Arm Teachers

[Kathianne]

I'm beginning to come to the realization this may be the best response. Voluntarily of course, no one should be 'required' to carry. However, when seconds count, police are minutes away. In the CT case, 20 minutes: (http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-timeline/index.html)


...First responders arrive At the police station, dispatchers began to take calls from inside the school. Authorities say the first emergency call about the shooting came in at "approximately" 9:30 a.m.


"Sandy Hook school. Caller is indicating she thinks someone is shooting in the building," a dispatcher told fire and medical personnel, according to 911 tapes.
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<audio controls="controls"><source src="http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/12/15/911_ct_call.mp3" type="audio/mp3" /></audio>');} </script> Police and other first responders arrived on scene about 20 minutes after the first calls.


Police report that no law enforcement officers discharged their weapons at any point.


The gunman took his own life, police said. He took out a handgun and shot himself in a classroom as law enforcement officers approached, officials said.

...




Very interesting read, which pretty much firmed up where my thinking has been going:

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/


An opinion on gun control (http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/) Posted on December 20, 2012 by correia45

...

I am now a professional novelist. However, before that I owned a gun store. We were a Title 7 SOT, which means we worked with legal machineguns, suppresors, and pretty much everything except for explosives. We did law enforcement sales and worked with equipment that is unavailable from most dealers, but that means lots and lots of government inspections and compliance paperwork. This means that I had to be exceedingly familiar with federal gun laws, and there are a lot of them. I worked with many companies in the gun industry and still have many friends and contacts at various manufacturers. When I hear people tell me the gun industry is unregulated, I have to resist the urge to laugh in their face.


I was also a Utah Concealed Weapons instructor, and was one of the busiest instructors in the state. That required me to learn a lot about self-defense laws, and because I took my job very seriously, I sought out every bit of information that I could. My classes were longer than the standard Utah class, and all of that extra time was spent on Use of Force, shoot/no shoot scenarios, and role playing through violent encounters. I have certified thousands of people to carry guns.

...


Armed Teachers



So now that there is a new tragedy the president wants to have a “national conversation on guns”. Here’s the thing. Until this national conversation is willing to entertain allowing teachers to carry concealed weapons, then it isn’t a conversation at all, it is a lecture.

...


No. Hear me out. The single best way to respond to a mass shooter is with an immediate, violent response. The vast majority of the time, as soon as a mass shooter meets serious resistance, it bursts their fantasy world bubble. Then they kill themselves or surrender. This has happened over and over again.


Police are awesome. I love working with cops. However any honest cop will tell you that when seconds count they are only minutes away. After Colombine law enforcement changed their methods in dealing with active shooters. It used to be that you took up a perimeter and waited for overwhelming force before going in. Now usually as soon as you have two officers on scene you go in to confront the shooter (often one in rural areas or if help is going to take another minute, because there are a lot of very sound tactical reasons for using two, mostly because your success/survival rates jump dramatically when you put two guys through a door at once. The shooter’s brain takes a moment to decide between targets). The reason they go fast is because they know that every second counts. The longer the shooter has to operate, the more innocents die.


However, cops can’t be everywhere. There are at best only a couple hundred thousand on duty at any given time patrolling the entire country. Excellent response time is in the three-five minute range. We’ve seen what bad guys can do in three minutes, but sometimes it is far worse. They simply can’t teleport. So in some cases that means the bad guys can have ten, fifteen, even twenty minutes to do horrible things with nobody effectively fighting back.


So if we can’t have cops there, what can we do?


The average number of people shot in a mass shooting event when the shooter is stopped by law enforcement: 14. The average number of people shot in a mass shooting event when the shooter is stopped by civilians: 2.5. The reason is simple. The armed civilians are there when it started.
The teachers are there already. The school staff is there already. Their reaction time is measured in seconds, not minutes. They can serve as your immediate violent response. Best case scenario, they engage and stop the attacker, or it bursts his fantasy bubble and he commits suicide. Worst case scenario, the armed staff provides a distraction, and while he’s concentrating on killing them, he’s not killing more children.



...


When I was a CCW instructor, I decided that I wanted more teachers with skin in the game, so I started a program where I would teach anybody who worked at a school for free. No charge. Zip. They still had to pay the state for their background check and fingerprints, but all the instruction was free. I wanted more armed teachers in my state.


I personally taught several hundred teachers. I quickly discovered that pretty much every single school in my state had at least one competent, capable, smart, willing individual. Some schools had more. I had one high school where the principal, three teachers, and a janitor showed up for class. They had just had an event where there had been a threat against the school and their resource officer had turned up AWOL. This had been a wake up call for this principal that they were on their own, and he had taken it upon himself to talk to his teachers to find the willing and capable. Good for them.


After Virginia Tech, I started teaching college students for free as well. They were 21 year old adults who could pass a background check. Why should they have to be defenseless? None of these students ever needed to stop a mass shooting, but I’m happy to say that a couple of rapists and muggers weren’t so lucky, so I consider my time well spent.


Over the course of a couple years I taught well over $20,000 worth of free CCW classes. I met hundreds and hundreds of teachers, students, and staff. All of them were responsible adults who understood that they were stuck in target rich environments filled with defenseless innocents. Whether they liked it or not, they were the first line of defense. It was the least I could do.


Permit holders are not cops. The mistake many people make is that they think permit holders are supposed to be cops or junior danger rangers. Not at all. Their only responsibility is simple. If someone is threatening to cause them or a third person serious bodily harm, and that someone has the ability, opportunity, and is acting in a manner which suggest they are a legitimate threat, then that permit holder is allowed to use lethal force against them.


...


Gun Free Zones
Gun Free Zones are hunting preserves for innocent people. Period.


Think about it. You are a violent, homicidal madman, looking to make a statement and hoping to go from disaffected loser to most famous person in the world. The best way to accomplish your goals is to kill a whole bunch of people. So where’s the best place to go shoot all these people?

Obviously, it is someplace where nobody can shoot back.



...

There were four mass killing attempts this week. Only one made the news because it helped the agreed upon media narrative.




Oregon. NOT a gun free zone. Shooter confronted by permit holder. Shooter commits suicide. Only a few casualties.
Texas. NOT a gun free zone. Shooter killed immediately by off duty cop. Only a few casualties.
Connecticut. GUN FREE ZONE. Shooters kills until the police arrive. Suicide. 26 dead.
China. GUN FREE COUNTRY. A guy with a KNIFE stabs 22 children.


And here is the nail in the coffin for Gun Free Zones. Over the last fifty years, with only one single exception (Gabby Giffords), every single mass shooting event with more than four casualties has taken place in a place where guns were supposedly not allowed.

...

[SassyLady]

The progressive, anti-gun crowd will probably rebut this suggestion (if they haven't already) with .... "what if one of the teachers snap and start shooting the children? We can't allow ANYONE to have guns".

I believe someone, perhaps more than one person, at every school should be armed with something. This nation is turning into a herd of sheep, thinking the wolves are extinct. As long as there are sheep, there needs to be sheepdogs.

I am going to get one of these T-shirts.




I am the Sheepdog T-Shirt

“We know that the sheep live in denial; that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids’ schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid’s school. Our children are dozens of times more likely to be killed, and thousands of times more likely to be seriously injured, by school violence than by school fires, but the sheep’s only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their children is just too hard, so they choose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn’t tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, “Baa.”

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.” – Lt. Col. Grossman

This shirt is dedicated to all the sheepdogs out there, under appreciated though they may be, that hunt the things that go bump in the night and keep the wolves at bay.

http://www.rangerup.com/sheepdog.html

[Kathianne]

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/12/sometimes-you-just-have-to-do-something.php


Sometimes You Just Have To Do Something… Further to the ongoing debate over school safety, gun control, etc., one of my daughters texted me this graphic:
http://2-ps.googleusercontent.com/h/www.powerlineblog.com/admin/ed-assets/2012/12/550x548xDuelingSigns041.png.pagespeed.ic.xQax3b6RS M.jpg (http://www.powerlineblog.com/admin/ed-assets/2012/12/DuelingSigns041.png)
I think the emerging consensus is that the best way to protect schools is by ensuring that at least one or two responsible adults in each school are armed. Of course, it will take some time to implement that consensus. Teachers, administrators and custodians can’t be trained overnight.
In the meantime, I sympathize with liberals who say we need to do something right now…something like banning random types of firearms, for no particular reason. No, seriously–I get the fact that sometimes we need to do something, just to make a statement…to show that we care…even if what we do is only symbolic. I agree that this is such a time. So this morning, I joined the NRA.

[Robert A Whit]

I'm beginning to come to the realization this may be the best response. Voluntarily of course, no one should be 'required' to carry. However, when seconds count, police are minutes away. In the CT case, 20 minutes: (http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-timeline/index.html)



Very interesting read, which pretty much firmed up where my thinking has been going:

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/

20 minutes is far too long to allow a killer hunt soft targets.

Aside from arming teachers, and not every teacher has to be armed, more has to be done.

For instance, tasers for all teachers. Pepper spray for all teachers.

Killers fear being confronted and that is why so many kill themselves when they reach a wall.

Build the wall first. Make the wall strong.

Arming teachers is part of the problem solved.

This is not a refuttal by the way. Very good article by a man that trained many to use guns in such situations.

I noted how snotty Dianne Feinstein got over the talk by the NRA. You would think by the reaction of the Democrats we wanted kids killed rather than saved. They want guns out of our lives.

No, I will not turn my gun over to them. They are not my friends.

[aboutime]

Everyone reading this who has Children, or Grandchildren MUST decide....what they will feel most comfortable with after they drop off their children, or grandchildren at schools.

Think! Put yourself in that position of being a parent if you aren't.

What would make you feel most comfortable, safe, and secure as you Drive away each morning...saying GOODBYE to those children for possibly.....either THE LAST TIME, or satisfied you will see them ALIVE again??????

[Little-Acorn]

"Arming teachers" is a very bad idea.

Allowing concealed carry by all responsible adults, including teachers, is a very good idea.

If you simply "arm teachers", and I presume give them some kind of training in gun safety and responsible use (i.e. hitting the right target and not the wrong one), then you will wind up with:
(a) some teachers who respond well, carry safely, ignore small provocations, and hit the right target when needed; and
(b) some teachers who don't want to carry, will never have the right viewpoint when carrying, resent having this ugly, heavy thing with them, and might blaze away without sufficient judgement and control, possibly when a genuine bad guy isn't even there.

If you allow all law-abiding adults (including teachers) to carry, and require them to get weapons training to carry on campus, then only the ones who feel they can shoulder the heavy responsibility of carrying a gun will do it, and you will wind up with a much better-suited groups of armed adults present when a genuine bad guy shows up.

An extra, added bennie: The bad guy might think about that before he heads to the local elementary school, realize that he won't be able to rack up the huge body count he was hoping for before he gets stopped, and just might decide not to try it since his real goal (weeks of lurid headlines after he's dead) has now been denied to him. And so a guy who would have shot a bunch of children, chooses not to do it. Won't always happen, but will sometimes happen. Evey little bit helps.

And if the bad guy goes ahead and starts shooting children anyway, it's more likely he will kill maybe one or two, than kill twenty or thirty. Not perfect, but again every little bit helps.

And if the teacher(s) (or janitors or principal etc.) with a gun happen to be halfway across campus when the bad guy starts shooting, they can still get there a lot quicker than the cops who are five miles away, didn't even hear the shots, and are waiting for a phone call.

Don't "arm teachers". Instead, let all law-abiding adults go armed who choose to.

My apologies if you merely made a semantic error, distinguishing between the two.

[aboutime]

"Arming teachers" is a very bad idea.

Allowing concealed carry by all responsible adults, including teachers, is a very good idea.

If you simply "arm teachers", and I presume give them some kind of training in gun safety and responsible use (i.e. hitting the right target and not the wrong one), then you will wind up with:
(a) some teachers who respond well, carry safely, ignore small provocations, and hit the right target when needed; and
(b) some teachers who don't want to carry, will never have the right viewpoint when carrying, resent having this ugly, heavy thing with them, and might blaze away without sufficient judgement and control, possibly when a genuine bad guy isn't even there.

If you allow all law-abiding adults (including teachers) to carry, and require them to get weapons training to carry on campus, then only the ones who feel they can shoulder the heavy responsibility of carrying a gun will do it, and you will wind up with a much better-suited groups of armed adults present when a genuine bad guy shows up.

An extra, added bennie: The bad guy might think about that before he heads to the local elementary school, realize that he won't be able to rack up the huge body count he was hoping for before he gets stopped, and just might decide not to try it since his real goal (weeks of lurid headlines after he's dead) has now been denied to him. And so a guy who would have shot a bunch of children, chooses not to do it. Won't always happen, but will sometimes happen. Evey little bit helps.

And if the bad guy goes ahead and starts shooting children anyway, it's more likely he will kill maybe one or two, than kill twenty or thirty. Not perfect, but again every little bit helps.

And if the teacher(s) (or janitors or principal etc.) with a gun happen to be halfway across campus when the bad guy starts shooting, they can still get there a lot quicker than the cops who are five miles away, didn't even hear the shots, and are waiting for a phone call.

Don't "arm teachers". Instead, let all law-abiding adults go armed who choose to.

My apologies if you merely made a semantic error, distinguishing between the two.



Something else....everybody seems to forget, or not think about.

The GOOD GUYS who carry concealed weapons....OUTNUMBER the Bad Guys.

Strength in Numbers is always better than Having ZERO on your side.

[Robert A Whit]

"Arming teachers" is a very bad idea.

Allowing concealed carry by all responsible adults, including teachers, is a very good idea.

If you simply "arm teachers", and I presume give them some kind of training in gun safety and responsible use (i.e. hitting the right target and not the wrong one), then you will wind up with:
(a) some teachers who respond well, carry safely, ignore small provocations, and hit the right target when needed; and
(b) some teachers who don't want to carry, will never have the right viewpoint when carrying, resent having this ugly, heavy thing with them, and might blaze away without sufficient judgement and control, possibly when a genuine bad guy isn't even there.

If you allow all law-abiding adults (including teachers) to carry, and require them to get weapons training to carry on campus, then only the ones who feel they can shoulder the heavy responsibility of carrying a gun will do it, and you will wind up with a much better-suited groups of armed adults present when a genuine bad guy shows up.

An extra, added bennie: The bad guy might think about that before he heads to the local elementary school, realize that he won't be able to rack up the huge body count he was hoping for before he gets stopped, and just might decide not to try it since his real goal (weeks of lurid headlines after he's dead) has now been denied to him. And so a guy who would have shot a bunch of children, chooses not to do it. Won't always happen, but will sometimes happen. Evey little bit helps.

And if the bad guy goes ahead and starts shooting children anyway, it's more likely he will kill maybe one or two, than kill twenty or thirty. Not perfect, but again every little bit helps.

And if the teacher(s) (or janitors or principal etc.) with a gun happen to be halfway across campus when the bad guy starts shooting, they can still get there a lot quicker than the cops who are five miles away, didn't even hear the shots, and are waiting for a phone call.

Don't "arm teachers". Instead, let all law-abiding adults go armed who choose to.

My apologies if you merely made a semantic error, distinguishing between the two.

Actually I presented several deterrants that teachers should have made available to them.

[Kathianne]

20 minutes is far too long to allow a killer hunt soft targets.

Aside from arming teachers, and not every teacher has to be armed, more has to be done.

For instance, tasers for all teachers. Pepper spray for all teachers.

Killers fear being confronted and that is why so many kill themselves when they reach a wall.

Build the wall first. Make the wall strong.

Arming teachers is part of the problem solved.

This is not a refuttal by the way. Very good article by a man that trained many to use guns in such situations.

I noted how snotty Dianne Feinstein got over the talk by the NRA. You would think by the reaction of the Democrats we wanted kids killed rather than saved. They want guns out of our lives.

No, I will not turn my gun over to them. They are not my friends.

Teachers are not and should not be police officers. The gun would be for one reason only, to kill someone trying to harm students or staff. That's it. They need to be trained in shooting and keep those skills up.

Put tazers, etc., in schools, asking for problems.

[Kathianne]

"Arming teachers" is a very bad idea.

Allowing concealed carry by all responsible adults, including teachers, is a very good idea.

If you simply "arm teachers", and I presume give them some kind of training in gun safety and responsible use (i.e. hitting the right target and not the wrong one), then you will wind up with:
(a) some teachers who respond well, carry safely, ignore small provocations, and hit the right target when needed; and
(b) some teachers who don't want to carry, will never have the right viewpoint when carrying, resent having this ugly, heavy thing with them, and might blaze away without sufficient judgement and control, possibly when a genuine bad guy isn't even there.

If you allow all law-abiding adults (including teachers) to carry, and require them to get weapons training to carry on campus, then only the ones who feel they can shoulder the heavy responsibility of carrying a gun will do it, and you will wind up with a much better-suited groups of armed adults present when a genuine bad guy shows up.

An extra, added bennie: The bad guy might think about that before he heads to the local elementary school, realize that he won't be able to rack up the huge body count he was hoping for before he gets stopped, and just might decide not to try it since his real goal (weeks of lurid headlines after he's dead) has now been denied to him. And so a guy who would have shot a bunch of children, chooses not to do it. Won't always happen, but will sometimes happen. Evey little bit helps.

And if the bad guy goes ahead and starts shooting children anyway, it's more likely he will kill maybe one or two, than kill twenty or thirty. Not perfect, but again every little bit helps.

And if the teacher(s) (or janitors or principal etc.) with a gun happen to be halfway across campus when the bad guy starts shooting, they can still get there a lot quicker than the cops who are five miles away, didn't even hear the shots, and are waiting for a phone call.

Don't "arm teachers". Instead, let all law-abiding adults go armed who choose to.

My apologies if you merely made a semantic error, distinguishing between the two.

From the get go it was stated only voluntary, there's no sense in forcing anyone to carry.

[Kathianne]

Second sentence of OP:
Voluntarily of course, no one should be 'required' to carry.


"Arming teachers" is a very bad idea.

Allowing concealed carry by all responsible adults, including teachers, is a very good idea.

If you simply "arm teachers", and I presume give them some kind of training in gun safety and responsible use (i.e. hitting the right target and not the wrong one), then you will wind up with:
(a) some teachers who respond well, carry safely, ignore small provocations, and hit the right target when needed; and
(b) some teachers who don't want to carry, will never have the right viewpoint when carrying, resent having this ugly, heavy thing with them, and might blaze away without sufficient judgement and control, possibly when a genuine bad guy isn't even there.

If you allow all law-abiding adults (including teachers) to carry, and require them to get weapons training to carry on campus, then only the ones who feel they can shoulder the heavy responsibility of carrying a gun will do it, and you will wind up with a much better-suited groups of armed adults present when a genuine bad guy shows up.

An extra, added bennie: The bad guy might think about that before he heads to the local elementary school, realize that he won't be able to rack up the huge body count he was hoping for before he gets stopped, and just might decide not to try it since his real goal (weeks of lurid headlines after he's dead) has now been denied to him. And so a guy who would have shot a bunch of children, chooses not to do it. Won't always happen, but will sometimes happen. Evey little bit helps.

And if the bad guy goes ahead and starts shooting children anyway, it's more likely he will kill maybe one or two, than kill twenty or thirty. Not perfect, but again every little bit helps.

And if the teacher(s) (or janitors or principal etc.) with a gun happen to be halfway across campus when the bad guy starts shooting, they can still get there a lot quicker than the cops who are five miles away, didn't even hear the shots, and are waiting for a phone call.

Don't "arm teachers". Instead, let all law-abiding adults go armed who choose to.

My apologies if you merely made a semantic error, distinguishing between the two.

[Robert A Whit]

"Arming teachers" is a very bad idea.

Allowing concealed carry by all responsible adults, including teachers, is a very good idea.

If you simply "arm teachers", and I presume give them some kind of training in gun safety and responsible use (i.e. hitting the right target and not the wrong one), then you will wind up with:
(a) some teachers who respond well, carry safely, ignore small provocations, and hit the right target when needed; and
(b) some teachers who don't want to carry, will never have the right viewpoint when carrying, resent having this ugly, heavy thing with them, and might blaze away without sufficient judgement and control, possibly when a genuine bad guy isn't even there.

If you allow all law-abiding adults (including teachers) to carry, and require them to get weapons training to carry on campus, then only the ones who feel they can shoulder the heavy responsibility of carrying a gun will do it, and you will wind up with a much better-suited groups of armed adults present when a genuine bad guy shows up.

An extra, added bennie: The bad guy might think about that before he heads to the local elementary school, realize that he won't be able to rack up the huge body count he was hoping for before he gets stopped, and just might decide not to try it since his real goal (weeks of lurid headlines after he's dead) has now been denied to him. And so a guy who would have shot a bunch of children, chooses not to do it. Won't always happen, but will sometimes happen. Evey little bit helps.

And if the bad guy goes ahead and starts shooting children anyway, it's more likely he will kill maybe one or two, than kill twenty or thirty. Not perfect, but again every little bit helps.

And if the teacher(s) (or janitors or principal etc.) with a gun happen to be halfway across campus when the bad guy starts shooting, they can still get there a lot quicker than the cops who are five miles away, didn't even hear the shots, and are waiting for a phone call.

Don't "arm teachers". Instead, let all law-abiding adults go armed who choose to.

My apologies if you merely made a semantic error, distinguishing between the two.

Some teachers will die and go to hell before they will carry a gun. I don't believe teachers should walk around campus with a gun on a belt or concealed. I am puzzled why you said not to arm teachers then spoke in favor of arming teachers???

I think a way needs to be found that is part of the solution.

I believe that I agree with the thrust of your comments. It may have looked to a couple of people that I demand each teacher become a cop. That is not my concept.

I even conditioned my comments on others ideas being welcome.

You reasoned this out very well and left off ad hominum vs my post. Thank you.

[Robert A Whit]

Teachers are not and should not be police officers. The gun would be for one reason only, to kill someone trying to harm students or staff. That's it. They need to be trained in shooting and keep those skills up.

Put tazers, etc., in schools, asking for problems.

I couild be wrong but I suspect that every school has a few teachers that will volunteer to protect stucents. Not saying you would, but some will. We can speak of added pay for those willing to work to save students. I realize by this time you have no interest in providing safety to students.

The use of a weapon, of any kind, against a person intending great harm needs training. Cops get trained. I got trained in the Army. Maybe that is why we don't see eye to eye. I want students protected and came under attack for saying so. Got mocked for speaking of a worse case event. I say forget that then. Don't plan for worse case events. At least i was willing to see if anybody was willing to handle that part of a problem. Guess not.

[Kathianne]

I couild be wrong but I suspect that every school has a few teachers that will volunteer to protect stucents. Not saying you would, but some will. We can speak of added pay for those willing to work to save students. I realize by this time you have no interest in providing safety to students.

The use of a weapon, of any kind, against a person intending great harm needs training. Cops get trained. I got trained in the Army. Maybe that is why we don't see eye to eye. I want students protected and came under attack for saying so. Got mocked for speaking of a worse case event. I say forget that then. Don't plan for worse case events. At least i was willing to see if anybody was willing to handle that part of a problem. Guess not.

What a nonsensical reply considering the OP, which was mine. You try to denigrate me, but only manage to make yourself the fool.

[Little-Acorn]

I am puzzled why you said not to arm teachers then spoke in favor of arming teachers???
That's because I didn't.

Read carefully. And think about what you're reading. You will find yourself puzzled less and less.


You reasoned this out very well
Thank you.


and left off ad hominum vs my post.
I wasn't replying to your post.

[Robert A Whit]

What a nonsensical reply considering the OP, which was mine. You try to denigrate me, but only manage to make yourself the fool.

Well, there is your paranoia in action again. But of course you NEVER post to denigrate me. Sure . And Obama is not president. :rolleyes:

[Kathianne]

Well, there is your paranoia in action again. But of course you NEVER post to denigrate me. Sure . And Obama is not president. :rolleyes:

Logical fallacy. Sorry, you lose. To your query, I do not have to denigrate you, you do fine on your own.

[Robert A Whit]

I'm beginning to come to the realization this may be the best response. Voluntarily of course, no one should be 'required' to carry. However, when seconds count, police are minutes away. In the CT case, 20 minutes: (http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-timeline/index.html)



Very interesting read, which pretty much firmed up where my thinking has been going:

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/

Kathianne, why can't you express your views in a few statements that inform and don't confuse

Rather than post your views, you whip out some article the depends on the readers spending their time at full attention and then we have to make assumptions.

Did Kath agree with every word in her long article or not?
What differences does she have?

The time you spend hunting down articles then posting said articles in my opinion get better when those words are your words. Also, a few good ideas in a paragraph top those long articles.

I used to argue with some clown in Florida who loved to post articles running over 15,000 words. And the man refused to relent. Get the hint?

[Robert A Whit]

Logical fallacy. Sorry, you lose. To your query, I do not have to denigrate you, you do fine on your own.

Well, let it be known that you are full of yourself and not too bright either. You make plenty of false claims and whey some of them get repeated against you, you cry foul.

You love a brawl. I have no clue why you do, but clearly fighting with posters gives you joy.

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=601565#post601565)
20 minutes is far too long to allow a killer hunt soft targets.

Aside from arming teachers, and not every teacher has to be armed, more has to be done.

For instance, tasers for all teachers. Pepper spray for all teachers.

Killers fear being confronted and that is why so many kill themselves when they reach a wall.

Build the wall first. Make the wall strong.

Arming teachers is part of the problem solved.

This is not a refuttal by the way. Very good article by a man that trained many to use guns in such situations.

I noted how snotty Dianne Feinstein got over the talk by the NRA. You would think by the reaction of the Democrats we wanted kids killed rather than saved. They want guns out of our lives.

No, I will not turn my gun over to them. They are not my friends.



Teachers are not and should not be police officers. The gun would be for one reason only, to kill someone trying to harm students or staff. That's it. They need to be trained in shooting and keep those skills up.

Put tazers, etc., in schools, asking for problems.

I told Kath that I was NOT refutting her article. Who thinks she refutted my remarks?

Any guesses?

First, I had NOT claimed teachers should be police officers. She lectures me on gun use though I have years of gun training.

Maybe she was not replying to my comments at all. Maybe she wandered off the reservation.

She mocked the idea of giving teachers non lethal protection.

Well, I would put that issue up to a vote to find out what teachers want for protection.

Several armed staff at a school sure can cause criminals to think twice before entering. The idea I have is to have schools not be soft targets, but to have criminals understand that like police stations, enter at your own peril.

I make no claims as to how many should be armed. If the doors are locked, that is time to decide by staff what to do when an alarm sounds that an intruder is trying to enter.

An oz of prevention is worth a lot more than a cure when kids lay about dead.

[fj1200]

:facepalm99:

[Robert A Whit]

:facepalm99:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[revelarts]

Another option as well is NOT pushing Psychotropic drugs that have a known side effect of making people MORE prone to Violent behavior, on people already near the edge.

Where are the cries to legislation against that.

in nearly every cases of these mass shootings the people have been on prescription meds..
maybe THERE's a link. wouldn't hurt to check it SERIOUSLY.