Shi'ites mark Ashura

[jimnyc]

So, is beating the crap out of ones self supposed to help remember Muhammad's grandson? This is how they remember the death. And no, I didn't go looking for the vid, I watch the highlighted videos here everyday, this just appeared today. Weird shit.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=813a2bd99472" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Marcus Aurelius]

as whacked as that is, there are actually a few religions that practice that.

Keep in mind that according to Jafar, Shia is not part of Islam, so this doesn't reflect poorly on Islam.

[jimnyc]

as whacked as that is, there are actually a few religions that practice that.

Keep in mind that according to Jafar, Shia is not part of Islam, so this doesn't reflect poorly on Islam.

Well, he's wrong, as they are part of Islam and I have friends to prove it. There are around 200 million Shiites in over 20 countries around the world. He would likely want to deny the existence of Jews too, but they're still here as well. Whether he likes it or not, Shiites are a part of Islam.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Well, he's wrong, as they are part of Islam and I have friends to prove it. There are around 200 million Shiites in over 20 countries around the world. He would likely want to deny the existence of Jews too, but they're still here as well. Whether he likes it or not, Shiites are a part of Islam.

Of course he's wrong, as my sig shows (TY to Drummond)

[jafar00]

I'm sorry but there is no way that Islam in any way condemns this detestable custom from Shia'ism.

Who in their right mind intentionally cuts into their child's head?!?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9JUrbjKa9Ak/ULOp4rXcEAI/AAAAAAACKPU/F9FXfSJtWSU/s1600/child%252520ashura%255B1%255D.jpg

[Kathianne]

I'm sorry but there is no way that Islam in any way condemns this detestable custom from Shia'ism.

Who in their right mind intentionally cuts into their child's head?!?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9JUrbjKa9Ak/ULOp4rXcEAI/AAAAAAACKPU/F9FXfSJtWSU/s1600/child%252520ashura%255B1%255D.jpg

Is that what you meant to convey?

[aboutime]

How can anyone explain showing this kind of intentional treatment, and defend it. While, at the same time. Millions of those same people detest, and make threats about killing anyone like WE WESTERNERS who seek, and admire Liberty, Freedom, Rights, and the ability to speak freely whenever we want????

[jafar00]

Another point I would like to add, the way they shout "Ya Hussein" (Oh Hussein) is tantamount to Kufr (disbelief). Muslims supplicate to God alone and do not use intermediaries like the Shia.

[jafar00]

Well, he's wrong, as they are part of Islam and I have friends to prove it. There are around 200 million Shiites in over 20 countries around the world. He would likely want to deny the existence of Jews too, but they're still here as well. Whether he likes it or not, Shiites are a part of Islam.

So if we are both a part of Islam, we should be able to pray next to each other, and do it almost the same way right?

Wrong. I have been run out of a Shia Mosque which I entered by accident. The way they pray and many other customs are far removed from what we do.

[aboutime]

Another point I would like to add, the way they shout "Ya Hussein" (Oh Hussein) is tantamount to Kufr (disbelief). Muslims supplicate to God alone and do not use intermediaries like the Shia.


jafar. Since you are here. Are you now willing to speak the words "I detest the actions of HAMAS"?

[jafar00]

Is that what you meant to convey?

Sorry I meant "condones"

Busy day....

[jafar00]

jafar. Since you are here. Are you now willing to speak the words "I detest the actions of HAMAS"?

Some things yes, others not.

[aboutime]

Some things yes, others not.


How about just telling us you do not support, or condone the Terrorists of Hamas?

[jimnyc]

So if we are both a part of Islam, we should be able to pray next to each other, and do it almost the same way right?

Wrong. I have been run out of a Shia Mosque which I entered by accident. The way they pray and many other customs are far removed from what we do.

Which is like someone from NY telling someone from Florida that they are not American. Whether you like it or not, the entire world considers Shia to be Islam. The ONLY people denying it are Sunni Muslims who have yet another enemy.

[Kathianne]

Some things yes, others not.

How about specificities.

[jafar00]

How about specificities.

Defending themselves from Israeli attacks and the illegal blockade is ok. They also have a right to defend themselves.

Things like dragging corpses behind motorcycles are not at all acceptable.

[aboutime]

How about specificities.


That kind of response from jafar is what most of us expected. Non-committal, and as for specifics. He uses the Obama method of DANCING around with the rhetoric, and semantics of the English language to say NOTHING.

[jimnyc]

Defending themselves from Israeli attacks and the illegal blockade is ok. They also have a right to defend themselves.

Things like dragging corpses behind motorcycles are not at all acceptable.

So them shooting rockets, as a terror organization, and that rocket kills innocent people, you're cool with that? And when they send someone in to blow up a bus full of innocent people, you're cool with that?

The way I see it, the ONLY way they would be defending themselves would be like in a typical war, where you attack your "enemy", as in the other combatant. Hamas is never targeting the military, always innocents. That's not protecting themselves when they continually lob bombs aimlessly looking to produce "jew blood", that's terrorism each and every time.

[Drummond]

Defending themselves from Israeli attacks and the illegal blockade is ok. They also have a right to defend themselves.

Things like dragging corpses behind motorcycles are not at all acceptable.

Terrorism, Jafar, isn't about defence ! It's about ATTACK. And, Hamas are TERRORISTS.

Since this is so, your condemnation - IF you aren't sympathetic to terrorism ! - should be clear, unequivocal, shouldn't be any problem for you to express.

SO WHY ISN'T IT A PROBLEM-FREE TASK FOR YOU ?

... and for your information, terrorists have NO right to 'defend' themselves (!!) .. most certainly not Hamas, who provoke all the responses they get.

We knew you'd not be able to condemn Hamas outright, and sure enough, you've not done so.

[Kathianne]

Defending themselves from Israeli attacks and the illegal blockade is ok. They also have a right to defend themselves.

Things like dragging corpses behind motorcycles are not at all acceptable.

The Israelis were responding to missile attacks over 10 days, before responding. Only Israel would find themselves with a 'defense' like Iron Dome, with a 90% success yield and call that a win.

Any sane country, with their capabilities would have destroyed the ability to lob missiles at their civilians.

Israel is not sane, thanks to the UN.

I guess it's a version of, "I brought you into this world, I can take you out."

[Marcus Aurelius]

I'm sorry but there is no way that Islam in any way condemns this detestable custom from Shia'ism.

Who in their right mind intentionally cuts into their child's head?!?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9JUrbjKa9Ak/ULOp4rXcEAI/AAAAAAACKPU/F9FXfSJtWSU/s1600/child%252520ashura%255B1%255D.jpg

Do you know what a Freudian Slip is, Jafar? You just made one.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Another point I would like to add, the way they shout "Ya Hussein" (Oh Hussein) is tantamount to Kufr (disbelief). Muslims supplicate to God alone and do not use intermediaries like the Shia.

The Shia ARE Muslims, moron. That has already been shown. You are in denial... about a great many things it seems.


http://islam.about.com/cs/divisions/f/shia_sunni.htm


Question: What's the Difference Between Shia and Sunni Muslims?

Answer: Both Sunni and Shia Muslims share the most fundamental Islamic beliefs and articles of faith (http://islam.about.com/od/basicbeliefs/p/intro.htm). The differences between these two main sub-groups within Islam initially stemmed not from spiritual differences, but political ones. Over the centuries, however, these political differences have spawned a number of varying practices and positions which have come to carry a spiritual significance.


It is important to remember that despite these differences in opinion and practice, Shia and Sunni Muslims share the main articles of Islamic belief and are considered by most to be brethren in faith. In fact, most Muslims do not distinguish themselves by claiming membership in any particular group, but prefer to call themselves simply, "Muslims."

[jafar00]

So them shooting rockets, as a terror organization, and that rocket kills innocent people, you're cool with that? And when they send someone in to blow up a bus full of innocent people, you're cool with that?

The way I see it, the ONLY way they would be defending themselves would be like in a typical war, where you attack your "enemy", as in the other combatant. Hamas is never targeting the military, always innocents. That's not protecting themselves when they continually lob bombs aimlessly looking to produce "jew blood", that's terrorism each and every time.

If you want them to have better aim, give them helicopters, advanced artillery and satellite intel like you give the Israelis. The weapons they use now are little better than bottle rockets. Just point in the general direction and pray it hits something worthwhile.

[Gaffer]

If you want them to have better aim, give them helicopters, advanced artillery and satellite intel like you give the Israelis. The weapons they use now are little better than bottle rockets. Just point in the general direction and pray it hits something worthwhile.

Yeah give the savages better weaponry, that will work. :rolleyes: Maybe Israel could shut down their iron dome defense system too. That would make it even more fair, right? How about Israel give the barbarians some of their tanks and armored vehicles too.

Those "bottle rockets" killed people, wounded a bunch of others and destroyed buildings, including schools. But you don't give a shit about that.

[jafar00]

The Shia ARE Muslims, moron. That has already been shown. You are in denial... about a great many things it seems.

Ok, resort to the insults. It's all you have. Shia insult companions of the Prophet (saw) and his wives as a part of their doctrine. The companions are the people who spent their lives, even gave their lives for Islam in the early days.

On that account alone they are disbelievers. The Qur'aan describes them as thus.... (those that are enraged at the companions of the Prophet (saw) as the Shia do, are unbelievers).

Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.
(48:29)

There are other things that set Shia aside from Muslims.

They supplicate to other than Allah directly. "Ya Hussein", "Ya Ali", "Ya Mahdi" and so on. Watch the video in the OP to see them supplicating to Hussein as they flagellate themselves. This makes them more like Christians who also use intermediaries.

The Shia helped the Christian Crusades against the Muslims

The Shia permit and even promote the idea of temporary marriage. Even for a few hours. While temporary marriage was a custom in the early days of Islam, the Prophet (saw) later forbade it.

The Shia don't believe that the Qur'aan is the authentic word of God

The Shia believe their Imams have the gift of seeing the unseen when such a gift was only given to Prophets. They consider their Imams to be infallible and sinless. Yes, that means Ayatollah Khameini.

Taqiyaa. Shia permit lying at all times. The Prophet (saw) permitted lying only during war. For example, you are captured and asked where your unit is, and you can reply "They all went home for a nice hot meal and a bath".

And so on.....

[Marcus Aurelius]

Ok, resort to the insults. It's all you have. Shia insult companions of the Prophet (saw) and his wives as a part of their doctrine. The companions are the people who spent their lives, even gave their lives for Islam in the early days.

On that account alone they are disbelievers. The Qur'aan describes them as thus.... (those that are enraged at the companions of the Prophet (saw) as the Shia do, are unbelievers).

Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.
(48:29)

There are other things that set Shia aside from Muslims.

They supplicate to other than Allah directly. "Ya Hussein", "Ya Ali", "Ya Mahdi" and so on. Watch the video in the OP to see them supplicating to Hussein as they flagellate themselves. This makes them more like Christians who also use intermediaries.

The Shia helped the Christian Crusades against the Muslims

The Shia permit and even promote the idea of temporary marriage. Even for a few hours. While temporary marriage was a custom in the early days of Islam, the Prophet (saw) later forbade it.

The Shia don't believe that the Qur'aan is the authentic word of God

The Shia believe their Imams have the gift of seeing the unseen when such a gift was only given to Prophets. They consider their Imams to be infallible and sinless. Yes, that means Ayatollah Khameini.

Taqiyaa. Shia permit lying at all times. The Prophet (saw) permitted lying only during war. For example, you are captured and asked where your unit is, and you can reply "They all went home for a nice hot meal and a bath".

And so on.....

you claimed the prophet did not lie or condone lying.

Were you... lying?

The rest of the world, including the Shia, consider them Muslim. It's a shame you don't.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Ok, resort to the insults. It's all you have. Shia insult companions of the Prophet (saw) and his wives as a part of their doctrine. The companions are the people who spent their lives, even gave their lives for Islam in the early days.

On that account alone they are disbelievers. The Qur'aan describes them as thus.... (those that are enraged at the companions of the Prophet (saw) as the Shia do, are unbelievers).

Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.
(48:29)

There are other things that set Shia aside from Muslims.

They supplicate to other than Allah directly. "Ya Hussein", "Ya Ali", "Ya Mahdi" and so on. Watch the video in the OP to see them supplicating to Hussein as they flagellate themselves. This makes them more like Christians who also use intermediaries.

The Shia helped the Christian Crusades against the Muslims

The Shia permit and even promote the idea of temporary marriage. Even for a few hours. While temporary marriage was a custom in the early days of Islam, the Prophet (saw) later forbade it.

The Shia don't believe that the Qur'aan is the authentic word of God

The Shia believe their Imams have the gift of seeing the unseen when such a gift was only given to Prophets. They consider their Imams to be infallible and sinless. Yes, that means Ayatollah Khameini.

Taqiyaa. Shia permit lying at all times. The Prophet (saw) permitted lying only during war. For example, you are captured and asked where your unit is, and you can reply "They all went home for a nice hot meal and a bath".

And so on.....

http://shiamuslim.20m.com/whats_new_2.html

Dr Shahid Athar, MD
(his own website is http://www.islam-usa.com/)

Are Shia Muslims ?

In Islam there are five recognized schools of Divine Law:
1) Hanafi;
2) Shafi;
3) Maliki;
4) Hanbali and
5) Jafari.


The first four are called Sunni, and the fifth one, who in addition to following sayings and actions of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.), also follows those of Ali and consider him as the rightful successor of the Prophet, are called Shia .
The first four have many major theological differences among themselves and according to a Christian friend of mine, "The only time Sunnis are united is when they are fighting Shias." Shi'ism started as a political movement (Shia means follower or partisan) to help Ali become successor of Muhammad (S.A.W.).


Nevertheless, I tell my non-Muslim audience that both Shia and Sunni have many things in common. They both believe in One God (Allah), follow the same Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) as the last Prophet, offer five daily prescribed prayers, perform the prescribed fast in the month of Ramadan, go to Makkah for the pilgrimage (hajj), read the same Quran, and pay the poor-due.

This part reminds me of you, Jafar...

The Sunni brothers, misguided by western propaganda. who are ready to embrace non-Muslims (especially the white ones), in the pretext of invitation to Islam, will not do so for Shia. They are ignorant Sunnis.


There are scholars on both sides, like Imam Khomeini and Shaykh Shaltut of al-Azhar who have done their best to minimize these differences and bring unity, but it is not working due to the misinformation prevailing in the common masses of Sunnis about Shi'ism. Thus I am listing their misconceptions of Shia belief and practices. For answers, I have consulted two Shia scholars in America., Dr. A. S. Hashim of Washington and Imam Muhammad Ali Elahi of Detroit.


Misconception #1:
Shias have a different Quran. They add another 10 chapters to the original Quran.

Response: Not true. I have checked many times Quran kept in Shia homes and mosques. I still find it the same as the original Quran. More recently, I took care of an Iranian lady patient hospitalized here. I saw a copy of the Quran by her side. I borrowed it from her and browsed through cover to cover. In Arabic it was the same as our Quran. Of course, since I did not know the Persian language, I can't say much about the translation. It is a sin to even say that the Quran can be changed or added to by Shia when it is protected by God.


Misconception #2:
Some Shia consider Ali as God.

Response: Not true. It is disbelief to even think of such a thing. During the time of Ali, some pagan groups called Gholat did consider Ali as Lord. When he found out, they were burned to death. Alawis of Syria may have a similar belief, but they are non-Muslims, neither Shia nor Sunni.


Misconception #3:
Shias have different declarations of faith and they add to the call to prescribed prayer.

Response: The declaration to become a Muslim, as administered to non-Muslims, is the same. Some Shia add to themselves, "Ali is a friend of God (S.A.W.) or Ali is a spiritual leader of God," after the call to prescribed prayer, but not as part of the call to prescribed prayer.


Misconception #4:
Shias do not perform sunnah prayers. Sunnah prayers are non obligatory prayers performed by Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.).

Response: Shia do perform non-obligatory prayers, 36 cycles per day in total, but call it nawafil and not sunnah.


Misconception #5:
Some Shia believe the Angel Gabriel made a mistake and prophethood was meant for Ali and not Muhammad (S.A.W.).

Response: Not true. No Shia thinks of such false claims. "Only demented minds think of such questions."


Misconception #6:
Shias slander and ridicule the first three caliphs (Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman) and Prophet Muhammad's wife, Ayisha.

Response: Shia consider the first three caliphs as great companions and good Muslim administrators, but not spiritual leaders (imams). Imam Jafar Sadiq, whose mother and grandmother came from the line of Abu Bakr, said of Abu Bakr, "He gave me birth twice." Ayisha is respected by Shias as the "Mother of Believers," as Ali respected her when he sent her back from Basra to Madinah after the Battle of the Camel. If some Shia do slander the three caliphs and Ayisha, they do it out of ignorance and should ask God's forgiveness.


Misconception # 7:
Shias combine all five prayers into one prayer in the evening.

Response: Not true. In Shia mosques, whether in Iran or the USA, all five daily prayers are performed. Some working Shia do combine noon and afternoon and evening and night, but Shia scholars recommend performing them separately. Such combinations may not be ideal, but better than not praying at all. How can a Sunni who does not pray at all be better than a Shia who combines prayers?


Misconception # 8:
Shias do not pay zakat (poor-due).

Response: Not true. They not only pay 2.5% left over from savings as zakat, but also an additional 20% as khums or general charity. However, they prefer to pay directly to the needy rather than corrupt Sunni government.


Misconception #9:
Shias practice temporary marriages (mutah).

Response: Mutah (temporary marriages) was allowed during the time of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) and he himself practiced it. Ibn Zubayr was born out of the temporary marriage. Later on Caliph Umar prohibited it due to social reasons as the Islamic world was rapidly expanding. Shias discourage mutah but do not consider it prohibited. Some do abuse this. As a temporary privilege during travel, it is better than adultery.


Misconception #10:
They consider Imams infallible and above the prophets.

Response: Not true. All prophets are born Prophet but as mentioned in Quran about Abraham that after passing the test, a prophet becomes a leader (Imam). Imams are carriers of the message of Islam. Shias consider Ali only as an Imam, but Muhammad (S.A.W.) is the Prophet (nabi), Messenger (rasul) and leader (imam). With the little knowledge I have, I have tried to do my best as a Sunni in defending my Shia brothers in Islam with the hope and prayer to God Almighty that He will "instill love in the heart of the believers" and bring us closer to each other so that we jointly can fight our common enemy, Satan and his followers.



perhaps this will open Jafar's eyes to reality.... I tend to doubt it.

[jimnyc]

If you want them to have better aim, give them helicopters, advanced artillery and satellite intel like you give the Israelis. The weapons they use now are little better than bottle rockets. Just point in the general direction and pray it hits something worthwhile.

Dance, dance, dance and ignore answering the direct questions so many have asked of you. It answering by omission as far as I'm concerned. It's crystal clear that you support the terrorists because their enemy is the Jews. Now it's ok that they just toss rockets in no general direction, but if Israel directly hits a terrorist, and in that area is a civilian, they are now in the wrong.

You've had WAY too many chances to take back your words, clarify them or expand on them or directly answer others questions. You would rather avoid and dodge, as it may become even more clearer to others, that you are a terrorist supporter and hater of Jews. Those are 2 things I'm not so sure that the Quran totally supports, or does it? Either way, outright sickening, IMO, and more so from a "man" that continually claims that he is peaceful and against such acts - but does a 180 in a heartbeat.

[Drummond]

If you want them to have better aim, give them helicopters, advanced artillery and satellite intel like you give the Israelis. The weapons they use now are little better than bottle rockets. Just point in the general direction and pray it hits something worthwhile.

Incredible.

Post #10 on this thread, Jafar .. here's a link to it ...

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?37943-Shi-ites-mark-Ashura&p=595523#post595523


jafar. Since you are here. Are you now willing to speak the words "I detest the actions of HAMAS"?- And your answer (since you ducked that challenge, from Aboutime) turns out instead to be as above, where you contrive a reason for suggesting that the US gives Hamas better weaponry than they already have ??!?

I say again: INCREDIBLE.

Hardly what you'd expect of anyone who's anti-terrorist, now, IS IT ?

Some of us think it better to support the VICTIMS of terrorism, Jafar, rather than arm the PERPETRATORS of it.

Try to understand this.

Enough said.

[aboutime]

Reminder to all. The member who identifies himself as 'jafar' is nothing but a terrorist shill who comes here to incite, and support the terrorists who bring hatred, ignorance, and stupidity to Light, for the entire world to see.
Jafar is a "FALSE PROPHET" and Phony. Nothing more. Nothing less.

He has proven his hypocrisy countless times, and the hatred he brings here is lower than the scum that forms in deep, dark toilets.

[Drummond]

Reminder to all. The member who identifies himself as 'jafar' is nothing but a terrorist shill who comes here to incite, and support the terrorists who bring hatred, ignorance, and stupidity to Light, for the entire world to see.
Jafar is a "FALSE PROPHET" and Phony. Nothing more. Nothing less.

He has proven his hypocrisy countless times, and the hatred he brings here is lower than the scum that forms in deep, dark toilets.

It's not even that Jafar 'just' supports terrorists. He goes further. He supports a territory that chose, by empowering Hamas to rule it, to become a terrorist State in its own right. And, he rails against Israel for maintaining its efforts to confine it behind a protective boundary (protective to Israel, their victims).

If Jafar had his way, such a constraining measure, the blockade Israel maintains, would not exist ... he considers it 'illegal' ... which would enhance Hamas's terrorist capabilities many times over. They'd import many more missiles. They'd arm themselves much more than before. No doubt the traffic in suicide bombers would increase severalfold as a consequence of enhanced terrorist capability.

Gaza would become one big terrorist 'factory'.

Jafar says he doesn't approve of the Taliban. But the Taliban, as well as being terrorists themselves, turned their land into its own version of terrorist factory, by facilitating Al Qaeda. This to me, isn't greatly different for what he'd wish for Gaza.

Terrorist States exist as such to exert a deadly, pernicious effect upon their victims. Such entities are not deserving of the consideration that 'human rights' do-gooders mean them to enjoy. Just as diseased cells promote disease in a human body, so Terrorist States are the equivalent of disease within the social diversity of Nation States the world over.

There is no reason for showing them tolerance or consideration. NONE.

[aboutime]

It's not even that Jafar 'just' supports terrorists. He goes further. He supports a territory that chose, by empowering Hamas to rule it, to become a terrorist State in its own right. And, he rails against Israel for maintaining its efforts to confine it behind a protective boundary (protective to Israel, their victims).

If Jafar had his way, such a constraining measure, the blockade Israel maintains, would not exist ... he considers it 'illegal' ... which would enhance Hamas's terrorist capabilities many times over. They'd import many more missiles. They'd arm themselves much more than before. No doubt the traffic in suicide bombers would increase severalfold as a consequence of enhanced terrorist capability.

Gaza would become one big terrorist 'factory'.

Jafar says he doesn't approve of the Taliban. But the Taliban, as well as being terrorists themselves, turned their land into its own version of terrorist factory, by facilitating Al Qaeda. This to me, isn't greatly different for what he'd wish for Gaza.

Terrorist States exist as such to exert a deadly, pernicious effect upon their victims. Such entities are not deserving of the consideration that 'human rights' do-gooders mean them to enjoy. Just as diseased cells promote disease in a human body, so Terrorist States are the equivalent of disease within the social diversity of Nation States the world over.

There is no reason for showing them tolerance or consideration. NONE.


Mr. Drummond. Have you noticed how quiet the Obama admin. is being with relation to the proposition about the U.N. soon to vote on granting Palestine Statehood, or whatever they are planning to call it as Recognition?

We all know. If that happens with the blessings of the U.N. Iran will have just about all they need, calling Palestine a Sov. nation, and giving them Legal Military support.

[Kathianne]

Mr. Drummond. Have you noticed how quiet the Obama admin. is being with relation to the proposition about the U.N. soon to vote on granting Palestine Statehood, or whatever they are planning to call it as Recognition?

We all know. If that happens with the blessings of the U.N. Iran will have just about all they need, calling Palestine a Sov. nation, and giving them Legal Military support.

Yep, played like a fiddle.

[Drummond]

Mr. Drummond. Have you noticed how quiet the Obama admin. is being with relation to the proposition about the U.N. soon to vote on granting Palestine Statehood, or whatever they are planning to call it as Recognition?

We all know. If that happens with the blessings of the U.N. Iran will have just about all they need, calling Palestine a Sov. nation, and giving them Legal Military support.

Interesting, and thanks. I've seen nothing on this issue in our media for quite some time .. although, our press has had other things to occupy it. The BBC scandals, the many floods we've had in the UK of late, more 'local' stories like that. I'm guessing it'll only gain any degree of prominence once the UN does what it wants. Our press has been known to bury stories until it's too late for the public to reach any viewpoint worth a damn (itself a Leftie trick, known to have occurred when Blair was our PM).

Another sellout of Israel is on the cards, then. Obama showing his true biases by omission. The silent assassin of an ally's security, as will happen should Palestine gain such a 'status'.

I'm sure your Lefties will be proud of what will follow, if/when that happens. Not least because Islamists will feel emboldened - wherever they are - to undertake new, or threatened, belligerencies.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

If you want them to have better aim, give them helicopters, advanced artillery and satellite intel like you give the Israelis. The weapons they use now are little better than bottle rockets. Just point in the general direction and pray it hits something worthwhile.

THATS THE TICKET.GIVE THE MURDERING TERRORIST SCUM BETTER WEAPONS SO AS TO BE ABLE TO MURDER MORE INNOCENT CIVILIANS.
Spoken just exactly like a true ally /supporter!--Tyr

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://shiamuslim.20m.com/whats_new_2.html

Dr Shahid Athar, MD
(his own website is http://www.islam-usa.com/)


Are Shia Muslims ?
In Islam there are five recognized schools of Divine Law:
1) Hanafi;
2) Shafi;
3) Maliki;
4) Hanbali and
5) Jafari.


The first four are called Sunni, and the fifth one, who in addition to following sayings and actions of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.), also follows those of Ali and consider him as the rightful successor of the Prophet, are called Shia .
The first four have many major theological differences among themselves and according to a Christian friend of mine, "The only time Sunnis are united is when they are fighting Shias." Shi'ism started as a political movement (Shia means follower or partisan) to help Ali become successor of Muhammad (S.A.W.).


Nevertheless, I tell my non-Muslim audience that both Shia and Sunni have many things in common. They both believe in One God (Allah), follow the same Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) as the last Prophet, offer five daily prescribed prayers, perform the prescribed fast in the month of Ramadan, go to Makkah for the pilgrimage (hajj), read the same Quran, and pay the poor-due.





This part reminds me of you, Jafar...

The Sunni brothers, misguided by western propaganda. who are ready to embrace non-Muslims (especially the white ones), in the pretext of invitation to Islam, will not do so for Shia. They are ignorant Sunnis.




There are scholars on both sides, like Imam Khomeini and Shaykh Shaltut of al-Azhar who have done their best to minimize these differences and bring unity, but it is not working due to the misinformation prevailing in the common masses of Sunnis about Shi'ism. Thus I am listing their misconceptions of Shia belief and practices. For answers, I have consulted two Shia scholars in America., Dr. A. S. Hashim of Washington and Imam Muhammad Ali Elahi of Detroit.





Misconception #1:
Shias have a different Quran. They add another 10 chapters to the original Quran.

Response: Not true. I have checked many times Quran kept in Shia homes and mosques. I still find it the same as the original Quran. More recently, I took care of an Iranian lady patient hospitalized here. I saw a copy of the Quran by her side. I borrowed it from her and browsed through cover to cover. In Arabic it was the same as our Quran. Of course, since I did not know the Persian language, I can't say much about the translation. It is a sin to even say that the Quran can be changed or added to by Shia when it is protected by God.


Misconception #2:
Some Shia consider Ali as God.

Response: Not true. It is disbelief to even think of such a thing. During the time of Ali, some pagan groups called Gholat did consider Ali as Lord. When he found out, they were burned to death. Alawis of Syria may have a similar belief, but they are non-Muslims, neither Shia nor Sunni.


Misconception #3:
Shias have different declarations of faith and they add to the call to prescribed prayer.

Response: The declaration to become a Muslim, as administered to non-Muslims, is the same. Some Shia add to themselves, "Ali is a friend of God (S.A.W.) or Ali is a spiritual leader of God," after the call to prescribed prayer, but not as part of the call to prescribed prayer.


Misconception #4:
Shias do not perform sunnah prayers. Sunnah prayers are non obligatory prayers performed by Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.).

Response: Shia do perform non-obligatory prayers, 36 cycles per day in total, but call it nawafil and not sunnah.


Misconception #5:
Some Shia believe the Angel Gabriel made a mistake and prophethood was meant for Ali and not Muhammad (S.A.W.).

Response: Not true. No Shia thinks of such false claims. "Only demented minds think of such questions."


Misconception #6:
Shias slander and ridicule the first three caliphs (Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman) and Prophet Muhammad's wife, Ayisha.

Response: Shia consider the first three caliphs as great companions and good Muslim administrators, but not spiritual leaders (imams). Imam Jafar Sadiq, whose mother and grandmother came from the line of Abu Bakr, said of Abu Bakr, "He gave me birth twice." Ayisha is respected by Shias as the "Mother of Believers," as Ali respected her when he sent her back from Basra to Madinah after the Battle of the Camel. If some Shia do slander the three caliphs and Ayisha, they do it out of ignorance and should ask God's forgiveness.


Misconception # 7:
Shias combine all five prayers into one prayer in the evening.

Response: Not true. In Shia mosques, whether in Iran or the USA, all five daily prayers are performed. Some working Shia do combine noon and afternoon and evening and night, but Shia scholars recommend performing them separately. Such combinations may not be ideal, but better than not praying at all. How can a Sunni who does not pray at all be better than a Shia who combines prayers?


Misconception # 8:
Shias do not pay zakat (poor-due).

Response: Not true. They not only pay 2.5% left over from savings as zakat, but also an additional 20% as khums or general charity. However, they prefer to pay directly to the needy rather than corrupt Sunni government.


Misconception #9:
Shias practice temporary marriages (mutah).

Response: Mutah (temporary marriages) was allowed during the time of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) and he himself practiced it. Ibn Zubayr was born out of the temporary marriage. Later on Caliph Umar prohibited it due to social reasons as the Islamic world was rapidly expanding. Shias discourage mutah but do not consider it prohibited. Some do abuse this. As a temporary privilege during travel, it is better than adultery.


Misconception #10:
They consider Imams infallible and above the prophets.

Response: Not true. All prophets are born Prophet but as mentioned in Quran about Abraham that after passing the test, a prophet becomes a leader (Imam). Imams are carriers of the message of Islam. Shias consider Ali only as an Imam, but Muhammad (S.A.W.) is the Prophet (nabi), Messenger (rasul) and leader (imam). With the little knowledge I have, I have tried to do my best as a Sunni in defending my Shia brothers in Islam with the hope and prayer to God Almighty that He will "instill love in the heart of the believers" and bring us closer to each other so that we jointly can fight our common enemy, Satan and his followers.





perhaps this will open Jafar's eyes to reality.... I tend to doubt it.

I noticed Jafar has no counter to this learned Islamic scholar's comments, so he simply pretends they do not exist. typical.

[jafar00]

Misconception #1:
Shias have a different Quran. They add another 10 chapters to the original Quran.

Response: Not true. I have checked many times Quran kept in Shia homes and mosques. I still find it the same as the original Quran. More recently, I took care of an Iranian lady patient hospitalized here. I saw a copy of the Quran by her side. I borrowed it from her and browsed through cover to cover. In Arabic it was the same as our Quran. Of course, since I did not know the Persian language, I can't say much about the translation. It is a sin to even say that the Quran can be changed or added to by Shia when it is protected by God.

I never claimed that.

Misconception #2:
Some Shia consider Ali as God.

Response: Not true. It is disbelief to even think of such a thing. During the time of Ali, some pagan groups called Gholat did consider Ali as Lord. When he found out, they were burned to death. Alawis of Syria may have a similar belief, but they are non-Muslims, neither Shia nor Sunni.

I never claimed that either.

Misconception #3:
Shias have different declarations of faith and they add to the call to prescribed prayer.

Response: The declaration to become a Muslim, as administered to non-Muslims, is the same. Some Shia add to themselves, "Ali is a friend of God (S.A.W.) or Ali is a spiritual leader of God," after the call to prescribed prayer, but not as part of the call to prescribed prayer.

Watch this shahada (declaration of faith) from the Shia. Where they raise Ali (as) to almost Prophethood and proceed to insult the companions of the Prophet (saw) as I said before.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HslKeNB7pQM

Their Adhan (call to prayer) is different too and also calls Ali the "Vice-Regent" of God.

Shia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FulPwb_BmzM

Sunni

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUHDYlJHaOQ



Misconception #4:
Shias do not perform sunnah prayers. Sunnah prayers are non obligatory prayers performed by Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.).

Response: Shia do perform non-obligatory prayers, 36 cycles per day in total, but call it nawafil and not sunnah.

I didn't claim that, however they do pray the obligatory prayers in a completely different way to us.

Misconception #5:
Some Shia believe the Angel Gabriel made a mistake and prophethood was meant for Ali and not Muhammad (S.A.W.).

Response: Not true. No Shia thinks of such false claims. "Only demented minds think of such questions."

Actually I have heard this from some Shia too. However I don't believe it to be a widespread belief.

Misconception #6:
Shias slander and ridicule the first three caliphs (Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman) and Prophet Muhammad's wife, Ayisha.

Response: Shia consider the first three caliphs as great companions and good Muslim administrators, but not spiritual leaders (imams). Imam Jafar Sadiq, whose mother and grandmother came from the line of Abu Bakr, said of Abu Bakr, "He gave me birth twice." Ayisha is respected by Shias as the "Mother of Believers," as Ali respected her when he sent her back from Basra to Madinah after the Battle of the Camel. If some Shia do slander the three caliphs and Ayisha, they do it out of ignorance and should ask God's forgiveness.

See the first video for proof. Or this one (Shahada starts at 2:09)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS1t7-6BiI8

The good Doctor's defense is false.

Misconception # 7:
Shias combine all five prayers into one prayer in the evening.

Response: Not true. In Shia mosques, whether in Iran or the USA, all five daily prayers are performed. Some working Shia do combine noon and afternoon and evening and night, but Shia scholars recommend performing them separately. Such combinations may not be ideal, but better than not praying at all. How can a Sunni who does not pray at all be better than a Shia who combines prayers?

Prayers may be combined. They also may be shortened to 2 Rakats, but only while travelling.

Misconception # 8:
Shias do not pay zakat (poor-due).

Response: Not true. They not only pay 2.5% left over from savings as zakat, but also an additional 20% as khums or general charity. However, they prefer to pay directly to the needy rather than corrupt Sunni government.

I never claimed that.

Misconception #9:
Shias practice temporary marriages (mutah).

Response: Mutah (temporary marriages) was allowed during the time of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) and he himself practiced it. Ibn Zubayr was born out of the temporary marriage. Later on Caliph Umar prohibited it due to social reasons as the Islamic world was rapidly expanding. Shias discourage mutah but do not consider it prohibited. Some do abuse this. As a temporary privilege during travel, it is better than adultery.

He's actually trying to defend it?

Misconception #10:
They consider Imams infallible and above the prophets.

Response: Not true. All prophets are born Prophet but as mentioned in Quran about Abraham that after passing the test, a prophet becomes a leader (Imam). Imams are carriers of the message of Islam. Shias consider Ali only as an Imam, but Muhammad (S.A.W.) is the Prophet (nabi), Messenger (rasul) and leader (imam). With the little knowledge I have, I have tried to do my best as a Sunni in defending my Shia brothers in Islam with the hope and prayer to God Almighty that He will "instill love in the heart of the believers" and bring us closer to each other so that we jointly can fight our common enemy, Satan and his followers.

Check the following quote from Ayatullah Khomeini. Their Imams have "mastery of all the atoms of creation"?!? They "occupy a rank unattainable by either an angel or a Prophet"!?!



Khomeini asserts in his book, Al-Hukumah Al-Islamiyyah:
"Certainly the Imam has a dignified station, a lofty rank, a creational caliphate, and a sovereignty and mastery over all the atoms of creation. It is definitely a basic belief in our school of thought, that our Imams occupy a rank unattainable by either an angel or a major Prophet.

http://www.secondhandislam.co.uk/shia-imams.php

My best guess is the good Doctor is practicing that other part of Shia faith, Taqiyya which is something he failed to mention in his opinion piece.

[aboutime]

This thread has become the home of jafar and the endless.....4088

[Marcus Aurelius]

Misconception #1:
Shias have a different Quran. They add another 10 chapters to the original Quran.

Response: Not true. I have checked many times Quran kept in Shia homes and mosques. I still find it the same as the original Quran. More recently, I took care of an Iranian lady patient hospitalized here. I saw a copy of the Quran by her side. I borrowed it from her and browsed through cover to cover. In Arabic it was the same as our Quran. Of course, since I did not know the Persian language, I can't say much about the translation. It is a sin to even say that the Quran can be changed or added to by Shia when it is protected by God.

I never claimed that.

Misconception #2:
Some Shia consider Ali as God.

Response: Not true. It is disbelief to even think of such a thing. During the time of Ali, some pagan groups called Gholat did consider Ali as Lord. When he found out, they were burned to death. Alawis of Syria may have a similar belief, but they are non-Muslims, neither Shia nor Sunni.

I never claimed that either.

Misconception #3:
Shias have different declarations of faith and they add to the call to prescribed prayer.

Response: The declaration to become a Muslim, as administered to non-Muslims, is the same. Some Shia add to themselves, "Ali is a friend of God (S.A.W.) or Ali is a spiritual leader of God," after the call to prescribed prayer, but not as part of the call to prescribed prayer.

Watch this shahada (declaration of faith) from the Shia. Where they raise Ali (as) to almost Prophethood and proceed to insult the companions of the Prophet (saw) as I said before.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HslKeNB7pQM

Their Adhan (call to prayer) is different too and also calls Ali the "Vice-Regent" of God.

Shia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FulPwb_BmzM

Sunni

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUHDYlJHaOQ



Misconception #4:
Shias do not perform sunnah prayers. Sunnah prayers are non obligatory prayers performed by Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.).

Response: Shia do perform non-obligatory prayers, 36 cycles per day in total, but call it nawafil and not sunnah.

I didn't claim that, however they do pray the obligatory prayers in a completely different way to us.

Misconception #5:
Some Shia believe the Angel Gabriel made a mistake and prophethood was meant for Ali and not Muhammad (S.A.W.).

Response: Not true. No Shia thinks of such false claims. "Only demented minds think of such questions."

Actually I have heard this from some Shia too. However I don't believe it to be a widespread belief.

Misconception #6:
Shias slander and ridicule the first three caliphs (Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman) and Prophet Muhammad's wife, Ayisha.

Response: Shia consider the first three caliphs as great companions and good Muslim administrators, but not spiritual leaders (imams). Imam Jafar Sadiq, whose mother and grandmother came from the line of Abu Bakr, said of Abu Bakr, "He gave me birth twice." Ayisha is respected by Shias as the "Mother of Believers," as Ali respected her when he sent her back from Basra to Madinah after the Battle of the Camel. If some Shia do slander the three caliphs and Ayisha, they do it out of ignorance and should ask God's forgiveness.

See the first video for proof. Or this one (Shahada starts at 2:09)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS1t7-6BiI8

The good Doctor's defense is false.

Misconception # 7:
Shias combine all five prayers into one prayer in the evening.

Response: Not true. In Shia mosques, whether in Iran or the USA, all five daily prayers are performed. Some working Shia do combine noon and afternoon and evening and night, but Shia scholars recommend performing them separately. Such combinations may not be ideal, but better than not praying at all. How can a Sunni who does not pray at all be better than a Shia who combines prayers?

Prayers may be combined. They also may be shortened to 2 Rakats, but only while travelling.

Misconception # 8:
Shias do not pay zakat (poor-due).

Response: Not true. They not only pay 2.5% left over from savings as zakat, but also an additional 20% as khums or general charity. However, they prefer to pay directly to the needy rather than corrupt Sunni government.

I never claimed that.

Misconception #9:
Shias practice temporary marriages (mutah).

Response: Mutah (temporary marriages) was allowed during the time of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) and he himself practiced it. Ibn Zubayr was born out of the temporary marriage. Later on Caliph Umar prohibited it due to social reasons as the Islamic world was rapidly expanding. Shias discourage mutah but do not consider it prohibited. Some do abuse this. As a temporary privilege during travel, it is better than adultery.

He's actually trying to defend it?

Misconception #10:
They consider Imams infallible and above the prophets.

Response: Not true. All prophets are born Prophet but as mentioned in Quran about Abraham that after passing the test, a prophet becomes a leader (Imam). Imams are carriers of the message of Islam. Shias consider Ali only as an Imam, but Muhammad (S.A.W.) is the Prophet (nabi), Messenger (rasul) and leader (imam). With the little knowledge I have, I have tried to do my best as a Sunni in defending my Shia brothers in Islam with the hope and prayer to God Almighty that He will "instill love in the heart of the believers" and bring us closer to each other so that we jointly can fight our common enemy, Satan and his followers.

Check the following quote from Ayatullah Khomeini. Their Imams have "mastery of all the atoms of creation"?!? They "occupy a rank unattainable by either an angel or a Prophet"!?!


http://www.secondhandislam.co.uk/shia-imams.php

My best guess is the good Doctor is practicing that other part of Shia faith, Taqiyya which is something he failed to mention in his opinion piece.

your defense of your misguided opinion that Shia are not Muslim seems to be 'I never claimed that', as you used it for many of the misconceptions I listed.

I never CLAIMED you had any particular one of those misconceptions. The point of my post either sailed over your head, or, as usual, you're trying to deflect.

I posted them because they are typical misconceptions many people have that make them say Shia are not Muslim. The Islamic scholars posted here and in other posts have shown that to be incorrect.

You can guess about anything you like... doesn't make it correct.

The end result is that YOU claimed Shia are NOT Muslim... and the Shia, along with the vast majority of the world, claim they are.

I think I'll go with the majority.

[jafar00]

your defense of your misguided opinion that Shia are not Muslim seems to be 'I never claimed that', as you used it for many of the misconceptions I listed.

I never CLAIMED you had any particular one of those misconceptions. The point of my post either sailed over your head, or, as usual, you're trying to deflect.

I posted them because they are typical misconceptions many people have that make them say Shia are not Muslim. The Islamic scholars posted here and in other posts have shown that to be incorrect.

You can guess about anything you like... doesn't make it correct.

The end result is that YOU claimed Shia are NOT Muslim... and the Shia, along with the vast majority of the world, claim they are.

I think I'll go with the majority.

What vast majority? The ones who have no idea how different Shia'ism is to Islam?

I tried to explain some of it to you, but you refuse to listen.

[Marcus Aurelius]

What vast majority? The ones who have no idea how different Shia'ism is to Islam?

I tried to explain some of it to you, but you refuse to listen.

So, you know more than every Islamic scholar (actual Muslim scholars) that have been quoted here?

You're completely full of yourself... and full of shit as well.

[logroller]

Which is like someone from NY telling someone from Florida that they are not American. Whether you like it or not, the entire world considers Shia to be Islam. The ONLY people denying it are Sunni Muslims who have yet another enemy.
I think it's just like Protestant vs Catholic. Jafar's story a out different prayer routines is super similar; although I've never heard of a Catholic Church running off worshipers, or vice versa. I have met Protestants who actually believe Catholics aren't Christians though. Weird. :dunno:

[jafar00]

So, you know more than every Islamic scholar (actual Muslim scholars) that have been quoted here?

You're completely full of yourself... and full of shit as well.

What Islamic Scholars? You quoted Shia and some doctor with taqiyya disguised as an opinion.


Catholic Church running off worshipers, or vice versa.

Northern Ireland was split down Catholic/Protestant lines and it was quite violent at times.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDBjsFAyiwA

[Marcus Aurelius]

What Islamic Scholars? You quoted Shia and some doctor with taqiyya disguised as an opinion.



read the threads, dumb ass. Multiple Islamic scholars, including the Dr. I posted, say Shia are Muslim. You are offered proof, from multiple Islamic sources, and choose to remain willfully ignoratnt.

[Marcus Aurelius]

What Islamic Scholars? You quoted Shia and some doctor with taqiyya disguised as an opinion.

'Some doctor'??

His credentials vastly outweigh yours, which as far as we all know, are non-existent. I'll take his opinion over yours any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.


http://ias.org/portfolio/dr-shahid-athar/


Dr. Shahid Athar, MD, FACP, FACE, a U.S. citizen, was born in Patna, India and educated at Patna University and the University of Karachi, Pakistan. He did his medical residency at Cook County Hospital, Chicago and his Endocrinology fellowship at Indiana University School of Medicine, where he is a Clinical Associate Professor. He is an Endocrinologist in private practice in Indianapolis, on staff at St.Vincent Hospital. He is a fellow of the American College of Physicians and the American College of Endocrinology. He is an author of 7 books (including Islamic Perspectives in Medicine, Health Concerns for Believers and Healing the Wounds of 9/11) andmany published articles on medical and Islamic topics. He is a speaker on various topics including Islam, interfaith, spirituality and medical ethics. His affiliations include Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), Islamic Medical Association of North America (past president and former chair, medical ethics) and International Association of Sufism. He serves on the board of advisors for Protection of Consciousness Project, an international human rights organization. For his interfaith activities, the Indianapolis Medical Society in 2002 gave him the Gov. Otis Bowen Award for Community Service. He earned the St.Vincent Hospital Internal Medicine Residency Dept. “Teacher of the Year” award for 2001 and 2007, and the St. Vincent Distinguished Physician award in 2009. American College of Physicians (Indiana chapter) in 2007 gave him Laureate Physician award. In 2011, he earned the “Dr. Ahmed El-Kadi Award” for distinguished service to the Islamic Medical Association of North America.

[jimnyc]

I think it's just like Protestant vs Catholic. Jafar's story a out different prayer routines is super similar; although I've never heard of a Catholic Church running off worshipers, or vice versa. I have met Protestants who actually believe Catholics aren't Christians though. Weird. :dunno:

True, true, true. And the same would apply to them, you can't simply dismiss an entire group of people because they think/believe differently. Shia's ARE Muslims and the entire world recognizes them as such, just as a Christian is a Christian, even if they believe a little different, we don't get to just toss them aside because we feel they may make us look bad or just because we don't like them.

[jimnyc]

What Islamic Scholars?

Just like you dismissed the boatload of Islamic scholars I posted. It's hard to "debate" with someone who will just deny anything posted.

[jafar00]

True, true, true. And the same would apply to them, you can't simply dismiss an entire group of people because they think/believe differently. Shia's ARE Muslims and the entire world recognizes them as such, just as a Christian is a Christian, even if they believe a little different, we don't get to just toss them aside because we feel they may make us look bad or just because we don't like them.

Like Al Qaeda and the Taliban, Shia may CALL themselves Muslims, but by their practice they are not.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Like Al Qaeda and the Taliban, Shia may CALL themselves Muslims, but by their practice they are not.

Yes, by practice, they are Muslim. You dismiss them because they are not following YOUR practices 100%. We all dismiss you here, because you are simply pig headed, arrogant, and refuse to honestly debate anything that falls outside your personal comfort zone.

You're a pathetic poster, whose only reason for being here is to make yourself feel superior to others. You may be able to convince yourself you're somehow better than the rest of the world, but we see right through you.

[jimnyc]

Like Al Qaeda and the Taliban, Shia may CALL themselves Muslims, but by their practice they are not.

First off, Shia are nothing like terrorists, they just follow the religion differently. Someone is a Muslim if they follow the religion of Islam. Shia's feel differently about the way Sunni Muslims follow the religion too. They are from the same root, even if they branched out differently.

Another read on what makes someone a Muslim (and also states that Shia's are Muslims of course) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim

[Marcus Aurelius]

First off, Shia are nothing like terrorists, they just follow the religion differently. Someone is a Muslim if they follow the religion of Islam. Shia's feel differently about the way Sunni Muslims follow the religion too. They are from the same root, even if they branched out differently.

Another read on what makes someone a Muslim (and also states that Shia's are Muslims of course) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim

Isn't it interesting... Shia recognize Sunni as Muslims... followers of the prophet Mohammad... but Sunnis do not reciprocate. Tells you which side is more open-minded and tolerant of others, huh.

[jimnyc]

Isn't it interesting... Shia recognize Sunni as Muslims... followers of the prophet Mohammad... but Sunnis do not reciprocate. Tells you which side is more open-minded and tolerant of others, huh.

These sects will never respect and like one another, and with such an overwhelming majority being Sunni, they will likely always have an upper hand. But even if Shia somehow drop to .5% of the population, they are STILL Muslim, no matter how much someone would like to separate themselves from them. One would think "Sunni Muslim" and "Shia Muslim" would be enough, and that others realize they are not from the same sect, but not surprisingly others want them discounted or banned from the religion, which ain't happening.