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View Full Version : Like to rely on Consumer Reports with their car reviews?



KitchenKitten99
10-06-2012, 08:23 PM
Might not be as reliable as people have been led to believe...

Full article here:
http://www.allpar.com/cr.html

A couple sections snipped below. CR=Consumer Reports

...
Lumping cars together in the car ratings Different drivetrains have different reliabilities -- CR often lumps them all together. (Now they are also combining "corporate twins" to hide the anomalies of years past). Standard and Grand Caravans are listed in the same category, despite the very different repair histories of the two transmissions and the different engines. They separate some engines but lump the 3.0 V6 oil-leaker in with the more reliable 3.3 engine.
David Ta wrote: "I'd expect CR to point me to those unique problem(s) from different make-model-year combination. Those CR reliability reports, regardless how they were done, did not reveal those problems. For example, 6 months ago, I noticed a bunch of postings on [Japanese SUV] problem of blown head gasket, within the first 70k miles. I checked CR report on [vehicle] and compared to CAA report on the same make-model-year. Not surprisingly, CR reported a under the "engine" category. And surprisingly CAA reported the same make-model-year a "much worse than average" two red-dots for that category."
Lloyd says that unreliable options or components are sometimes pointed out in the ratings. This is indeed true, with an emphasis on "sometimes." We have to trust Consumer Reports on that, which we'd rather not do, considering what they do not tell us. WhatCar? used to have a very consistent approach to this; and WhatCar? also used to point out what the manufacturer had done, or had not done, to solve the problem. (WhatCar? used actual repair records from vehicles leased in the UK.) ...




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John Phillips wrote: "A few years ago, they had the [2 domestic nameplates and one foreign nameplate all of the same car] owner's satisfaction. The [domestic nameplate] had the least owner satisfaction of these three. Next was the [other domestic nameplate]. The best owner support was for the [foreign nameplate]. There was a fair spread between them. Funny thing: all of these are built at the same American plant, only varying, primarily, in "hood ornaments." How can the same car be perceived differently when the only real difference was the label?"
Chris Jardine wrote:

I've noticed a number of occasions where data they have presented simply CANNOT be correct. Example 1 - a few years ago I looked at their reliability chart for the [car and car with another engine]. They claim that exterior fit and finish was [good rating] on the [one engine] and [terrible rating] for the [other engine] . This translates to a 4 and a 1 on a 1 to 5 scale. Since these vehicles were produced by the same workers, tools, raw materials, etc [B]it is not possible for this to happen! I could buy a difference of one but not three between the two. A short statistical analysis lesson would be appropriate here. You can expect a variation of one when working with something like this. If you see the deviation that you do here you simply have not sampled the data properly! This is basic statistics. If this difference came in something that was not common to the two, like the engine, cooling system, transmission, etc. I would be able to accept the variation as correct. However, there is no way that this deviation from one to the next can occur with common items to the two.
Example 2 - [same cars, different nameplates]. There were major differences with the engine, electrical, fit and finish, etc. between these two. The only difference between them was the name plate applied near the end of the assembly line and a code in the VIN. There were differences in standard levels of equipment, but, that should not statistically effect what CR would have us believe it did. This is another case of improper statistical procedures.
For these reasons, I for one simply cannot believe much of anything CR prints as statistical data.
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....Routine maintenance varies by vehicle Jim Eldridge essentially wrote this for us by example:

I have a 1985 Dodge Daytona that has 135,000 miles on it. It runs great. At about 85,000 miles the timing belt broke, stranding my wife. The maintenance schedule says nothing about replacing the belt. Dodge thinks it's OK to wait till it breaks and then replace it; the design is such that it does nothing bad to the engine. However, to my wife, the car broke down and had a "serious engine problem." [Note: the manual actually does suggest replacing the belt at 105,000 miles.]
My friend with a Nissan Maxima just had his 60,000 mile maintenance at the dealer. He had the timing belt replaced, the fuel injectors cleaned, oil change, etc. and a fuel injector replaced. Cost, $850! If he filled out the CR form, he would show no major problems, just routine maintenance.
He then told me he was considering replacing all of his shocks because "it was about time." No Dodge owner would ever consider replacing shocks before the car bounced down the road. All Dodge had to do was recommend the belt change at 60,000 miles to avoid a "serious engine problem."
Will Mast said, “A friend with a Toyota used to brag about how trouble free it was until I showed him all the repairs, including a cracked exhaust valve, that were hidden in his 30,000 mile "maintenance" visits to the dealer.”
The solution is to get far more specific - and perhaps, to be really careful, to find out something about owners' routine maintenance.
...

KitchenKitten99
10-08-2012, 12:11 PM
'Routine Maintenance' doesn't even save you from complete engine failure. I have first-hand knowledge of this. My husband had a 2002 Hyundai Santa Fe (3.0L V6) when I met him. I think it was around 140k. I had a 2000 Chev Impala LS (3.8L V6) with about 160k when I met him.

He bought his SUV (if you can call it that since it was FWD) brand new, he was the sole owner. He did ALL the routine stuff including replacing parts that really didn't show signs of failure, paying thousands of dollars (records added up to probably $4500 or so) over time with this. He only ran synthetic thru it and changed every 3k, regardless of what the owners manual said you could go to.

My ex and I bought ours used, 75k on it at the time of purchase back in 2006 (still had 25k left on the extended warranty it came with) when our oldest son was soon to be born. We were not (I am still not) believers in replacing parts before necessary. We/I (I inherited the car in the divorce) did the oil changes when the car told us to via computer. Replaced parts when needed/when failed, not before. Over the course of the last 8 years, We/I paid probably $2k in repairs to parts outside of brake pads and oil (standard, not synthetic) changes. Had to replace the cat convertor at about 160k, calipers (the ones on the car were the factory originals) power steering pump, water pump, and serpentine belt around 200k. It had an exhaust manifold leak (small) and a small oil leak. I only had to add oil (it would tell me low oil) about when it would need an oil change.

I thought for sure DH's Santa Fe would outlive my car. Just for sheer age and how much my car was a workhorse, especially when I was going to culinary school 4 days/week, 45 miles from home. Plus working and doing my internship 30 miles from home. I was averaging 20k a year in the last two years I had my car. I was a student and DH and I still had a limited income.

Yet...DH's Santa Fe decided to run out of oil, not indicate anything-no light, no pressure issues, nothing. It just died no warning on the freeway fall of 2010. Diagnosis was engine seized due to no oil--the pan was barely coated. Oil had been changed about 4500 miles prior--he was overdue but still... It did not have a leak, internal nor external. NO explanation. Yet he had poured ALL that money over the years to keeping up with the stuff the dealer tells you. He said that Hyundai would not honor the warranty if you didn't. GM did not have that stipulation. I don't think they do today either.

So after all that money he poured into the 'routine maintenance', the thing still failed well before it should have, leaving us with my car for our only transportation. I still had 8 months left for school. We still had our 5 kids to transport around, and our shop to run. We got by with the help of friends until we could save for a down payment on a newer 2nd car (which we did, an 07 Chev Impala SS)

We finally were able to buy a newer car last spring, and my car continued to run and be the workhorse, starting strong every morning and evening. Until last fall, it finally had enough and starting having valve train issues. Diagnosis itself would have cost a $1k because they'd have to rip the engine apart. At that point I figured Old Red would have been better suited as a parts donor at 215k on the OD. Too much $ to fix and we would have better use of using that $ to buy another car.

Say what you want about GM being 'Government Motors', but I love my Impala SS and I have had nothing but good experiences with the Impala line (as have my grandparents who also have now owned and leased 2 Impalas in the last 6 years) and would buy another one if the time came and I still needed a 4dr car.

glockmail
10-08-2012, 01:13 PM
Back in the late 70's when I had my old man's well-used hand-me-down Ford for college I was always the guy picking up my friends from the repair shops to get their Japanese cars fixed. CU always rated those car high as far as reliability and such and rated mine poorly. Although I had a problem with rust (this was the northeast) my car always ran great. Of course I knew how to keep it tuned but the parts were 1/4 to 1/3 of what parts for my friend's car were. In 1986 my wife spun it on glare ice on the raised viaduct through Syracuse NY and had it resting backwards against the guard rail on the inside lane, and three Japanese cars drove into her one by one. Each one had to be towed off but my car was still idling and after the cop gave her the go-ahead my wife simply turned the car around and drove home. I sold that car in 1986 with 185k miles on her and am still kicking myself for not pulling the engine to use for a nice hot-rod project.

KitchenKitten99
10-08-2012, 01:51 PM
Back in the late 70's when I had my old man's well-used hand-me-down Ford for college I was always the guy picking up my friends from the repair shops to get their Japanese cars fixed. CU always rated those car high as far as reliability and such and rated mine poorly. Although I had a problem with rust (this was the northeast) my car always ran great. Of course I knew how to keep it tuned but the parts were 1/4 to 1/3 of what parts for my friend's car were. In 1986 my wife spun it on glare ice on the raised viaduct through Syracuse NY and had it resting backwards against the guard rail on the inside lane, and three Japanese cars drove into her one by one. Each one had to be towed off but my car was still idling and after the cop gave her the go-ahead my wife simply turned the car around and drove home. I sold that car in 1986 with 185k miles on her and am still kicking myself for not pulling the engine to use for a nice hot-rod project.

I was rear-ended in Old Red while at a stop light several years ago. The Toyota mini-van that hit me (she admitted to be going about 20-25mph when she slid into me) was totaled. She completely crumpled her front end and had to be towed. My car's bumper was scuffed and a little 'crazed' but it didn't actually crack or split. Repair shop said only the under parts needed replacing and refinishing the bumper. Less than $1k damage and only 3 days in the shop.