PDA

View Full Version : Should he get the medal of honor?



jimnyc
12-12-2012, 03:37 PM
Or is Panetta right in not overturning the decision? Maybe the military folks can read between the lines better than myself?


Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta has denied the Navy’s request to give Sgt. Rafael Peralta the Medal of Honor, with the Pentagon telling the Marine hero’s family they were reluctant to overturn a previous secretary’s decision.

Peralta died in Fallujah, Iraq, in 2004 while smothering a grenade, saving the lives of the other marines in his squad. Those Marines said Peralta, who’d been shot in the head, scooped the grenade into himself to absorb the blast.

Icela Donald, Peralta’s sister, said the decision was a disappointment — compounded by the lack of a good reason. She said they were told one overriding factor was Mr. Panetta’s reluctance to overturn the decision of former Secretary Robert M. Gates, who had denied the request for the Medal of Honor four years ago.

“That right there just truly made it even worse,” she said. “It’s not that they don’t want to do the right thing, it’s that they don’t want to turn over someone else’s decision.”

A Pentagon spokeswoman didn’t immediately respond to a message seeking comment.

In denying the medal before, the Pentagon had questioned the reliability of eyewitnesses, who said Peralta scooped the grenade to him, but disagreed on details such as which hand he had used.

The Pentagon had also pointed to autopsy data that suggested he was likely dead, and probably blinded, from the gunshot to his head, which meant he could not have voluntarily scooped the grenade to him.

“There is no way to reconcile differences in forensic evidence and conflicting testimony of Marines involved,” the Pentagon report said, but it concluded that the forensic evidence created enough “margin of doubt” that the medal could not be issued.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/dec/12/panetta-denies-medal-honor-marine-dived-grenade/

Larrymc
12-12-2012, 03:57 PM
Or is Panetta right in not overturning the decision? Maybe the military folks can read between the lines better than myself?



http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/dec/12/panetta-denies-medal-honor-marine-dived-grenade/Surely they can determine weather or not he was over the grenade or not, if so the rest is BS

gabosaurus
12-12-2012, 04:02 PM
I don't understand why he was turned down for the MOH in the first place. Certainly there are witnesses to this heroic act.
A wounded soldier throwing himself on a grenade certainly fits the qualifications as I understand them.

Robert A Whit
12-12-2012, 04:21 PM
I dunno but I tend to think that Robert Gates would have loved to give the family a MOH. Probably he studied the combat report for many days prior to deciding there were questions not answered. MOH should only go to the person with the utmost valor and courage in combat.

Many heros I am told don't get any medal. What is not mentioned is if this marine got a medal of any sort? Having been in the Army during peace of course in no way makes me an expert on this thing. I admit over many years I have read the write ups for a lot of MOH winners.

Seems to me some got the MOH for about the same thing in various wars.

aboutime
12-12-2012, 06:52 PM
Sounds pretty disgusting to me. Hearing how some people sitting behind desks in the Safety of Washington DC, get to decide WHAT DEGREE, and WHICH HAND a MARINE used to protect his fellow Marines. Even to the point of questioning whether he was DECEASED...BEFORE the grenade WENT OFF????

Now. Would someone please tell me this.

How can a President who was in office LESS than half a year...Get a NOBEL PRIZE...and everyone celebrates, adores, and even makes him appear to be a MESSIAH. While an American in Uniform, and his family are told...HIS DEATH DURING BATTLE wasn't worthy of an Award??

This entire country, and the people running it are NOTHING BUT CRAP, AND FULL OF SHIT!

And I don't care WHO doesn't like it, or disagree's with it.

OUR NATION IS BECOMING LOWER THAN WHALE SHIT. And the people responsible are HAPPY to EAT SHIT!

fj1200
12-12-2012, 07:21 PM
Surely they can determine weather or not he was over the grenade or not, if so the rest is BS


I don't understand why he was turned down for the MOH in the first place. Certainly there are witnesses to this heroic act.
A wounded soldier throwing himself on a grenade certainly fits the qualifications as I understand them.

Did you two miss the last part?



“There is no way to reconcile differences in forensic evidence and conflicting testimony of Marines involved,” the Pentagon report said, but it concluded that the forensic evidence created enough “margin of doubt” that the medal could not be issued.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/dec/12/panetta-denies-medal-honor-marine-dived-grenade/


Sounds pretty disgusting to me. Hearing how some people sitting behind desks in the Safety of Washington DC, get to decide WHAT DEGREE, and WHICH HAND a MARINE used to protect his fellow Marines. Even to the point of questioning whether he was DECEASED...BEFORE the grenade WENT OFF????

Now. Would someone please tell me this.

How can a President who was in office LESS than half a year...Get a NOBEL PRIZE...and everyone celebrates, adores, and even makes him appear to be a MESSIAH. While an American in Uniform, and his family are told...HIS DEATH DURING BATTLE wasn't worthy of an Award??

This entire country, and the people running it are NOTHING BUT CRAP, AND FULL OF SHIT!

And I don't care WHO doesn't like it, or disagree's with it.

OUR NATION IS BECOMING LOWER THAN WHALE SHIT. And the people responsible are HAPPY to EAT SHIT!

What in thee F' are you talking about? Panetta is following precedent and not overturning a Bush appointee's decision.

Robert A Whit
12-12-2012, 07:21 PM
Surely they can determine weather or not he was over the grenade or not, if so the rest is BS




Sergeant Rafael Peralta (April 7, 1979–November 15, 2004) assigned to 1st Battalion (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/1st_Battalion_3rd_Marines), 3rd Marine Regiment (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/3rd_Marine_Regiment_(United_States)), 3rd Marine Division (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/3rd_Marine_Division_(United_States)), III Marine Expeditionary Force (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/III_Marine_Expeditionary_Force), Marine Corps Base Hawaii (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Marine_Corps_Base_Hawaii), was a United States Marine (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/United_States_Marine) killed in combat during Second Battle of Fallujah (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah) in the city of Fallujah (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Fallujah), Iraq (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Iraq). In September 2008, his family was notified that he was awarded the Navy Cross (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Navy_Cross), the second highest award a United States Marine can receive.[1] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-MCT_NC_20080917-1)


Hmmmmmm, Navy Cross.

aboutime
12-12-2012, 08:18 PM
did you two miss the last part?





What in thee f' are you talking about? Panetta is following precedent and not overturning a bush appointee's decision.


kma.

CSM
12-13-2012, 07:18 AM
Hmmmmmm, Navy Cross.

Awarding the MoH is a serious undertaking. Actions meriting such an award are so far above and beyond the normal human endeavor in war (as well they should be) that few are ever awarded the MoH. The Navy Cross is also a very high honor (the second highest one can receive). The fact that this particular serviceman was NOT awarded the MoH is NOT a denigration of his actions nor should it be viewed that way. The guy was a hero, plain and simple. Just as some feel desk jockeys in Washigton have no right to determine who receives what award, I have to point out that the families of military personnel are even less qualified to determine who receives what award. It is indeed tragic that a soldier has to sacrifice his life to receive an award; it is only natural that the soldier's family feel he deserves the highest honor a nation can bestow on a soldier; however, the fact is that not every soldier's death (whether through heroic action or not) merits the MoH.

As has been pointed out already, many heroes are never awarded ANYTHING for their actions. That does not diminish their selfless sacrifice or courage or anything else. That, my friends, is why combat veterans deserve your respect. You just do not KNOW what actions they have performed and the rows of ribbons on their chest don't always tell the whole story. That they were there at all speaks volumes. For those of you that despise all things military, you will NEVER understand but for those of us who have been there and done that it is very clear. My sympathies to this hero's family and friends. I am willing to bet that they would burn every medal and ribbon that soldier received to have him back in their loving arms (alive if not whole) including the MoH.

darin
12-13-2012, 08:05 AM
Awarding the MoH is a serious undertaking. Actions meriting such an award are so far above and beyond the normal human endeavor in war (as well they should be) that few are ever awarded the MoH. The Navy Cross is also a very high honor (the second highest one can receive). The fact that this particular serviceman was NOT awarded the MoH is NOT a denigration of his actions nor should it be viewed that way. The guy was a hero, plain and simple. Just as some feel desk jockeys in Washigton have no right to determine who receives what award, I have to point out that the families of military personnel are even less qualified to determine who receives what award. It is indeed tragic that a soldier has to sacrifice his life to receive an award; it is only natural that the soldier's family feel he deserves the highest honor a nation can bestow on a soldier; however, the fact is that not every soldier's death (whether through heroic action or not) merits the MoH.

As has been pointed out already, many heroes are never awarded ANYTHING for their actions. That does not diminish their selfless sacrifice or courage or anything else. That, my friends, is why combat veterans deserve your respect. You just do not KNOW what actions they have performed and the rows of ribbons on their chest don't always tell the whole story. That they were there at all speaks volumes. For those of you that despise all things military, you will NEVER understand but for those of us who have been there and done that it is very clear. My sympathies to this hero's family and friends. I am willing to bet that they would burn every medal and ribbon that soldier received to have him back in their loving arms (alive if not whole) including the MoH.

CSM - I'm tellin' ya...you bring amazing perspective. Very glad you replied.

CSM
12-13-2012, 08:19 AM
CSM - I'm tellin' ya...you bring amazing perspective. Very glad you replied.

Truthfully, I detest those circumstances when the media (or anyone else) tries to make a political statement over soemthing like this. I have served with MANY heroes whose actions were deserving of high honor and received zilch. That does not mean that anyone was at fault or that the actions did not happen. They were still heroes; they are or were unrecognized but heroes nonetheless. Any family that loses a loved one knows damn well that all the medals and ribons in the world will not replace the loved one lost. All in all, I bet every last one of them would rather have their loved one back and damn the honors.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
12-13-2012, 09:14 AM
CSM - I'm tellin' ya...you bring amazing perspective. Very glad you replied.

I had logged out to run a quick errand and came back started reading this thread
. DECIDED TO LOG BACK IN TO POST EXACTLY WHAT YOU JUST SAID ABOUT CSM'S BRILLIANT POST.
NOW I SAY BRAVO TO YOU BOTH FOR YOUR SERVICE AND YOUR INSIGHT. -TYR

SassyLady
12-13-2012, 02:49 PM
I think what should matter is if the soldiers that survived feel he went to extraordinary lengths to save their lives. Their input should weigh more than any forensic evidence.

CSM
12-13-2012, 03:00 PM
I think what should matter is if the soldiers that survived feel he went to extraordinary lengths to save their lives. Their input should weigh more than any forensic evidence.

Submissions and recommendations for any such type of award are indeed heavily reliant on witnesses and their input. Forensic evidence is also a consideration and does have an impact to some extent. I know that sometimes an individual is recommended for an award/ribbon/medal and, as it goes throught the chain of command, it gets upgraded/downgraded or dismissed at some review level. It is a double edged sword as the review process can be somewhat subjective (dependent upon the reviewer) but on the other hand it does help prevent a bunch of soldiers from fabricating a circumstance in which someone gets an award for something they really did not do. Overall, it is my opinion that the process is fair far more often than not. There are exceptions of course, where someone gets bestowed an honor which some may consider the individual unworthy and conversely where an individual does not receive that which he is surely due but that is rare. Like I stated earlier, the rows of medals and ribbons don't always tell the full story.

Larrymc
12-13-2012, 03:09 PM
Did you two miss the last part?





What in thee F' are you talking about? Panetta is following precedent and not overturning a Bush appointee's decision.what could forensic not determine, which hand he used, or if he was blind, like i said surly they could tell if he covered a grenade

Robert A Whit
12-13-2012, 03:15 PM
Awarding the MoH is a serious undertaking. Actions meriting such an award are so far above and beyond the normal human endeavor in war (as well they should be) that few are ever awarded the MoH. The Navy Cross is also a very high honor (the second highest one can receive). The fact that this particular serviceman was NOT awarded the MoH is NOT a denigration of his actions nor should it be viewed that way. The guy was a hero, plain and simple. Just as some feel desk jockeys in Washigton have no right to determine who receives what award, I have to point out that the families of military personnel are even less qualified to determine who receives what award. It is indeed tragic that a soldier has to sacrifice his life to receive an award; it is only natural that the soldier's family feel he deserves the highest honor a nation can bestow on a soldier; however, the fact is that not every soldier's death (whether through heroic action or not) merits the MoH.

As has been pointed out already, many heroes are never awarded ANYTHING for their actions. That does not diminish their selfless sacrifice or courage or anything else. That, my friends, is why combat veterans deserve your respect. You just do not KNOW what actions they have performed and the rows of ribbons on their chest don't always tell the whole story. That they were there at all speaks volumes. For those of you that despise all things military, you will NEVER understand but for those of us who have been there and done that it is very clear. My sympathies to this hero's family and friends. I am willing to bet that they would burn every medal and ribbon that soldier received to have him back in their loving arms (alive if not whole) including the MoH.

I am very happy that when I was in the Army, President Kennedy never ordered my division to go to any war. The Division I served in, (3rd Infantry Division) had participated in a lot of hard fighting prior to my service and indeed fought valiantly after my discharge, in places like Iraq. They probably served in Vietnam, though I have not checked. Still, in Germany, some Division had to be there in case the Soviets invaded via the Fulda Gap. We expected an attack from that area since the Soviets had massed tens of thousands of tanks.

I fully agree with CSM and he said it far better than I could have said it.

CSM
12-13-2012, 03:20 PM
I am very happy that when I was in the Army, President Kennedy never ordered my division to go to any war. The Division I served in, (3rd Infantry Division) had participated in a lot of hard fighting prior to my service and indeed fought valiantly after my discharge, in places like Iraq. They probably served in Vietnam, though I have not checked. Still, in Germany, some Division had to be there in case the Soviets invaded via the Fulda Gap. We expected an attack from that area since the Soviets had massed tens of thousands of tanks.

I fully agree with CSM and he said it far better than I could have said it.

"The Rock of the Marne" was indeed in Vietnam. Coincidently, one of the places I was stationed during my career was the Fulda Gap (Fulda and Bad Hersfeld). While there, I viewed myself as one of the "sacrificial lambs" that the public would read about when the Soviet armored divisions overran Europe; cannon fodder, if you will.

Robert A Whit
12-13-2012, 03:48 PM
"The Rock of the Marne" was indeed in Vietnam. Coincidently, one of the places I was stationed during my career was the Fulda Gap (Fulda and Bad Hersfeld). While there, I viewed myself as one of the "sacrificial lambs" that the public would read about when the Soviet armored divisions overran Europe; cannon fodder, if you will.

Wikipedia makes no mention of the 3rd ID fighting in Vietham so i next go to the 3rd ID records.

When I was in Germany, MG Frank Mildren commanded the division. I think he retired upon leaving Europe. His HQ was then in Wurzburg while I was based in Schoweinfurt. Schweinfurt was leveled during WWII for the most part I was told. Few but those who served in Germany during the Soviet era can understand the fear they would invade via the Fulda Gap. We estimated in Schoweinfurt, we might last half an hour should the Soviets use nukes.

During Vietnam, a lot of people ignored the service of men in Germany but those men may have prevented WWIII. I noticed when I was in Germany that the Air Force often flew to our base with mock attacks. We had many alerts. We had missiles on our base and I understand they took aim on our air force aircraft.

When President Kennedy was assassinated, we stayed on full alert for some days. We had arms on us at all times. I was issued a .45 cal pistol given I was then at the Schweinfurt Army Airfield and my rifle was back at the HQ company that I was actually assigned to. The Col called me in one day and wanted me to leave my HQ and help the pilots at the Air Field.

Some talk was that we might get an invasion by the Soviets due to his death.

Robert A Whit
12-13-2012, 04:05 PM
From 3rd ID records. By the way, I served in 30th Infantry which did a ton of fighting.
Records follow

===========================

The 3rd Infantry Division has one of the most successful combat records of any U.S. Army division. It has paid a high price for this distinction, suffering nearly 35,000 wartime casualties.

Fifty-one members of the 3rd Infantry Division have been awarded the Medal of Honor while serving our nation.

World War I (1914-1918)
The Third Division was born at Camp Green, North Carolina on November 21, 1917. The U.S. had been at war with Imperial Germany and allies since April 6, 1917. The 3rd Division was composed of the 4th, 7th, 30th, and 38th Infantry Regiments, the 10th, 18th, and 76th Field Artilleries, and the 6th Engineers, with a total of 28,000 men. The Division arrived in France in April 1918 at the beginning of the last series of German offensives designed to end the war. By May of 1918 the French had been pushed back to within 50 miles of Paris. The 7th Machine Gun Battalion of the 3rd Division rushed to Chateau-Thierry amid retreating French troops and held the Germans back at the Marne River. The rest of the division was absorbed by the French Command until brought back together under the Command of Gen. Joseph Dickman and by July 15, 1918 they took the brunt of what was to be the last German offensive of the war. As units on either side of the division were driven back, men of the 30th and 38th Infantry Regiments held their positions at the Marne River, defeating the German bid for Paris. For this the division earned the nickname, "Rock of the Marne."

World War II (1941-1945)
The 3rd Division was redesignated the 3rd Infantry Division in 1941. It was the only division to fight Germany on all fronts in WWII. Their days in combat numbered 531. The division entered the war in Fedala, North Africa, just north of Casablanca, as part of the first American campaign against the Nazi threat in the Torch Invasion. They moved across Morocco to Tunisia and embarked for Sicily. The 3rd Infantry Division arrived in Italy on September 18, 1943, then detached for the amphibious operation designed to break the stalemate in the Italian campaign at Anzio. They landed at Anzio on January 22, 1944. Hitler wanted the Anzio beachhead eliminated. From January to May, the Germans launched attacks in an effort to drive the Allies from the beach. Just as they were at the Marne River in World War I, the 3rd Infantry Division proved to be an unmovable rock of resistance. By May the Allies broke the German hold and reached Rome by June 4, 1944. The division was called to another amphibious assault invading Southern France in August of 1944, then up the Rhone River to join other American units in northeastern France and into Germany capturing Hitler's mountain retreat, Berchtesgaden. The division ended the war in Salzburg, Austria on May 6, 1945.

Korean War (1950-1953)
When North Korea invaded the border of South Korea in 1950, the 3rd Infantry Division was one of ten active divisions in the U.S. Army. Manpower shortages resulted in the 30th Infantry Regiment and the 41st Field Artillery loaned out to replace members of other units. The 3rd Infantry Division was brought up to strength with Republic of Korea replacements and the addition of the "Borinqueneers", the 65th Infantry Regiment from Puerto Rico. The division arrived in Korea in September 1950 and joined in the operations in the Hamhung-Hungnam area. On November 23, 1950 China entered the war and the massive strength of the Chinese Army was felt all along the front. The Allies were forced to retreat. From November 30 to December 24, the 3rd Infantry conducted the most massive beachhead evacuation in American military history: 105,000 troops, 100,000 refugees, 17,500 vehicles, and 750,000 tons of cargo. By 1951, elements of the 3rd ID helped recapture Seoul, the Korean capital, and the Chinese were pushed back to the 38th Parallel. As the Chinese tried to recapture the capital, the brunt of the attack fell on the 3rd Infantry Division's sector and the Marne division became the "Rock of Seoul." Again the Chinese were driven back to the 38th Parallel and the 3rd Infantry Division settled into front-line duty, defending all attempts by the Chinese to seize strategic positions. The war ended in July 1953 and by October 1954 the division returned to Ft. Benning, Georgia.

To see the names of the 2,220 Fallen Heroes of the Marne Divsion from the Korean War click here (http://www.debatepolicy.com/docs/Korea.pdf)

Cold War (1947-1991)
From 1958 to 1996, the 3rd Infantry Division was stationed in Germany as part of the main defense protecting Western Europe from the threat of attack by Warsaw Pact Nations headed by the Soviet Union. The division remained on constant alert as the arms race continued.

Persian Gulf War (1991)
On August 2, 1990, Iraq invaded Kuwait and a request for help resulted in a large deployment of troops and equipment known as Desert Shield. A Nuclear Biological Chemical Reconnaissance Platoon from the 3rd ID's 92nd Chemical Co., units of the 3rd Brigade and supporting units were attached to the 1st Armored Division in Saudi Arabia. The 6th Battalion of the 41st Field Artillery Brigade joined the 210th Field Artillery, of the VII Corps when the 100-hour storm through Iraq began on January 16, 1991. The war was over by February 28. The 3rd Brigade of the 3rd ID had destroyed 105 enemy tanks, 70 enemy armored personnel carriers, 92 enemy trucks, 4 enemy artillery pieces and captured 836 prisoners.

Operation Iraqi Freedom (2003-Present)
SURGE HISTORY BOOK (http://www.debatepolicy.com/docs/HistoryBookFinalRev.pdf)
On March 19, 2003, President Bush announced orders to begin the operation to free the Iraqi people from the tyrannical ruler, Saddam Hussein. The next day elements of the 3rd ID (Mechanized) moved to the Iraqi border. By April 3, the 3rd Infantry Division entered Saddam International Airport and by the next day it was renamed the Baghdad International Airport. On April 5, the 3rd ID stunned the world with television images of tanks and Bradley Fighting Vehicles storming the streets of Baghdad in a probing action known as the first of two "Thunder Runs." The second Thunder Run moved the 2nd Brigade Combat Team into the government center of Baghdad. A decision to stay inside the city created a need for fuel and supplies. Division logistic personnel mounted an effort to resupply the 2nd BCT in the hostile streets of Baghdad as they held the foothold on the banks of the Tigris River, reminiscent of the Division's historic stand at the Marne River during World War I. As the 3rd ID expanded and tightened control of Baghdad and the 1st Marine Expeditionary Unit choked off Iraqi resistance on the east side of the city, Iraqi resistance crumbled. The division returned to Ft. Stewart in August 2003 and by 2004 was selected as the first division in the Army to be organized under the new modular system. In January 2005, the division returned to Iraq and led U.S. and coalition forces in Baghdad. The 1st and 3rd Brigades of the division supported the 42nd Division in Northern Iraq. The hard work created conditions for a secure Iraqi election and transfer of power to the first democratically elected national government in Iraq. The Division served with its coalition partners during Operation Iraqi Freedom III for a year before returning to Georgia in January 2006.

On its return to the United States in 2006, the Third Infantry Division completed its reorganization to the new modular system for infantry divisions and began to prepare for redeployment to Iraq for Operation Iraqi Freedom V. In January 2007 the 1st Brigade Combat Team deployed to Multinational Forces Iraq-West (MNF-W) in Anbar Province under the command of the 1st Marine Division. It was the first brigade in the Army to serve in Iraq three times. The Brigade's area of operations was in central Anbar, primarily in and around Ramadi, the provincial capital. No other brigade in Iraq covered a larger area. The 1st BCT conducted nine brigade-level operations and transformed Ramadi from the second deadliest city in Iraq to its quietest in six weeks; the city had nearly 300 violence-free days during the Brigade's deployment, due to its friendship with the area tribes in the Anbar Awakening, mentorship of the Ramadi municipal government and partnership with Iraqi police and army.

In March 2007 the rest of the Division, except the 4th Brigade Combat Team, prepared to deploy to Iraq early as part of the "surge" in troops ordered by President Bush in January. The 3rd ID became the first complete division to serve in Iraq three times. As they deployed, the Pentagon announced the extension of the tours of active duty units in Iraq from twelve to fifteen months. The 3rd ID units, therefore, served in both OIF V (2007) and OIF VI (2008). On April 4 the Third Infantry Division Headquarters took command of Multinational Forces Iraq-Center (MNF-C) and became known as Task Force Marne. During its fifteen months in Iraq it commanded not only 3rd ID units but also the 2nd BCT, 10th Mountain Division, 4th BCT, 25th Infantry Division, 3rd BCT, 101st Airborne Division, and troops from Georgia, El Salvador, Kazakhstan, and Lithuania. The 3rd Brigade Combat Team deployed MNF-C in March-April, followed by the 2nd Brigade Combat Team in May and the 4th Brigade Combat Team in October. Together they secured an area south of Baghdad as large as West Virginia from east of the Tigris River to west of the Euphrates River in land that had once been a stronghold for Al Qaida and other insurgent groups. They lived among and worked with concerned Iraqi citizens and soldiers in more than a dozen operations, first to fight the insurgents, deny them sanctuaries and prevent the use of the former sanctuaries as staging areas for attacks on Baghdad. Having created security, they then worked to rebuild governmental and economic capacity. The Division Headquarters and all the brigades, except the 4th Brigade, returned to Fort Stewart, Fort Benning, and Hunter Army Airfield from April-July. The 1st Brigade returned to Fort Stewart in April 2008. Headquarters and the remaining brigades, except the 4th Brigade, returned to Fort Stewart, Fort Benning, and Hunter Army Airfield from May-July. The 4th Brigade returned to Fort Stewart in December 2008.
Beginning October 1, 2007 the 1st Brigade Combat Team trained as part of CCMRF, the U.S. Northern Command's Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear, and high-yield Explosive Consequence Management Response Force. The CCMRF mission was successfully conducted by the 1st Brigade for one year when they shifted their focus and began training again for deployment to Iraq. In March 2009 the 4th Brigade Combat Team transitioned from a heavy brigade combat team with armor and mechanized infantry units to an infantry brigade combat team with wheeled vehicles. In the process it lost the 4th Battalion, 64th Armor and gained the 3rd Battalion, 15th Infantry.
In the fall 2009 the 3rd Infantry Division Headquarters, the 2nd Heavy Brigade Combat Team (2HBCT), and 3rd Heavy Brigade Combat Team (3HBCT) deployed to Iraq for their fourth tour in that country. The Division Headquarters, whose personnel make up the Division Headquarters and Headquarters Battalion (DHHB), and Spartan (2HBCT) Brigade Soldiers established themselves in United States Division-North in Northern Iraq with the Task Force Marne Headquarters positioned in Tikrit and 2HBCT in Mosul. During the time Task Force Marne served in Iraq in this most recent deployment, its ranks were filled with various brigades from 1st Cavalry Division, 1st Armored Division, 1st Infantry Division, 25th Infantry Division, and 130th Engineer Brigade in addition to the Spartan Brigade. Sledgehammer (3HBCT) found its way to USD-South where it assumed duties with Task Force Ready, 1st Infantry Division. Soon afterward, the 3rd Combat Aviation Brigade (3rd CAB) left Hunter Army Airfield for service in Afghanistan as Task Force Falcon, assuming those duties in December 2009. By January 2010, 1st Heavy Brigade Combat Team (1HBCT) picked up from Fort Stewart and arrived in Iraq for their fourth deployment in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. This time around they fell under the leadership of the 1st Armored Division, Task Force Iron in United States Division-Center, Baghdad. By May 2010, the 3rd Sustainment Brigade (3SB) began operations providing area sustainment support to units throughout Baghdad and N. Iraq. In July 2010, the 4th Infantry Brigade Combat Team (4IBCT) joins the rest of the division's brigades in Iraq by assuming duties in Anbar Province, west of Baghdad. With their arrival, the Marne Division will have elements operating in every area of Iraq, North, Center, and South as the mission changes from Operation Iraqi Freedom to Operation New Dawn on 1 September 2010 where the focus will shift from combat operations to stability operations throughout all Iraq’s provinces.
To see the 447 Fallen Heroes of the Marne Division from Iraq/Afghanistan click here (http://www.stewart.army.mil/warrWalk/default.asp)

CSM
12-13-2012, 04:27 PM
Wikipedia makes no mention of the 3rd ID fighting in Vietham so i next go to the 3rd ID records.

When I was in Germany, MG Frank Mildren commanded the division. I think he retired upon leaving Europe. His HQ was then in Wurzburg while I was based in Schoweinfurt. Schweinfurt was leveled during WWII for the most part I was told. Few but those who served in Germany during the Soviet era can understand the fear they would invade via the Fulda Gap. We estimated in Schoweinfurt, we might last half an hour should the Soviets use nukes.

During Vietnam, a lot of people ignored the service of men in Germany but those men may have prevented WWIII. I noticed when I was in Germany that the Air Force often flew to our base with mock attacks. We had many alerts. We had missiles on our base and I understand they took aim on our air force aircraft.

When President Kennedy was assassinated, we stayed on full alert for some days. We had arms on us at all times. I was issued a .45 cal pistol given I was then at the Schweinfurt Army Airfield and my rifle was back at the HQ company that I was actually assigned to. The Col called me in one day and wanted me to leave my HQ and help the pilots at the Air Field.

Some talk was that we might get an invasion by the Soviets due to his death.

I stand corrected. For some reason I was thinking 4th ID. I'm old and sometimes the synapses just don't fire correctly. It appears you were in Germany some years before I was assigned there. I also agree that the contributions of units stationed in Germany whilst Vietnam was going on have been for the most part ignored, though, as you say, they probably prevented WWIII.

Robert A Whit
12-13-2012, 04:36 PM
I stand corrected. For some reason I was thinking 4th ID. I'm old and sometimes the synapses just don't fire correctly. It appears you were in Germany some years before I was assigned there. I also agree that the contributions of units stationed in Germany whilst Vietnam was going on have been for the most part ignored, though, as you say, they probably prevented WWIII.

You are old? I am 74. :laugh: I was sent to Germany in October 62 and remained there until the end of January 1964. I have been mocked by posters on AOL over being in Germany during that period. They never appreciated what a war with the Soviets would be like but for the defenders in Germany that remained there even during Vietnam.

While the detractors for the most part were Democrats, they had no clue how serious the military took a possible invasion by the Soviets. :thumb:

CSM
12-13-2012, 04:40 PM
You are old? I am 74. :laugh: I was sent to Germany in October 62 and remained there until the end of January 1964. I have been mocked by posters on AOL over being in Germany during that period. They never appreciated what a war with the Soviets would be like but for the defenders in Germany that remained there even during Vietnam.

While the detractors for the most part were Democrats, they had no clue how serious the military took a possible invasion by the Soviets. :thumb:

Well!!! It appears that I have been officially ousted as "the old guy" of this forum! I think that warrants a "thank you" from me.

I believe that within military circles the mistake has been corrected as there is now a ribbon for Cold War service, regardless of where one served. Not that it means much but you can add that to your list of awards!

By the way, you are 12 years older than I am.

Robert A Whit
12-13-2012, 08:53 PM
Well!!! It appears that I have been officially ousted as "the old guy" of this forum! I think that warrants a "thank you" from me.

I believe that within military circles the mistake has been corrected as there is now a ribbon for Cold War service, regardless of where one served. Not that it means much but you can add that to your list of awards!

By the way, you are 12 years older than I am.

Thanks. However, when i left the Army, I looked forward to getting my job back and once again making somr real money doing work I really liked.

I took the military stuff I was allowed to keep and turned them in to the local military used merchandise store. I may have got some cash for the stuff. I can't really remember.

I think I made a mistake. Had I gone to OCS and stayed 20 years, the retirement would really have been good to me.

One day at the Air field, a pilot came in upon landing. He stood against the door frame and I had no clue of his rank. I don't recall the entire discussion he had with me but once he learned I had construction experience over about 7 years, and had at one point planned to go to OCS, since I had qualified to be entered there, he made me an offer. He wanted me to go to OCS and he said he would request I be sent to his unit.

When he moved away from the door, I saw the stars on his shoulder. And I was gabbing with a General. He sure was laid back and cool to talk to. I can't recall even saying Sir to him until the stars showed up.

I suppose he could have done what he said.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
12-13-2012, 09:46 PM
"The Rock of the Marne" was indeed in Vietnam. Coincidently, one of the places I was stationed during my career was the Fulda Gap (Fulda and Bad Hersfeld). While there, I viewed myself as one of the "sacrificial lambs" that the public would read about when the Soviet armored divisions overran Europe; cannon fodder, if you will.

Both my older brothers served military time in Germany. Oldest brother was there from 1966 to 1968, next to oldest brother was there from 1967 to 1969 only coming home for my dad's funeral. Then flying back. He has said that was the worst trip of his life. No joy to be coming home under such circumstances and certainly no joy leaving family, my mother and many very young siblings when leaving to go back..
Both have pretty much stated the same thing you guys have about being sacrificial lambs in the "fit hits the shan"..
Both didnt like it but said some poor bastards have to be there ! Both also said, it was a better option than seeing the lush countryside on a vacation in Vietnam curtesy of Uncle Sam. Both agreed the german women were great! I take it to indicate that they meant the ones that accepted cash gifts from the GI'S REGULARLY.-:laugh2:-Tyr

aboutime
12-13-2012, 10:08 PM
As a 30 year Navy veteran of both Vietnam and the First Gulf war, with many little skirmishes in between. I wasn't aware that jimnyc had created a CONTEST here that pitted Veterans against Veterans...all claiming to have either the BIGGEST, or MOST, or whatever else anyone can present we used to call BRAGGING.

Why did this thread about a Fallen Marine who gave his life in saving others, become a tribute that would most fittingly be presented on VETERANS day, or MEMORIAL Day???

Robert A Whit
12-13-2012, 11:29 PM
Both my older brothers served military time in Germany. Oldest brother was there from 1966 to 1968, next to oldest brother was there from 1967 to 1969 only coming home for my dad's funeral. Then flying back. He has said that was the worst trip of his life. No joy to be coming home under such circumstances and certainly no joy leaving family, my mother and many very young siblings when leaving to go back..
Both have pretty much stated the same thing you guys have about being sacrificial lambs in the "fit hits the shan"..
Both didnt like it but said some poor bastards have to be there ! Both also said, it was a better option than seeing the lush countryside on a vacation in Vietnam curtesy of Uncle Sam. Both agreed the german women were great! I take it to indicate that they meant the ones that accepted cash gifts from the GI'S REGULARLY.-:laugh2:-Tyr

I wanted no part of going to Korea. Bad memories of my uncle dying there.

My unit was what was called then, a STRIKE unit. I was told it was meant to say we were front line and had to be on constant alert. To prove we met alert standards, alerts were called at any time of the day or week. This meant that the entier unit had to rush to a meeting point away from the Base and be redy for combat.

Oh the girls. If you wanted a good girl, those were harder to find. As to paying them, never had to.

Kathianne
12-13-2012, 11:35 PM
Hey, Vets old and young, I applaud your service. Do any of you have a problem getting on topic of this deceased vet and his service being worthy or not of a MOH?

Robert A Whit
12-13-2012, 11:53 PM
As a 30 year Navy veteran of both Vietnam and the First Gulf war, with many little skirmishes in between. I wasn't aware that jimnyc had created a CONTEST here that pitted Veterans against Veterans...all claiming to have either the BIGGEST, or MOST, or whatever else anyone can present we used to call BRAGGING.

Why did this thread about a Fallen Marine who gave his life in saving others, become a tribute that would most fittingly be presented on VETERANS day, or MEMORIAL Day???

If you want to call a conversation bragging, so be it. So, brag away. Nobody is stopping you.

Robert A Whit
12-13-2012, 11:58 PM
Hey, Vets old and young, I applaud your service. Do any of you have a problem getting on topic of this deceased vet and his service being worthy or not of a MOH?



Thank you.

No PUN intended but CSM and myself beat that topic to death. We said all that can be said.

Carry on. Please chat up the board on this topic.

darin
12-14-2012, 06:04 AM
As a 30 year Navy veteran of both Vietnam and the First Gulf war, with many little skirmishes in between. I wasn't aware that jimnyc had created a CONTEST here that pitted Veterans against Veterans...all claiming to have either the BIGGEST, or MOST, or whatever else anyone can present we used to call BRAGGING.

Why did this thread about a Fallen Marine who gave his life in saving others, become a tribute that would most fittingly be presented on VETERANS day, or MEMORIAL Day???

Somebody should call the 'over reaction' police on you :)

CSM
12-14-2012, 06:18 AM
My apologies to those who feel the thread got hijacked. Us old guys tend to wander in our conversations. That being said, I fail to see where a discussion between us old timers prevented anyone from commenting about the original topic.

logroller
12-14-2012, 07:02 AM
The MOH is subject to political process; go figure, it gets it wrong sometimes. But whether or not he deserves it seems moot-- He, nor his family, needs a medal to convey his honor. I'm sure they received a flag he gave his life in defense of-- and I'm confident any living MOH would agree there's no higher honor bestowed than that.

CSM
12-14-2012, 07:38 AM
The MOH is subject to political process; go figure, it gets it wrong sometimes. But whether or not he deserves it seems moot-- He, nor his family, needs a medal to convey his honor. I'm sure they received a flag he gave his life in defense of-- and I'm confident any living MOH would agree there's no higher honor bestowed than that.

The process is not so much political as it is bureaucratic (like a lot of other processes within the military); the requirements are very stringent and pretty clearly defined as well. I don't know if any hero "needs" a medal but I think it is a pretty darned good idea for the government (if not the people) of this nation express some form of gratitude for those who make the "ultimate sacrifice" while trying to defend the country. I know, I know .... there are some who feel that those soldiers, airmen and Marines who give their life and/or limb while in the military knew what they were getting into and should receive nothing for doing what they were hired to do.

fj1200
12-14-2012, 09:13 AM
what could forensic not determine, which hand he used, or if he was blind, like i said surly they could tell if he covered a grenade

I point you to the other forensic issues as already presented.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
12-14-2012, 09:19 AM
The MOH is subject to political process; go figure, it gets it wrong sometimes. But whether or not he deserves it seems moot-- He, nor his family, needs a medal to convey his honor. I'm sure they received a flag he gave his life in defense of-- and I'm confident any living MOH would agree there's no higher honor bestowed than that.

^^^^^^^^ Bravo--:beer:.
No doubt of the man's honor and bravery should exist. Myself, I believe he should have gotten the MOH.--TYR

Abbey Marie
12-14-2012, 10:53 AM
Truthfully, I detest those circumstances when the media (or anyone else) tries to make a political statement over soemthing like this. I have served with MANY heroes whose actions were deserving of high honor and received zilch. That does not mean that anyone was at fault or that the actions did not happen. They were still heroes; they are or were unrecognized but heroes nonetheless. Any family that loses a loved one knows damn well that all the medals and ribons in the world will not replace the loved one lost. All in all, I bet every last one of them would rather have their loved one back and damn the honors.

I highly doubt these family members are saying they prefer a medal over the return of their loved one. The fact is, they cannot have their loved one back. Given that reality, it appears it would comfort them in some measure to know that his sacrifice was recognized in the way our country has decided it can best do so.

I agree on the whole with Sassy. Use the preponderance of eye witness evidence, and make a decision based on that. I don't see the need for removing a shadow of a doubt; this isn't a murder trial.

CSM
12-14-2012, 11:51 AM
I highly doubt these family members are saying they prefer a medal over the return of their loved one. The fact is, they cannot have their loved one back. Given that reality, it appears it would comfort them in some measure to know that his sacrifice was recognized in the way our country has decided it can best do so.

I agree on the whole with Sassy. Use the preponderance of eye witness evidence, and make a decision based on that. I don't see the need for removing a shadow of a doubt; this isn't a murder trial.

I did not mean to imply that the family preferred medals over the return of their loved one. I would also point out that there has been honor and recognition given (pretty darned high recognition ... Navy Cross). You may not agree with the process or requirements used in deciding worthiness for the MoH but it is the process and requirement in place currently. On a side note, if every death qualified for the MoH, it would diminish the significance of the MoH. That does not mean that each death is not significant, either. As I stated earlier, just because the MoH was not awarded in this particular case does not mean the person was not a hero nor does it diminish the heroic actions he displayed.

As for the process used, by all means, make your feelings known to your Congressional delegates if you think they are unfair, too stringent, etc. The MoH is presented by the President in the name of Congress. Congress sets the criteria (not the military!) though the submissions are reviewed by the chain of command before being submitted to Congress.

CSM
12-14-2012, 12:16 PM
For those who do not know or are uncertain about exactly what the criteria for the Medal of Honor is:

"The President, in the name of Congress, awards the Medal of Honor to the individual who, while as an active member of the Army, distinguishes himself or herself conspicuously, at the risk of his or her life above and beyond the call of duty, by courage and intrepidity. The act justifying award of the medal must be performed while fighting an enemy of the United States, or while involved in conflict with an opposing/foreign force or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in combat against an opposing military in which the United States is not a belligerent party. The act or acts of heroism must have required a risk of life and the individual have displayed personal bravery or self-sacrifice so extraordinary as to set the individual apart from his or her comrades. Incontestable proof of the act will be required and each recommendation for the Medal of Honor is considered on the standard of extraordinary merit."

Please note the last sentence. Here are the entitlements associated with the Medal of Honor:



A monthly $1,000 pension from the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)
A 10-percent increase in retired pay, not to exceed the 75 percent maximum, for enlisted recipients who retire with 20 or more years of Military Service,
A special MOH Travel and Identification Card signed by the Secretary of the Army. This entitles recipients who are not on active duty and not military retirees to utilize space-available military air transportation.
Wearing their uniforms at any time or place they choose, unlike other military personnel or retirees.
An issued DOD identification card, as are their family members, for recipients who are not on active duty and military retirees. It authorizes them military commissary, Post Exchange, and theater privileges. All of the services, consistent with DOD policy, authorize use of morale, welfare, and recreation activities, including honorary club membership without dues.
Children of Medal of Honor recipients are not subject to quotas if they are qualified and desire to attend the U.S. military academies.
Receiving invitations to attend Presidential inaugurations and accompanying festivities. Military recipients and those who are civil servants have traditionally been authorized administrative absence instead of chargeable leave to attend.
A special engraved headstone for deceased recipients of the Medal of Honor provided by VA
Should be accorded on base billeting commensurate with the prestige associated with the Medal of Honor.


One more time: The fact that the MoH was not presented in this particular case does not diminish in any way the heroic act of the individual; the fact that some (perhaps many) believe the MoH should have been awarded and publicly stated such does not imply they prefer the honor in place of the deceased.

The Medal of Honor was first made by law in July of 1862.

Robert A Whit
12-14-2012, 12:20 PM
My apologies to those who feel the thread got hijacked. Us old guys tend to wander in our conversations. That being said, I fail to see where a discussion between us old timers prevented anyone from commenting about the original topic.

I think we talked that subject to death. And it was our honor to remark. And no, we don't want any medal.

Any person wishing to keep talking about the MOH, be my guest.

Robert A Whit
12-14-2012, 12:41 PM
For those who do not know or are uncertain about exactly what the criteria for the Medal of Honor is:

"The President, in the name of Congress, awards the Medal of Honor to the individual who, while as an active member of the Army, distinguishes himself or herself conspicuously, at the risk of his or her life above and beyond the call of duty, by courage and intrepidity. The act justifying award of the medal must be performed while fighting an enemy of the United States, or while involved in conflict with an opposing/foreign force or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in combat against an opposing military in which the United States is not a belligerent party. The act or acts of heroism must have required a risk of life and the individual have displayed personal bravery or self-sacrifice so extraordinary as to set the individual apart from his or her comrades. Incontestable proof of the act will be required and each recommendation for the Medal of Honor is considered on the standard of extraordinary merit."

Please note the last sentence. Here are the entitlements associated with the Medal of Honor:



A monthly $1,000 pension from the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)
A 10-percent increase in retired pay, not to exceed the 75 percent maximum, for enlisted recipients who retire with 20 or more years of Military Service,
A special MOH Travel and Identification Card signed by the Secretary of the Army. This entitles recipients who are not on active duty and not military retirees to utilize space-available military air transportation.
Wearing their uniforms at any time or place they choose, unlike other military personnel or retirees.
An issued DOD identification card, as are their family members, for recipients who are not on active duty and military retirees. It authorizes them military commissary, Post Exchange, and theater privileges. All of the services, consistent with DOD policy, authorize use of morale, welfare, and recreation activities, including honorary club membership without dues.
Children of Medal of Honor recipients are not subject to quotas if they are qualified and desire to attend the U.S. military academies.
Receiving invitations to attend Presidential inaugurations and accompanying festivities. Military recipients and those who are civil servants have traditionally been authorized administrative absence instead of chargeable leave to attend.
A special engraved headstone for deceased recipients of the Medal of Honor provided by VA
Should be accorded on base billeting commensurate with the prestige associated with the Medal of Honor.


One more time: The fact that the MoH was not presented in this particular case does not diminish in any way the heroic act of the individual; the fact that some (perhaps many) believe the MoH should have been awarded and publicly stated such does not imply they prefer the honor in place of the deceased.

The Medal of Honor was first made by law in July of 1862.

Such honors, using such standards, depend on the circumstances of the action.

This soldier is not asking to be awarded the MOH. It is his family.

But take a better look at the benefits should THEY win. The monthly payment would do no good to the dead soldier so I believe (subject to correction by some expert) that the family wants that $1,000 plus the rest of the priviledges.

But ignoring that, let's see what our hero did. (no sarcasm at all)

First all those solders were in combat who were in that battle.
He ended up on a grenade and died in the explosion.

Suppose he had not been shot in his head.

Linger on that please. The man may or may not have been aware of what then happened. Did he want to land on the grenade or being shot in the head, did it just happen.

When shot in the head, the body can do involuntary moves.

The key here is he was shot in the head. Dad killed a much larger animal than a man with nothing but a .22 cal pistol.

Think what military ammo can do to a head.

So, before somebody rushes to judgement, at leaxt take into account two things.

First, he got the next medal to the MOH so he got awarded a super high award.

Second, were he aware once shot in the head, he may have figured he was dead anyway so why not go out with a bang.

I have no opinion on the should he get it or not get it. I would like it settled with the MOH medal and cash value awards. Not everybody falls on grenades. I know of no known survivor when they are on top of grenades. I tossed a few of them and know how powerful they are. Not pretty.

One more thing the non military may not understand about grenades.

The blast, we were trained, puts out schrapnel in a cone shaped fashion. The blast effects can be vastly mitigated by dropping down flat. The other troops in the fight may have gone prone or been prone. As such, the chances of injury have gone way down.

But civilians are not trained in the use of hand grenades.

Ask CSM if I am telling the truth. And I was in the Army hundreds of years ago it seems like
now.

I tend to think that unless a Navy man has learned this, somehow, they probably don't realize that either, that blasts like that have this cone pattern with the cone looking like a V shape. Imagine you are on either side of the V shape and flat on your face. You may get killed if you are too close or you may get nicked a few feet away but of course all of you experts already knew that, heh?

One more thing. Don't pull the pin on a hand grenade and try to stuff it into your purse. It will give you a headache for a long time. :laugh:

Robert A Whit
12-14-2012, 12:53 PM
I highly doubt these family members are saying they prefer a medal over the return of their loved one. The fact is, they cannot have their loved one back. Given that reality, it appears it would comfort them in some measure to know that his sacrifice was recognized in the way our country has decided it can best do so.

I agree on the whole with Sassy. Use the preponderance of eye witness evidence, and make a decision based on that. I don't see the need for removing a shadow of a doubt; this isn't a murder trial.

I believe, based on the article, that his fellow men in combat did give their opinions. Based on those opinions, the chain of command had to decide. Rather than give him no medal, they gave him the Navy Cross. I never was an officer but I expect that were any of us officers in command, we would love to be the officer that had a MOH winner in his unit.

How special for the enlisted and officers to get a MOH in that unit. Some units have more than one. But I tend to suspect that not all units have one of their people get one.

I know that the infantry unit I was in had some. I plan to check to find out how many my unit got. I never met a person that got the MOH. I believe that more than half winners die winning it.

Bear in mind who is asking for the medal. Not the soldier, but the family and they probably are well aware of the high benefits to them if they prevail.

CSM
12-14-2012, 12:54 PM
Such honors, using such standards, depend on the circumstances of the action.

This soldier is not asking to be awarded the MOH. It is his family.

But take a better look at the benefits should THEY win. The monthly payment would do no good to the dead soldier so I believe (subject to correction by some expert) that the family wants that $1,000 plus the rest of the priviledges.

But ignoring that, let's see what our hero did. (no sarcasm at all)

First all those solders were in combat who were in that battle.
He ended up on a grenade and died in the explosion.

Suppose he had not been shot in his head.

Linger on that please. The man may or may not have been aware of what then happened. Did he want to land on the grenade or being shot in the head, did it just happen.

When shot in the head, the body can do involuntary moves.

The key here is he was shot in the head. Dad killed a much larger animal than a man with nothing but a .22 cal pistol.

Think what military ammo can do to a head.

So, before somebody rushes to judgement, at leaxt take into account two things.

First, he got the next medal to the MOH so he got awarded a super high award.

Second, were he aware once shot in the head, he may have figured he was dead anyway so why not go out with a bang.

I have no opinion on the should he get it or not get it. I would like it settled with the MOH medal and cash value awards. Not everybody falls on grenades. I know of no known survivor when they are on top of grenades. I tossed a few of them and know how powerful they are. Not pretty.

One more thing the non military may not understand about grenades.

The blast, we were trained, puts out schrapnel in a cone shaped fashion. The blast effects can be vastly mitigated by dropping down flat. The other troops in the fight may have gone prone or been prone. As such, the chances of injury have gone way down.

But civilians are not trained in the use of hand grenades.

Ask CSM if I am telling the truth. And I was in the Army hundreds of years ago it seems like
now.

I tend to think that unless a Navy man has learned this, somehow, they probably don't realize that either, that blasts like that have this cone pattern with the cone looking like a V shape. Imagine you are on either side of the V shape and flat on your face. You may get killed if you are too close or you may get nicked a few feet away but of course all of you experts already knew that, heh?

One more thing. Don't pull the pin on a hand grenade and try to stuff it into your purse. It will give you a headache for a long time. :laugh:

I really do not believe that family is at all interested in the entitlements; I am just not that jaded (yet). Heck, I doubt that most people even knew of the entitlements associated with the MoH. Of course, now that we have made those entitlements public I suppose some will call for cutting out the $1,000 a month stipend, especially since it is connected to the military. I bet THAT will balance the budget!

The fact that the matter even came up in the media just shows me that there is NOT "incontestable proof" as is required.

Abbey Marie
12-14-2012, 01:08 PM
I did not mean to imply that the family preferred medals over the return of their loved one. I would also point out that there has been honor and recognition given (pretty darned high recognition ... Navy Cross). You may not agree with the process or requirements used in deciding worthiness for the MoH but it is the process and requirement in place currently. On a side note, if every death qualified for the MoH, it would diminish the significance of the MoH. That does not mean that each death is not significant, either. As I stated earlier, just because the MoH was not awarded in this particular case does not mean the person was not a hero nor does it diminish the heroic actions he displayed.

As for the process used, by all means, make your feelings known to your Congressional delegates if you think they are unfair, too stringent, etc. The MoH is presented by the President in the name of Congress. Congress sets the criteria (not the military!) though the submissions are reviewed by the chain of command before being submitted to Congress.

Actually, you more than implied twice that the medal cannot give them their loved one back. Otherwise, I wouldn't have made the comment I did. And I don't think anyone here, certainly not me, is saying every death deserves the Medal of Honor. That's total exaggeration. What I and others ARE saying that THIS death MIGHT have.

Finally, because I have a debating point on a message board, based on what's been presented here, does not mean I have the level of interest in the case to start a writing campaign. Let's stop the over-weighting of posts on a board.

CSM
12-14-2012, 01:14 PM
Actually, you more than implied twice that the medal cannot give them their loved one back. Otherwise, I wouldn't have made the comment I did. And I don't think anyone here, certainly not me, is saying every death deserves the Medal of Honor. That's total exaggeration. What I and others ARE saying that THIS death MIGHT have.

Finally, because I have a debating point on a message board, based on what's been presented here, does not mean I have the level of interest in the case to start a writing campaign. Let's stop the over-weighting of posts on a board.

Really???? Fine. I shall post no more.

Robert A Whit
12-14-2012, 01:20 PM
3rd Infantry Division is perhaps the highest winners of the MOH. The old timers will remember who Audie Murphy was. Audie was in the 3rd ID and I could be wrong but I believe to this day he is the man with the most medals of all time. And he had the MOH and lived to tell about it.

We are arguing the merits of a man who landed on a grenade vs what other MOH heros have done.

I checked my unit that I served with and during WWI and II, it got 4 MOH winners. None at all in the wars after WWII. None in Korea nor in Iraq. And they fought in the more current wars.

I want to post a story of a winner. I want you to notice some points.

1. This MOH winner was advancing on the enemy.
3. He inflicted serious casualties on the enemy.
4. He was shot before he ever killed a German.

Compare his story to the guy who simply landed on a grenade and died in the blast.

Actions should be examined and what those actions caused. Grenades can land in your area and so long as you go flat on the ground, you have a good chance of living.

Now the story. Compare it to the guy whose family wants the medal. Too late for the dead soldier. He is not aware he won the Navy Cross.

=====================
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at risk of life above and beyond the call of duty. At about 1430 hours on 8 January 1945, during an attack on Hill 616, near Kayserberg, France, T/Sgt. Dunham single-handedly assaulted 3 enemy machineguns. Wearing a white robe made of a mattress cover, carrying 12 carbine magazines and with a dozen hand grenades snagged in his belt, suspenders, and buttonholes, T/Sgt. Dunham advanced in the attack up a snow-covered hill under fire from 2 machineguns and supporting riflemen. His platoon 35 yards behind him, T/Sgt. Dunham crawled 75 yards under heavy direct fire toward the timbered emplacement shielding the left machinegun. As he jumped to his feet 10 yards from the gun and charged forward, machinegun fire tore through his camouflage robe and a rifle bullet seared a 10-inch gash across his back sending him spinning 15 yards down hill into the snow. When the indomitable sergeant sprang to his feet to renew his 1-man assault, a German egg grenade landed beside him. He kicked it aside, and as it exploded 5 yards away, shot and killed the German machinegunner and assistant gunner. His carbine empty, he jumped into the emplacement and hauled out the third member of the gun crew by the collar. Although his back wound was causing him excruciating pain and blood was seeping through his white coat, T/Sgt. Dunham proceeded 50 yards through a storm of automatic and rifle fire to attack the second machinegun. Twenty-five yards from the emplacement he hurled 2 grenades, destroying the gun and its crew; then fired down into the supporting foxholes with his carbine dispatching and dispersing the enemy riflemen. Although his coat was so thoroughly blood-soaked that he was a conspicuous target against the white landscape, T/Sgt. Dunham again advanced ahead of his platoon in an assault on enemy positions farther up the hill. Coming under machinegun fire from 65 yards to his front, while rifle grenades exploded 10 yards from his position, he hit the ground and crawled forward. At 15 yards range, he jumped to his feet, staggered a few paces toward the timbered machinegun emplacement and killed the crew with hand grenades. An enemy rifleman fired at pointblank range, but missed him. After killing the rifleman, T/Sgt. Dunham drove others from their foxholes with grenades and carbine fire. Killing 9 Germans--wounding 7 and capturing 2--firing about 175 rounds of carbine ammunition, and expending 11 grenades, T/Sgt. Dunham, despite a painful wound, spearheaded a spectacular and successful diversionary attack.

========================
But the guy who got the Navy Cross landed on a grenade.

Now can you see why some get the MOH??

aboutime
12-14-2012, 02:08 PM
​ Too bad this thread has become the ROBERT....I LOVE ME, AND BRAG ABOUT MYSELF thread!

Robert A Whit
12-14-2012, 02:43 PM
​ Too bad this thread has become the ROBERT....I LOVE ME, AND BRAG ABOUT MYSELF thread!

Well, it appears to me that you don't mind telling lies and you feel immune from sanctions thus you keep telling lies.

Do list any brags on my part please. And do you despise yourself? Of course you don't. So stop this shit today. It is time you stopped pissing in your mess kit.

aboutime
12-14-2012, 05:34 PM
Well, it appears to me that you don't mind telling lies and you feel immune from sanctions thus you keep telling lies.

Do list any brags on my part please. And do you despise yourself? Of course you don't. So stop this shit today. It is time you stopped pissing in your mess kit.


Robert. Even when I attempt to be halfway nice to you, for any reason. You come down on me, and piss in my Wheaties about something. So. If you'd like to end this argument about whatever you consider MY LIES. This is your opportunity to stop whatever SHIT you happen to be talking about.
As for this thread. Go back and look at the total number of POSTS from YOU...that are unrelated to the MEDAL OF HONOR for that Marine, and instead...became the ROBERT Autobiography chapter.
And not once did I call any of that SHIT.

Robert A Whit
12-14-2012, 05:40 PM
Robert. Even when I attempt to be halfway nice to you, for any reason. You come down on me, and piss in my Wheaties about something. So. If you'd like to end this argument about whatever you consider MY LIES. This is your opportunity to stop whatever SHIT you happen to be talking about.
As for this thread. Go back and look at the total number of POSTS from YOU...that are unrelated to the MEDAL OF HONOR for that Marine, and instead...became the ROBERT Autobiography chapter.
And not once did I call any of that SHIT.

Oh, your rip of me is good for me????

That what you claim?

I told you the FIRST time would you please stop pissing on me?

I even asked you if you wanted to be liked.

You bellowed out, hell no you don't want to be liked.

Then on this thread you had to go and attack me one more time.

Stop pretending you are the victim pal.

I am very willing to end this conflict.

I won't bother asking for an apology since in my heart I doubt one would come.

But sure, you end it and we both end it. I am not here to start pissing matches with you as you do to me.

aboutime
12-14-2012, 05:45 PM
Does anyone have any idea what Robert just said?

If so. Please alliterate so that everyone else knows?

Robert A Whit
12-14-2012, 06:56 PM
Does anyone have any idea what Robert just said?

If so. Please alliterate so that everyone else knows?

I apologize to the forum for the following.

1. I stood up to AT
2. I picked on a senile human being.
3. I won't take his shit. For nobody.
4. He made it clear a number of times that he is not interested in anybody liking him.

I am sorry.

I don't agree with his positions.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
12-14-2012, 07:12 PM
There should not be this level of disagreement about the heroic actions of the fallen soldier IMHO. If he truly deserved the MOH but got the NavyCross instead (a very high honor itself) its not as bad as those that deserved the MOH BUT WERE NEVER NOMINATED FOR IT.

I believe he earned it but the decision is made, time to honor the man for his service and his bravery. -:salute:

That we have men of that caliber and have always had is a blessing upon this nation! -Tyr

aboutime
12-14-2012, 07:15 PM
There should not be this level of disagreement about the heroic actions of the fallen soldier IMHO. If he truly deserved the MOH but got the NavyCross instead (a very high honor itself) its not as bad as those that deserved the MOH BUT WERE NEVER NOMINATED FOR IT.

I believe he earned it but the decision is made, time to honor the man for his service and his bravery. -:salute:

That we have men of that caliber and have always had is a blessing upon this nation! -Tyr


Tyr. Agreed. And thanks for bringing the TOPIC of this thread back to reality.

Kathianne
12-15-2012, 01:10 AM
Robert. Even when I attempt to be halfway nice to you, for any reason. You come down on me, and piss in my Wheaties about something. So. If you'd like to end this argument about whatever you consider MY LIES. This is your opportunity to stop whatever SHIT you happen to be talking about.
As for this thread. Go back and look at the total number of POSTS from YOU...that are unrelated to the MEDAL OF HONOR for that Marine, and instead...became the ROBERT Autobiography chapter.
And not once did I call any of that SHIT.

Another to add to the list of those besides 'only me' that Robert has issues with. ;)

Kathianne
12-15-2012, 01:11 AM
​ Too bad this thread has become the ROBERT....I LOVE ME, AND BRAG ABOUT MYSELF thread!

Have you seen any posts of his, that don't come back to it being 'all about Bob?'

logroller
12-15-2012, 02:52 AM
What about bob? Lol!

Kathianne
12-15-2012, 02:58 AM
What about bob? Lol!

A collective sigh, "Who cares about Bob, other than Bob?"

logroller
12-15-2012, 03:58 AM
A collective sigh, "Who cares about Bob, other than Bob?"
The blacks in his neighborhood?

mundame
12-15-2012, 12:42 PM
Well, if they had autopsy data, as they claim, showing he was already dead when the grenade exploded and so could not have jumped on top of it, I think that should be respected.

Fog of War. Hard for people to know what happened.

aboutime
12-15-2012, 01:37 PM
Have you seen any posts of his, that don't come back to it being 'all about Bob?'


Kathianne. NOPE, NO, NATTA. Which is why I asked the question, and stopped calling him Bob, shortly after he told us. His friends call him Bob. So. Robert is on his own.

Robert A Whit
12-15-2012, 04:38 PM
There should not be this level of disagreement about the heroic actions of the fallen soldier IMHO. If he truly deserved the MOH but got the NavyCross instead (a very high honor itself) its not as bad as those that deserved the MOH BUT WERE NEVER NOMINATED FOR IT.

I believe he earned it but the decision is made, time to honor the man for his service and his bravery. -:salute:

That we have men of that caliber and have always had is a blessing upon this nation! -Tyr

As I said, if his family protest results in the MOH going to this fallen soldier, I am pleased.

But I did try to understand why he might not get it. Rather than run around like a loose cannon chock full of emotion, fighting with some poster and accusing him of making this a love fest about himself, I offered some evidence.

I read some MOH winners reports.

I posted one of them.

The guy who got the Award during WWII actually charged the enemy. He did not get shot in the head and end up on a grenade.

I wish I knew of this guy that died in Iraq knew what he was doing. (shot in head /fell on explosive)

I think that is the problem for two administrations who studied this.

But not only he, but all of those guys who had to deal with conflict in Iraq can be called heros.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
12-17-2012, 12:25 AM
But not only he, but all of those guys who had to deal with conflict in Iraq can be called heros.

Agreed.. -:beer:--Tyr

logroller
12-17-2012, 04:15 AM
As I said, if his family protest results in the MOH going to this fallen soldier, I am pleased.

But I did try to understand why he might not get it. Rather than run around like a loose cannon chock full of emotion, fighting with some poster and accusing him of making this a love fest about himself, I offered some evidence.

I read some MOH winners reports.

I posted one of them.

The guy who got the Award during WWII actually charged the enemy. He did not get shot in the head and end up on a grenade.

I wish I knew of this guy that died in Iraq knew what he was doing. (shot in head /fell on explosive)

I think that is the problem for two administrations who studied this.

But not only he, but all of those guys who had to deal with conflict in Iraq can be called heros.
FWIW, all of those guys received medals; but its really not about the medals. I think what's not accorded all of them is the story of their sacrifice being told. I remember watching some alligator reality show and they had a double (maybe triple) amputee on that was a veteran of Iraq. Clearly, he's a hero. however, When people told him called him a hero, he'd say, "you know who's my hero...the field medic who kept working to save my life when there was almost no chance." Made me realize that its actions that are heroic. That heroes are just regular people that do heroic things. A doctor, teacher, parent, or some kid that grabs his friends to escape a gunman-- heroes are just normal people who put others first. I think that's why we find such inspiration from them-- they're just like us, only they did what we aspire to do given the opportunity.
I don't know if all here are familiar with the MOH recipient from Afghanistan, Marine Corps Corporal Dakota Meyer (he's the one who requested to have beer with the Prez)-- absolutely incredible story of heroism-- embodies everything that the MOH stands for. He, however, feels that he failed because his team members died-- they were heroes, not him. All but he likely agree that he's a hero too-- that he indeed went above and beyond the call of duty; but at the same time, I think it's that prerequisite sense of putting others above oneself that results in a hero rejecting the title.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
12-17-2012, 08:59 AM
FWIW, all of those guys received medals; but its really not about the medals. I think what's not accorded all of them is the story of their sacrifice being told. I remember watching some alligator reality show and they had a double (maybe triple) amputee on that was a veteran of Iraq. Clearly, he's a hero. however, When people told him called him a hero, he'd say, "you know who's my hero...the field medic who kept working to save my life when there was almost no chance." Made me realize that its actions that are heroic. That heroes are just regular people that do heroic things. A doctor, teacher, parent, or some kid that grabs his friends to escape a gunman-- heroes are just normal people who put others first. I think that's why we find such inspiration from them-- they're just like us, only they did what we aspire to do given the opportunity.
I don't know if all here are familiar with the MOH recipient from Afghanistan, Marine Corps Corporal Dakota Meyer (he's the one who requested to have beer with the Prez)-- absolutely incredible story of heroism-- embodies everything that the MOH stands for. He, however, feels that he failed because his team members died-- they were heroes, not him. All but he likely agree that he's a hero too-- that he indeed went above and beyond the call of duty; but at the same time, I think it's that prerequisite sense of putting others above oneself that results in a hero rejecting the title.

^^^^^ That deserves a big BRAVO, if anything ever does..-:amen:---Tyr

aboutime
12-17-2012, 08:34 PM
^^^^^ That deserves a big BRAVO, if anything ever does..-:amen:---Tyr


​I will second that with a Navy....BRAVO ZULU! Well done! Well said!