Be better educated ,,, lay off teachers [Archive] - Debate Policy

Robert A Whit

11-23-2012, 02:37 AM

Khan academy is truly groundbreaking. If anyone is unfamiliar with it, though I posted the link years ago, go see.

http://www.khanacademy.org/

Robert's suggestion of ending teachers and schools is nonsense for the most part. Only for the most part or basically. ;)

This is a wonderful idea for adults that want to update their skills or develop those that were neglected when in school.

It's also a viable alternative for many classes in middle and high school, but one needs to be keeping the documentation necessary, just as in homeschooling, if you want to move onto university work.

It's also invaluable to those in university that may be struggling in courses that the 'academy' can help with. The lectures are direct and the lessons follow the lectures. Wow, concepts anyone?

Teachers will whine about this but this is the NEW age.

Teachers jobs compel students to sit at attention and soak up the teachers knowledge.

Children not learning will not inform the teacher thus what happens

Drop out rates for blacks of upwards of 75 percent. And we wonder why blacks are so fond of prison?

Children can be much more curious than teachers can deal with. Many teachers are not very well educated in the course they teach. They may teach physics for instance based on less than current information.

I find that too many teachers are really thwarting education even though per them, they want to teach well. If they want students well taught, they need to use the Kahn model.

But I believe all they want is retirement and to protect a job in the meantime that is not benefitting far too many kids.

When maybe 25 percent of education dollars reaches the class room, something has to change.

And hireing more teachers is not the solution.

Maybe if we were not in the highly sophisticated era of today, we might need more teachers.

Today teachers need to go the way of the dodo bird, the way of newspapers.

Even TV has changed radically. TV has become a place for the 1 hr long advertising that the press lost.

TV as in Sesame st is losing traction.

Go the way of Kahn.

He has no teachers on line that you must pay for.

Getting rid of schools and teachers will add to progress, not take away. We can use those funds for some real progress.

Kathianne

11-23-2012, 02:42 AM

Robert A Whit

11-23-2012, 04:40 AM

tailfins

11-23-2012, 08:54 AM

The problem with online school is that most kids won't work as hard. Unless a parent wants to be a full time teacher, there won't be someone to prod the kids into doing their work.

Kathianne

11-23-2012, 10:42 AM

The problem with online school is that most kids won't work as hard. Unless a parent wants to be a full time teacher, there won't be someone to prod the kids into doing their work.

Indeed and there are parents that may do so, they already homeschool and online classes are certainly one way for them to be able to provide the curriculum they find difficult to do themselves.

There are also many that get through school successfully via the extra-curricular opportunities offered: sports, theater, music, art, debate, etc. These are kids that say, "I like school. It's where my friends are and it's where I 'do my thing.'"

You must want to be my mother since she is the only woman to call me Robert. And she passed away.

Children easily learn video games. And I suppose with no teacher.

Enough?

Kahn won't do for every child. But of course teachers won't either. Not those currently teaching K-6

I referred to you as Robert, as that is the name you provided? What in the world are you asking me to call you? Sam?

As for the rest of this response? Where does Khan or any comprehensive, successful online school exist for students K-6?

gabosaurus

11-23-2012, 11:29 AM

Abbey Marie

11-23-2012, 11:53 AM

tailfins

11-23-2012, 12:01 PM

Let's try to lay off the unprovoked insults.

They don't project the image of a thinking person. I personally don't care if she insults all day long. However, the first word I thought of to describe her post was mindless.

aboutime

11-23-2012, 12:54 PM

Robert A Whit

11-23-2012, 02:02 PM

So Robert, you are advocating all education from Kindergarten through 12th grade be turned to Khan Academy?

Civics, Literature, reading, writing? Tell me, how is that possible?

At the same time, explain how this media, whether Khan or any other like it, would be the best answer for all children.

Myself? I think it can and does already serve many from middle through high school. It also is a first rate tool for university students that are ill prepared for math especially in college.

I may be missing something here.

Often, I snap off quick replies since before I post, I most often do research, then post.
I gave this statement too short of a reply.
I am not clear that only Khan can fill the bill. They claim to have over 3600 videos if memory serves me well. I once again looked at their site yesterday. I have posted on other forums about Khan some years back. His program is not new. Surely by this time there are results that show if it works better or not. Many kids sit around in class rooms. I recall when I sat in class rooms, depending on the class, my friends and I could waste time telling jokes, pitching paper airplanes out the 2nd story window at the social studies class, firing water pistols at some kid in another class and getting suspended for that. I recall doodling on paper due to intense boredom.

Kahn complains that students are not told the WHY of said courses. We depend entirely on the student to inspire themselves. As it is, teachers complain over class size. Kahn's system can make teaching changes that make a mockery of the current system. I have that opinion.

Watching Kahn speak is like a drink of fresh water. Kahn explains his syste. I have yet to see a teacher explain theirs.

When Bush tried to impose more Prussion style to teaching, teachers often resisted and complained.

So far as I can tell, teachers do a lot of whining.

But look at their retirement benefits.

Kahn earns no pension for his courses.

Yes, we need to move into the modern age and toss out teachers ideas of teaching.

I believe teachers can do much more productive things than try to talk over some class that is making trouble.

What I say is not that I don't respect teachers. i have a couple of slide rules too yet why bother when my computers do it faster and rather more accurately.

Teaching wouild be more defendable had teachers not been complaining a lot.

Now I am charged to defend the Khan system. I suggest some visit the site and ask him to defend his program.

I am not in this for the teachers but in it for the kids.

tailfins

11-23-2012, 02:06 PM

i have a couple of slide rules too yet why bother when my computers do it faster and rather more accurately.

For historical reasons and the logic skills that get exercised by using a slide rule.

In other words: For the same reason I still play and repair my Edison Amberola porcelain music cylinder player. Someone put some of my favorites on Youtube so I won't have to wear out my favorite cylinders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih9qezA9DMc

Robert A Whit

11-23-2012, 02:09 PM

The problem with online school is that most kids won't work as hard. Unless a parent wants to be a full time teacher, there won't be someone to prod the kids into doing their work.

So, you see the role of a teacher as the head prodder?

Robert A Whit

11-23-2012, 02:18 PM

Indeed and there are parents that may do so, they already homeschool and online classes are certainly one way for them to be able to provide the curriculum they find difficult to do themselves.

There are also many that get through school successfully via the extra-curricular opportunities offered: sports, theater, music, art, debate, etc. These are kids that say, "I like school. It's where my friends are and it's where I 'do my thing.'"

I referred to you as Robert, as that is the name you provided? What in the world are you asking me to call you? Sam?

As for the rest of this response? Where does Khan or any comprehensive, successful online school exist for students K-6?

You must realize how poorly schools sticking to teachers do, right?
I had posted shortly after my arrival that my preferred name is what I am called. Bob is that name.
I dunno, but few Roberts I met are called Robert. The more routine term is Bob.

Bob makes you sound friendly.

Beleive it or not, all through high school, sports is the only common theme with some of my pals. Most did not bother with sports. It was sissy to be in a drama class. It's pretend life.

All I am saying is we have spent a lot of decades doing it your way.

I pointed out that blacks, they have a drop out rate of something like 75 percent. Teachers can't reach them. Too many parents don't care.

My two grandsons are great students. But their mom, my daughter was raised by me and I focused on education like a laser. Both her sons appear to be headed to a university. My daugter graduated from a university. That is how interested I was in her education.

She also home schooled the boys until the oldest was finished with 6th grade.

It wore her out so today she has both in public schools but she hand picked the schools.

Robert A Whit

11-23-2012, 02:22 PM

If we lay off teachers, all kids will grow up like Robert -- uneducated, unable to grasp proper sentence structure, bereft of basic thought making process and doomed to a life of ignorance and lack of substance.

Oh now you are a scholar?
As to being uneducated, only in your dreams.

Tell you what, when you complain about my grammar, etc, that is the product of the public education system and the teachers.

Maybe now you grasp why I posted in favor of the kids.

As to me being doomed, at my age no matter. But you sure act superior. I have read many posters say that about you. I don't mean to take any of your light. I realize you must try to look smug and superior.

Kathianne

11-23-2012, 02:27 PM

...

Now I am charged to defend the Khan system. I suggest some visit the site and ask him to defend his program.

I am not in this for the teachers but in it for the kids.

I was not asking you to defend anything about Khan, other than what appeared to be your assertion that the site could replace education in the main.

I never attacked Khan Academy, why would I do so, when I've posted positively about it for years? Indeed in my response to your posts, repeatedly I've said whom it is a great resource for. It's strong on math and sciences. Not so much so the other areas of lower grades.

Nor is online education on its own, with or without schools, going to work well for all kids or subject areas.

Robert A Whit

11-23-2012, 02:34 PM

For historical reasons and the logic skills that get exercised by using a slide rule.

In other words: For the same reason I still play and repair my Edison Amberola porcelain music cylinder player. Someone put some of my favorites on Youtube so I won't have to wear out my favorite cylinders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih9qezA9DMc

Works for you. So, do you also have a standard slide rule and a circular slide rule?

What is amusing about your you tube video is I have actually hand cranked cars to get them to start. But at least those cars had electric starters. I also cranked old steel wheel tractors.

The things one does as a kid.

By the way, that player is quite the gem. Is that yours or one you found on you tube?

Robert A Whit

11-23-2012, 02:44 PM

I was not asking you to defend anything about Khan, other than what appeared to be your assertion that the site could replace education in the main.

I never attacked Khan Academy, why would I do so, when I've posted positively about it for years? Indeed in my response to your posts, repeatedly I've said whom it is a great resource for. It's strong on math and sciences. Not so much so the other areas of lower grades.

Nor is online education on its own, with or without schools, going to work well for all kids or subject areas.

Well, if you teach, tell me what the school drop out rate is?

And how can you resist something when you claim if has value. Maybe it needs more courses and less criticism.

I watched Kahn for an hour or so on CSPAN and appreciate his approach. Bill Gates is fully backing the concept too.

I have obtained some of my education using that same system.

If you catch a kid early enough, their natural curiousity will lead them to use such systems.

I thus far have not read a word by you as how to improve the Kahn system.

Pay to teachers is but a small amount of tax dollars. There is far too much waste in the dollar paid for education.

I wonder why certain teachers won't try to speak of how to improve this Kahn system?

One great thing about the Kahn system is that students can't repeat the day spent with the teacher but can keep watching Kahn until they master a subject.

When I studied Calculus, it was important to pay close attention to the teacher since that was the time he taught it. Missing class or thinking he would repeat material was not a smart thing to do.

Kathianne

11-23-2012, 02:47 PM

Well, if you teach, tell me what the school drop out rate is?

And how can you resist something when you claim if has value. Maybe it needs more courses and less criticism.

I watched Kahn for an hour or so on CSPAN and appreciate his approach. Bill Gates is fully backing the concept too.

I have obtained some of my education using that same system.

If you catch a kid early enough, their natural curiousity will lead them to use such systems.

I thus far have not read a word by you as how to improve the Kahn system.

Pay to teachers is but a small amount of tax dollars. There is far too much waste in the dollar paid for education.

I wonder why certain teachers won't try to speak of how to improve this Kahn system?

One great thing about the Kahn system is that students can't repeat the day spent with the teacher but can keep watching Kahn until they master a subject.

When I studied Calculus, it was important to pay close attention to the teacher since that was the time he taught it. Missing class or thinking he would repeat material was not a smart thing to do.

Off to work in a few, friend stopped by, I'll get to this tonight.

tailfins

11-23-2012, 02:53 PM

Works for you. So, do you also have a standard slide rule and a circular slide rule?

What is amusing about your you tube video is I have actually hand cranked cars to get them to start. But at least those cars had electric starters. I also cranked old steel wheel tractors.

The things one does as a kid.

By the way, that player is quite the gem. Is that yours or one you found on you tube?

Mine has a metal speaker grate, but is very similar to that one.

DragonStryk72

11-23-2012, 03:02 PM

While I do think we need to change our educational system, I don't think any kneejerk idea is going to work. What is clear is that just throwing more money at education is not working, because the problems aren't monetary in nature.

First off, we need to decrease the power of the unions to where we can fire teachers who are crap at their job, or who have just given up. I understand the need to have the power of collective bargaining, but it should never be at the expense of being able to remove those who are incapable at their jobs.

Second, we need to get off our teachers' necks. The government interferes far too much in the daily run of schools, and what teachers are required to teach. When you increase regulation, you decrease innovation, and it sucks the morale right out of the room. We need to free up our teachers to teach their way. Yes, we have standardized tests to make sure the required info is getting out there, but that's about it. Teachers, in general, know their students, and so can make more tailored decisions in how to teach their classes than folks who are half way across the country in an office that have never met them.

Three, we need to restructure how we handle schooling. Most teachers are basically teaching to the slowest person in the room, and while I understand the need to do it that way, it's also hurting the more advanced students. It would be pretty cool if, for things like Maths and Sciences, we allowed the excelling students to take advanced courses online while helping the slower ones. This frees up the teachers to deal with the average to below average students, rewards those who excel with a feeling of both accomplishment and a sense of responsibility (God forbid we teach that, right?), while at the same time, helps the slower students to pick up the pace, and helping the students socialize in a more positive, and goal-oriented manner.

This basically conforms to the three things that motivate people, Autonomy, Self-Mastery, and Purpose. The students excelling get their time in class freed up (Autonomy), while being able to advance more in what they're good at (Self-Mastery), and getting to use that mastery to help others come along (Purpose).

Robert A Whit

11-23-2012, 03:23 PM

logroller

11-23-2012, 03:38 PM

Often, I snap off quick replies since before I post, I most often do research, then post.
I gave this statement too short of a reply.
I am not clear that only Khan can fill the bill. They claim to have over 3600 videos if memory serves me well. I once again looked at their site yesterday. I have posted on other forums about Khan some years back. His program is not new. Surely by this time there are results that show if it works better or not. Many kids sit around in class rooms. I recall when I sat in class rooms, depending on the class, my friends and I could waste time telling jokes, pitching paper airplanes out the 2nd story window at the social studies class, firing water pistols at some kid in another class and getting suspended for that. I recall doodling on paper due to intense boredom.

Kahn complains that students are not told the WHY of said courses. We depend entirely on the student to inspire themselves. As it is, teachers complain over class size. Kahn's system can make teaching changes that make a mockery of the current system. I have that opinion.

Watching Kahn speak is like a drink of fresh water. Kahn explains his syste. I have yet to see a teacher explain theirs.

When Bush tried to impose more Prussion style to teaching, teachers often resisted and complained.

So far as I can tell, teachers do a lot of whining.

But look at their retirement benefits.

Kahn earns no pension for his courses.

Yes, we need to move into the modern age and toss out teachers ideas of teaching.

I believe teachers can do much more productive things than try to talk over some class that is making trouble.

What I say is not that I don't respect teachers. i have a couple of slide rules too yet why bother when my computers do it faster and rather more accurately.

Teaching wouild be more defendable had teachers not been complaining a lot.

Now I am charged to defend the Khan system. I suggest some visit the site and ask him to defend his program.

I am not in this for the teachers but in it for the kids.
why don't you go and volunteer at the local school kindergarten and explain to the kids "the whys of the system." Let me know how they respond.

Robert A Whit

11-23-2012, 03:58 PM

why don't you go and volunteer at the local school kindergarten and explain to the kids "the whys of the system." Let me know how they respond.

When I went to school, we had not heard of kindergartens.

I think only one of my teachers, in the 6th grade, tried to tell us why we needed to learn. I think for the most part teachers are paid to babysit and if they get lucky, some kid will actually learn.

As a group, this country has some of the most ignorant people walking the planet. I learned that the hard way in Germany. I found those people really were educated.

Take Slavery for instance.

Ask any poster to not look it up then tell you how many of our presidents proudly owned slaves?

Slavery was just normal then. Few gave it much thought.

I believe that Jefferson talked out both sides of his face. He was against it when he had no slaves then for it when he got them.
Washington had lots of them. Yet we rank some slave owning presidents as very high and very respected.

aboutime

11-23-2012, 04:37 PM

why don't you go and volunteer at the local school kindergarten and explain to the kids "the whys of the system." Let me know how they respond.

logroller. I'll admit to being much older than most on this forum. But. I am not, and have not reached the stage I do believe, we are seeing presented here from Robert.

It seems he reminds me more of my 93 year old Mother-in-Law, who refuses to accept how life for all of us has changed so quickly, over the last 20 or 30 years.

Like Robert. She tends to still believe she is living back in the 50, 60's, and 70's when America was in it's most drastic change stages.

Even at 65. I find Robert to be more patronizing, and condescending to most of us in many ways. Almost as if he must constantly dare us, or find a reason to remind us how much more experience he has in life. Which nobody would try to deny. But, looking down your nose at others all the time. Not allowing anyone else to claim to have any knowledge...without the permission of a Robert is just.... I don't know. Unsettling, and rather arrogant in many ways.
As you can tell. Robert seems to believe. Only he is permitted to have the Last Word, and everyone else should just shut up.

Robert A Whit

11-23-2012, 05:35 PM

logroller. I'll admit to being much older than most on this forum. But. I am not, and have not reached the stage I do believe, we are seeing presented here from Robert.

Something is wrong with you that you feel compelled to daily make me the topic. I admit you are now making me feel sorry for you. You bull shit for the sheer joy of bull shitting. This topic to remind you is ot about ME nor has it been about ME. I think you want it to be about you. Fine with me.

It seems he reminds me more of my 93 year old Mother-in-Law, who refuses to accept how life for all of us has changed so quickly, over the last 20 or 30 years.

You still shooting that mouth off???? I support Kahn education and that is current. Stop whining all the time. I told you in the past that if you want anybody to like you, you sure don't act like it. You are downright anti social. I have a pal in his 90s who is as grumpy as you are. I can handle him.

Like Robert. She tends to still believe she is living back in the 50, 60's, and 70's when America was in it's most drastic change stages.

You have attacked me daily. What the hell is wrong with you? Always flapping those gums with my name in your whining.

Even at 65. I find Robert to be more patronizing, and condescending to most of us in many ways.

Bull shit. Stop making shit up. Only in your mind can you make such wild ass claims. What's the matter. Gabby off your mind?

Almost as if he must constantly dare us, or find a reason to remind us how much more experience he has in life.

Everybody ought to know by now, MR WHINNER, that I am 74. You sound intensely jealous. You know something, of all the posters posting, you spend more time bull shitting about posters than the rest of them put together. I spotted you right off as a daily whiner and told you you won't get people to like you acting as you do. You told me you simply don't give a shit.

Which nobody would try to deny. But, looking down your nose at others all the time.

I find that in many cases, whiners like you suffer an esteem complex. Where you are compelled to run somebody down hoping it builds you up. Notice only when I reply to you am I running anybody down. You were also warned first to knock it off.

Not allowing anyone else to claim to have any knowledge...without the permission of a Robert is just.... I don't know. Unsettling, and rather arrogant in many ways.
As you can tell. Robert seems to believe. Only he is permitted to have the Last Word, and everyone else should just shut up.[/QUOTE]

You think that way and you are alone. If all the many posters posting, it is you that whines all the time. Look not at me or the others, figure out why you love whining.

Even when I ask a question, you whine. If I were as you claim, I would not bother asking questions.

Seems your message bounced off me back to you.

aboutime

11-23-2012, 05:40 PM

Something is wrong with you that you feel compelled to daily make me the topic. I admit you are now making me feel sorry for you. You bull shit for the sheer joy of bull shitting. This topic to remind you is ot about ME nor has it been about ME. I think you want it to be about you. Fine with me.

You still shooting that mouth off???? I support Kahn education and that is current. Stop whining all the time. I told you in the past that if you want anybody to like you, you sure don't act like it. You are downright anti social. I have a pal in his 90s who is as grumpy as you are. I can handle him.

You have attacked me daily. What the hell is wrong with you? Always flapping those gums with my name in your whining.

Bull shit. Stop making shit up. Only in your mind can you make such wild ass claims. What's the matter. Gabby off your mind?

Everybody ought to know by now, MR WHINNER, that I am 74. You sound intensely jealous. You know something, of all the posters posting, you spend more time bull shitting about posters than the rest of them put together. I spotted you right off as a daily whiner and told you you won't get people to like you acting as you do. You told me you simply don't give a shit.

I find that in many cases, whiners like you suffer an esteem complex. Where you are compelled to run somebody down hoping it builds you up. Notice only when I reply to you am I running anybody down. You were also warned first to knock it off.

Not allowing anyone else to claim to have any knowledge...without the permission of a Robert is just.... I don't know. Unsettling, and rather arrogant in many ways.
As you can tell. Robert seems to believe. Only he is permitted to have the Last Word, and everyone else should just shut up.

You think that way and you are alone. If all the many posters posting, it is you that whines all the time. Look not at me or the others, figure out why you love whining.

Even when I ask a question, you whine. If I were as you claim, I would not bother asking questions.

Seems your message bounced off me back to you.[/QUOTE]

Robert. Keep chewing.

Robert A Whit

11-23-2012, 05:44 PM

You think that way and you are alone. If all the many posters posting, it is you that whines all the time. Look not at me or the others, figure out why you love whining.

Even when I ask a question, you whine. If I were as you claim, I would not bother asking questions.

Seems your message bounced off me back to you.

Robert. Keep chewing.[/QUOTE]

You are the only SOB I am having to defend myself from.

Something in those shorts appeal to you only.

Keep your filthy insults to yourself.

aboutime

11-23-2012, 06:42 PM

Robert. Keep chewing.

You are the only SOB I am having to defend myself from.

Something in those shorts appeal to you only.

Keep your filthy insults to yourself.[/QUOTE]

Whatever you say. Look at how immature your responses have been Robert.

I had no intention of arguing with you from the outset. But your condescending words, and attitude sorta makes it Impossible to resist responding IN KIND to your endless scolding, and whining.

As I said previously. If you use that IGNORE feature you spoke of earlier. There would be no reason for you to complain about insults.

Robert A Whit

11-23-2012, 07:09 PM

You are the only SOB I am having to defend myself from.

Something in those shorts appeal to you only.

Keep your filthy insults to yourself.

Whatever you say. Look at how immature your responses have been Robert.

I had no intention of arguing with you from the outset. But your condescending words, and attitude sorta makes it Impossible to resist responding IN KIND to your endless scolding, and whining.

As I said previously. If you use that IGNORE feature you spoke of earlier. There would be no reason for you to complain about insults.[/QUOTE]

You still ranting I see. Of course your insults are mature?

You mean like eat your crappy shorts?

My god man

You beling in the nut hospital.

I have to keep an eye on you since you are so immature.

aboutime

11-23-2012, 07:17 PM

Whatever you say. Look at how immature your responses have been Robert.

I had no intention of arguing with you from the outset. But your condescending words, and attitude sorta makes it Impossible to resist responding IN KIND to your endless scolding, and whining.

As I said previously. If you use that IGNORE feature you spoke of earlier. There would be no reason for you to complain about insults.

You still ranting I see. Of course your insults are mature?

You mean like eat your crappy shorts?

My god man

You beling in the nut hospital.

I have to keep an eye on you since you are so immature.[/QUOTE]

You're really good at that Robert. Tell ya what I'll do. As you seem to like to do. You can take every word I type here, and take it to use as you like whenever, and however you like.

WAIT A SECOND. You already did that.

Robert A Whit

11-23-2012, 07:29 PM

You still ranting I see. Of course your insults are mature?

You mean like eat your crappy shorts?

My god man

You beling in the nut hospital.

I have to keep an eye on you since you are so immature.

You're really good at that Robert. Tell ya what I'll do. As you seem to like to do. You can take every word I type here, and take it to use as you like whenever, and however you like.

WAIT A SECOND. You already did that.

You belong under the care of mental doctors. Now you approve your own immaturity. Figures.

Explain this. Why are you the one and only poster that I have trouble with?

I have had to defend myself from you shortly after i came to post.

DragonStryk72

11-23-2012, 11:18 PM

Kahn is no kneejerk solution.

Ask yourself this.

Would you pay 100 dollars for 20 dollars work?

The math does not work.

Kahn has a system that costs students nothing.

Visit the site. Evaluate it for yourself. Then imagine the system is designed with all the courses needed to get into a university.

Khan has done a remarkable job given he charges students nothing.

Bear in mind that for each teacher, there are a large number who don't teach, collecting paychecks for nothing more than administration.

Most of the money does not end up in the teachers accounts.

We must focus the money for the best good.

Read What I actually wrote. I made no mention of Khan, did not discuss it in any way shape or form. Please stop jumping on people for somewhat agreeing with you, but not to the extent you'd like. Simply because I didn't parrot you, doesn't mean I don't see good points. However, jumping on me? Best way to get me to disagree with you out of spite.

DragonStryk72

11-23-2012, 11:20 PM

When I went to school, we had not heard of kindergartens.

I think only one of my teachers, in the 6th grade, tried to tell us why we needed to learn. I think for the most part teachers are paid to babysit and if they get lucky, some kid will actually learn.

As a group, this country has some of the most ignorant people walking the planet. I learned that the hard way in Germany. I found those people really were educated.

Take Slavery for instance.

Ask any poster to not look it up then tell you how many of our presidents proudly owned slaves?

Slavery was just normal then. Few gave it much thought.

I believe that Jefferson talked out both sides of his face. He was against it when he had no slaves then for it when he got them.
Washington had lots of them. Yet we rank some slave owning presidents as very high and very respected.

So, you're ignorant and wished to disparage the ignorant? Not a good plan of attack.

DragonStryk72

11-23-2012, 11:35 PM

This is another topic that was inspired by Book TV on Cspan.

Kahn?

Name ring a bell?

This respected teacher says he will not start a school since it is not the best format for learning.

Kahn has an online academy where many topics are taught.

I got to thinking.

Why not lay off teachers?

Kahn, on Book TV spoke of the small sum of your money that ends up in the class room.

Teachers pay is often used as political tennis.

Bat the ball back and forth.

Kahn calls the education system, the PRUSSIAN model.

It stifles being educated.

I suggest before you argue this point, you owe it to yourself to get to the CSPAN site and listen to what he says.

I also urge you all to go visit Kahns site and tell kids they can get superior education on his site. And it is free. Kahn makes all of this available for FREE.

So, since he can educate the people FOR FREE,

Why not lay off teachers?

And, Btw, it's like Khan said "We do not view this as a complete Math education."

Kathianne

11-24-2012, 12:51 AM

Well, if you teach, tell me what the school drop out rate is? For the US or my districts?

And how can you resist something when you claim if has value. Maybe it needs more courses and less criticism.

I watched Kahn for an hour or so on CSPAN and appreciate his approach. Bill Gates is fully backing the concept too.

I have obtained some of my education using that same system. I praised it repeatedly. Somewhere you said that, 'You'd not seen my posts on that. Sorry, I write and you choose what to read.

I've written about Khan University numerous times over the past 3 or 4 years. I'm impressed and had some of my students that were struggling in math to start at the beginning of the sequence they were in, moving along at their own pace. I didn't teach math, but during study halls would know the kids well enough to discuss how they were doing. If their math teacher was failing to help them, Khan was probably better.

It's math presented in a basic form, with plenty of exercises, something greatly missing from today's math books. Doesn't matter if the lesson is 'adding positive integers' or 'calculus' the presentation is direct, followed by practice problems.

The practices are all on the lesson just presented, not throwing in 'how would you do this? types of problems, no one can figure out where those problems are coming from, as often they are on math topic for future, with no introduction. University of Chicago texts are famous for that, worked for my son, but he is gifted in math. For most, it's not only confusing, but an unnecessary cause for more 'math phobia.'

If it works for you, great. Your testimony and Bill Gates doesn't mean it's right format for all students, for all subject, all the time.

If you catch a kid early enough, their natural curiousity will lead them to use such systems. You claim to have had children, you really believe the best school system will have a kid sitting in front of a computer for 7 hours a day, minus 40 minutes for lunch and some recess, I'm guessing you'd provide volunteers for that monitoring, as well as the classrooms? Or are all the kids being homeschooled?

I thus far have not read a word by you as how to improve the Kahn system. I'm not going to get into the physical, mental, and social differences of and between age cohorts. Within age cohorts there are also many differences. I can't see online classes being anything other than supplementary and occasional at least through 5th grade. Even in middle school, sitting more than 45 minutes won't work for most kids.

In high school many more students could do such, but wouldn't want to have it be sole type of learning. You could have a new problem with drop outs of a different nature.

Pay to teachers is but a small amount of tax dollars. There is far too much waste in the dollar paid for education. Ok, list what other waste you are speaking of? I'll give you administration costs being too high, now you.

I wonder why certain teachers won't try to speak of how to improve this Kahn system? I believe he's had remarkable results in having teachers volunteer to work up plans for new courses. The deal is, they have to be professorial, something lacking in most classroom teachers. Which is actually a plus, not a deficiency.

One great thing about the Kahn system is that students can't repeat the day spent with the teacher but can keep watching Kahn until they master a subject. I totally agree with you here. It's why it's so effective for math and sciences. Even on the issue of notetaking, the students having problems 'keeping up' can replay it over and over, bringing their notes up to par.

When I studied Calculus, it was important to pay close attention to the teacher since that was the time he taught it. Missing class or thinking he would repeat material was not a smart thing to do.

While I do think we need to change our educational system, I don't think any kneejerk idea is going to work. What is clear is that just throwing more money at education is not working, because the problems aren't monetary in nature. Exactly, I agree that many schools could take at least a 1/3 of a budget cut and manage fine. Problem is that these tend to be very well funded schools, those with parents that not only encourage education, but enrich their child's base of knowledge by reading, discussions, activities and trips. The parents more or less vote overwhelmingly for referendums for schools, donate more money for pep clubs, field trips and outside presenters for assemblies, and on and on.

First off, we need to decrease the power of the unions to where we can fire teachers who are crap at their job, or who have just given up. I understand the need to have the power of collective bargaining, but it should never be at the expense of being able to remove those who are incapable at their jobs. I agree 100%. I don't think collective bargaining is even sacrosanct, the biggest hurdle is evaluating and protecting teachers that want to raise the bar for their students. The problem of keeping all grade level classes at the same point regarding materials is asinine.

Second, we need to get off our teachers' necks. The government interferes far too much in the daily run of schools, and what teachers are required to teach. When you increase regulation, you decrease innovation, and it sucks the morale right out of the room. We need to free up our teachers to teach their way. Yes, we have standardized tests to make sure the required info is getting out there, but that's about it. Teachers, in general, know their students, and so can make more tailored decisions in how to teach their classes than folks who are half way across the country in an office that have never met them. This is spot on regarding what I was bringing up just prior.

Three, we need to restructure how we handle schooling. Most teachers are basically teaching to the slowest person in the room, and while I understand the need to do it that way, it's also hurting the more advanced students. It would be pretty cool if, for things like Maths and Sciences, we allowed the excelling students to take advanced courses online while helping the slower ones. This frees up the teachers to deal with the average to below average students, rewards those who excel with a feeling of both accomplishment and a sense of responsibility (God forbid we teach that, right?), while at the same time, helps the slower students to pick up the pace, and helping the students socialize in a more positive, and goal-oriented manner. My master's work was with differentiation: teaching each child in their 'best mode' of mastering the content. It's not 'all art' or 'all direct instruction' for each student. It's providing multiple ways of understanding the content and allowing for various methods of being evaluated. The more advanced students often will stay for direct instruction, then work independently doing research on laptops or in the LLC.

Direct instruction, (lecture), is without a doubt, the best and quickest way to get from A to B. Often at the university level, that's all she wrote, for good reasons. High schools use direct instruction very heavily. However, within a single classroom one is dealing with students that can't or won't take notes; have major problems understanding oral presentations, (i.e., ESL, Hearing problems, processing problems, lower IQ are some of the issues). Teachers try to compensate with: projection notes, illustrations, graphic organizers, handouts of summaries on topic). They are also confronted with high achieving but not identified as 'gifted' in the same classroom. Then there are the vast majority, those in the middle, (which depending on the subject, enlarges or shrinks).

The lower grades, (which I don't teach, but have studied and have written mini-lessons for) depending upon grade and class make-up need, 5-15 minutes of direct instruction; 10 minutes evaluation of understanding by either a 'worksheet' or mini-project with a partner; 5 minutes re-teach; independent practice begun in class, assigned for homework.

This basically conforms to the three things that motivate people, Autonomy, Self-Mastery, and Purpose. The students excelling get their time in class freed up (Autonomy), while being able to advance more in what they're good at (Self-Mastery), and getting to use that mastery to help others come along (Purpose).

Very well stated.

DragonStryk72

11-24-2012, 03:36 AM

Exactly, I agree that many schools could take at least a 1/3 of a budget cut and manage fine. Problem is that these tend to be very well funded schools, those with parents that not only encourage education, but enrich their child's base of knowledge by reading, discussions, activities and trips. The parents more or less vote overwhelmingly for referendums for schools, donate more money for pep clubs, field trips and outside presenters for assemblies, and on and on.

Basically, money is only a factor in so much as there needs to be enough that it isn't a problem. I think one of the big reasons that extra-curricular activities work so well in elevating education is that they apply a purpose to learning in the areas that they're interested in, and give them a group of people like them who share a common interest.

I agree 100%. I don't think collective bargaining is even sacrosanct, the biggest hurdle is evaluating and protecting teachers that want to raise the bar for their students. The problem of keeping all grade level classes at the same point regarding materials is asinine. This is spot on regarding what I was bringing up just prior.

Exactly, and many of those teachers who've given up were once teachers that wanted to raise the bar, but got crushed by the system.

Keeping all grade level classes the same is probably the biggest contributor to my own lack of enthusiasm for getting educated. I was so bored 90% of the time that I just stopped taking notes all together, because I already knew the stuff within the first time or two it was gone over, then would get stuck sitting there listening to the teacher talk about for a few more days. It was even worse for me with reading assignments, where I wouldn't be able to read ahead. I could have knocked out the whole thing in a day, but no, I've gotta sit there and agonizingly go over each and every chapter, evaluating the various ways of reading into things in the chapter... Ugh.

My master's work was with differentiation: teaching each child in their 'best mode' of mastering the content. It's not 'all art' or 'all direct instruction' for each student. It's providing multiple ways of understanding the content and allowing for various methods of being evaluated. The more advanced students often will stay for direct instruction, then work independently doing research on laptops or in the LLC.

The big thing for me was getting to something new once I had information down, because truthfully, once I have my momentum, I can keep going for a very long span of time. I think that there are a number of students out there like me who just aren't being reached. We still need a teacher in the classroom, to answer questions on the subject matter, or about extrapolations of learned material, but as well, application would help a lot of times.

Direct instruction, (lecture), is without a doubt, the best and quickest way to get from A to B. Often at the university level, that's all she wrote, for good reasons. High schools use direct instruction very heavily. However, within a single classroom one is dealing with students that can't or won't take notes; have major problems understanding oral presentations, (i.e., ESL, Hearing problems, processing problems, lower IQ are some of the issues). Teachers try to compensate with: projection notes, illustrations, graphic organizers, handouts of summaries on topic). They are also confronted with high achieving but not identified as 'gifted' in the same classroom. Then there are the vast majority, those in the middle, (which depending on the subject, enlarges or shrinks).

What I really needed was something to do while others caught up. If I'd been able to help those around me, it would've made everything else far more tolerable. lol, you know, I didn't even take notes in my junior year of Chemistry? finished the year with an 89 average. It was just easier for me to listen to the info without having to also concentrate on writing shorthand. To this day, my buddy Jim hates that I was able to do that, cause he was sitting next to me the whole year, furiously taking notes and studying.... and barely passed the course.

The lower grades, (which I don't teach, but have studied and have written mini-lessons for) depending upon grade and class make-up need, 5-15 minutes of direct instruction; 10 minutes evaluation of understanding by either a 'worksheet' or mini-project with a partner; 5 minutes re-teach; independent practice begun in class, assigned for homework.

Very well stated.

This to me, is basic. To motivate students to learn, you have to understand motivation in the first place, and most people don't, really.

Kathianne

11-25-2012, 12:41 AM

I just want to respond to a couple of points DS, (blue) wrote:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Kathianne http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=594903#post594903)

Exactly, I agree that many schools could take at least a 1/3 of a budget cut and manage fine. Problem is that these tend to be very well funded schools, those with parents that not only encourage education, but enrich their child's base of knowledge by reading, discussions, activities and trips. The parents more or less vote overwhelmingly for referendums for schools, donate more money for pep clubs, field trips and outside presenters for assemblies, and on and on.

Basically, money is only a factor in so much as there needs to be enough that it isn't a problem. I think one of the big reasons that extra-curricular activities work so well in elevating education is that they apply a purpose to learning in the areas that they're interested in, and give them a group of people like them who share a common interest.

Schools costs more than most think, mostly due to rising costs of administration; salaries across the board, (particularly administrative); and pensions for all staff.

I've always attended and lived in areas with 'elite public schools,' though I attended parochial for grades 1-6. The district I lived in for more than 40 years, attending from 7-12. Only once in my lifetime has a referendum not past there. Why that once? A temporary bad administration and school board. The high school was built in 1903. Back in the 30's when my dad was there in high school, a kid drowned. They covered the pool with a gym floor, making a 'girl's gym.'

When my daughter was in kindergarten, there was a demand to get a pool in the high school. Folks argued that the school was too old, that the costs were really high. They decided to put it to a referendum. It passed. The pool opened when she was in 2nd grade. By the time she was in 6th grade, the board and administration came to realize they couldn't keep up with the antiquated school regarding electrical, heating, and wifi. They again came for a referendum, folks balked. The next election they put the referendum up again, it passed.

The school was razed and rebuilt in sections, never closing for classes, by 2001. Cost? Over $100M. Part of the costs were to keep the school facade the same as the one built in 1903. Seriously. Not a peep of protest after the 'warning' of the earlier election. It looks 'very old.' Enrollment is a tad over 3500.

Seems to me they could have spent less and still had an attractive school, but the main purpose was accomplished, the school is tech ready and they are able to allow if needed, every student and teacher to run on wifi at the same time. They have laptops, notebooks, smartboards, etc. for all classrooms. It can be updated easily in the future.

Oh yea, they have 2 swimming pools now. The people can afford the taxes, but not all areas can.

Usually the district has very able administration and board. In fact, while they are at the 'high end' of unit district salaries in the state, they were the first to go to unit district basis, as opposed to a 'grammar school district and high school district.' Not only did it keep costs down in the high schools, but it also allowed for better curriculum planning from the bottom up. High school teachers meet with lower grade teachers every few years, sharing what the kids are and aren't prepared for.

I agree 100%. I don't think collective bargaining is even sacrosanct, the biggest hurdle is evaluating and protecting teachers that want to raise the bar for their students. The problem of keeping all grade level classes at the same point regarding materials is asinine. This is spot on regarding what I was bringing up just prior.

Exactly, and many of those teachers who've given up were once teachers that wanted to raise the bar, but got crushed by the system.

Keeping all grade level classes the same is probably the biggest contributor to my own lack of enthusiasm for getting educated. I was so bored 90% of the time that I just stopped taking notes all together, because I already knew the stuff within the first time or two it was gone over, then would get stuck sitting there listening to the teacher talk about for a few more days. It was even worse for me with reading assignments, where I wouldn't be able to read ahead. I could have knocked out the whole thing in a day, but no, I've gotta sit there and agonizingly go over each and every chapter, evaluating the various ways of reading into things in the chapter... Ugh.

That's where differentiation can really help, low and high ends. Once material is proven mastered, another assignment providing more depth can be given. It maybe along the lines of Khan assignment or a report for class or teacher only, on some aspect that the student finds of interest. I don't know how many know that elementary 'permanent records' provide not only the grades issued, but whether the grades were earned at 'level' or 'advanced' or 'remedial/modified?' They do, at least in Illinois.

My master's work was with differentiation: teaching each child in their 'best mode' of mastering the content. It's not 'all art' or 'all direct instruction' for each student. It's providing multiple ways of understanding the content and allowing for various methods of being evaluated. The more advanced students often will stay for direct instruction, then work independently doing research on laptops or in the LLC.

The big thing for me was getting to something new once I had information down, because truthfully, once I have my momentum, I can keep going for a very long span of time. I think that there are a number of students out there like me who just aren't being reached. We still need a teacher in the classroom, to answer questions on the subject matter, or about extrapolations of learned material, but as well, application would help a lot of times.

Students should not be in a position of having 'nothing to do' or busywork. While lower end kids will often claim to be 'bored' if they can't pass an assessment they need to keep at what they are doing or another simplified assignment should be given. The higher kids should be given something of more depth or show some connections with other subjects or within the content being studied. They should not be used as 'helpers.' They have a right to getting the most education as they can, just like everyone else in the classroom.

Direct instruction, (lecture), is without a doubt, the best and quickest way to get from A to B. Often at the university level, that's all she wrote, for good reasons. High schools use direct instruction very heavily. However, within a single classroom one is dealing with students that can't or won't take notes; have major problems understanding oral presentations, (i.e., ESL, Hearing problems, processing problems, lower IQ are some of the issues). Teachers try to compensate with: projection notes, illustrations, graphic organizers, handouts of summaries on topic). They are also confronted with high achieving but not identified as 'gifted' in the same classroom. Then there are the vast majority, those in the middle, (which depending on the subject, enlarges or shrinks).

What I really needed was something to do while others caught up. If I'd been able to help those around me, it would've made everything else far more tolerable. lol, you know, I didn't even take notes in my junior year of Chemistry? finished the year with an 89 average. It was just easier for me to listen to the info without having to also concentrate on writing shorthand. To this day, my buddy Jim hates that I was able to do that, cause he was sitting next to me the whole year, furiously taking notes and studying.... and barely passed the course.

You're probably a strong auditory learner with a good memory. ;) Then again, chemistry wasn't difficult for you. Some are just lucky that way.

The lower grades, (which I don't teach, but have studied and have written mini-lessons for) depending upon grade and class make-up need, 5-15 minutes of direct instruction; 10 minutes evaluation of understanding by either a 'worksheet' or mini-project with a partner; 5 minutes re-teach; independent practice begun in class, assigned for homework.

Very well stated.

DragonStryk72

11-25-2012, 01:27 AM

I just want to respond to a couple of points DS, (blue) wrote:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Kathianne http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=594903#post594903)

Basically, money is only a factor in so much as there needs to be enough that it isn't a problem. I think one of the big reasons that extra-curricular activities work so well in elevating education is that they apply a purpose to learning in the areas that they're interested in, and give them a group of people like them who share a common interest.

Schools costs more than most think, mostly due to rising costs of administration; salaries across the board, (particularly administrative); and pensions for all staff.

I've always attended and lived in areas with 'elite public schools,' though I attended parochial for grades 1-6. The district I lived in for more than 40 years, attending from 7-12. Only once in my lifetime has a referendum not past there. Why that once? A temporary bad administration and school board. The high school was built in 1903. Back in the 30's when my dad was there in high school, a kid drowned. They covered the pool with a gym floor, making a 'girl's gym.'

When my daughter was in kindergarten, there was a demand to get a pool in the high school. Folks argued that the school was too old, that the costs were really high. They decided to put it to a referendum. It passed. The pool opened when she was in 2nd grade. By the time she was in 6th grade, the board and administration came to realize they couldn't keep up with the antiquated school regarding electrical, heating, and wifi. They again came for a referendum, folks balked. The next election they put the referendum up again, it passed.

The school was razed and rebuilt in sections, never closing for classes, by 2001. Cost? Over $100M. Part of the costs were to keep the school facade the same as the one built in 1903. Seriously. Not a peep of protest after the 'warning' of the earlier election. It looks 'very old.' Enrollment is a tad over 3500.

Seems to me they could have spent less and still had an attractive school, but the main purpose was accomplished, the school is tech ready and they are able to allow if needed, every student and teacher to run on wifi at the same time. They have laptops, notebooks, smartboards, etc. for all classrooms. It can be updated easily in the future.

Oh yea, they have 2 swimming pools now. The people can afford the taxes, but not all areas can.

Usually the district has very able administration and board. In fact, while they are at the 'high end' of unit district salaries in the state, they were the first to go to unit district basis, as opposed to a 'grammar school district and high school district.' Not only did it keep costs down in the high schools, but it also allowed for better curriculum planning from the bottom up. High school teachers meet with lower grade teachers every few years, sharing what the kids are and aren't prepared for.

I understand about funding, but there are so other issues with it. We're very wrong headed about how we handle funding schools. If you were in a corporation, and came in with solid numbers and under budget, you would be praised, and maybe given either a promotion, a bonus, or a small raise. In schools oft times, coming in under budget seems to get your budget cut, basically punishing the admin for saving the state money, in a way.

I agree 100%. I don't think collective bargaining is even sacrosanct, the biggest hurdle is evaluating and protecting teachers that want to raise the bar for their students. The problem of keeping all grade level classes at the same point regarding materials is asinine. This is spot on regarding what I was bringing up just prior.

Exactly, and many of those teachers who've given up were once teachers that wanted to raise the bar, but got crushed by the system.

Keeping all grade level classes the same is probably the biggest contributor to my own lack of enthusiasm for getting educated. I was so bored 90% of the time that I just stopped taking notes all together, because I already knew the stuff within the first time or two it was gone over, then would get stuck sitting there listening to the teacher talk about for a few more days. It was even worse for me with reading assignments, where I wouldn't be able to read ahead. I could have knocked out the whole thing in a day, but no, I've gotta sit there and agonizingly go over each and every chapter, evaluating the various ways of reading into things in the chapter... Ugh.

That's where differentiation can really help, low and high ends. Once material is proven mastered, another assignment providing more depth can be given. It maybe along the lines of Khan assignment or a report for class or teacher only, on some aspect that the student finds of interest. I don't know how many know that elementary 'permanent records' provide not only the grades issued, but whether the grades were earned at 'level' or 'advanced' or 'remedial/modified?' They do, at least in Illinois.

Differentiation sounds like it could have helped immensely. Khan Academy would have helped as well, and I've even started using it now, myself. My worse subject, far and away, was history, mostly because it was the most stale thing I got taught. It was when I got to Colonial Williamsburg after Navy that it changed for me, and I started really learning about history, free of the system I'd been stuck in. I started reading things like Benjamin Franklin's biography, and other books about the founders, then moved to different places and leaders as I wanted to. In class, we stuck to what was mostly more of an overview of history, with little really in-depth discussion of the matter, and for me, that absolutely kills my interest in the topic. Then I started learning about the Three Kingdoms era of China, and that sounded AWESOME, but I was out of the Navy already, with school a ways behind me.

My master's work was with differentiation: teaching each child in their 'best mode' of mastering the content. It's not 'all art' or 'all direct instruction' for each student. It's providing multiple ways of understanding the content and allowing for various methods of being evaluated. The more advanced students often will stay for direct instruction, then work independently doing research on laptops or in the LLC.

The big thing for me was getting to something new once I had information down, because truthfully, once I have my momentum, I can keep going for a very long span of time. I think that there are a number of students out there like me who just aren't being reached. We still need a teacher in the classroom, to answer questions on the subject matter, or about extrapolations of learned material, but as well, application would help a lot of times.

Students should not be in a position of having 'nothing to do' or busywork. While lower end kids will often claim to be 'bored' if they can't pass an assessment they need to keep at what they are doing or another simplified assignment should be given. The higher kids should be given something of more depth or show some connections with other subjects or within the content being studied. They should not be used as 'helpers.' They have a right to getting the most education as they can, just like everyone else in the classroom.

True, but on the other end of that, there is more to education than what is taught in class. Socialization is also very important, but class doesn't really teach that at all, when you come down to it. It's almost always just a bunch of people sitting in somewhat uncomfortable chairs listening to someone else talk for 40 minutes, until college, when it's sitting in slight more comfortable seat for 1.5-3 hours of talking.

We'll use a Japanese example for a counterpoint here. In Japan, every student is involved with at least one club, making it so that direct interaction with their classmates, lower classmen, and upper classmen is built into the school day by nature.

Direct instruction, (lecture), is without a doubt, the best and quickest way to get from A to B. Often at the university level, that's all she wrote, for good reasons. High schools use direct instruction very heavily. However, within a single classroom one is dealing with students that can't or won't take notes; have major problems understanding oral presentations, (i.e., ESL, Hearing problems, processing problems, lower IQ are some of the issues). Teachers try to compensate with: projection notes, illustrations, graphic organizers, handouts of summaries on topic). They are also confronted with high achieving but not identified as 'gifted' in the same classroom. Then there are the vast majority, those in the middle, (which depending on the subject, enlarges or shrinks).

What I really needed was something to do while others caught up. If I'd been able to help those around me, it would've made everything else far more tolerable. lol, you know, I didn't even take notes in my junior year of Chemistry? finished the year with an 89 average. It was just easier for me to listen to the info without having to also concentrate on writing shorthand. To this day, my buddy Jim hates that I was able to do that, cause he was sitting next to me the whole year, furiously taking notes and studying.... and barely passed the course.

You're probably a strong auditory learner with a good memory. ;) Then again, chemistry wasn't difficult for you. Some are just lucky that way.

Oh, it's not just auditory. I just learn fast in general, but that almost never got addressed by any of my teachers, and even at times, I was being held in place. It's extremely frustrating when you don't know how to put into words what it is that's bugging you, and by the time two of my teachers did, Mrs. Curran and Doctor Stephens, it was my senior year. If anything, I had been taught to "dumb myself down" over the years, until I got caught at it by Stephens in Astronomy class. We were doing basically Jeopardy, and I cleared the entire Mars section by myself off the top of my head. It was game, I wanted my team to win. That was when he went over my grades, and found the pattern to them. Ah, that was a fun talk. Mrs. Curran simply offered me the ability in Creative Writing to go where I wanted to, and found that I had a talent that I was unaware of.

;

Kathianne

11-25-2012, 05:41 PM

I'm more than willing to discuss my ideas regarding education. In this instance, I was responding. Seems the poster that 'was calling me out' has done a post and bail. Maybe not, but time is passing.

aboutime

11-25-2012, 05:47 PM

I'm more than willing to discuss my ideas regarding education. In this instance, I was responding. Seems the poster that 'was calling me out' has done a post and bail. Maybe not, but time is passing.

Kathianne. I suspect. It's a good bet. Most all of us have our own feelings, and opinions about the state of our Education, from every aspect in the political realm.

Seems that not one of us can find mutual agreement with regard to education. And, since most of us have nothing to do, professionally with teaching, or as educators. It's also a rather safe bet....In my opinion. We will never reach common ground on the subject.

As the father of two grown men, and the grandfather of five. My concerns for their education are directed at their EDUCATION, and NOT THE Teachers who are being exposed as the Unqualified members, who remain on their jobs. Protected by many aspects of the Selfishness created by Union memberships.

Kathianne

11-25-2012, 05:50 PM

Kathianne. I suspect. It's a good bet. Most all of us have our own feelings, and opinions about the state of our Education, from every aspect in the political realm.

Seems that not one of us can find mutual agreement with regard to education. And, since most of us have nothing to do, professionally with teaching, or as educators. It's also a rather safe bet....In my opinion. We will never reach common ground on the subject.

As the father of two grown men, and the grandfather of five. My concerns for their education are directed at their EDUCATION, and NOT THE Teachers who are being exposed as the Unqualified members, who remain on their jobs. Protected by many aspects of the Selfishness created by Union memberships.

AT, no disrespect meant, but what in the hell does your response have to do with the long post by DS and myself? If you agree, disagree, or somewhere inbetween, can you spell it out? Please.

aboutime

11-25-2012, 06:02 PM

AT, no disrespect meant, but what in the hell does your response have to do with the long post by DS and myself? If you agree, disagree, or somewhere inbetween, can you spell it out? Please.

Kathianne. Okay. First. You will not like this, and will disagree. I would CLOSE the NEA, and the Federal Department of Education.

Secondly. Despite the Union controls. I would find a way to FIRE....I say again...FIRE every Unqualified, Child Molesting, Phony teacher who is paid to do nothing eight hours a day, with full benefits.

I would STOP throwing money at the Problems that have never been resolved by throwing more money at them.

Yes. Teachers who are qualified, and love to teach should be paid more. But. They must earn what they are paid. Not because they are there, but for the Results they produce in EDUCATED children in their charge.

Politicians are phonies. Most of us agree. But we must prevent politicians from using the MORE MONEY excuse that wins them votes. Everyone knows. If a Politicians mentions the words "OUR CHILDREN", everyone falls on their knee's, and worships the ground the Phony politician walks on.
MONEY has NEVER solved the Education, or Teaching problems.
If anything. MONEY has been the cause of perpetual problems in education, and teaching.

Now Kathianne. Even though I am nowhere near being a highly educated, Educator. As dumb as you, or anyone else will accuse me of being. I am merely responding to your request above...like every other Concerned American. Whether I use proper grammar, spelling, or expression correctly.
Does that answer your questions?

Kathianne

11-25-2012, 06:21 PM

Kathianne. Okay. First. You will not like this, and will disagree. I would CLOSE the NEA, and the Federal Department of Education.

Secondly. Despite the Union controls. I would find a way to FIRE....I say again...FIRE every Unqualified, Child Molesting, Phony teacher who is paid to do nothing eight hours a day, with full benefits.

I would STOP throwing money at the Problems that have never been resolved by throwing more money at them.

Yes. Teachers who are qualified, and love to teach should be paid more. But. They must earn what they are paid. Not because they are there, but for the Results they produce in EDUCATED children in their charge.

Politicians are phonies. Most of us agree. But we must prevent politicians from using the MORE MONEY excuse that wins them votes. Everyone knows. If a Politicians mentions the words "OUR CHILDREN", everyone falls on their knee's, and worships the ground the Phony politician walks on.
MONEY has NEVER solved the Education, or Teaching problems.
If anything. MONEY has been the cause of perpetual problems in education, and teaching.

Now Kathianne. Even though I am nowhere near being a highly educated, Educator. As dumb as you, or anyone else will accuse me of being. I am merely responding to your request above...like every other Concerned American. Whether I use proper grammar, spelling, or expression correctly.
Does that answer your questions?

I don't disagree with any of the things you 'assumed I would.' So what about all that hasn't a thing to do with costs?

aboutime

11-25-2012, 06:43 PM

I don't disagree with any of the things you 'assumed I would.' So what about all that hasn't a thing to do with costs?

Perhaps a better way of saying it might have been. A better use, or administration of the money (costs) used by the individual school districts, rather than being specified by Political cronies, or special interests who take away the responsibilities of proper use, and spending. Which is why I would first, take away all FEDERAL control of the funding for the schools, teachers, and the Overpopulated Administrators who manage to become eventual Political hacks.

As I said Kathianne. I am by no means a professional, nor do I claim to be expert at this. But I do recognize how common sense, logic, and personal responsibility for Education has been hijacked by the political will of both Admin, and the Power hungry unions.

Kathianne

11-25-2012, 06:46 PM

Perhaps a better way of saying it might have been. A better use, or administration of the money (costs) used by the individual school districts, rather than being specified by Political cronies, or special interests who take away the responsibilities of proper use, and spending. Which is why I would first, take away all FEDERAL control of the funding for the schools, teachers, and the Overpopulated Administrators who manage to become eventual Political hacks.

As I said Kathianne. I am by no means a professional, nor do I claim to be expert at this. But I do recognize how common sense, logic, and personal responsibility for Education has been hijacked by the political will of both Admin, and the Power hungry unions.

Ok, what you are saying about 'professional' wasn't a factor in the long and multiple factors DS and I discussed. You chose to go around them. That's fine, just not sure why you jumped in here.

Bob on the other hand, has been noticeably absent, though around the neighborhood. He was the one that instigated this discussion.

aboutime

11-25-2012, 06:56 PM

Ok, what you are saying about 'professional' wasn't a factor in the long and multiple factors DS and I discussed. You chose to go around them. That's fine, just not sure why you jumped in here.

Bob on the other hand, has been noticeably absent, though around the neighborhood. He was the one that instigated this discussion.

Kathianne. If I appeared to go AROUND them. I can't deny that. You see. Offering my opinion here on this subject is just that. An opinion. I have no real qualifications to present since I am not related to, nor have I ever been a member of the Teaching profession.
But. Like every other American. I do feel I have the right to express myself, as I like on topics like this.

I fully understand my opinions offered here, may not meet the approval of those who always demand EXACTING grammar usage, vocabulary, and spelling. But. I can say. What you see from me is what you get, as the product of the American public school system where the importance of Arithmetic, History, English, Geography, and Science was MANDATORY to graduate.
Unlike today...wondering whether my education would get me a passing grade for MUTUAL ADMIRATION of little boys who wish they were Little Girls.
That, among other things. Is where I draw the line, and see Educational excellence going down the drain.

Kathianne

11-25-2012, 07:00 PM

aboutime

11-25-2012, 07:05 PM

Once again, not sure what your point is. Did I in any way criticize your spelling, grammar, what have you? Did I challenge you in anyway? My only point was that the first response of yours had little or nothing to do with the conversation. That was it.

Let's leave it at that Kathianne. I guess I just have trouble expressing myself to meet whatever expectations you have. I'm not looking for arguments, and as I said before.
I am not qualified to have this discussion....based on the impressions of others. NOT YOU, about the use of grammar, spelling, and vocabulary. In other words. I have told you what I know. We could go on for days, and still not satisfy what you are looking to hear.

Kathianne

11-25-2012, 07:18 PM

Let's leave it at that Kathianne. I guess I just have trouble expressing myself to meet whatever expectations you have. I'm not looking for arguments, and as I said before.
I am not qualified to have this discussion....based on the impressions of others. NOT YOU, about the use of grammar, spelling, and vocabulary. In other words. I have told you what I know. We could go on for days, and still not satisfy what you are looking to hear.

My expectations were for others, including yourself to respond to what had come before. BOB started this thread, DS and I, I thought moved it along. I was hoping BOB might comment, but alas not.

Your post was not 'spell or grammar checked by me.' I've no idea what that was about. What you 'told me about' on this thread, had little or nothing to do with the topic. I wasn't being snarky, just a bit out of joint at the lack of response.

No harm, no foul.

Kathianne

11-25-2012, 09:46 PM

Bob has yet to respond to my response of his 'request' of a response. LOL!

DragonStryk72

11-26-2012, 11:14 AM

Kathianne. If I appeared to go AROUND them. I can't deny that. You see. Offering my opinion here on this subject is just that. An opinion. I have no real qualifications to present since I am not related to, nor have I ever been a member of the Teaching profession.
But. Like every other American. I do feel I have the right to express myself, as I like on topics like this.

I fully understand my opinions offered here, may not meet the approval of those who always demand EXACTING grammar usage, vocabulary, and spelling. But. I can say. What you see from me is what you get, as the product of the American public school system where the importance of Arithmetic, History, English, Geography, and Science was MANDATORY to graduate.
Unlike today...wondering whether my education would get me a passing grade for MUTUAL ADMIRATION of little boys who wish they were Little Girls.
That, among other things. Is where I draw the line, and see Educational excellence going down the drain.

Um, dude, could you stop violently agreeing with Kathianne? If you'd read what we were writing, you'd see that our opinions are not that far off from your own, and you're almost trying to find a way in which to argue, but we're on the same side here.

In fact, on of the first points I addressed was the need to decrease the power of the union to such point that the teachers who are not competent to their jobs can actually be fired. This isn't about your grammar, it's you fighting us to agree with us that we find baffling. It's like a kid fighting cause he wants ice cream when you're to hand him a Good Humor bar.

As to the veracity of your opinion, you have every right to discuss them, seeing as how you've seen the school system from the eyes of a father, and once, as a student. We're not gainsaying you, we're just baffled on the point of the aggressive agreement.

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 01:05 PM

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/506356/qa-with-salman-khan/

Q&A with Salman Khan An amateur teacher who rocketed to fame on the Internet tells us how he’ll take his free video tutorials to the next level.

By Antonio Regalado (http://www.technologyreview.com/contributor/antonio-regalado/) on November 7, 2012

View full report (http://www.technologyreview.com/businessreport/digital-education/)

I think that if one bothers to read this interesting piece, they will recognize what I wrote regarding use for younger students, high school students, and yes, even college aged was pretty close to the mark.

Youngest mention: 12 year old cousin, that started the project. One math class.
High school: Engaging students frustrated with either understanding, preparation, or bored.
College: Classes that can be 'credited' for small profit. The nature of most sciences and math most readily fit this criteria from online education.

The 'liberal arts' already have some versions of 'low cost credits' through workshops and summer classes, such as I completed for Center for Civic Education. When I applied and was accepted, I received room & board: 9 weeks total. $3000K total in stipend, and about $800 in books-for myself, not the school. I used them in school, but they are mine to take.

4 graduate credits, the total cost: $700.

aboutime

11-26-2012, 01:18 PM

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 01:23 PM

Since I have admitted several times. I feel no qualifications to speak knowledgeably about this topic. I apologize to anyone who is more knowledgeable, and tells us so, while reminding me I did not get the point, or address the text of what was written.
So. I am now throwing my hands in the air....feeling unable to PLEASE any of you for any reason. If that is what your intent was. You won.

Now. I will post something I just found, relative to what I responded to earlier.

It is a Link that should interest many of you. Or, make you angry.

In either case. If you disagree with how I respond. So be it.

This is the link: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/25/15430647-cheating-scandal-feds-say-teachers-hired-stand-in-to-take-their-certification-tests?lite

Those teachers are a disgrace, did you expect someone to disagree? So are those that change students standardized test responses, to make themselves and/or the school look better. All should be prosecuted.

What any of that has to do with using Khan or something like it to replace or supplement lower education in particular? Got me.

aboutime

11-26-2012, 01:33 PM

Those teachers are a disgrace, did you expect someone to disagree? So are those that change students standardized test responses, to make themselves and/or the school look better. All should be prosecuted.

What any of that has to do with using Khan or something like it to replace or supplement lower education in particular? Got me.

Kathianne. How many times must I repeat to you. I have no professional knowledge about this topic. And therefore. I cannot offer the kind of answers you are looking for, but feel a need to belittle me for some reason. To make WHAT POINT?

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 01:41 PM

Kathianne. How many times must I repeat to you. I have no professional knowledge about this topic. And therefore. I cannot offer the kind of answers you are looking for, but feel a need to belittle me for some reason. To make WHAT POINT?

About time, I have not belittled you at all, I don't know why you keep repeating that.

Here's my question to you; 'Why do you persist in saying 'I have no professional...' and then participate in this thread? No one claimed one must have 'credentials' for any participation in any thread. However, when one comes in a just blathers without addressing the topic under discussion, when there are others that are, I wonder, 'Why are you doing so?'

aboutime

11-26-2012, 01:55 PM

About time, I have not belittled you at all, I don't know why you keep repeating that.

Here's my question to you; 'Why do you persist in saying 'I have no professional...' and then participate in this thread? No one claimed one must have 'credentials' for any participation in any thread. However, when one comes in a just blathers without addressing the topic under discussion, when there are others that are, I wonder, 'Why are you doing so?'

Kathianne. Last time I checked with jimnyc. This is a PUBLIC forum on the Internet. I have every right to participate in this, and any other thread I want, or like.
Because you, or others can't agree with my OPINIONS doesn't make my unqualified to join in here.

As for your Hypocrisy...telling me you have not belittled me. What would you call it if I said YOU WERE BLATHERED WITHOUT ADDRESSING the topic?

Until new rules appear here that specifically tell members...THEY MAY NOT join in ANY thread. I will continue to do so. You, on the other hand. Do have the option to AVOID, or IGNORE my posts.

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 01:58 PM

Kathianne. Last time I checked with jimnyc. This is a PUBLIC forum on the Internet. I have every right to participate in this, and any other thread I want, or like.
Because you, or others can't agree with my OPINIONS doesn't make my unqualified to join in here.

As for your Hypocrisy...telling me you have not belittled me. What would you call it if I said YOU WERE BLATHERED WITHOUT ADDRESSING the topic?

Until new rules appear here that specifically tell members...THEY MAY NOT join in ANY thread. I will continue to do so. You, on the other hand. Do have the option to AVOID, or IGNORE my posts.

I really don't know what your problem is, but get over it. I've claimed none of the things you are claiming. Look up, blather. Look up, topic. That was an observation of your foray into this thread.

OTOH, fine, you win! I will take a break from replying to your posts.

aboutime

11-26-2012, 02:08 PM

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/25/15430647-cheating-scandal-feds-say-teachers-hired-stand-in-to-take-their-certification-tests?lite

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 02:11 PM

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 04:26 PM

I thought I'd go through some old threads and see if I could find some of my references to online education and applicability:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?33684-More-Higher-Ed-Outlets-Should-Follow-MIT&highlight=khan+academy

Within that thread, look at #8, onward in particular.

I thought there were older ones, but if so I can't refine the search enough to not have to read through many old posts.

Anyways, sorry Robert who started this thread, has not elected to further DS's discussion.

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 07:56 PM

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 08:00 PM

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 08:03 PM

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 08:06 PM

I really don't know what your problem is, but get over it. I've claimed none of the things you are claiming. Look up, blather. Look up, topic. That was an observation of your foray into this thread.

OTOH, fine, you win! I will take a break from replying to your posts.

I feel bad that I seemed to have stepped on AT's toes, never meant to. So I've responded to several of his posts in this thread. I hope they provide some clarity of my intentions at the time.

gabosaurus

11-26-2012, 08:19 PM

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 08:24 PM

Or perhaps your answers rose above his level of comprehension and he gave up. :rolleyes:

I don't think so. Indeed I think there's something else going on, like 'degrees' and such, nonsense as for ability to post meaningfully.

Anyone can post about education, we've all been students. Most have been parents and have or had kids in schools. One way or another, we've all paid for education.

My problem with his posts were they weren't germane to the discussion, though had at least a tad to do with education discussion in general. Just needed a separate thread.

aboutime

11-26-2012, 09:27 PM

I feel bad that I seemed to have stepped on AT's toes, never meant to. So I've responded to several of his posts in this thread. I hope they provide some clarity of my intentions at the time.

Kathianne. I didn't see it that way at all. Guess I'm just not that intelligent about the topic, and unable to honestly answer your questions the way you think I should.
I admit, as before. Not having the qualifications to speak as you seem to do so well.
I merely offered my opinion. And that's it.

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 09:30 PM

Kathianne. I didn't see it that way at all. Guess I'm just not that intelligent about the topic, and unable to honestly answer your questions the way you think I should.
I admit, as before. Not having the qualifications to speak as you seem to do so well.
I merely offered my opinion. And that's it.

I hadn't any questions regarding the topic. I had no preconceived ideas of what you should post, obviously. What you did post, weren't on topic.

The 'qualifications' were never an issue.

Your opinion in this case, were not related to discussion. Sorry. We're back to square 1.

Still no response from Robert. Make that, Bob.

aboutime

11-26-2012, 09:40 PM

I hadn't any questions regarding the topic. I had no preconceived ideas of what you should post, obviously. What you did post, weren't on topic.

The 'qualifications' were never an issue.

Your opinion in this case, were not related to discussion. Sorry. We're back to square 1.

Still no response from Robert. Make that, Bob.

Kathianne. A simple "Okay" would have been enough. Why continue?

DragonStryk72

11-26-2012, 09:42 PM

Kathianne. A simple "Okay" would have been enough. Why continue?

Again, we're agreeing with you, so why are you on the attack?

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 09:44 PM

Again, we're agreeing with you, so why are you on the attack?

You responded, before I saw AT's post. I'm cool, if he is.

I'm still awaiting Robert, Bob, at this point, with bated breath. :rolleyes:

Robert A Whit

11-26-2012, 09:44 PM

This one ranks as one of the strangest replies I have got here.

First my statement. Notice that i got accused of some shitty things.

Read my actual words. Then try to make sense out of the reply at the bottom.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=594800#post594800)
Kahn is no kneejerk solution.

Ask yourself this.

Would you pay 100 dollars for 20 dollars work?

The math does not work.

Kahn has a system that costs students nothing.

Visit the site. Evaluate it for yourself. Then imagine the system is designed with all the courses needed to get into a university.

Khan has done a remarkable job given he charges students nothing.

Bear in mind that for each teacher, there are a large number who don't teach, collecting paychecks for nothing more than administration.

Most of the money does not end up in the teachers accounts.

We must focus the money for the best good.
Read What I actually wrote. I made no mention of Khan, did not discuss it in any way shape or form. Please stop jumping on people for somewhat agreeing with you, but not to the extent you'd like. Simply because I didn't parrot you, doesn't mean I don't see good points. However, jumping on me? Best way to get me to disagree with you out of spite.

aboutime

11-26-2012, 09:45 PM

Again, we're agreeing with you, so why are you on the attack?

What are you talking about? Attack? Where?

Let's all agree to just let it go. End it here. Nothing for anyone to gain, or lose.

Maybe I'm not drinking the same things you are.

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 09:47 PM

What are you talking about? Attack? Where?

Let's all agree to just let it go. End it here. Nothing for anyone to gain, or lose.

Maybe I'm not drinking the same things you are.

At this point, I'm going to agree. Seems the wrong folks are fighting. I do wish Bob would join the convo he began.

aboutime

11-26-2012, 09:49 PM

At this point, I'm going to agree. Seems the wrong folks are fighting. I do wish Bob would join the convo he began.

Kathianne, and Dragon. If this will help. I apologize. Never intended for any of this to become an argument. I also agree. The wrong folks are fighting about stuff....for no reason.

Hope that ends it here.

DragonStryk72

11-26-2012, 09:55 PM

This one ranks as one of the strangest replies I have got here.

First my statement. Notice that i got accused of some shitty things.

Read my actual words. Then try to make sense out of the reply at the bottom.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=594800#post594800)
Kahn is no kneejerk solution.

Read What I actually wrote. I made no mention of Khan, did not discuss it in any way shape or form. Please stop jumping on people for somewhat agreeing with you, but not to the extent you'd like. Simply because I didn't parrot you, doesn't mean I don't see good points. However, jumping on me? Best way to get me to disagree with you out of spite.

Yup, made it. I never said Kahn was a kneejerk solution, which is what you tried to say after my comment that kneejerk solutions weren't the answer.

The kneejerk is just tossing teachers out entirely, as though they have no use. Even Khan himself stated that teachers were used in his examples, in the video on the Khan Academy website. The Khan Academy is another tool, a great one, but nothing without someone to wield it. The Khan Academy works better with teachers in the classroom to answer questions not covered in the video, or take make corrections as need based on their individual students.

So, basically, either Khan was right, and you're wrong, or Khan was wrong.... which lampoons your argument in the first place.

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 10:04 PM

Yup, made it. I never said Kahn was a kneejerk solution, which is what you tried to say after my comment that kneejerk solutions weren't the answer.

The kneejerk is just tossing teachers out entirely, as though they have no use. Even Khan himself stated that teachers were used in his examples, in the video on the Khan Academy website. The Khan Academy is another tool, a great one, but nothing without someone to wield it. The Khan Academy works better with teachers in the classroom to answer questions not covered in the video, or take make corrections as need based on their individual students.

So, basically, either Khan was right, and you're wrong, or Khan was wrong.... which lampoons your argument in the first place.

My take is the Bob saw or read something he thought was novel and a great idea. He was right, but took it a step too far. Getting rid of teachers wasn't implied by khan or any online programs. He was also overreaching with the idea of online being a panacea to all education needs, which I think he realized with the question about grade schoolers sitting at a computer for 7 hours, with breaks for lunch/recess. Even then and in the room, supervision would be needed, unless all would be homeschooled. Unrealistic from get go.

Robert A Whit

11-26-2012, 10:05 PM

So, you're ignorant and wished to disparage the ignorant? Not a good plan of attack.

I should think you would have wanted to leave a good impression.

Oh well.

I read and read my post to try to find out the nature of your angst.

I can't help you.

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 10:06 PM

Robert A Whit

11-26-2012, 10:25 PM

My take is the Bob saw or read something he thought was novel and a great idea. He was right, but took it a step too far. Getting rid of teachers wasn't implied by khan or any online programs. He was also overreaching with the idea of online being a panacea to all education needs, which I think he realized with the question about grade schoolers sitting at a computer for 7 hours, with breaks for lunch/recess. Even then and in the room, supervision would be needed, unless all would be homeschooled. Unrealistic from get go.

My actual aim is for the best of the children. The public should examine the sums spent on educating their children and apply common sense and economics to what goes on.

I first heard of Kahn years ago. I believe in using electronics.

While getting of teachers is not encouraged by Khan, one way to make sure things get discussed is to toss out ideas out of the box.

Clearly, kids sitting staring at the teacher is not too different than staring at the computer. I know that both of my grandsons really got a lot out of using the computer.

Teachers are often not much more than babysitters.

Teachers also complain that they have too many kids per class.

But once a person puts their energy into helping the kids, all sorts of new ideas will be tossed in.

I am hoping to read a decent idea to help kids posted here. I presumed some were experts.

waiting .........tap tap tap

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 10:34 PM

My actual aim is for the best of the children. The public should examine the sums spent on educating their children and apply common sense and economics to what goes on.

I first heard of Kahn years ago. I believe in using electronics.

While getting of teachers is not encouraged by Khan, one way to make sure things get discussed is to toss out ideas out of the box.

Clearly, kids sitting staring at the teacher is not too different than staring at the computer. I know that both of my grandsons really got a lot out of using the computer.

Teachers are often not much more than babysitters.

Teachers also complain that they have too many kids per class.

But once a person puts their energy into helping the kids, all sorts of new ideas will be tossed in.

I am hoping to read a decent idea to help kids posted here. I presumed some were experts.

waiting .........tap tap tap

I do hear what you are trying to put forward. Then again, your own reality should give you pause.

When in your experience, grade school, jr high, high school, college, did you stare at teacher in lecture mode? If so, poor student. I know I questioned, constantly. Can't do that with a video.

At the same time, as posted earlier, I see real validity in this format and not just in math and science. No, there's a place for direct instruction and mastery of subject in university level courses. Including some liberal arts. Shock of shockers.

It should be optional in my opinion, but also lower cost. Wouldn't be for a major candidate, but certainly should be available for required course. American Hist 100 and 101; Western Civ 100 and 101. Same with Psych, Sociology, Pol Sci.

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 10:36 PM

My actual aim is for the best of the children. The public should examine the sums spent on educating their children and apply common sense and economics to what goes on.

I first heard of Kahn years ago. I believe in using electronics.

While getting of teachers is not encouraged by Khan, one way to make sure things get discussed is to toss out ideas out of the box.

Clearly, kids sitting staring at the teacher is not too different than staring at the computer. I know that both of my grandsons really got a lot out of using the computer.

Teachers are often not much more than babysitters.

Teachers also complain that they have too many kids per class.

But once a person puts their energy into helping the kids, all sorts of new ideas will be tossed in.

I am hoping to read a decent idea to help kids posted here. I presumed some were experts.

waiting .........tap tap tap

I do hear what you are trying to put forward. Then again, your own reality should give you pause.

When in your experience, grade school, jr high, high school, college, did you stare at teacher in lecture mode? If so, poor student. I know I questioned, constantly. Can't do that with a video.

Do you really believe that 4-10 year olds should be getting direct instruction and inputting data via computer 6-7 hours a day?

At the same time, as posted earlier, I see real validity in this format and not just in math and science. No, there's a place for direct instruction and mastery of subject in university level courses. Including some liberal arts. Shock of shockers.

It should be optional in my opinion, but also lower cost. Wouldn't be for a major candidate, but certainly should be available for required course. American Hist 100 and 101; Western Civ 100 and 101. Same with Psych, Sociology, Pol Sci.

aboutime

11-26-2012, 10:40 PM

I do hear what you are trying to put forward. Then again, your own reality should give you pause.

When in your experience, grade school, jr high, high school, college, did you stare at teacher in lecture mode? If so, poor student. I know I questioned, constantly. Can't do that with a video.

Do you really believe that 4-10 year olds should be getting direct instruction and inputting data via computer 6-7 hours a day?

At the same time, as posted earlier, I see real validity in this format and not just in math and science. No, there's a place for direct instruction and mastery of subject in university level courses. Including some liberal arts. Shock of shockers.

It should be optional in my opinion, but also lower cost. Wouldn't be for a major candidate, but certainly should be available for required course. American Hist 100 and 101; Western Civ 100 and 101. Same with Psych, Sociology, Pol Sci.

Kathianne. If I may?

Though it has been many, many decades since I attended school, prior to my years in the navy. There has never been a replacement, any man can create...not even Kahn, that replaces a Human being called a teacher...when a question can be answered instantly. Rather than on a cue, or if it might be forgotten with a Computer screen.
In other words. Our best students come from the best schools where the best teachers are there to TEACH.

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 10:45 PM

Kathianne. If I may?

Though it has been many, many decades since I attended school, prior to my years in the navy. There has never been a replacement, any man can create...not even Kahn, that replaces a Human being called a teacher...when a question can be answered instantly. Rather than on a cue, or if it might be forgotten with a Computer screen.
In other words. Our best students come from the best schools where the best teachers are there to TEACH.

I thank you for that, but truth is, it really depends on the student, the subject, and the lesson. I believe that those that wish to work hard and succeed should be able to.

Here's a losing example, that breaks my heart:

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2012/11/26/the-perverse-consequences-of-our-higher-ed-policy/

November 26, 2012 Eating the Poor: The College Debt Trap It’s pretty clear that federal housing policy not only helped inflate the housing bubble, but wrecked the prospects of exactly the low income, marginal, first time home buyers well intentioned people were trying to help. The same thing seems to be happening in the world of higher ed: low income students who are struggling in higher ed are getting the royal shaft as the result of poorly thought through policies intended to help them.

The Wall Street Journal recently ran a good piece (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324595904578117400943472068.html?m od=e2tw) that illustrates how things have gone wrong. In a rush to expand opportunities for people to go to college and get a foothold in the middle class, we have inadvertently created a large class of citizens who are struggling with crushing debt that they have little hope of paying off.

Economists say the U.S. needs more college graduates in order to remain competitive. But expanding the pool of graduates means reaching out to low-income families, immigrants, minorities and children whose parents didn’t earn degrees. Efforts to help such students attend college have often outpaced efforts to make sure they graduate.

The student loan system’s biggest victims are exactly the people policy makers most want to help: marginal students whose chances of finishing are not great. There are at least three perverse consequences to our policies:

1. Federal support and available loans push up the costs of higher ed. Free money distorts the market in a big way.

2. Policy aimed at making college degrees more common increases the disadvantage for those who do not have or are unable to earn these degrees, and it adds to the pressure on everyone to at least give college a try.

3. When students fail at college, student loans become a permanent ball and chain for workers stuck at the low end of the labor market.

Twice in a row, well intentioned federal policies aimed at helping low income people make it into the middle class have spectacularly backfired and imposed ruinous losses on exactly the people in our society who can least afford them. The answer isn’t to stop thinking about how to help low income people do better in life, but it’s clear that some of our basic policy assumptions need to be rethought.

We need to find a better way.

Robert A Whit

11-26-2012, 10:49 PM

Yup, made it. I never said Kahn was a kneejerk solution, which is what you tried to say after my comment that kneejerk solutions weren't the answer.

The kneejerk is just tossing teachers out entirely, as though they have no use. Even Khan himself stated that teachers were used in his examples, in the video on the Khan Academy website. The Khan Academy is another tool, a great one, but nothing without someone to wield it. The Khan Academy works better with teachers in the classroom to answer questions not covered in the video, or take make corrections as need based on their individual students.

So, basically, either Khan was right, and you're wrong, or Khan was wrong.... which lampoons your argument in the first place.

Talk about reading some shit into my reply....

No, I never claimed you said anything. I deny putting that on your back.

While tossing out teachers may seem harsh to you, it is but one idea.

I said more on another post so don't plan to repeat that.

But I want my reasoning to be vetted.

I did explain, I believe, that if one spends 100 dollars to educate the children, that maybe a third of that gets to the actual teaching. Maybe I should have said to keep teachers but get rid of those above the teachers.

Still, if you have a class size of say 25, the cost per class per year is far too high.

People have long talked about improving education.

Kahn has a great idea. Kids in the comfort of their homes can dwell on the computer. Careful parents can of course put more into this since it is their child.

I advise the shitty posters stop trying to make this about me and stick instead to the ideas.

It is much harder to attack ideas than posters. Maybe that is why they attack posters.

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 10:52 PM

Talk about reading some shit into my reply....

No, I never claimed you said anything. I deny putting that on your back.

While tossing out teachers may seem harsh to you, it is but one idea.

I said more on another post so don't plan to repeat that.

But I want my reasoning to be vetted.

I did explain, I believe, that if one spends 100 dollars to educate the children, that maybe a third of that gets to the actual teaching. Maybe I should have said to keep teachers but get rid of those above the teachers.

Still, if you have a class size of say 25, the cost per class per year is far too high.

People have long talked about improving education.

Kahn has a great idea. Kids in the comfort of their homes can dwell on the computer. Careful parents can of course put more into this since it is their child.

I advise the shitty posters stop trying to make this about me and stick instead to the ideas.

It is much harder to attack ideas than posters. Maybe that is why they attack posters.

As I assume I'm a 'shitty poster' I just want to be clear by the highlighted, you are advocating all children be at home for schooling.

Robert A Whit

11-26-2012, 11:23 PM

It is my fault but there is in some minds the false idea I am anti teacher.

I did a poor job explainng it enough. But I hoped that my comments could turn into conversation rather than hard feelings.

Teachers have value.

I never intended to argue that they have no value.

Kathianne

11-26-2012, 11:41 PM

Robert A Whit

11-26-2012, 11:58 PM

Some of the attacks against me made me decide to post the actual comments and go through them.

===============

This is another topic that was inspired by Book TV on Cspan.

Kahn?

Name ring a bell?

This respected teacher says he will not start a school since it is not the best format for learning.

That rules out any notion I am anti teacher.

Kahn has an online academy where many topics are taught.

I got to thinking.

Why not lay off teachers?

Just a question.

Kahn, on Book TV spoke of the small sum of your money that ends up in the class room.

Nobody wanted to deal with this major problem.

Teachers pay is often used as political tennis.

Bat the ball back and forth.

Kahn calls the education system, the PRUSSIAN model.

It stifles being educated.

I suggest before you argue this point, you owe it to yourself to get to the CSPAN site and listen to what he says.

I also urge you all to go visit Kahns site and tell kids they can get superior education on his site. And it is free. Kahn makes all of this available for FREE.

So, since he can educate the people FOR FREE,

Why not lay off teachers?

Again, just a question. I have been attacked for merely asking a question.

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 12:03 AM

Bob, I'm going to take a break of quoting you. Truth is, in any rendition, Khan type education at lower grade levels is supplementary. At middle school, may be supplemental or remedial. Same with high school, but also a resource for gifted. In college, those that need to be brought up to par, likely to find something better.

Turn over all education from k-12 to this? I don't think so.

Thank you.

You seem obsessed over teachers. I am trying to get better education to kids and save at least two thirds the cost.

Do you think all that overhead is needed?

I plan to check the Khan results to see if you are correct.

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 12:42 AM

I do hear what you are trying to put forward. Then again, your own reality should give you pause.

When in your experience, grade school, jr high, high school, college, did you stare at teacher in lecture mode? If so, poor student. I know I questioned, constantly. Can't do that with a video.

At the same time, as posted earlier, I see real validity in this format and not just in math and science. No, there's a place for direct instruction and mastery of subject in university level courses. Including some liberal arts. Shock of shockers.

It should be optional in my opinion, but also lower cost. Wouldn't be for a major candidate, but certainly should be available for required course. American Hist 100 and 101; Western Civ 100 and 101. Same with Psych, Sociology, Pol Sci.

I can't recall any class where the teacher wanted or needed 30 kids to batter her with questions. Maybe I went to the wrong schools.

Since you tied up the teacher, how on earth could she teach?

In college we had one male student that tried to tie up the teacher constantly asking quest6ions. Made it very hard on the teacher to teach the course.

Funny thing too is the male student that battered the teacher in Calculus also did not comprehend why I read two college textbooks on calculus.

I have to review the Khan videos with the aim of improving them.

Maybe they are at the top of the game.

I plan to put a lot of thought trying to recall any of my teachers who put up with a class that chattered at her or him to ask questions.

Bear in mind though that when I went to school, the teachers were top notch and had many years of experience. They knew how to teach.

avatar4321

11-27-2012, 12:53 AM

Kathianne

11-27-2012, 04:34 AM

Thank you.

You seem obsessed over teachers. I am trying to get better education to kids and save at least two thirds the cost.

Do you think all that overhead is needed?

I plan to check the Khan results to see if you are correct.

Actually you seem obsessed over others perceptions of your posts.

In fact, I stated over and over some of the issues facing the children, not so much the teachers. You are the one saying teachers shouldn't be there, at all.

Indeed, I brought out the fact, which again you just ignore, that the students need supervision. Are they all to be home schooled with their computers or in some brick and mortar facility?

From what age do you have them online all day? Where are programs beyond math and physical sciences?

red states rule

11-27-2012, 04:36 AM

fj1200

11-27-2012, 10:19 AM

Pardon me for skipping to the end:

Better educate kids; break the government public education monopoly.

Time To End The Monopoly In Education (http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/time-end-monopoly-education)
The latest audited enrollment count for the district is 44,681, putting per-pupil spending in the nation's capital at about $29,000. Meanwhile, fewer than half of the students who enter the ninth grade in D.C. go on to graduate four years later.To put that profligacy in perspective, the private schools serving D.C.'s 1,700 voucher students charge an average tuition of $6,600, according to a recent Education Department. After three years in the program, voucher students read more than two school years ahead of a randomized control group of their public school peers.
That is, the voucher program yields substantially better results at less than one-quarter the cost.

Milton Friedman on Busting the School Monopoly (http://www.edchoice.org/The-Friedmans/The-Friedmans-on-School-Choice/Milton-Friedman-on-Busting-the-School-Monopoly.aspx)
The situation is wholly different with a socialist enterprise like the public school system, or, for that matter, a private monopoly. The true customers of the public schools—parents and children—have come to exercise less and less influence over the schools as the schools have become more and more centralized and bureaucratic. When school districts were numerous and small, parents could exercise considerable influence. A superintendent or principal who misjudged the “merit” of teachers—in the eyes of consumers—would not have remained in these positions for long.

Education: Too Important for a Government Monopoly (http://www.creators.com/opinion/john-stossel/education-too-important-for-a-government-monopoly.html)
The government-school establishment has said the same thing for decades: Education is too important to leave to the competitive market. If we really want to help our kids, we must focus more resources on the government schools.
But despite this mantra, the focus is on something other than the kids.

etc.

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 01:24 PM

Lay off teachers? I can't agree there. We should all be educating one another to one degree or another. So we should all be teachers. There will always be a need to educate our young. But our current system is seriously flawed.

I would love to see us get our young educated and not simply get them diplomas for doing largely nothing. It's a disservice to them and to us.

I did not say to lay them off.

I asked a very simple question.

Why even bring that idea up some might ask?

Well, the sucking sound you hear is the money going into education yet not substantially improving education.

Not in all areas mind you.

I believe some schools do very well.

Los Gatos High school has a very good program. But the students are from well off families.

A down year to those people means they only earned $150,000 and the homes are so expensive that the schools get lots of money. They have the highest motivated kids, parents and teachers who are well paid.

But, can those kids get more bang for the buck.

We should take advantage of modern tools.

I asked about teachers realizing that with no teachers, the corrupt system called education collapses.

Teachers would always have work. Parents would have the responsibility to educate the kids and of course parents would hire teachers.

Schools can simply pass the students rather than failing them, causing schools a lot less trouble and they get rid of poor students that much sooner.

Kathianne

11-27-2012, 01:33 PM

I did not say to lay them off.

I asked a very simple question.

Why even bring that idea up some might ask?

Well, the sucking sound you hear is the money going into education yet not substantially improving education.

Not in all areas mind you.

I believe some schools do very well.

Los Gatos High school has a very good program. But the students are from well off families.

A down year to those people means they only earned $150,000 and the homes are so expensive that the schools get lots of money. They have the highest motivated kids, parents and teachers who are well paid.

But, can those kids get more bang for the buck.

We should take advantage of modern tools.

I asked about teachers realizing that with no teachers, the corrupt system called education collapses.

Teachers would always have work. Parents would have the responsibility to educate the kids and of course parents would hire teachers.

Schools can simply pass the students rather than failing them, causing schools a lot less trouble and they get rid of poor students that much sooner.

I'm trying to follow your reasoning here. Are you saying that all kids should be home schooled, but the parents should hire teachers personally? I may be misunderstanding.

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 01:40 PM

In fact, I stated over and over some of the issues facing the children, not so much the teachers. You are the one saying teachers shouldn't be there, at all.

Indeed, I brought out the fact, which again you just ignore, that the students need supervision. Are they all to be home schooled with their computers or in some brick and mortar facility?

From what age do you have them online all day? Where are programs beyond math and physical sciences?

First, I reviewed my posts. I don't recall ever stating to get rid of anybody.

I did ask a question that got spun so fast I was almost instantly put on defense.
But let's stick for a second to the issues you are in wonder of.
As to your claim that you stated over and over issues faceing the children, I can't say I saw you do that.

My post to spartk this had much more than asking the question about teachers that I asked.

I never realized that asking a question means I have told you my stand. I wanted somebody to explain to me why teaching has so many detractors as to outcomes that some want to solve this by paying more money to teachers while others like me wonder if there is now a better way to educate.

I see the day when kids won't be sitting in classes up to a point.

My daughter home schooled her kids and they learned a lot. To the point that when she put them into public schools, they were already outstanding students. My daughter was the teacher.

Some parents have kids skipping public schools then enrolling at places like Harvard. Something worked for them and their kids.

And the taxpayer saved a lot of money. Or could have done properly.

You stated kids need supervision and my reply to that is you see teachers as babysitters.

While that is true, tying up valuable time that could be applied to kids wanting to learn, should that be the purpose of schools?

Highly motivated parents will generally have highly motivated kids in school. We can probably think of some exceptions.

Here is what puzzles me most.

You act as if I stated to get rid of teachers.

I asked a question. Some of you could simply say no.

Those who said yes might want to explain why.

My reason for the question was the vast cost.

It is terrible that to get a dollar in actual use to the student, 3 or more dollars has to be consumed.

Teaching is a noble job. So is being a parent.

I can't imagine why with modern tools, such as the computer, some new system can't come forth.

For my question I got slammed.

Explain that to me.

Kathianne

11-27-2012, 01:51 PM

First, I reviewed my posts. I don't recall ever stating to get rid of anybody.

I did ask a question that got spun so fast I was almost instantly put on defense.
But let's stick for a second to the issues you are in wonder of.
As to your claim that you stated over and over issues faceing the children, I can't say I saw you do that.

My post to spartk this had much more than asking the question about teachers that I asked.

I never realized that asking a question means I have told you my stand. I wanted somebody to explain to me why teaching has so many detractors as to outcomes that some want to solve this by paying more money to teachers while others like me wonder if there is now a better way to educate.

I see the day when kids won't be sitting in classes up to a point.

My daughter home schooled her kids and they learned a lot. To the point that when she put them into public schools, they were already outstanding students. My daughter was the teacher.

Some parents have kids skipping public schools then enrolling at places like Harvard. Something worked for them and their kids.

And the taxpayer saved a lot of money. Or could have done properly.

You stated kids need supervision and my reply to that is you see teachers as babysitters.

While that is true, tying up valuable time that could be applied to kids wanting to learn, should that be the purpose of schools?

Highly motivated parents will generally have highly motivated kids in school. We can probably think of some exceptions.

Here is what puzzles me most.

You act as if I stated to get rid of teachers.

I asked a question. Some of you could simply say no.

Those who said yes might want to explain why.

My reason for the question was the vast cost.

It is terrible that to get a dollar in actual use to the student, 3 or more dollars has to be consumed.

Teaching is a noble job. So is being a parent.

I can't imagine why with modern tools, such as the computer, some new system can't come forth.

For my question I got slammed.

Explain that to me.

You write something, others respond. That's how things work. It's not about you, Bob.

I don't disagree at all with home schooling, as you noted though, 'very motivated' parents do so. Are you willing to have all others not be educated at all?

The same parents that probably could do a very good job at home schooling, like many in my district or the one you personally mentioned in CA. Instead thy choose to pay very high taxes, for very good schools. I would further agree that those schools in particular would still have high achieving students, with much less money. The parents are educated and provide from infancy on up, good parenting and nurturing. The kids enter school for the most part, already reading or at minimum, ready-to-read. The schools not only have high expectations, so do the parents and students.

These kids by 5 have likely been on several family vacations, many out of the country. They may already be speaking two or more languages. They go to the library and programs offered there with regularity. They visit museums, zoos, and other enriching activities. Their parents talk to them and most, not all, have regular chores by the age of 5.

What you see as 'attacks' are really counter points to what was understood. The post above your last, I was asking you for clarification.

Do you want a discussion or even debate of a sort or just looking for a high five, regardless of what we think?

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 01:57 PM

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Kathianne http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=595616#post595616)

You are the one saying teachers shouldn't be there, at all. WRONG

Indeed, I brought out the fact, which again you just ignore, that the students need supervision. Are they all to be home schooled with their computers or in some brick and mortar facility?
WRONG That it was ignored. I asked a question then all hell broke loose.

I seek better ways. I did not take a stand. You know, when somebody asks a question, why does the sudden assuming start? You made an assumption merely because I asked a question and now you have me defending myself over a question.

Since I am trying to add to this rather than assume, I don't plan to do to you what you did to me, ie, act as if you are my adversary and try to put you on the spot.

But suppose my question had been answered properly and so forth, what would be MY vision of how to use computers and the Khan system is a good question.

Khan is out promoting his system. I can think of ways to do this. I think Bill Gates is funding it too. Some experts on this are willing to give it a try.

Khan does not claim to shut down schools. I really had not either. I would love to scare the living crap out of the teaching system so they got off their dead asses and tried harder.

I don't blame teachers. They have zip to do with the administration. Do you realize that teachers unions makes teachers an adversary to local and state government?

That for some odd reason, the tail wags the dog?

If you have 2/3 of the money going to pay for the system, but only 1/3 for classes and not a huge amount of that reaching the teacher, maybe that is why they have unions. Cleasrly by joining a union, teachers think something is really wrong. They fight the system.

Since they fight the system, why bash me for fighting the system?

From what age do you have them online all day? Where are programs beyond math and physical sciences?

Again, it's personal. Turning this to the point I have to defend your thought process makes no sense to me.

I call those strawman arguments. I think you understand the term.

First, I did not say to have kids online all day long. As to where are other programs? Don't you think some experts can solve that?

All this crap over my asking a question. Beats all.

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 02:23 PM

You write something, others respond. That's how things work. It's not about you, Bob.

I don't disagree at all with home schooling, as you noted though, 'very motivated' parents do so. Are you willing to have all others not be educated at all?

The same parents that probably could do a very good job at home schooling, like many in my district or the one you personally mentioned in CA. Instead thy choose to pay very high taxes, for very good schools. I would further agree that those schools in particular would still have high achieving students, with much less money. The parents are educated and provide from infancy on up, good parenting and nurturing. The kids enter school for the most part, already reading or at minimum, ready-to-read. The schools not only have high expectations, so do the parents and students.

These kids by 5 have likely been on several family vacations, many out of the country. They may already be speaking two or more languages. They go to the library and programs offered there with regularity. They visit museums, zoos, and other enriching activities. Their parents talk to them and most, not all, have regular chores by the age of 5.

What you see as 'attacks' are really counter points to what was understood. The post above your last, I was asking you for clarification.

Do you want a discussion or even debate of a sort or just looking for a high five, regardless of what we think?

Responding is how it works?

Well, next time you respond, try by answering the question rather than turning it back on me to put me on the spot.

I asked a question. You responded by pretending I stated some fact. You kicked this off by accusing me of wanting to get rid of teachers.

Now you ask me to defend some other proposition of yours. Your proposition is that a lot of kids won't get educated. I have not proposed kids don't get educated.

In CA, property taxes pay for schools. Matter of fact, each time taxpayers agree to more taxes supposedly for schools, the law reads that those funds can be used for other things.

Parents have agreed this past time to pay higher taxes but if one read that law, they will soon learn the money ends up doing something else.

I recall when Proposition 13 was voted for. I voted for it. I wanted to cut down property taxes. Naturally that cut back on school funds. Schools should not be funded by property taxes. Many of us keep paying for kids we don't know. We pay high property taxes due to how prices rose. Take me at age 74. Why would I pay to have kids educated given I paid over and over when my kids attended schools?

This nation has degraded in regard to taxation and who pays what for what.

When I buy a loaf of bread, some guy that won't eat bread is not paying. I pay for my own bread. When I had car payments, it was for a car I used. Why have you pay for my car payments?

School has to be treated like any other commodity in other words.

I want discussion on this matter. Which is why I asked a question. You acted like I had to defend laying teachers off.

Is that how you want it done to you?

Say you ask a question. Do you want to be put on the defense?

Let me back up a bit.

First, I NEVER stated to get rid of teachers.

I had only asked a question.

Second, I am speaking of this given that in so many ways, parents have already moved to computers. They can learn using their computer. No longer limited to things on some purchased program, but they can seek information by using search engines. Parents can pay bills using the computer. They can make a lot of purchases using the computer.

When will education catch up?

Newspapers are running out of time and look at how many newspapers you subscribe to. I don't subscribe to a paper. It is a waste of money. It produces paper I then must dispose of. I save trees by using my computer. No longer does the paper have tons of ads. I can use craigs list and e bay, etc.

I see the future as more computers. Maybe you see it as less computers and more teachers.

I see the trend as the opposite.

So, debate and discuss. But stop assuming. At least don't assume over my comments. Assume all you want to over other posters comments.

Kathianne

11-27-2012, 02:36 PM

There seems to be a tendency to throw lots out there, but little coherence.

Responding is how it works?

Well, next time you respond, try by answering the question rather than turning it back on me to put me on the spot.

I asked a question. You responded by pretending I stated some fact. You kicked this off by accusing me of wanting to get rid of teachers. The title you chose: Be better educated ,,, lay off teachers. It's at the top of the page. I really don't need your advice, I've been around awhile and for the most part, with little problems. If I feel the need for your help, I'll ask. :thumb:

Now you ask me to defend some other proposition of yours. Your proposition is that a lot of kids won't get educated. I have not proposed kids don't get educated.

In CA, property taxes pay for schools. Matter of fact, each time taxpayers agree to more taxes supposedly for schools, the law reads that those funds can be used for other things.

Parents have agreed this past time to pay higher taxes but if one read that law, they will soon learn the money ends up doing something else. Actually I was asking you, politely I thought, for clarity. It's not forthcoming though.

I recall when Proposition 13 was voted for. I voted for it. I wanted to cut down property taxes. Naturally that cut back on school funds. Schools should not be funded by property taxes. Many of us keep paying for kids we don't know. We pay high property taxes due to how prices rose. Take me at age 74. Why would I pay to have kids educated given I paid over and over when my kids attended schools?

This nation has degraded in regard to taxation and who pays what for what.

When I buy a loaf of bread, some guy that won't eat bread is not paying. I pay for my own bread. When I had car payments, it was for a car I used. Why have you pay for my car payments?

School has to be treated like any other commodity in other words. Okay.

I want discussion on this matter. Which is why I asked a question. You acted like I had to defend laying teachers off.

Is that how you want it done to you?

Say you ask a question. Do you want to be put on the defense? okay, again.

Let me back up a bit.

First, I NEVER stated to get rid of teachers.

I had only asked a question. Again, Be better educated ,,, lay off teachers

Second, I am speaking of this given that in so many ways, parents have already moved to computers. They can learn using their computer. No longer limited to things on some purchased program, but they can seek information by using search engines. Parents can pay bills using the computer. They can make a lot of purchases using the computer.

When will education catch up?

Newspapers are running out of time and look at how many newspapers you subscribe to. I don't subscribe to a paper. It is a waste of money. It produces paper I then must dispose of. I save trees by using my computer. No longer does the paper have tons of ads. I can use craigs list and e bay, etc.

I see the future as more computers. Maybe you see it as less computers and more teachers.

I see the trend as the opposite.

So, debate and discuss. But stop assuming. At least don't assume over my comments. Assume all you want to over other posters comments.

I know that I answered how schools use both computers and other technology to teach and to assess. I don't know what your hissy fit is about, though it seems you take a response and questions that seem to arise by the issues you bring up to be a personal attack.

You stumbled across two things I find of interest: education and Khan Academy. I was wrong to think this would be interesting. I don't come to fight on such issues, but to share and hopefully to come to new understandings or ideas.

Your method of posting is not a discussion, but trying to put the discussion aside for personal feuding. You're not someone that I thought would go that route.

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 02:38 PM

I'm trying to follow your reasoning here. Are you saying that all kids should be home schooled, but the parents should hire teachers personally? I may be misunderstanding.

Not really. I am suggesting that it is possible that at some point all kids will get their primary learning using facilities at home. Could is not should.

What happened when my daughter home schooled her sons is she was handed a computer for her sons. She had to make sure the boys could pass some state test. She had to submit all tests completed to some party approved by the school district or perhaps the state??

It is entirely possible that had she not had to pay high property taxes to pay for schools, she could have used the money to pay some tutors should she need one or more. When she got her boys through school, she would no longer be paying for education of other people's kids.

I am still waiting for you to suggest even one improvement that gets the taxpayer more bang for the buck or some idea to improve education.

Strangly this is only about what i ask about.

Kathianne

11-27-2012, 02:47 PM

Not really. I am suggesting that it is possible that at some point all kids will get their primary learning using facilities at home. Could is not should.

What happened when my daughter home schooled her sons is she was handed a computer for her sons. She had to make sure the boys could pass some state test. She had to submit all tests completed to some party approved by the school district or perhaps the state??

It is entirely possible that had she not had to pay high property taxes to pay for schools, she could have used the money to pay some tutors should she need one or more. When she got her boys through school, she would no longer be paying for education of other people's kids.

I am still waiting for you to suggest even one improvement that gets the taxpayer more bang for the buck or some idea to improve education.

Strangly this is only about what i ask about.

I do know how home schooling works. I do think it's superior to public or private education, when the parent knows how to do so and provides the opportunities for socialization that all kids need.

You took 'supervision' to 'babysitting.' That's not what goes on in classrooms today. Not in computer centers, not in regular classrooms. I'm not going to write a tome on teaching, but I do suggest you might do yourself a favor, since you seem to have a passion and interest in this. Call your local grammar school and volunteer to read in lower grades or help in computer center.

Most schools are thrilled to have a non-relative, especially a male of 'grandfather' age help out. No favoritism by blood, another pair of hands and a different voice. Would take all of an hour or two a week, if you have that time.

Abbey Marie

11-27-2012, 02:50 PM

Pardon me for skipping to the end:

Better educate kids; break the government public education monopoly.

Time To End The Monopoly In Education (http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/time-end-monopoly-education)

Milton Friedman on Busting the School Monopoly (http://www.edchoice.org/The-Friedmans/The-Friedmans-on-School-Choice/Milton-Friedman-on-Busting-the-School-Monopoly.aspx)

Education: Too Important for a Government Monopoly (http://www.creators.com/opinion/john-stossel/education-too-important-for-a-government-monopoly.html)

etc.

Wow, I am completely confused by this thread, so I will just ask one question to fj1200: Given your post, what do you think of Michelle Rhee's working within the system to change the public schools?

I saw a documentary about her "radical" changes in the D. C. schools, and I knew she wouldn't last. She resigned (I am sure under vast pressure to do so) in 2010.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Rhee

Kathianne

11-27-2012, 02:52 PM

Kathianne

11-27-2012, 03:04 PM

Abbey, she was dynamic. That DC let her get away is illustrative of how depraved of leadership that city is.

Abbey, I'm reading the Wiki you put up on her, very interesting. She literally went to teaching from senior year of college via teach for America. First year, very difficult. Assuming she was 21 or 22, understandable.

If there are any 'aspiring teachers' out there, let me recommend you grab a copy of,
<iframe tabindex="-1" src="javascript%3Cstrong%3E%3C/strong%3E:void%28false%29" style="display: none; position: absolute; z-index: 199; opacity: 0; top: 199.333px; left: 307px; width: 465px; height: 149px;" frameborder="0"></iframe><iframe tabindex="-1" src="javascript%3Cstrong%3E%3C/strong%3E:void%28false%29" style="display: none; position: absolute; z-index: 0; opacity: 0;" frameborder="0"></iframe><iframe tabindex="-1" src="javascript%3Cstrong%3E%3C/strong%3E:void%28false%29" style="display: none; position: absolute; z-index: 0; opacity: 0;" frameborder="0"></iframe>
<style type="text/css"></style> <noscript><![endif]> <style type="text/css"></style> <![if gt IE 6]></noscript><header>
</header>
<form method="post" id="handleBuy" name="handleBuy" action="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/handle-buy-box/ref=dp_start-bbf_1_glance" style="margin: 0pt;" autocomplete="off"> <input id="session-id" name="session-id" value="190-9514532-0736805" type="hidden"> <input id="ASIN" name="ASIN" value="0962936022" type="hidden"> <input id="isMerchantExclusive" name="isMerchantExclusive" value="0" type="hidden"> <input id="merchantID" name="merchantID" value="" type="hidden"> <input id="nodeID" name="nodeID" value="283155" type="hidden"> <input id="offerListingID" name="offerListingID" value="" type="hidden"> <input id="sellingCustomerID" name="sellingCustomerID" value="" type="hidden"> <input id="sourceCustomerOrgListID" name="sourceCustomerOrgListID" value="" type="hidden"> <input id="sourceCustomerOrgListItemID" name="sourceCustomerOrgListItemID" value="" type="hidden"> <input id="qid" name="qid" value="" type="hidden"> <input id="sr" name="sr" value="" type="hidden"> <input id="storeID" name="storeID" value="books" type="hidden"> <input id="tagActionCode" name="tagActionCode" value="" type="hidden"> <input id="viewID" name="viewID" value="glance" type="hidden"> <input name="isAddon" id="isAddon" value="0" type="hidden">
<tbody>
<style type="text/css"> #image-block-widget .thumbs-bottom { width: 40px; } </style> http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ui/loadIndicators/loading-large._V192238965_.gif http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61JNX9BGH8L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

best book you'll ever own. "Setting up room", "Seating charts-yes, you want them"; greeting your students from Day 1; so much more!

</tbody>
</form>

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 03:09 PM

I know that I answered how schools use both computers and other technology to teach and to assess. I don't know what your hissy fit is about, though it seems you take a response and questions that seem to arise by the issues you bring up to be a personal attack.

You stumbled across two things I find of interest: education and Khan Academy. I was wrong to think this would be interesting. I don't come to fight on such issues, but to share and hopefully to come to new understandings or ideas.

Your method of posting is not a discussion, but trying to put the discussion aside for personal feuding. You're not someone that I thought would go that route.

I did not think it worthy of my time to defend myself over and over though you deny putting me on the defense. Funny that I saw it happen only to also see you go into denial.

Your method of posting is not a discussion, but trying to put the discussion aside for personal feuding. You're not someone that I thought would go that route.

I must have missed your explanation as to how schools use computers. I still have not read 100 percent of the posts I suspect.

What made you say hissy fit? Show where I used that form of discussion.

You have a knack of trying to turn a discussion into it becoming not about the topic, but about the poster. To wit, you accused ME of a hissy fit. I am not the topic.

It is YOU this and Bob that. All over your comments.

Why?

I stumbled?

Really?

And you assumed that why?

I feel from the tone of your posts that I must defend myself. I must have done wrong in your eyes since you kept this going by focusing only on the title.

All that was is a head line.

I would not have asked if we should get rid of teachers if I had already come to that conclusion.

You were wrong to assume it could be interesting?

Who are you blaming?

I know you plan to deny you blame me since that is an attack.

Why did you assume I wanted to eliminate teachers when you read me ASK the question two times in the same OP?

I am no expert on this.

I have not pretended to be one.

I too am interested in Khans system and so far I have not read you defending it.

Maybe if you did, I missed it.

Here you go again, making this about ME.

Read your own statement.

I can't cut and paste the final remark where once again you put all the blame on who?

Did you take any blame at all?

I find out now you don't pay attention to questions in my OP and rather put 100 percent of your focus on the head line.

I am trying to figure out a way out of this problem with you.

First to clear the air.

I don't post to get into a fight.
Feuding is not my nature.
I don't mind at all trying to stir the creative juices by using a head line that might be like honey to a bear. If that does not get used as the excuse to not look at my actual questions to only focus on the head line.

I have been patient with you. I had expected from you some actual suggestions. I keep reading you focusing on me. As if I became the topic.

Why not simply give what you think it takes to fix this?

Kathianne

11-27-2012, 03:09 PM

Here's the organization she left DC for:

http://www.studentsfirst.org/

Read some posts by her and others:

http://www.studentsfirst.org/blog

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 03:14 PM

Abbey, she was dynamic. That DC let her get away is illustrative of how depraved of leadership that city is.

Yes she was. And I fully agree with your posting of that book you recommend too.
Bear in mind who gave Rhee the trouble.

We have many people fighting to not improve education. I am not one however.

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 03:23 PM

I do know how home schooling works. I do think it's superior to public or private education, when the parent knows how to do so and provides the opportunities for socialization that all kids need.

You took 'supervision' to 'babysitting.' That's not what goes on in classrooms today. Not in computer centers, not in regular classrooms. I'm not going to write a tome on teaching, but I do suggest you might do yourself a favor, since you seem to have a passion and interest in this. Call your local grammar school and volunteer to read in lower grades or help in computer center.

Most schools are thrilled to have a non-relative, especially a male of 'grandfather' age help out. No favoritism by blood, another pair of hands and a different voice. Would take all of an hour or two a week, if you have that time.

Do you mean socialising during recess? Do you want the kids spending their time in class socialising? I remember in my day some of us trying that in class and the teacher was not happy. She would want to read our notes to each other.

My daughers sons got plenty of socialising from kids they knew around the neighborhood.

Suire, kids need to learn social skills.I had not suggested otherwise.

I think you brought up babysitting and I tried to follow your reasoning.

I have volunteered at the food bank. I had not realized schools allow old timers to show up to help teachers.

So, what is your solution to the following problems?

1. Schools consume far too much taxpayer money.
2. Teachers get the short end of the stick since even though a per class school year can cost $300,000, her share is pertty small by contrast. (her is not sexist since men also teach)
3. Money to educate flows as an upside down pyramid. Seems the teacher is the bottom at the V rather than at the top. Seems that too many people make very good livings off not teaching, but making demands on teachers.

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 03:30 PM

Here's the organization she left DC for:

http://www.studentsfirst.org/

Read some posts by her and others:

http://www.studentsfirst.org/blog

Michelle Rhee truly cares.

She fought the system. And in DC, lost that fight.

She asks questions as I ask.

Nobody can fire me for asking my questions.

Read her comments.

Like millions of others, I’ve followed the 2012 presidential campaign and debates with great interest, listening to President Obama and Governor Romney make their arguments for why they deserve to be president. In particular, I’ve tuned in to hear their positions on education, and how they plan to help reform a system that ranks 25th in the world in math, graduates about three-fourths of its high school students, and where four out of five African-American children can’t read on grade level by the end of fourth grade.
With two presidential debates and one vice presidential debate behind us, education has only been brought up a handful of times. Neither Gov. Romney nor President Obama has provided enough details about how they would address the problems in our schools over the next four years. It’s too bad, because, like most Americans, I believe that a robust public education system can help solve so many of America’s problems, including fixing our struggling economy.
Experts agree that the quality of a country’s public education system (and the education level of its citizens) is one of, if not the strongest indicators of future prosperity. But our education system is broken, focused more on the needs of adults and special interests than children. Accountability, informed parents, and wise spending aren’t yet the norm. We need to hear more from both candidates about the challenges we face and how they would try to solve them.
It was disappointing that during the debate on Tuesday, the President had to bring education late in the conversation during a discussion about gun control, because it hadn't previously been touched upon. We cannot ignore the modern tragedy that millions of students don’t have access to the quality public education they both need and deserve.
It is incumbent upon all of us to remind all those running for office this year that we want to see our education system improve, and that they have a key role in making that happen. As Election Day nears, I look forward to hearing more from the candidates on this most urgent topic.

Kathianne

11-27-2012, 03:33 PM

I did not think it worthy of my time to defend myself over and over though you deny putting me on the defense. Funny that I saw it happen only to also see you go into denial.

I must have missed your explanation as to how schools use computers. I still have not read 100 percent of the posts I suspect.

What made you say hissy fit? Show where I used that form of discussion.

You have a knack of trying to turn a discussion into it becoming not about the topic, but about the poster. To wit, you accused ME of a hissy fit. I am not the topic.

It is YOU this and Bob that. All over your comments.

Why?

I stumbled?

Really?

And you assumed that why?

I feel from the tone of your posts that I must defend myself. I must have done wrong in your eyes since you kept this going by focusing only on the title.

All that was is a head line.

I would not have asked if we should get rid of teachers if I had already come to that conclusion.

You were wrong to assume it could be interesting?

Who are you blaming?

I know you plan to deny you blame me since that is an attack.

Why did you assume I wanted to eliminate teachers when you read me ASK the question two times in the same OP?

I am no expert on this.

I have not pretended to be one.

I too am interested in Khans system and so far I have not read you defending it.

Maybe if you did, I missed it.

Here you go again, making this about ME.

Read your own statement.

I can't cut and paste the final remark where once again you put all the blame on who?

Did you take any blame at all?

I find out now you don't pay attention to questions in my OP and rather put 100 percent of your focus on the head line.

I am trying to figure out a way out of this problem with you.

First to clear the air.

I don't post to get into a fight.
Feuding is not my nature.
I don't mind at all trying to stir the creative juices by using a head line that might be like honey to a bear. If that does not get used as the excuse to not look at my actual questions to only focus on the head line.

I have been patient with you. I had expected from you some actual suggestions. I keep reading you focusing on me. As if I became the topic.

Why not simply give what you think it takes to fix this?

Bob, the problem with 'schools' is that the number and make up are myriad. There is not one solution that will fit. Just as there's not one methodology to teaching that works across the board.

Assuming you live in the district you named in one of today's post, regarding CA, we likely share demographics of where we reside. Well educated parents, motivated students, high expectations, close to unlimited resources for both teachers and students. Teachers are highly qualified-won't find them cheating for passing basic credentials. Students by far and away enter the system ready to succeed. Those that have problems, the resources are there, along with the support, to help them. Parents support the schools both financially and regarding expectations.

Now move to a middle to upper class blue collar area. The parents want their kids to do well, but they may have their own issues regarding school. They may not have done well, for one reason or another. Etc., etc. They may support referendums, but they know that college isn't the only answer to getting ahead and they are right. They do want their children to get a diploma, but may not be as supportive or able to ask for help, when they can't help their children at home. This presents huge problems for classroom: high expectations, low communication.

Then there are pockets of true distrust of schools. Maybe on religious issues, maybe on 'respect.' There are some groups that don't think girls in particular, need to be educated beyond reading and writing, yet the law says they are in school until 16. They do not support homework, they want the daughters to help at home. The girls fall behind, supported by parents, disrupt the classroom.

Inner city, poor often have not only non-supportive parents, they are neglected to the degree of malnutrition and lack of necessary clothing and hygiene. Unless and until these basics are met, no teaching happens.

Nutshell and over simplification, but that's the outline of why I don't see computer education working from k-12 in all schools, for all students, for all subjects. Nor do I see all parents being capable of doing the job your daughter did with her children.

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 03:34 PM

Wow, I am completely confused by this thread, so I will just ask one question to fj1200: Given your post, what do you think of Michelle Rhee's working within the system to change the public schools?

I saw a documentary about her "radical" changes in the D. C. schools, and I knew she wouldn't last. She resigned (I am sure under vast pressure to do so) in 2010.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Rhee

We often notice that when a true visionary comes to explain and offer solutions, they get attacked. She was seriously attacked for trying.

I once saw on TV a program that was put on by PBS where a teacher really tried and she ended up losing her job. She took on blacks. She was black but that did not help her cause.

Notice that in DC teachers won super high pay. But that did not fix the problems.

Kathianne

11-27-2012, 03:43 PM

We often notice that when a true visionary comes to explain and offer solutions, they get attacked. She was seriously attacked for trying.

I once saw on TV a program that was put on by PBS where a teacher really tried and she ended up losing her job. She took on blacks. She was black but that did not help her cause.

Notice that in DC teachers won super high pay. But that did not fix the problems.

I agree. Whether the public realizes it or not, there are many teachers that just want to do that. That includes many in NEA, that have to belong, as is the case for public school teachers in IL.

She was looking for fair assessment of teacher performance, by far the most comprehensive and fair to teachers I've seen to this point.

Measure 'achievement' from year-to-year, not just grade level. While this would be crazy in wealthy, educated districts, not so in the lowest districts. What is a 6th grade teacher to do when over 75% of class is reading at 1 or 2nd grade level? The text are thrown out, that's what. Now how to teach the ideas? How to improve reading? How to catch the interest of the students? If at the end of the year, they have gone up to 4th or 5th grade level, that is a superior teacher.

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 03:44 PM

Bob, the problem with 'schools' is that the number and make up are myriad. There is not one solution that will fit. Just as there's not one methodology to teaching that works across the board.

Assuming you live in the district you named in one of today's post, regarding CA, we likely share demographics of where we reside. Well educated parents, motivated students, high expectations, close to unlimited resources for both teachers and students. Teachers are highly qualified-won't find them cheating for passing basic credentials. Students by far and away enter the system ready to succeed. Those that have problems, the resources are there, along with the support, to help them. Parents support the schools both financially and regarding expectations.

Now move to a middle to upper class blue collar area. The parents want their kids to do well, but they may have their own issues regarding school. They may not have done well, for one reason or another. Etc., etc. They may support referendums, but they know that college isn't the only answer to getting ahead and they are right. They do want their children to get a diploma, but may not be as supportive or able to ask for help, when they can't help their children at home. This presents huge problems for classroom: high expectations, low communication.

Then there are pockets of true distrust of schools. Maybe on religious issues, maybe on 'respect.' There are some groups that don't think girls in particular, need to be educated beyond reading and writing, yet the law says they are in school until 16. They do not support homework, they want the daughters to help at home. The girls fall behind, supported by parents, disrupt the classroom.

Inner city, poor often have not only non-supportive parents, they are neglected to the degree of malnutrition and lack of necessary clothing and hygiene. Unless and until these basics are met, no teaching happens.

Nutshell and over simplification, but that's the outline of why I don't see computer education working from k-12 in all schools, for all students, for all subjects. Nor do I see all parents being capable of doing the job your daughter did with her children.

Lawmakers from top to bottom from my vantage point appear to try to use one solution fits all. You did a fine job laying out problems.

I hoped this thread could spark solutions.

Rhee tried. But she got taken down and had to leave.

I accept at face value what you said and believe you are accurate.

My area has so few blacks to drag down scores that one can discount them. We have a few so I am not saying we have none. Same with Mexicans. We have them and they do drag down scores since we have more of them than blacks.

The group that really raises our scores are the Chinese and I suspect also the Indians from India.

My City is known to have decent schools. I don't think they match in outcome some schools around this country.

I plan to check up on De La Salle in Concord, CA to see how those kids perform.

I think though that in that school, the teachers are very good performers.

Kathianne

11-27-2012, 03:53 PM

Lawmakers from top to bottom from my vantage point appear to try to use one solution fits all. You did a fine job laying out problems.

I hoped this thread could spark solutions.

Rhee tried. But she got taken down and had to leave.

I accept at face value what you said and believe you are accurate.

My area has so few blacks to drag down scores that one can discount them. We have a few so I am not saying we have none. Same with Mexicans. We have them and they do drag down scores since we have more of them than blacks.

The group that really raises our scores are the Chinese and I suspect also the Indians from India.

My City is known to have decent schools. I don't think they match in outcome some schools around this country.

I plan to check up on De La Salle in Concord, CA to see how those kids perform.

I think though that in that school, the teachers are very good performers.

I don't think 'race' or 'nationality' are the most likely culprits in high income areas or thinking about it, even in low income areas.

It's 'socio-economic' factors. One can be 'poor' but have high expectations for one's children. These are the parents that will fight tooth and nail to get their kids into the 'magnet schools', even when it means over 3 hours of travel by public transportation everyday. Too often we see the anecdotal stories on how gangs slay these kids.

Then there are parents in wealthy areas, themselves having bachelor degrees or beyond. They expect their children to exceed their expectations, while neglecting them in attention. They may be few, but their children are often highly disturbed.

Two extremes. Schools are charged with dealing with.

I'm not excusing, these types of issues are real and everyday.

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 03:54 PM

I agree. Whether the public realizes it or not, there are many teachers that just want to do that. That includes many in NEA, that have to belong, as is the case for public school teachers in IL.

She was looking for fair assessment of teacher performance, by far the most comprehensive and fair to teachers I've seen to this point.

Measure 'achievement' from year-to-year, not just grade level. While this would be crazy in wealthy, educated districts, not so in the lowest districts. What is a 6th grade teacher to do when over 75% of class is reading at 1 or 2nd grade level? The text are thrown out, that's what. Now how to teach the ideas? How to improve reading? How to catch the interest of the students? If at the end of the year, they have gone up to 4th or 5th grade level, that is a superior teacher.

If you think my OP was intended to attack teachers, you got it wrong.

I happen to agree with what you said above. Since I agree with you, maybe that is not what you wanted since you chided me as if agreeing was somehow wrong to do.

However, I do not wish that statement I just made to detract one bit from your statements.

The black teacher ran into those problems. I think she taught at the 6th or 7th grade level, could have even been the 8th. Maybe she had the same kids for 3 years. I can't recall that.

But parents fought her. She would visit the kids homes to seek help from the parents to keep kids attending class. Parents got into her face and resented her. I was shocked to say the least. She got no help from any parent. Most of the time when she tried to have parent teacher conferences, she endured complaints only.

Well, she taught in NY city. So what would anybody expect?

When I grew up, a kid who started school in NY City would tell us how much better the schools were then. He was not happy with CA schools. But he probably did not go to an all black school.

I went to many schools in Ca.

Do you know when I saw my first black in school?

I must have been a junior in high school.

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 04:11 PM

I don't think 'race' or 'nationality' are the most likely culprits in high income areas or thinking about it, even in low income areas.

It's 'socio-economic' factors. One can be 'poor' but have high expectations for one's children. These are the parents that will fight tooth and nail to get their kids into the 'magnet schools', even when it means over 3 hours of travel by public transportation everyday. Too often we see the anecdotal stories on how gangs slay these kids.

Then there are parents in wealthy areas, themselves having bachelor degrees or beyond. They expect their children to exceed their expectations, while neglecting them in attention. They may be few, but their children are often highly disturbed.

Two extremes. Schools are charged with dealing with.

I'm not excusing, these types of issues are real and everyday.

Race sure gets left in the dust when we see evidence it has a lot to do with bad schools.

I am not clear how black teachers rate in school.

I have to this day never once had a black teacher.

Not in grade school. I never saw blacks in grade school. I never saw Mexicans either till I was in the 6th grade. Those kids were terrible students. I became friends with some mexicans and one was a punk though he was nice to me. To others, he wanted to pick fights. In general,. those who lived in the worst areas seemed to want to cause trouble. Given their life, maybe one can try to rationalize it.

I have in my office a dear friend. Let's call her Lady Z. She holds two masters degrees. She taught special needs students. She quit. She told me it drove her nuts. (one in art and the next in education) (as an aside, she and her husband voted for Romney and her son the lawyer handed her his ballot. He thought he voted for Obama. She put down Romney for him. LOL I don't have the heart to tell him what she did. That is up to her to tell him)

LZ went to college in MA. She and her husband graduated from a university in MA.

She has two sons.

Son J works at the water district on street jobs. J later married and then his wife also took a job inside for the same water company. J would no more go to college than you become a carpenter.

Son 2, also a J, became a lawyer and works for CA and is a decent lawyer.

I recall he had a lot of trouble passing the BAR and had a very hard time finding a job.
His law school was not one of the best from what I know of.

The two sons dad holds a degree in microbiology but became an electrician. Hre and his wife got wealthy buying property. I hired her in the early 90s as an appraiser. I dearly enjoy her and her family. We have at times chatted as to how to fix education. We have not fixed a thing.

Kathianne

11-27-2012, 04:19 PM

Race sure gets left in the dust when we see evidence it has a lot to do with bad schools.

I am not clear how black teachers rate in school.

I have to this day never once had a black teacher.

Not in grade school. I never saw blacks in grade school. I never saw Mexicans either till I was in the 6th grade. Those kids were terrible students. I became friends with some mexicans and one was a punk though he was nice to me. To others, he wanted to pick fights. In general,. those who lived in the worst areas seemed to want to cause trouble. Given their life, maybe one can try to rationalize it.

I have in my office a dear friend. Let's call her Lady Z. She holds two masters degrees. She taught special needs students. She quit. She told me it drove her nuts. (one in art and the next in education) (as an aside, she and her husband voted for Romney and her son the lawyer handed her his ballot. He thought he voted for Obama. She put down Romney for him. LOL I don't have the heart to tell him what she did. That is up to her to tell him)

LZ went to college in MA. She and her husband graduated from a university in MA.

She has two sons.

Son J works at the water district on street jobs. J later married and then his wife also took a job inside for the same water company. J would no more go to college than you become a carpenter.

Son 2, also a J, became a lawyer and works for CA and is a decent lawyer.

I recall he had a lot of trouble passing the BAR and had a very hard time finding a job.
His law school was not one of the best from what I know of.

The two sons dad holds a degree in microbiology but became an electrician. Hre and his wife got wealthy buying property. I hired her in the early 90s as an appraiser. I dearly enjoy her and her family. We have at times chatted as to how to fix education. We have not fixed a thing.

We all have our prejudices. Mine happens to be that race isn't a factor regarding intelligence, it's more cultural norms and socio-economic factors. Children of college graduates tend to graduate college. Children of high school graduates tend to get college degrees or some college. Children of parents that didn't graduate high school, but are ahead on socio-economic scale, tend to get HS diploma and some college.

There's a pattern.

If children are raised with two biological parents in a nurturing, high expectation environment, they tend to succeed.

Divorce or non-marriage tends to mess that up.

Higher socio-economic factors have to do with:

1. income (duh)
2. expectations-that your children will do better than yourself
3. Realistic goals for your children doing better: instilling self-discipline, chores, homework, sportsmanship.
4. Instilling ability to follow rules and directions.
Nearly forgot the most important:
5. Delayed gratification

fj1200

11-27-2012, 04:19 PM

Wow, I am completely confused by this thread, so I will just ask one question to fj1200: Given your post, what do you think of Michelle Rhee's working within the system to change the public schools?

I saw a documentary about her "radical" changes in the D. C. schools, and I knew she wouldn't last. She resigned (I am sure under vast pressure to do so) in 2010.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Rhee

While I don't claim to be an expert on Rhee or her methods she does seem to have attacked directly, as in the "Friedman" piece, the new constituencies that aren't central to the real consumers of education; teachers and administrators. I think you are always going to have this sort of problem when you have a "natural monopoly" especially one that is created by government fiat.

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 04:51 PM

We all have our prejudices. Mine happens to be that race isn't a factor regarding intelligence, it's more cultural norms and socio-economic factors. Children of college graduates tend to graduate college. Children of high school graduates tend to get college degrees or some college. Children of parents that didn't graduate high school, but are ahead on socio-economic scale, tend to get HS diploma and some college.

There's a pattern.

If children are raised with two biological parents in a nurturing, high expectation environment, they tend to succeed.

Divorce or non-marriage tends to mess that up.

Higher socio-economic factors have to do with:

1. income (duh)
2. expectations-that your children will do better than yourself
3. Realistic goals for your children doing better: instilling self-discipline, chores, homework, sportsmanship.
4. Instilling ability to follow rules and directions.
Nearly forgot the most important:
5. Delayed gratification

I had ZERO prejudice. To this day, I have none that I am aware of.

See, you know so little of me and my background, it seems easy to use that as an excuse.

I could not have had prejudice since mom would not allow it. Since i was not exposed to blacks until in my teens and those I saw seemed fine to me, it could not be prejudice.

I had to learn.

Who taught me?

Blacks taught me.

I ran into many blacks in the Army. Those taught me. I was disgusted at their language early on in the army. I saw no reason for them to try to connect mothers and sex in their speaking habits.

I tried hard to be friends to them. Some allowed it. Some refused.

I again tried in Germany. I noticed though that sooner or later, other than one, the rest showed me true colors. So, it is not prejudiced, but learned on my part.

I have a black friend who was born in Africa. And he and I have been friends since around 1980. When he met me, I was then a new republican. I had up until age 42 been a democrat.

I spent over half my life as a democrat. Since my parents were strict democrats, I count all of that time from birth since I was very schooled in being a democrat.

OK, both my parents did not finish high school. I had no college graduates in my family tree.
Matter of fact, on moms side, her father had been a member of the communist party. He and grandma named a son after a communist. My uncle that got killed in the early days of the Korean war was named after the communist, Eugene V. Debbs. They only added their last name and he had 4 names. I would say that I was raised super so called liberal.

If my mother would catch any of her kids using the dreaded N word, she would have had Dad put us to the belt.

My daughter with the university degree got it because of me. I do not intend to take credit from her but her mother did not give one damn about college. I deliberately made sure she grew up knowing I valued college very much. I would attend college as she grew up. I set the example for her. She had drive. She is very smart. College was fairly easy for her.

My next daughter is in her mid 20s and her mom also dismissed college. She had not graduated high school. She was a natural born mother. She hated working. She only wanted to live in a home with a swimming pool so she could lay around in her bikini. She made bikinis look great. I think she died last year and shall post a link below.

I believe you got it correct just to mention that.

In our state, where property gets high priced, one can see that since property taxes are based on taxing homes, of course where taxes are high, since parents tend to hold degrees, one can assume that is why those kids do better. I can't disagree with that premise. Money and parents education is a factor. I graduated from high school with no problem and had college prep courses. In college I had to foot 100 percent of the costs and given I got super low pay and had to work 40 hours per week, it was very hard to put all my attention to college. And I took stiff courses. I had one so called easy course. Well, if I count Poly science, make it two. English was the other. Not bone head, but a writing course.

Work and commutting realy sapped me.

When I was in college, an engineer at the Lawrence Livermore Lab used me to test out his books on calculus and the lower maths. I think he gave me credit in his books for helping him.

He wrote his books for those working at that lab.

My forte was science and math. I came from an uneducated family as you must recall. My family never tried to educate me. I admit as a young guy, I loved too many topics and had a very hard time trying to pick a favorite field.

I even toyed with the idea of being a commercial airline pilot. After being in the Air Force as an officer of course flying those airplanes.

Alas, I did not. I got hired by my step dad in construction and the money was so good I stayed in that for 9 years.

Anyway, this is not the topic about me, but I hoped to defend myself from claims I am prejudiced.

No, I was taught. And not by white people.

Kathianne

11-27-2012, 05:25 PM

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 05:48 PM

I found Bob's post interesting. Really, though I never claimed he was prejudiced, much less labeled him as such.

There is something in, 'you doth protest too much.'

Bob has led an extremely interesting life, though this thread isn't about him, as he said.

I try to nip things like that in the bud.
Glad you only replied to my comments by bringing up prejudice so I of course would NOT think given our past exchanges you hinted it was me you thought of.

I probably erred in two things.

I may have made a mistake speaking of my past and I made a mistake thinking you live in my state.

I don't live in Ill though I do live in Ca. Where it's warm right now.

Kathianne

11-27-2012, 06:23 PM

I try to nip things like that in the bud.
Glad you only replied to my comments by bringing up prejudice so I of course would NOT think given our past exchanges you hinted it was me you thought of.

I probably erred in two things.

I may have made a mistake speaking of my past and I made a mistake thinking you live in my state.

I don't live in Ill though I do live in Ca. Where it's warm right now.

Okay.

gabosaurus

11-27-2012, 06:54 PM

Laying off teachers to become more educated is an interesting point.

So... If we want to better protected, do we lay off police officers and members of the military?

Kathianne

11-27-2012, 07:12 PM

Laying off teachers to become more educated is an interesting point.

So... If we want to better protected, do we lay off police officers and members of the military?

I agree with you in the main, but this seems to be Bob's thread. He seems to be advocating alternative programs en toto. From k-12 and beyond.

I'm definitely onboard for anything that will lift the boat, just don't think his online studies across the board will do that. He means well, just not willing to stop slapping those that disagree with him in part.

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 07:22 PM

Laying off teachers to become more educated is an interesting point.

So... If we want to better protected, do we lay off police officers and members of the military?

Education is not remotely like cops or the military.

But you should have known that.

The Military happens to be one of the duties the constitution lays out for the Feds.

Cops are not in it.

To remedy this, states hired cops.

Remember that the Secret Service started out as a private agency.

States to deal with this, formally started being in charge of education around 1845 as I recall. I can't remember what state started it but suspect it might have been MA. I can of course look it up. Unless you want to.

When we move from one state to another, we become subject to that states laws.

I argue that much of what happens is local. And to try to put such burdens on the Feds only leads to unneeded reliance on the Feds since those politicans act as if they run the country when I know that my state runs my state.

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 07:27 PM

I agree with you in the main, but this seems to be Bob's thread. He seems to be advocating alternative programs en toto. From k-12 and beyond.

I'm definitely onboard for anything that will lift the boat, just don't think his online studies across the board will do that. He means well, just not willing to stop slapping those that disagree with him in part.

I too want the boat lifted for everybody.

I believe that the Khan program will proceed very slowly until some experts get behind it. I notice that those not in favor of Kahn seem vested in the old way.

And you did fine up to the point you once again tried to make this about me.

I am not clear anybody disagreed with me since how can one have a stand when all I did was ask questions?

You never did explain how asking a question amounts to a stand.

And I hae not slapped anybody. A few have sure made it clear they don't like my comments and in effect bitch slapped me.

Do you happen to know who might have done that to me?

fj1200

11-27-2012, 09:58 PM

Laying off teachers to become more educated is an interesting point.

So... If we want to better protected, do we lay off police officers and members of the military?

Hmm, considering that adding teachers has not caused students to become more educated...

http://www.freedomkentucky.org/images/thumb/6/60/GarenReport3.jpg/500px-GarenReport3.jpg

aboutime

11-27-2012, 10:05 PM

We've all been reading the TITLE of this thread, all wrong.

Yes. It says "Be better educated,,,lay off teachers"

But...the interpretation of those words seem to have been meant as a WARNING. "LAY OFF (of the) TEACHERS".

I know what the reaction might be. So, don't come back at me all angry, and twisted out of shape.

Just think about it. Then. Let it go.

Robert A Whit

11-27-2012, 10:56 PM

We have some reluctant posters who simply either did not read or refused to read that text of the first post.

Had they read the post, they would see that in the body of text, clearly this was a question.

Improve thyself before trying to improve me.

avatar4321

11-27-2012, 11:18 PM

While I don't claim to be an expert on Rhee or her methods she does seem to have attacked directly, as in the "Friedman" piece, the new constituencies that aren't central to the real consumers of education; teachers and administrators. I think you are always going to have this sort of problem when you have a "natural monopoly" especially one that is created by government fiat.

Then we need to find a way to break the monopoly.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

11-27-2012, 11:40 PM

Hmm, considering that adding teachers has not caused students to become more educated...

http://www.freedomkentucky.org/images/thumb/6/60/GarenReport3.jpg/500px-GarenReport3.jpg

Seems that quality over quantity is an unknown concept to our liberal politicians. They much prefer quantity because that increases the dem supporting union roles.-Tyr

Abbey Marie

11-28-2012, 09:51 AM

I have yet to see the disctrict that doesn't claim throwing more money at the problem will solve it.

fj1200

11-28-2012, 09:54 AM

Then we need to find a way to break the monopoly.

Well, WI and Chicago shows us how much grief cities and states get for making/proposing any changes. I think I remember a city in CO going full voucher; might have to see if there is any more news about that.

I have yet to see the disctrict that doesn't claim throwing more money at the problem will solve it.

If some is good, more is better right? ;)

Abbey Marie

11-28-2012, 09:56 AM

Well, WI and Chicago shows us how much grief cities and states get for making/proposing any changes. I think I remember a city in CO going full voucher; might have to see if there is any more news about that.

If some is good, more is better right? ;)

Especially if you are talking amp volume. ;)

Kathianne

11-28-2012, 11:24 AM

Seems that quality over quantity is an unknown concept to our liberal politicians. They much prefer quantity because that increases the dem supporting union roles.-Tyr

I agree about class sizes, to a point. At least in good districts, seems the best number is around 28, can go to 32, comfortably. The worst classes I've taught have had less than 15 students. The kids fight like siblings. Behavior management is actually easier with a larger class.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

11-28-2012, 11:30 AM

I have yet to see the disctrict that doesn't claim throwing more money at the problem will solve it.

If I let my dog crap in the neighbor's yard enough that he complains then starts throwing money at me to do better thats one thing. However If I buy another dog then let that dog make things worse and he throws more money at me, well hell , pet store here I come and I hope you have plenty of dogs to sell!
I wouldnt let such a profitable never ending cycle end!! Government will not either unless forced!--Tyr

aboutime

11-28-2012, 03:42 PM

If I let my dog crap in the neighbor's yard enough that he complains then starts throwing money at me to do better thats one thing. However If I buy another dog then let that dog make things worse and he throws more money at me, well hell , pet store here I come and I hope you have plenty of dogs to sell!
I wouldnt let such a profitable never ending cycle end!! Government will not either unless forced!--Tyr

Tyr, and Abbey. Privately. I am trying to gather as much information as I can, relative to the number, and successful elections, and re-elections of Politicians who use the words CHILDREN, FOR THE KIDS, SCHOOLS, and MONEY FOR EDUCATION. Just for starters.

It seems there is a noticeable pattern of Winning, Local, State, and Federal politicians who manage to fool the people, almost every time, when they cry those Alligator Tears, drawing attention to More Money for Education (usually hidden, or unspoken support of unions) and teachers.

Another aspect of such Winning, successes for Politicians also seems to come from highly Democrat area's where...NOT coincidentally. The Crime Rates, Single Mothers, Drug usage, and High school dropout rates are the HIGHEST as well.

GO FIGURE?

Robert A Whit

11-28-2012, 03:52 PM

I agree about class sizes, to a point. At least in good districts, seems the best number is around 28, can go to 32, comfortably. The worst classes I've taught have had less than 15 students. The kids fight like siblings. Behavior management is actually easier with a larger class.

I have to check one more time but in my area I think the law was passed to limit class sizes to no more than 20. I hate to ask Lady Z since she taught special needs kids and that is a different problem.

ERASE my comments. I offer a link showing that the economy has caused class sizes to go back up. Today it seems class sizes of 30 are in vogue in my area.

I had no idea since we had a law passed. It is not being followed since the state modified the law.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/iteam&id=7126672

Kathianne

11-28-2012, 06:16 PM

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/iteam&id=7126672

We don't have many classes over 30, but there are some with 32 or even 34. As I said, it was shocking to me to find these classes were often better behaved than much smaller classes. Went against all I had read and been taught at university. However, upon reflection realized I shouldn't have been surprised. I went to parochial school in the 60's and we often had cloe to 40 in classes and there was little misbehavior. This is especially true for middle school and grades 9 & 10.

I haven't a clue if that holds for the lower grades, I imagine not very effective for grades k-2, where an extraordinary amount of individual time is necessary for reading and basic maths.

While I'd rather have 20 than say, 11 kids in a class; even 20 is quite small for making up diverse groups for projects and such. I must say that I really think a class of 28-30 close to ideal for social studies at least.

I sub quite a lot in special ed and it certainly isn't the same. Of course it depends on the severity of the disabilities. Since I'm only in secondary classrooms I do know that multi-needs, the most severely afflicted has close to a 2:1 or even slightly higher number of adults to students. There is at least two certified teachers, double or more certified aids, usually a nurse, a rotating position of 'special' servers: speech, occupational therapist, physical therapist, etc.

Step up to 'self-contained' sheltered direct teaching-mostly low IQ, no serious medical needs. 1 certified teacher, 3 aides, perhaps 8 students.

LD/BD/EMD kids, mainstreamed into smaller sized classes, 1 certified teacher has perhaps 18-20 kids on caseload. May co-teach several classes a day with a certified math/science/social studies/English with regular classroom teacher. In actuality the spec ed teacher serves more as an aid for students that are mainstreamed. Checks to make sure their lessons are written in planners, checks if homework is completed and correct, checks behavior and will remove from class if needed. Pulls students out that need extra time or tests read to them.