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darin
12-14-2012, 11:32 AM
Got this via email:


The number one complaint I get about the grace message from people is that they feel it’s giving us a license to sin. I am certain I’ve heard this accusation no less than a million times in the last five years. It usually goes something like this:


“You mean to tell me that I can do drugs, kill people, rob banks and burn down an orphanage and I’ll still go to heaven?”
It amazes me how folks come to that conclusion after hearing that we are forgiven for everything, and He will never leave us or forsake us. You have to wonder what’s in the heart of Americans today when betrayal and debauchery are the first thing that comes to their mind when offered security in a relationship.


Could you imagine going to a wedding and listening to the bride and groom recite their vows: “I will never leave you - through sickness and health - for richer or poorer - for better or for worse - till death do us part,” and some guy on the front row raises his hand and says, “Woe dude, that means you can cheat on her, do drugs, beat her up and burn her parents' house down.” It’s interesting that this is the mentality that people worry that others will take when offered a forever covenant with God. The separating factor between those who "get it" and those who don't, is love. People who do not have love in their hearts almost always interpret a forever covenant as an opportunity to sin.


An open hearted human reaction to eternal security is almost never this. Security in a relationship causes the heart to open wide and become transparent and vulnerable. The forever covenant is assurance that every part of a person will be accepted and loved, no matter how ugly or dark. It encourages a person to no longer hide within themselves or live in secret. When they know they are safe forever, they are a thousand times more likely to give all of themselves and hold nothing back. This is the heart behind the marriage covenant of “Till death do us part.”


For any relationship to be authentic, it must start with a forever covenant of eternal security. Unfortunately, today, most relationships don’t have this one foundational element and they are plagued with secrecy, uncertainty, and shallowness. I think that more than anything, today’s relationships are saturated with control. I have found that control is humanity's antidote to insecurity. This is where the heart of today’s Christian thinking exists.


Most Christian teachings today strip us of our security in our relationship with God. They create uncertainty in the hearts of people as to where they stand with Him at any given time. Once uncertainty has been swallowed, control sets in. It sets in because it is needed immediately. There is a vacuum created with unsureness that needs to be filled with something more powerful than itself. Control is not only needed, but it’s desired as well.


Teachings about accountability partners, spiritual leaders, submitting to authority and church covering are widely accepted with little or no resistance. When a loving God is made to look unpredictable and not so loving, people submit to someone who they think might know better than them. They lose confidence in themselves and their ability to please an unpleaseable God, so they put themselves under the care and control of others in an effort to find security again.
Without security, the Christian life becomes about “NOT sinning.” Every single aspect of a person’s relationship with God is determined by whether or not they have sinned recently. I have found that just about every Christian term is somehow linked to this pattern of belief. Anytime a Christian today is talking about his spiritual struggles, he is most certainly talking about a personal battle with some sin in his life. If a person is struggling to get closer to God, they are usually struggling to conquer a sin or a pattern of sin. When someone feels especially spiritual and close to God, it’s usually because they haven’t committed any of their big sins in the last few weeks. Because they feel as though they got the victory of that particular sin, they feel freed up and confident to approach God.


“Growing in the Lord” is defined by how much less a person sins than they did before they met God. Today, we even consider our “witness for Christ” to be our public abstinence from sin. If a person sins in front of unbelievers, they are told that they “blew their witness.” Almost all Christian “testimonies” are about how a person was caught in a life of sin before they met Jesus. The bigger the sins a person was committing before they got saved, the more they are asked to give their testimony in front of others.


It doesn’t surprise me that when the grace message is preached today, the first thing that comes to mind with the average Christian is sin. The grace message is spoken of as a “license to sin” and the mere thought of that scares people to death. It goes against everything they think the Christian life is about. Finding out that God loves you whether you sin or not, is a bit scary because people aren’t sure what they’ll do.


One person actually told me that it’s safer to deny the grace message because that way they’d know for sure that they would sin less. “Freedom in Christ” sounds too much like “freedom to sin.” It’s just not worth chancing it.
I have listened to grace preachers all over the world respond to the world famous “license to sin” accusation. We all have our own way of trying to get people to not look at it that way, but to see the heart of relationship and what Christianity is really about. My approach to this has become vastly different from most. In fact, I believe it would down right scare the hell out of most pastors.


Do I think the grace message gives people a license to sin?
YES, I absolutely do.


Part of giving someone freedom, is giving them their choice back. Christianity today has stripped us of our choice to sin. When we are told that sin separates us from God and we will be punished, our choice in the matter is taken away. We have an entire generation of people who quit sinning because of the outer voice of their religion rather than the inner personal voice of their heart. In other words, their quitting didn’t come from their heart; it came from their head. The grace message gives people back their right to sin, and it provides an atmosphere in which they can grow spiritually right and find truth in the center of themselves rather than in a system. A license to sin is not an encouragement to sin, but it’s the right to sin. Take away that right, and you take away relationship altogether.


"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything." --Paul--
Without a license to sin, I don’t believe people will ever know their own heart, much less the Heart of God. The problem is that in the process of molding themselves to fit religion's requirements, a person learns to deny any and all inner emotions of the heart that might cause them to sin. Things like anger, passion, lust and greed are shut down and the result is that they lose contact with self and eventually forget who they are altogether. Sadly, Christians today stand adamantly against sin, but they have no idea why. They don’t feel a thing in their hearts about sin, other than the memorized knowledge that “it’s wrong.” They believe it’s wrong, not because their heart sings that truth, but because that’s what they’ve been taught. When you shut down some aspects of the heart, you end up shutting down ALL aspects of the heart.


Some people who believe that Christianity is about “not sinning” will inevitably say, “What difference does it make? As long as a person isn’t sinning, who cares what’s behind it?” This is an anti-intimacy mentality. Would you rather have your spouse not cheat on you because adultery is a sin or because they love you? Giving someone a license to sin is the only way to get to the “because I love you” answer. Most fear that answer will never come, so they opt for the “adultery is a sin” card. It’s more controlling and has a better guarantee. They’ll say something like, “If you ever cheat on me, I’ll divorce you” in a feeble effort to guarantee the other person's faithfulness. Real relationship says, “If you ever cheated on me, I wouldn’t leave you.” It leaves faithfulness completely up to the heart of their spouse. The thought of that is terrifying.


When my six-year-old daughter informed us that she wanted to run away, we packed a suitcase for her and opened the door. Needless to say, she changed her mind and told us she wants to stay with us. I’m not interested in making prisoners out of my children. The only way to accomplish that is to give them a license to run away. The same is true with the grace message. God wants relationship that is based on a heart's desire for intimacy with Him. He’s not interested in keeping prisoners. The only way to have this intimacy with people is to give them a license to sin.
True freedom comes only when the hand of control is removed and a person is given choice to sin or not to sin. If you have a hundred birds in a cage and fifty of those birds belong to you, but the other fifty do not; how many will fly away if you open the cage?
ALL OF THEM.
However, fifty will eventually fly back. Then and only then, is relationship possible.


The more I meditate on things, the more I sorta move towards what the author is speaking of - the idea we are loved, cherrished, and in God's eyes can do nothing wrong. Or, we 'can' do wrong, but the wrongess of our attitudes pales in comparison to His grace.

I wonder how many folks of any religion would still serve their God and "love him" if there were no reward system upon death?

tailfins
12-14-2012, 11:57 AM
In spite of being sealed by salvation until the day of redemption, there are consequences here on Earth for sin on an individual, community and national level.

aboutime
12-14-2012, 02:23 PM
My take on this is. A large portion of our American society today easily refuses to accept, or believe in a God, or the words in a book called the Bible that pronounces the Good, and Evil, Good, and Bad, Right and Wrong human beings have followed for centuries.

By saying they do not believe in a God, or the Bible...seems to be their license NOT to obey the common laws of man...such as the 10 commandments.
So. If they refuse to believe in a God, have no faith, do not read a Bible or Quran....they give themself the freedoms of NOT obeying the 10 laws of man...if they refuse to believe, or act civil like other humans.

IT'S THE EASY WAY OUT of being held Responsible for your own actions. Nothing more, nothing Less.

darin
12-14-2012, 02:31 PM
My take on this is. A large portion of our American society today easily refuses to accept, or believe in a God, or the words in a book called the Bible that pronounces the Good, and Evil, Good, and Bad, Right and Wrong human beings have followed for centuries.

By saying they do not believe in a God, or the Bible...seems to be their license NOT to obey the common laws of man...such as the 10 commandments.
So. If they refuse to believe in a God, have no faith, do not read a Bible or Quran....they give themself the freedoms of NOT obeying the 10 laws of man...if they refuse to believe, or act civil like other humans.

IT'S THE EASY WAY OUT of being held Responsible for your own actions. Nothing more, nothing Less.

Millions, perhaps, of our ancestors died loving, wonderful, and amazing people - I'd wonder how many died as such before AD 325? The beauty of Grace, as it is, means life is not Fair. Grace is incompatible with 'justice' or 'being held-accountable'.

The bible does not bring people into understanding of God; Christ/God brings people into an understanding of who He is.

aboutime
12-14-2012, 02:45 PM
Millions, perhaps, of our ancestors died loving, wonderful, and amazing people - I'd wonder how many died as such before AD 325? The beauty of Grace, as it is, means life is not Fair. Grace is incompatible with 'justice' or 'being held-accountable'.

The bible does not bring people into understanding of God; Christ/God brings people into an understanding of who He is.


dmp. Agreed. But the bigger problem is. Most are convinced THERE IS NO "HE", so they refuse to try and understand.

darin
12-14-2012, 02:51 PM
dmp. Agreed. But the bigger problem is. Most are convinced THERE IS NO "HE", so they refuse to try and understand.

I'm not convinced God cares of we believe in him or not; I believe He loves those who distances themselves from Him as much or more than those who try learn more about Him.

aboutime
12-14-2012, 03:04 PM
I'm not convinced God cares of we believe in him or not; I believe He loves those who distances themselves from Him as much or more than those who try learn more about Him.


Can't disagree with that dmp. But..if they remain distanced from him. It shows they do not fear something they do not understand, or believe in. It's a LOSE-LOSE for those like us who Do believe. And a WIN-WIN for those who don't.

We can't prove what they do not want to believe. It's an age-old reality none of us can control.

Now. I wish to end this conversation about Religion.
My parents always warned me about never arguing about Money, Taxes, and Religion. And forums like this prove it.

SassyLady
12-14-2012, 03:45 PM
I wonder how many folks of any religion would still serve their God and "love him" if there were no reward system upon death?

I do. I don't believe in heaven or hell ... I believe that we should all live as God ... not base our actions on what we think we might achieve or suffer as a result of them.

darin
12-14-2012, 04:34 PM
Can't disagree with that dmp. But..if they remain distanced from him. It shows they do not fear something they do not understand, or believe in. It's a LOSE-LOSE for those like us who Do believe. And a WIN-WIN for those who don't.



Wish you wouldn't be done - what's lose-lose for those who believe?

Larrymc
12-14-2012, 04:50 PM
Got this via email:



The more I meditate on things, the more I sorta move towards what the author is speaking of - the idea we are loved, cherrished, and in God's eyes can do nothing wrong. Or, we 'can' do wrong, but the wrongess of our attitudes pales in comparison to His grace.

I wonder how many folks of any religion would still serve their God and "love him" if there were no reward system upon death?my understanding of Grace, it to finish our faith, when we have done to the best of our ability to deny sin, when we still come up short and we will, Gods grace is sufficient to finish it, while its true God will forgive most sin, the key is or you truly sorry, and God knows, i was being prepped for Brain surgery and i was concerned that i wouldn't come out of it, and i prayed Lord sense even my thoughts can be held against me, im sure i have unconfused sin please revel any to me that i might repent, He Said To Me My Grace Is Sufficient, i had never really understood what that meant. as for as reward, the sinful nature is powerful and i doubt anyone could resist it without purpose

aboutime
12-14-2012, 05:25 PM
I do. I don't believe in heaven or hell ... I believe that we should all live as God ... not base our actions on what we think we might achieve or suffer as a result of them.


SassyLady. Since I first learned about Jesus, and God as a 5 or 6 year old. Going to church every Sunday with my sister, Mother, and Father. Sitting in the front pews, listening to the Minister tell his stories before the children (me) were dismissed to our Sunday school classes. I have learned one, very distinct, unchangeable fact about my life, and how it will eventually end.

And this has become my standard of living...in that I have always tried to remember to DO UNTO OTHERS, and for doing that. I would die and go to heaven.

What makes me very angry about that last part is. The truth is...I WON'T KNOW IT WHEN IT HAPPENS, and WON'T BE ABLE TO PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING before I have a chance to do everything I wanted to do, say goodbye, and I Love You to my wife, our son's and our five grandchildren.

And...to top all of that off.

NOT ONE OF YOU READING THIS NOW has the power to change that, or PROVE otherwise.
That's the trick GOD is playing on all of us. Letting us WONDER, and never really answering ALL OF THE QUESTIONS...if we never bother to ask them.

SassyLady
12-14-2012, 05:28 PM
SassyLady. Since I first learned about Jesus, and God as a 5 or 6 year old. Going to church every Sunday with my sister, Mother, and Father. Sitting in the front pews, listening to the Minister tell his stories before the children (me) were dismissed to our Sunday school classes. I have learned one, very distinct, unchangeable fact about my life, and how it will eventually end.

And this has become my standard of living...in that I have always tried to remember to DO UNTO OTHERS, and for doing that. I would die and go to heaven.

What makes me very angry about that last part is. The truth is...I WON'T KNOW IT WHEN IT HAPPENS, and WON'T BE ABLE TO PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING before I have a chance to do everything I wanted to do, say goodbye, and I Love You to my wife, our son's and our five grandchildren.

And...to top all of that off.

NOT ONE OF YOU READING THIS NOW has the power to change that, or PROVE otherwise.
That's the trick GOD is playing on all of us. Letting us WONDER, and never really answering ALL OF THE QUESTIONS...if we never bother to ask them.

I, too, went to Sunday school every Sunday ... morning and night, and on Wednesday nights for Bible Study. The difference in me is that I believe you do unto others not just to get into heaven. We should do it whether there is a heaven or hell. And, I don't understand why people need reward/punishment in order to behave properly.

PS .... I don't believe in heaven or hell because I believe in reincarnation. We keep coming back to continue to learn to make the right choices in order to share God's love for humanity.

Larrymc
12-14-2012, 05:43 PM
I, too, went to Sunday school every Sunday ... morning and night, and on Wednesday nights for Bible Study. The difference in me is that I believe you do unto others not just to get into heaven. We should do it whether there is a heaven or hell. And, I don't understand why people need reward/punishment in order to behave properly.

PS .... I don't believe in heaven or hell because I believe in reincarnation. We keep coming back to continue to learn to make the right choices in order to share God's love for humanity.just curious what is your guide for Behaving Properly??

SassyLady
12-14-2012, 06:02 PM
just curious what is your guide for Behaving Properly??

Treating others with dignity and respect and in such a way that any day, literally any day, is a good day to die because you've not done anything that needs forgiveness ... from either another human or God.

Larrymc
12-14-2012, 06:51 PM
Treating others with dignity and respect and in such a way that any day, literally any day, is a good day to die because you've not done anything that needs forgiveness ... from either another human or God.i agree that is a great philosophy i get it from the Bible, You?

SassyLady
12-15-2012, 12:25 AM
i agree that is a great philosophy i get it from the Bible, You?

I think I was born knowing ... must have learned from a previous life.