offensive that took over afghan with air support from the US. Most of the fighting was done by the northern alliance. There was no bombing of cities.

Do you actually believe the taliban were just a bunch of misunderstood nice guys?

[aboutime]

jafar says:



Once again your totally wrong in your excuse making. Jim covered the iraq part. As for afghan, there wasn't any bombing until later. Special Forces went in and aided the rebels in the northern alliance. They began an offensive that took over afghan with air support from the US. Most of the fighting was done by the northern alliance. There was no bombing of cities.

Do you actually believe the taliban were just a bunch of misunderstood nice guys?

Yes. Gaffer. That is what jafar Must believe to remain a member in Good standing of the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Taliban whom he loves for practicing the Religion of Peace, AS THEY SEE IT. Not as the Good Book tells them to practice it.

[jafar00]

I find it ironic that you think the Taliban has a conscience.

In some cases they are right even if they are wrong about 75% of the time. Bearing false witness is a serious crime in Sharia law. Handing over a man for trial without evidence of his guilt would be the same.


Do you believe insults and such should be responded to with any sort of violence at all? Or does this answer depend on what part of the world you reside in?

You can only push people too far before they crack. I can say for sure that if one of them made my wife cry (a young muslim girl was reportedly reduced to tears), it would get my gander up.


Muslims are very peaceful people and the Quran doesn't allow for violent actions. But when pushed, there's ALWAYS an excuse for their actions, and if not, they will be denied as not being Muslims.

Christians in the US are constantly hounding and demonstrating against Muslims. Hurling insults, and showing intense intolerance. You might like to note that despite the number of protests outside mosques, the number of incidents where Muslims lashed out violently is extremely small. In Dearborn, something must have sparked it off.

[jimnyc]

You can only push people too far before they crack. I can say for sure that if one of them made my wife cry (a young muslim girl was reportedly reduced to tears), it would get my gander up.

That's avoiding my question!

If someone should insult Islam, do you think it's appropriate to respond with violence? And does this stance change depending on what part of the world you reside in? Now keep in mind, I believe you're already on record in the Egyptian TV thread as stating that a woman should never be hit for no reason. Or are you now saying a mere verbal insult is enough to hit a woman?

[jimnyc]

Christians in the US are constantly hounding and demonstrating against Muslims. Hurling insults, and showing intense intolerance. You might like to note that despite the number of protests outside mosques, the number of incidents where Muslims lashed out violently is extremely small. In Dearborn, something must have sparked it off.

We have lots of protests about a lot of things in the US. It's a right guaranteed to us mostly, so we exercise it. Insults and intolerance are completely legal, so long as you don't assault anyone or cross over lines into harassment. The worst case scenario, if someone does so, they could get a citation or arrested. But in NONE of the scenarios is it legal to retaliate with physical violence. It might be a small amount of Muslims, but they would be in the wrong.

And if Islam was insulted by Christians in Iran, or Egypt, how different do you think the results would be? Suppose a Christian in one of those 2 places, simply wanted his OPINION to be seen via a placard like so many hold at protests, and this Christian held a picture depicting Muhammed, in a bad light of course. Here in America, you might piss of a Muslim or 2 if you do so, but it's legal. A Muslim might retaliate with violence, and he would rightfully be arrested for doing so. What would happen to this protestor in Iran or Egypt?

[taft2012]

Mohammad had cooties. lol.

[jafar00]

That's avoiding my question!

If someone should insult Islam, do you think it's appropriate to respond with violence? And does this stance change depending on what part of the world you reside in? Now keep in mind, I believe you're already on record in the Egyptian TV thread as stating that a woman should never be hit for no reason. Or are you now saying a mere verbal insult is enough to hit a woman?

If you taunt someone hard enough for long enough, sooner or later even the most patient of men is going to give you what you asked for. A punch in the nose.


We have lots of protests about a lot of things in the US. It's a right guaranteed to us mostly, so we exercise it. Insults and intolerance are completely legal, so long as you don't assault anyone or cross over lines into harassment. The worst case scenario, if someone does so, they could get a citation or arrested. But in NONE of the scenarios is it legal to retaliate with physical violence. It might be a small amount of Muslims, but they would be in the wrong.

And if Islam was insulted by Christians in Iran, or Egypt, how different do you think the results would be? Suppose a Christian in one of those 2 places, simply wanted his OPINION to be seen via a placard like so many hold at protests, and this Christian held a picture depicting Muhammed, in a bad light of course. Here in America, you might piss of a Muslim or 2 if you do so, but it's legal. A Muslim might retaliate with violence, and he would rightfully be arrested for doing so. What would happen to this protestor in Iran or Egypt?

I'm sure you would agree that these "missionaries" would better serve their purpose by having placards with scriptural truth rather than untrue insults and taunts.

[jimnyc]

If you taunt someone hard enough for long enough, sooner or later even the most patient of men is going to give you what you asked for. A punch in the nose.

I'm curious why you are avoiding this question, or is this a lame admission that Muslims DO think it's appropriate to respond to insults with violence? And I'm not talking about prolonged year round insulting, but perhaps one time in the midst of a protest. From what I understand, Muslims will revert to violence with the first insult, and legally speaking, perhaps assualt and/or up to killing for these insults. In this modern age, to want to resort to violence and or killing because of an insult, is quite sickening. And it's also at odds with your previous words that women should never be hit. I can think of instances, ONLY within Islam, where a woman could be beaten for an insult and MUCH worse, up to and including death. That's not a very tolerant religion, is it? Or, maybe it's OK in certain parts of the world, just not in places like the USA where we have decent laws and uphold them equally?


I'm sure you would agree that these "missionaries" would better serve their purpose by having placards with scriptural truth rather than untrue insults and taunts.

Perhaps, I suppose it depends on their audience. But regardless of their delivery, so long as it's not physical, they should never be met in return with physical violence.

I find it VERY telling that you go through all this avoidance dealing with questions on how Muslims will respond to insults, or how they're allowed to respond, as per Shariah law.

[aboutime]

I'm curious why you are avoiding this question, or is this a lame admission that Muslims DO think it's appropriate to respond to insults with violence? And I'm not talking about prolonged year round insulting, but perhaps one time in the midst of a protest. From what I understand, Muslims will revert to violence with the first insult, and legally speaking, perhaps assualt and/or up to killing for these insults. In this modern age, to want to resort to violence and or killing because of an insult, is quite sickening. And it's also at odds with your previous words that women should never be hit. I can think of instances, ONLY within Islam, where a woman could be beaten for an insult and MUCH worse, up to and including death. That's not a very tolerant religion, is it? Or, maybe it's OK in certain parts of the world, just not in places like the USA where we have decent laws and uphold them equally?



Perhaps, I suppose it depends on their audience. But regardless of their delivery, so long as it's not physical, they should never be met in return with physical violence.

I find it VERY telling that you go through all this avoidance dealing with questions on how Muslims will respond to insults, or how they're allowed to respond, as per Shariah law.


Here we have jafar...taking his Religion of Peace to a different level. A level we call violence....and IN THE NAME OF THAT RELIGION.
Punching someone in the nose. Or threatening to respond by punching someone in the nose is the very same thing....as WEARING A BOMB on your body jafar. Both will get you all the GLORY you seek...while pretending you, and you alone are permitted to Interpret that Religion you claim is Peaceful...in any way you say, or desire.
Hypocrisy and Hatred are your CODE jafar. You can't hide it any longer. Go and find your 72 year old Virgin Homosexual like Ahmadinnerjacket and SWALLOW.


By the way jafar. You should stop the TAUNTING, and practice what you claim to preach.

[Nukeman]

If you taunt someone hard enough for long enough, sooner or later even the most patient of men is going to give you what you asked for. A punch in the nose.



I'm sure you would agree that these "missionaries" would better serve their purpose by having placards with scriptural truth rather than untrue insults and taunts.
I watched the entire video just now, I have to say Jafar MOST of those involved in the taunting were the Muslim youth!! They were swearing and insulting the men standing there. I am NOT condoning the men being there because I believe they were there for the sole purpose of getting a rise out of the Muslim community, however; It would have been just as easy for the Muslims to WALK AWAY from these men as was for them to stand there and cuss them out and THROW things at them.

I think you are under the misunderstanding that it is OK to throw things at people you don't agree with. Jimmy asked you a question as to whether or not YOU think it is appropriate to use violence when confronted with WORDS, are you going to answer that or not???? If all you have are sticks and stones in the face of insults or taunts than your religious beliefs can not be that strong now can they!!!

In the US we have the freedom to protest/call names/insult/counter argue/give differing opinions/etc... But you DO NOT have the right to assault someone you DISAGREE with. That is some of the most barbaric excuse for young adults I have seen in a long time. I find it funny that the adults stood way back and allowed the children to step up and assault these men, is that because all they will get is a slap on the rest as a misguided youth and the adults may get arrested.
Why is it OK for the Muslims to be pushed to far but when it’s the “fanatics” in Islam that push others and we say ENOUGH you and your brethren call us intolerant?? Why is it that when violence is pointed out in the name of Islam there is ALWAYS an excuse as to why it happened? Why Jafar?? Why?

[gabosaurus]

Here we have jafar...taking his Religion of Peace to a different level. A level we call violence....and IN THE NAME OF THAT RELIGION..
Hypocrisy and Hatred are your CODE jafar. You can't hide it any longer. Go and find your 72 year old Virgin Homosexual like Ahmadinnerjacket and SWALLOW.
By the way jafar. You should stop the TAUNTING, and practice what you claim to preach.

You of all people should talk. Your hate speech is as vitriolic as any Muslim extremist. You are taking your ignorant distortions of truth and misconceptions and turning them into cyber taunts with terrorist overtones.
You are one of those who claim to be religious and peaceful, but yet you speak of hatred. I would say that you are more likely to set off bombs and weapons that Jafar.

[jimnyc]

You of all people should talk. Your hate speech is as vitriolic as any Muslim extremist. You are taking your ignorant distortions of truth and misconceptions and turning them into cyber taunts with terrorist overtones.
You are one of those who claim to be religious and peaceful, but yet you speak of hatred. I would say that you are more likely to set off bombs and weapons that Jafar.

Be that as it may, his words, and your opinions of his words - if aboutime were to draw a funny picture making fun of Muhammed, or Islam, or burnt a Quran... While I'll be the first to agree with you that it's not right - do you think it would be fair to kill him for his insulting of Islam or Muhammed?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Be that as it may, his words, and your opinions of his words - if aboutime were to draw a funny picture making fun of Muhammed, or Islam, or burnt a Quran... While I'll be the first to agree with you that it's not right - do you think it would be fair to kill him for his insulting of Islam or Muhammed?

I'd say yes likely that she would because her new love affair is with her majestic muslim neighbors Jim.
After her posts here she should be one of the last ones trying to preach about hatred IMHO.
I've seen her flip flop dozens of times and have known my friend aboutime for over 5 years , never seen him flip flop on his principles. NEVER! Thats integrity my friend. What does she have besides a big mouth and little libby brain?

[jafar00]

I'm curious why you are avoiding this question, or is this a lame admission that Muslims DO think it's appropriate to respond to insults with violence? And I'm not talking about prolonged year round insulting, but perhaps one time in the midst of a protest. From what I understand, Muslims will revert to violence with the first insult, and legally speaking, perhaps assualt and/or up to killing for these insults. In this modern age, to want to resort to violence and or killing because of an insult, is quite sickening. And it's also at odds with your previous words that women should never be hit. I can think of instances, ONLY within Islam, where a woman could be beaten for an insult and MUCH worse, up to and including death. That's not a very tolerant religion, is it? Or, maybe it's OK in certain parts of the world, just not in places like the USA where we have decent laws and uphold them equally?

I'm not talking about religion. I'm talking about human beings. We all have a limits to our patience. It seems these young kids who started throwing things have less patience than their elders. That could have something to do with the influences of American society that they have grown up in?

Was it right? No. But we are all human and we all have our faults.


Here we have jafar...taking his Religion of Peace to a different level. A level we call violence....and IN THE NAME OF THAT RELIGION.
Punching someone in the nose. Or threatening to respond by punching someone in the nose is the very same thing....as WEARING A BOMB on your body jafar. Both will get you all the GLORY you seek...while pretending you, and you alone are permitted to Interpret that Religion you claim is Peaceful...in any way you say, or desire.
Hypocrisy and Hatred are your CODE jafar. You can't hide it any longer. Go and find your 72 year old Virgin Homosexual like Ahmadinnerjacket and SWALLOW.


By the way jafar. You should stop the TAUNTING, and practice what you claim to preach.

Seriously? Suicide and killing innocents is forbidden in Sharia law and the 72 virgin chestnut has no basis in Islamic scripture.

[jimnyc]

I'm not talking about religion. I'm talking about human beings. We all have a limits to our patience. It seems these young kids who started throwing things have less patience than their elders. That could have something to do with the influences of American society that they have grown up in?

Was it right? No. But we are all human and we all have our faults.


We were talking about responses to insults, and whether or not violence was a proper response. Within much of Islam, there are severe penalties for such actions, and many of them call for death. For example, as you know, if someone mocks Muhammed, speaks ill of Allah, claiming to be a prophet or a messenger.

Under Shariah Law, if someone insults Muhammed or Allah, they are supposed to be put to death. Same if someone desecrates the Quran. There are many things on the "blasphemy" definition for Mulsims where all kinds of fucked up punishments are given for reasons that harm no one. In other words, violent responses. Simply because someone makes fun of Muhammed, or perhaps makes a funny cartoon, they will try and put that person to death. You know what I'm talking about and that's why you are avoiding this discussion. There is simply no defending such violent acts for such petty "crimes". As goes the same with Apostasy, which is another non-violent act, that in many places is reason to be put to death.

Here in America it's part of our foundation to be different, and we can protest, and have free speech to have our voices heard - and we are not met with assaults and perhaps death for doing so, at least not as a matter of practice.

[aboutime]

jafar is now insisting he is not talking about Religion.

Anyone who has listened, or studied the ways of those who are destined to follow through with their threats to kill us...THE INFIDELS, has this tactic down to a science.
No matter what you say to them. No matter how many actual facts you present to them. They always deny their intentions are based on Religion. And the truth is. The Koran, or Quoran...which ever spelling you want. Tells it's followers to KILL those who are not followers.
JAFAR is an imposter. And I dare say. More than a Phony, Pretend Prophet of DEATH.
Sounding like a true follower of the Prophet...OBAMA as well.

[jafar00]

We were talking about responses to insults, and whether or not violence was a proper response. Within much of Islam, there are severe penalties for such actions, and many of them call for death. For example, as you know, if someone mocks Muhammed, speaks ill of Allah, claiming to be a prophet or a messenger.

Under Shariah Law, if someone insults Muhammed or Allah, they are supposed to be put to death. Same if someone desecrates the Quran. There are many things on the "blasphemy" definition for Mulsims where all kinds of fucked up punishments are given for reasons that harm no one. In other words, violent responses. Simply because someone makes fun of Muhammed, or perhaps makes a funny cartoon, they will try and put that person to death. You know what I'm talking about and that's why you are avoiding this discussion. There is simply no defending such violent acts for such petty "crimes". As goes the same with Apostasy, which is another non-violent act, that in many places is reason to be put to death.

Here in America it's part of our foundation to be different, and we can protest, and have free speech to have our voices heard - and we are not met with assaults and perhaps death for doing so, at least not as a matter of practice.

You are talking about Apostacy for which there is no prescribed punishment in the Qur'aan except in the afterlife. If a country decides to have a death penalty or punishment for it, it is of their own making and has no place in Sharia.

edit for aboutime: And yes NOW I am talking about religion.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

[QUOTE=jafar00;570950]You are talking about Apostacy for which there is no prescribed punishment in the Qur'aan except in the afterlife. If a country decides to have a death penalty or punishment for it, it is of their own making and has no place in Sharia.

That is an absolute lie and you know it. Sharia law often dictates death penalty for the very things Jim listed .
Muslim controlled nations/governments institute Sharia law as the Law of the Land . Why do you deny it and attempt to spin it into a radical non-muslim act? Islam is a militant relgion that has terror and murder as its Sword and Sharia law as its Hammer. This has been revealed everywhere that it has gained control of the national government and then instituted Sharia Law.. You must think the members here as dumb as a box of rocks! Or else you just can not help yourself. Very likely a combination of the two.-Tyr

[taft2012]

Jafar, maybe you can answer:

Huma Abedin's father was in the Muslim Brotherhood
Her mother is in the Muslim Sisterhood
Her brother is in the Muslim Brotherhood.

She's married to a Jew and works for the Great Satan.

How is she not under some kind of death sentence, at the very least from within her own family?

[jimnyc]

You are talking about Apostacy for which there is no prescribed punishment in the Qur'aan except in the afterlife. If a country decides to have a death penalty or punishment for it, it is of their own making and has no place in Sharia.

edit for aboutime: And yes NOW I am talking about religion.

I'm talking about MUCH more than Apostasy, and you must have purposely ignored the rest of my post about insulting in Islam and the violence prescribed in return for those insults.

There are many countries that will still kill Muslims who try to convert away. Even more places where you might be killed if you Insult Islam, and almost definitely so if you insult Allah or Muhammed. Or claiming to be a messenger or prophet. There are so many "blasphemy" rules in place where non-violent people will be met with violence up til death, simply for their beliefs or opinions. And this IS in Sharia Law and the Hadith.

What happens to an American on American soil if they make fun of Muhammed? And if that same person is on Iranian soil? Or Egyptian soil?

And what happens if a Muslim in America converts to Christianity? And if he does so in Saudi Arabia? Or so many other hard line areas?

Back to my original comments - it is in black and white within the Islamic faith, what should happen to people who Insult Islam, Muhammed, Allah, desecrate the Quran, any prophet.

How about a few lame examples of what happens for things that won't even bat an eyelash elsewhere...

Finding any fault with Muhammed:
http://allafrica.com/stories/200906221085.html
http://allafrica.com/stories/200808110940.html
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2008/108385.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~INDIA_RESOURCE/ifpakistan.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-10696762

Claiming to be a prophet:
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/20020210.htm
http://www.webcitation.org/5px52XxdQ

Drawing a picture of Muhammed:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2008/108385.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/02/18/cartoon.roundup/index.html
http://www.bosnewslife.com/3435-3435-nigeria-christians-killed-in-riot-over-blasph
http://online.wsj.com/articleSB122099204692716155.html?mod=opinion_main_ commentaries
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL015190420080701

Naming a teddy bear "Muhammed":
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/11/26/sudan.bear/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/12/world/death-to-blasphemers-islam-s-grip-on-pakistan.html
http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsSept2001/newsbeat.htm

Speaking against Islamic leaders:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2012/02/04/story_4-2-2012_pg7_16

Finding fault with Islam:
http://persecution.org/news/Press_Releases/PR_2002/press2002-08-15.html
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/11/19/pakistan-dubai-should-end-shutdown-pakistani-channels
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2008/108498.htm
http://rumiahmed.wordpress.com/2007/09/30/chronology-of-major-blasphemy-cases-in-bangladesh-1972-2007/

Whistling during a prayer:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2007/90137.htm

I could go on and on and on about innocent crimes that are generally met with violent reactions, and not just from witnesses and the public - but prescribed penalties.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Jafar, maybe you can answer:

Huma Abedin's father was in the Muslim Brotherhood
Her mother is in the Muslim Sisterhood
Her brother is in the Muslim Brotherhood.

She's married to a Jew and works for the Great Satan.

How is she not under some kind of death sentence, at the very least from within her own family?

Good luck on getting Jafar to answer that question. Muslims almost always refuse to talk about other "muslims in hiding" because they are instructed in their mosques what not to talk about with infidels! I seriously believe that a great many of them know obama is a "muslim in hiding" and therfore he is doing Allah's will. This is allowed in their ffed up religion and is considered a great honor. Even in the relgion they reward treachery!
I too, dare Jafar to post replies to both our posts about this .-Tyr

[jafar00]

That is an absolute lie and you know it. Sharia law often dictates death penalty for the very things Jim listed .
Muslim controlled nations/governments institute Sharia law as the Law of the Land . Why do you deny it and attempt to spin it into a radical non-muslim act? Islam is a militant relgion that has terror and murder as its Sword and Sharia law as its Hammer. This has been revealed everywhere that it has gained control of the national government and then instituted Sharia Law.. You must think the members here as dumb as a box of rocks! Or else you just can not help yourself. Very likely a combination of the two.-Tyr

What men make up and what God sent down to us as a message are often very different things.

Since you are such a scholar, would you mind pointing out to me where in the Qur'aan it is stated that there is any kind of punishment for apostacy or disbelief?


Jafar, maybe you can answer:

Huma Abedin's father was in the Muslim Brotherhood
Her mother is in the Muslim Sisterhood
Her brother is in the Muslim Brotherhood.

She's married to a Jew and works for the Great Satan.

How is she not under some kind of death sentence, at the very least from within her own family?

Why would she have a death sentence? Perhaps there could be some misguided soul in her family carrying on ancient pre-Islamic tribal customs such as honour killing, but in Islam nothing of the sort.


Good luck on getting Jafar to answer that question. Muslims almost always refuse to talk about other "muslims in hiding" because they are instructed in their mosques what not to talk about with infidels! I seriously believe that a great many of them know obama is a "muslim in hiding" and therfore he is doing Allah's will. This is allowed in their ffed up religion and is considered a great honor. Even in the relgion they reward treachery!
I too, dare Jafar to post replies to both our posts about this .-Tyr

You may continue to believe Barack Obama is a Muslim despite the evidence clearly showing that he is a Christian.

[jimnyc]

What men make up and what God sent down to us as a message are often very different things.

Since you are such a scholar, would you mind pointing out to me where in the Qur'aan it is stated that there is any kind of punishment for apostacy or disbelief?

First off, thanks for continually ignoring all of the other abuses that Islam dictates for petty opinions and such. This is why many have a problem with Islam, so many commit atrocities, and the "peaceful" side turn a blind eye. And please don't act like these punishments for insults and apostasy rarely happen, it happens all the time.


The Qur'an (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an) states that God (in Arabic, Allah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah)) despises apostasy, with severe punishment to be imposed in the hereafter, but not mentioning explicitly any earthly penalty for apostates. Except 16:106-109, the verses that discuss apostasy all appear in surahs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sura) identified as Madinan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madinan_sura), that is, they belong to the period when the Islamic state had been established.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Qur.27an

Here's a good read - http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm


Apostasy (ارتداد, irtidād and ridda) i.e. the rejection of faith has been, and still is, a serious offense in Islam (http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam). The punishment for apostasy as prescribed by Muhammad (http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Muhammad) is death. An apostate (مرتد murtad) who hides his apostasy is referred to as a munāfiq (منافق hypocrite).

http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Apostasy

And the best of all, from those that aren't PC about what they write:


The Qur'an:

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."


From the Hadith:

The reason why executing apostates has always been well-ensconced in Islamic law is that there is an indisputable record of Muhammad and his companions doing exactly that according to the reliable Hadith. According to verse 4:80 of the Quran: "Whoso obeyeth the Messenger obeyeth Allah."

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " Note that there is no distinction as to how that Muslim came to be a Muslim.

Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Bukhari (84:57) - [In the words of] "Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"

Abu Dawud (4346) - "Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?" Muhammad is chastising his companions for allowing an apostate to "repent" under duress. (The person in question was Muhammad's former scribe who left him after doubting the authenticity of divine "revelations" upon finding out that he could suggest grammatical changes. He was brought back to Muhammad after having been captured in Medina).

Reliance of the Traveller (Islamic Law) o8.1 - "When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed." (o8.4 affirms that there is no penalty for killing an apostate).

Islamic Law:

There is also a consensus by all four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (i.e., Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi, and Shafii), as well as classical Shiite jurists, that apostates from Islam must be put to death. The process of declaring a person to be an apostate is known as takfir and the apostate is called a murtadd.

Averroes (d. 1198), the renowned philosopher and scholar of the natural sciences, who was also an important Maliki jurist, provided this typical Muslim legal opinion on the punishment for apostasy: "An apostate...is to be executed by agreement in the case of a man, because of the words of the Prophet, 'Slay those who change their din [religion]'...Asking the apostate to repent was stipulated as a condition...prior to his execution."

The contemporary (i.e., 1991) Al-Azhar (Cairo) Islamic Research Academy endorsed manual of Islamic Law, Umdat al-Salik (pp. 595-96) states: "Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst.... When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostasizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed. In such a case, it is obligatory...to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed."

The equivalent, gravely negative implications of the OIC's Sharia-based Cairo Declaration are most apparent in its transparent rejection of freedom of conscience in Article 10, which proclaims: "Islam is the religion of unspoiled nature. It is prohibited to exercise any form of compulsion on man or to exploit his poverty or ignorance in order to convert him to another religion, or to atheism." Ominously, articles 19 and 22 reiterate a principle stated elsewhere throughout the document, which clearly applies to the "punishment" of so-called "apostates" from Islam: "[19d] There shall be no crime or punishment except as provided for in the Sharia.; [22a] Everyone shall have the right to express his opinion freely in such manner as would not be contrary to the principles of the Sharia.; [22b] Everyone shall have the right to advocate what is right, and propagate what is good, and warn against what is wrong and evil according to the norms of Islamic Sharia.; [22c] Information is a vital necessity to society. It may not be exploited or misused in such a way as may violate sanctities and the dignity of Prophets, undermine moral and ethical values or disintegrate, corrupt or harm society or weaken its faith."

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/012-apostasy.htm

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

What men make up and what God sent down to us as a message are often very different things.




You may continue to believe Barack Obama is a Muslim despite the evidence clearly showing that he is a Christian.

Really(?), a Christian! OK, cite your proof of that .

[jimnyc]

Really(?), a Christian! OK, cite your proof of that .

Well, I believe that is true, so he'll be back to answer. But just ask him about blasphemy laws and how Islam treats people who insult Muhammed, or Allah, or desecrate the Quran... what happens in so many Islamic countries around the world if you do these things. Hell, it's right there in the Quran and Hadith.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Well, I believe that is true, so he'll be back to answer.

I do not believe obama is a Christian , for that too is just another part of his false image. PART OF HIS COVER , FOR HE APPEARS TO BE A "MUSLIM IN HIDING" TO ME. If not familiar with that term look it up and get an eyeful of a religion that will allow its follower to renounce it in order to fool the enemy to gain advantage. Attending a Christian church does not make a person a Christian , being Saved, accepting Christ and being Baptised does. Any known record of obama doing ANY OF THAT? Anything other than his being a member of the Black Seperatist Church/Religion under Rev Wright which is as much or even more leftist political as it is religious.-Tyr


But just ask him about blasphemy laws and how Islam treats people who insult Muhammed, or Allah, or desecrate the Quran... what happens in so many Islamic countries around the world if you do these things. Hell, it's right there in the Quran and Hadith.

He will use the 'ole standard reply that not all muslims follow the Koran faithfully as an excuse were I to ask. And with that imply that the Koran does not permit such actions. As if Jihad is not a part of Islam..-Tyr

[aboutime]

I honestly have no other way to say this. So. In keeping with my pledge to myself, my family, and everyone else who knows me in any way. I cannot, and will not tip-toe around here to lie, or make anything up.

The member we know who calls himself jafar, is a phony. He is a shill. Much like that Wolf in Sheeps clothing most of us are familiar with.
Like Obama. WHO IS NOT A CHRISTIAN, but a pretender who claims to be a Christian to appease, and quell those who question his authenticity.

jafar is a mouthpiece for the enemies of the United States. jafar only pretends to be genuine in his opinions designed to incite, and disrupt the other members of this forum.
Shrewd tactics developed to gain the trust of the ADMIN of DebatePolicy allow jafar to hide, just below the surface of truth.
I know many of you will disagree here.
So be it.
Be warned.

[fj1200]

^Oh brother. :rolleyes:

[Kathianne]

I don't think Obama is religious, not a Christian, not a Muslim, Jew, or Wiccan, not even a deist. I think he pretty much has a 'rationalist' philosophy and he's the center of it all. In a way reminds me of Ayn Rand, without capitalism.

[jafar00]

Well, I believe that is true, so he'll be back to answer. But just ask him about blasphemy laws and how Islam treats people who insult Muhammed, or Allah, or desecrate the Quran... what happens in so many Islamic countries around the world if you do these things. Hell, it's right there in the Quran and Hadith.

The Qur'aan has no punishment for. apostasy. What you pasted above randomly doesn't even talk about it. Also typical of anti Islam sites is the random selection of hadiths taken with no regard to context or whether they are weak or even fake.

I have asked a sheikh and he said the same as I did. There is no prescribed punishment for apostasy in the Qur'aan.



I honestly have no other way to say this. So. In keeping with my pledge to myself, my family, and everyone else who knows me in any way. I cannot, and will not tip-toe around here to lie, or make anything up.

The member we know who calls himself jafar, is a phony. He is a shill. Much like that Wolf in Sheeps clothing most of us are familiar with.
Like Obama. WHO IS NOT A CHRISTIAN, but a pretender who claims to be a Christian to appease, and quell those who question his authenticity.

jafar is a mouthpiece for the enemies of the United States. jafar only pretends to be genuine in his opinions designed to incite, and disrupt the other members of this forum.
Shrewd tactics developed to gain the trust of the ADMIN of DebatePolicy allow jafar to hide, just below the surface of truth.
I know many of you will disagree here.
So be it.
Be warned.



I like turtles.


The response makes about as much sense as you just made.

[jafar00]

Well, I believe that is true, so he'll be back to answer. But just ask him about blasphemy laws and how Islam treats people who insult Muhammed, or Allah, or desecrate the Quran... what happens in so many Islamic countries around the world if you do these things. Hell, it's right there in the Quran and Hadith.


I honestly have no other way to say this. So. In keeping with my pledge to myself, my family, and everyone else who knows me in any way. I cannot, and will not tip-toe around here to lie, or make anything up.

The member we know who calls himself jafar, is a phony. He is a shill. Much like that Wolf in Sheeps clothing most of us are familiar with.
Like Obama. WHO IS NOT A CHRISTIAN, but a pretender who claims to be a Christian to appease, and quell those who question his authenticity.

jafar is a mouthpiece for the enemies of the United States. jafar only pretends to be genuine in his opinions designed to incite, and disrupt the other members of this forum.
Shrewd tactics developed to gain the trust of the ADMIN of DebatePolicy allow jafar to hide, just below the surface of truth.
I know many of you will disagree here.
So be it.
Be warned.


He will use the 'ole standard reply that not all muslims follow the Koran faithfully as an excuse were I to ask. And with that imply that the Koran does not permit such actions. As if Jihad is not a part of Islam..-Tyr

Jihad is indeed a part of Islam. You just don't understand it. Jihad is fasting in 35c weather with 100% humidity. Talk about a dry throat :o

[aboutime]

Jihad is indeed a part of Islam. You just don't understand it. Jihad is fasting in 35c weather with 100% humidity. Talk about a dry throat :o


jafar. You are such an obvious DANCER. You dance around everything without actually stepping in the crap you hope...nobody will notice, all over your dirty shoes.
Talking in circles, dancing around in circles, and pretending there is no crap to step in reminds me of Obama. And the two of you are merely TWO BRICKS short of a load.

[jimnyc]

The Qur'aan has no punishment for. apostasy. What you pasted above randomly doesn't even talk about it. Also typical of anti Islam sites is the random selection of hadiths taken with no regard to context or whether they are weak or even fake.

I have asked a sheikh and he said the same as I did. There is no prescribed punishment for apostasy in the Qur'aan.


Well, many translate it differently, and FAR too many pervert it then, as killings happen all the time for apostasy. I won't even bother to try and get you to discuss blasphemy laws and punishments for various forms of insults in Islam. The reality speaks for itself. The writings in Islam as to blasphemy speaks volumes, and the assaults and murders as a result scream volumes.

[jimnyc]

jafar. You are such an obvious DANCER.

He even quoted me in his last reply about blasphemy and such, and then ignored it in his response.

[Drummond]

Jim's already covered this material. However, for Jafar's benefit, here's another source that says the same thing about the death penalty for apostacy being in the Koran.

This site - and they should know what they're talking about ! - has devoted a page to this very subject ...

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/08/is-the-death-penalty-for-apostasy-in-the-quran-yes-it-is-sweet-little-rifqa.html

Jim cited a source that this link also cites to prove the point.


Meanwhile, 4:89 says this:

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they). But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.

Thus those who have fled from what is forbidden, i.e., embraced Islam, should be killed if they "turn renegades." The Tafsir al-Jalalayn, another venerable and respected commentary on the Qur'an, explains that a Muslim should not trust these people "until they emigrate in the way of God, a proper emigration that would confirm their belief" -- that is, if they leave their homes to join up with the Muslims. "Then, if they turn away, and remain upon their ways, take them, as captives, and slay them wherever you find them." Here again, no attempt is made, in this Qur'an commentary or any of those that Muslims revere as trustworthy, to explain that this does not actually mean that one should kill the "renegade."

And of course al-Marayati focuses narrowly on Rifqa's statement about the Qur'an. He never mentions, although he surely must know, that Muhammad said "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him," and that this statement in the Hadith (in which it appears several times) became the foundation for the unanimous verdict of all the schools of Islamic jurisprudence: the apostate must be killed.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Apostasy in Islam


Source--- http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/012-apostasy.htm

A Sample of Modern Day Treatment of Those Who Leave Islam:

Apostate Preacher Murdere in His Own Home...
Criminal Past Invented to Punish Christian Convert...
Convert Released from Solitary Confinement After 105 Days...
Five Christian Converts 'Disappear' in Iranian Prison System...
Atheist Sentenced to Three Years for Denying God's Existence...
Muslims Offer Prayers as They Cut Man's Throat for Embracing Christianity...
Death Sentence Fatwa Placed on Head of 'Apostate' Rapper...
Church Pastor Abducted for Baptizing Muslim Girl...
Apostates Jailed, Families Mocked...
Christian Converts Describe Torture by Muslim Fundamentalists...
Ex-Imam and Wife Nearly Beaten to Death for Converting to Christianity
Girl Severely Beaten, Families Threatened for Showing Interest in Jesus
Iran: No College for Ex-Muslims
Two Converts to Christianity Stabbed in Norway
Uganda Girl Learning to Walk after Brutal Torture for Leaving Islam
Egyptian Cleric Says to Behead Apostates
Convert Beheaded for Leaving Islam
Iran Jails Christian Woman for Two Years over Leaving Islam
Muslim Father Arrested to Lure Christian Sons Back to Fate
Zanzibar Christian Suffers in Jail after Incarceration and Torture for Apostasy
Christian Woman Faints While Being Publicly Flogged for Leaving Islam
Secularist Endures 'Unbearable' Torture, Prepares for Execution
Apostate Pastor Blinded with Acid in Uganda
Children Murdered to Punish Ex-Muslim for Embracing Christianity
Christian Convert Sentenced to 6 Years in Prison following Baptism
Iran Orders Ex-Muslim Pastors to Serve Prison Sentences
Kenyan Convert Stripped and Beaten with Iron Rods at Kenyan Church
Christian Convert Tied Up and Stomped On
Five Afghan Christian Converts Martyred...
Converts from Islam Detained and Beaten
Christian Convert Survives Brutal Stabbing in "Moderate" Morocco
Converts to Christianity Ordered to 'Repent' or Face 'Social Boycott'
Schoolteacher Gunned Down After Converting to Ahmadi Faith
Man Beheaded for Leaving Islam and Embracing Christianity...
Christian Girl Tortured and Killed for Leaving Islam...
Christian Convert Flees after Severe Beating by Family...
Swedish Imam Calls on Muslims to Kill Converts...
25 Ex-Muslims Arrested in Iran...
Morocco Gives Ex-Muslim 15 Years in Jail for 'Proselytizing'...
14-Year-Old 'Apostate' Girl Unable to Walk after Torture...
Court Orders Apostate to 'Repent His Christian Faith' or Die...
Christian Released after 9 Months in prison for Leaving Islam
New Ground Zero Imam Says Apostates Should be Jailed...
Muslim Murdered for Intention to Convert to Hinduism...
Palestinian Couple Declared Apostates, Forcibly Divorced...
Time Running Out for Apostate Pastor Facing Execution...
Muslim-American Leaders Challenged to Reject Killing Apostates
Palestinian Authority Labels Ahmadis 'Apostates'...
Suicide Bombers Close in on 'Apostate' Pakistan Ahmadi Community...
'Blessings' Promised to Those who Kill Ahmadiya 'Apostates'
'Apostate' Ahmadiyahs Brutally Murdered by 'Allah Akbar' Mob
Man in Britain Beaten with Plank for Leaving Islam...
Christian Couple Stabbed in Home for Leaving Islam...
Iranian Christian Beaten to Death by Relative
21-Year-Old Christian Executed for Leaving Islam...
Afghan Released after 9 Months in prison for Leaving Islam...
Christian Father of Ten Executed in Front of Home
Christian Faces Death Penalty for Leaving Islam...
Father of 6 Jailed and Beaten for Leaving Islam...
Tortured Aid Worker Faces Execution for Becoming Christian...
63-Year-Old Convert & Son Beaten for Leaving Islam...
Imprisoned Pastor Faces Death Penalty for Leaving Islam...
Ethiopian Stabbed for Leaving Islam...
Son Confesses to Killing Father for Leaving Islam...
17-Year-Old Girl Beaten by Family, in Shackles for Leaving Islam...
15-Year-Old Girl Attacked with Acid for Leaving Islam...
Asylum Seekers in Norway Scald Christian Convert with Boiling Water...
Christian Convert Flees Torture in Bangladesh...
Christian Convert Beaten to Death...
False Cattle Theft Charge Used to Stop Christian Convert...
Egyptian Muslims Attempt to Behead Christian Convert...
Afghanistan Detains 20 Christian Converts amid Call for Death...
Torture Fears for Humanitarian Worker Charged with Apostasy...
Schoolchildren Forced to Watch Execution of Christian Convert...
Pastor to Hang for Apostasy...
Islamic Scholars Mull Putting Ex-Muslims to Death...
Pastors Warned to Return to Islam or Risk Murder...
Australian Islamists Vow to Murder Ex-Muslims...
Cleric: Ex-Muslims Should be Reasoned With - Then Killed...
Egypt Jails Christian Convert Accused of Distributing Bibles...
Elderly Woman Burned to Death for Converting Family from Islam...
Christian Convert Executed by Somali Islamists...
Malaysia: Whipping, Prison and Fines for Anyone Trying to Convert Muslims...
Bangladeshi Christian Convert Threatened with Death...
Ethiopian Christian Convert Languishes in Jail over Bibles...
Bibles Burned, Christian Converts Threatened with Same Fate...
Family Ordered to 'Sacrifice' Christian Convert Son...
Judge Tells Christian Convert of His Desire to Kill Her...
Police Round Up Christian Converts in Iran...
Comoros Imam who Converts to Christianity is Forced into Hiding
Elderly Christian Converts Driven from Home...
Police Rape and Torture Christian Convert - Promise to Release Her if She Will Return to Islam...
Christian Converts Hunted Down and Beaten in Comoros...
Son of Murdered Christian Convert Also Faces Death...
Iran's Parliament Votes to Kill Christian Converts...
Christian Convert Shot to Death by Devout Muslims...
Mob Pelts Christian Converts with Rocks...
Innocent Man Slain After Cleric Declares Ahmadis to be Wajibul Qatl...
'Moderate' Malaysia Sends Christian Converts to Re-Education Camps...
Jordan Annuls Marriage of Christian Convert...
Christian Convert & Wife Beaten, Flee to Save Children...
New Zealand Christian Convert Goes Underground to Stay Alive...
Christian Convert Needs Police Protection - in the UK!...
Genital-Shocking Egyptian Police Detain Christian Convert...
Ethiopian Islamists Stab Christian Convert's Son...
Christian Convert (Father of 4) Murdered by Islamists...
Christian Convert Murdered by Islamic Radicals...
16-Year-Old Christian Convert has Muslim Man Forced on Her...
Imam Calls for His Own Son's Murder for Leaving Islam...
Somali Christian Shot to Death for Leaving Islam...
Father of Two Shot to Death for Leaving Islam...
Palestinian Terrorists Butcher and Cut Christian Man into Four Pieces...
Iran Holds Women in Notorious Prison for Leaving Islam...
Christian Woman Divorced and Beaten for Leaving Islam...
Libya Urged to Stop Torturing Christians for Leaving Islam...
Graphic Video Posted of Man Beheaded for Leaving Islam...
Christian Beheaded for Leaving Islam...
Saudi Cuts Out Daughter's Tongue and Burn Her Alive for Leaving Islam...
Prominent Canada Threatens to Kill Daughter for Leaving Islam...
Yemen Arrests Nine for Leaving Islam...
Maldives Cleric Vows to Kill Anyone Leaving Islam...
Four Christians Sent to Jail for Leaving Islam...
Elderly Woman Burned to Death for Leaving Islam...
Malaysia Officially Bars Muslims from Leaving Islam...
Young Christian Murdered after Leaving Islam...
Apostate Woman's Fingernails Torn Out by Family...
Apostate Spat on in the UK, Threatened with Death...
Poll: 4 in 5 Pakistanis Support Stoning Adulterers, Apostates...
Iraqi Mujahideen Post Video of 'Apostate' Beheading...
Harvard Chaplain Defends Killing Apostates...
Executed Somali Christian was Accused of Apostasy...
Man Under House Arrest over Son's Apostasy...
(Canada) Mother Threatens to Kill Apostate Son...
Apostasy: Iran to Enforce Death Penalty Worldwide?...
Apostates Suffer Religious Persecution in Britain...
UK Clerics Refuse to Denounce Killing Apostates...
Somali Christian Casually Executed for Apostasy...
Dutch Muslims Assault Apostate...
Non-Muslims Horrified by Details of Apostate Family's Murder...
Apostate and Christian Father of 7 Shot Dead in Ethiopia...
Islamists Post 'Hit List' of Apostates...

When And Muslims brag that theirs is the "fastest growing" religion... Now you know why!

TheReligionofPeace.com Home Page

© 2006-2012 TheReligionofPeace.com. All rights reserved.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seems a great many muslims do not see it the way Jafar tries to convince us it is!-Tyr


TheReligionofPeace.com
Guide to Understanding Islam

What does the
Religion of Peace
Teach About...

Apostasy

Question:
Does Islam proscribe the death penalty for Muslims who wish to embrace another religion?


Summary Answer:
Those who turn their back on Islam are to be executed. This is confirmed by the words and deeds of Muhammad. The only freedom of belief in Islam is the freedom to become Muslim.

The Qur'an:
Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."

Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Qur'an verses 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, and 9:66.

[aboutime]

Tyr. Thanks for posting that SHORT list.

It almost reminded me of the first few pages of the OBAMACARE bill that Nancy Pelosi so happily told us..."We'd know what's in it, after the bill is passed."

jafar should be really happy that you took the time to post that list. It is only outdone by the Democrat Talking Points Memo, Journal, and Obama List of Lies.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Tyr. Thanks for posting that SHORT list.

It almost reminded me of the first few pages of the OBAMACARE bill that Nancy Pelosi so happily told us..."We'd know what's in it, after the bill is passed."

jafar should be really happy that you took the time to post that list. It is only outdone by the Democrat Talking Points Memo, Journal, and Obama List of Lies.

Yep and that is not even the complete list! Jafar will most likely pretend to not see it. If he does , how is he going to refute it? Or the cited religious verses that disprove his version ? His --"out of context" baloney is just that a huge slice of BALONEY!-Tyr

[jimnyc]

Yep and that is not even the complete list! Jafar will most likely pretend to not see it. If he does , how is he going to refute it? Or the cited religious verses that disprove his version ? His --"out of context" baloney is just that a huge slice of BALONEY!-Tyr

I've posted lists such as that and many other things from that website, and have done so on many forums. Pretty much every Muslim I have come across has dismissed the SITE as a hate site. Very rarely have I see then actually debate the statistics and facts posted on the site. And there is a lot of things on that site referring to passages from the Quran & Hadith, and some direct quotes from prominent Muslims. They are always dismissed as not existing or bad translations. Every one of them.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I've posted lists such as that and many other things from that website, and have done so on many forums. Pretty much every Muslim I have come across has dismissed the SITE as a hate site. Very rarely have I see then actually debate the statistics and facts posted on the site. And there is a lot of things on that site referring to passages from the Quran & Hadith, and some direct quotes from prominent Muslims. They are always dismissed as not existing or bad translations. Every one of them.

Well, it is a hate site to them. For they hate truth. Does not matter how many times or ways that they reject the TRUTH we still must hit 'em with TRUTH every chance we get my friend. -:beer:-Tyr

[aboutime]

Yep and that is not even the complete list! Jafar will most likely pretend to not see it. If he does , how is he going to refute it? Or the cited religious verses that disprove his version ? His --"out of context" baloney is just that a huge slice of BALONEY!-Tyr


Pure PORK products will solve the problem. Baloney is usually beef. Pork, and all Pork products would probably serve very well as a huge NEGATIVE reminder to Terrorists, far and wide.

Operation PORK RIND should be considered in the Pentagon by the DOD.

[jafar00]

The Qur'an:
Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."

Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Qur'an verses 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, and 9:66.


You do realise that you are quoting verses aimed at a particular group of people that only existed at a particular time and that they talk of a specific chain of events.

Go and learn some Arab history instead of rotting your brain at "religionofpeace" websites.

[jimnyc]

You do realise that you are quoting verses aimed at a particular group of people that only existed at a particular time and that they talk of a specific chain of events.

Go and learn some Arab history instead of rotting your brain at "religionofpeace" websites.

Every Muslim I have discussed this subject with easily dismiss that site, probably because they are immediately turned off by the images they are met with throughout the site. They are generally accurate photos of Muslims, so don't blame the site. The cartoons, yup, they're guilty. But I still haven't found any of the complaining Muslims proving their lists wrong though. Like I always say, take the rhetoric and hate out of it - and you have a HUGE amount of dead people, thousands, hundreds of thousands, and the person behind each death is a Muslim.

But dismiss the site, this way the "facts" disappear too.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You do realise that you are quoting verses aimed at a particular group of people that only existed at a particular time and that they talk of a specific chain of events.

Go and learn some Arab history instead of rotting your brain at "religionofpeace" websites.

This is crap that you say. Are you daring to say that those verses from your Holy book are only for muslims of the distant past? That your Holy book speaks differently now? Show me the revisions, show me .. Show me a New Testament in Islam.. You can not ..-Tyr

[aboutime]

You do realise that you are quoting verses aimed at a particular group of people that only existed at a particular time and that they talk of a specific chain of events.

Go and learn some Arab history instead of rotting your brain at "religionofpeace" websites.


You too should realize that you are also doing the very same thing, while attempting to convince people you do not know to learn Arab History in order to disguise how your brain has been rotting by denial about that so-called Religion of Peace.
The Muslim sailors I have know throughout my life on Active Duty, always showed a higher respect for others, like myself which gained their respect from me.
But today. They would probably frown upon the use of Muslim principles, and the bastardization of that Holy Book which has been distorted, twisted, and the context Eroded by those who claim Peace as their goal...while Whispering that killing those who disagree is the work of a Godly prophet. Here in America. We have a name for that. And Obama practices it very well. It's called DISHONESTY, or just plain LIES.

[jimnyc]

This is crap that you say. Are you daring to say that those verses from your Holy book are only for muslims of the distant past? That your Holy book speaks differently now? Show me the revisions, show me .. Show me a New Testament in Islam.. You can not ..-Tyr

And yet Muslims from today beat women and kill people based on verses from that "holy book". Some things will only be speaking for people at that time while other things will stand true today. Must be nice to pick and choose. Whatever makes Muslims look bad doesn't count, only the good things! LOL

[jafar00]

This is crap that you say. Are you daring to say that those verses from your Holy book are only for muslims of the distant past? That your Holy book speaks differently now? Show me the revisions, show me .. Show me a New Testament in Islam.. You can not ..-Tyr

Yes. Some verses are aimed at specific periods and specific people. Any Muslim knows this and every anti Islam blog out there uses such verses to attack Islam but just end up making themselves look stupid.


And yet Muslims from today beat women and kill people based on verses from that "holy book". Some things will only be speaking for people at that time while other things will stand true today. Must be nice to pick and choose. Whatever makes Muslims look bad doesn't count, only the good things! LOL

So? Men in the USA also beat women and kill people. Bad people are just bad and they are in all societies unfortunately.

[jimnyc]

So? Men in the USA also beat women and kill people. Bad people are just bad and they are in all societies unfortunately.

You are correct. But if a man is caught he is almost always brought forth to answer for his crimes. We don't make excuses for those committing crimes. We don't proclaim them no longer Americans and therefore Americans can do no wrong.

This isn't the same in many Islamic areas. Hell, in some areas a woman can get raped and still be punished further. In many, many, far too many places, it is condoned for a man to beat a woman. It's even taught on how to do it, as if you do it in a certain manner, or lightly, that somehow makes it OK.

So yes, these assaults and worse do happen everywhere, even in America. But you won't find ANY areas in America where it is condoned, or ANY laws hindering the prosecution of the guilty man, or making things worse for the woman involved.

There are still Islamic shithole areas where a woman can't prosecute or do much, without a certain amount of witnesses to the crime she is alleging has taken place. And without them, she can be punished further for making said accusation. Do you realize just how fucking sick that is? And I don't care if it's "just in certain areas" - as these areas add up after awhile. And and Islamic society shouldn't turn a blind eye to this either, or condone it, or ignore it because it's not in their area.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Yes. Some verses are aimed at specific periods and specific people. Any Muslim knows this and every anti Islam blog out there uses such verses to attack Islam but just end up making themselves look stupid.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, we know only muslims can pick and choose and whatever they pick and choose at any given time is correct! We infidels stupidly believe that the Koran is declared to be the direct words of Allah. When you guys now proclaim that you can just pick and choose which word to obey. At least you people agree that's a defending lie to offer non-believers.
I call bullshit on that phoney offering from you!-Tyr

[aboutime]

Yes. Some verses are aimed at specific periods and specific people. Any Muslim knows this and every anti Islam blog out there uses such verses to attack Islam but just end up making themselves look stupid.



So? Men in the USA also beat women and kill people. Bad people are just bad and they are in all societies unfortunately.


jafar. Difference is. Here in the USA. Any man who kills his daughter because she talked to, walked with, danced with, kissed, or made love to...that wasn't the same religion as the Father. DOES NOT GET OFF because it is considered an INSULT to him...as it appears to be condoned in Muslim nations around the world.
Anyone who kills another human, other than during a war where it is survival vs. survival. Is guilty of Murder. And if a Religion of so-called Peace allows, condones, or supports such murderous acts. THEY ARE ALSO GUILTY OF MURDER.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

jafar. Difference is. Here in the USA. Any man who kills his daughter because she talked to, walked with, danced with, kissed, or made love to...that wasn't the same religion as the Father. DOES NOT GET OFF because it is considered an INSULT to him...as it appears to be condoned in Muslim nations around the world.
Anyone who kills another human, other than during a war where it is survival vs. survival. Is guilty of Murder. And if a Religion of so-called Peace allows, condones, or supports such murderous acts. THEY ARE ALSO GUILTY OF MURDER.

Jafar knows the difference he just chooses to defend Islam no matter the facts. Islam is above everything in the entire Universe, facts included my friend. That is a big part of its brainwashing insanity..-Tyr

[aboutime]

Jafar knows the difference he just chooses to defend Islam no matter the facts. Islam is above everything in the entire Universe, facts included my friend. That is a big part of its brainwashing insanity..-Tyr


Tyr. That seemed to be the one point that most want to ignore, and even deny as being relevant here.

Brainwashing. What else could it be for those who would murder their own children, or family members merely as a matter of sick pride for reasoning?

And no matter how much jafar, or any other Muslim denies that it is taking place to 'SAVE FACE'. Murder is still Murder by SANE human beings who do not pretend to defend something they call a Peace Loving Religion.

Causing Death to appease a Mysterious prophet, much like those who accuse Christians of worshiping an invisible man. Is still murder, and against the Laws of Reasonable Human beings.

[jafar00]

Tyr. That seemed to be the one point that most want to ignore, and even deny as being relevant here.

Brainwashing. What else could it be for those who would murder their own children, or family members merely as a matter of sick pride for reasoning?

And no matter how much jafar, or any other Muslim denies that it is taking place to 'SAVE FACE'. Murder is still Murder by SANE human beings who do not pretend to defend something they call a Peace Loving Religion.

Causing Death to appease a Mysterious prophet, much like those who accuse Christians of worshiping an invisible man. Is still murder, and against the Laws of Reasonable Human beings.

Yes I agree. Murder is Murder and according to Islam, murder gets you the death penalty more often than not. Unfortunately you seem to be mixing up pre-Islamic tribal customs (such as the honour killing you alluded to) and what Islam actually teaches. I wholeheartedly condemn those that follow such traditions and do not pursue and prosecute the murderers for their crimes because of traditions that go 100% against Islam.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Yes I agree. Murder is Murder and according to Islam, murder gets you the death penalty more often than not. Unfortunately you seem to be mixing up pre-Islamic tribal customs (such as the honour killing you alluded to) and what Islam actually teaches. I wholeheartedly condemn those that follow such traditions and do not pursue and prosecute the murderers for their crimes because of traditions that go 100% against Islam.

^^^^ You seem to be disavowing Sharia law. If what those people do are against Islam how is that a blind eye is turned by the authorities most of the time especially in stoning cases?-Tyr

[jafar00]

^^^^ You seem to be disavowing Sharia law. If what those people do are against Islam how is that a blind eye is turned by the authorities most of the time especially in stoning cases?-Tyr

Are you an expert on Sharia now then?

Can you show me the relevant laws dealing with "honour" killing?