I take my stand, you?

[Missileman]

So I'm clear on this point .. are you saying that Christianity is dying a death in America (or under severe threat) ?

If so .. doesn't that mean that its foundling principles are also under attack ? And .. if 'yes' to that .. aren't you spurred on to want to defend them ?

If 'no' .. WHY NOT ?

Quote the parts of the Bible that discuss Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Speech, checks and balances within government, and the rest of the Constitution. When you can't, explain how then you believe America's founding principles were Christian.

[Missileman]

Your post



Not the first post where you tried to dismiss Muslims from comitting acts of violence due to their religious beliefs

Please stop digging MM - the hole is deep enough for you already

Read much? I clearly wrote that their religion DOESN'T justify their actions. Is that all you have?

[aboutime]

Posts such as this really 'raise' the tone of meaningful discussion ... :whistling2:



Drummond. Forget this. It merely proves that Assholes always must accuse others in order to hide their own SPHINCTER talents, much like Missileman has.

[red states rule]

Read much? I clearly wrote that their religion DOESN'T justify their actions. Is that all you have?

and we have this

Please stop MM. I will need to call 911 to pull you out of the hole you are digging




Thanks Kathianne...you're the first to actually answer my question.

And you understand the point I'm making. Not that I believe it's the case, but I would further argue that if it turns out the Islamic fundies have it right, that Allah is God and the Koran's passages about killing infidels were divinely inspired and speak to Allah's wishes, then not only do they believe they're acting morally, but if as it's been suggested, morals are derived from god, then they are indeed acting morally.

Tyr's of the opinion that Christian morality is the only valid morality because it's what he believes. He doesn't seem to grasp that Muslims hold the exact same opinion of their morality and up until the day that one or both or none are proven real, they have EQUAL claim to the moral high ground.

This is not an indorsement of Islam nor a knock on Christianity. I don't believe in either.

[Drummond]

The US couldn't win the hearts and minds of Iraqis with tens of thousands of boots on the ground. Your claim re Libya is laughable.

I wonder which Iraqis you have in mind ?

Is it your contention - for example - that they have no appreciation of the introduction of democracy there ? If it wasn't (chiefly) the US who were responsible for that, who do you think WAS ?

http://www.divinecaroline.com/33/108573-new-government-iraq


After nearly a year fraught with political infighting, Iraq finally has a new government.


The Iraqi parliament Tuesday voted in Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki’s government, even though some vacancies remain.

The long-awaited legislative action comes more than nine months after a hotly disputed national election that threatened to inflame the country’s deep sectarian tensions.

Within moments of the announcement, celebratory gunfire broke out across the capital.

This is a “day of pride” for the Iraqi people, al-Maliki said on Monday, referencing the difficulty associated with the process of assembling a new governing coalition.

Forming a genuine “national partnership” is “a very difficult and tough process because you need to find a place in the government for everyone who participated in the elections and everyone who won,” he noted.


As for my claim on Libya being 'laughable' .. WHY ? I think my point was perfectly reasonable. Libya had a power vacuum in the making, for a substantial time the two sides in that civil war split the running of Libya in two .. considering how dependent the rebels were on Western air support to make the advances they needed to, it has to follow that the West had great potential there for filling that power vacuum with a preence of its own making.

But, nothing of the sort occurred.

How do you explain this, if your assertion is 'correct' ?

[Missileman]

and we have this

Please stop MM. I will need to call 911 to pull you out of the hole you are digging

Again you display an inability to read. Did you somehow miss "Not that I believe it's the case" ?

I was having an argument with Tyr about his use of his beliefs as an argument against another's beliefs.

Keep throwing shit on the wall...so far it's made of teflon.

[Dilloduck]

So I'm clear on this point .. are you saying that Christianity is dying a death in America (or under severe threat) ?

If so .. doesn't that mean that its foundling principles are also under attack ? And .. if 'yes' to that .. aren't you spurred on to want to defend them ?

If 'no' .. WHY NOT ?

No I'm not-----I'm saying Christianity isn't what symbolizes western culture. Western culture has rounded the curve and is now secular.

[Drummond]

Drummond. Forget this. It merely proves that Assholes always must accuse others in order to hide their own SPHINCTER talents, much like Missileman has.

Good point, well taken (concerning the poster I was addressing previously) ...

[Dilloduck]

I wonder which Iraqis you have in mind ?

Is it your contention - for example - that they have no appreciation of the introduction of democracy there ? If it wasn't (chiefly) the US who were responsible for that, who do you think WAS ?

http://www.divinecaroline.com/33/108573-new-government-iraq



As for my claim on Libya being 'laughable' .. WHY ? I think my point was perfectly reasonable. Libya had a power vacuum in the making, for a substantial time the two sides in that civil war split the running of Libya in two .. considering how dependent the rebels were on Western air support to make the advances they needed to, it has to follow that the West had great potential there for filling that power vacuum with a preence of its own making.

But, nothing of the sort occurred.

How do you explain this, if your assertion is 'correct' ?




Are you kidding me----America turn Libya into a western culture ? :laugh2: and citing Divinecaroline ???

[Drummond]

No I'm not-----I'm saying Christianity isn't what symbolizes western culture. Western culture has rounded the curve and is now secular.

H'mm. So, you're saying that America doesn't represent a Western culture, then ?

I suggest you take that up with the originators of this link ..

http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/the-bible-and-government

Aren't America's laws based on Christianity, Dilloduck ? Because the evidence to the contrary, even to someone like myself as a person from a different country, is surely overwhelming ???

I grant you that there are Western societies prone to secularism .. and that damage has been done to their legal systems courtesy of secularist interests (the intervention of the Labour Party in the UK to pass certain laws that Muslims can use for their own ends comes to mind .. for the sake of 'evening up' religions).

But I still see America as a world leader. For your conclusion to be valid, you'd need to prove to me that her very soul had died a death.

[Dilloduck]

H'mm. So, you're saying that America doesn't represent a Western culture, then ?

I suggest you take that up with the originators of this link ..

http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/the-bible-and-government

Aren't America's laws based on Christianity, Dilloduck ? Because the evidence to the contrary, even to someone like myself as a person from a different country, is surely overwhelming ???

I grant you that there are Western societies prone to secularism .. and that damage has been done to their legal systems courtesy of secularist interests (the intervention of the Labour Party in the UK to pass certain laws that Muslims can use for their own ends comes to mind .. for the sake of 'evening up' religions.

But I still see America as a world leader. For your conclusion to be valid, you'd need to prove to me that her very soul had died a death.

dramatic---hopefully you understand that America does not even represent all of western culture. Our religious leaders don't call the shots anymore--sorry to disappoint you. We worship money, power and status now.

[Drummond]

Are you kidding me----America turn Libya into a western culture ? :laugh2: and citing Divinecaroline ???

You appear to have lost the plot, Dilloduck. I was saying that there had been NO intervention in Libya of the kind that would've backed up your earlier assertion about Western, and Christian, intentions globally.

The attempt would've been made, had you been correct. There WAS a power vacuum in Libya. Your assessment of the success (or otherwise) is pretty much beside the point, if your claim had had any basis to it.

After all - consider the other side of the coin. Didn't Russia try to turn Afghanistan into a puppet Communist-friendly State ?

[Dilloduck]

You appear to have lost the plot, Dilloduck. I was saying that there had been NO intervention in Libya of the kind that would've backed up your earlier assertion about Western, and Christian, intentions globally.

The attempt would've been made, had you been correct. There WAS a power vacuum in Libya. Your assessment of the success (or otherwise) is pretty much beside the point, if your claim had had any basis to it.

After all - consider the other side of the coin. Didn't Russia try to turn Afghanistan into a puppet Communist-friendly State ?

No--they tried to kick thier asses.

[Drummond]

dramatic---hopefully you understand that America does not even represent all of western culture. Our religious leaders don't call the shots anymore--sorry to disappoint you. We worship money, power and status now.

Granted that as I'm not American, I can't speak with total confidence on this. Nonetheless, and as my link surely showed, your laws still have a Christian basis to them. They are meant to follow, and promote, Christian values. I fail to see how this is less than clear.

And I tell you this. In America, for a Presidential candidate to promote his Christian bona fides can still be a vote WINNER .. certainly, there have been candidates unafraid to declare their beliefs. Contrast that with Tony Blair, who tried to HIDE his own ... he even had a spin-doctor declare to the media that Blair 'doesn't do God'.

Accepted that America doesn't represent all of Western culture, nonetheless, it is the leading nation amongst them. That has to count for something !

[Drummond]

No--they tried to kick thier asses.

???????

Whose ?

I thought Babrak Karmal was the leader of a puppet regime installed by Russia ? Yes .. the Mujahiddeen fought that Government, and Soviet occupation, tooth-and-nail. But that's beside the point. My point is that Russia made the attempt, even with a country like Afghanistan, to bring it into their Communist 'world'.

Now .. why, then, would Christians - IF your older assertion had any basis to it, which of course it doesn't - back off from trying their luck with Libya, which as a landmass possessed few of the geographical handicaps to any invading force that Afghanistan offered ?

[Dilloduck]

???????

Whose ?

I thought Babrak Karmal was the leader of a puppet regime installed by Russia ? Yes .. the Mujahiddeen fought that Government, and Soviet occupation, tooth-and-nail. But that's beside the point. My point is that Russia made the attempt, even with a country like Afghanistan, to bring it into their Communist 'world'.

Now .. why, then, would Christians - IF your older assertion had any basis to it, which of course it doesn't - back off from trying their luck with Libya, which as a landmass possessed few of the geographical handicaps to any invading force that Afghanistan offered ?

???
America doesn't have a Christian army nor fight in the name of Christianity. What the hell are you thinking. ?

[Dilloduck]

Granted that as I'm not American, I can't speak with total confidence on this. Nonetheless, and as my link surely showed, your laws still have a Christian basis to them. They are meant to follow, and promote, Christian values. I fail to see how this is less than clear.

And I tell you this. In America, for a Presidential candidate to promote his Christian bona fides can still be a vote WINNER .. certainly, there have been candidates unafraid to declare their beliefs. Contrast that with Tony Blair, who tried to HIDE his own ... he even had a spin-doctor declare to the media that Blair 'doesn't do God'.

Accepted that America doesn't represent all of Western culture, nonetheless, it is the leading nation amongst them. That has to count for something !

Are you familiar with the separation of church and state ?

[Drummond]

???
America doesn't have a Christian army nor fight in the name of Christianity. What the hell are you thinking. ?

This is growing tiresome.

You originally posted ...


Our civilization will do what it has to in an effort to destroy their civilization also. If you don't think there is an effort underway to spread western civilization all over the world you're crazy. Are you afraid they are winning ?

What was my reply ? I replied by saying that Western civilisation was primarily Christian.

And I am RIGHT.

Now, you can argue about what 'name' America fights for. But the facts of the matter are, Dilloduck, that America is a leading Western culture, AND, its core values - as its laws prove - are definably Christian. The Christian sense of right v wrong certainly dominates your laws, as it also does (mostly) in other Western cultures.

When actions such as the Iraq War of 2003 are initiated, the thinking is not that troops are there to institute Sharia Law (!!!), nor Buddhism, nor Hinduism, nor any other 'ism' that's anti-Christian. If there's any point to armies fighting from the West, this point is NOT to advance the cause of Islam !!!

That said ... even though those fighting from the West have (basically) a Christian grounding, theirs is nonetheless not an intention to CONQUER, or DOMINATE. No, they're there to right wrongs. Such as, to set Iraq upon a path post-Saddam, one which introduced democracy and true self-determination. Or in Afghanistan, to neutralise its terrorism problem sufficiently to allow the 'locals' to then take over the job.

Righting wrongs, Dilloduck ... a far cry from 'Our civilization will do what it has to in an effort to destroy their civilization also', as you absurdly stated. But contrast this with Islam, which does whatever it can to spread its influence .. by terrorism, by mass immigration, by dominating wherever it establishes a firm presence.

Islam is the aggressor. Its opposition defends against that aggression. And ... we have every right to follow through with that defence in terms which makes it effective.

[Abbey Marie]

What we justify as acceptable to do the Muslims just for being Muslim, we will eventually do to others. Muslims -> Illegals -> Immigrants -> Outsiders . No one has said what one should do with this anti-Muslim information. It's like accelerating a vehicle without regard to the steering. You'll eventually have a crash. In WWII prejudice was managed to get people to accept the sacrifice associated with the war. Are you fanning prejudice so people will accept present and future TSA powers? I don't see any disagreement with some of the arson committed against Muslims. What about housing and employment discrimination against Muslims? Is that OK?


Quite a slippery slope you are predicting there. You must think so little of the American people and our government.

There is no evidence to believe any of what you say will happen. But I suppose if any of those groups blow up a skyscraper or three on our soil, kill our Diplomats, etc., etc., all bets are off.

[aboutime]

Are you familiar with the separation of church and state ?



WRONG AGAIN Dilloduck. I dare you to show all of us...anywhere in the U.S. Constitution, where those words 'separation of church and state' appear.

That line is something liberal, uninformed, people use that has no Legal bearing, anywhere but in Liberal Talking Points.

Here's a link you might read: http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/who2.htm

[Dilloduck]

WRONG AGAIN Dilloduck. I dare you to show all of us...anywhere in the U.S. Constitution, where those words 'separation of church and state' appear.

That line is something liberal, uninformed, people use that has no Legal bearing, anywhere but in Liberal Talking Points.

Here's a link you might read: http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/who2.htm

easy boy===I made no claim it was in the Constitution and our military has no official religion.

[Dilloduck]

This is growing tiresome.

You originally posted ...



What was my reply ? I replied by saying that Western civilisation was primarily Christian.

And I am RIGHT.

Now, you can argue about what 'name' America fights for. But the facts of the matter are, Dilloduck, that America is a leading Western culture, AND, its core values - as its laws prove - are definably Christian. The Christian sense of right v wrong certainly dominates your laws, as it also does (mostly) in other Western cultures.

When actions such as the Iraq War of 2003 are initiated, the thinking is not that troops are there to institute Sharia Law (!!!), nor Buddhism, nor Hinduism, nor any other 'ism' that's anti-Christian. If there's any point to armies fighting from the West, this point is NOT to advance the cause of Islam !!!

That said ... even though those fighting from the West have (basically) a Christian grounding, theirs is nonetheless not an intention to CONQUER, or DOMINATE. No, they're there to right wrongs. Such as, to set Iraq upon a path post-Saddam, one which introduced democracy and true self-determination. Or in Afghanistan, to neutralise its terrorism problem sufficiently to allow the 'locals' to then take over the job.

Righting wrongs, Dilloduck ... a far cry from 'Our civilization will do what it has to in an effort to destroy their civilization also', as you absurdly stated. But contrast this with Islam, which does whatever it can to spread its influence .. by terrorism, by mass immigration, by dominating wherever it establishes a firm presence.

Islam is the aggressor. Its opposition defends against that aggression. And ... we have every right to follow through with that defence in terms which makes it effective.

The US didn't go anywhere to stop the spread of Islam. We went to protect our nations interests--not our churches.

[Dilloduck]

Whitman (2009) observes that in many European countries, the state has, over the centuries, taken over the social roles of the church, leading to a generally secularized public sphere.[1] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-0)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state

[aboutime]

easy boy===I made no claim it was in the Constitution and our military has no official religion.



If what you said is so. Why then, did you need to ask the question in the first place????

[Drummond]

The US didn't go anywhere to stop the spread of Islam. We went to protect our nations interests--not our churches.

Well, how few churches would there have been to protect, anyway ? In case you hadn't noticed, Muslims tend not to be very tolerant of churches springing up in the Middle East !! [Though, of course, they expect and even DEMAND toleration of mosques in Western nations !]

But let me remind you, again, of this previous posting of yours --


'Our civilization will do what it has to in an effort to destroy their civilization also'

This is something of a contrast compared with the post you've just put on this thread, now, isn't it ?

I suggest you give your posting some thought, and decide which of these diverging positions (if either) you want to stick with.

Flip a coin, if it'll help ....

[Dilloduck]

Well, how few churches would there have been to protect, anyway ? In case you hadn't noticed, Muslims tend not to be very tolerant of churches springing up in the Middle East !! [Though, of course, they expect and even DEMAND toleration of mosques in Western nations !]

But let me remind you, again, of this previous posting of yours --



This is something of a contrast compared with the post you've just put on this thread, now, isn't it ?

I suggest you give your posting some thought, and decide which of these diverging positions (if either) you want to stick with.

Flip a coin, if it'll help ....

Civilizations have always fought to defend themselves however that doesn't NOT mean America fights to protect Christianity. We don't even have a state religion as you do. If anything the rights of Christians have been decreased over the last century. In America you can pee on Jesus and Christians can't do a thing about it.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

So I'm clear on this point .. are you saying that Christianity is dying a death in America (or under severe threat) ?

If so .. doesn't that mean that its foundling principles are also under attack ? And .. if 'yes' to that .. aren't you spurred on to want to defend them ?

If 'no' .. WHY NOT ?

Why not indeed!!!?????? All true Americans want to maintain our founding principles.. --Tyr

[Dilloduck]

Why not indeed!!!?????? All true Americans want to maintain our founding principles.. --Tyr

Which includes the right of mulsims to worship as they please and all other rights guaranteed to Americans.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Civilizations have always fought to defend themselves however that doesn't NOT mean America fights to protect Christianity. We don't even have a state religion as you do. If anything the rights of Christians have been decreased over the last century. In America you can pee on Jesus and Christians can't do a thing about it.

Yet you defend Islamists right to do things about it when they feel their religion has been attacked.
Why do you feel they should have the right but Christians should not ? That America should not?

[Dilloduck]

Yet you defend Islamists right to do things about it when they feel their religion has been attacked.
Why do you feel they should have the right but Christians should not ? That America should not?

Never have I defended Mulsims committing a crime.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Which includes the right of mulsims to worship as they please and all other rights guaranteed to Americans.

No sir, you are wrong , it does not if worshipping as they please includes murdering, bombing, illegal acts and treason.

The greatest opposition to Islam is its violence which the Constitution in no way protects!--Tyr

[Dilloduck]

No sir, you are wrong , it does not if worshipping as they please includes murdering, bombing, illegal acts and treason.

The greatest opposition to Islam is its violence which the Constitution in no way protects!--Tyr

as long as they obey our laws they can worship as they please

[Drummond]

Civilizations have always fought to defend themselves however that doesn't NOT mean America fights to protect Christianity. We don't even have a state religion as you do. If anything the rights of Christians have been decreased over the last century. In America you can pee on Jesus and Christians can't do a thing about it.

See Tyr's thoroughly laudible post. I think it's a good answer to you.

My understanding, and your laws certainly back this, is that America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles (.. and in the days when I watched his broadcasts, I recall Bill O'Reilly saying exactly that on Fox News ..). Now, do you care about your country's soul, or don't you ?

But I will agree that Christian rights have been eroded, and continue to be. Of course, I would apply a context to that which comes from my part of the world, but here, Lefties have conspired to skew laws so that Muslims (and other ethnic minorities) have enhanced rights, at the expense of recognised Christian ones.

.. Dress codes, for example. Wear a Hijab to work, and that can be accepted. But in certain professions .. wear a Crucifix, and watch the complaints mount ..

[Dilloduck]

Mainstream Islam condemns honor killings (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Honor_killings), and leaders of the American Muslim community have unanimously condemned the practice. Members of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Council_on_American-Islamic_Relations) have condemned all honor killings as well as specific incidents.[2] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-1) Many Muslim leaders in the US say that Islam does not promote honor killings and that the practice stems from sexism and tribal behavior that predates the religion. "You're always going to get problems with chauvinism and suppressing vulnerable populations and gender discrimination," says Salam Al-Marayati, executive director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Muslim_Public_Affairs_Council).[3] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-2)
In February 2009, after the high-profile killing of Aasiya Zubair (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Aasiya_Zubair), Muslim leaders began a nationwide, unified effort entitled "Imams Speak Out: Domestic Violence Will Not Be Tolerated in Our Communities," asking all imams and religious leaders to discuss domestic violence in their weekly sermon on their Friday prayer services.[4] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-3) The group, Muslim Men Against Domestic Violence (http://www.mmada.org/), was founded soon after the murder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_States

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

as long as they obey our laws they can worship as they please

THEIR LAWS(Sharia) AND many of their religious beliefs are contrary to the principles set forth in our Constitution.
So they seek to override our laws in favor of their religious laws. We see both open and sometimes hidden efforts of them doing exactly that. That is an attack upon both our nation and our culture! Yet you defend them having that right!! They maintain no god, no authority above Allah, this can not be challenged and it directly seeks to subjugate our Constitution and laws ! Subjugate them into being destroyed completely. -Tyr

[Dilloduck]

See Tyr's thoroughly laudible post. I think it's a good answer to you.

My understanding, and your laws certainly back this, is that America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles (.. and in the days when I watched his broadcasts, I recall Bill O'Reilly saying exactly that on Fox News ..). Now, do you care about your country's soul, or don't you ?

But I will agree that Christian rights have been eroded, and continue to be. Of course, I would apply a context to that which comes from my part of the world, but here, Lefties have conspired to skew laws so that Muslims (and other ethnic minorities) have enhanced rights, at the expense of recognised Christian ones.

.. Dress codes, for example. Wear a Hijab to work, and that can be accepted. But in certain professions .. wear a Crucifix, and watch the complaints mount ..

The soul of America has no religion. Why can't you get that through your head ? The soul of America is freedom which YOU are trying to deny muslims. If you can deny one religion than you must deny them all.

[Dilloduck]

THEIR LAWS(Sharia) AND many of their religious beliefs are contrary to the principles set forth in our Constitution.
So they seek to override our laws in favor of their religious laws. We see both open and sometimes hidden efforts of them doing exactly that. That is an attack upon both our nation and our culture! Yet you defend them having that right!! They maintain no god, no authority above Allah, this can not be challenged and it directly seeks to subjugate our Constitution and laws ! Sujugate them into being destroyed completely. -Tyr

They are free to seek

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

See Tyr's thoroughly laudible post. I think it's a good answer to you.

My understanding, and your laws certainly back this, is that America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles (.. and in the days when I watched his broadcasts, I recall Bill O'Reilly saying exactly that on Fox News ..). Now, do you care about your country's soul, or don't you ?

But I will agree that Christian rights have been eroded, and continue to be. Of course, I would apply a context to that which comes from my part of the world, but here, Lefties have conspired to skew laws so that Muslims (and other ethnic minorities) have enhanced rights, at the expense of recognised Christian ones.

.. Dress codes, for example. Wear a Hijab to work, and that can be accepted. But in certain professions .. wear a Crucifix, and watch the complaints mount ..

Methinks that our friend Dillo would love to see America in the same position that Britain is in. About to go under without a fight. Unless Brits form a united opposition group very soon thats willing to actually fight that is what will happen. A pity too , because we owe them our support and our actual help to try save them.-Tyr

[Dilloduck]

Methinks that our friend Dillo would love to see America in the same position that Britain is in. About to go under without a fight. Unless Brits form a united opposition group very soon thats willing to actually fight that is what will happen. A pity too , because we owe them our support and our actual help to try save them.-Tyr

You thinking is leading you astray

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The soul of America has no religion. Why can't you get that through your head ? The soul of America is freedom which YOU are trying to deny muslims. If you can deny one religion than you must deny them all.

No, you get this thru your head--they have not the freedom to seek to destroy our freedoms in favor of their religious laws(SHARIA)! The Consitution did not write in a "suicide clause" to its VERY existence and ideals !!!
WHAT THEY SEEK IS ALLAH AS SUPREME AUTHORITY, OUR CONSTITUTION FORBIDS THAT BY ITS IDEALS, FREEDOMS AND OUR BILL OF RIGHTS.--Tyr

[aboutime]

The soul of America has no religion. Why can't you get that through your head ? The soul of America is freedom which YOU are trying to deny muslims. If you can deny one religion than you must deny them all.

Dilloduck. What you laughingly call the soul of America, as having no religion is nearly as foolishly spoken as you believe.

The soul of America. Whether people like you want to agree, or disagree does exist and is stronger than many are willing to admit.

Merely remembering History, and how the Founding Fathers...from many different religious backgrounds, formulated our nation. And even announced it as being God fearing, and based on religious beliefs must really FROST your shorts.

And you might even find disgust in how our Large, Black American population is probably the strongest portion of America that holds religion sacred as their SOUL, and backbone of enjoying their freedom, liberty, and lives in a Respectful, Serious way. Unlike those who DENY any faith, or God like subjects....which gives them excuses for violating the LAWS OF MAN...you also reject.

[Abbey Marie]

The soul of America has no religion. Why can't you get that through your head ? The soul of America is freedom which YOU are trying to deny muslims. If you can deny one religion than you must deny them all.

I guess we will find out when times get really bad. I believe that when put to the test, Christians will shine. I think Avatar sees a revival coming as well.

[Dilloduck]

Christians have no need to fear anything.

[Drummond]

THEIR LAWS(Sharia) AND many of their religious beliefs are contrary to the principles set forth in our Constitution.
So they seek to override our laws in favor of their religious laws. We see both open and sometimes hidden efforts of them doing exactly that. That is an attack upon both our nation and our culture! Yet you defend them having that right!! They maintain no god, no authority above Allah, this can not be challenged and it directly seeks to subjugate our Constitution and laws ! Subjugate them into being destroyed completely. -Tyr

:clap::clap:

... and what you're describing, Tyr, is exactly the experience of their behaviour that we've had in Britain.

I recommend that Dilloduck and others listen to the speeches (.. should I say 'rants' ?) of one Anjem Choudary, former head of 'Islam4uk' (until our authorities finally banned it). He makes it clear that Muslims only respect Sharia Law and the authority of Allah.

In case anyone is tempted to think .. 'OK, who's Choudary ? Besides, he is only one lone voice, and one thousands of miles away in the UK, so why are his rantings of any interest' .. Choudary has been interviewed by CNN and by Fox News's Sean Hannity. He's spoken of wanting Sharia Law imposed universally, i.e including in America. He is clear in his wish to see democracy done away with entirely and for Sharia Law dictates to replace it. He also tried - and, for all I know, succeeded - in arranging a Muslim protest to be held outside the White House.

... and Dilloduck .. let me ask you directly ... and I hope for a direct, clear answer. Are you a Muslim ? If you are, I think it would be helpful to us all to understand why you seem so defensive of them.

[red states rule]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_States

I remember the last time a poster here used Wikipedia as a "source" It was a Obama worshipper backing up his claim Obama has a "shitload of economic experience"

Meanwhile:

Canada: Mother's throat slit in alleged honor killing

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/13164905-canada-mothers-throat-slit-in-alleged-honour-killing


Nearly 3000 cases of ‘honour’ violence every year in the UK

http://ikwro.org.uk/2011/12/03/nearly-3000-cases-of-honour-violence-every-year-in-the-uk/

Rise in PA ‘Honor Killings’ Despite US Aid“Honor Killings” rise sharply in the Palestinian Authority, along with more US aid “designed to support strong institutions” of the PA.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/159119



Maybe you should pull your head out of the sand Dilo and take a long hard lok at what is happeneing in the real world

[Dilloduck]

I remember the last time a poster here used Wikipedia as a "source" It was a Obama worshipper backing up his claim Obama has a "shitload of economic experience"

Meanwhile:

Canada: Mother's throat slit in alleged honor killing

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/13164905-canada-mothers-throat-slit-in-alleged-honour-killing


Nearly 3000 cases of ‘honour’ violence every year in the UK

http://ikwro.org.uk/2011/12/03/nearly-3000-cases-of-honour-violence-every-year-in-the-uk/

Rise in PA ‘Honor Killings’ Despite US Aid

“Honor Killings” rise sharply in the Palestinian Authority, along with more US aid “designed to support strong institutions” of the PA.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/159119



Maybe you should pull your head out of the sand Dilo and take a long hard lok at what is happeneing in the real world

I'll take a look at what is happening in America. Honor killings are against the law. Plaintiffs may seek to change the law as we are all free to do so.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I'll take a look at what is happening in America. Honor killings are against the law. Plaintiffs may seek to change the law as we are all free to do so.

What? Change the law to allow honor killings!!?? HAVE YOU LOST YOUR FREAKING MIND!??--TYR

[Dilloduck]

What? Change the law to allow honor killings!!?? HAVE YOU LOST YOUR FREAKING MIND!??--TYR



Anyone can petition for the law to be changed now matter how unreasonable.

[Drummond]

What? Change the law to allow honor killings!!?? HAVE YOU LOST YOUR FREAKING MIND!??--TYR



Exactly !

[Drummond]

Anyone can petition for the law to be changed now matter how unreasonable.

But it's most odd that you should ever offer such a suggestion when it comes to this particular Muslim barbarism.

[Dilloduck]

How in the hell do you think abortion was legalized ? Y'all need to quit patting each other's backs and do some homework.

[Dilloduck]

But it's most odd that you should ever offer such a suggestion when it comes to this particular Muslim barbarism.

i DIDN'T offer it----I said it was possible. Seriously-----you need to make an attempt to understand what I post instead of twisting it.

[Abbey Marie]

Christians have no need to fear anything.

Wellll, that requires a separate thread on Revelation. If you believe, things will actually get very bad for those of us still here (not raptured) for several years.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Anyone can petition for the law to be changed now matter how unreasonable.

So that was what you meant. Dillo, what game are you playing here?
Why bring it up or suggest it unless you favor it or somehow think it reasonable?
Quite pretending your statements are abstracts when you are called to task on them. It clearly points to deception and dishonesty in posting when engaging it that type of discourse IMHO.-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

i DIDN'T offer it----I said it was possible. Seriously-----you need to make an attempt to understand what I post instead of twisting it.

SIR, YOU ARE DOING THE TWISTING AND ATTEMPTING THE PLAYING WITH WORDS NOT DRUMMONDS.
Thats obvious to anybody reading your posts. -Tyr

[Dilloduck]

Wellll, that requires a separate thread on Revelation. If you believe, things will actually get very bad for those of us still here (not raptured) for several years.

God is with Christians ALWAYS. I agree that it's an issue for a new thread.

[Drummond]

How in the hell do you think abortion was legalized ? Y'all need to quit patting each other's backs and do some homework.

You're now suddenly changing the subject ? Honour killings (excuse the British spelling) was what was being discussed. Quickly reviewing .. you answered a post on that subject, with ..


I'll take a look at what is happening in America. Honor killings are against the law. Plaintiffs may seek to change the law as we are all free to do so.

Your suggestion, Dilloduck, followed through with, made in answer to that subject - which earned, understandably, Tyr's incredulity.

[Drummond]

i DIDN'T offer it----I said it was possible. Seriously-----you need to make an attempt to understand what I post instead of twisting it.

I'm twisting nothing. See Tyr's posts. You did volunteer a thought to which Tyr then reacted.

[Dilloduck]

You're now suddenly changing the subject ? Honour killings (excuse the British spelling) was what was being discussed. Quickly reviewing .. you answered a post on that subject, with ..



Your suggestion, Dilloduck, followed through with, made in answer to that subject - which earned, understandably, Tyr's incredulity.

Changing the law is what was being discussed. Killing is killing----the law was challenged and abortion ( killing) was legalized. Anyone can file suit and challenge a law. I don't condone any killing.

[red states rule]

What? Change the law to allow honor killings!!?? HAVE YOU LOST YOUR FREAKING MIND!??--TYR



Tyr, before one can lose something, one needs to possess it first

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Changing the law is what was being discussed. Killing is killing----the law was challenged and abortion ( killing) was legalized. Anyone can file suit and challenge a law. I don't condone any killing.

The subject was not abortion, it was honor killings. Your suggestion clearly addressed that-HONOR KILLINGS, now you attempt to cloud the issue with abortion as a consideration..
You've been asked by Drummonds if you are of the muslim faith. How about answering that for a start?
For it may explain your rather odd behaviour.-TYR

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Tyr, before one can lose something, one needs to possess it first

:beer: :salute: :beer:...-Tyr

[red states rule]

The subject was not abortion, it was honor killings. Your suggestion clearly addressed that-HONOR KILLINGS, now you attempt to cloud the issue with abortion as a consideration..
You've been asked by Drummonds if you are of the muslim faith. How about answering that for a start?
For it may explain your rather odd behaviour.-TYR

Maybe Dillo is the kind of guy who has no issue with men using women as a punching bag. Beating up women does appeal to some men who do not have the ability to take on other men.

Perhaps Dillo is a guy who could not punch a time clock unless he had three other guys backing him up :laugh:

[Dilloduck]

Maybe Dillo is the kind of guy who has no issue with men using women as a punching bag. Beating up women does appeal to some men who do not have the ability to take on other men.

Perhaps Dillo is a guy who could not punch a time clock unless he had three other guys backing him up :laugh:

That's it---you caught me again. :lmao:

[red states rule]

That's it---you caught me again. :lmao:

Dillo, if you have the misfortune of meeting terrorists, they might show you their appreciation for your support by killing you last

[Dilloduck]

So that was what you meant. Dillo, what game are you playing here?
Why bring it up or suggest it unless you favor it or somehow think it reasonable?
Quite pretending your statements are abstracts when you are called to task on them. It clearly points to deception and dishonesty in posting when engaging it that type of discourse IMHO.-Tyr

Listen up-----for Sharia Law to be enacted in the US the current law would have to be challenged and the courts would have to rule that Sharia Law takes precendent. Britain rolled over and allowed it to happen in certain cases ( primarily arbitration in civil law). If the American judicial system rolls over when our current laws are challenged it can happen here too. They rolled over and allowed abortion. If you truly want to fight sharia law you better take it up with the courts.

[Dilloduck]

:dance:
Dillo, if you have the misfortune of meeting terrorists, they might show you their appreciation for your support by killing you last

I'll let you know how it goes.

[tailfins]

:beer: :salute: :beer:...-Tyr

Cartoons from Tyr-Ziu "Joe Biden" Saxnot.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/smilies/dance.gif

I'll let you know how it goes.

For your first mission, you need to buy a snack from a guy named Isma'il at a corner convenience store. Please tell us if you come out alive.

[aboutime]

Dillo, if you have the misfortune of meeting terrorists, they might show you their appreciation for your support by killing you last


red states rule. Liberal, Democrats like Dillo never have to worry about losing their heads at the hands of terrorists.

They only BEHEAD those who threaten them with Brains.

[red states rule]

red states rule. Liberal, Democrats like Dillo never have to worry about losing their heads at the hands of terrorists.

They only BEHEAD those who threaten them with Brains.

Dillo is what is known as a useful idiot

http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/1842567/82812169.jpg

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/10/12/pakistan-teen-taliban-shot.html?cmp=rss

Taliban ordered hit on teen activist 2 months ago


Pakistani girl remains unconscious, on ventilator

The Associated Press

Posted: Oct 12, 2012 6:12 AM ET

Last Updated: Oct 12, 2012 11:22 AM ET

Read 153 comments153 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/10/12/pakistan-teen-taliban-shot.html#socialcomments)
http://www.debatepolicy.com/gfx/images/news/topstories/2012/10/10/hi-shot-activist-cp03397027-8col.jpg A badly wounded Malala Yousafzai is moved to a helicopter on Oct. 9 to be taken to Peshawar for treatment in Mingora, Swat Valley, Pakistan. The 14-year-old activist is known for championing the education of girls and publicizing atrocities committed by the Taliban. (Sherin Zada/Associated Press)


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<!-- START OF UGC --><!-- END OF UGC --><!-- MEDIA CLIPS --><!-- END MEDIA CLIPS -->Related

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<DL><DT>The Pakistani girl who is taking on the Taliban (http://www.debatepolicy.com/news/world/story/2012/10/10/f-vp-fatah-malala-taliban.html)</DT><DT>Pakistani girl shot by Taliban remains target (http://www.debatepolicy.com/news/world/story/2012/10/10/malala-interview-asithappens.html)</DT></DL>
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A spokesman for the Taliban's Swat Valley chapter says its leadership decided two months ago to kill a 14-year-old activist, who was shot and seriously wounded this week — and then sent out a hit squad to carry out the job.
A spokesman, Sirajuddin Ahmad, on Friday said Malala Yousufzai was warned three times to stop her activities promoting "Western thinking," but she did not.
He said the last warning was conveyed a week ago to her family.
Ahmad said two of the attackers had expertise in shooting people in the head. The hit squad carefully examined the girl's route from school to her home.
In a separate development Friday, Pakistani police in the town of Mingora, where the shooting occurred, said they have arrested a number of suspects in the case.
Mingora police chief Afzal Khan Afridi declined to give details about the number of people detained or what role they're suspected in having in the shooting.
Yousufzai is in "satisfactory" condition at a military hospital, a spokesman said Friday, cautioning that the next few days will be critical.
Maj. Gen. Asim Saleem Bajwa said she is being kept unconscious and on a ventilator, and doctors will decide when to take her off.
"Her blood pressure is normal. Heartbeat is normal, and thanks to God, her condition is satisfactory," Bajwa said.
Bajwa said the bullet entered her head and went into her neck toward her spine, but it was too soon to say whether she had any significant head injury.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank God that she is not dead and is doing as good as she is!
This is the type of people that defend Islam, they will murder anybody, they are the Jihadists.
And hundreds of millions muslims support that type be it Taliban, Al qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, etc..
They support it because its a part of Islam, a core part..

THIS IS WHY I TAKE MY STAND!!! THIS MURDERING BRUTALITY THAT IS ISLAM.. -Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

cartoons from tyr-ziu "joe biden" saxnot.



For your first mission, you need to buy a snack from a guy named isma'il at a corner convenience store. Please tell us if you come out alive.

you buy, you do business with them and you support them because of it.putting your personal gain over the safety and security of our nation. Putting that gain over the value of the lives they murder and destroy. You sold out not me!--tyr

[Drummond]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by red states rule http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=584706#post584706)

Dillo, if you have the misfortune of meeting terrorists, they might show you their appreciation for your support by killing you last



:dance:

I'll let you know how it goes.

... really ??

Surely, this can only mean one thing .. that you'd expect to survive such an encounter ?

How would you manage that, Dilloduck ? What would be your 'secret' for guaranteed survival ?

[Dilloduck]

... really ??

Surely, this can only mean one thing .. that you'd expect to survive such an encounter ?

How would you manage that, Dilloduck ? What would be your 'secret' for guaranteed survival ?

My hands are lethal weapons.

[Drummond]

My hands are lethal weapons.

So are guns firing bullets, Dilloduck. And they're somewhat quicker ...

No, I still find your confidence curious. Consider the average bloodlust-fuelled Muslim terrorist, Dilloduck, keen to dance on their victims' graves, always assuming there's enough left over from their bombs to bury. Consider also the fact of their subhumanity and their lack of any understanding of the word 'honour'.

Whether or not you were likely to survive an encounter with any such disgusting savage, Dilloduck, the point is that you expressed confidence in your emerging apparently unscathed from your supposed encounter. I was wondering where your extent of certainty came from.

[Dilloduck]

So are guns firing bullets, Dilloduck. And they're somewhat quicker ...

No, I still find your confidence curious. Consider the average bloodlust-fuelled Muslim terrorist, Dilloduck, keen to dance on their victims' graves, always assuming there's enough left over from their bombs to bury. Consider also the fact of their subhumanity and their lack of any understanding of the word 'honour'.

Whether or not you were likely to survive an encounter with any such disgusting savage, Dilloduck, the point is that you expressed confidence in your emerging apparently unscathed from your supposed encounter. I was wondering where your extent of certainty came from.

Is this an interrogation ? Waterboard me if you think Im hiding some big secret. :laugh2:

[tailfins]

So are guns firing bullets, Dilloduck. And they're somewhat quicker ...

No, I still find your confidence curious. Consider the average bloodlust-fuelled Muslim terrorist, Dilloduck, keen to dance on their victims' graves, always assuming there's enough left over from their bombs to bury. Consider also the fact of their subhumanity and their lack of any understanding of the word 'honour'.

Whether or not you were likely to survive an encounter with any such disgusting savage, Dilloduck, the point is that you expressed confidence in your emerging apparently unscathed from your supposed encounter. I was wondering where your extent of certainty came from.

I thought conservatives promote rugged individualism and group guilt was a Socialist thing. I am seeing otherwise by apparent "conservatives".

[aboutime]

Is this an interrogation ? Waterboard me if you think Im hiding some big secret. :laugh2:


It is IMPOSSIBLE to Waterboard a sponge. That's your only secret worth discussing here. And it would be a waste of good water too!

It is also Impossible to Interrogate a Sponge. Two wrongs never make anything right.

[Drummond]

Is this an interrogation ? Waterboard me if you think Im hiding some big secret. :laugh2:

Well, I'm not getting a direct reply to my questions. Launching an 'interrogation' only becomes appropriate when there's a need to press someone for answers when that person is reluctant to give them.

As for 'waterboarding' .. I thought this was considered appropriate for use against captured Muslim terrorists ? Curious again is the fact that you attribute an appropriateness of such a method to yourself, without any suggestion of it previously from me.

Are you trying to tell us something, Dilloduck ?

[Drummond]

I thought conservatives promote rugged individualism and group guilt was a Socialist thing. I am seeing otherwise by apparent "conservatives".

Sorry, I'm not following. Care to explain further ?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

So are guns firing bullets, Dilloduck. And they're somewhat quicker ...

No, I still find your confidence curious. Consider the average bloodlust-fuelled Muslim terrorist, Dilloduck, keen to dance on their victims' graves, always assuming there's enough left over from their bombs to bury. Consider also the fact of their subhumanity and their lack of any understanding of the word 'honour'.

Whether or not you were likely to survive an encounter with any such disgusting savage, Dilloduck, the point is that you expressed confidence in your emerging apparently unscathed from your supposed encounter. I was wondering where your extent of certainty came from.

Maybe dillo is an undercover agent for the Muslim brotherhood.-:laugh2:

He sure is confident about something in regards to meeting up with muslim terrorists. Curious indeed.. -Tyr

[Dilloduck]

It is IMPOSSIBLE to Waterboard a sponge. That's your only secret worth discussing here. And it would be a waste of good water too!

It is also Impossible to Interrogate a Sponge. Two wrongs never make anything right.

There's nothing to tell, knucklehead. These characters are on some wild goose chase. :laugh2:

[Dilloduck]

Maybe dillo is an undercover agent for the Muslim brotherhood.-:laugh2:

He sure is confident about something in regards to meeting up with muslim terrorists. Curious indeed.. -Tyr

:lmao: OK--now you've officially gone over the edge.

[aboutime]

Well, I'm not getting a direct reply to my questions. Launching an 'interrogation' only becomes appropriate when there's a need to press someone for answers when that person is reluctant to give them.

As for 'waterboarding' .. I thought this was considered appropriate for use against captured Muslim terrorists ? Curious again is the fact that you attribute an appropriateness of such a method to yourself, without any suggestion of it previously from me.

Are you trying to tell us something, Dilloduck ?

Be patient Drummond. Eventually, after you have managed to confuse, frustrate, anger, and expose Dillo. The next tactics will come straight from our Liberal, Democrat talking points manual. You should expect the name calling, accusations, and attempts at personal destruction to begin shortly...followed by the terrorist, and racist slurs directed your way for exposing any form of liberal Intolerance.

[Drummond]

:lmao: OK--now you've officially gone over the edge.

Is that so ?

OK. Why not try ANSWERING my posts ? I'll ask you again for a direct and proper response to my post #579.

[Dilloduck]

Is that so ?

OK. Why not try ANSWERING my posts ? I'll ask you again for a direct and proper response to my post #579.

Tyhe answer to #579 is

drum roll please








NO

[aboutime]

Tyhe answer to #579 is

drum roll please








NO



Good for you Dillo. Taking the easiest, most protective, defensive mode that prevents you from being held responsible for saying anything that resembles an honest answer is just....so typically Liberal of you.

[Drummond]

Tyhe answer to #579 is

drum roll please








NO

'NO', you're not trying to tell us anything ? Getting a bit tight-lipped, there, Dilloduck ?

No matter. It was an interesting exchange, for as long as it lasted. I for one felt it had potential to be informative ...

Good luck with any future inexplicable survivals of encounters with Muslim terrorists, which you evidently feel sure should occur (but which remain unexplained ..).

[Dilloduck]

Good for you Dillo. Taking the easiest, most protective, defensive mode that prevents you from being held responsible for saying anything that resembles an honest answer is just....so typically Liberal of you.


A liberal would have never given you a straight answer.

[fj1200]

i DIDN'T offer it----I said it was possible. Seriously-----you need to make an attempt to understand what I post instead of twisting it.

Sometimes one can be too subtle I guess.

[red states rule]

http://blog.timesunion.com/muslimwomen/files/2012/06/Sharia_Law_The_View1.jpg

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Sometimes one can be too subtle I guess.


But never too cleverly deceitful, right?--Tyr

[fj1200]

:facepalm99:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

:facepalm99:

Now that you are reduced to making posts like that I say..--:clap:
Keep it up, it will impress everybody that sees it and certainly present your vast knowledge to amaze us..--Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/egypt%E2%80%99s-islamic-group-calls-for-jihad-to-force-sharia-into-constitution/


World
Egypt’s Islamic Group Calls for Jihad to Force Sharia into Constitution

Posted on October 14, 2012 at 12:05pm by http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/edac975f8afa1de788e1e382e6c79b57?s=17&d=http%3A%2F%2F0.gravatar.com%2Favatar%2Fad516503a 11cd5ca435acc9bb6523536%3Fs%3D17&r=G Sharona Schwartz (http://www.theblaze.com/blog/author/sharonachwartz)



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Egypt’s al-Gama’a al-Islamiyya – or Islamic Group – is warning it could use violence as a means to ensure Sharia law is adopted in the latest draft of the country’s constitution and is calling on Egyptians to wage “jihad and fight in support of Sharia.”
This call was made by Mohamed Salah, the leader of the group which the U.S. designates as a terrorist organization. Al-Gama’a al-Islamiyya’s spiritual leader was the blind Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/egypts-morsi-i-will-do-everything-in-my-power-to-secure-freedom-for-the-blind-sheikh/bio-omar-abdel-rahman-jamaa-islamiyya/) who is imprisoned in the U.S. for his role in blowing up the World Trade Center in New York in February 1993 and for plotting to assassinate then Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.
Egypt Independent reports (http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/jama-al-islamiya-we-will-fight-sharia-even-if-blood-shed):

Salah said during a conference in the Ain Shams neighborhood that Egyptians should “support Islamic Sharia in the Egyptian constitution,” and that “Jama’a al-Islamiya* will fight for the application of God’s law, even if that requires bloodshed.”
He called on Islamist movements to organize mass demonstrations to “trap secularists inside the place where the Constituent Assembly holds its meetings, so that everyone knows that the people want an Islamist [state].”
He also demanded that President Mohamed Morsy issue a decree to “defeat the schemes of liberals to reject the law of God.”
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This is another reason that I take mystand here and now. America had better wake up and do so soon.-Tyr

[fj1200]

Now that you are reduced to making posts like that I say..--:clap:
Keep it up, it will impress everybody that sees it and certainly present your vast knowledge to amaze us..--Tyr

Why waste words when you wouldn't understand them anyway. That smilie said everything IMO.

[Dilloduck]

I understood it perfectly-----and I thought we were worried about Sharia Law being a threat to the AMERICAN constitution.

[aboutime]

A liberal would have never given you a straight answer.



My mistake. Thank you Mister Obama.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Why waste words when you wouldn't understand them anyway.

That smilie said everything IMO.

Good , just use smilies from now on, it will be a vast improvement over your previous blather.-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/08/03/Obama-administration-paves-the-way-for-sharia-law

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by William Bigelow (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Columnists/William-Bigelow) 6 Aug 2012 728 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Big-Government/2012/08/03/Obama-administration-paves-the-way-for-sharia-law#disqus_thread)post a comment (http://www.debatepolicy.com/Big-Government/2012/08/03/Obama-administration-paves-the-way-for-sharia-law#comments)
The most terrifying danger Americans face from a second Barack Obama term isn’t the economy, which is scary enough.The most harrowing prospect is the Obama Administration’s passivity in the face of attempts to introduce aspects of sharia law into our legal system. Now there is strong and open evidence of the Obama administration collaborating with Islamist activists to ensure the path toward sharia law is accelerated.
Just last week, Thomas Perez, Assistant Attorney General of the Department of Justice (DOJ) Civil Rights Division, was asked this question by Trent Franks (R-AZ), a member of the House Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on the Constitution: "Will you tell us here today that this Administration's Department of Justice will never entertain or advance a proposal that criminalizes speech against any religion?"
Perez refused (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wwv9l6W8yc) to answer. Four times.
And why would Franks target Perez? Here’s why: Last October, at George Washington University, there was a meeting between DOJ officials, including Perez, and Islamist advocates against free speech. Representatives from the Islamist side included Mohamed Magid, president of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA). The ISNA was an unindicted co-conspirator in a Hamas terror funding trial in 2008, as well as functioning as a Muslim Brotherhood Front. The leader of the Islamist attack was Sahar Aziz, an Egyptian-born American lawyer and Fellow at the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding, a Muslim advocacy group based in Michigan. At the meeting, the Islamists lobbied for:


Cutbacks in U.S. anti-terror training
Limits on the power of terrorism investigators
Changes in agent training manuals
A legal declaration that criticism of Islam in the United States should be considered racial discrimination


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^^^^ This is why we must stand up now to stop Sharia law ..-Tyr

[fj1200]

Good , just use smilies from now on, it will be a vast improvement over your previous blather.-Tyr

I'll have my kids draw up some stick figure illustrations for you so that you can keep up with the class.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I'll have my kids draw up some stick figure illustrations for you so that you can keep up with the class.

Why? Not even able to draw stick figure illustrations yourself?:laugh2: You had better stick with the smilies offered here then.

How about that obama goon, Thoma Perez , refusing to answer four times when asked about if the obama admin would ever entertain or advance a proposal criminalising speech against religion? See for reference my earlier post that you ignored.
Care to discuss a real topic or is childish cartoonish insults all you got?

:laugh:

[fj1200]

Why?

I need someone who can keep it down to your level.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/03/sharia-law-in-america-.html

Here is real news, real story on creeping Sharia law in our country.--Tyr

Thursday, March 31, 2011Sharia Law in America: Boy, 12, charged with hate crime for attempting to rip religious head scarf off head of classmateBottom line, this bully was a troublemaker. He should have been expelled from the school when he cut a chunk of hair off another girl in the class. That's what is wrong with this story -- the school's apathy and complacency towards violence.
But he pulls on a headscarf and he is charged with blasphemy? WTF?
"Hate crime" is enforcement of islamic law (sharia). Who decides whats a "hate crime"? CAIR? The Muslim Brotherhood? The OIC?
Why wasn't the boy charged with a hate crime when he cut the chunk of hair out of the other girl's head? The hate crime of misogyny. Perhaps she was overweight. Should he not have been charged with a hate crime against fat people?

Boy, 12, charged with hate crime for attempting to rip religious head scarf off head of classmate (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/03/31/2011-03-31_head_scarf_attack_nets_12yrold_boy_hate_arrest. html#ixzz1IBMnjc4I) NY Daily News

A 12-year-old Staten Island (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Staten+Island) boy was charged with felony assault as a hate crime for attempting to rip a religious head scarf off the head of a classmate on Wednesday, sources said.
Osman Daramy (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Osman+Daramy) attacked the female student outside the Berta Dreyfus Intermediate School (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Berta+Dreyfus+Intermediate+School) in Stapleton (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Stapleton+%28New+York%29) about 1 p.m., the sources said.
Osman allegedly punched and kicked the girl before trying to grab the scarf wrapped around her head, sources said. He was unable to remove the hijab during the tussle.
Cops also charged the hellbent schoolboy with aggravated harassment.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charged with a religious hate crime no less -- blasphemy. -Tyr

[fj1200]

How about that obama goon, Thoma Perez , refusing to answer four times when asked about if the obama admin would ever entertain or advance a proposal criminalising speech against religion? See for reference my earlier post that you ignored.
Care to discuss a real topic or is childish cartoonish insults all you got?

How about him? Bad Perez, bad DOJ, for shame.


Here is real news, real story on creeping Sharia law in our country.

We've had stupid hate crimes legislation in this country going on for 20 years, or more.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

How about him? Bad Perez, bad DOJ, for shame.



We've had stupid hate crimes legislation in this country going on for 20 years, or more.

Hate crime legislation previously did not seek to include provisions against our free speech rights. To attempt to get blasphemy laws passed or even ordered by Executive order!
Because Islamists want special protection for their cult they seek to destroy our free speech rights!
Yet you seem to poo-poo that. Why? Arent you ever on the side of defending our Constitution?
Defending our Bill of Rights?
Sharia law is the very real threat that I maintain that it is..I will continue to post more truth and more proof of that..-Tyr

[tailfins]

Hate crime legislation previously did not seek to include provisions against our free speech rights. To attempt to get blasphemy laws passed or even ordered by Executive order!
Because Islamists want special protection for their cult they seek to destroy our free speech rights!
Yet you seem to poo-poo that. Why? Arent you ever on the side of defending our Constitution?
Defending our Bill of Rights?
Sharia law is the very real threat that I maintain that it is..I will continue to post more truth and more proof of that..-Tyr


There's a problem here, but not exactly the one presented. The problem is over criminalization and turning courts into government profit centers. "Hate crime" legislation is one more tool that leads to insane charges for obnoxious acts.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

There's a problem here, but not exactly the one presented. The problem is over criminalization and turning courts into government profit centers. "Hate crime" legislation is one more tool that leads to insane charges for obnoxious acts.

Actually, the same thinking that got us the insane hate crime legislation could get us a blasphemy law designed to protect Islam. That blasphemy law would be like the one that Sharia law has with maybe the exception of how severe the punishment would be but that could and would be amended later as they gain more power here. Its the creeping method that they so often use when facing greater opposition. Simply too dangerous for us to ever allow to start here, for its so like a cancer.. Study Britain for a good example of how they do it..-Tyr

[fj1200]

Hate crime legislation previously did not seek to include provisions against our free speech rights. To attempt to get blasphemy laws passed or even ordered by Executive order!
Because Islamists want special protection for their cult they seek to destroy our free speech rights!
Yet you seem to poo-poo that. Why? Arent you ever on the side of defending our Constitution?
Defending our Bill of Rights?
Sharia law is the very real threat that I maintain that it is..I will continue to post more truth and more proof of that..-Tyr

1. He committed assault and battery. A crime.
2. 12-year old students in school do not have freedom of speech.
3. Where haven't I defended the Constitution?

[avatar4321]

Of what good is peace if it is bought at the cost of sacrificing all that we hold dear? There is a great failure in our country today and that is the failure to understand total submission. What total submission is and how it could lead to our demise. The greatest example of total submission today is Islam. Yes, Islam is the essence of total submission and it demands that not only from its followers but also from all that it confronts.
Surely we that place such great value on justice and freedom can see that there can be absolutely no peace with Islam, with those so dedicated to destroying freedom and justice as we know it. Destroying it as our founders intended and created a governing magnificent document to guide.
Should we fail to unite and arrive at that conclusion, create a proper plan of action and pursue it with determination we shall meet our destruction. For abandoning our integrity, honor and justice we shall pay a heavy price. One that few will dare admit because such tragedy is always the fate of others and we console ourselves with that old line of comforting thinking. Should we fail to act such tragedy may possibly be a just fate for a peoples that have betrayed the sacrifice of millions that gave us the most precious of blessings: Independence, freedom, Rule of law and Constitution.! Such a combination that was not only unique in the world but has since failed to be duplicated !
Should we abandone common sense, Rule of Law to follow the easier path of appeasement our choice made to avoid confronting our fears and our enemy shall almost certainly bring destruction for having renounced the gift that has been dearly bought with the blood, tears and treasure of countless Americans that have lived and died fighting the true fight. The good fight of justice over injustice , of good over evil and the happiness of having created and passed on a blessing beyond compare to future generations..
Rather than yield to complacency, indifference and shallow lusts of the times it may be wise to learn again how to fall to bended knee and asked for strength of mind , pureness of heart and justice defended by righteous blade and keen intellect! If you have no “blade” sell your costly toys to buy the best money can buy. For what good be such if in maintaining one looses their head? Ask not mercy and gifts from enemies with no honor but instead stand firm defend your life, your family and your country! For life often demands great sacrifice, think not and life will take that and more. The more being that which few can or will dare imagine but life cares not about our fears and failures. It is we that should care more about life!
Care enough to stand against those that would murder our parents, enslave our children and exstinguish freedom and justice forever. Islam, shall not subjugate this great nation. Shall not if we face it without fear and with determination birthed from defending that which is good and right about our nation. The nation created to be the guiding light to the world. A Christian nation blessed by God and occupied by those brave enough to spill blood , blood of others as well as their own! -Tyr

No link , my composition...

I think it's obvious that the only source of peace in this world comes through God. We recieve peace from the Prince of Peace.

Now, if we are right with God, is there any way Muslims or any other foe can beat us?

And if we are not right with the Prince of Peace, how can we expect peace in our lives or with neighbors.

I think it was clearly stated in Lincoln's call for a day of Humiliation, Fasting, and Prayer (http://www.quietwaters.org/abraham_lincoln_national_day_of_prayer.htm):


And whereas, it is the duty of nations as as well as of men, to owe their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions, in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon; and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord:

And, in so much as we know that, by His divine law, nations, like individuals, are subjected to punishments and chastisements in this world, may we not justly fear that the awful calamity of civil war, which now desolates the land, may be but a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins, to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole People? We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven. We have been preserved, these many years, in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth, and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us! It behooves us, then to humble ourselves before the offended Power, to confess our national sins, and to pray for clemency and forgiveness.


With God, No enemy will prevail against us. Without Him, we are left to our own devices.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I need someone who can keep it down to your level.

No, what you need is help but too bad even when you get it it is not enough. You can never defeat the TRUTH pedro . I am but a messenger and even were you to shoot me the TRUTH still stands.. That you defend lies, liars and murderers(terrorists) will always insure that you fail too.. Sure , you defend them in what you think a clever way(keeping the stain off you) but it's still defending them no less.. I have and will always call you on it as long as I am here.. -Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I think it's obvious that the only source of peace in this world comes through God. We recieve peace from the Prince of Peace.

Now, if we are right with God, is there any way Muslims or any other foe can beat us?

And if we are not right with the Prince of Peace, how can we expect peace in our lives or with neighbors.

I think it was clearly stated in Lincoln's call for a day of Humiliation, Fasting, and Prayer (http://www.quietwaters.org/abraham_lincoln_national_day_of_prayer.htm):



With God, No enemy will prevail against us. Without Him, we are left to our own devices.

^^^^^^ I agree with that statement..
As a nation we are not right with God! Thats the problem. We have as a nation allowed the murder of an estimated 59+ million unborn children= legal abortions.. That shall not be ignored by God IMHO.. We MAY face a terrible wrath one day and misery unimaginable to modern man because of that.. I say may because only God knows the future..
Yet I take my stand come what may..If muslims gain control here in America they will murder me because of my words posted here on this site. A fact.. -Tyr

[Noir]

With God, No enemy will prevail against us. Without Him, we are left to our own devices.

Do you mean this in a literal or spiritual sense?

If you mean spiritual, fair enough, that a philosophy based on belief, with which there can only be metaphysical discussion.

If you mean literal, then we have a problem, because t does not matter how right with god you are, if a man comes at you with a sword and chains, he will lop of you're head and shackle your children.

[fj1200]

No, what you need is help but too bad even when you get it it is not enough. You can never defeat the TRUTH pedro . I am but a messenger and even were you to shoot me the TRUTH still stands.. That you defend lies, liars and murderers(terrorists) will always insure that you fail too.. Sure , you defend them in what you think a clever way(keeping the stain off you) but it's still defending them no less.. I have and will always call you on it as long as I am here.. -Tyr

You are still confusing defending "them" vs. saying that you are wrong. BTW, the truth is easily defeated via the ignorance of the populace, see 2008 for reference.

[aboutime]

You are still confusing defending "them" vs. saying that you are wrong. BTW, the truth is easily defeated via the ignorance of the populace, see 2008 for reference.



NOT ONE MEMBER OF THIS FORUM has the capability, or power to change the TRUTH. Not one.

Those who claim Lies are true, cannot prove they are true because they must make-up other lies they must always believe.

[fj1200]

NOT ONE MEMBER OF THIS FORUM has the capability, or power to change the TRUTH. Not one.

Those who claim Lies are true, cannot prove they are true because they must make-up other lies they must always believe.

The problem is that TRUTH is mere interpretation of facts. Reasonable people can disagree I just happen to believe conservatism is correct.

[avatar4321]

Do you mean this in a literal or spiritual sense?

If you mean spiritual, fair enough, that a philosophy based on belief, with which there can only be metaphysical discussion.

If you mean literal, then we have a problem, because t does not matter how right with god you are, if a man comes at you with a sword and chains, he will lop of you're head and shackle your children.

I mean literally. No man with a sword can chop off my head and shackle my children unless it's God's will.

He has told us how to be free. We are free when we follow the truth. The truth sets us free.

[Dilloduck]

I think we need aliens to come by and help us look at ourselves and our lives with a different perspective.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You are still confusing defending "them" vs. saying that you are wrong. BTW, the truth is easily defeated via the ignorance of the populace, see 2008 for reference.

Wrong, it may be covered up temporarily, hidden or rejected but it is never defeated. TRUTH no more can be defeated than can God. For alL Christians know that God is TRUTH.--Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I think we need aliens to come by and help us look at ourselves and our lives with a different perspective.

We have aliens by the millions, they engage in horrible crimes, take jobs from citizens and often demand special treatment while they use and abuse of social safety programs in order to send billions yearly in cash back to their home in Mexico. It figures that you would be clueless about all that.-Tyr

[aboutime]

The problem is that TRUTH is mere interpretation of facts. Reasonable people can disagree I just happen to believe conservatism is correct.

"That" is not a problem. The TRUTH always will remain the truth. While human beings will attempt to create their own forms of truth, call them facts, and believe them...even knowing they are false. And Falsehoods....CAN BE CHANGED to suit anyone while they struggle in their attempts, but fail, to change the Truth.

[Dilloduck]

We have aliens by the millions, they engage in horrible crimes, take jobs from citizens and often demand special treatment while they use and abuse of social safety programs in order to send billions yearly in cash back to their home in Mexico. It figures that you would be clueless about all that.-Tyr

can resist an insult can ya ? Nice try. :laugh2:

[aboutime]

can resist an insult can ya ? Nice try. :laugh2:

Dilloduck. You are not unlike other liberals here who always find a need to call STATING THE TRUTH as an Insult.

Can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen kinda comes to mind here.

Just like Obama, and anyone who represents him in any way. Whenever the TRUTH is presented, and cannot be disputed Honestly. The trained Liberal, Democrat, gullible follower has been instructed to always deny TRUTH by calling the messenger out as Insulting them.

It used to work. Until everyone wised up, and began to recognize how Liberals always avoid being confronted with the TRUTH.

[Dilloduck]

Dilloduck. You are not unlike other liberals here who always find a need to call STATING THE TRUTH as an Insult.

Can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen kinda comes to mind here.

Just like Obama, and anyone who represents him in any way. Whenever the TRUTH is presented, and cannot be disputed Honestly. The trained Liberal, Democrat, gullible follower has been instructed to always deny TRUTH by calling the messenger out as Insulting them.

It used to work. Until everyone wised up, and began to recognize how Liberals always avoid being confronted with the TRUTH.

As if you know what the truth is.------liberal :laugh: never voted liberal in my life.

[aboutime]

As if you know what the truth is.------liberal :laugh: never voted liberal in my life.

So? Because you claim to have never voted Liberal, doesn't rule out your liberal leanings.

As for not knowing what the truth is. Sure thing. So, here's your opportunity to disclose WHAT LIES you say I have told.

[fj1200]

Wrong, it may be covered up temporarily, hidden or rejected but it is never defeated. TRUTH no more can be defeated than can God. For alL Christians know that God is TRUTH.--Tyr

Who was talking about religion? That makes my statement even more correct.


"That" is not a problem. The TRUTH always will remain the truth. While human beings will attempt to create their own forms of truth, call them facts, and believe them...even knowing they are false. And Falsehoods....CAN BE CHANGED to suit anyone while they struggle in their attempts, but fail, to change the Truth.

Now you're just talking in circles. Truth is interpretation, people can easily be wrong but still be comfortable in their TRUTH. An example: FACT: 10 million jobs were created while Jimmy Carter was President. Truth or interpretation?

[Dilloduck]

So? Because you claim to have never voted Liberal, doesn't rule out your liberal leanings.

As for not knowing what the truth is. Sure thing. So, here's your opportunity to disclose WHAT LIES you say I have told.

Better yet why don't you lay an absolute TRUTH on us. One that's a little more specific than "God".

[Abbey Marie]

As if you know what the truth is.------liberal :laugh: never voted liberal in my life.

I've known you far too long to see you as a Lib. In fact, I think you defy categorization. ;)

[aboutime]

Better yet why don't you lay an absolute TRUTH on us. One that's a little more specific than "God".


Absolute Truth? I'm so proud you asked me to do that. Here ya go. ABSOLUTE TRUTH....."OBAMA IS A LIAR!"

And, for your entertainment. "That's the GOD'S HONEST TRUTH!"

[Drummond]

I think we need aliens to come by and help us look at ourselves and our lives with a different perspective.

... Muslims, for example ? Yes ?

[Dilloduck]

... Muslims, for example ? Yes ?

Dude--you really need to give up this thinking that I'm some kind of Muslim lover. I'm talking about space people.

[aboutime]

Dude--you really need to give up this thinking that I'm some kind of Muslim lover. I'm talking about space people.

Dilloduck. Since you brought it up, and caught our attention. How bout you tell us How many 'space people' you actually know?

[Dilloduck]

Dilloduck. Since you brought it up, and caught our attention. How bout you tell us How many 'space people' you actually know?

I'd have to laser ya.

[avatar4321]

Better yet why don't you lay an absolute TRUTH on us. One that's a little more specific than "God".

What topic do you want the truth on?

[Dilloduck]

What topic do you want the truth on?

Islam

[aboutime]

Islam



Dilloduck. Which Version would that be?
The one that punished women with beheadings,
or the one that punishes anyone who claims to be an American?

[Dilloduck]

Dilloduck. Which Version would that be?
The one that punished women with beheadings,
or the one that punishes anyone who claims to be an American?

Good question-----is every single Muslim evil and deserving of reprimand and hate ?

[aboutime]

Good question-----is every single Muslim evil and deserving of reprimand and hate ?



Dilloduck. ANOTHER GOOD....NON-ANSWER. You really do sound more like Obama, every time you type something here.
Using the Typical Liberal response...asking another question, rather than answering one is just so....LIBERALLY INTOLERANT.

[Dilloduck]

Dilloduck. ANOTHER GOOD....NON-ANSWER. You really do sound more like Obama, every time you type something here.
Using the Typical Liberal response...asking another question, rather than answering one is just so....LIBERALLY INTOLERANT.

I asked for the truth about Islam--You responded with a question. Who is sounding like Obama ?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Good question-----is every single Muslim evil and deserving of reprimand and hate ?

haha, you answered his question with a question yourself then later scold him for returning the favor.
You should never scold for others answering a question with a question for you do it so damn often yourself.

[avatar4321]

Islam

Sadly, I can't answer that one.

[Dilloduck]

Ok folks--pay attention---I asked the first question. It was about Islam.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Good question-----is every single Muslim evil and deserving of reprimand and hate ?

Evil exists in the world, that you seem to think it must exist as a supreme majority within a group to be real is foolhardy and a bit deceitful IMHO. FOR IT IS USED BY YOU TO FURTHER YOUR AGENDA BY AVOIDANCE AND SPIN.
We had evil during WW2, it sought to dominate the world. Can we say alll germans or all japs were evil? Didnt matter, all that matters is who is in charge and what course they choose to take..Right now the mullahs reign supreme in Islam and they hold to the strictest fundamental form of Islam. In that , its commanded that muslims must force all humans to submit to Allah! Dont worry, when commanded the majority in Islam will obey and they depend on that reality. They in fact view it as their greatest strength against us!-Tyr

[aboutime]

I asked for the truth about Islam--You responded with a question. Who is sounding like Obama ?

Thanks Dilloduck. If you insist that I sound like Obama. You must certainly agree...BOTH OF US ARE LIARS as well.

[Dilloduck]

Evil exists in the world, that you seem to think it must exist as a supreme majority within a group to be real is foolhardy and a bit deceitful IMHO. FOR IT IS USED BY YOU TO FURTHER YOUR AGENDA BY AVOIDANCE AND SPIN.
We had evil during WW2, it sought to dominate the world. Can we say alll germans or all japs were evil? Didnt matter, all that matters is who is in charge and what course they choose to take..Right now the mullahs reign supreme in Islam and they hold to the strictest fundamental form of Islam. In that , its commanded that muslims must force all humans to submit to Allah! Dont worry, when commanded the majority in Islam will obey and they depend on that reality. They in fact view it as their greatest strength against us!-Tyr

Germany and Japan aren't religions. My agenda is to prosecute terrorists and not the religion they belong to. How do you intend to defeat a religion? Make it illegal to practice it?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Ok folks--pay attention---I asked the first question. It was about Islam.

I gave you a reply. What? You don't like it!!! Nothing surprising about that. You never like to hear the truth about Islam..You prefer to hear Jafar's version of Islam. One spewed forth by a believer in the cult... that is blinded by delusion and slavish obedience!-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Germany and Japan aren't religions. My agenda is to prosecute terrorists and not the religion they belong to. How do you intend to defeat a religion? Make it illegal to practice it?

Subject was Islam and Islam murders to further its agenda, that is evil. So my evil reference included the nazi's and the japs = WW2. Did apply.
Your contention that Islam a religion can not be defeated never seems to include CHRISTIANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Isnt Christianity a religion?? Answer, dont ignore or spin..-Tyr

[Dilloduck]

Subject was Islam and Islam murders to further its agenda, that is evil. So my evil reference included the nazi's and the japs = WW2. Did apply.
Your contention that Islam a religion can not be defeated never seems to include CHRISTIANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Isnt Christianity a religion?? Answer, dont ignore or spin..-Tyr

LOL and you claim I spin :laugh2:

DOH of course Christianity is a religion--it can't be defeated either.

[fj1200]

I asked for the truth about Islam--You responded with a question. Who is sounding like Obama ?

Apparently Socrates and his method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method) are truly dead. :shrug:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Apparently Socrates and his method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method) are truly dead. :shrug:

" False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." Socrates

Islam being the number one example of that.-Tyr

[fj1200]

" False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." Socrates

Islam being the number one example of that.-Tyr

Interesting opinion. Doesn't speak to this however.


Germany and Japan aren't religions. My agenda is to prosecute terrorists and not the religion they belong to. How do you intend to defeat a religion? Make it illegal to practice it?

[tailfins]

Interesting opinion. Doesn't speak to this however.

The irony is that if Tyr's point of view were implemented, it would result in a victory for the Islamic terrorists.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The irony is that if Tyr's point of view were implemented, it would result in a victory for the Islamic terrorists.

Thats bullshit of the highest caliber. One must oppose lethal opposition not yield to it. You preach ignoring the problem as if its nothing while I stand firm on meeting it head on as America has always done when faced with grave threats. Just because you pretend to take the hugh road does not validate your Chamberlainlike position.
The fact that you hold that we can not defeat them speaks volumes about your true position. The Islamic terrorists are the advanced guard of the entire Islamic movement , they are not rogue elements as has been taught. Islam has been stopped before by being defeated and defeated decisively. Thats how Europe was saved. Try studying history..--Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Interesting opinion. Doesn't speak to this however.

The terrorists are the religion, it always has been with Islam. You guys know so little about Islam but then try to speak as if so damn knowledgeable on the subject. Islam is poised to make a major movement again! America has to be prepared to counter that because its first goal will be to destroy us!
Blind, gullible and arrogant is no way to go thru life but you two have apparently mastered it and think its just peachy.-Tyr

[fj1200]

Thats bullshit of the highest caliber. One must oppose lethal opposition not yield to it. You preach ignoring the problem as if its nothing while I stand firm on meeting it head on as America has always done when faced with grave threats. Just because you pretend to take the hugh road does not validate your Chamberlainlike position.
The fact that you hold that we can not defeat them speaks volumes about your true position. The Islamic terrorists are the advanced guard of the entire Islamic movement , they are not rogue elements as has been taught. Islam has been stopped before by being defeated and defeated decisively. Thats how Europe was saved. Try studying history..--Tyr

I have taken the liberty of bolding your false assumptions.


The terrorists are the religion, it always has been with Islam. You guys know so little about Islam but then try to speak as if so damn knowledgeable on the subject. Islam is poised to make a major movement again! America has to be prepared to counter that because its first goal will be to destroy us!
Blind, gullible and arrogant is no way to go thru life but you two have apparently mastered it and think its just peachy.-Tyr

Which is you still ignoring this.


Germany and Japan aren't religions. My agenda is to prosecute terrorists and not the religion they belong to. How do you intend to defeat a religion? Make it illegal to practice it?

[Dilloduck]

Thats bullshit of the highest caliber. One must oppose lethal opposition not yield to it. You preach ignoring the problem as if its nothing while I stand firm on meeting it head on as America has always done when faced with grave threats. Just because you pretend to take the hugh road does not validate your Chamberlainlike position.
The fact that you hold that we can not defeat them speaks volumes about your true position. The Islamic terrorists are the advanced guard of the entire Islamic movement , they are not rogue elements as has been taught. Islam has been stopped before by being defeated and defeated decisively. Thats how Europe was saved. Try studying history..--Tyr

Show me one post that suggests ignoring the problem or retract the statement. The strawman has turned into a monster

[tailfins]

Show me one post that suggests ignoring the problem or retract the statement. The strawman has turned into a monster

If the ACLU can defend the Klan, we can defend Tyr's right to beclown himself.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

If the ACLU can defend the Klan, we can defend Tyr's right to beclown himself.

^^^^^^^^^ The expert clown speaketh to amuse himself. I disagree with your ignorant stand on Islam and its grave threat to our security as a nation but will defend your right to make it because our freedom of speech insures that right even for dumbasses like you.-Tyr

[aboutime]

There is a very easy way for all of us to learn, and determine what some insist...IS NOT a war on, or about a religion, and others do insist terrorism is a war of a Religion.

Read, or take the time to find any of the known Terror Sponsored Websites where the Religion of Peace, and it's followers declare THEIR OWN RELIGIOUS WAR on Western Nations like the U.S.A.

Then tell us. After reading everything found on such sites. HOW Terrorists DEFINE this NON-WAR on Religion, and Religious beliefs by those who have sworn to KILL anyone who Disagree's with their Beliefs.

[Robert A Whit]

"That" is not a problem. The TRUTH always will remain the truth. While human beings will attempt to create their own forms of truth, call them facts, and believe them...even knowing they are false. And Falsehoods....CAN BE CHANGED to suit anyone while they struggle in their attempts, but fail, to change the Truth.

One elementary word yet I find it beng the subject of conversation.

Truth is not subjective. I agree entirely with the remark in quotes.

False is harder to piin down than truth since FALSE is accepted by many though it is easy to prove it is false.

Truth remains.

Let me give you an example.

Reagan had alzheimers as president.

Democrats have told me over and over that is a TRUE statement.

So, what has been their proof, what facts used to back up their remarks?

I have at no time got proof offered to me.

I counter that the FACT is that RR was very carefully examined by his doctor when he was president. He was asked once Reagan stated he had the disease, "Did RR have Alzheimers?"

The Dr stated that RR NEVER showed the slightest sign of the disease.

Democrats refuse to accept this. They claim the Dr. would not know.

My first wife suffers this ailment. The last time I saw her, some 5 years back, I spotted right off that she had memory problems. I did not call it what it later turned out to be, but she had it.

Reagan though accused, since Democrats form it as an accusation, announced this many years following the end of his presidency.

Another is that Bush WANTED war with Iraq. They never troubled themselves to study the man. They did not pick up on his actions.

Let's walk through his actions of that period to see if he acted like a man wanting a war.
Saddam had something like a year of notice that Bush would send an invasion force. Sending the force did not mean though that Bush desired them being in combat.

Bush did not want those men to be shot at.

He crafted a plan to persuade Saddam to bail out.

The problem for Bush was the French. They whispered in Saddam's ear that Bush would not invade. That he in short was only bluffing.

When Bush sent a force, his idea was that in the face of a super power, Saddam would be a coward and want out of that problem and would vacate his power.

The French had money interests in Iraq and did not mind damaging Bush so long as they protected their profits.

Now, how can one test this?
1. Read Gen. Tommy Franks book. He commanded both wars.
2. Read Bushs book.
3. Read what Paul Bremer said in his book.
4. Read Rumsfelds book.
5. Read Cheneys book.

Surely if I am wrong, one of those authors would tell a different story.

It is darned hard for two people to give the same account much less 5 of them.

Then you have Gen. Mike DeLongs book that I also read and he confirms this is the accurate story.

Yet as I speak truth, based on actual witnesses, Democrats persist in telling the grand lie.

Want to read the lie?

This is it.

They allege that when Bush became potus, he was intending to invade Iraq.

What evidence do they have. Not a damned bit.

[aboutime]

One elementary word yet I find it beng the subject of conversation.

Truth is not subjective. I agree entirely with the remark in quotes.

False is harder to piin down than truth since FALSE is accepted by many though it is easy to prove it is false.

Truth remains.

Let me give you an example.

Reagan had alzheimers as president.

Democrats have told me over and over that is a TRUE statement.

So, what has been their proof, what facts used to back up their remarks?

I have at no time got proof offered to me.

I counter that the FACT is that RR was very carefully examined by his doctor when he was president. He was asked once Reagan stated he had the disease, "Did RR have Alzheimers?"

The Dr stated that RR NEVER showed the slightest sign of the disease.

Democrats refuse to accept this. They claim the Dr. would not know.

My first wife suffers this ailment. The last time I saw her, some 5 years back, I spotted right off that she had memory problems. I did not call it what it later turned out to be, but she had it.

Reagan though accused, since Democrats form it as an accusation, announced this many years following the end of his presidency.

Another is that Bush WANTED war with Iraq. They never troubled themselves to study the man. They did not pick up on his actions.

Let's walk through his actions of that period to see if he acted like a man wanting a war.
Saddam had something like a year of notice that Bush would send an invasion force. Sending the force did not mean though that Bush desired them being in combat.

Bush did not want those men to be shot at.

He crafted a plan to persuade Saddam to bail out.

The problem for Bush was the French. They whispered in Saddam's ear that Bush would not invade. That he in short was only bluffing.

When Bush sent a force, his idea was that in the face of a super power, Saddam would be a coward and want out of that problem and would vacate his power.

The French had money interests in Iraq and did not mind damaging Bush so long as they protected their profits.

Now, how can one test this?
1. Read Gen. Tommy Franks book. He commanded both wars.
2. Read Bushs book.
3. Read what Paul Bremer said in his book.
4. Read Rumsfelds book.
5. Read Cheneys book.

Surely if I am wrong, one of those authors would tell a different story.

It is darned hard for two people to give the same account much less 5 of them.

Then you have Gen. Mike DeLongs book that I also read and he confirms this is the accurate story.

Yet as I speak truth, based on actual witnesses, Democrats persist in telling the grand lie.

Want to read the lie?

This is it.

They allege that when Bush became potus, he was intending to invade Iraq.

What evidence do they have. Not a damned bit.



Robert. Agreed, across the board with you.
Sadly for the Liberal, Democrats who swear by their false accusations, better known as lies.
They STILL have never succeeded, nor have they been able to CHANGE the TRUTH.
They can deny it, and make up other lies to hide from it. But it always remains...THE TRUTH.

[Robert A Whit]

Let me try to shed some light on the argument over Muslims.

Any movement has within it, some who given the chance, would bolt from that group.

When people AGREE with the plans laid out, though they have not yet killed, can any of us afford to indulge them and defend them?

Germany had Hitler and his Mein Kampf. His struggle in other words.

Muslims have their book too. The Koran.

How devoted are they to that book?

Tell a Christian you burned his Bible and he says, I turn my cheek and buy another.

Tell a Muslim that and he wants you dead.

The Koran has in it's covers, the roadmap to how to make the world fall in line and convert or die.

It is a diabolical book.

[aboutime]

Let me try to shed some light on the argument over Muslims.

Any movement has within it, some who given the chance, would bolt from that group.

When people AGREE with the plans laid out, though they have not yet killed, can any of us afford to indulge them and defend them?

Germany had Hitler and his Mein Kampf. His struggle in other words.

Muslims have their book too. The Koran.

How devoted are they to that book?

Tell a Christian you burned his Bible and he says, I turn my cheek and buy another.

Tell a Muslim that and he wants you dead.

The Koran has in it's covers, the roadmap to how to make the world fall in line and convert or die.

It is a diabolical book.

Robert. Once again. I totally agree. It seems you are preaching to the choir here.
Those that must disagree, seem unwilling to touch your posts with a Ten Foot Pole.
Also. Your words above, and previously. Obviously cause some much anger as well.
We know. They feel strongly, and disagree. But, since they have no real, logical arguments to bring here.
They just remain quiet, and hope the problem will just fade away like General MacArthur.

[Missileman]

Let me try to shed some light on the argument over Muslims.

Any movement has within it, some who given the chance, would bolt from that group.

When people AGREE with the plans laid out, though they have not yet killed, can any of us afford to indulge them and defend them?

Germany had Hitler and his Mein Kampf. His struggle in other words.

Muslims have their book too. The Koran.

How devoted are they to that book?

Tell a Christian you burned his Bible and he says, I turn my cheek and buy another.

Tell a Muslim that and he wants you dead.

The Koran has in it's covers, the roadmap to how to make the world fall in line and convert or die.

It is a diabolical book.

Unfortunately, nothing you've listed here has shed any light on what the truth is theologically. It is also unfortunate that we'll likely never have access to that information while alive...it could end a lot of the BS.

[Robert A Whit]

Unfortunately, nothing you've listed here has shed any light on what the truth is theologically. It is also unfortunate that we'll likely never have access to that information while alive...it could end a lot of the BS.

That is correct. My aim was to try to explain their view rather than explain if some theology is right or wrong. For that, I plan to see what God says.

Would any of us join a group that has a book at it's core that visits so much evil on the world as does the Koran?

There is some serious murdering going on in the name of that book.

I spoke on a thread of knowing Sia who was born and college educated in Iran.

For years I knew he was a Muslim.

Sia to me seemed harmless enough.

One day he tells me he became a Catholic.

I am not that dumb.

I figured if he was still a Muslim he would out himself by the answer to my one question.

Sia, is the Muslim religion a violent religion?

With no hesitation, Sia says it is violent. He says that is one core reason he changed to being a Catholic.

Tell you this much, I sure hope that one fine day I don't see him in the news after some serious killing. They will lie and I have learned they are told to lie.

So, SIA ... DID YOU LIE TO ME MAN?

[aboutime]

Unfortunately, nothing you've listed here has shed any light on what the truth is theologically. It is also unfortunate that we'll likely never have access to that information while alive...it could end a lot of the BS.



Missileman. What you call BS. Is that just more of the same? How do you know what the truth really is? Who appointed you as the sole authority to make claims NOT EVEN YOU can back up?

If none of it is true. As you seem to be saying above. What is it you tell us...we will never know, or have access to while alive?

If it doesn't exist. Isn't true.

PROVE IT.

[Missileman]

That is correct. My aim was to try to explain their view rather than explain if some theology is right or wrong. For that, I plan to see what God says.

Would any of us join a group that has a book at it's core that visits so much evil on the world as does the Koran?

There is some serious murdering going on in the name of that book.

I spoke on a thread of knowing Sia who was born and college educated in Iran.

For years I knew he was a Muslim.

Sia to me seemed harmless enough.

One day he tells me he became a Catholic.

I am not that dumb.

I figured if he was still a Muslim he would out himself by the answer to my one question.

Sia, is the Muslim religion a violent religion?

With no hesitation, Sia says it is violent. He says that is one core reason he changed to being a Catholic.

Tell you this much, I sure hope that one fine day I don't see him in the news after some serious killing. They will lie and I have learned they are told to lie.

So, SIA ... DID YOU LIE TO ME MAN?

Our main problem is with Muslims born into the faith, not those who've converted. I don't think a sane, rational person could ignore the track record and accept Islam as the truth without being born and brainwashed into it.

[Missileman]

Missileman. What you call BS. Is that just more of the same? How do you know what the truth really is? Who appointed you as the sole authority to make claims NOT EVEN YOU can back up?

If none of it is true. As you seem to be saying above. What is it you tell us...we will never know, or have access to while alive?

If it doesn't exist. Isn't true.

PROVE IT.

My post is in simple, straight-forward English. If you weren't expending so much effort trying to argue against what I've written(for the sake of arguing against me) you might have enough cerebral capacity left to comprehend what I actually wrote.

[Robert A Whit]

Unfortunately, nothing you've listed here has shed any light on what the truth is theologically. It is also unfortunate that we'll likely never have access to that information while alive...it could end a lot of the BS.


Our main problem is with Muslims born into the faith, not those who've converted. I don't think a sane, rational person could ignore the track record and accept Islam as the truth without being born and brainwashed into it.

Sia was born into the religion and lived in CA with his family. Sia was an interesting guy. Though a Muslim, he sure loved the women. He spent a lot of time discussing with me how he could seduce women. He was fond of going to San Francisco and clubs there looking for some tail.

He used to photograph his women and e mail me their photos.

Maybe that helped convert him. I dunno.

He may have bailed out of CA and moved to Phoenix before the shinola hit the fan.

[Missileman]

Sia was born into the religion and lived in CA with his family. Sia was an interesting guy. Though a Muslim, he sure loved the women. He spent a lot of time discussing with me how he could seduce women. He was fond of going to San Francisco and clubs there looking for some tail.

He used to photograph his women and e mail me their photos.

Maybe that helped convert him. I dunno.

He may have bailed out of CA and moved to Phoenix before the shinola hit the fan.

Westernization is likely the key to solving them problem.

[aboutime]

My post is in simple, straight-forward English. If you weren't expending so much effort trying to argue against what I've written(for the sake of arguing against me) you might have enough cerebral capacity left to comprehend what I actually wrote.

Missileman. So, what are you arguing with me about? I asked you simple, straight-forward English questions, and you still didn't answer any of them, and instead. Tried to Impress yourself by tying more than one word together with your own mentally challenged attempts to say something that MIGHT make sense....if you succeed in impressing YOURSELF.

[Missileman]

Missileman. So, what are you arguing with me about? I asked you simple, straight-forward English questions, and you still didn't answer any of them, and instead. Tried to Impress yourself by tying more than one word together with your own mentally challenged attempts to say something that MIGHT make sense....if you succeed in impressing YOURSELF.

When you ask a question of me that's based on something I've written, and not some figment of your illiteracy, I'll be happy to answer you.

[aboutime]

When you ask a question of me that's based on something I've written, and not some figment of your illiteracy, I'll be happy to answer you.


I'm saddened to see you expose your own illiteracy with more ignorance as a cheap response. But I'll forgive you. You can't help it.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I'm saddened to see you expose your own illiteracy with more ignorance as a cheap response. But I'll forgive you. You can't help it.

My friend have you ever seen the little dog on the chain in the front yard behind the fence that barks at every big dog that comes by? Then first time that its taken off the chain it suddenly will not bark at the other big dogs!
We have a little dog here yelping and barking...:laugh2:--Tyr

[aboutime]

My friend have you ever seen the little dog on the chain in the front yard behind the fence that barks at every big dog that comes by? Then first time that its taken off the chain it suddenly will not bark at the other big dogs!
We have a little dog here yelping and barking...:laugh2:--Tyr


Tyr. Yep. I know what you are talking about. So, we should just throw him a BONE, and forget it happened?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

This thread was dedicated to the topic of taking a stand. To some such a topic likely has little to no meaning but to others it may strike a chord. Its to those readers that I post my words about the great danger Islam and its ultimate goal presents to our nation and its survival! This can not be stressed to much IMHO.

To my surprise , my original first post received more condemnation than I had thought possible. This to me clearly points to how far our nation has fallen when many of its citizens are so quick to defend its enemies and abandone the values and priniciples so represented in our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Ever quick to try to point to my doing so which I have not done. I have attempted to sound the alarm only to get others to face the threat. I have not called for any illegal, unconstitutional actions to be taken. Nor will I in regards to this matter. For I am a firm believer in the Rule of Law.

My critics here are so quick to demand that I give my remedy to this threat even while they declare that there is no threat! I view that as trying to ride the horse after having shot it for being of no use! Yet I have in my own dastardly way, remained true to my principles and the TRUTH. I have been very firm in my stand and in my exspressed desire that holds it is not up to me to solve this problem but rather once known and actually faced its up to our citizenry as a whole. That is in itself a daunting task but the fields were once deep forests of many trees and the first tree had to be removed to make room to grow crops. America sprang from that clearing and industry and progress calls for sacrifice. As so often does survival!

I am no stranger to facing hard and intense opposition and here proved to be no exception. I've been listed as a bigot, racist, troublemaker, liar, traitor, terrorist, hatemonger, coward, etc. Yet my only course has been to post link after link of facts and true news about actual deeds of evil carried out by our nation's enemies. Because of that I 've been called such names and made out to be a troublemaker. So be it, Im not complaining here. I am firmly denying the accusations. Knowing that I will be judged by my words , I do not fear the criticisms of others , nor seek to falsely defend my works. I am concious , however , of having once lost my temper thus ill-serving the task I had set for myself. In that time of error,often the most serious topics are the most ridiculed and the most honorable enterprises are viewed with the deepest suspicion. Moreover, the minds of many people are such that they are not disposed to believe anything new and strange and outside their experience unless it is proved by convincing evidence and the testimony of realible men. So, in order to increase confidence in my words and gain a more worthy appreciation for its truth , I have thought it worthwhile to explain briefly my purpose and goals. In this way I trust I may escape the absurd but shameful charges placed against my character by those opponents whose fertile imaginations prove that they are ill-disposed persons that seek to devise rejection of the truth about Islam by attacking the messenger rather than any adequate refutation of the message!

In short, I have often waged attacks back upon my accusers rather than pointing out the folly of their false attacks upon my character and then demanding that they disprove the message rather than lie about the messenger..This I shall attempt to remedy.

Subject is Islam and its attempt to rule all humans by force . Primarily we are discussing this in regards to its ongoing activities in America with the necessary references to Islam activities around the world. To that end I have posted many links and much information with much more to come. To those opposing I say refute my sources or my facts but knock off the character attacks because Im not the subject . The evidence that I present is either to be refuted, ignored or agreed with , any other response will get a big --:laugh2:-from me. A
FITTING RESPONSE TO SUCH BASELESS PERSONAL ATTACKS. As I have not the time to waste on those too damn lazy to post a logical or well reasoned reply..-Tyr

[Missileman]

So, we should just throw him a BONE, and forget it happened?

With all the time you two spend stroking each other's egos, that sounds suspiciously like some kinda homo code. I'll pass, thanks. You two can carry on.

[Robert A Whit]

Westernization is likely the key to solving them problem.

I appraised real estate in the SF Bay Area for years until 1997. In the course of my work, I appraised a lot of homes for Iranians. I had some mortgage people from Iran as customers.

Funny how popular you get by being an appraiser of homes. Everybody wanted to be my best friend.

Well, that is how I got to know so many of them. I was told by some brothers how they went back to Iran and smuggled in hard liquor in gasoline cans. They sure believe in punishing women who have sex outside of marriage yet they don't mind at all having ses with them. I could not figure that one out. Seems they want it both ways.

Sia want back to Iran for a family approved marriage as I recall his story but did not like her at all. And still married her. Then dumped her by abandoning her in Iran and coming back to CA.

Funny thing is, my story may get you to think of him as some young guy. Sia was in college and burned American Flags in the street in the Carter presidency era and has to be around 54 by now.

[Dilloduck]

So the question at hand is whether or not Islam is trying to control humans by force ?

[fj1200]

This thread was dedicated to the topic of taking a stand. To some such a topic likely has little to no meaning but to others it may strike a chord. Its to those readers that I post my words about the great danger Islam and its ultimate goal presents to our nation and its survival! This can not be stressed to much IMHO.

To my surprise , my original first post received more condemnation than I had thought possible. This to me clearly points to how far our nation has fallen when many of its citizens are so quick to defend its enemies and abandone the values and priniciples so represented in our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Ever quick to try to point to my doing so which I have not done. I have attempted to sound the alarm only to get others to face the threat. I have not called for any illegal, unconstitutional actions to be taken. Nor will I in regards to this matter. For I am a firm believer in the Rule of Law.

My critics here are so quick to demand that I give my remedy to this threat even while they declare that there is no threat! I view that as trying to ride the horse after having shot it for being of no use! Yet I have in my own dastardly way, remained true to my principles and the TRUTH. I have been very firm in my stand and in my exspressed desire that holds it is not up to me to solve this problem but rather once known and actually faced its up to our citizenry as a whole. That is in itself a daunting task but the fields were once deep forests of many trees and the first tree had to be removed to make room to grow crops. America sprang from that clearing and industry and progress calls for sacrifice. As so often does survival!

I am no stranger to facing hard and intense opposition and here proved to be no exception. I've been listed as a bigot, racist, troublemaker, liar, traitor, terrorist, hatemonger, coward, etc. Yet my only course has been to post link after link of facts and true news about actual deeds of evil carried out by our nation's enemies. Because of that I 've been called such names and made out to be a troublemaker. So be it, Im not complaining here. I am firmly denying the accusations. Knowing that I will be judged by my words , I do not fear the criticisms of others , nor seek to falsely defend my works. I am concious , however , of having once lost my temper thus ill-serving the task I had set for myself. In that time of error,often the most serious topics are the most ridiculed and the most honorable enterprises are viewed with the deepest suspicion. Moreover, the minds of many people are such that they are not disposed to believe anything new and strange and outside their experience unless it is proved by convincing evidence and the testimony of realible men. So, in order to increase confidence in my words and gain a more worthy appreciation for its truth , I have thought it worthwhile to explain briefly my purpose and goals. In this way I trust I may escape the absurd but shameful charges placed against my character by those opponents whose fertile imaginations prove that they are ill-disposed persons that seek to devise rejection of the truth about Islam by attacking the messenger rather than any adequate refutation of the message!

In short, I have often waged attacks back upon my accusers rather than pointing out the folly of their false attacks upon my character and then demanding that they disprove the message rather than lie about the messenger..This I shall attempt to remedy.

Subject is Islam and its attempt to rule all humans by force . Primarily we are discussing this in regards to its ongoing activities in America with the necessary references to Islam activities around the world. To that end I have posted many links and much information with much more to come. To those opposing I say refute my sources or my facts but knock off the character attacks because Im not the subject . The evidence that I present is either to be refuted, ignored or agreed with , any other response will get a big --:laugh2:-from me. A
FITTING RESPONSE TO SUCH BASELESS PERSONAL ATTACKS. As I have not the time to waste on those too damn lazy to post a logical or well reasoned reply..-Tyr



Yes, yes, you're oppressed, what specific actions are you suggesting?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2012/07/obamas-.html

The following is based on a May 22, 1991 document discovered by the FBI.

Understanding the Role of the Muslim Brotherhood in North AmericaThe process of settlement is a "Civilization-Jihadist Process" and all the word means. The
Ikhwan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikhwan)[Arabic for brothers] must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad to eliminate and destroy the Western civilization from within, and sabotage its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers, so that it is eliminated, and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions.
Without this level of understanding, we are not up to the challenge and have not yet prepared ourselves for Jihad. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who choose to slack. But, would the slackers and the Mujahedeen be equal. [from Section Four: The Process of Settlement (http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=mpg&mpid=387&link=625) ]

Top U.S. Islamic Group Calls for ‘Gun Control’ Patrick Poole, (http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/07/23/top-u-s-islamic-group-calls-for-gun-control/) July 24, 2012
Fresh off of handing a “diversity” award (http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/07/05/obamas-shariah-czar-mohamed-magid-hands-diversity-award-to-jew-hater-dawud-walid/) to outspoken Jew-hater DawudWalid, the Islamic Society of North America (http://www.isna.net/Home.aspx) (ISNA) is moving on to a new outrage by launching an attack on the U.S. Constitution.
The current issue of ISNA’s bi-monthly magazine Islamic Horizons carries an article about ISNA’s demand for gun control.
Specifically, the article, with the unambiguous title “ISNA Seeks Gun Control,” cites the shooting of Trayvon Martin to explain their opposition to S. 2188 (http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-s2188/show), the “National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act of 2012,” and S. 2213 (http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-s2213/show), the “Respecting States’ Rights and Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2012.”
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just more proof that we must be ever vigilant. That we must wake up our fellow citizens! The Islamists are actively pursuing their agenda, why arent we countering?-Tyr

[fj1200]

... what specific actions are you suggesting?


Do you suggest that we outlaw Islam in America ?


How about American Muslims ? What's the plan with them ?

My mistake if an answer to these questions were answered amidst the rantings and chest thumpings.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

My mistake if an answer to these questions were answered amidst the rantings and chest thumpings.

1. How about first we as a nation admit the problem!!???
2. Then we as a nation, the government , form a plan to stop Islams goal of destroying us.

How about you guys that are all for ignoring or denying the problem present your case instead of asking question after question? Doing so in an attempt to find something else to ridicule, deny or just generally piss and moan about. Either agree, refute my linked facts or ignore but this sideshow type stuff isnt cutting it.

Give your own suggestions regardless of whether they agree or not.
Demanding that I give a specific plan is silly. I've given a general plan several times in my replies here.
Im not president or dictator so why expect me to have the solution?
Its a very complex problem of how to limit Islam within the context of not denying them their religious freedom!
We have to stay within the Constitution rights they have but also stop the planned subversion and violence that will surely come.

Why expect me to give a solution to a problem you guys have so far denied exists!!??-Tyr

[tailfins]

1. How about first we as a nation admit the problem!!???
2. Then we as a nation, the government , form a plan to stop Islams goal of destroying us.

How about you guys that are all for ignoring or denying the problem present your case instead of asking question after question? Doing so in an attempt to find something else to ridicule, deny or just generally piss and moan about. Either agree, refute my linked facts or ignore but this sideshow type stuff isnt cutting it.

Give your own suggestions regardless of whether they agree or not.
Demanding that I give a specific plan is silly. I've given a general plan several times in my replies here.
Im not president or dictator so why expect me to have the solution?
Its a very complex problem of how to limit Islam within the context of not denying them their religious freedom!
We have to stay within the Constitution rights they have but also stop the planned subversion and violence that will surely come.

Why expect me to give a solution to a problem you guys have so far denied exists!!??-Tyr



I never denied a problem exists. I ask for a solution because uncontrolled hatred can result in stupid responses. Arson, discrimination and harassment of US citizens that happen to be Muslim come to mind. I'm all for a well thought out plan using the world's best experts on the subject matter with Benjamin Netanyahu topping that list.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I never denied a problem exists. I ask for a solution because uncontrolled hatred can result in stupid responses. Arson, discrimination and harassment of US citizens that happen to be Muslim come to mind. I'm all for a well thought out plan using the world's best experts on the subject matter with Benjamin Netanyahu topping that list.

Finally , one that agrees the problem is real! -:clap:
Although not sure why Bibi should be involved in America's course of action.
What do you propose that Bibi could offer us? As we have a strong Constitution /Bill of Rights that Bibi doesnt have to deal with in Israel.
No doubt that he has knowledge but what of it could we use and it not Unconstitutional?-Tyr

[tailfins]

Finally , one that agrees the problem is real! -:clap:
Although not sure why Bibi should be involved in America's course of action.
What do you propose that Bibi could offer us? As we have a strong Constitution /Bill of Rights that Bibi doesnt have to deal with in Israel.
No doubt that he has knowledge but what of it could we use and it not Unconstitutional?-Tyr

Being that Bibi is US educated, I'm confident he has a solid understanding of the US Constitution. What worries me is uneducated idiots committing criminal acts.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Being that Bibi is US educated, I'm confident he has a solid understanding of the US Constitution. What worries me is uneducated idiots committing criminal acts.

The criminal acts should all be prosecuted. For they hamper addressing the problem in a just and accurate manner.

My suggestion is that first step is to form a plan on how to insure that Sharia law can never be a part of our Judicial system. By doing that we have solved already a very large part of the problem. Its a very good start IMHO.-Tyr

[Dilloduck]

That's a great start--I suggest you go with it.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

That's a great start--I suggest you go with it.

Thank you, your approval ,means so very much. Now that I have it. I'll proceed fullspeed ahead!;)

Be looking for a "binder" complete with my finished plan soon. Color illustrations and all. :laugh2: :laugh:

[mundame]

So the question at hand is whether or not Islam is trying to control humans by force ?


Surely there is no question about that?

[Dilloduck]

Surely there is no question about that?


are they attacking you too ?

[fj1200]

1. How about first we as a nation admit the problem!!???
2. Then we as a nation, the government , form a plan to stop Islams goal of destroying us.

1. That there is terrorism? Sure, it's a problem.
2. I thought that was part of your "stand."


How about you guys that are all for ignoring or denying the problem present your case instead of asking question after question? Doing so in an attempt to find something else to ridicule, deny or just generally piss and moan about. Either agree, refute my linked facts or ignore but this sideshow type stuff isnt cutting it.

What case should we be presenting? Your the one taking the stand. I'm also not sure what "facts" we should be refuting or that we are ignoring; you post links to terrorism and bad people doing bad things. Very little to disagree with there.


Give your own suggestions regardless of whether they agree or not.
Demanding that I give a specific plan is silly. I've given a general plan several times in my replies here.
Im not president or dictator so why expect me to have the solution?
Its a very complex problem of how to limit Islam within the context of not denying them their religious freedom!
We have to stay within the Constitution rights they have but also stop the planned subversion and violence that will surely come.

Why expect me to give a solution to a problem you guys have so far denied exists!!??-Tyr



Please, reiterate that general plan.


The criminal acts should all be prosecuted. For they hamper addressing the problem in a just and accurate manner.

My suggestion is that first step is to form a plan on how to insure that Sharia law can never be a part of our Judicial system. By doing that we have solved already a very large part of the problem. Its a very good start IMHO.-Tyr

Prosecuting criminal acts? Sure, full agreement.
A plan to stop Sharia? Sure, the Constitution is supreme, full agreement. I'm not sure however that "solving" that particular problem that doesn't even really exist is a very good start. I'd say before we worry about that we need to free ourselves from the oppressive British rule. Huzzah, we're free!

[Abbey Marie]

I never denied a problem exists. I ask for a solution because uncontrolled hatred can result in stupid responses. Arson, discrimination and harassment of US citizens that happen to be Muslim come to mind. I'm all for a well thought out plan using the world's best experts on the subject matter with Benjamin Netanyahu topping that list.

I'm curious-
Let's say you post this: "Poverty is a very bad thing. We need to be aware of it creeping up on us. It's a real threat to our country".

Which response of mine would you think the better of the two:

1. You're right, poverty is bad for us and growing, and we should do all we can to minimize it's effects.

OR

2. You're crazy; poverty isn't that bad. It's a minor problem at best. Prove it's bad. Oh, and even though it isn't a problem, your warning us about it is ridiculous- just tell us in detail how you would solve it.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

1. That there is terrorism? Sure, it's a problem.
2. I thought that was part of your "stand."



What case should we be presenting? Your the one taking the stand. I'm also not sure what "facts" we should be refuting or that we are ignoring; you post links to terrorism and bad people doing bad things. Very little to disagree with there.



Please, reiterate that general plan.





Prosecuting criminal acts? Sure, full agreement.
A plan to stop Sharia? Sure, the Constitution is supreme, full agreement. I'm not sure however that "solving" that particular problem that doesn't even really exist is a very good start. I'd say before we worry about that we need to free ourselves from the oppressive British rule. Huzzah, we're free!


Yes, yes, you're oppressed, what specific actions are you suggesting?

:laugh2:

[Missileman]

I'm curious-
Let's say you post this: "Poverty is a very bad thing. We need to be aware of it creeping up on us. It's a real threat to our country".

Which response of mine would you think the better of the two:

1. You're right, poverty is bad for us and growing, and we should do all we can to minimize it's effects.

OR

2. You're crazy; poverty isn't that bad. It's a minor problem at best. Prove it's bad. Oh, and even though it isn't a problem, your warning us about it is ridiculous- just tell us in detail how you would solve it.

You think that's an accurate assessment of the argument?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I'm curious-
Let's say you post this: "Poverty is a very bad thing. We need to be aware of it creeping up on us. It's a real threat to our country".

Which response of mine would you think the better of the two:

1. You're right, poverty is bad for us and growing, and we should do all we can to minimize it's effects.

OR

2. You're crazy; poverty isn't that bad. It's a minor problem at best. Prove it's bad. Oh, and even though it isn't a problem, your warning us about it is ridiculous- just tell us in detail how you would solve it.

Exactly right you are and that is what I meant when I stated they shoot the horse then try to ride it too. Nothing slow about these critics, they criticise it as poppycock= not a real problem, then they demand specific plans to address the "not a real problem" .
I've given a general plan that starts with insuring that Sharia Law is never allowed a foothold here in our Justice system yet thats not good enough for these o' so fair critics. Snide remarks and potshots is about all they seek to fire now. Anything to get away from and ignore the evidence ,documented, linked and presented so far. As I could flood this thread with verified information of the murdering carnage wrecked upon on innocent people (women and children included) by the Islamists just from one of the many sites that are dedicated to preserving evidence of this great atrocity visited upon the entire world by Islam.

That your number 2 is chosen so often by some few here clearly reveals their weakness, their failure and their deliberate plan of deception ,spin and false approval to set supposed traps.. The truth isnt enough they demand more. Alas, such demands that ignore the truth already given only seek more facts in which to poo-poo and ridicule IMHO..
They want to disagree without presenting any counterpoints or refuting the facts already provided in the links-This thread is about warning those that do not know , have never considered, and many that have been led to believe that its not a problem. This great site has many readers that do not join to post but they read here. I post for them to read and consider too. Tyr

[Abbey Marie]

You think that's an accurate assessment of the argument?

I can't say for sure as I have not had the desire nor the time to read every lenghty post, but overall, I think it is the gist of it. I was struck mostly by the dual responses of "It's not a real problem" and "How would you fix it?".
I could be wrong- what do you think is an accurate (objective) assessment?

[Missileman]

I can't say for sure as I have not had the desire nor the time to read every lenghty post, but overall, I think it is the gist of it. I was struck mostly by the dual responses of "It's not a real problem" and "How would you fix it?".
I could be wrong- what do you think is an accurate (objective) assessment?

It's been more like:

"Poverty is bad. All poor people suck. Poor people are trying to destroy our economy. Poor people need to be stopped."

Some have argued that while poverty is bad, not all poor people are trying to destroy our economy. Others have asked, "How would you stop poor people?". The replies have been mostly a repetition of "Poverty is bad. All poor people suck. Poor people are trying to destroy our economy. Poor people need to be stopped."

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

It's been more like:

"Poverty is bad. All poor people suck. Poor people are trying to destroy our economy. Poor people need to be stopped."

Some have argued that while poverty is bad, not all poor people are trying to destroy our economy. Others have asked, "How would you stop poor people?". The replies have been mostly a repetition of "Poverty is bad. All poor people suck. Poor people are trying to destroy our economy. Poor people need to be stopped."

:laugh2:

[Dilloduck]

The argument is whether the entire religion of Islam is the problem OR is it just certain sects, behaviors, imams or individual muslims.

[fj1200]

http://oneway2day.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/bho-strait-jacket-insane_thumb.jpg?w=263&h=344

I've taken the liberty of finding a more appropriate emoticon.

You're welcome.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Time for some more truth and information to consider.-Tyr
http://brie-hoffman.hubpages.com/hub/Muslim-World-how-muslims-will-take-over-the-world-via-population-growth


Muslim World: how Muslims will take over the world via population growth





http://s2.hubimg.com/u/3236089_f260.jpg





In case you didn't know Islam is one of the fastest growing religions in the entire world. Some statisticians have said that for every 1 non-Muslim child born there are 8 Muslim children born in the world and that number is conservative. Others say that the rate is more like 3 to 1. Regardless of the number, think about that. The Muslims don't have to do anything, they will rule the world by virtue of their numbers.
According to America Speaks Inc.com the birth rate a society needs to break even and not start to disappear is 2.1 babies per woman. Anything less than that, the culture disappears in a matter of three generations or more. The math can’t be argued. No culture has ever survived once it reached the breaking point 1.3 babies per woman. The United States birth rate is 2.1. Canada, New Zealand, Germany, Russia, Spain and Italy are all between 1 and 2 percent.
Now let’s take a look at some Muslims countries, Afghanistan is 47.02 per 1000 people, Albania 15.08 per 1000 people, Niger 7.46, Mali 7.42, Somalia 6.76, Afghanistan 6.69,Yemen 6.58. I think you can start to get the idea here. Muslim populations are filling up the birth shortfalls all throughout Europe and have already started taking over the European culture.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
War is about attrition. The baby war they win because we seek to limit our family size, they do not. More babies with them equals more warriors for Allah. America had better wake up to this truly dangerous fact! They can win by numbers or even win by our appeasement and surrender by way of political concessions but win they plan on . And that winning will include the murder of ALL THAT RESIST!-TYR

[fj1200]

Time for some more truth and information to consider.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
War is about attrition. The baby war they win because we seek to limit our family size, they do not.

Birth rates typically correlate to levels of development. Higher developed economies have smaller families where those from poor countries will have more kids.

[Drummond]

The argument is whether the entire religion of Islam is the problem OR is it just certain sects, behaviors, imams or individual muslims.

Well, put it this way. Considering how many countries where Islam is dominant then behave in savage ways .. whether this ranges from the effects of the application of Sharia Law, to intolerance to anyone daring not to be Islamic, to sponsoring terrorism, or even (e.g courtesy of an outfit like Hamas) committing their territory to the exporting of terrorism ... how big a problem do YOU think it is ??

Try asking Israelis that question, Dilloduck, and see what you're told.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

It's been more like:

"Poverty is bad. All poor people suck. Poor people are trying to destroy our economy. Poor people need to be stopped."

Some have argued that while poverty is bad, not all poor people are trying to destroy our economy. Others have asked, "How would you stop poor people?". The replies have been mostly a repetition of "Poverty is bad. All poor people suck. Poor people are trying to destroy our economy. Poor people need to be stopped."


No, its been more like shining the light of truth onto a "socalled religion" that is a quasi political/militant/religious movement.
Found this on another thread but its brilliant and accurately applies to why we must as a nation take a strong stand.-Tyr

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?37399-Jaffa-The-Orange-s-Clockwork/page2

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/icons/icon1.png

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Dilloduck http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=586479#post586479)
Deal in secretive ways. Countries spy on each other all the time and engage in propaganda, black ops and disinformation.




..

Originally Posted by Drummonds

OK. I note your description of what you've had in mind.

So, Dilloduck, you had this in mind to compare against Islam's own capacity for deceptiveness - surely meaning (and if not, why think of drawing the parallel ?) that your description is an equivalent.

Now, tell me why Islam would need to act in accordance with the thinking and the methodology YOU describe. Islam SPIES ? Islam engages in PROPAGANDA ? Islam ever considers 'black ops' and 'disinformation' ?

However much (or however little) - in order to want to now wriggle OUT of that comparison - you might now be tempted to say the comparison YOU've drawn doesn't apply ... what you are REALLY describing is a power, or force, acting as a nation would. With competing nations, armed, potentially hostile, playing political games, much of it concerned with dodgy dealing, misdirection, hostile gamesmanship, some of it at least intended to do great harm.

BUT, it's a curious way for A RELIGION to behave, or think, now isn't it ?

I see but only one way of viewing a religion that would happily use such methods .. one thinking it appropriate. Such a religion must want to compete for dominance. To drive ahead, by fair means OR FOUL, AND NOT CARING ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE, can only mean that the chief driving force is dominance and conquest. And, if - as MUST BE THE CASE - MORALITY ISN'T A CONSTRAINING FACTOR, then that makes it a religion capable of ANYTHING.

This is exactly what we see, though, isn't it ? A religion spawning terrorism, where its followers exult in the harm done in the name of that religion. And this, folks, is all a very far cry from any 'religion of peace' that Islam advertises itself as being.

Still ... 'propaganda', 'disinformation' ... you said it yourself, Dilloduck. Each accounts for the fiction of 'peacefulness'. The reality is something we periodically suffer, at the hands of conquest-driven savages.

Dilloduck, I thank you for your insight.

[Robert A Whit]

This thread was dedicated to the topic of taking a stand. To some such a topic likely has little to no meaning but to others it may strike a chord. Its to those readers that I post my words about the great danger Islam and its ultimate goal presents to our nation and its survival! This can not be stressed to much IMHO.

To my surprise , my original first post received more condemnation than I had thought possible. This to me clearly points to how far our nation has fallen when many of its citizens are so quick to defend its enemies and abandone the values and priniciples so represented in our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Ever quick to try to point to my doing so which I have not done. I have attempted to sound the alarm only to get others to face the threat. I have not called for any illegal, unconstitutional actions to be taken. Nor will I in regards to this matter. For I am a firm believer in the Rule of Law.

My critics here are so quick to demand that I give my remedy to this threat even while they declare that there is no threat! I view that as trying to ride the horse after having shot it for being of no use! Yet I have in my own dastardly way, remained true to my principles and the TRUTH. I have been very firm in my stand and in my exspressed desire that holds it is not up to me to solve this problem but rather once known and actually faced its up to our citizenry as a whole. That is in itself a daunting task but the fields were once deep forests of many trees and the first tree had to be removed to make room to grow crops. America sprang from that clearing and industry and progress calls for sacrifice. As so often does survival!

I am no stranger to facing hard and intense opposition and here proved to be no exception. I've been listed as a bigot, racist, troublemaker, liar, traitor, terrorist, hatemonger, coward, etc. Yet my only course has been to post link after link of facts and true news about actual deeds of evil carried out by our nation's enemies. Because of that I 've been called such names and made out to be a troublemaker. So be it, Im not complaining here. I am firmly denying the accusations. Knowing that I will be judged by my words , I do not fear the criticisms of others , nor seek to falsely defend my works. I am concious , however , of having once lost my temper thus ill-serving the task I had set for myself. In that time of error,often the most serious topics are the most ridiculed and the most honorable enterprises are viewed with the deepest suspicion. Moreover, the minds of many people are such that they are not disposed to believe anything new and strange and outside their experience unless it is proved by convincing evidence and the testimony of realible men. So, in order to increase confidence in my words and gain a more worthy appreciation for its truth , I have thought it worthwhile to explain briefly my purpose and goals. In this way I trust I may escape the absurd but shameful charges placed against my character by those opponents whose fertile imaginations prove that they are ill-disposed persons that seek to devise rejection of the truth about Islam by attacking the messenger rather than any adequate refutation of the message!

In short, I have often waged attacks back upon my accusers rather than pointing out the folly of their false attacks upon my character and then demanding that they disprove the message rather than lie about the messenger..This I shall attempt to remedy.

Subject is Islam and its attempt to rule all humans by force . Primarily we are discussing this in regards to its ongoing activities in America with the necessary references to Islam activities around the world. To that end I have posted many links and much information with much more to come. To those opposing I say refute my sources or my facts but knock off the character attacks because Im not the subject . The evidence that I present is either to be refuted, ignored or agreed with , any other response will get a big --:laugh2:-from me. A
FITTING RESPONSE TO SUCH BASELESS PERSONAL ATTACKS. As I have not the time to waste on those too damn lazy to post a logical or well reasoned reply..-Tyr



At the moment, and I emphasize the word MOMENT, I don't FEAR Muslims in the USA. I don't fear the people, and if anything I do fear their dogma contained within their religion.

Now, we know that everywhere, the birth rate of Muslims remain very high.

If Muslims in the USA can manage to ignore the Koran and the Muslim leaders that call for the extermination, enslavement or banishment of the rest of us, let them tell us NOW.

Will they lie?

I understand that the Koran encourages them to lie to us.

I am pleased that I have weapons to defend myself. I can't count on the cops to be here all 24 hours to save me from attacks.

I encourage TYR and the rest of you to make sure you are armed. Also make sure you are trained in the case you need to shoot humans. Shooting animals is difficult enough, but the shooting of other humans is especially hard.

This country trained me to kill humans. Of course you must also be careful that you only do so when you are actually under attack. Don't go around looking for trouible. Don't be like the guy that shot that black boy in Florida. Even though the non black most likely will not be found guilty, don't think you are Wyatt Earp.

[Robert A Whit]

It's been more like:

"Poverty is bad. All poor people suck. Poor people are trying to destroy our economy. Poor people need to be stopped."

Some have argued that while poverty is bad, not all poor people are trying to destroy our economy. Others have asked, "How would you stop poor people?". The replies have been mostly a repetition of "Poverty is bad. All poor people suck. Poor people are trying to destroy our economy. Poor people need to be stopped."

Are poor people using explosives, even on their person to kill people?

Do poor people have a book they follow that calls for the elimination of the rich?

Wait, that is the Democratic party dogma. Forget it.

[Abbey Marie]

It's been more like:

"Poverty is bad. All poor people suck. Poor people are trying to destroy our economy. Poor people need to be stopped."

Some have argued that while poverty is bad, not all poor people are trying to destroy our economy. Others have asked, "How would you stop poor people?". The replies have been mostly a repetition of "Poverty is bad. All poor people suck. Poor people are trying to destroy our economy. Poor people need to be stopped."

Here's the correct analogy:
Poverty = Islam
Poor people=Arab people.

Folks appear to be saying the spread of tenets of Islam, Shari'a, etc., are the cause of the threat. Not the people on their own. I would assume that the OP wouldn't have a problem with non-Muslim Arabs or Indonesians, etc., coming here, and being vocal.

It's not poor people that are the problem but the poverty that runs their lives.

[Missileman]

Here's the correct analogy:
Poverty = Islam
Poor people=Arab people.

Folks appear to be saying the spread of tenets of Islam, Shari'a, etc., are the cause of the threat. Not the people on their own. I would assume that the OP wouldn't have a problem with non-Muslim Arabs or Indonesians, etc., coming here, and being vocal.

It's not poor people that are the problem but the poverty that runs their lives.


We make a big mistake letting muslims come in here on student visas. They are at war with us and everyone of them is a potential fighter for Jihad.-Tyr

I stand by my interpretation of the thread!

[Robert A Whit]

Here's the correct analogy:
Poverty = Islam
Poor people=Arab people.

Folks appear to be saying the spread of tenets of Islam, Shari'a, etc., are the cause of the threat. Not the people on their own. I would assume that the OP wouldn't have a problem with non-Muslim Arabs or Indonesians, etc., coming here, and being vocal.

It's not poor people that are the problem but the poverty that runs their lives.

That looks about right.

[Dilloduck]

Are all poor people muslims ?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Here's the correct analogy:
Poverty = Islam
Poor people=Arab people.

Folks appear to be saying the spread of tenets of Islam, Shari'a, etc., are the cause of the threat. Not the people on their own. I would assume that the OP wouldn't have a problem with non-Muslim Arabs or Indonesians, etc., coming here, and being vocal.

It's not poor people that are the problem but the poverty that runs their lives.

Exactly so. Islam had its days of glory from Conquests. Conquests in which it raped ,pillaged and burned taking the wealth from millions of its victims! Back then its militant arm reigned supreme and many tens of millions perished! The true history of Islam should be required reading in our schools but CAIR and other Islam propaganda entities will never allow that. What does that say when the truth about its origins and history are never allowed by an entity?

Islam ia a bit over 1400 years old and its glory days were those of its murdering spread, days its supporters poinmt to as its greatness! While they ignore that greatness was the product gained by the looting deaths of millions and their lives ,properties and inventions stolen to serve Islam!

Islam now seeks to start and spread that reign of terror yet again. Fact..
The absolute demand that they be allowed to get nukes points to that fact IMHO. --Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I've taken the liberty of finding a more appropriate emoticon.

You're welcome.
:laugh2:

[aboutime]

Are all poor people muslims ?

Why don't you tell us the answer to that question Dilloduck? First. Are you a Muslim? And, why would you ask such a question, despite how poor you are. Educationally.
Then show us a reason why you would suggest such an idea, other than to make some lame point?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

A most interesting thread ! Thanks to Tyr for it .. I've just now read it in greater detail.

From my own experience in the UK, it seems perfectly obvious that Islamists have three distinct ways of operating in order to achieve a form of dominance in a Society.

The first is through terrorism .. and not much needs to be said on that score. 9/11, the UK's '7/7' attack in London, the attack at the Atosha station in Spain .. and many more attacks besides, in various parts of the world. Through murder and mayhem, they hope that through acts of terrorism, the will to fight back can be sapped .. and, I'm sorry to say, this sometimes is successful.

The second, pivotal, means (aided and abetted by the Left) is through social incursion. Immigrants arrive, equipped with their cultural and religious identities, they take root in specific areas, form their own communities, all of which pushes out what was in the area they occupy beforehand. Demands are made, all of which serve the requirements of the invading Islamic culture and traditions. Integration is a non-starter ... always, those communities expect OTHERS to bend to THEM.

The third is through exploitation of indigenous freedoms. Demands are made to insist that concession after concession is made to them. Pressure groups form, and always citing either the race card, or the 'bigotry' card, they insist that anyone opposing them must be doing so through unacceptably antisocial means. This is particularly where the Left comes in ... Left-wingers insist that to speak out against them is evidence of racism or bigotry, and pressure groups invariably win out. Laws are passed, such as 'hatespeech' legislation, making strong criticism actionable in law. But more, the indigenous population becomes conditioned to revile anyone not conforming to these socially-conditioned imperatives.

Terrorism is a very 'blunt instrument' for Muslims to use ... though also a much-favoured one, as we've all seen.

Social incursion is less blunt, dealing in large measure with a form of physical invasion. Areas are occupied and, in essence, 'terraformed' to become Muslim in 'nature'.

Exploitative incursion is the most insidious. Through it, social conditioning is brought to bear, aided, as I've said, by the Left. People are pressured into believing that just THINKING of forms of opposition is wrong .. bigoted, racist, intolerant generally. So, belief-systems grow which always, but ALWAYS, lead to an ongoing process of evolving deference .. to Islam and to those practising it.

Folks, understand .. I am not theorising, just describing an ongoing reality in my own society !! Common throughout all of this is the sheer invasiveness of Islam. Islam, in my experience, has no interest in compromise that doesn't end up in achieving considerable advantage to ITS purposes, and more often than not compromise isn't even a factor AT ALL. No, Islam spreads and dominates .. and that's the point of Islam in a nutshell .. one of DOMINION.

Now .. how is that remotely compatible with the preservation of freedoms ? Answer .. IT ISN'T, not if those 'freedoms' are freedoms to defy Islam.

The conflict of Sharia with Western values is a case in point. In the UK, as a guiding legal principle, UK law should always prevail. If a Sharia directive can be arrived at and no UK law is broken, then 'fair enough' in our system ... BUT ... legally, no Sharia law 'court' can set itself up in defiance against UK law.

Sounds fine, doesn't it ... BUT for the process I've described already. Our laws are the product of values reflected by the population, HOWEVER, if those values change, then we can expect our laws to reflect that. Hatespeech legislation is a case in point. So .. if our values bend over time, if in the name of 'tolerance' we find we 'want' to accept other values and defer to them (led by the nose into this by Lefties ..) .. then the law, in the fullness of time, can undergo a form of erosion, where other laws supersede them.

As a consequence of ALL this, it's evident that we've been seen in the UK to be fair game for incursion. We get remarkably little incidence of terrorism here, I think because the 'sneakier' methods work here so very well !! So, goodbye churches, and hello, monolithic Mosque structures. And be careful what you say !!!!

But, America has an advantage we fail to have. You have a Constitution which can act as a barrier to certain incursions, it seems to me. So, the question for me is, just how bulletproof does this make America by comparison ?

I've heard that Obama is known for acting unconstitutionally when it suits him to .. surely a dangerous precedent. Should your society allow it ?

Does Obama cite reasonings to justify himself, reasonings which persuade others to adopt societal values which can 'catch on' and seem reasonable ? Folks, I'm somewhat out of my depth in trying to judge this either way, but what I'm saying is, IF this is happening, the dangers inherent in that process are grave.

So, surely, Americans must be prepared to fight if needs be, for what is theirs by right .. by birthright. Tyr's spirit is commendable, but perhaps more importantly, is INSIGHTFUL ... because you ARE in a war against those utterly determined to overthrow your values. They'll use whatever methodology works, be it the gun or bomb, acts of savagery, or of deployed propaganda crafted to fight your very thought processes and change them to THEIR preferences.

Therein, if they succeed, lies the road to the death of freedom.

DO YOU WANT THAT ? YES OR NO ? Because if 'no', then my suggestion is that you take the utmost notice of what Tyr had to tell you. And .. if that isn't enough for you, then cast your eyes and ears eastwards, to learn what's happening on my side of the Pond. To see what COULD happen .. if you allow it to.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for such an insightful post my friend. My reply to it is late but better late than never.
You gave great advice and your suggestion to look to what has happened and is happening to Britain should be taken by one and all. For it is a forerunner of much of what the political arm of Islam will attempt here with the distinction that they must navigate against and around our Constitution!

Sharia law is being promoted here as an alternative by Islamists and that simply can not be allowed. For it is a major undermining of our Constitution and would be a major division in our society. We have one Justice system, we need no second choice. Certainly not a second choiced that promotes a religion that has zero tolerance for freedom.

I take my stand because its also America's stand! I am just honest about what so many want to ignore or hide or even stupidly defend. Such critics are not friends to America for by not actively standing against Islam and its goal to destroy us, force us to submit to Islam , they are actually helping it and some even openly deliberately doing so. Such ignorance is no excuse but it is a reality . The attacks I've had launched against me here for daring to speak the truth about Islam point clearly to the fear and propaganda Islam has carried out for many decades here and its had its effects. Many reject my stand because they are simply afraid of Islam, yes cowards! In fact, often those are the most dedicated opponents to the TRUTH being presented about Islam's great threat! I may pity such cowards but I do not tolerate or forgive them. Forgiveness will be for God to do , not me.
I follow a hard line that a vow I made on 9/11 demands. --Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I stand by my interpretation of the thread!

What interpretation? Care to defend Islam? Go for it ....:laugh:

[Dilloduck]

Why don't you tell us the answer to that question Dilloduck? First. Are you a Muslim? And, why would you ask such a question, despite how poor you are. Educationally.
Then show us a reason why you would suggest such an idea, other than to make some lame point?

Because a post in this thread clearly stated Poverty = Islam.
It's really simple to understand. I was thinking--hey--there are a lot of muslims that are rich as hell so poverty can't really be Islam.
I'm going to pass on the religious question until you can learn how to politely address me instead of constantly insinuating that I'm stooooopid.

[aboutime]

Because a post in this thread clearly stated Poverty = Islam.
It's really simple to understand. I was thinking--hey--there are a lot of muslims that are rich as hell so poverty can't really be Islam.
I'm going to pass on the religious question until you can learn how to politely address me instead of constantly insinuating that I'm stooooopid.

Correction Dilloduck. It WASN'T an Insinuation.

[Dilloduck]

Correction Dilloduck. It WASN'T an Insinuation.

whatever you say

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Because a post in this thread clearly stated Poverty = Islam.
It's really simple to understand. I was thinking--hey--there are a lot of muslims that are rich as hell so poverty can't really be Islam.
I'm going to pass on the religious question until you can learn how to politely address me instead of constantly insinuating that I'm stooooopid.

Little johnny was a very stooooopid boy
because little johnny said very stoooopid things
Little johnny thought it stooopid to call him stoooopid
because little johnny knew that he knew everything.-:laugh2:

Myself, I think you are just the kind of guy that doesnt know that he doesnt know what he doesnt know..:laugh:
Doesnt that make sense to you?;)
I mean at least I've been dedicated and spent over a decade studying about Islam.
Whats your qualifications to speak so boldly on the subject?--Tyr

[Dilloduck]

Little johnny was a very stooooopid boy
because little johnny said very stoooopid things
Little johnny thought it stooopid to call him stoooopid
because little johnny knew that he knew everything.-:laugh2:

Myself, I think you are just the kind of guy that doesnt know that he doesnt know what he doesnt know..:laugh:
Doesnt that make sense to you?;)
I mean at least I've been dedicated and spent over a decade studying about Islam.
Whats your qualifications to speak so boldly on the subject?--Tyr

all muslims are poor ? Are you sure ?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

all muslims are poor ? Are you sure ?

Methinks you are missing what they were saying. It was not literal.
All true muslims are deluded. All true muslims are slaves to Allah. Islam commands Jihad to defend Islam therefore ALL true muslims are potential terrorists. All true muslims believe that infidels are to be subjugated. -Tyr

[Dilloduck]

Methinks you are missing what they were saying. It was not literal.
All true muslims are deluded. All true muslims are slaves to Allah. Islam commands Jihad to defend Islam therefore ALL true muslims are potential terrorists. All true muslims believe that infidels are to be subjugated. -Tyr

ahhhh true muslims and fake muslims-----this could be tough to sort out.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

ahhhh true muslims and fake muslims-----this could be tough to sort out.

Just ask Jafar, he'll clue ya in on it all. You see there is TRUE Islam which uses terror, murder, lies and any dirty tactic known to man and there is FAKE Islam which only sometimes uses terror. murder, lies and any dirty tactic known to man. NOW THE FAKE ONES ARE TO BLAME WHEN ATTEMPTING TO PROMOTE THE LIE THAT ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF PEACE WHILE THE TRUE ONES ARE TO BE GIVEN PRAISE AND CREDIT WHEN VICTORY IS WON OVER ALLAH'S ENEMIES.
Thats the short version , for the much longer and far more complicated version you'll have to consult Jafar. As I havent mastered the lying and spinning techniques necessary to spew that one out. :laugh:-Tyr

[Missileman]

As I havent mastered the lying and spinning techniques necessary to spew that one out. :laugh:-Tyr

Don't sell yourself short. :poke:

[Dilloduck]

Just ask Jafar, he'll clue ya in on it all. You see there is TRUE Islam which uses terror, murder, lies and any dirty tactic known to man and there is FAKE Islam which only sometimes uses terror. murder, lies and any dirty tactic known to man. NOW THE FAKE ONES ARE TO BLAME WHEN ATTEMPTING TO PROMOTE THE LIE THAT ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF PEACE WHILE THE TRUE ONES ARE TO BE GIVEN PRAISE AND CREDIT WHEN VICTORY IS WON OVER ALLAH'S ENEMIES.
Thats the short version , for the much longer and far more complicated version you'll have to consult Jafar. As I havent mastered the lying and spinning techniques necessary to spew that one out. :laugh:-Tyr

Don't short yourself. I think you're one of the best spinners there is.
All muslim are killers. Good luck with that one. :laugh2:

[Abbey Marie]

Because a post in this thread clearly stated Poverty = Islam.
It's really simple to understand. I was thinking--hey--there are a lot of muslims that are rich as hell so poverty can't really be Islam.
I'm going to pass on the religious question until you can learn how to politely address me instead of constantly insinuating that I'm stooooopid.

Sheesh, Dillo, I know you are smarter than this. It was an analogy for the purpose of clarification, and very clearly stated as such.

Since I know you are too intelligent to not know that, are you trying to obfuscate?

[fj1200]

ahhhh true muslims and fake muslims-----this could be tough to sort out.

Not when you've spent over a decade reading anti-Islam websites, err, studying Islam.

[Drummond]

ahhhh true muslims and fake muslims-----this could be tough to sort out.

This reminds me. I recall asking you some little while ago, Dilloduck, whether or not you're a Muslim. You 'ducked' the question.

Do you have an answer to offer ?

[Dilloduck]

Sheesh, Dillo, I know you are smarter than this. It was an analogy for the purpose of clarification, and very clearly stated as such.

Since I know you are too intelligent to not know that, are you trying to obfuscate?

nope----I truly misunderstood your analogy. I didn't realize that you were substituting the word Islam for poverty. I thought you meant Islam EQUALLED poverty. My bad.

[jimnyc]

ahhhh true muslims and fake muslims-----this could be tough to sort out.

I can say this much, an endless amount of Muslims I have discussed the issue of terrorism & the abuse of women, they almost always state "they aren't true Muslims". Their words, not mine!

[Dilloduck]

I can say this much, an endless amount of Muslims I have discussed the issue of terrorism & the abuse of women, they almost always state "they aren't true Muslims". Their words, not mine!

agreed----so how do we deal with real and fake muslims ?

[jimnyc]

agreed----so how do we deal with real and fake muslims ?

Kill the terrorists, incarcerate the criminals and do nothing to peaceful law abiding Muslims. And when I say "we", I mean society, as obviously that would be under the control of where these people are at, and we "assume" that societies in other countries will be vigilant and do the same, but unfortunately that is rarely the case. So we can remain vigilant against terrorists, and criminals within our jurisdiction, but the entire problem is up to Muslims as well. Unfortunately, many, many people will continue to die and get abused until these other nations grow a pair and take care of the problem.

[Dilloduck]

Kill the terrorists, incarcerate the criminals and do nothing to peaceful law abiding Muslims. And when I say "we", I mean society, as obviously that would be under the control of where these people are at, and we "assume" that societies in other countries will be vigilant and do the same, but unfortunately that is rarely the case. So we can remain vigilant against terrorists, and criminals within our jurisdiction, but the entire problem is up to Muslims as well. Unfortunately, many, many people will continue to die and get abused until these other nations grow a pair and take care of the problem.

Sounds like a good plan to me

[fj1200]

Kill the terrorists, incarcerate the criminals and do nothing to peaceful law abiding Muslims...

... except for ones who use "terror, murder, lies, and dirty tactics" of course.


... there is TRUE Islam which uses terror, murder, lies and any dirty tactic known to man and there is FAKE Islam which only sometimes uses terror. murder, lies and any dirty tactic known to man.

My God Jim, take a stand man. :poke:

[jimnyc]

... except for ones who use "terror, murder, lies, and dirty tactics" of course.



My God Jim, take a stand man. :poke:

Well, we all know that there are good and bad in every society and every religion. IMO though, currently, there are more coming from within Islam. This can be corrected though, as the world is slowly banding together to hopefully stamp out terrorism, although this is no overnight job. But I think the key is, if there are Muslims who do evil deeds, that even fellow Muslims refer to as "not true Muslims", then they need to get on board and help us stamp out terrorism and those who commit these evil deeds. I see glimpses of it here and there, but not nearly enough, IMO, to say that Islam is doing their share to stop these problems. I think far too many are looking away or turning a blind eye to the many issues.

But yeah, contrary to what Jafar or Abso would have you believe, and what my Muslim friends that I see daily would argue, I don't have a problem with all of Islam, just the crapheads.

[Drummond]

Well, we all know that there are good and bad in every society and every religion. IMO though, currently, there are more coming from within Islam. This can be corrected though, as the world is slowly banding together to hopefully stamp out terrorism, although this is no overnight job. But I think the key is, if there are Muslims who do evil deeds, that even fellow Muslims refer to as "not true Muslims", then they need to get on board and help us stamp out terrorism and those who commit these evil deeds. I see glimpses of it here and there, but not nearly enough, IMO, to say that Islam is doing their share to stop these problems. I think far too many are looking away or turning a blind eye to the many issues.

But yeah, contrary to what Jafar or Abso would have you believe, and what my Muslim friends that I see daily would argue, I don't have a problem with all of Islam, just the crapheads.

Fair enough, Jim .. IF we can see clear evidence of a substantial number of Muslims prepared to do their bit to fight terrorism and act against its instigators.

Still .. even if he was only one example to cite .. I'm still reminded of Abu Hamza (now extradited to the US to face terrorist charges), a hate preacher if ever there was one, arguing on a weekly basis, for YEARS, that his Jihadist message needed to be heeded and acted upon. There he stood, Jim, outside a mosque in Finsbury Park, north London (an area of London with a disproportionately high percentage of Muslim and ethnic-minority people populating it), trying to recruit whoever would listen to his Jihadist cause.

Now, as I say, he did this, weekly, for YEARS. You'd imagine there would have to be, over this time, quite a number of Muslims who'd want to complain about him, if - as you'd like to believe - there's a peaceful 'core' contingent of Muslims who'd find him offensive. Yet, I'm unaware of even ONE complaint, EVER being officially made against him. I'm sure that if any had been, it would've been newsworthy enough in the UK for the press to have reported it with some prominence. I've never seen any such report.

Jafar was in my country when much of this was going on, Jim, I understand he knew the area (.. as do I ..) and he suggested anecdotal evidence of a local Muslim he knew who, he said, didn't like what Hamza was doing. Well, I've already challenged Jafar to provide evidence of any complaints made against Abu Hamza. He had to reply without being able to supply such evidence.

Jim, if you can find any yourself, I look forward to seeing it. But I feel certain there is none at all to be found. So I ask .. HOW COME ? Surely, over a period of years, someone would've complained from the Muslim community, if Hamza's hate sermons hadn't resonated with them !

Do you see the difficulty here ? It just isn't credible, Jim, that Hamza could have continued with his HUNDREDS of sermons and received no opposition from other Muslims .. if any had actually existed.

[jimnyc]

Fair enough, Jim .. IF we can see clear evidence of a substantial number of Muslims prepared to do their bit to fight terrorism and act against its instigators.

Still .. even if he was only one example to cite .. I'm still reminded of Abu Hamza (now extradited to the US to face terrorist charges), a hate preacher if ever there was one, arguing on a weekly basis, for YEARS, that his Jihadist message needed to be heeded and acted upon. There he stood, Jim, outside a mosque in Finsbury Park, north London (an area of London with a disproportionately high percentage of Muslim and ethnic-minority people populating it), trying to recruit whoever would listen to his Jihadist cause.

Now, as I say, he did this, weekly, for YEARS. You'd imagine there would have to be, over this time, quite a number of Muslims who'd want to complain about him, if - as you'd like to believe - there's a peaceful 'core' contingent of Muslims who'd find him offensive. Yet, I'm unaware of even ONE complaint, EVER being officially made against him. I'm sure that if any had been, it would've been newsworthy enough in the UK for the press to have reported it with some prominence. I've never seen any such report.

Jafar was in my country when much of this was going on, Jim, I understand he knew the area (.. as do I ..) and he suggested anecdotal evidence of a local Muslim he knew who, he said, didn't like what Hamza was doing. Well, I've already challenged Jafar to provide evidence of any complaints made against Abu Hamza. He had to reply without being able to supply such evidence.

Jim, if you can find any yourself, I look forward to seeing it. But I feel certain there is none at all to be found. So I ask .. HOW COME ? Surely, over a period of years, someone would've complained from the Muslim community, if Hamza's hate sermons hadn't resonated with them !

Do you see the difficulty here ? It just isn't credible, Jim, that Hamza could have continued with his HUNDREDS of sermons and received no opposition from other Muslims .. if any had actually existed.

You won't get an argument from me! Like I said, far too many turn a blind eye, look away, or in this case they revel in the hatred and this is where the "death to America" kind of crap starts. I also wouldn't be surprised if one or 2 "jihadists" aka terrorists are formed out of such hate speech. Many will say this only accounts for a small portion, but we know that's not true, and this is certainly not the only place this kind of stuff happens. If this is occurring in London, can you imagine how often it happens in Islamic countries? Our Muslim friends here won't respond to this although I asked many times - but even in Australia, they had an 8yr old girl speaking about jihad and global domination, and I can't even begin to tell you how much I've seen over the years, where they start teaching kids at 3-4yrs old about hating jews. As I said before, they never had a chance. And until the peaceful Muslims stand up and stamp this crap out, it will almost always be a problem. If the UK or US gets involved to stamp things out, they blame us for getting involved and to stay out of their business, even though their business knows no borders and ultimately gets people beaten and/or killed.

My point prior to this, is that there are in fact peaceful Muslims out there I believe. Sadly, it's mostly in non-Islamic lead countries. And of course there are plenty in Islamic countries too, but they don't seem to care enough to get involved and put an end to the hate and death.

[Drummond]

You won't get an argument from me! Like I said, far too many turn a blind eye, look away, or in this case they revel in the hatred and this is where the "death to America" kind of crap starts. I also wouldn't be surprised if one or 2 "jihadists" aka terrorists are formed out of such hate speech. Many will say this only accounts for a small portion, but we know that's not true, and this is certainly not the only place this kind of stuff happens. If this is occurring in London, can you imagine how often it happens in Islamic countries? Our Muslim friends here won't respond to this although I asked many times - but even in Australia, they had an 8yr old girl speaking about jihad and global domination, and I can't even begin to tell you how much I've seen over the years, where they start teaching kids at 3-4yrs old about hating jews. As I said before, they never had a chance. And until the peaceful Muslims stand up and stamp this crap out, it will almost always be a problem. If the UK or US gets involved to stamp things out, they blame us for getting involved and to stay out of their business, even though their business knows no borders and ultimately gets people beaten and/or killed.

My point prior to this, is that there are in fact peaceful Muslims out there I believe. Sadly, it's mostly in non-Islamic lead countries. And of course there are plenty in Islamic countries too, but they don't seem to care enough to get involved and put an end to the hate and death.

Good points, Jim.

You weren't aware of this .. ?

http://laht.com/article.asp?CategoryId=12395&ArticleId=223535


Abu Hamza Al-Masri, who was jailed for seven years Tuesday for inciting murder and racial hatred, preached his message of violence to three of the July 7 London suicide bombers.

The Times has learnt that Mohammad Sidique Khan, Shehzad Tanweer and Jermaine Lindsay, who detonated rucksack bombs on London Tube visited Finsbury Park mosque in North London where Abu Hamza taught that Muslims were obliged to kill unbelievers to defend Islam.

Khan and Tanweer heard the cleric’s sermons inside the mosque. They and Lindsay were also among crowds that heard Abu Hamza preach on the street after the building was closed in a police raid in 2003.

The link between Abu Hamza, 47, and the bombers, who killed 52 people and themselves, raises a possible new explanation for the timing of the attacks.

On the morning of July 7 Abu Hamza was in the dock at the Old Bailey about to stand trial. But his case was postponed for six months. It resumed last month, concluding when a jury of seven men and five women returned unanimous guilty verdicts on 11 of 15 charges.

Abu Hamza, who refused to recognize the court because it did not administer Islamic law, remained seated as the verdicts were delivered.

Sentencing him, Mr Justice Hughes said: “You used your authority to legitimize anger and to encourage your audiences to believe that it gave rise to a duty to murder.

“You commended suicide bombing, you encouraged them to kill in the cause you set out for them.” He added that the radical imam had “created a real danger to the lives of innocent people in different parts of the world”.

The judge said that in handing down a seven-year sentence he was aware that upon release Abu Hamza was likely to be rearrested and extradited to the United States where he faces serious terrorist charges, including conspiracy to take hostages.

As Abu Hamza was led away two supporters in the public gallery called out: “God bless you, Sheikh Abu Hamza.”

As I say .. NO complaints, ever that I'm aware of ...

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.meforum.org/2578/steven-emerson-combating-radical-islam

ConclusionEmerson believes that the Islamist movement in the West continues to strengthen, in large part due to what he refers to as the "cultural jihad," which provides a congenial environment in which Islamists can flourish. He cites survey data indicating that many Muslim communities in the West sympathize with aspects of the Islamist worldview. These cultural jihadists in turn give moral support to the terrorists.[71] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#_ftn71) In Globalized Islam: The Search for a New Ummah, the French scholar Olivier Roy argues that Muslims in the West often experience a trauma of "deterritorialization" because they feel estranged from their native lands. To overcome anomie and alienation, young Muslims find solace in a new, purified Islam and attach themselves to a "virtual ummah [Islamic nation]" built by them on the Internet.[72] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#_ftn72) This pool of mostly young, alienated, Muslim men provides a reservoir from which Islamists can recruit in the West.
In Emerson's opinion, the November 2, 2004 murder of Theo van Gogh by Mohammed Bouyeri[73] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#_ftn73) was a watershed event that inspired Europeans to reevaluate the viability of the multicultural model, seeing that it results not in peaceful coexistence but rather in separatism and cultural jihadism, threatening the social fabric of Western Europe. He warns that moderates have little influence in Muslim communities in the West.[74] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#_ftn74) Although the Muslim underclass in the United States is smaller than in Europe, Emerson finds substantial alienation in the Muslim-American community. He sees groups such as CAIR, MPAC, the Islamic Society of North America, and the Muslim American Society as agents that exacerbate this tendency. What is more, he notes, Islamist schools in the United States are often funded by Wahhabi sources promoting an extremist variant of Islam.[75] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#_ftn75)
Emerson has not gone unnoticed by Al-Qaeda. In September 2006, a leading public representative of the organization—American-born Adam Gadahn, who has adopted the Muslim name of Azzam al-Amriki—mentioned Emerson and several other Americans in a public videotape.[76] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#_ftn76) The video begins with an introduction by bin Laden's lieutenant, Ayman al-Zawahiri, who refers to Gadahn as a "brother" and "a perceptive person who wants to lead his people out of darkness into the light."[77] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#_ftn77) Then Gadahn invites Emerson and the others to Islam:

If the Zionist crusader missionaries of hate and counter-Islam consultants like Daniel Pipes, Robert Spencer, Michael Scheuer, Steven Emerson, and yes, even the crusader-in-chief, George W. Bush were to abandon their unbelief and repent and enter into the light of Islam and turn their swords against the enemies of God, it would be accepted of them and they would be our brothers of Islam.[78] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#_ftn78)
Emerson and his colleagues remain unimpressed and continue their work.
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Impressive link , very very long . Emerson has them nailed ..-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

... except for ones who use "terror, murder, lies, and dirty tactics" of course.



My God Jim, take a stand man. :poke:


^^ Why are you begging? Begging for condemnation of my post, my stand and my posting truth about Islam.

My, my how unbiased and fair you are..
Do you deny that there are those that use "terror, lies, murder and dirty tactics"???
Jim , apparently has already taken a stand that he sees and seeks the truth. Isnt that good enough for you or will you need to beg for more?-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2012/07/cair-shows-no-mercy-to-abused-muslim-women.html

Just a small sample below .. The Article can be read at the site linked. CAIR is all about Islam destroying America.. --Tyr

Comments<!-- comment list -->I don't think I've ever seen an example of mercy with the stamp of islam on it. They kill their own children and wives when they step out of line, and show less mercy to strangers.

Posted by: venkovan | Monday, July 30, 2012 at 01:05 PM (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2012/07/cair-shows-no-mercy-to-abused-muslim-women.html?cid=6a00d8341c60bf53ef017616e232a6970c# comment-6a00d8341c60bf53ef017616e232a6970c)

Come to think about it venkovan, I wonder if they even know what love is? All they know is control and fear. How can they love someone and kill them the very next day? How sad a life.
Now this poor woman Nashida has probably been living in hell for three years with nowhere to turn and nobody to help. Maybe she can get in touch with you Pamela and find her way out of the hole she's in. I can't even imagine what her life is like.

Posted by: Brandy | Monday, July 30, 2012 at 02:04 PM (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2012/07/cair-shows-no-mercy-to-abused-muslim-women.html?cid=6a00d8341c60bf53ef017743c8dcbf970d# comment-6a00d8341c60bf53ef017743c8dcbf970d)

An example of Islamic mercy within the family. This is the true story of an event that happened during Bush II in Iraq.
Two British soldiers were patrolling an Iraqi village when they observed a man violently punching and kicking his 11-year-old daughter in front of his house. They beat him up for it.
The man then stood in front of his house for days, waiting for the two soldiers to pass by again. One day they did. The man made sure they noticed him, pulled his daughter in front of him, and cut her throat with a dagger before they could stop him.
When the police came to arrest him, the man told them: "Now I have regained my honor."

Posted by: Thomas | Tuesday, July 31, 2012 at 04:57 AM (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2012/07/cair-shows-no-mercy-to-abused-muslim-women.html?cid=6a00d8341c60bf53ef017616e747c7970c# comment-6a00d8341c60bf53ef017616e747c7970c)

Why is the death, or murder, of a wife or daughter not considered a loss to those who practice islam? How do they survive with such a profound lack of reasoning and the total absence of love? They must be sustained by the devil himself, for no other could tolerate such evil.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Not when you've spent over a decade reading anti-Islam websites, err, studying Islam.

Or one could do like you , your new fan missileman and others and just talk out their asses about crap you do not understand but "feel" strongly about. Like say, Islam and its true threats for example. Pretend to be so knowledgable without really knowing anything except how much you want to appease Islam and criticise me.
Be that kind of arrogant but basicly useless poster..-:laugh:--Tyr

[Dilloduck]

You won't get an argument from me! Like I said, far too many turn a blind eye, look away, or in this case they revel in the hatred and this is where the "death to America" kind of crap starts. I also wouldn't be surprised if one or 2 "jihadists" aka terrorists are formed out of such hate speech. Many will say this only accounts for a small portion, but we know that's not true, and this is certainly not the only place this kind of stuff happens. If this is occurring in London, can you imagine how often it happens in Islamic countries? Our Muslim friends here won't respond to this although I asked many times - but even in Australia, they had an 8yr old girl speaking about jihad and global domination, and I can't even begin to tell you how much I've seen over the years, where they start teaching kids at 3-4yrs old about hating jews. As I said before, they never had a chance. And until the peaceful Muslims stand up and stamp this crap out, it will almost always be a problem. If the UK or US gets involved to stamp things out, they blame us for getting involved and to stay out of their business, even though their business knows no borders and ultimately gets people beaten and/or killed.

My point prior to this, is that there are in fact peaceful Muslims out there I believe. Sadly, it's mostly in non-Islamic lead countries. And of course there are plenty in Islamic countries too, but they don't seem to care enough to get involved and put an end to the hate and death.

I don't think anyone wants the job of world policeman. It's dangerous and expensive.

[Dilloduck]

http://ezinearticles.com/?Nazi-Jews---A-Historical-Paradox&id=1318287

[tailfins]

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2012/07/cair-shows-no-mercy-to-abused-muslim-women.html

Just a small sample below .. The Article can be read at the site linked. CAIR is all about Islam destroying America.. --Tyr

CAIR is indeed a bigoted organization. Do you remember Bill Keller battle? I draw the line when a group wants only tolerance only for themselves.

The below link will refresh your memory if you don't. CAIR isn't just minding their own business.

http://www.nationalreview.com/media-blog/35638/cair-vs-televangelist-bill-keller/greg-pollowitz

[Dilloduck]

CAIR is indeed a bigoted organization. Do you remember Bill Keller battle? I draw the line when a group wants only tolerance only for themselves.

The below link will refresh your memory if you don't. CAIR isn't just minding their own business.

http://www.nationalreview.com/media-blog/35638/cair-vs-televangelist-bill-keller/greg-pollowitz

There are groups all over America who place their own interests above others. Seriously folks. Treating Islam as the great Satan will do more harm than good.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

CAIR is indeed a bigoted organization. Do you remember Bill Keller battle? I draw the line when a group wants only tolerance only for themselves.

The below link will refresh your memory if you don't. CAIR isn't just minding their own business.

http://www.nationalreview.com/media-blog/35638/cair-vs-televangelist-bill-keller/greg-pollowitz

This Bill Keller..??--Tyr


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/17/bill-keller-southern-poverty-law-center-hate-group-lawsuit_n_1799536.html

A prominent evangelist is threatening to sue the Southern Poverty Law Center (http://www.splcenter.org/) (SPLC) after it labeled his Internet-based ministry a "hate group."
According to a press release (http://www.standardnewswire.com/news/104407534.html), Bill Keller -- deemed "the world's leading Internet evangelist" and the founder of LivePrayer.com (http://liveprayer.com/) -- is planning a $100 million defamation lawsuit against the SPLC.
"The sad shooting the other day at the Family Research Council by a man who supports the radical homosexual agenda, was clearly fueled by the left wing group, the Southern Poverty Law Center," Keller is quoted by ThinkProgress as saying (http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/08/17/709031/hate-group-leader-threatens-100-million-lawsuit-against-splc/). "I receive at least 4-5 death threats a month for taking a Biblical stand on issues like homosexuality, the false religion of Islam and other cults, and the fact life begins at conception and choosing to end that life is nothing more than legalized infanticide."
He continued, "Groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center give license to individuals who oppose a Biblical worldview to take whatever actions they deem fit, even acts of violence, to silence those they disagree with. Sadly, this intimidation has worked, because there are very few like myself who are willing to go into the mainstream media and promote Biblical truth that a large percentage of society now rejects."
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Yes, I remember the name and a bit about the controversy. CAIR has intimidated and even brought lawsuits against many outspoken critics of Islam. They do that to cost their victims huge attorney fees defending against their bullshat. They even support Islamic terrorist groups. They have powerful friends in our government with obama being the biggest one.-Tyr

[jimnyc]

I don't think anyone wants the job of world policeman. It's dangerous and expensive.

It's a lot better than allowing terrorism to become more of a problem than it already is, and watching innocent women being abused on a daily basis. I'm not fond of ignoring such things like Islam does in their own backyard, and I'm all for the US stopping what they can.

[Dilloduck]

It's a lot better than allowing terrorism to become more of a problem than it already is, and watching innocent women being abused on a daily basis. I'm not fond of ignoring such things like Islam does in their own backyard, and I'm all for the US stopping what they can.

No one has ever suggested ignoring any acts of violence. Y'all really need to burn that strawman. I'd like to make it all disappear like magic too but the truth is that policing the world is expensive and dangerous and has unintended consequences. We will be defeated economically if we're not careful.