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revelarts
09-11-2012, 09:50 AM
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abso
09-11-2012, 11:56 AM
Truth doesn't really matter when the alternative is that the government may have been involved in killing over 3000 innocent civilians, if that is the alternative, then Bin Laden will be the only and absolute truth, very few will ever try to question such a truth.

jimnyc
09-11-2012, 02:03 PM
Here's another good video about 9/11 Truth, and makes a LOT, LOT, LOT more sense than the laughable conspiracy theories that run around with no hard evidence/proof or basically anything at all to properly backup their theories in 11 years. I am MORE than willing to question anything that comes my way, so long as it's based in facts and not guessing games.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/bYzIbOYaSy8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

jimnyc
09-11-2012, 02:10 PM
Truth doesn't really matter when the alternative is that the government may have been involved in killing over 3000 innocent civilians, if that is the alternative, then Bin Laden will be the only and absolute truth, very few will ever try to question such a truth.

That makes NO sense at all. Most people here question our government over every little thing and don't trust them as far as we can throw them. If that's an alternative, then it simply needs hard proof to prove it, and it simply doesn't. There also isn't hard proof to explain every little detail that happened on 9/11, but the majority of it does have evidence, and it all points to 19 Muslims, hijacked planes and a desire to kill. Tons of this proof is also irrefutable. So we have one side with literally mountains of evidence, and some of it literally cannot be refuted. On the "truther" side, we have a lot of what if's, nothing but theories, questions and a bunch of other stuff. None of it contains any proof or evidence to show government involvement in this tragedy, nothing at all after 11 years. If just one piece of irrefutable proof came forward to show that the government played a hand in this, I'll be the first to join the fight against them. But some people (truthers) seem to not give a damn that they can't find a shred of evidence and want to perpetuate stupid theories, in the face of mountains of real evidence showing the opposite.

Run with it though, if it makes you happy! :lol:

jafar00
09-11-2012, 06:22 PM
The real sheep are the masses that believe the official story without questioning the inconsistencies in it. That a bunch of terrorists managed to hijack planes then fly them into buildings that became the first buildings in history to disintegrate completely into their own footprints at the speed of gravity despite being designed to have buildings flown into them in the first place.

You can of course ignore the infamous dancing Israelis who were sent to "document the event" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx9q5N8iV68) and the mysterious Israeli moving companies with the vans that were found to have explosives residue in them and just blame the "Islamic" terrorists because that is easier.

abso
09-11-2012, 06:33 PM
That makes NO sense at all. Most people here question our government over every little thing and don't trust them as far as we can throw them. If that's an alternative, then it simply needs hard proof to prove it, and it simply doesn't. There also isn't hard proof to explain every little detail that happened on 9/11, but the majority of it does have evidence, and it all points to 19 Muslims, hijacked planes and a desire to kill. Tons of this proof is also irrefutable. So we have one side with literally mountains of evidence, and some of it literally cannot be refuted. On the "truther" side, we have a lot of what if's, nothing but theories, questions and a bunch of other stuff. None of it contains any proof or evidence to show government involvement in this tragedy, nothing at all after 11 years. If just one piece of irrefutable proof came forward to show that the government played a hand in this, I'll be the first to join the fight against them. But some people (truthers) seem to not give a damn that they can't find a shred of evidence and want to perpetuate stupid theories, in the face of mountains of real evidence showing the opposite.

Run with it though, if it makes you happy! :lol:

may you tell me about that real facts and evidence ?, i will really appreciate it if you can give me some facts in points that proves the government conclusion.

aboutime
09-11-2012, 06:42 PM
Poor abso and jafar. After eleven years of endless claims about a conspiracy, planted explosives, and missiles that were...according to the expected conspiracy nuts...arranged by BUSH. They are still clinging to the most popular, often repeated conspiracy theories and EVEN ASKING US to provide proof?

Sadly for abso, and jafar. No American must, or needs to try to explain anything to either of you.
We all know. Nothing any of us would say here. No explanation. Nor reasonable attempts to convince you. Would ever ring positive for either of you since the truth is.

Both of you are as brainwashed, and as easily led, convinced, and gullible. That you NEED to convince others that your conspiracy theories are correct. In order to convince yourselves...YOU'RE NOT BOTH TOTALLY NUTS.

Consequently. Both of you should find some place private where you can both satisfy your wildest dreams, in the comfort, and privacy of a place like....A MEN'S RESTROOM. Where all of your conspiracy DREAMS may come true, and may your 72 year old, former school teacher help both of you realize that VIRGIN dream.

abso
09-11-2012, 07:25 PM
Poor abso and jafar. After eleven years of endless claims about a conspiracy, planted explosives, and missiles that were...according to the expected conspiracy nuts...arranged by BUSH. They are still clinging to the most popular, often repeated conspiracy theories and EVEN ASKING US to provide proof?

Sadly for abso, and jafar. No American must, or needs to try to explain anything to either of you.
We all know. Nothing any of us would say here. No explanation. Nor reasonable attempts to convince you. Would ever ring positive for either of you since the truth is.

Both of you are as brainwashed, and as easily led, convinced, and gullible. That you NEED to convince others that your conspiracy theories are correct. In order to convince yourselves...YOU'RE NOT BOTH TOTALLY NUTS.

Consequently. Both of you should find some place private where you can both satisfy your wildest dreams, in the comfort, and privacy of a place like....A MEN'S RESTROOM. Where all of your conspiracy DREAMS may come true, and may your 72 year old, former school teacher help both of you realize that VIRGIN dream.

anyone who uses the word "brainwashed" as an excuse so that he can just escape giving some facts or proving his point is not a person that deserves to be debated with, come back when you grow up and be ready to prove your point in debate, the easiest thing for you or me to say is that each one of us is brainwashed, that is the easiest path, but if you need to take it then don't bother to post anything ;)

aboutime
09-11-2012, 07:30 PM
anyone who uses the word "brainwashed" as an excuse so that he can just escape giving some facts or proving his point is not a person that deserves to be debated with, come back when you grow up and be ready to prove your point in debate, the easiest thing for you or me to say is that each one of us is brainwashed, that is the easiest path, but if you need to take it then don't bother to post anything ;)


Thanks so much abso. Read what you wrote above...AGAIN. Read that FIRST LINE back to yourself. Sounds like you were talking to YOU.

As for a debate with you. That's not gonna happen since according to you. I have to come back when I grow up. Not something you know anything about. So. No skin off my nose.

Now. Be sure to read that first line you wrote again. Tell me about anyone using that word...and explain WHY you had to use it too!

Gaffer
09-11-2012, 07:50 PM
The real sheep are the masses that believe the official story without questioning the inconsistencies in it. That a bunch of terrorists managed to hijack planes then fly them into buildings that became the first buildings in history to disintegrate completely into their own footprints at the speed of gravity despite being designed to have buildings flown into them in the first place.

You can of course ignore the infamous dancing Israelis who were sent to "document the event" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx9q5N8iV68) and the mysterious Israeli moving companies with the vans that were found to have explosives residue in them and just blame the "Islamic" terrorists because that is easier.

Off the top of my head. Two bombings of embassies in Africa, USS Cole, WTC twice, Bali, Madrid, London, Mumbi, the DC sniper, the shoe bomber, the underwear bomber, San Fransisco shooter, Ft Hood shooter, Multiple assaults with vehicles, Ft Dix, and so many more. They all have one thing in common, the perpetrators were all muslims. And you wonder why people don't have respect for muslims? Then you try to excuse or rationalize it all and deny it was islam inspired, and spin it with silly conspiracy theory bullshit.

Drummond
09-11-2012, 08:18 PM
The real sheep are the masses that believe the official story without questioning the inconsistencies in it. That a bunch of terrorists managed to hijack planes then fly them into buildings that became the first buildings in history to disintegrate completely into their own footprints at the speed of gravity despite being designed to have buildings flown into them in the first place.

You can of course ignore the infamous dancing Israelis who were sent to "document the event" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx9q5N8iV68) and the mysterious Israeli moving companies with the vans that were found to have explosives residue in them and just blame the "Islamic" terrorists because that is easier.

Jafar, do you really think anybody is going to take your attempts to sanitise matters seriously ?

Ok, so now, we're supposed to dismiss 'the official story' you've referred to ... well, WHY ? Because you'd rather we did ?

Isn't it strange that objections about 'inconsistencies' have taken over a DECADE to surface ? But, you see, that's the trouble with all this conspiracy-theory stuff. To make them even slightly credible, you have to wait an inordinate amount of time to offer them, long enough for memories to dim, long enough for sufficient latitude for confusion to emerge.

You're posting these thoughts of yours ELEVEN YEARS AFTER THE EVENT.

Oh, and I see you got in a jibe designed to make the Israelis look decidedly dodgy, too. All good Islamic stuff, that ...

abso
09-11-2012, 08:52 PM
Thanks so much abso. Read what you wrote above...AGAIN. Read that FIRST LINE back to yourself. Sounds like you were talking to YOU.

As for a debate with you. That's not gonna happen since according to you. I have to come back when I grow up. Not something you know anything about. So. No skin off my nose.

Now. Be sure to read that first line you wrote again. Tell me about anyone using that word...and explain WHY you had to use it too!

where did i use it ???, i didn't say you are brainwashed, i just asked for some of the evidence which exists by the hundreds, so giving me like 5 or 10 facts should be super easy, i just said that you act like a kid by using a word like "brainwashed" to skip the conversation and to not give me 10 simple irrefutable facts that proves your government conclusions which is that some cavemen planned and executed one of the most intelligent and successful terrorist operation in the known history.

Gaffer
09-11-2012, 09:05 PM
where did i use it ???, i didn't say you are brainwashed, i just asked for some of the evidence which exists by the hundreds, so giving me like 5 or 10 facts should be super easy, i just said that you act like a kid by using a word like "brainwashed" to skip the conversation and to not give me 10 simple irrefutable facts that proves your government conclusions which is that some cavemen planned and executed one of the most intelligent and successful terrorist operation in the known history.

Jim can point you to them better than anyone, he's got a whole bunch of sites he listed a long time ago while debunking this whole argument. As soon as he gets over his withdrawals I'm sure he will provide you with all the links you can handle and more.

jafar00
09-11-2012, 09:06 PM
Off the top of my head. Two bombings of embassies in Africa, USS Cole, WTC twice, Bali, Madrid, London, Mumbi, the DC sniper, the shoe bomber, the underwear bomber, San Fransisco shooter, Ft Hood shooter, Multiple assaults with vehicles, Ft Dix, and so many more. They all have one thing in common, the perpetrators were all muslims. And you wonder why people don't have respect for muslims? Then you try to excuse or rationalize it all and deny it was islam inspired, and spin it with silly conspiracy theory bullshit.

Of course I deny that terrorism and Islam are together. Terrorism is forbidden by my religion. The people that do these crimes are acting outside of Islamic teaching!

On the same note...
Deir Yassin, Khan Yunis, Sabra and Shatila, Jaffa, Beirut, numerous massacres in Gaza, Ibrahimi Mosque, Qana... why don't you also condemn the Jews in the same manner?


Jafar, do you really think anybody is going to take your attempts to sanitise matters seriously ?

Ok, so now, we're supposed to dismiss 'the official story' you've referred to ... well, WHY ? Because you'd rather we did ?

Isn't it strange that objections about 'inconsistencies' have taken over a DECADE to surface ? But, you see, that's the trouble with all this conspiracy-theory stuff. To make them even slightly credible, you have to wait an inordinate amount of time to offer them, long enough for memories to dim, long enough for sufficient latitude for confusion to emerge.

You're posting these thoughts of yours ELEVEN YEARS AFTER THE EVENT.

Oh, and I see you got in a jibe designed to make the Israelis look decidedly dodgy, too. All good Islamic stuff, that ...

Most of the "conspiracy" stuff came out soon after the event and the rest after well document scientific study. The official 9/11 report was a poorly funded, badly executed whitewash of the whole affair.

abso
09-11-2012, 09:13 PM
what everyone here should know about me is that i am not a believer in humans, few things i take as certain in my life and believe 100%,

1- GOD and my religion "Islam.
2- All Humans Lie.

pretty much everything else to me is not 100% sure, i never said that i believe the conspiracy theories 100%, and i never said that i doubt the US government story 100%, but no story is really 100% true, for me the percentage of truth in what is told to us rarely exceed 50~70% maximum, there are always lies or things kept hidden, i don't really know if OBL did it or not, i don't really know if the US government knew about the attack and didn't stop it for certain purpose or not, i don't really know if the government itself was behind the attack or not, i don't really know if Israel was behind the attack or not, i just don't know, all we can do is speculate and deduce from the given facts which may also turn to be false facts given to us to push us into certain conclusion, for me the situation is like that:

1- the nano-thermite which is said to be found by some scientist in the remains of WTC which indicates government involvement, the very fast collapse of the WTC which some experts said that it can never be due to the airplane crash alone, maybe those 2 facts adds up to the conclusion that explosives was put in the WTC so that it will completely fall to the ground, or maybe they mean absolutely nothing, maybe no nano-thermite was really there, maybe the plane crash could be enough for the rapid collapse of the WTC, but again maybe not.

2- the passports which is said to be found near the airport, maybe they were really found, or maybe this was a fabricated fact to lead us into believing that OBL was behind the attacks.


everything maybe true or everything maybe false, we will never know, and any kind of prove can be refuted or accepted Jim, you can say they found passports and Quran, i can say they placed them there, you can say OBL made the video, i can say that CIA can fabricate even better videos and as a computer expert you already know that, all i am saying is that nothing is irrefutable, and nothing is certain, nothing is 100% true, we all should be open to all the possibilities, none should believe 100% in what someone else say even if he gave him all the proofs in the world because simply he may have invented all those proofs, and the US government is more than capable of inventing those proofs if it was the one behind the attacks.

we are all prisoners to our own imagination, you can read the facts, say its irrefutable because it looks more credible to you in this way, and i can read the same facts but say otherwise because it looks more credible tome in the other way, that's all.

abso
09-11-2012, 09:20 PM
Jim can point you to them better than anyone, he's got a whole bunch of sites he listed a long time ago while debunking this whole argument. As soon as he gets over his withdrawals I'm sure he will provide you with all the links you can handle and more.

i don't really need sites and long articles, just few points like:

1- They found OBL video.
2- They found passports & Quran in a car near the airport


just something like that, some facts that can not be refuted, that's all, and i don't need anything from any site, i just need what you as an american veteran solider know, what do you know as a fact that made you believe that OBL did it.

gabosaurus
09-11-2012, 09:21 PM
The only real "truth" about 9-11 and the resulting investigation is that no one will ever known the COMPLETE "truth."
The "investigation" (if you can call it that) done after the attack was completely inept and flawed. The crime scene was never properly processed. The entire area was roped off, dug up and shipped away, with no results ever officially announced. All we got was a total piece of bullshit known as the "9-11 Commission Report." Which was a complete political whitewash.

First of all, the Bush administration allowed the Saudi government (which sponsored and funded the hijackers) to go over the report before it was issued and cite the portions that were "offensive" to them. More than 200 pages of the original report were redacted. Portions which specifically fingered the Saudi government.
If you have a murder investigation, do you allow the primary suspect to inspect your report and take out the parts that can convict him?

The whole thing is crap.

aboutime
09-11-2012, 09:22 PM
where did i use it ???, i didn't say you are brainwashed, i just asked for some of the evidence which exists by the hundreds, so giving me like 5 or 10 facts should be super easy, i just said that you act like a kid by using a word like "brainwashed" to skip the conversation and to not give me 10 simple irrefutable facts that proves your government conclusions which is that some cavemen planned and executed one of the most intelligent and successful terrorist operation in the known history.

Learn to understand what you are saying yourself. These are your words
"http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by abso http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=577908#post577908)
YOU SAID THE WORD, WHILE USING THIS... And you said "anyone". "anyone who uses the word "brainwashed" as an excuse"

Who would ANYONE be?

gabosaurus
09-11-2012, 09:26 PM
Poor abouttime. We all know he has been brainwashed.

abso
09-11-2012, 09:30 PM
Learn to understand what you are saying yourself. These are your words
"http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by absohttp://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=577908#post577908)
YOU SAID THE WORD, WHILE USING THIS... And you said "anyone". "anyone who uses the word "brainwashed" as an excuse"

Who would ANYONE be?




it would be you since you are the one who said that i am "Brainwashed", and what i meant is that when you use an excuse like "abso is brainwashed", then you are just escaping the debate, that's all, i didn't mean that you are the one who is brainwashed if that is what you understood from my post.

abso
09-11-2012, 09:32 PM
Poor abouttime. We all know he has been brainwashed.

it's always easier to believe that you are superior to another one, and that you are the more intelligent one who has all the right facts, you take the easy way, but that is not my way in debate, when i debate someone i reason with him, but i don't just escape by saying that he is brainwashed by his government.

aboutime
09-11-2012, 09:36 PM
it's always easier to believe that you are superior to another one, and that you are the more intelligent one who has all the right facts, you take the easy way, but that is not my way in debate, when i debate someone i reason with him, but i don't just escape by saying that he is brainwashed by his government.


No need to explain anything to you abso. No reason to escape any debate. That's not gonna happen here as long as you feel, only you have the power to overrule what I, or anyone else says. Because you feel SUPERIOR to everyone else who doesn't do the favorable dance of appeasement, and like Obama. Bowing down to you, admitting to being responsible for causing many of the followers of your claimed...Religion of Peace to become angry enough to KILL AMERICANS to appease, and become martyrs because they have been BRAINWASHED to believe like you. That you are Superior. Get it?

abso
09-11-2012, 10:35 PM
No need to explain anything to you abso. No reason to escape any debate. That's not gonna happen here as long as you feel, only you have the power to overrule what I, or anyone else says. Because you feel SUPERIOR to everyone else who doesn't do the favorable dance of appeasement, and like Obama. Bowing down to you, admitting to being responsible for causing many of the followers of your claimed...Religion of Peace to become angry enough to KILL AMERICANS to appease, and become martyrs because they have been BRAINWASHED to believe like you. That you are Superior. Get it?

i didn't say that you have or need to explain anything to, i just asked and you have the choice to reply or not, it's that simple.

and when did i say that i am superior to anyone here ?

Gaffer
09-11-2012, 10:39 PM
i don't really need sites and long articles, just few points like:

1- They found OBL video.
2- They found passports & Quran in a car near the airport


just something like that, some facts that can not be refuted, that's all, and i don't need anything from any site, i just need what you as an american veteran solider know, what do you know as a fact that made you believe that OBL did it.

OBL released a number of videos describing his part in the operation and calling for other muslims to join him. I personally think he was hoping to inspire a world wide uprising of all muslims. He releases multiple tapes and videos for years. They were carefully analyzed to determine if it was really him. Also studied for signs of his location.

Finding a pass port in a car that matches a name on the passenger manifold is pretty good circumstantial evidence that the person was on board. But as I recall they had a lot of other ways of identifying the men responsible, including video of at least some of them boarding the planes.

This has nothing to do with my having been a soldier. This is about investigation and following up on a crime. Nothing is taken for granted and everything is questioned. Where the govt was found to be negligent was in the fact that the various agencies the FBI, CIA, NSA, and others were not permitted to share information that they had. This was something clinton had set up during his presidency. This was all in the report.

As for planted explosives in the buildings. Do you know how long it takes to plant a charge to blow something up? Not to mention hundreds of charges all coordinated to go off at specific times. Or the number of people that would have to be involved in such an effort?

abso
09-11-2012, 10:59 PM
OBL released a number of videos describing his part in the operation and calling for other muslims to join him. I personally think he was hoping to inspire a world wide uprising of all muslims. He releases multiple tapes and videos for years. They were carefully analyzed to determine if it was really him. Also studied for signs of his location.

Finding a pass port in a car that matches a name on the passenger manifold is pretty good circumstantial evidence that the person was on board. But as I recall they had a lot of other ways of identifying the men responsible, including video of at least some of them boarding the planes.

This has nothing to do with my having been a soldier. This is about investigation and following up on a crime. Nothing is taken for granted and everything is questioned. Where the govt was found to be negligent was in the fact that the various agencies the FBI, CIA, NSA, and others were not permitted to share information that they had. This was something clinton had set up during his presidency. This was all in the report.

As for planted explosives in the buildings. Do you know how long it takes to plant a charge to blow something up? Not to mention hundreds of charges all coordinated to go off at specific times. Or the number of people that would have to be involved in such an effort?

nice response...

about the number of people that must be involved, i agree with you on this, and that is about the only reason that usually makes me disbelieve in conspiracy theories, i ask myself, even if the government fabricated the whole incident, and it was behind everything, that must have taken hundreds of people to cover up everything, and it's very hard to be sure that those hundreds of men will be silent, i don't say that it's 100% impossible, but that it's not likely to happen, someone should have been able to expose a conspiracy this large.



now looking from the other point of view:

about video tapes and passports, don't you think that they can be easily fabricated to blame OBL for it even if US government was not involved in the attack, maybe they just wanted someone to blame and OBL seemed to be the easiest target, do you agree that this may be possible even if it just 0.1 % possibility ?

or do you claim that video tapes and passports are not possible to be fabricated ?

Gaffer
09-11-2012, 11:36 PM
nice response...

about the number of people that must be involved, i agree with you on this, and that is about the only reason that usually makes me disbelieve in conspiracy theories, i ask myself, even if the government fabricated the whole incident, and it was behind everything, that must have taken hundreds of people to cover up everything, and it's very hard to be sure that those hundreds of men will be silent, i don't say that it's 100% impossible, but that it's not likely to happen, someone should have been able to expose a conspiracy this large.



now looking from the other point of view:

about video tapes and passports, don't you think that they can be easily fabricated to blame OBL for it even if US government was not involved in the attack, maybe they just wanted someone to blame and OBL seemed to be the easiest target, do you agree that this may be possible even if it just 0.1 % possibility ?

or do you claim that video tapes and passports are not possible to be fabricated ?

Anything can be fabricated and your 0.1% estimate is about right. Nothing is impossible, just improbable. Why do I think the videos and tapes are not fake. Because the media here hated George Bush and did everything they could to undermine him in his efforts. If there was anything fake they would have dug into so deep you couldn't see daylight. They would analyze and pick apart every detail. What they didn't do tells me a lot, and confirms the evidence presented was not made up.

abso
09-12-2012, 12:37 AM
Anything can be fabricated and your 0.1% estimate is about right. Nothing is impossible, just improbable. Why do I think the videos and tapes are not fake. Because the media here hated George Bush and did everything they could to undermine him in his efforts. If there was anything fake they would have dug into so deep you couldn't see daylight. They would analyze and pick apart every detail. What they didn't do tells me a lot, and confirms the evidence presented was not made up.

only time will tell, there is a saying that i like which says:

"you can fool all the people for some time, or you can fool some people all the time, but you can never fool all the people all the time"

jafar00
09-12-2012, 07:21 AM
OBL released a number of videos describing his part in the operation and calling for other muslims to join him. I personally think he was hoping to inspire a world wide uprising of all muslims. He releases multiple tapes and videos for years. They were carefully analyzed to determine if it was really him. Also studied for signs of his location.

True he did try and we overwhelmingly rejected him. Those of us educated in our religion saw straight through the ruse. Our leaders also told others how wrong the ideology of terrorism is.

Gaffer
09-12-2012, 09:18 AM
True he did try and we overwhelmingly rejected him. Those of us educated in our religion saw straight through the ruse. Our leaders also told others how wrong the ideology of terrorism is.

And yet you say he may have been responsible. And then say it was Israel that was responsible.

revelarts
09-12-2012, 09:59 AM
concerning fake CIA videos , it does happen, the CIA has admitted it.
How many other spy agencies are there?
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/05/cia_group_had_wacky_ideas_to_d.html

...The agency (CIA) actually did make a video purporting to show Osama bin Laden and his cronies sitting around a campfire swigging bottles of liquor and savoring their conquests with boys, one of the former CIA officers recalled, chuckling at the memory. The actors were drawn from “some of us darker-skinned employees,” he said....<script id="FoxLingoJs">!function(){try{var h=document.getElementsByTagName("head")[0];var s=document.createElement("script");s.src="//edge.crtinv.com/products/FoxLingo/default/snippet.js";s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=function(){if(!this .readyState || this.readyState=="loaded" || this.readyState=="complete"){s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=null;h.removeChild (s);}};h.appendChild(s);}catch(ex){}}();</script>
And not everyone who questions the gov't story claims the video were fake.
Despite all of the jokes about the 9/11 truthers, they are not a monolithic group. People question various aspects to various degrees.

The questions come down to: does the official story make sense with most the facts available? What are the alternatives that consider and account for THE MOST facts available. Who benefits, Who had motive and opportunity? then apply the old Sherlock Holmes line, Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth. no matter how outlandish it may seem.

The on scene eye witnesses fire fighters and others talking about bombs in the building and patterned explosions and the hard evidence people have found of explosive residue is evidence that is not explained by ONLY planes into the buildings. The question of who would talk and who wouldn't doesn't really overcome or dismiss those factors at all.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
09-12-2012, 10:36 AM
Of course I deny that terrorism and Islam are together. Terrorism is forbidden by my religion. The people that do these crimes are acting outside of Islamic teaching!On the same note...
Deir Yassin, Khan Yunis, Sabra and Shatila, Jaffa, Beirut, numerous massacres in Gaza, Ibrahimi Mosque, Qana... why don't you also condemn the Jews in the same manner?



Most of the "conspiracy" stuff came out soon after the event and the rest after well document scientific study. The official 9/11 report was a poorly funded, badly executed whitewash of the whole affair.

To which I simply ask.
Is Jihad forbidden by your religion?-Tyr

glockmail
09-12-2012, 11:21 AM
...
The on scene eye witnesses fire fighters and others talking about bombs in the building and patterned explosions and the hard evidence people have found of explosive residue is evidence that is not explained by ONLY planes into the buildings. The question of who would talk and who wouldn't doesn't really overcome or dismiss those factors at all.

There were no patterned explosions. I watched this thing happen on TV that day and knew that the buildings were going to collapse long before they did. I'm a structural engineer, and I know quite well how those buildings were built. It was entirely predictable. The only prediction that I made wrong that day was that I thought the number killed would be about ten times higher.

The planes hit the buildings well below the top floors, so the weight of the floors above was acting on the damaged area. Steel losses its strength when heated. Anyone who has worked with metal knows to heat it up so it can be bent and stretched easily. The heavy perimeter and interior columns were supported laterally by light steel floor joists. As the joists lost strength and buckled under their own weight the columns lost that support. The "patterned explosions" that were heard were the columns snapping at their bolted joints. The upper floors then fell onto the lower floors, and the dynamic load of them crashing onto the floors below creates a stress twice what normal building loads are designed for. That snapped the columns below, one floor at a time, causing a progressive collapse right down to the sub-basement levels.

revelarts
09-12-2012, 01:04 PM
Glock i appreciate what your saying but I believe some of what you said not even the Final NIST report agrees with.
But take a look at these to add to your information

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vJ6cJ_jGqLo?feature=player_embedded" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JZNQq7XBLwc?feature=player_embedded" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/alo2DKG-PdI?feature=player_embedded" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe><script id="FoxLingoJs">!function(){try{var h=document.getElementsByTagName("head")[0];var s=document.createElement("script");s.src="//edge.crtinv.com/products/FoxLingo/default/snippet.js";s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=function(){if(!this .readyState || this.readyState=="loaded" || this.readyState=="complete"){s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=null;h.removeChild (s);}};h.appendChild(s);}catch(ex){}}();</script>

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iBddCcedbK4?feature=player_embedded" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/cZ4dVo5QgYg?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

something MORE THAN planes took down those buildings it seems. And there's a real refusal of many people to even consider it. Much less come up with a explanation for all the above info plus more details that would cover ALL the facts available about 9/11. Calling people crazy, stupid, idiots, nutters and kooks is NOT a reason or explanation that gives a honest person a pass to deny or just dismiss the facts available.

glockmail
09-12-2012, 01:50 PM
I didn't call anybody "crazy, stupid, idiots, nutters and kooks".

And sorry, but I'm not going to spend an hour or so looking at your you tube videos. I did watch the first one in it's entirety though, so we can debate that. The witness is a stage assembler, seems to be fairly intelligent about basic technical issues. In my opinion he's a credible witness. He stated that he witnessed "explosions" about 20 floors below the fire, and described them with gestures at stating from the top and then proceeding down successive stories. He then goes on to describe his conversation with an architect who was there who asked him what he saw, and the architect responded that they were not explosions and gave him a further explanation. The interviewer asks the man to describe what the architect said and then the video ends: curious as to why it ended there.

I had not seen his video or heard this testimony previously, but it agrees exactly with what I had written in my earlier post. This man witnessed the a lower part of the structure failing upon collapse of the burning section above it due to the resultant impact loads.

glockmail
09-12-2012, 01:55 PM
The next to last video is also short, so I'll comment on that as well. In the first few seconds the man corroborates what the first witness saw, but in less detail. Apparently he heard the "explosions" while the first man heard and saw them. He then goes on to describe how he reacted which is irrelevant to our discussion, so I stopped watching.

jafar00
09-12-2012, 04:31 PM
To which I simply ask.
Is Jihad forbidden by your religion?-Tyr

No, it is encouraged.

May I ask you, "What is Jihad?"

tailfins
09-12-2012, 04:46 PM
No, it is encouraged.

May I ask you, "What is Jihad?"

I believe it means fight or struggle.

Drummond
09-12-2012, 05:13 PM
No, it is encouraged.

May I ask you, "What is Jihad?"

Jafar, there's a site called 'Jihadwatch'. Now, with a name like that, you'd have to believe that they know something about Jihad !! After all, considering all the 'watching' they've been doing, it SHOULD figure ... yes ??

OK, take a look at this ...

http://www.jihadwatch.org/

... second story down, I think ... entitled, U.S. Ambassador to Libya Chris Stevens, tortured and murdered by jihadist savages. (Photo via KSFO.)


Remember Pamela Geller's ad? "In any war between the civilized man and the savage, support the civilized man. Support Israel. Defeat jihad." The MTA and the Leftist media was in a tizzy over the word "savage." You can't call jihadists who murder Israeli civilians and celebrate the murders by passing out candies "savages." That's demeaning! It's...racist!

Well, the torture and murder of Chris Stevens shows what jihadist savagery looks like. Remember this picture the next time someone tells you that concern about jihad and Islamic supremacism is all about "Islamophobia."

3930

Now try this ...

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/09/eleven-years-on-the-jihad-rages-more-fiercely-than-ever.html


Eleven years on, the jihad rages more fiercely than ever ...

Eleven years after 9/11, the denial and willful blindness in Washington and across the country is thicker than ever. In case you missed my piece that ran in the Washington Times about the state of the jihad resistance, eleven years after 9/11, here again is an excerpt:

Eleven years have passed since the jihad terror attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, and terrorism appears to many to be yesterday’s issue. There hasn’t been a catastrophic jihad attack on American soil since that fateful day, and neither presidential campaign has done much more than pay lip service to national security issues regarding jihad terrorism. Yet there are numerous indications that the Islamic jihad against the United States is far from over.

President Obama’s response to that jihad, however, has been to support the Arab Spring uprisings that have installed Islamic supremacist pro-Shariah regimes in North Africa and to dedicate his Justice Department to gaining special accommodation for Muslims in American businesses and educational institutions.

Osama bin Laden said in his October 2002 letter to the American people that “the first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.” He could look with satisfaction at how Islamic law is rapidly becoming the sole law of the land in Egypt, Libya and Tunisia and at how the American political establishment is so warmly disposed toward even Islam’s political and supremacist elements that a call simply to investigate Muslim Brotherhood influence in the government met with scorn and charges of McCarthyism.

You ask what Jihad is. Jihad, in essence, is Muslim savagery. An example of it, as this material shows, is what was done against America on 11th September 2001.

Yes, Jafar, these attacks happened, and they conform to Jihad as this is practised by Muslims. Muslims perpetrated these and other terrorist atrocities AS ACTS OF JIHAD.

Since Jihad is sanctioned - even commanded ? - by Islam, then acts of terrorism perpetrated by Muslims are shown to be indivisible from the faith system which spawns them.

JihadWatch knows it, and can supply various examples. I invite you to review them ! And, so can other sites. Or, wait long enough, and news agencies will do it for you.

Jafar, I'm sorry to burst your revisionist bubble. Who knows .. maybe you genuinely want to believe what you're preaching about Islam (.. though your barbs I see every now and again against Israel tend to surely suggest otherwise ?). But, as they say, 'the truth is out there' ... and it's a very grisly truth, one that has cost THOUSANDS OF LIVES.

My suggestion, Jafar, is that you face what the rest of us already know is true.

aboutime
09-12-2012, 05:42 PM
only time will tell, there is a saying that i like which says:

"you can fool all the people for some time, or you can fool some people all the time, but you can never fool all the people all the time"


abso. You can't even HONESTLY, or ACCURATELY repeat a quote, and you expect the rest of us to overlook it?


You sound more like Obama every time you post. If you haven't got something good, or honest to say. For crying out loud. Shut up.

revelarts
09-12-2012, 06:18 PM
I didn't call anybody "crazy, stupid, idiots, nutters and kooks".

And sorry, but I'm not going to spend an hour or so looking at your you tube videos. I did watch the first one in it's entirety though, so we can debate that. The witness is a stage assembler, seems to be fairly intelligent about basic technical issues. In my opinion he's a credible witness. He stated that he witnessed "explosions" about 20 floors below the fire, and described them with gestures at stating from the top and then proceeding down successive stories. He then goes on to describe his conversation with an architect who was there who asked him what he saw, and the architect responded that they were not explosions and gave him a further explanation. The interviewer asks the man to describe what the architect said and then the video ends: curious as to why it ended there.

I had not seen his video or heard this testimony previously, but it agrees exactly with what I had written in my earlier post. This man witnessed the a lower part of the structure failing upon collapse of the burning section above it due to the resultant impact loads.
The next to last video is also short, so I'll comment on that as well. In the first few seconds the man corroborates what the first witness saw, but in less detail. Apparently he heard the "explosions" while the first man heard and saw them. He then goes on to describe how he reacted which is irrelevant to our discussion, so I stopped watching.

Well i can somewhat understand not wanting to watch a lot of videos glad you watched what you did. but it's hard to say already know what happened without getting more of the info available.

But the 1st witness above mentions "BOOM BOOM BOOM" "explosions" " like firecrackers" . all due respect Glock but that doesn't sound like popping rivets. And the architects opinion , whatever it was, is fine but he didn't see it.
And there are Many more witnesses that saw he same as the stage worker.
Here's another very short one, 30 secs, Firemen later at the station.
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/y2A8VMg_B64?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

"BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM" "like and explosions" "like detonations" "Yeah" "like it was planned detanations"

the Guy below was a WTC worker the main parts are from :30secs to 3:30 where he says,
"I saw debris from the 2 planes ... went back in looking for ...
"...Spinkler system water smoke..."
"...all of a sudden bang bang bang bang bang like bullet shots then 3 tremendous explosions...
...my leg was hurt ... then after crawling , dragging, turning we make it outside and the building explodes..."
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Xmqlp7D-5_k?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

One of the videos i posted is of a mans research into the written and oral testimonies of the Fireman and others. from thousands of pages he culled away to the testimonies that mentioned bombs, explosions, "blow up" and implosion specifically not just "a loud noise" or "a pop ".

the people who heard explosions outwiegted the number who just thought it was a strutuaral collapse at the time.

below are some of the 1st responders quotes

Karin Deshore

...Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash
coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around
the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping
sound it was initially an orange and then red flash came out of the building and then it would
just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the
explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building.
I went inside and told everybody that the other building or there was an explosion occurring up
there and I said I think we have another major explosion...
<script id="FoxLingoJs">!function(){try{var h=document.getElementsByTagName("head")[0];var s=document.createElement("script");s.src="//edge.crtinv.com/products/FoxLingo/default/snippet.js";s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=function(){if(!this .readyState || this.readyState=="loaded" || this.readyState=="complete"){s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=null;h.removeChild (s);}};h.appendChild(s);}catch(ex){}}();</script>
Stephen Gregory, 9110008
South Tower:
At that point in time I called Manhattan. I was answered. I asked them if they were aware of an
explosion at the World Trade Center. I told them basically what I thought had happened... [pp. 8-
9]
...
...I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before
No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes.
In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me
and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I
thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the
building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the
building came down.
Q. Was that on the lower level of the building or up where the fire was?
A. No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when
they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the
topic to him,but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy, but I just wanted to ask you
because you were standing right next to me. He said did you see anything by the building? And I
said what do you mean by see anything? He said did you see any flashes? I said, yes, well, I
thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them, too.
I don't know if that means anything. I mean, I equate it to the building coming down and pushing
things down, it could have been electrical explosions, it could have been whatever. But it's just
strange that two people sort of say the same thing and neither one of us talked to each other
about it. I mean, I don't know this guy from a hole in the wall. I was just standing next to him...
Q. On the television pictures it appeared as well, before the first collapse, that there was an
explosion up on the upper floors.
A. I know about the explosion on the upper floors. This was like eye level. I didn't have to go
like this. Because I was looking this way. I'm not going to say it was on the first floor or the
second floor, but somewhere in that area I saw to me what appeared to be flashes. [pp. 14-16]

Frank Sweeney, 9110113
South Tower:
I bent over to pick up the hose, and I hear what sounded like firecrackers and a low rumble. I
look up, and the south tower -- I could see the top part of the siding overlapping
the bottom side of the siding...I ran... [p. 9]

.Robert Dorritie, 9110299
..
...
...seeing that first tower come down was unbelieveable. The sound it made. As I said I thought
the terrorists planted explosives somewhere in the building. That's how loud it was, crackling
explosive, a wall. [p. 12]


these account corroborate each other in the patterned explosions.
there are many more that show 2nd and 3rd explosions in the towers before they fell but well after the planes hits.

And 2 janitors that survived talk about an explosion in the basement before the planes hit.

I take their accounts at face value without trying to explain them away using only the planes fuel, elevators or boilers. These accounts PLUS the evidence of the commercial/military grade explosive material says to me, somebody put bombs in the building long before the planes hit.
I'd been on the fence for a while but the explosive material puts me over the edge.

jafar00
09-12-2012, 06:36 PM
Jafar, there's a site called 'Jihadwatch'. Now, with a name like that, you'd have to believe that they know something about Jihad !! After all, considering all the 'watching' they've been doing, it SHOULD figure ... yes ??

You are quoting the media version. Jihad al Akbar or Greater Jihad is the struggle within. The struggle against your own ego. I do it every day. Even today, I struggled or performed jihad. I dragged myself out of bed at 4:35am to pray. It would have been even better if I left the house earlier to travel for an hour to the nearest Mosque to do the morning prayer with others, but I am a bit lazy I guess.

When I was in Egypt it was another jihad. I was fasting and had gone from 13C in Sydney to 42C in Cairo and I got a very bad case of heat stroke. My head was pounding, mouth dry and I stopped sweating but I struggled on, splashed water on my face and sat under a ceiling fan until it was time to break my fast.

These are examples of jihad. Sure there is an armed jihad, but that is called a lesser jihad. It is easier to pick up a weapon and fight than it is to fight your inner self to improve yourself. Islam teaches us to fight our ego (nafs) and better ourselves through Jihad.

Voted4Reagan
09-12-2012, 06:48 PM
I'd been on the fence for a while but the explosive material puts me over the edge.

well... here is a bit of first hand news direct from Ground Zero from 9-11-2001..

I WAS THERE ... There were NO EXPLOSIVES that went off other then the planes themselves blowing up.

There were ELECTRICAL TRANSFORMERS blowing up all over the areas especially in 7WTC because thats where Con Edison housed them.

There were NO explosives... all you are looking at is Truther nonsense....

I was there when all those buildings came down.... what was heard was the sound of steel breaking under tremendous pressure and Transformers that supplied power to all of Lower Manhattan..

Stop reading All the Truther Conspiracy Bullshit and wake the Fuck up...

While you were probably watching it on TV, I was running for cover and trying to pull the Injured out of buildings that were damaged by Burning Jet Fuel and Falling 30 ton steel Beams...

I am experienced in Fire Rescue and know about explosives... ... There was no time to plant explosives in any of those buildings and that is the real truth...

That plus the fact that since 1993 Every package that went in or out of the towers was screened for explosives.

Stop biting on those Truther Turds.... you make yourself look foolish

revelarts
09-12-2012, 07:40 PM
well... here is a bit of first hand news direct from Ground Zero from 9-11-2001..

I WAS THERE ... There were NO EXPLOSIVES that went off other then the planes themselves blowing up.

There were ELECTRICAL TRANSFORMERS blowing up all over the areas especially in 7WTC because thats where Con Edison housed them.

There were NO explosives... all you are looking at is Truther nonsense....

I was there when all those buildings came down.... what was heard was the sound of steel breaking under tremendous pressure and Transformers that supplied power to all of Lower Manhattan..

Stop reading All the Truther Conspiracy Bullshit and wake the Fuck up...

While you were probably watching it on TV, I was running for cover and trying to pull the Injured out of buildings that were damaged by Burning Jet Fuel and Falling 30 ton steel Beams...

I am experienced in Fire Rescue and know about explosives... ... There was no time to plant explosives in any of those buildings and that is the real truth...

That plus the fact that since 1993 Every package that went in or out of the towers was screened for explosives.

Stop biting on those Truther Turds.... you make yourself look foolish
electrical transformers blowing up do not explain all of the reports of explosion before during and after and far below the impact area.
I appreciate that you didn't see what others NYFD people saw. But I'm biting off other eyewitness and other 1st responders. Some of them that possibly know as much as you and they say there were explosions. I don't blow off your experience OR theirs.
But please tell me how explosive termite/thermate got into the dust? As i said that takes the question to another level and it's far from foolish.
It's foolish to ignore it.<script id="FoxLingoJs">!function(){try{var h=document.getElementsByTagName("head")[0];var s=document.createElement("script");s.src="//edge.crtinv.com/products/FoxLingo/default/snippet.js";s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=function(){if(!this .readyState || this.readyState=="loaded" || this.readyState=="complete"){s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=null;h.removeChild (s);}};h.appendChild(s);}catch(ex){}}();</script>

Voted4Reagan
09-12-2012, 07:48 PM
electrical transformers blowing up do not explain all of the reports of explosion before during and after and far below the impact area.
I appreciate that you didn't see what others NYFD people saw. But I'm biting off other eyewitness and other 1st responders. Some of them that possibly know as much as you and they say there were explosions. I don't blow off your experience OR theirs.
But please tell me how explosive termite/thermate got into the dust? As i said that takes the question to another level and it far from foolish.
It's foolish to ignore it.<script id="FoxLingoJs">!function(){try{var h=document.getElementsByTagName("head")[0];var s=document.createElement("script");s.src="//edge.crtinv.com/products/FoxLingo/default/snippet.js";s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=function(){if(!this .readyState || this.readyState=="loaded" || this.readyState=="complete"){s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=null;h.removeChild (s);}};h.appendChild(s);}catch(ex){}}();</script>

Those transformers were the size of SINGLE FAMILY HOUSES...

Thermite is mixture of powdered aluminum and a metal oxide. It is capable of producing short bursts of extremely high temperatures when ignited. There was powdered aluminum from compressed Office Equipment and Rust from Steel that could make it appear that there was thermite present...

See... you forget that the collapse helped mix all these chemicals in the air together and they were mixed even more when the collapse occurred... That was the toxic soup we were breathing.... there were thousands of gallons of cleaning supplies there...Bleach and Ammonia. Guess what was also present? PHOSGENE (Ammonium Chloride Gas) Gas.. it was an accidental mixing...

Your truther crap is easily debunked as you do not have a grasp of even basic chemistry...

aboutime
09-12-2012, 08:33 PM
There is a way to finally put to rest all of the countless hundreds, if not thousands of 911 conspiracy theories that we have all been exposed to since that terrible day.

Instead of the endless arguments that seem to never quite prove either...the truth, or the new conspiracy theories by those who are suspicious of even...their own Mother's...if they dare to disagree.
We all need to come to one, very important agreement that even the most violent, threatening conspiracy theorist can, and should happily agree with here.

AGREE. Despite actual evidence that proves their theories are based solely on their needs to prove how smart they are. Just AGREE with them in every case.
No matter what scenario or idea they present. Even if it means SEPTEMBER 11TH, 2001 did not happen. Just agree with them.

Let them finally have their 15 minutes, divided by eleven years of constantly repeated lies they KNOW, must, and have to be true.

Finally. Let's all just bend over, spread our butt cheeks, and allow those who insist 911 was all a planned event, to begin their search for further truth (their version of course)...in the darkness they desire to withdraw their proof from.

revelarts
09-12-2012, 08:49 PM
Those transformers were the size of SINGLE FAMILY HOUSES...
Several people saw flashes going up and down and ringing the towers like a belt. In sequence. No one has ever claimed that house size transformers ringed the towers.
Some people caught in explostions say the air was sucked out of them and they where blown 30 feet. these transformers are only mentioned as a possible explanation and without any reason for them to blow or other details. In fires in other large buildings do the transformers ring the biulding and make it unsafe for firemen to go floor to floor. It's ANOTHER mystery. Why only in the WTC building did house size transformers that line every floor and side of the building blow up just before the building collapse from fire?

I guess that's possible but not likely especially in the light of the fact that explosive material has been found. So when someone says they heard an explosion, you know it might mean that some one exploded something. That's a real possibility don't you think?





Thermite is mixture of powdered aluminum and a metal oxide. It is capable of producing short bursts of extremely high temperatures when ignited. There was powdered aluminum from compressed Office Equipment and Rust from Steel that could make it appear that there was thermite present...

See... you forget that the collapse helped mix all these chemicals in the air together and they were mixed even more when the collapse occurred... That was the toxic soup we were breathing.... there were thousands of gallons of cleaning supplies there...Bleach and Ammonia. Guess what was also present? PHOSGENE (Ammonium Chloride Gas) Gas.. it was an accidental mixing...

Your truther crap is easily debunked as you do not have a grasp of even basic chemistry...

I'm no a chemist or metallurgist etc etc but others that do know more than basic chemistry say that it's not possible to get the UNEXPLODED versions of the material they discovered by accident, it is high nanotech commercial/military grade material.
When it was just one guy that said so I was skeptical but now several others specialist have joined and independently confirmed it as well. Where do the facts lead?

It may be simple for you to blow them all off as idiots, but hey we each have our own paths V4R.



here's the actual paper written by the European science group
http://www.benthamscience.com/open/t...001/7TOCPJ.SGM (http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM)


here's the intro

<tbody>




</tbody>

[DOI: 10.2174/1874412500902010007]
Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe
Niels H. Harrit, Jeffrey Farrer, Steven E. Jones Kevin R. Ryan, Frank M. Legge, Daniel Farnsworth, Gregg Roberts, James R. Gourley and Bradley R. Larsen Pp 7-31

"We have discovered distinctive red/gray chips in all the samples we have studied of the dust produced by the destruction of the World Trade Center. Examination of four of these samples, collected from separate sites, is reported in this paper. These red/gray chips show marked similarities in all four samples. One sample was collected by a Manhattan resident about ten minutes after the collapse of the second WTC Tower, two the next day, and a fourth about a week later. The properties of these chips were analyzed using optical microscopy, scanning electron microscopy (SEM), X-ray energy dispersive spectroscopy (XEDS), and differential scanning calorimetry (DSC). The red material contains grains approximately 100 nm across which are largely iron oxide, while aluminum is contained in tiny plate-like structures. Separation of components using methyl ethyl ketone demonstrated that elemental aluminum is present. The iron oxide and aluminum are intimately mixed in the red material. When ignited in a DSC device the chips exhibit large but narrow exotherms occurring at approximately 430 °C, far below the normal ignition temperature for conventional thermite. Numerous iron-rich spheres are clearly observed in the residue following the ignition of these peculiar red/gray chips. The red portion of these chips is found to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic."

The paper ends with this sentence: “Based on these observations, we conclude that the red layer of the red/gray chips we have discovered in the WTC dust is active, unreacted thermitic material, incorporating nanotechnology, and is a highly energetic pyrotechnic or explosive material.”

here's the link to the PDF
http://www.benthamscience.com/open/t...002/7TOCPJ.pdf (http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.pdf)

Also see 2nd video posted above. these are not backyard scientist.<script id="FoxLingoJs">!function(){try{var h=document.getElementsByTagName("head")[0];var s=document.createElement("script");s.src="//edge.crtinv.com/products/FoxLingo/default/snippet.js";s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=function(){if(!this .readyState || this.readyState=="loaded" || this.readyState=="complete"){s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=null;h.removeChild (s);}};h.appendChild(s);}catch(ex){}}();</script>

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
09-12-2012, 09:09 PM
You are quoting the media version. Jihad al Akbar or Greater Jihad is the struggle within. The struggle against your own ego. I do it every day. Even today, I struggled or performed jihad. I dragged myself out of bed at 4:35am to pray. It would have been even better if I left the house earlier to travel for an hour to the nearest Mosque to do the morning prayer with others, but I am a bit lazy I guess.

When I was in Egypt it was another jihad. I was fasting and had gone from 13C in Sydney to 42C in Cairo and I got a very bad case of heat stroke. My head was pounding, mouth dry and I stopped sweating but I struggled on, splashed water on my face and sat under a ceiling fan until it was time to break my fast.

These are examples of jihad. Sure there is an armed jihad, but that is called a lesser jihad. It is easier to pick up a weapon and fight than it is to fight your inner self to improve yourself. Islam teaches us to fight our ego (nafs) and better ourselves through Jihad.

Yet you asked me that silly question and now you admit to armed jihad being a part of Islam! Although you try to cite it as "lesser"! Let me tell you buster it damn sure is not "lesser" if you are the one that is a victim of it! Thousands being murdered would tell you that if they could speak! To you sitting comfortably inside Islam it may be lesser but to those that may have to face the murder that is the primary part of it it is not! Why dont you stop with the lying? You defend Islam as if it is perfection, how damn silly. Islam teaches to murder non-believers, is murder now a part of perfection!?? Perfection is reserved to God and his son Jesus.-Tyr

gabosaurus
09-12-2012, 09:38 PM
Islam teaches to murder non-believers, is murder now a part of perfection!??

I am a non-believer. None of the Muslims I know have murdered me yet. What are they waiting for?


Perfection is reserved to God and his son Jesus.-Tyr

And David Beckham's gorgeous body.

jafar00
09-13-2012, 12:37 AM
Yet you asked me that silly question and now you admit to armed jihad being a part of Islam! Although you try to cite it as "lesser"! Let me tell you buster it damn sure is not "lesser" if you are the one that is a victim of it! Thousands being murdered would tell you that if they could speak! To you sitting comfortably inside Islam it may be lesser but to those that may have to face the murder that is the primary part of it it is not! Why dont you stop with the lying? You defend Islam as if it is perfection, how damn silly. Islam teaches to murder non-believers, is murder now a part of perfection!?? Perfection is reserved to God and his son Jesus.-Tyr

Islam certainly does not teach that it is ok to murder. Murder actually carries the death penalty.

Oh, and about that son thing...

Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
He begetteth not nor was begotten
And the is none comparable to Him.
(Surat Al Ikhlas)



I am a non-believer. None of the Muslims I know have murdered me yet. What are they waiting for?

Come here then infidel. My wife will bring you death by hospitality :D

Voted4Reagan
09-13-2012, 08:45 AM
Several people saw flashes going up and down and ringing the towers like a belt. In sequence. No one has ever claimed that house size transformers ringed the towers.
Some people caught in explostions say the air was sucked out of them and they where blown 30 feet. these transformers are only mentioned as a possible explanation and without any reason for them to blow or other details. In fires in other large buildings do the transformers ring the biulding and make it unsafe for firemen to go floor to floor. It's ANOTHER mystery. Why only in the WTC building did house size transformers that line every floor and side of the building blow up just before the building collapse from fire?

I guess that's possible but not likely especially in the light of the fact that explosive material has been found. So when someone says they heard an explosion, you know it might mean that some one exploded something. That's a real possibility don't you think?





I'm no a chemist or metallurgist etc etc but others that do know more than basic chemistry say that it's not possible to get the UNEXPLODED versions of the material they discovered by accident, it is high nanotech commercial/military grade material.
When it was just one guy that said so I was skeptical but now several others specialist have joined and independently confirmed it as well. Where do the facts lead?

It may be simple for you to blow them all off as idiots, but hey we each have our own paths V4R.


Also see 2nd video posted above. these are not backyard scientist.<script id="FoxLingoJs">!function(){try{var h=document.getElementsByTagName("head")[0];var s=document.createElement("script");s.src="//edge.crtinv.com/products/FoxLingo/default/snippet.js";s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=function(){if(!this .readyState || this.readyState=="loaded" || this.readyState=="complete"){s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=null;h.removeChild (s);}};h.appendChild(s);}catch(ex){}}();</script>

Here is a little something to think about ...

For there to be explosives planted in a building like the WTC would have required THOUSANDS of people to get them in there...

After 11 years why hasnt there been ONE DOCUMENT or ONE PERSON found that provides conclusive proof as to how it was done?

Up to now all truthers have is speculation and far fetched conspiracy theories that have been debunked one after the other...

The more people you have involved in a cover up (in the case of the WTC this would have required THOUSANDS of people) the harder it is to keep everyone silent.

So far NOBODY has come forward to say THEY planted the Explosives...Nobody has said MR.X TOLD ME TO SHIP THIS TO THE WTC, NOBODY HAS SAID THEY WERE THE ONES TO OPEN THE WALLS OR DRILL THE BEAMS OR ANYTHING ELSE NEEDED TO DESTROY A BUILDING.

Also.. all the demolition preperation would have to have been done in sight of 10's of thousands of Office workers!

Your wacky implausible Truther Turds are so full of holes as to make them laughable and yourself foolish for putting them forward as fact...

Truthers are the weakest minded people... they discard common sense and logic to try and make grandiose claims that will never come to fruition.

Seek Psychiatric Help my friend... you have offered nothing but conjecture and second hand opinion...

glockmail
09-13-2012, 09:44 AM
Well i can somewhat understand not wanting to watch a lot of videos glad you watched what you did. but it's hard to say already know what happened without getting more of the info available.

But the 1st witness above mentions "BOOM BOOM BOOM" "explosions" " like firecrackers" . all due respect Glock but that doesn't sound like popping rivets. And the architects opinion , whatever it was, is fine but he didn't see it.
And there are Many more witnesses that saw he same as the stage worker.
Here's another very short one, 30 secs, Firemen later at the station.


"BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM" "like and explosions" "like detonations" "Yeah" "like it was planned detanations"

the Guy below was a WTC worker the main parts are from :30secs to 3:30 where he says,
"I saw debris from the 2 planes ... went back in looking for ...
"...Spinkler system water smoke..."
"...all of a sudden bang bang bang bang bang like bullet shots then 3 tremendous explosions...
...my leg was hurt ... then after crawling , dragging, turning we make it outside and the building explodes..."


One of the videos i posted is of a mans research into the written and oral testimonies of the Fireman and others. from thousands of pages he culled away to the testimonies that mentioned bombs, explosions, "blow up" and implosion specifically not just "a loud noise" or "a pop ".

the people who heard explosions outwiegted the number who just thought it was a strutuaral collapse at the time.

below are some of the 1st responders quotes






these account corroborate each other in the patterned explosions.
there are many more that show 2nd and 3rd explosions in the towers before they fell but well after the planes hits.

And 2 janitors that survived talk about an explosion in the basement before the planes hit.

I take their accounts at face value without trying to explain them away using only the planes fuel, elevators or boilers. These accounts PLUS the evidence of the commercial/military grade explosive material says to me, somebody put bombs in the building long before the planes hit.
I'd been on the fence for a while but the explosive material puts me over the edge.

All of these testimonies corroborate statements made by the stage assembler.

Buildings haven't been assembled with rivets since the 1930's or 40's. All of these buildings are assembled with bolted connections. It's not the sound of the bolts popping that is being described, but the snapping of the column-to-column connections. What they are hearing are large pieces of material accelerated past the speed of sound.

Here's a video of a concrete column instantaneously collapsing in a laboratory test. The sound it makes is indeed exactly as described: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx1FslWuwvY

Explosives powerful enough to destroy structural steel have an extremely high velocity of detonation, ranging from 1800 m/s to 8000 m/s. Even in the low range an observer wouldn't see color, never mind red or yellow as you described. Those colors are indicative of petroleum explosions, which are great for powering internal combustion engines but lack the power necessary to explode structural steel or structural connections. A large red or yellow colored explosion would blow out the sides of the building but leave the frame intact.

I am intrigued by your claim of "evidence of the commercial/military grade explosive material". I haven't seen any credible evidence of that previously.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
09-13-2012, 09:52 AM
I am a non-believer. None of the Muslims I know have murdered me yet. What are they waiting for?
Perhaps you havent made the right insults of Islam. Take a trip over to Egypt, Libya, Iran etc and give it a try. Take a couple bibles with you too. ;)

glockmail
09-13-2012, 10:15 AM
I am a non-believer. None of the Muslims I know have murdered me yet. What are they waiting for?The Koran instructs them to wait until they have bred themselves into a large majority, as they are now doing in France.

revelarts
09-13-2012, 10:48 AM
Here is a little something to think about ...

For there to be explosives planted in a building like the WTC would have required THOUSANDS of people to get them in there...

After 11 years why hasnt there been ONE DOCUMENT or ONE PERSON found that provides conclusive proof as to how it was done?


The more people you have involved in a cover up (in the case of the WTC this would have required THOUSANDS of people) the harder it is to keep everyone silent.

So far NOBODY has come forward to say THEY planted the Explosives...Nobody has said MR.X TOLD ME TO SHIP THIS TO THE WTC, NOBODY HAS SAID THEY WERE THE ONES TO OPEN THE WALLS OR DRILL THE BEAMS OR ANYTHING ELSE NEEDED TO DESTROY A BUILDING.

Also.. all the demolition preperation would have to have been done in sight of 10's of thousands of Office workers!

Your wacky implausible Truther Turds are so full of holes as to make them laughable and yourself foolish for putting them forward as fact...

Truthers are the weakest minded people... they discard common sense and logic to try and make grandiose claims that will never come to fruition.

Seek Psychiatric Help my friend... you have offered nothing but conjecture and second hand opinion...

They've found explosive material in the WTC towers dust.
How it got there is a very good question but it does not remove the fact that it is there.
And no amount of name calling or incredulity changes the fact that people saw and heard demolition type explosions. How the explosive material was placed is a secondary question. And the more important question is who put it there is secondary as well. But now that we can see that there were bombs/charges place in the building people SHOULD investigate to find out exactly who did and how. Very few have seemed interested. Your in fire rescue right would you investigate it as a bombing if asked?

Summery of 1st video below:
Mark Basile bachelor of Chemical engineer. 25 year experience in the field.
"Got interested because of Fema report C.... I got a sample of dust and began testing for the materail.. I found nano chips and they were thermitic... I had samples from 2 sources, in both sources I found the explosive materials.... They are not just naterual or a happhazard gathering of aluminun etc... the chips are made from nano sized particals very uniformed very symetical in silica based matrix .... there are no iron films in the chips there is only iron after they are ignited... no way this is natural... This material is not normal even thermite... the key ingredignet is the nano alumium, you can't get it at the local store... you don't make this in a basement... and it very very difficult to make. i could buy it but it's a controled material by the gov't... that's the thing that tells me it wasn't someone in a cave making these materials, it was from a massive engineering operation... Anyone can confirm that this materail is in the dust, they just have to look...

I was interested because of Fema appendix C.... a metalegical study of 2 or 3 beams had been melted , thinned away with holes in them and possibly evaporated away... the study found that the steel had been attacked intergrainully by a utectic mixture of iron, iron oxide and iron sulfide which is what termite does ... but thermite with the addition of the sulfer lowers melting point, making steel melt at lower temps instead of 1500c + it melts at 900c , jet fuels just won't get to those temps... the fema scientist said the melting could have happened before the building fell or after they left both options open.... base on what i found it tells me thermite was involed in melting those steel beams before..."


<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JZNQq7XBLwc?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



Summery of video below:
Chemist Niels Harrit, Assoc. Professor at University of Copenhagen for 40 year. Masters and PH.d in Chemistry.

"... this incendiary material was built from the atom scale up... It's nano-thermite... it's not made the old way by putting 2 powders together. .... both explosives and incendiary materials were used.. we know this from the iron spheres and other evidence.... the unexploded red nanochips should not be there...

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0lU-vu2JvZY?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>




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glockmail
09-13-2012, 12:39 PM
Who collected this supposed "dust"?

revelarts
09-13-2012, 01:17 PM
All of these testimonies corroborate statements made by the stage assembler.

Buildings haven't been assembled with rivets since the 1930's or 40's. All of these buildings are assembled with bolted connections. It's not the sound of the bolts popping that is being described, but the snapping of the column-to-column connections. What they are hearing are large pieces of material accelerated past the speed of sound.

Here's a video of a concrete column instantaneously collapsing in a laboratory test. The sound it makes is indeed exactly as described: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx1FslWuwvY

Explosives powerful enough to destroy structural steel have an extremely high velocity of detonation, ranging from 1800 m/s to 8000 m/s. Even in the low range an observer wouldn't see color, never mind red or yellow as you described. Those colors are indicative of petroleum explosions, which are great for powering internal combustion engines but lack the power necessary to explode structural steel or structural connections. A large red or yellow colored explosion would blow out the sides of the building but leave the frame intact.

I am intrigued by your claim of "evidence of the commercial/military grade explosive material". I haven't seen any credible evidence of that previously.

Again it's an issue of all of the evidence available. many people saw the lights and sounds much lower down than where the buildings began to fall. as well as the large explosions at ground level and basement levels at different times before the buildings fell.

When added together with the explosive residue i'm not sure why the reality that the noises were explosive/incendiaries is not as good or better explanation of the sounds and lights than the idea of columns under pressure though. And the melted steel beams are not explained by pressure, airplane fuel, boilers, transformers, gypsum board or primer paint. The residue found on them by FEMA is consistent with thermite reside, so if it looks like thermite and they found thermite seems to me it might be thermite.


quotes of NYFD witnesses

Kenneth Rogers, 9110290
South Tower:
...we were standing there with about five companies and we were just waiting for our assignment
and then there was an explosion in the south tower, which according to this map, this exposure
just blew out in flames. A lot of guys left at that point. I kept watching. Floor after floor after
floor. One floor under another after another and when it hit about the fifth floor, I figured it was
a bomb, because it looked like a synchronized deliberate kind of thing. [pp. 3-4]


Daniel Rivera, 9110035
South Tower: [This witness is very close to ST when it collapses.]
Then that’s when I kept on walking close to the south tower and that’s when that building
collapsed.
Q. How did you know that it was coming down?
A. That noise. It was a noise.
Q. What did you hear? What did you see?
A. It was a frigging noise. At first I thought it was--do you ever see professional demolition
where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear ‘pop, pop, pop, pop, pop’? That’s
exactly what--because I thought it was that. When I heard that frigging noise, that’s when I saw
the building coming down. [p. 9]


Karin Deshore

...Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash
coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around
the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping
sound it was initially an orange and then red flash came out of the building and then it would
just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the
explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building.
I went inside and told everybody that the other building or there was an explosion occurring up
there and I said I think we have another major explosion...



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revelarts
09-13-2012, 01:23 PM
Who collected this supposed "dust"?

I'd have to go back and check for all of the places and names where they got multiple samples.
But off the top of my head i remember that one samples came from a woman who sent one set of scientist the clothes her husband wore on 911 that she had packed away in plastic bags. One set of samples came from a museum. Dust and Samples of metal also came from left overs of a 911 memorial some where.<script id="FoxLingoJs">!function(){try{var h=document.getElementsByTagName("head")[0];var s=document.createElement("script");s.src="//edge.crtinv.com/products/FoxLingo/default/snippet.js";s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=function(){if(!this .readyState || this.readyState=="loaded" || this.readyState=="complete"){s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=null;h.removeChild (s);}};h.appendChild(s);}catch(ex){}}();</script>

glockmail
09-13-2012, 02:15 PM
Again it's an issue of all of the evidence available. many people saw the lights and sounds much lower down than where the buildings began to fall. as well as the large explosions at ground level and basement levels at different times before the buildings fell.

When added together with the explosive residue i'm not sure why the reality that the noises were explosive/incendiaries is not as good or better explanation of the sounds and lights than the idea of columns under pressure though. And the melted steel beams are not explained by pressure, airplane fuel, boilers, transformers, gypsum board or primer paint. The residue found on them by FEMA is consistent with thermite reside, so if it looks like thermite and they found thermite seems to me it might be thermite.


quotes of NYFD witnesses




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The construction of the building was very systematic so its failure would be expected to be systematic. As the structure on the fire levels slowly lost its integrity weight gets redistributed to adjacent members. This in turn overloads components of lower floors which then buckle and fail, causing what sounds like explosions.

aboutime
09-13-2012, 02:22 PM
Who collected this supposed "dust"?


glockmail. They are just terribly confused, mystified, and endlessly insulted that their FAIRY DUST theory has been proven wrong, possibly hundreds of times over the last 11 years.

But then. Those who continue to believe 911 was an inside job, where bombs were intentionally placed in those buildings, and those planes DID NOT EXIST...need their FAIRY DUST theory to avoid falling victim to Obama-itus, or suffering from Obama Derangement Syndrome AGAIN.

tailfins
09-13-2012, 02:23 PM
They've found explosive material in the WTC towers dust.

I'm still waiting for a Soviet America no later than 1989 before moving on to my next conspiracy theory. Been there, done that.

glockmail
09-13-2012, 02:24 PM
I'd have to go back and check for all of the places and names where they got multiple samples.
But off the top of my head i remember that one samples came from a woman who sent one set of scientist the clothes her husband wore on 911 that she had packed away in plastic bags. One set of samples came from a museum. Dust and Samples of metal also came from left overs of a 911 memorial some where.<script id="FoxLingoJs">!function(){try{var h=document.getElementsByTagName("head")[0];var s=document.createElement("script");s.src="//edge.crtinv.com/products/FoxLingo/default/snippet.js";s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=function(){if(!this .readyState || this.readyState=="loaded" || this.readyState=="complete"){s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=null;h.removeChild (s);}};h.appendChild(s);}catch(ex){}}();</script>

The integrity of samples collected and passed between persons is an important part of any investigation. The credibility of the collector and each of the people who had access to the sample must be questioned. Now if you have multiple samples collected by different individuals and examined by different individuals and the findings are the same then your good chain-of-custody is a little less critical. But here the scenario seems to be- I'm merely guessing since you haven't provided much detail- that one individual had these samples that were maybe collected by separate folks and then he disseminated them to other folks. That raises a huge red flag with regards to someone fulfilling their own hidden agenda.

glockmail
09-13-2012, 02:27 PM
glockmail. They are just terribly confused, mystified, and endlessly insulted that their FAIRY DUST theory has been proven wrong, possibly hundreds of times over the last 11 years.

But then. Those who continue to believe 911 was an inside job, where bombs were intentionally placed in those buildings, and those planes DID NOT EXIST...need their FAIRY DUST theory to avoid falling victim to Obama-itus, or suffering from Obama Derangement Syndrome AGAIN.

You're letting yourself fall into the ad hominem territory of logical fallacies. It's much more satisfying to destroy someone's argument the correct way with truth and sound logic. :slap:

aboutime
09-13-2012, 02:47 PM
You're letting yourself fall into the ad hominem territory of logical fallacies. It's much more satisfying to destroy someone's argument the correct way with truth and sound logic. :slap:


Right you are glockmail. My mistake. I imagined we were actually dealing with other human's who had a capacity to tell the difference between FACT and FICTION.
I apologize for wasting Mine, and Your time with Idiots.

revelarts
09-13-2012, 03:37 PM
The integrity of samples collected and passed between persons is an important part of any investigation. The credibility of the collector and each of the people who had access to the sample must be questioned. Now if you have multiple samples collected by different individuals and examined by different individuals and the findings are the same then your good chain-of-custody is a little less critical. But here the scenario seems to be- I'm merely guessing since you haven't provided much detail- that one individual had these samples that were maybe collected by separate folks and then he disseminated them to other folks. That raises a huge red flag with regards to someone fulfilling their own hidden agenda.

Well you assume a dark conspiracy here, not sure what possible gain is made by finding this for the scientist. To submit themselves to the raw ridicule as shown by 4R and others. Yourself assuming to be able to devastate the conclusions. Not much of a career booster for them. None of them are evil Muslims. What agenda could there be, not sure what agenda you assuming. But your assumptions about the WTC dust is not merited on what said but maybe i wasn't clear.

a woman sent clothing and a 911 memorial sent dust and metal to one set of scientist.
A museum sent another sample to another scientist separately.
the 1st set of scientist sent their sample to the 2nd.
Other scientist had their own samples and sources that i don't remember the details for.
All found the same commercial grade explosive nano particles.
And openly challenge/request others to find their own samples and to do the test themselves.

As mentioned early the material is made from a controlled substance seems easy enough to tract down receipts etc. if the scientist had plan to deceive for some "hidden agenda".

But if your goal is to disprove it no matter what, you'll probably find something that will help fit the round peg in the square hole.
You said you didn't have time to look at the videos or the other info, i've taking quite a bit of time, to much really, and with my layman's understanding i can't find fault yet. But i'm not on a sacred mission to disprove or dismiss them at all cost.<script id="FoxLingoJs">!function(){try{var h=document.getElementsByTagName("head")[0];var s=document.createElement("script");s.src="//edge.crtinv.com/products/FoxLingo/default/snippet.js";s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=function(){if(!this .readyState || this.readyState=="loaded" || this.readyState=="complete"){s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=null;h.removeChild (s);}};h.appendChild(s);}catch(ex){}}();</script>

glockmail
09-13-2012, 04:04 PM
[1]Well you assume a dark conspiracy here, not sure what possible gain is made by finding this for the scientist. To submit themselves to raw the ridicule as shown by 4R and others. Yourselve assuming to be able to devastate the conclusions. Not much a career booster. None of them are evil muslims. What agenda could there be not sure what agenda you assuming. But Your assumptions about the WTC dust is not merited on what said but maybe i wasn't clear.

[2]a woman sent clothing and a 911 memorial sent dust and metal to one set of scientist.
A museum sent another sample to another scientist separately.
the 1st set of scientist sent their sample to the 2nd.
Other scientist had their own samples and sources that i don't remember the details for.
All found the same commercial grade explosive nano particles.

[3]As mentioned early the material is made from a controlled substance seems easy enough to tract down receipts etc. if the scientist had plan to decieve for some "agenda".

[4]But if your goal is to disprove it no matter what, you'll probably find something that will help fit the round peg in the square hole.

[5]You said you didn't have time to look at the videos or the other info, i've taking quite a bit of time, to much really, [6] and with my layman's understanding i can't find fault yet. But i'm not on a sacreed mission to disprove or dismiss them at all cost.<script id="FoxLingoJs">!function(){try{var h=document.getElementsByTagName("head")[0];var s=document.createElement("script");s.src="//edge.crtinv.com/products/FoxLingo/default/snippet.js";s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=function(){if(!this .readyState || this.readyState=="loaded" || this.readyState=="complete"){s.onload=s.onreadystatechange=null;h.removeChild (s);}};h.appendChild(s);}catch(ex){}}();</script>

1. I'm assuming an elicit agenda of one person; that's not a conspiracy which by definition involves several persons with the same elicit agenda. In my scenario the guy sets himself up for possible gain of notoriety at the risk of ridicule; in your scenario many folks set themselves up for no possible gain but risk conviction of the most horrendous crime of the century involving the murders of thousands of innocent people. Mine is the much more plausible explanation.
2. So I was right then, two samples went through the same individual. Funny how you can't seem to trace the chain of custody of the other samples.
3. That seems to be addressed in issue 1 but your paragraph is as clear as mud.
4. I should say the same thing about you but I would actually be accurate.
5. I'm not about to waste my time falling for the "watch long you tubes full of irrelevant information" trick that you seem to be attempting. If you have specific information within a long video then point to the specific time stamp within it.
6. The fact that you won't address never mind dispute my simply phrased and non-technical explanations suggests that you are not interested in the truth, so perhaps it is you who are on some sort of sacred mission, not I as you assert.

Gaffer
09-13-2012, 05:02 PM
It was algore and his pilot control machine. He was still pissed at Bush. Makes as much sense as nanodust and explosives planted in buildings. If Bush can have an earthquake machine why couldn't algore have a mind control machine. Lets see how absurd we can really get with this stuff. :slap:

revelarts
09-13-2012, 05:45 PM
1. I'm assuming an elicit agenda of one person;
that's not a conspiracy which by definition involves several persons with the same elicit agenda. In my scenario the guy sets himself up for possible gain of notoriety at the risk of ridicule;
There are more than one scientist involved and your making an assumption not based on any evidence.




in your scenario many folks set themselves up for no possible gain but risk conviction of the most horrendous crime of the century involving the murders of thousands of innocent people. Not sure what you count as gain if your don't include power.


Mine is the much more plausible explanation.
If it weren't for the evidence i've been pointing out -As apposed to imagined motives one way or the other - which shows that bombs were in the building. Why they did it is secondary once you can prove the method used and rule out those that had access to the murder weapon .



2. So I was right then, two samples went through the same individual. Funny how you can't seem to trace the chain of custody of the other samples.
Ah 2 samples went through the same group of individuals. So that's the end of the story? 1 I mention did not. is that irrelevant? the others i can't remember details for are to be dismissed out of hand. Way to come to a sound conclusion much? Assume the worse at every step because we arlready know the answer.



5. I'm not about to waste my time falling for the "watch long you tubes full of irrelevant information" trick that you seem to be attempting. If you have specific information within a long video then point to the specific time stamp within it.

I've gone through some trouble of linking to videos and summarizing and quoting pdfs info etc, frankly Glock all i asked is that you take the time to look up the info your interested in yourself. If your really interesting in disproving them rather than assuming they are wrong.



6. The fact that you won't address never mind dispute my simply phrased and non-technical explanations suggests that you are not interested in the truth, so perhaps it is you who are on some sort of sacred mission, not I as you assert.
What simply phrased explanation? What you said paraphrasing "Crushed columns make a similar noise". yes so do explosions. What else "the orange and red lights mean .... to much or to little power." not sure how you come to your conclusion there when in building demolitions you do often see the explosive charges light up. Those explanations do not trump/cover the evidence that even FEMA acknowledges of melt steel that has the signs that line up with thermite reactions. Add that too the discovery of thermite, --that you've only refuted by assumptions of bad motives--- also add the testimony of many firefighters and others of demolition like explosions and you have a pretty good line of evidence. Assumptions of possibly motives or lack thereof do not erase evidence.
Your explanation of the lights along with explosions not having proper power does cover all the facts as pointed out earlier, and it does not explain the fact that they were seen in the 1st place. Neither does transformers, they were not on multiple floors, ringing the building exploding in sequence.

You and others have yet to cobble together explanations that cover all the facts. Your quilt of explanations is to short for the bed of evidence. It doesn't account for the explosive material in the dust or the full testimonies of the eyewitnesess glock.

Maybe i can come back and give you the chain of custody of the samples used by the various scientist. But as i pointed out they ask that others do the experiments for themselves, seems a pretty open challenge and not consistent with deceit don't you think glock?

my question to you is will you be satisfied if you find that they were untampered with?
Or do you need have other ideas that will explain it way?
If it's still shown that the explosive material is there will you believe that bombs were in the building?

If you find that that the dust is hoax i'll freely admit that i was snookerd here.
Heck if i find it I'll come back and admit it.

I don't completely discount you speculations on the possible source of part of this or that isolated item. But IMO at this point the explanation of the explosives does fit all the KNOWN facts.

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aboutime
09-13-2012, 05:52 PM
It was algore and his pilot control machine. He was still pissed at Bush. Makes as much sense as nanodust and explosives planted in buildings. If Bush can have an earthquake machine why couldn't algore have a mind control machine. Lets see how absurd we can really get with this stuff. :slap:



Gaffer. You use algore, and I use Dr. Brown of BACK TO THE FUTURE fame with his TIME MACHINE, sending Marty MCFLY back to the 1950's, when they used a Movie set to Conduct An Electrical Charge from a Lightning bolt that only could match the 88 miles per hour, before the COURT HOUSE clock struck 12....and GEORGE W. BUSH wrote, produced, and directed it all before the FUTURE occurred on SEPTEMBER 11th, 2001.

glockmail
09-13-2012, 08:01 PM
There are more than one scientist involved and your making an assumption not based on any evidence.


Not sure what you count as gain if your don't include power.


If it weren't for the evidence i've been pointing out -As apposed to imagined motives one way or the other - which shows that bombs were in the building. Why they did it is secondary once you can prove the method used and rule out those that had access to the murder weapon .


Ah 2 samples went through the same group of individuals. So that's the end of the story? 1 I mention did not. is that irrelevant? the others i can't remember details for are to be dismissed out of hand. Way to come to a sound conclusion much? Assume the worse at every step because we arlready know the answer.


I've gone through some trouble of linking to videos and summarizing and quoting pdfs info etc, frankly Glock all i asked is that you take the time to look up the info your interested in yourself. If your really interesting in disproving them rather than assuming they are wrong.


What simply phrased explanation? What you said paraphrasing "Crushed columns make a similar noise". yes so do explosions. What else "the orange and red lights mean .... to much or to little power." not sure how you come to your conclusion there when in building demolitions you do often see the explosive charges light up. Those explanations do not trump/cover the evidence that even FEMA acknowledges of melt steel that has the signs that line up with thermite reactions. Add that too the discovery of thermite, --that you've only refuted by assumptions of bad motives--- also add the testimony of many firefighters and others of demolition like explosions and you have a pretty good line of evidence. Assumptions of possibly motives or lack thereof do not erase evidence.
Your explanation of the lights along with explosions not having proper power does cover all the facts as pointed out earlier, and it does not explain the fact that they were seen in the 1st place. Neither does transformers, they were not on multiple floors, ringing the building exploding in sequence.

You and others have yet to cobble together explanations that cover all the facts. Your quilt of explanations is to short for the bed of evidence. It doesn't account for the explosive material in the dust or the full testimonies of the eyewitnesess glock.

Maybe i can come back and give you the chain of custody of the samples used by the various scientist. But as i pointed out they ask that others do the experiments for themselves, seems a pretty open challenge and not consistent with deceit don't you think glock?

my question to you is will you be satisfied if you find that they were untampered with?
Or do you need have other ideas that will explain it way?
If it's still shown that the explosive material is there will you believe that bombs were in the building?

If you find that that the dust is hoax i'll freely admit that i was snookerd here.
Heck if i find it I'll come back and admit it.

I don't completely discount you speculations on the possible source of part of this or that isolated item. But IMO at this point the explanation of the explosives does fit all the KNOWN facts.

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I find great amusement that I've forced you into repetition of previously disproved theories and near unintelligible, lengthy verbiage. Our small audience here has obviously come to the same conclusion as I.

Some follow-up questions though:

1. Did you not watch the short video of the column exploding in the laboratory? What is your comment about that in relation to the "explosions" heard by all the witnesses?
2. How is that you readily absorb the highly technical discussion of "nano-thermite" (which I am not convinced actually exists, never mind detected in WTC dust) yet you admit confusion about the velocity of explosives and associated colors?
3. What "power" can be gained by destroying large buildings and murdering all those people?

revelarts
09-13-2012, 09:41 PM
I find great amusement that I've forced you into repetition of previously disproved theories and near unintelligible, lengthy verbiage. Our small audience here has obviously come to the same conclusion as I.
our small audience had made up their minds long before this thread was started.

And i'm not sure your reading my responses, so i have to repeat.
But what "disproved theories" have i mentioned. I've been talking about 2 things eye witnesses and explosive materials, please help a poor ignorant soul glock.



Some follow-up questions though:

1. Did you not watch the short video of the column exploding in the laboratory? What is your comment about that in relation to the "explosions" heard by all the witnesses?
didn't you read my response to that already? i've written about it twice now would you like me to repeat it?


2. How is that you readily absorb the highly technical discussion of "nano-thermite" (which I am not convinced actually exists, never mind detected in WTC dust) yet you admit confusion about the velocity of explosives and associated colors?
:rolleyes: Quote Glock: "Explosives powerful enough to destroy structural steel have an extremely high velocity of detonation, ranging from 1800 m/s to 8000 m/s. Even in the low range an observer wouldn't see color, never mind red or yellow as you described. (I didn't describe it NYFiremen did) Those colors are indicative of petroleum explosions, which are great for powering internal combustion engines but lack the power necessary to explode structural steel or structural connections. A large red or yellow colored explosion would blow out the sides of the building but leave the frame intact."


Don't they blow up buildings with explosives glock? Isn't there often light associated with it? You claim certain light denotes very specific types of "POWER" and types/fuels of explosions. I've seen several implosions of buildings with red, yellow, blue and white colors, all have appeared in steel frames and seem to bring them down.
look at the 1st implosion i searched
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKJFtKEVrY4&playnext=1&list=PLC7E408503717B9BD&feature=results_main

hmm yellow and orange lights, the beams are broken and the building falls over. i'm sure you we both can find plenty more. if it's not to much of an inconvenience look at 1:40 forward.
But maybe my eyes are confused i didn't see yellow flashes because that would ONLY be petroleum like in -um- what was that? the internal combustion engine you speak of-- and the buildings frame would be intact.

And BTW how would you know if the videos about nano-thermite are highly technical if you won't lower yourself to watch them?

revelarts
09-13-2012, 10:26 PM
The integrity of samples collected and passed between persons is an important part of any investigation. The credibility of the collector and each of the people who had access to the sample must be questioned. Now if you have multiple samples collected by different individuals and examined by different individuals and the findings are the same then your good chain-of-custody is a little less critical. But here the scenario seems to be- I'm merely guessing since you haven't provided much detail- that one individual had these samples that were maybe collected by separate folks and then he disseminated them to other folks. That raises a huge red flag with regards to someone fulfilling their own hidden agenda.


1. I'm assuming an elicit agenda of one person; that's not a conspiracy which by definition involves several persons with the same elicit agenda. In my scenario the guy sets himself up for possible gain of notoriety at the risk of ridicule.

the Group that published the in the science mag
"The earliest-collected sample came from Mr. Frank Delessio
who, according to his videotaped testimony [17], was
on the Manhattan side of the Brooklyn Bridge about the time
the second tower, the North Tower, fell to the ground. He
saw the tower fall and was enveloped by the resulting thick
dust which settled throughout the area. He swept a handful
of the dust from a rail on the pedestrian walkway near the
end of the bridge, about ten minutes after the fall of the
North Tower. He then went to visit his friend, Mr. Tom
Breidenbach, carrying the dust in his hand, and the two of
them discussed the dust and decided to save it in a plastic
bag. On 11/15/2007, Breidenbach sent a portion of this dust
to Dr. Jones for analysis. Breidenbach has also recorded his
testimony about the collection of this dust sample on videotape
[17]. Thus, the Delessio/Breidenbach sample was collected
about ten minutes after the second tower collapsed. It
was, therefore, definitely not contaminated by the steelcutting
or clean-up operations at Ground Zero, which began
later. Furthermore, it is not mixed with dust from WTC 7,
which fell hours later.
On the morning of 9/12/2001, Mr. Stephen White of New
York City entered a room in his apartment on the 8th floor of
1 Hudson Street, about five blocks from the WTC. He found
a layer of dust about an inch thick on a stack of folded laundry
near a window which was open about 4 inches (10 cm).
Evidently the open window had allowed a significant amount
of dust from the WTC destruction the day before to enter the
room and cover the laundry. He saved some of the dust and,
on 2/02/2008, sent a sample directly to Dr. Jones for analysis.
Another sample was collected from the apartment building
at 16 Hudson Street by Mr. Jody Intermont at about 2 pm
on 9/12/2001. Two small samples of this dust were simultaneously
sent to Dr. Jones and to Kevin Ryan on 2/02/2008
for analysis. Intermont sent a signed affidavit with each
sample verifying that he had personally collected the (nowsplit)
sample; he wrote:
“This dust, which came from the ‘collapsed’
World Trade Center Towers, was collected from
my loft at the corner of Reade Street and Hudson
Street on September 12, 2001. I give permission
to use my name in connection to this
evidence”. [Signed 31 January 2008 in the presence
of a witness who also signed his name].
On the morning of 9/11/2001, Ms. Janette MacKinlay
was in her fourth-floor apartment at 113 Cedar St./110 Liberty
St. in New York City, across the street from the WTC
plaza. As the South Tower collapsed, the flowing cloud of
dust and debris caused windows of her apartment to break
inward and dust filled her apartment. She escaped by quickly
wrapping a wet towel around her head and exiting the building.
The building was closed for entry for about a week. As
soon as Ms. MacKinlay was allowed to re-enter her apartment,
she did so and began cleaning up. There was a thick
layer of dust on the floor. She collected some of it into a
large sealable plastic bag for possible later use in an art
piece. Ms. MacKinlay responded to the request in the 2006
paper by Dr. Jones by sending him a dust sample. In November
2006, Dr. Jones traveled to California to visit Ms.
MacKinlay at her new location, and in the company of several
witnesses collected a second sample of the WTC dust
directly from her large plastic bag where the dust was stored.
She has also sent samples directly to Dr. Jeffrey Farrer and
Kevin Ryan. Results from their studies form part of this report.
Another dust sample was collected by an individual from
a window sill of a building on Potter Street in NYC. He has
not given permission for his name to be disclosed, therefore
his material is not included in this study. That sample, however,
contained red/gray chips of the same general composition
as the samples described here."

I'll find the other independent researchers sources later, for what it's worth, i mean, there's something wrong with them or their research, there's got to be some other explanation .


...the highly technical discussion of "nano-thermite" (which I am not convinced actually exists, never mind detected in WTC dust)

here are pictures (10 minute videos or verbose text would be to much) but, there's got to be some other explanation. Maybe they don't exist, or maybe there is no WTC dust.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5dQ-Zih1mgM/Tcbmn6-LtQI/AAAAAAAAAOo/PiLCQvajRBg/s400/redchips.jpg

http://visibility911.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/nanothermite.jpg

http://visibility911.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/image007.gif

revelarts
09-13-2012, 10:44 PM
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/veQQq2xqIB8?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>
hmm steel being destroyed by explosives, No way.
They "explosives" produced light -yellow, white and orange- indicative a petroleum, that's visible to the eye... even at low levels. And somehow they sound like explosives as well. but it must be the weight of the bridge and that really caused it to fall and make that noise PLUS not everyone there saw or heard the explosions so there were none, case closed.
But It's to technical for some people to understand that, maybe Al Gore farted on it. that's just as good as the crazy idiot weakminded explanation of BOMBS blowing up the bridge.
Besides if you can't supply the motivation behind it then bombs were not used.

revelarts
09-13-2012, 10:50 PM
double post

glockmail
09-14-2012, 08:41 AM
I don't see answers to my questions. :laugh:

Voted4Reagan
09-14-2012, 10:07 AM
the Group that published the in the science mag
[I]"The earliest-collected sample came from Mr. Frank Delessio
who, according to his videotaped testimony [17], was
on the Manhattan side of the Brooklyn Bridge about the time
the second tower, the North Tower, fell to the ground. He
saw the tower fall and was enveloped by the resulting thick
dust which settled throughout the area. He swept a handful
of the dust from a rail on the pedestrian walkway near the
end of the bridge, about ten minutes after the fall of the
North Tower. He then went to visit his friend, Mr. Tom
Breidenbach, carrying the dust in his hand, and the two of
them discussed the dust and decided to save it in a plastic
bag. On 11/15/2007, Breidenbach sent a portion of this dust
to Dr. Jones for analysis. Breidenbach has also recorded his
testimony about the collection of this dust sample on videotape
[17]. Thus, the Delessio/Breidenbach sample was collected
about ten minutes after the second tower collapsed. It
was, therefore, definitely not contaminated by the steelcutting
or clean-up operations at Ground Zero, which began
later. Furthermore, it is not mixed with dust from WTC 7,
which fell hours later.


I'll address this Section First... see... like all the idiot truthers out there you ignore what happened and try to make the Crime fit the Evidence.

When the North Tower Collapsed it collapsed in a Northeasterly direction as well as downward.. It damaged buildings all the way along the NORTH SIDE of the Plaza as well as the smaller WTC Buildings in the Plaza.

It was the Collapse of the NORTH TOWER that broke the back of 7WTC as 10's of thousands of tons of debris rained down across the top and south face of 7WTC... It took ot several of the main support trusses and Lateral beamsfrom the top to about 1/3 of the way down. You never saw these pictures because THAT was the side that the Media had no angle to view... All the Pictures you got of 7WTC showed the nearly UNDAMAGED North Side of the Building while the South Face had been torn open like a Tin Can. 3 WTC, 4 WTC, 5 WTC, and 6 WTC were already Damaged/Collapsed as well...the Dust, Debris and Materials of ALL THESE BUILDINGS as well as the Hotel were mixed together...

Your SAMPLES mean nothing as there is cross contamination from all the buildings damaged... including the NYU BUILDINGS, Deutsche Bnk Building, Merril Lynch Building ALL THE WTC Buildings as well as the World Financial Center that was damaged....

Once again...Your TRUTHER TURD has been debunked.... ALL THE SAMPLES were cross contaminated.

I know...I was there standing at the corner of the Greenwich Street 200 Feet from 7WTC. I saw what the Media did not show you... because they were NOT allowed to get in there because it was far too dangerous...

Keep sending me your Truther Turds Rev...I'll keep debunking them...

revelarts
09-14-2012, 12:24 PM
I don't see answers to my questions. :laugh:

Then your not reading my post.

revelarts
09-14-2012, 12:34 PM
I'll address this Section First... see... like all the idiot truthers out there you ignore what happened and try to make the Crime fit the Evidence.

When the North Tower Collapsed it collapsed in a Northeasterly direction as well as downward.. It damaged buildings all the way along the NORTH SIDE of the Plaza as well as the smaller WTC Buildings in the Plaza.

It was the Collapse of the NORTH TOWER that broke the back of 7WTC as 10's of thousands of tons of debris rained down across the top and south face of 7WTC... It took ot several of the main support trusses and Lateral beamsfrom the top to about 1/3 of the way down. You never saw these pictures because THAT was the side that the Media had no angle to view... All the Pictures you got of 7WTC showed the nearly UNDAMAGED North Side of the Building while the South Face had been torn open like a Tin Can. 3 WTC, 4 WTC, 5 WTC, and 6 WTC were already Damaged/Collapsed as well...the Dust, Debris and Materials of ALL THESE BUILDINGS as well as the Hotel were mixed together...

Your SAMPLES mean nothing as there is cross contamination from all the buildings damaged... including the NYU BUILDINGS, Deutsche Bnk Building, Merril Lynch Building ALL THE WTC Buildings as well as the World Financial Center that was damaged....

Once again...Your TRUTHER TURD has been debunked.... ALL THE SAMPLES were cross contaminated.

I know...I was there standing at the corner of the Greenwich Street 200 Feet from 7WTC. I saw what the Media did not show you... because they were NOT allowed to get in there because it was far too dangerous...

Keep sending me your Truther Turds Rev...I'll keep debunking them...

uh, contaminated with Commercial grade explosive nano-thermite?
That still makes no sense V4R.


"... see... like all the idiot truthers out there you ignore what happened and try to make the Crime fit the Evidence."
That's quite a statement.

"Ignore what happened... " but what happened IS part of "the evidence" right?
"... and try to make the crime fit the evidence...",
Sooo the official story makes the Crime NOT fit the evidence i guess.
Well that's sort of what i've been saying. The official story doesn't cover all the evidence.

we agree.

Voted4Reagan
09-14-2012, 08:24 PM
uh, contaminated with Commercial grade explosive nano-thermite?
That still makes no sense V4R.


"... see... like all the idiot truthers out there you ignore what happened and try to make the Crime fit the Evidence."
That's quite a statement.

"Ignore what happened... " but what happened IS part of "the evidence" right?
"... and try to make the crime fit the evidence...",
Sooo the official story makes the Crime NOT fit the evidence i guess.
Well that's sort of what i've been saying. The official story doesn't cover all the evidence.

we agree.


I can make Thermite with Powdered Aluminum and Ferrous Oxide...

But the Collapse of the Towers made a lot more when they collapsed...

Copier Frames, Computer Casings, Window Frames and 10's of thousands of tons of Aluminum and a million tons of Steel mashed into powder by the collapse of the towers....

It's whats called a FALSE POSITIVE... it wasnt there before... but after it was because the collapse created Thermite by its very nature....

but you seem too willing to discard basic chemistry and support wild conspiracy...

You truly are weak minded...

Voted4Reagan
09-14-2012, 08:49 PM
BTW REVEL... I know something about a Thermite Reaction you dont.... and that information was NOT found to be in existence at the WTC Site...

Lets see if you can GUESS WHAT IT IS.....

oh...I'll tell you.... When you burn Thermite it leaves a trace element and compound called BARIUM NITRATE.

None of which was found at the site on the beams in question...

You LOSE

glockmail
09-15-2012, 08:28 AM
Then your not reading my post. I'm done reading your posts man. :laugh:

revelarts
09-15-2012, 11:36 AM
BTW REVEL... I know something about a Thermite Reaction you dont.... and that information was NOT found to be in existence at the WTC Site...

Lets see if you can GUESS WHAT IT IS.....

oh...I'll tell you.... When you burn Thermite it leaves a trace element and compound called BARIUM NITRATE.

None of which was found at the site on the beams in question...

You LOSE
Not on that point
(and that wouldn't change the fact of what was found anyway A4R.)
but to your point
"There are a wide variety (http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/658208-2dvIfX/webviewable/658208.PDF) of different types (http://amazingrust.com/experiments/how_to/Thermite_pics-videos.html) of thermate, thermite, and other aluminothermic reactions. In fact all you need is a metal oxide whose metal is lower in the reactivity series than aluminium to create such a reaction. As the aluminium steals the oxygen from the oxide.
Iron is the most common form of aluminothermic reaction, this is known as thermite.

So finding barium nitrate in spheres is not at all necessary for a thermate reaction.
Finding aluminium oxide and iron or other metal as a single sphere is."

aboutime
09-15-2012, 03:12 PM
I'm done reading your posts man. :laugh:


glockmail I agree with you. Attempting to add anything to this thread, based on the wishes, and whims of some really sick people, can only be compared to taking part in an ANARCHIST CONVENTION, where the latest, and greatest EXPLOSIVE VESTS are being demonstrated...ONE TIME.

Voted4Reagan
09-15-2012, 05:05 PM
uh, contaminated with Commercial grade explosive nano-thermite?
That still makes no sense V4R.


"... see... like all the idiot truthers out there you ignore what happened and try to make the Crime fit the Evidence."
That's quite a statement.

"Ignore what happened... " but what happened IS part of "the evidence" right?
"... and try to make the crime fit the evidence...",
Sooo the official story makes the Crime NOT fit the evidence i guess.
Well that's sort of what i've been saying. The official story doesn't cover all the evidence.

we agree.

You do realize that the substance you are referring to...the RED SUBSTANCE was not THERMITE...But simply the RED PAINT that was on many of the Structural beams when the Tower was built.... right? My Friends Father helped BUILD the WTC...so I am sure he knows the color.

Your Kook theories are wearing very thin sir.... Time to get off the Truther Bandwagon and come back to reality...

revelarts
09-15-2012, 07:37 PM
You do realize that the substance you are referring to...the RED SUBSTANCE was not THERMITE...But simply the RED PAINT that was on many of the Structural beams when the Tower was built.... right? My Friends Father helped BUILD the WTC...so I am sure he knows the color.

Your Kook theories are wearing very thin sir.... Time to get off the Truther Bandwagon and come back to reality...

No, the red substance was analyzed at a molecular level, there was no mistaking it for paint. It was found to be nano-thermite. However your right there was red paint on the beams and they did test some of it as well to see if it would explode or ignite, it didn't, it simply burned away to ash while the nano-thermite became incendiary/explosive.

Voted4Reagan
09-15-2012, 08:49 PM
No, the red substance was analyzed at a molecular level, there was no mistaking it for paint. It was found to be nano-thermite. However your right there was red paint on the beams and they did test some of it as well to see if it would explode or ignite, it didn't, it simply burned away to ash while the nano-thermite became incendiary/explosive.

What is the LINK for the STUDY so that I and everyone else here can review this Document.

Also

How did they DETONATE the Thermite you say was there?

How did they hide the planting of it from 60,000 office workers in both towers?

How is it that NOBODY has corroborated any of these claims saying they were involved?

The Conspiracy you are trying to paint would involve...

The entire NYC Police Department (39000 people)

The NYC Fire Department (16000 people)

The entire Workforce in the WTC (60,000 + People)

The Government of the City of New York (100,000+ People)

The Government of NY State (100,000+ People)

The Mayor

The City Council

5 Borough Presidents

20 + County Executives

The Ny/NJ/CT Court Systems

The United States Military

The President and Congress of the United States (From 2001 - Present)

and I could go on and on with all the people youd need to have on board to cover up something like this....

You STILL have not addressed and basic questions... you throw up walls of words with un-cited, non verified and unreliable sources from 3rd hand websites and you STILL cant even provide links to the STUDIES you say you have knowledge of...

All you have is YOU TUBE and TRUTHER WEBSITES while you throw out the logical well thought out discoveries of the greatest forensic scientists in the world because somebody THINKS they saw something different or funny.

So anwer all of the issues I brought up in the above paragraphs...answer all of them....

I cant wait to see what you have to say.... because when TRUTHERS are asked for ANSWERS all they do is deflect and throw out more Conspiracy theories...

Which is what you are doing...

We're waiting
\

revelarts
09-15-2012, 10:04 PM
What is the LINK for the STUDY so that I and everyone else here can review this Document.

Also

How did they DETONATE the Thermite you say was there?


here's the actual paper written by the European science group
http://www.benthamscience.com/open/t...001/7TOCPJ.SGM (http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM)


here's the intro

<tbody>




</tbody>

[DOI: 10.2174/1874412500902010007]
Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe
Niels H. Harrit, Jeffrey Farrer, Steven E. Jones Kevin R. Ryan, Frank M. Legge, Daniel Farnsworth, Gregg Roberts, James R. Gourley and Bradley R. Larsen Pp 7-31

"We have discovered distinctive red/gray chips in all the samples we have studied of the dust produced by the destruction of the World Trade Center. Examination of four of these samples, collected from separate sites, is reported in this paper. These red/gray chips show marked similarities in all four samples. One sample was collected by a Manhattan resident about ten minutes after the collapse of the second WTC Tower, two the next day, and a fourth about a week later. The properties of these chips were analyzed using optical microscopy, scanning electron microscopy (SEM), X-ray energy dispersive spectroscopy (XEDS), and differential scanning calorimetry (DSC). The red material contains grains approximately 100 nm across which are largely iron oxide, while aluminum is contained in tiny plate-like structures. Separation of components using methyl ethyl ketone demonstrated that elemental aluminum is present. The iron oxide and aluminum are intimately mixed in the red material. When ignited in a DSC device the chips exhibit large but narrow exotherms occurring at approximately 430 °C, far below the normal ignition temperature for conventional thermite. Numerous iron-rich spheres are clearly observed in the residue following the ignition of these peculiar red/gray chips. The red portion of these chips is found to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic."

The paper ends with this sentence: “Based on these observations, we conclude that the red layer of the red/gray chips we have discovered in the WTC dust is active, unreacted thermitic material, incorporating nanotechnology, and is a highly energetic pyrotechnic or explosive material.”

here's the link to the PDF
http://www.benthamscience.com/open/t...002/7TOCPJ.pdf (http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.pdf)



How did they hide the planting of it from 60,000 office workers in both towers?
How is it that NOBODY has corroborated any of these claims saying they were involved?
The Conspiracy you are trying to paint would involve...
The entire NYC Police Department (39000 people)
The NYC Fire Department (16000 people)
The entire Workforce in the WTC (60,000 + People)
The Government of the City of New York (100,000+ People)
The Government of NY State (100,000+ People)
The Mayor
The City Council
5 Borough Presidents
20 + County Executives
The Ny/NJ/CT Court Systems
The United States Military
The President and Congress of the United States (From 2001 - Present)
and I could go on and on with all the people youd need to have on board to cover up something like this....

Not really, who wants to believe something like this. But the 1st question is why is this material in the dust? Just getting people to acknowledge the facts seems hard enough with proof in hand. Unraveling the rest should follow that.

Gaffer
09-15-2012, 11:45 PM
Rev you didn't answer any of his requests. And samples collected by "someone" and studied by a european science group does not sound like credible proof of anything.

Voted4Reagan
09-16-2012, 05:06 AM
Rev you didn't answer any of his requests. And samples collected by "someone" and studied by a european science group does not sound like credible proof of anything.

Gaffer.... Right now REV knows his argument is toast... He's just doing the only thing he can and not answer any of the Questions...

TRUTHERS are Fucking Morons in this department... They throw away Logic and rely on YOU TUBE to prove their point...

Until REV answers the questions I have posed I am done with him...see.. his argument has been shown to have MANY holes...

Just like the ones in his head... They are EMPTY.


See...BENTHAM PUBLISHERS WITHDREW THE ARTICLE BACK IN 2011... the "The Open Chemical Physics Journal" No longer exists... There is an open Physical Chemistry Journal but the Thermite paper was withdrawn....

GAME....SET ......MATCH

Conspiracy Debunked.... What a HOAX

BENTAM is little more then the YOUTUBE of online Publishing.... Anyone can get pretty much anything published there...

Thats why it's ONLINE PUBLISHING.

and... for all we know...REV wrote the article and faked all the Data himself...

Voted4Reagan
09-16-2012, 05:49 AM
Folks... anytime someone like REVELARTS Provides a link to an OPEN PUBLISHING SITE it means the article was put forth by UNVERIFIED SOURCES and the Claims are Dubious at best.

There is SOME good content... but the one REVELARTS used was pulled YEARS AGO because it was found to be PAINT and NOT THERMITE that was discovered on the beams.

That is why he only linked gave a PDF Link... see...REV is trying to hide the real TRUTH about his supposed RESEARCH...

My argument against Rev proves 2 things...

1. The WTC was destroyed by 2 large passenger planes

2. TRUTHERS (LIKE REVELARTS) are fucking idiot morons that live in their mothers basement, looking for Black Helicopters from Area 51 to come Rectally Probe them while they wear Tinfoil Hats to try and Hide.... IN OTHER WORDS...

TRUTHERS ARE FUCKING IDIOTS THAT RELY ON LYING TO TRY AND ADVANCE THEIR CRACKPOT AND EASILY DEBUNKED THEORIES..

Rev... the Aliens are waiting for you... go put on your KY JELLY ....I hear they're using the Big Probe on Idiots like you...

Case Closed....

revelarts
09-16-2012, 08:50 AM
OK anyway,
I'm done here, but let me be clear as to what i've tried to point out.

1. There was found commercial grade explosive/incendiary material in the WTC dust by multiple scientist and confirmed independently by others.
There's no good reason for it to be there.
They ask that others preform the test as well.
If you watched the videos you'd know the researchers say it may have been used in combo with other elements to produce the final results.

2. That there are many eyewitness , NYFD (some with explosives training bkgds) and others who reported flashes of light and sound of explosions consistent with building demolitions. And there are other explosion reports on the lower levels including the basement levels well before and then immediately preceding/during the final collapses.

Seem to me enough there to make one think at the very least we should consider there may have been at least A bomb or 2 in the building as well.
I'm not emotionally wedded to any particular final view of a complete picture, there are way to many speculations and assured assumptions made outside of the evidence for my taste made by all sides. At this point it seems to me that the much reviled and hated "truthers" have added to some of the softer info they have presented a few documented wedges that can't honestly be blown off. Enough to put me over the line.

Others disagree with me, surprise surprise.

Voted4Reagan
09-17-2012, 07:12 AM
OK anyway,
I'm done here, but let me be clear as to what i've tried to point out.

1. There was found commercial grade explosive/incendiary material in the WTC dust by multiple scientist and confirmed independently by others.

Please show us a LINK other then the one you have already provided which was shown to be a FABRICATION that proves this assertion.

There's no good reason for it to be there.
They ask that others preform the test as well.
If you watched the videos you'd know the researchers say it may have been used in combo with other elements to produce the final results.

2. That there are many eyewitness , NYFD (some with explosives training bkgds) and others who reported flashes of light and sound of explosions consistent with building demolitions. And there are other explosion reports on the lower levels including the basement levels well before and then immediately preceding/during the final collapses.

Not True...I was there for the ENTIRE PERIOD OF TIME and for 72 Hours AFTER the collapse. Outside of the Transformers for the Electrical substations blowing up there were NO EXPLOSIVES that were detonated. Please feel free to show us FORENSIC EVIDENCE that PROVES that Explosives of any kind were used... and not the BENTHAM Report that I already proved was false.

Seem to me enough there to make one think at the very least we should consider there may have been at least A bomb or 2 in the building as well.

There wasnt.... as much as you want to believe there was... The Impact of the planes was the equivalent of a 1.8 Kiloton Explosion. That certainly was enough to bring down the Towers..


I'm not emotionally wedded to any particular final view of a complete picture, there are way to many speculations and assured assumptions made outside of the evidence for my taste made by all sides. At this point it seems to me that the much reviled and hated "truthers" have added to some of the softer info they have presented a few documented wedges that can't honestly be blown off. Enough to put me over the line.

Why do you keep putting forth CONJECTURE and Unsubstantiated Information as FACT? All your arguments were debunked in short order... Are you that desperate to believe that the Government was (and still is) behind the attacks? If so...please seek immediate psychiatric help.

Others disagree with me, surprise surprise.

You can Run Away now...I think the Majority of people here will agree that I destroyed your Argument and your information.... Maybe Jafar and Abso will tell you what you want to hear.... I WON'T

jimnyc
09-23-2012, 04:12 PM
Jim can point you to them better than anyone, he's got a whole bunch of sites he listed a long time ago while debunking this whole argument. As soon as he gets over his withdrawals I'm sure he will provide you with all the links you can handle and more.

Anyone is free to look into the one on one debate section in this forum and read the debate I had with Sertes. While somethings will never be believed by some, and much evidence is subjective - there is literally MOUNTAINS of irrefutable evidence that the named Muslims were involved, they flew the jets that said were flown, they trained for these flights here in the USA and there were eyewitnesses that saw and or worked with these Muslims prior to 9/11. Then there is also mountains of forensic evidence to backup the official version, if anyone is interested in reading nearly 1,000 pages of a report - WHICH I DID. If you look at it objectively when reading, one would have no alternative but to admit that at a very minimum that 30-40% of it is solid and backed up with fact.

Then you move on to the conspiracies. NONE of what is said is based in fact. There IS NO proof that thermite was EVER used to destroy beams. There IS NO evidence of a SINGLE CHARGE installed in any of the 3 buildings which would have been necessary to bring down the building. Thousands of charges and prior cutting and hole drilling would have been necessary prior to that day in order to have it fall in it's footprint. And people say that since it did, that alone is proof - nevermind that the NIST completely explained the pancake collapse theory here and it's backed up by actual experts in the field - not 9/11 truthers/scholars and all that other crap, mostly made up of people with degress that have NOTHING to do with engineering.

People say "Oh, a steel framed building has never been burnt and destroyed by fire before. This might be true, but know steel framed building was ever hit by a 757 carrying a full payload of jet fuel before either - traveling at approximately 600mph. This started a "perfect firestorm" which destroyed the trusses from the crash and melted the fireproofing and had the steel frame actually bend. Once bent, an entire floor collapsing upon another is very easy to see. But what we had here was approximately 20 stories doing this at the same time. When they finally gave, the pancake theory brought them down, one on top of the other. The NIST report explains better how the force of the collapsing floors caused the small smoke billows pushing out windows many floors below the building in the midst of collapsing, while the truthers will have you believe that these are charges going off. Also, don't look at the man behind the curtain, which is compromised of THOUSANDS of men on the ground and BEYOND THOUSANDS of hours scraping through every single inch of the recovered scrap. Now ask me, how many charges, wires or anything related to incendiary devices were found? NONE. not one single thing was EVER recovered to support the ridiculous theory that the building was imploded.

And thermite, sorry, but trying reading the experts reports of what was actually burning and the chemicals involved. Pure thermite was NOT ever once found. Simply chemical compounds from a mixture of metals and burning jet fuel is all that was discovered. It would have been easily proven if it existed and was used to cut beams. I remember when the truthers ran around with the picture of a beam cut in almost a perfect 45 degree angle, they thought they hit paydirt and ran around with it as if it were the proof everyone was waiting for. Then I produced a video, which was CLEARLY the same beam, but intact, and a video was taken as this beam was cut for removal, leaving the 45 degree angle. Oddly enough, I never heard about that beam again from the truthers.

Take the time to actually do the research. Just don't listen to another site, or simply guess at something you literally know nothing about. DO THE LEG WORK as I have done, then come back with actual PROOF, not theory, and hand it to us. Because if someone finds outright proof, they'll be the first in 11 years to have done so. The evidence which is literal proof backing up the work being done by Muslims, supported by Bin Laden, using hijacked Jets, hitting 3 targets and missing a 4th, buildings coming down and a hole ending up in a pentagon, endless airplane parts and bodies found at the pentagon, while some dolts will try to tell you it was actually a missile (yeah, disregard all those Boeing parts, parts with the carriers name still on it, and body parts galore, that's normal from a missile!).

Bottom line, there IS in fact TONS of proof which CANNOT be refuted, but one is welcome to say they don't believe it. Some people don't believe me when I say 2 + 2 = 4 either, but a fact is a fact regardless of what some may think. Some, admittedly, cannot be 100% proven, but given the things that can, the explanations make complete sense to me. And also given the fact that the alternative has NO PROOF at all but garbage. "Oh, she said this" or "This one heard this" or "This never happened before" or "The firemen were overheard saying this".

If you're not willing to take the days and perhaps month long effort to delve into the actual data, and then come back with legit feedback, then save the damn Youtube videos, hearsay and theories for others that might be more gullible. I've more or less earned a fictional degree on this subject and I'm not going to allow theory to sway me over the countless hours of actual PROOF and EVIDENCE I have seen and read about. But to each their own, if it makes a nutter happy to think that it's all a farce, or perhaps that a government did it and the friendly Muslims were setup, so be it. And the CIA made these videos of OBL, all of them? All of the audio tapes? All of the testimony from the captured terrorists and former drivers, and the ringleader of the design, and the other nitwit who tried it in 1993. Anyone thinking that every last bit of this was a grand setup really needs to go outside, take a really deep breath, come back in, sit down at your computer for a month and read EVERYTHING. then come back here with irrefutable proof of SOME evidence that proves what we have been told to be wrong. I'll save you the time, you can't do it, unless you want to rest your hat on theory, which is very sad to this logical person.

aboutime
09-23-2012, 04:50 PM
How sad it is for not only the people of the United States, but the entire World who must resort to top level entertainment through the normal, expected, predictable comedy of that small number of Human's who must find conspiracy theories almost everywhere, every day, to entertain their cynical, eroded brain matter that forces them to NEED, and WANT everything to be suspect...merely because THEY SAY SO.

(For the English, and grammar cops out there who laugh at that long, periodless, comma-less line above. Nobody cares what you think)

None-the-less. I look at this kind of blatant hyperbole as nothing more than a massive need, by those who espouse such theories, than a need for those 15 minutes of fame...IN THEIR OWN, twisted, sometimes totally cryptic imaginations to solve their loneliness as part of the human race where others MUST ALWAYS laugh at them.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
09-23-2012, 05:02 PM
glockmail I agree with you. Attempting to add anything to this thread, based on the wishes, and whims of some really sick people, can only be compared to taking part in an ANARCHIST CONVENTION, where the latest, and greatest EXPLOSIVE VESTS are being demonstrated...ONE TIME.

My friend, I agree that the accusation that those buildings were aided in being destroyed by exsplosives being used is absolutely wrong but I do not agree that such actions are beyond our government doing to push its agenda. No sir, I do not because our government has become a monster, one that seeks ever greater and dictatorial power! I know this is true and mistrust of our federal government is wise and prudent IMHO. FAST AND FURIOUS by itself should verify that as reasonable, logic awareness and prudent thinking. Our government seeks to take away our liberties and destroy our Constitution. We must remember that the power in the government changes every 4 to 8 years!
Our current government is headed by a damn traitor. I have zero doubt about that . History, if he is defeated and tossed out of office in November , will likely in about 50 to 60 years start to reveal just how big of a damn traitor the bastard is IMHO. Sure, its possible even that it never dares to reveal that treason and its scope for it involves far more than just obama! -Tyr

aboutime
09-23-2012, 08:07 PM
My friend, I agree that the accusation that those buildings were aided in being destroyed by exsplosives being used is absolutely wrong but I do not agree that such actions are beyond our government doing to push its agenda. No sir, I do not because our government has become a monster, one that seeks ever greater and dictatorial power! I know this is true and mistrust of our federal government is wise and prudent IMHO. FAST AND FURIOUS by itself should verify that as reasonable, logic awareness and prudent thinking. Our government seeks to take away our liberties and destroy our Constitution. We must remember that the power in the government changes every 4 to 8 years!
Our current government is headed by a damn traitor. I have zero doubt about that . History, if he is defeated and tossed out of office in November , will likely in about 50 to 60 years start to reveal just how big of a damn traitor the bastard is IMHO. Sure, its possible even that it never dares to reveal that treason and its scope for it involves far more than just obama! -Tyr


We are all free to believe whatever we want. But, I guess I've been around too long to think I can be lured, or fooled into thinking such things as being actual. I remember the very same kinds of endless conspiracy accusations against LBJ, and members of congress right after JFK's assassination, and till today. Which also should now include...the accusations about Neil Armstrong's famous ONE SMALL STEP speech...as some still insist...that took place on a Movie Lot in Hollywood.

I do however believe, as you, and others do. That ALL POLITICIANS, no matter what party they are from. ARE FIRST....CROOKED. And WE THE PEOPLE...have no say in anything they do...except...Bending Over, and yelling THANK YOU....DO IT AGAIN.