Wyoming Lawmakers Propose ‘Gun Protection’ Legislation

[jimnyc]

Awesome! Other states should follow this lead... Then again, I would have thought the 2nd amendment to the US Constitution was saying the same, but a little added protection to our rights won't hurt.


Several Wyoming lawmakers are proposing legislation designed to protect gun-owners from any potential federal firearm ban. The “Firearms Protection Act” bill, introduced this week, would make any federal law banning semi-automatic firearms or limiting the size of gun magazines unenforceable within the state’s boundaries.

Anyone trying to enforce a federal gun ban could face felony charges under the proposal. It also includes a provision allowing the Wyoming Attorney General’s office to defend any state resident against any federal firearm ban.

http://k2radio.com/wyoming-lawmakers-propose-gun-protection-legislation/

[fj1200]

Awesome! Other states should follow this lead... Then again, I would have thought the 2nd amendment to the US Constitution was saying the same, but a little added protection to our rights won't hurt.



http://k2radio.com/wyoming-lawmakers-propose-gun-protection-legislation/

An unconstitutional law I would guess. Federal legislation trumps state via the Supremacy Clause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause).

[jimnyc]

An unconstitutional law I would guess. Federal legislation trumps state via the Supremacy Clause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause).

I was thinking similarly... but what about all of the Obamacare stuff, and certain states claiming they weren't going to allow it to take effect within their state? Wouldn't that be similar, yet different?

[Robert A Whit]

An unconstitutional law I would guess. Federal legislation trumps state via the Supremacy Clause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause).

Defending the second amendment is unconstitutional?

How?

[Kathianne]

I was thinking similarly... but what about all of the Obamacare stuff, and certain states claiming they weren't going to allow it to take effect within their state? Wouldn't that be similar, yet different?

Considering Chicago gun laws, which to be fair are often the subject of law suits regarding 2nd amendment, seems that states could drag out for quite awhile.

[fj1200]

I was thinking similarly... but what about all of the Obamacare stuff, and certain states claiming they weren't going to allow it to take effect within their state? Wouldn't that be similar, yet different?

Re the ACA, states were allowed to opt out of the exchanges but they're still subject to other parts of the law, mandates, taxes, etc.


Defending the second amendment is unconstitutional?

How?

:rolleyes: State laws that trump Federal laws are unconstitutional.

[cadet]

Re the ACA, states were allowed to opt out of the exchanges but they're still subject to other parts of the law, mandates, taxes, etc.



:rolleyes: State laws that trump Federal laws are unconstitutional.

But Federal laws that are unconstitutional, wouldn't hold up.

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.heritage.org/constitution/#!/articles/6/essays/133/supremacy-clause

While the federal government can prevent states from interfering with federal operations, whether through taxes or otherwise, that does not necessarily mean that the Supremacy Clause is the basis upon which Congress exercises its power to protect federal operations. The valid exercise of any one of Congress's enumerated powers can constitute the constitutional source of a statute that effectively preempts a state law. In particular, the Necessary and Proper Clause would be a vehicle for a statute that explicitly disables state law from operating in an area of federal concern. Thus, for an explicitly preemptive statute to be constitutional, it must be "necessary and proper for carrying into Execution" some enumerated federal power, subject, of course, to the constitutional limits of the Necessary and Proper Clause itself.

I would think that the 2nd amendment shows there is no enumerated power of the federal government to confiscate guns from citizens. Therefore, the supremacy clause would not necessarily invalidate the Wyoming law (if passed).

[taft2012]

:rolleyes: State laws that trump Federal laws are unconstitutional.

I would presume that would include state laws that trump federal marijuana prohibitions and the Defense of Marriage Act?


But Federal laws that are unconstitutional, wouldn't hold up.

We have a "wise Latina" who now handles all such questions. So clearly, there's nothing to be concerned about.

[fj1200]

But Federal laws that are unconstitutional, wouldn't hold up.

The States don't get to decide what is unconstitutional. Besides, if the mythical Federal law were unconstitutional then the state law is moot.


I would think that the 2nd amendment shows there is no enumerated power of the federal government to confiscate guns from citizens. Therefore, the supremacy clause would not necessarily invalidate the Wyoming law (if passed).

See above.


I would presume that would include state laws that trump federal marijuana prohibitions and the Defense of Marriage Act?

There are no laws that trump Federal that I'm aware of. CO's marijuana law, for example, doesn't trump the Feds, they could enforce it I believe they just haven't bothered to yet. And DOMA only defines marriage at the Federal level until determined to be unconstitutional.

[mundame]

But Federal laws that are unconstitutional, wouldn't hold up.

The USSC gets to decide that. And it has already abrogated the Second Amendment many, many times. The first infringement of the Second Amendment was I think in 1936, against tommy guns. Now the Second Amendment doesn't protect most standard military equipment, such as grenades or M-16s. Though it is obvious it was written to cover usual military weaponry, at least.

They already banned assault rifles and high-capacity magazines for ten years. That law was never declared unconstitutional: it just sunsetted. So they'll do it again, that's all.

This is actually business as usual, government getting rid of weapons too dangerous for citizens to misuse to kill each other in large numbers by spree killings. They've been doing this since the '30s, at least.


I would presume that would include state laws that trump federal marijuana prohibitions and the Defense of Marriage Act?

Sure. The feds have explicitly stated they aren't going to enforce the drug laws in those states. What's going on is a slow stealth legalization of marijuana. The drug wars haven't worked out.

As for the Defense of Marriage Act, I knew that was doomed the day it passed.

Maryland just legalized homosexual marriage. The county paper published a front-page photo of two fat older men kissing each other on the lips after they got "married." I expect they'll get a lot of subscription cancellations.........

Well, time passes, things change. Not always for the better.

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by cadet http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=605803#post605803)

But Federal laws that are unconstitutional, wouldn't hold up.

The States don't get to decide what is unconstitutional. Besides, if the mythical Federal law were unconstitutional then the state law is moot.



http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=605880#post605880)

I would think that the 2nd amendment shows there is no enumerated power of the federal government to confiscate guns from citizens. Therefore, the supremacy clause would not necessarily invalidate the Wyoming law (if passed).





See above.


I think you missed my point. I put it in BOLD for you.

For the Supremacy clause to matter in this case, there would have to be an enumerated power of the federal government involved. What enumerated power of the federal government says it can confiscate guns from citizens? None. The 2nd amendment disallows the possibility of an enumerated power of the federal government to do so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enumerated_powers

The enumerated powers are a list of items found in Article I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_One_of_the_United_States_Constitution), Section 8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_One_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Sect ion_8:_Powers_of_Congress) of the U.S. Constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Constitution) that set forth the authoritative capacity of Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Congress).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enumerated_powers#cite_note-usonline-1) In summary, Congress may exercise the powers that the Constitution grants it, subject to explicit restrictions in the Bill of Rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights) and other protections in the Constitution. The Tenth Amendment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution) states that "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Re the ACA, states were allowed to opt out of the exchanges but they're still subject to other parts of the law, mandates, taxes, etc.



:rolleyes: State laws that trump Federal laws are unconstitutional.

A state law reaffirming the absolute validity and authority of the 2nd Amendment isn't trumping federal law, rather its reaffirming a Constitutional amendment. Its reaffirming that state will honor the 2nd Amendment as they are legally bound to do!! Thus pointing out that the Federal government attempts to break that Constitutional guarantee.
Remove the straw from the man you just tried to build amigo.. -Tyr

[fj1200]

I think you missed my point. I put it in BOLD for you.

I didn't miss it, I discarded it.


A state law reaffirming the absolute validity and authority of the 2nd Amendment isn't trumping federal law, rather its reaffirming a Constitutional amendment. Its reaffirming that state will honor the 2nd Amendment as they are legally bound to do!! Thus pointing out that the Federal government attempts to break that Constitutional guarantee.
Remove the straw from the man you just tried to build amigo.. -Tyr

That's opinion. If in fact the mythical Federal law were found constitutional then the state law is unconstitutional. Now whether the Feds can practically enforce said law is a whole 'nother matter.

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=605907#post605907)
I think you missed my point. I put it in BOLD for you.



I didn't miss it, I discarded it.




Then you're an idiot.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I didn't miss it, I discarded it.



That's opinion. If in fact the mythical Federal law were found constitutional then the state law is unconstitutional. Now whether the Feds can practically enforce said law is a whole 'nother matter.

Stop trying to pick daises .. Your --IF-- argument bears no weight. No law invalidatING a Constitutional Amendment is valid to start with much less any Executive Order issued by the reigning dictator now!
APPARENTLY YOU THINK THOSE WYOMING LEGISLATORS ARE ALL DUMBASSES..
WE GET THAT A LOT FROM YOU WHENEVER ANYBODY OPPOSES OBAMA(They must be crazy or dumbasses)! And that is quite revealing too!!
Keep on digging pedro, the hole ain't deep enough yet..-:laugh:--Tyr

[fj1200]

Then you're an idiot.

:rolleyes: Back to your old ways I see. If we were still under the impression that the Federal government was presently restricted to the enumerated powers then yes, I might see your point. However, seeing as we are living with Social Security, Medicare, the Civil Rights Act, etc. under the elasticity of the Necessary & Proper Clause, among others, I think the Supremacy Clause holds far more sway.


Stop trying to pick daises .. Your --IF-- argument bears no weight. No law invalidatING a Constitutional Amendment is valid to start with much less any Executive Order issued by the reigning dictator now!
APPARENTLY YOU THINK THOSE WYOMING LEGISLATORS ARE ALL DUMBASSES..
WE GET THAT A LOT FROM YOU WHENEVER ANYBODY OPPOSES OBAMA(They must be crazy or dumbasses)! And that is quite revealing too!!
Keep on digging pedro, the hole ain't deep enough yet..-:laugh:--Tyr

WTF are you even talking about? I definitely don't think all those WY legislators are "dumbasses" but that doesn't make this particular law worth more than paper. Not everything is about "opposing Obama" for Pete's sake. Try having a whisker of a discussion without going blathertastic on us for once.

[Marcus Aurelius]

...Try having a whisker of a discussion without going blathertastic on us for once.

Physician, heal thyself.

[fj1200]

Physician, heal thyself.

:dunno:

[tailfins]

An unconstitutional law I would guess. Federal legislation trumps state via the Supremacy Clause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause).

Is an Executive Order defined as Federal legislation? Then you have to ask if such a state law would give Wyoming standing as a litigant to challenge Federal gun restrictions.

[fj1200]

Is an Executive Order defined as Federal legislation? Then you have to ask if such a state law would give Wyoming standing as a litigant to challenge Federal gun restrictions.

No, an EO is based on the Constitution or other powers to the Executive granted by legislation. I wouldn't think they would need this law for standing but I could be wrong. I'm sure there will be no shortage of challenges regardless.

[jimnyc]

Here's the question of the week...

Suppose a couple of criminals have 12 guns. 6 of them are your average pistols, maybe a few .9mm and a couple of .40's or .45's. Then they have say 4 semi-auto rifles. Then maybe 2 auto's. All bought illegally of course, as no shops will be selling guns to these thugs.

Now, the President, or via congress, decide to collect and destroy all the guns...

How many of the 12 guns that these criminals own will be turned in to the authorities?

[Marcus Aurelius]

No, an EO is based on the Constitution or other powers to the Executive granted by legislation. I wouldn't think they would need this law for standing but I could be wrong. I'm sure there will be no shortage of challenges regardless.

You really don't understand the Constitution, do you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order

U.S. presidents have issued executive orders since 1785. Although there is no Constitutional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution) provision or statute that explicitly permits executive orders, there is a vague grant of "executive power" given in Article II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Two_of_the_United_States_Constitution), Section 1, Clause 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Two_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Clau se_1:_Executive_Power) of the Constitution, and furthered by the declaration "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed" made in Article II, Section 3, Clause 5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Take_Care_Clause). Most Executive Orders use these Constitutional reasonings as the authorization allowing for their issuance to be justified as part of the President's sworn duties,[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order#cite_note-2) the intent being to help direct officers of the U.S. Executive carry out their delegated duties as well as the normal operations of the federal government: the consequence of failing to comply possibly being the removal from office.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order#cite_note-3)

Presidents use vague language in the Constitution as the justification for issuing Executive Orders.

There is no specific provision in US law that allows for Executive Orders.


Here's the question of the week...

Suppose a couple of criminals have 12 guns. 6 of them are your average pistols, maybe a few .9mm and a couple of .40's or .45's. Then they have say 4 semi-auto rifles. Then maybe 2 auto's. All bought illegally of course, as no shops will be selling guns to these thugs.

Now, the President, or via congress, decide to collect and destroy all the guns...

How many of the 12 guns that these criminals own will be turned in to the authorities?


http://www.rubybeets.com/art-photography/rodin/images/Goose-Egg-tn.jpg

[tailfins]

Here's the question of the week...

Suppose a couple of criminals have 12 guns. 6 of them are your average pistols, maybe a few .9mm and a couple of .40's or .45's. Then they have say 4 semi-auto rifles. Then maybe 2 auto's. All bought illegally of course, as no shops will be selling guns to these thugs.

Now, the President, or via congress, decide to collect and destroy all the guns...

How many of the 12 guns that these criminals own will be turned in to the authorities?

That is a function of how invasive the authorities can get to find such guns.

[jimnyc]

That is a function of how invasive the authorities can get to find such guns.

Well, then that won't be the criminals turning them in, but rather the authorities going in to confiscate them. And if that be the case, I think your average criminal will do more to hide or fight back before relinquishing their weapons. And lastly - do you think these criminals weapons are registered appropriately, stolen perhaps some of them? I don't think the authorities would even know where the overwhelming majority of these weapons are - but they will know where the guns are that belong to most law abiding citizens.

[Marcus Aurelius]

it has become painfully obvious that FJ, once again, has no clue what he's blathering on about.

[fj1200]

You really don't understand the Constitution, do you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order


Presidents use vague language in the Constitution as the justification for issuing Executive Orders.

There is no specific provision in US law that allows for Executive Orders.

Pardon me. Constitutional powers. :rolleyes: We can add you for the nitpick award.


U.S. Presidents have issued executive orders since 1789, usually to help officers and agencies of the executive branch manage the operations within the federal government itself. Executive orders have the full force of law,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order#cite_note-1957print-1) since issuances are typically made in pursuance of certain Acts of Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Congress), some of which specifically delegate to the President some degree of discretionary power (delegated legislation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delegated_legislation)), or are believed to take authority from a power granted directly to the Executive by the Constitution. However, these perceived justifications cited by Presidents when authoring Executive Orders have come under criticism for exceeding Executive authority; at various times throughout U.S. history, challenges to the legal validity or justification for an order have resulted in legal proceedings.

Some selective quoting from you I see.


it has become painfully obvious that FJ, once again, has no clue what he's blathering on about.

:rolleyes:

[Marcus Aurelius]

Pardon me. Constitutional powers. :rolleyes: We can add you for the nitpick award.


U.S. Presidents have issued executive orders since 1789, usually to help officers and agencies of the executive branch manage the operations within the federal government itself. Executive orders have the full force of law,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order#cite_note-1957print-1) since issuances are typically made in pursuance of certain Acts of Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Congress), some of which specifically delegate to the President some degree of discretionary power (delegated legislation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delegated_legislation)), or are believed to take authority from a power granted directly to the Executive by the Constitution. However, these perceived justifications cited by Presidents when authoring Executive Orders have come under criticism for exceeding Executive authority; at various times throughout U.S. history, challenges to the legal validity or justification for an order have resulted in legal proceedings.

Some selective quoting from you I see.



:rolleyes:

selective quoting my left nut, dumb ass. I linked, and quoted the part that supported my comments.

Show me where I said EO's do not have the force of law. Link to that post.

You can't. What I SAID, was...

Presidents use vague language in the Constitution as the justification for issuing Executive Orders.

There is no specific provision in US law that allows for Executive Orders.

Every time you post, you betray more of the stupidity we've come to expect from you.

BTW... 'belief', doese not equal fact.

[fj1200]

selective quoting my left nut, dumb ass. I linked, and quoted the part that supported my comments.

Show me where I said EO's do not have the force of law. Link to that post.

You can't. What I SAID, was...

Yes, and I linked, and quoted the part that supported my comments. And considering that MY initial comment was supported by YOUR link... I'm not quite sure what you're on about.


No, an EO is based on the Constitution or other powers to the Executive granted by legislation.


since issuances are typically made in pursuance of certain Acts of Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Congress), some of which specifically delegate to the President some degree of discretionary power (delegated legislation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delegated_legislation)), or are believed to take authority from a power granted directly to the Executive by the Constitution.

I'll try and dumb this down for you. FJ say, "... granted by legislation." and your link say, "... pursuance of certain acts of Congress." FJ say, "based on Constitution..." and your link say, "... a power granted directly to the Executive by the Constitution." /caveman

And where did I dispute what you said? Other than being wrong about my post that is.


Every time you post, you betray more of the stupidity we've come to expect from you.

BTW... 'belief', doese not equal fact.

Still trying to make yourself out to be more than you are?

[bingster]

Then you're an idiot.

The federal government can make many laws that they perceive are good for the general welfare.

Nobody is talking about confiscating weapons. The gun lobby can't stop saying "Obama wants to take away your guns". If he does want to, he's never said so before. Also, most of the legislation being suggested has been done before to different degrees. There is nothing very scarey here.

What I'd like the gun lobby to talk about is why the NRA has always been against gun registration. 40% of guns purchased in this country are purchased without a background check. Why not have checks done?

These are things the president can do with an executive order. He won't take any thing away with such an order.

This is the scariest question. A huge number of militaristic citizens think this is true. Of course you don't need an ar15 to shoot a deer or protect your home, but to take on the National Guard?

[jimnyc]

What I'd like the gun lobby to talk about is why the NRA has always been against gun registration. 40% of guns purchased in this country are purchased without a background check. Why not have checks done?

These are things the president can do with an executive order. He won't take any thing away with such an order.

First off, Welcome to DP!! :salute:

While I'm not personally opposed to limited checks and such, I don't think registrations will change the problem we face, criminally speaking. Criminals don't give a crap about the laws and whether they change to force registrations and such won't change their outlook. Background checks and registration is 2 different things though. A check may stop a felon or deranged person from making a purchase, but I really don't see what national registrations will do or prevent.


This is the scariest question. A huge number of militaristic citizens think this is true. Of course you don't need an ar15 to shoot a deer or protect your home, but to take on the National Guard?

Using the AR to shoot a deer would be little different than your average hunting rifle, it would just appear different. If I was going to take on the guard or a well trained army, I would rather have a REAL assault weapon, personally.

[tailfins]

What I'd like the gun lobby to talk about is why the NRA has always been against gun registration. 40% of guns purchased in this country are purchased without a background check. Why not have checks done?

These are things the president can do with an executive order. He won't take any thing away with such an order.

There's a problem in this era of political gamesmanship. I don't take leftists at face value. You're kidding yourself if you think the goal is anything less than British-style gun restrictions.

[Marcus Aurelius]

The federal government can make many laws that they perceive are good for the general welfare.

Nobody is talking about confiscating weapons. The gun lobby can't stop saying "Obama wants to take away your guns". If he does want to, he's never said so before. Also, most of the legislation being suggested has been done before to different degrees. There is nothing very scarey here.

you need to better your understanding of the 'general welfare' clause.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause#United_States


The United States Constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution) contains two references to "the General Welfare", one occurring in the Preamble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preamble_to_the_United_States_Constitution) and the other in the Taxing and Spending Clause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxing_and_Spending_Clause). The U.S. Supreme Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States) has held the mention of the clause in the Preamble to the U.S. Constitution "has never been regarded as the source of any substantive power conferred on the Government of the United States or on any of its Departments."[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause#cite_note-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause#cite_note-3)


Moreover, the Supreme Court held the understanding of the General Welfare Clause contained in the Taxing and Spending Clause adheres to the construction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_interpretation) given it by Associate Justice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associate_Justice_of_the_Supreme_Court_of_the_Unit ed_States) Joseph Story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Story) in his 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause#cite_note-Butler-4)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause#cite_note-5) Justice Story concluded that the General Welfare Clause is not a grant of general legislative power,[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause#cite_note-Butler-4)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause#cite_note-6) but a qualification on the taxing power[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause#cite_note-Butler-4)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause#cite_note-7)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause#cite_note-8) which includes within it a federal power to spend federal revenues on matters of general interest to the federal government.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause#cite_note-Butler-4)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause#cite_note-9)[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause#cite_note-10) The Court described Justice Story's view as the "Hamiltonian position",[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause#cite_note-Butler-4) as Alexander Hamilton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Hamilton) had elaborated his view of the taxing and spending powers in his 1791 Report on Manufactures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Report_on_Manufactures). Story, however, attributes the position's initial appearance to Thomas Jefferson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson), in his Opinion on the Bank of the United States.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause#cite_note-11)

As such, these clauses in the U.S. Constitution are an atypical use of a general welfare clause, and are not considered grants of a general legislative power to the federal government.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause#cite_note-12)

[bingster]

First off, Welcome to DP!! :salute:

While I'm not personally opposed to limited checks and such, I don't think registrations will change the problem we face, criminally speaking. Criminals don't give a crap about the laws and whether they change to force registrations and such won't change their outlook. Background checks and registration is 2 different things though. A check may stop a felon or deranged person from making a purchase, but I really don't see what national registrations will do or prevent.

Thanx for the welcome. I realize they are two different things. I think ownership needs to be more transparent in this country.

Also, this isn't completely an debate about criminals. Of course, criminals will get guns if they need them. Machine guns were banned in the 30's and you don't see many criminals using them anymore though.

This is a many faceted issue. Politically, it's impossible to take these guns off of the street. We can have a civil debate about sensible transparency, future limits, and background checks.


you need to better your understanding of the 'general welfare' clause.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause#United_States

Again, as I said, all of these measures have passed in the past and have survived constitutional scrutiny.


Using the AR to shoot a deer would be little different than your average hunting rifle, it would just appear different. If I was going to take on the guard or a well trained army, I would rather have a REAL assault weapon, personally.

Actually, being former military myself, I think you can take on the National Guard with a good wrist rocket, but the point is that ar15's are not necessary to hunt or defend your apartment.

[jimnyc]

Thanx for the welcome. I realize they are two different things. I think ownership needs to be more transparent in this country.

Also, this isn't completely an debate about criminals. Of course, criminals will get guns if they need them. Machine guns were banned in the 30's and you don't see many criminals using them anymore though.

This is a many faceted issue. Politically, it's impossible to take these guns off of the street. We can have a civil debate about sensible transparency, future limits, and background checks.

I can agree to a solution being in there somewhere. But you know this latest round of calls for new regulations and bans is based on the school tragedy as well as others. And I just think that any of these changes won't affect crime stats here in America. In the majority of cases, where you have the strictest regulations and bans, the more gun crime and murders you have. And in the majority of cases, where the most guns are you have less crime and less gun murders. Of course there are some set apart from this... But the point being, I thought the latest ruckus was about stopping these tragedies, and the things on the table thus far will do little to nothing to stop these criminals.


Actually, being former military myself, I think you can take on the National Guard with a good wrist rocket, but the point is that ar15's are not necessary to hunt or defend your apartment.

Maybe not necessary, but wouldn't be any different than a standard hunting rifle & many handguns - other than it looks scarier. But the firing rate and power - there are scarier handguns than an AR15.

[bingster]

Maybe not necessary, but wouldn't be any different than a standard hunting rifle & many handguns - other than it looks scarier. But the firing rate and power - there are scarier handguns than an AR15.

Checking out former bans, I don't have much faith in passing an assault weapons ban. They are usually full of holes and don't limit much.

We can get rid of the higher clip-sizes, close the gun-show loophole, universal registration and background checks.

I dismiss the concept of violent games and movies. The whole world has these and a heck of a lot less gun death.

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jimnyc http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=605710#post605710)
I was thinking similarly... but what about all of the Obamacare stuff, and certain states claiming they weren't going to allow it to take effect within their state? Wouldn't that be similar, yet different?



Re the ACA, states were allowed to opt out of the exchanges but they're still subject to other parts of the law, mandates, taxes, etc.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=605715#post605715)
Defending the second amendment is unconstitutional?

How?




State laws that trump Federal laws are unconstitutional.

Way to go. The Constitution trumps any attempts to make an illegal Federal law.

What you need to do is defend the Federal Constitution that protects our right to keep and bear arms.

And I don't believe the Constitution is speaking of short sleeved shirts.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by bingster http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=606016#post606016)
Thanx for the welcome. I realize they are two different things. I think ownership needs to be more transparent in this country.

Also, this isn't completely an debate about criminals. Of course, criminals will get guns if they need them. Machine guns were banned in the 30's and you don't see many criminals using them anymore though.



By Jimnyc
This is a many faceted issue. Politically, it's impossible to take these guns off of the street. We can have a civil debate about sensible transparency, future limits, and background checks.



I can agree to a solution being in there somewhere. But you know this latest round of calls for new regulations and bans is based on the school tragedy as well as others. And I just think that any of these changes won't affect crime stats here in America. In the majority of cases, where you have the strictest regulations and bans, the more gun crime and murders you have. And in the majority of cases, where the most guns are you have less crime and less gun murders. Of course there are some set apart from this... But the point being, I thought the latest ruckus was about stopping these tragedies, and the things on the table thus far will do little to nothing to stop these criminals.

Machine guns are not banned by the Feds. But one must obtain a permit for one of them.

Does transparency mean that I must post a sign on the building stating I am armed? That is not a bad idea. I bet if each person had such a sign on the building, it would go a long ways to cutting down crime.

[aboutime]

Maybe not necessary, but wouldn't be any different than a standard hunting rifle & many handguns - other than it looks scarier. But the firing rate and power - there are scarier handguns than an AR15.


jimnyc. The way I see all of this is. The NRA knows from past experience. Just because some Senator, or Vice President who speaks for the President says...WE DON'T WANT TO TAKE AWAY ALL GUNS....does not mean THEY DO NOT PLAN ON DOING IT LATER.

First, they take the small step of banning one kind of weapon. Next. They ban the size of magazines, then the number of bullets purchased. Then they find another reason to ban another kind of weapon, and the bullets. IT ALL HAPPENS ONE STEP AT A TIME until...they finally have enough power...IN VOTES...to go further, and take away more.

Then...as we are already hearing. Politicians just declare the CONSTITUTION and the Amendments, OLD, and USELESS.

And what do we get in return????

As Billy Joel once sang it "BACK IN THE U.S.S.R"....with Socialism, and Communism the LEFT DENIES, but fools the Uneducated to trust.

[bingster]

I can agree to a solution being in there somewhere. But you know this latest round of calls for new regulations and bans is based on the school tragedy as well as others. And I just think that any of these changes won't affect crime stats here in America. In the majority of cases, where you have the strictest regulations and bans, the more gun crime and murders you have. And in the majority of cases, where the most guns are you have less crime and less gun murders. Of course there are some set apart from this... But the point being, I thought the latest ruckus was about stopping these tragedies, and the things on the table thus far will do little to nothing to stop these criminals.

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I just grabbed this jpeg and have seen many like it. I see more gun murders in states with less control, not less.
(sorry haven't figured out how to use pictures yet)

[bingster]

You're definitely right about these initiatives not preventing another sandy hook. We need to break out of the habit of being afraid to have this debate. If we can pass a couple of things lives will be saved. The more we can pass now, the more chances we can do more later. Doing nothing is deadly. We have a problem in this country and it isn't violent movies or video games. The only difference between our country and every other industrialized country in the world is a bunch of guns and little regulation.

It's a little funny that we can't ever get anything done related to gun control, yet the conservatives have virtually overturned Roe v Wade one state at a time, and it's open season on voter's rights.

[bingster]

No background checks for 40% of guns, but a 95 year old grannie can't use her expired driver's license to vote. Incredible.

[aboutime]

You're definitely right about these initiatives not preventing another sandy hook. We need to break out of the habit of being afraid to have this debate. If we can pass a couple of things lives will be saved. The more we can pass now, the more chances we can do more later. Doing nothing is deadly. We have a problem in this country and it isn't violent movies or video games. The only difference between our country and every other industrialized country in the world is a bunch of guns and little regulation.

It's a little funny that we can't ever get anything done related to gun control, yet the conservatives have virtually overturned Roe v Wade one state at a time, and it's open season on voter's rights.


bingster, or whoever you are. That is all BS. The U.S. already has possibly thousands of gun laws on the books, and until the Fed, and the States begin to observe, and administer to the the present laws. Making more Political games called Gun Control is useless.
You sound like one of the Whiners who are Politicians from the left...always finding more excuses to make new laws, rather than following or using the present laws...MOST OF WHICH are useless.
You sound like Obama.

[jimnyc]

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I just grabbed this jpeg and have seen many like it. I see more gun murders in states with less control, not less.
(sorry haven't figured out how to use pictures yet)

Death rate does not equal murder rate. But keep in mind, you can't always go by an entire state. Sometimes it's jurisdictions, where some areas are different. Like Chicago, NYC, Los Angeles...

I'm embarrassed to use the following link, as this guy is a bit loopy for me, and a conspiracy theorist, but I'm too lazy to look up another site that has a lot of info compiled in one area:

http://www.infowars.com/statistics-prove-more-guns-less-crime/


No background checks for 40% of guns, but a 95 year old grannie can't use her expired driver's license to vote. Incredible.

At least a 20 something WHITE kid would be able to go and vote as a 60yr old black man named Eric Holder, thanks to Democrats. :lol:

[Robert A Whit]

No, an EO is based on the Constitution or other powers to the Executive granted by legislation. I wouldn't think they would need this law for standing but I could be wrong. I'm sure there will be no shortage of challenges regardless.

Executive orders do not even apply to all federal workers much less to states.

For instance, Obama's orders do not apply to the federal workers in the US Supreme court nor do they apply to workers that work for Congress.

The very idea he can order states around under any of your clauses is like you are zooming us all. And finally, his executive orders have no force of law on we the citizens of this country not working for the man.


No background checks for 40% of guns, but a 95 year old grannie can't use her expired driver's license to vote. Incredible.

Not connected. So, you claim there are 60 percent of us suffering background checks so now many grannies in how many states can't use an expired license to drive or vote?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You're definitely right about these initiatives not preventing another sandy hook. We need to break out of the habit of being afraid to have this debate. If we can pass a couple of things lives will be saved. The more we can pass now, the more chances we can do more later. Doing nothing is deadly. We have a problem in this country and it isn't violent movies or video games. The only difference between our country and every other industrialized country in the world is a bunch of guns and little regulation.

It's a little funny that we can't ever get anything done related to gun control, yet the conservatives have virtually overturned Roe v Wade one state at a time, and it's open season on voter's rights.

Hey doofus, biggest problem is gun free zones. These shootings are happening there for a reason. Its called -- hold on jethro, -- get your pencil and paper to write this down--

--NO ARMED OPPOSITION !!!!!!----
Guess who were the big supporters and creators of gun free zones? Thats right , dumbasses like you!-Tyr

[Robert A Whit]

You're definitely right about these initiatives not preventing another sandy hook. We need to break out of the habit of being afraid to have this debate. If we can pass a couple of things lives will be saved. The more we can pass now, the more chances we can do more later. Doing nothing is deadly. We have a problem in this country and it isn't violent movies or video games. The only difference between our country and every other industrialized country in the world is a bunch of guns and little regulation.

It's a little funny that we can't ever get anything done related to gun control, yet the conservatives have virtually overturned Roe v Wade one state at a time, and it's open season on voter's rights.

Too much hyperbole for most of us I suspect.

Roe was decided on one premise only. Privacy rights. Some how privacy included killing children. How can you support millions of kids dying to the hands of the mother yet worry about guns so much?


The federal government can make many laws that they perceive are good for the general welfare.

Nobody is talking about confiscating weapons. The gun lobby can't stop saying "Obama wants to take away your guns". If he does want to, he's never said so before. Also, most of the legislation being suggested has been done before to different degrees. There is nothing very scarey here.

So, you are saying in other words that the law they propose won't cure the problems they act like they want to cure?

If they don't take guns away, how can they stop criminals from killing people?


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by fj1200 http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=605777#post605777) Weak argument
Re the ACA, states were allowed to opt out of the exchanges but they're still subject to other parts of the law, mandates, taxes, etc.



:rolleyes: State laws that trump Federal laws are unconstitutional.



Strong argument

A state law reaffirming the absolute validity and authority of the 2nd Amendment isn't trumping federal law, rather its reaffirming a Constitutional amendment. Its reaffirming that state will honor the 2nd Amendment as they are legally bound to do!! Thus pointing out that the Federal government attempts to break that Constitutional guarantee.
Remove the straw from the man you just tried to build amigo.. -Tyr

Case of poor argument followed by great argument

[fj1200]

Executive orders do not even apply to all federal workers much less to states.

For instance, Obama's orders do not apply to the federal workers in the US Supreme court nor do they apply to workers that work for Congress.

The very idea he can order states around under any of your clauses is like you are zooming us all. And finally, his executive orders have no force of law on we the citizens of this country not working for the man.

You seem to be confused about what I am saying. Besides there appear to be many who are very afraid of what he may attempt via EO.


Case of poor argument followed by great argument

The fact that you consider the Supremacy Clause a poor argument is concerning. The following "great argument" is based on opinion and zero information about what the Feds may attempt.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Case of poor argument followed by great argument


:beer:... Thanks RW..

FJ gets it ,now that its been explained to him...;)--Tyr

[bingster]

bingster, or whoever you are. That is all BS. The U.S. already has possibly thousands of gun laws on the books, and until the Fed, and the States begin to observe, and administer to the the present laws. Making more Political games called Gun Control is useless.
You sound like one of the Whiners who are Politicians from the left...always finding more excuses to make new laws, rather than following or using the present laws...MOST OF WHICH are useless.
You sound like Obama.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--> I’ve been having an intellectual conversation with reasonable people regarding this issue and have restrained myself from using divisive language and calling names. You call me a “Whiner”, I prefer “Liberal” thank you.
Liberals freed the slaves; they gave women and minorities the vote and legal equality in this nation. Liberals built this country’s safety net. A safety net, by the way, that is enjoyed by a majority of conservatives, thank you very much! (67% of Republicans-as opposed to 64% of Democrats do not want any cuts to Medicare or Social Security). Romney’s “47%” most likely was at least 67% Republican-just think of Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana (food stamps)-not to mention Florida (social security).
Conservatives, on the other hand, have consistently opposed everything in the last paragraph.
It’s legal in this country to sell arms to people on the terrorist watch lists. Al Qaeda put out a training video heralding how ridiculously easy it is to buy guns in our country. There are no background checks required for gun show or on-line purchases. Anybody can sell their private guns to anybody. You can have your gun “stolen” without reporting it. There is no national registry for gun owners so there is nobody supervising or preventing bad guys from getting the guns. You’d think the ATF would handle that but the NRA made sure laws were passed that practically neutered the ATF. NRA gets two thirds of its money from gun manufacturers, so you know they don’t give a crap about safety.
Liberals just want to slow the carnage. 3500 people die every year by a gunshot. It’s painfully obvious that the only important difference between our country and every industrialized country in the world is an abundance of guns and very weak control. I don’t want to take anything away from anybody. I just think it’s important not to legally arm crazy people, criminals, terrorists, and, frankly, people who want to overthrow the government.
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[jimnyc]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--> I’ve been having an intellectual conversation with reasonable people regarding this issue and have restrained myself from using divisive language and calling names. You call me a “Whiner”, I prefer “Liberal” thank you.
Liberals freed the slaves; they gave women and minorities the vote and legal equality in this nation. Liberals built this country’s safety net. A safety net, by the way, that is enjoyed by a majority of conservatives, thank you very much! (67% of Republicans-as opposed to 64% of Democrats do not want any cuts to Medicare or Social Security). Romney’s “47%” most likely was at least 67% Republican-just think of Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana (food stamps)-not to mention Florida (social security).
Conservatives, on the other hand, have consistently opposed everything in the last paragraph.
It’s legal in this country to sell arms to people on the terrorist watch lists. Al Qaeda put out a training video heralding how ridiculously easy it is to buy guns in our country. There are no background checks required for gun show or on-line purchases. Anybody can sell their private guns to anybody. You can have your gun “stolen” without reporting it. There is no national registry for gun owners so there is nobody supervising or preventing bad guys from getting the guns. You’d think the ATF would handle that but the NRA made sure laws were passed that practically neutered the ATF. NRA gets two thirds of its money from gun manufacturers, so you know they don’t give a crap about safety.
Liberals just want to slow the carnage. 3500 people die every year by a gunshot. It’s painfully obvious that the only important difference between our country and every industrialized country in the world is an abundance of guns and very weak control. I don’t want to take anything away from anybody. I just think it’s important not to legally arm crazy people, criminals, terrorists, and, frankly, people who want to overthrow the government.
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As to the red portion - Just shy of 2,000 Americans die yearly by knives. When are you calling for regulating or banning them?

[bingster]

As to the red portion - Just shy of 2,000 Americans die yearly by knives. When are you calling for regulating or banning them?

You can't control everything in life. We can stop assault weapons, and we can institute the other items I mentioned. The hammer excuse is redundant. There was another attack in China on the same day as the sandy hook shootings. 21 children were attacked with a knife. The huge difference was, besides the country and weapon, was that they all survived. You usually can't kill 28 people quickly with a knife. You can with an ar15 and a high qty clip.

[Missileman]

I’ve been having an intellectual conversation with reasonable people regarding this issue and have restrained myself from using divisive language and calling names. You call me a “Whiner”, I prefer “Liberal” thank you.
Liberals freed the slaves; they gave women and minorities the vote and legal equality in this nation. Liberals built this country’s safety net. A safety net, by the way, that is enjoyed by a majority of conservatives, thank you very much! (67% of Republicans-as opposed to 64% of Democrats do not want any cuts to Medicare or Social Security). Romney’s “47%” most likely was at least 67% Republican-just think of Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana (food stamps)-not to mention Florida (social security).
Conservatives, on the other hand, have consistently opposed everything in the last paragraph.
It’s legal in this country to sell arms to people on the terrorist watch lists. Al Qaeda put out a training video heralding how ridiculously easy it is to buy guns in our country. There are no background checks required for gun show or on-line purchases. Anybody can sell their private guns to anybody. You can have your gun “stolen” without reporting it. There is no national registry for gun owners so there is nobody supervising or preventing bad guys from getting the guns. You’d think the ATF would handle that but the NRA made sure laws were passed that practically neutered the ATF. NRA gets two thirds of its money from gun manufacturers, so you know they don’t give a crap about safety.
Liberals just want to slow the carnage. 3500 people die every year by a gunshot. It’s painfully obvious that the only important difference between our country and every industrialized country in the world is an abundance of guns and very weak control. I don’t want to take anything away from anybody. I just think it’s important not to legally arm crazy people, criminals, terrorists, and, frankly, people who want to overthrow the government.


The ideas being thrown around aren't about denying access to people who shouldn't be legally armed, they're talking about banning certain types of weapons to law abiding citizens. Meth and coke and heroin are all totally illegal and the cops and feds spend billions to keep it off the streets. Last I checked, there's not a drug possession problem among law-abiding citizens. They can pass all the laws they want, the criminals will remain armed. Besides, the 2nd isn't about guns used in crimes or guns used in self-defense. The 2nd protects the right of citizens to be able to resist an enemy whether foreign or domestic with a gun should need arise, PERIOD.

[bingster]

You can't control everything in life. We can stop assault weapons, and we can institute the other items I mentioned. The hammer excuse is redundant. There was another attack in China on the same day as the sandy hook shootings. 21 children were attacked with a knife. The huge difference was, besides the country and weapon, was that they all survived. You usually can't kill 28 people quickly with a knife. You can with an ar15 and a high qty clip.

When I mentioned "hammer excuse" I was referring to a report that more people die per year by hammers than assault weapons. I'll bet, however, they died, mostly, one at a time.

[jimnyc]

You can't control everything in life. We can stop assault weapons, and we can institute the other items I mentioned. The hammer excuse is redundant. There was another attack in China on the same day as the sandy hook shootings. 21 children were attacked with a knife. The huge difference was, besides the country and weapon, was that they all survived. You usually can't kill 28 people quickly with a knife. You can with an ar15 and a high qty clip.

I meant to ask as well, and can't believe I didn't - the things I bolded in my prior post, if you can give credible links to back them up.

As to this answer. Why can you control a gun and not a knife? If the goal is to prevent loss of life, doesn't it make sense to limit the weapons being used - hence banning certain guns?

And I'm unsure why you keep putting an AR15 on display, it's no different than a regular 'ol hunting rifle, just made to look different. As for clips, I have no problem with a limit on clip sizes. BUT, I don't think it makes a difference. An AR15 - OR ANY HANDGUN - take an AR15, with a 10 round clip, and 3 clips Vs. an AR15 with a 30 round clip. The first will have to swap clips 2 x @ approximately 1-2 seconds per change. Tell me, the 4 seconds max you saved in swapping clips, what has it done towards preventing anything, or making things safer?

[bingster]

The ideas being thrown around aren't about denying access to people who shouldn't be legally armed, they're talking about banning certain types of weapons to law abiding citizens. Meth and coke and heroin are all totally illegal and the cops and feds spend billions to keep it off the streets. Last I checked, there's not a drug possession problem among law-abiding citizens. They can pass all the laws they want, the criminals will remain armed. Besides, the 2nd isn't about guns used in crimes or guns used in self-defense. The 2nd protects the right of citizens to be able to resist an enemy whether foreign or domestic with a gun should need arise, PERIOD.

Really good point on the 2nd amendment. You just made the case why some people think the amendment is antiquated. It was created, by the way before we had a standing army, adequate police forces, FBI, etc....

And why do law-abiding citizens need ar15's with 100 round drums? If you're doing it to over-throw the government someday, I don't consider you law-abiding. I think you're guilty of conspiracy, at least.

[jimnyc]

And why do law-abiding citizens need ar15's

You keep bringing up the AR15 specifically. Being that it's not even an assault weapon, and is your everyday semi-auto rifle made to look like a military rifle - why are you continuing to repeat the guns name as if it's a military grade weapon? You do know it's just a plain 'ol rifle, no? One pull of the trigger and one shot.

[aboutime]

You can't control everything in life. We can stop assault weapons, and we can institute the other items I mentioned. The hammer excuse is redundant. There was another attack in China on the same day as the sandy hook shootings. 21 children were attacked with a knife. The huge difference was, besides the country and weapon, was that they all survived. You usually can't kill 28 people quickly with a knife. You can with an ar15 and a high qty clip.


bingster. How bout this. You bring your Liberal Knife to a gunfight, any kind of gun at all. Stand twenty paces from the person with the gun, and predict WHO would win the Liberal, Kindness, Appeasement fight?

You and every politician looking to make a name for themselves since CT have been doing nothing but trying to convince, other appeasers that assault weapons are to blame when ALL OF YOU Intentionally IGNORE the person(s) who held the weapons, and made them operate. So. Prove to all of us how an assault weapon...ALONE...is responsible for your LIBERAL illiteracy?

[bingster]

I meant to ask as well, and can't believe I didn't - the things I bolded in my prior post, if you can give credible links to back them up.

As to this answer. Why can you control a gun and not a knife? If the goal is to prevent loss of life, doesn't it make sense to limit the weapons being used - hence banning certain guns?

And I'm unsure why you keep putting an AR15 on display, it's no different than a regular 'ol hunting rifle, just made to look different. As for clips, I have no problem with a limit on clip sizes. BUT, I don't think it makes a difference. An AR15 - OR ANY HANDGUN - take an AR15, with a 10 round clip, and 3 clips Vs. an AR15 with a 30 round clip. The first will have to swap clips 2 x @ approximately 1-2 seconds per change. Tell me, the 4 seconds max you saved in swapping clips, what has it done towards preventing anything, or making things safer?

I’ve been having an intellectual conversation with reasonable people regarding this issue and have restrained myself from using divisive language and calling names. You call me a “Whiner”, I prefer “Liberal” thank you.
Liberals freed the slaves1; they gave women and minorities the vote2 and legal equality in this nation. Liberals built this country’s safety net3. A safety net, by the way, that is enjoyed by a majority of conservatives, thank you very much! (67% of Republicans-as opposed to 64% of Democrats do not want any cuts to Medicare or Social Security). Romney’s “47%” most likely was at least 67% Republican4-just think of Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana (food stamps)-not to mention Florida (social security).
Conservatives, on the other hand, have consistently opposed everything in the last paragraph.
It’s legal in this country to sell arms to people on the terrorist watch lists5. Al Qaeda put out a training video heralding how ridiculously easy it is to buy guns in our country. There are no background checks required for gun show or on-line purchases. Anybody can sell their private guns to anybody. You can have your gun “stolen” without reporting it. There is no national registry for gun owners so there is nobody supervising or preventing bad guys from getting the guns. You’d think the ATF would handle that but the NRA made sure laws were passed that practically neutered the ATF. NRA gets two thirds of its money from gun manufacturers, so you know they don’t give a crap about safety6.
Liberals just want to slow the carnage. 3500 people die every year by a gunshot. It’s painfully obvious that the only important difference between our country and every industrialized country in the world is an abundance of guns and very weak control. I don’t want to take anything away from anybody. I just think it’s important not to legally arm crazy people, criminals, terrorists, and, frankly, people who want to overthrow the government.

Good job, guess I'll have to substantiate some stuff.
1. Lincoln was a liberal Republican. In fact, at the time Republicans were called "radicals". You can't honestly read a book about Lincoln and compare the Democrats with today's Republican. Over the last 150 years, the parties have switched names.
2. Wilson gave women the vote. Kennedy and Johnson gave the vote to blacks (literally, they had the vote in the 1860's but Jim Crow laws prevented it.
3. FDR gave us Social Security and Johnson gave us Medicare.
4. 9 out of 10 of the states that get the highest amount of federal money vs how much the state pays in federal income taxes are red states. (Tax Policy Center). Romney beat Obama on the elderly vote (usually goes Republican). Military has always leaned Republican while combat soldiers do not pay income taxes. The number 67%, I'll admit was a guess-but think about it.
5. AP and need to know website
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/the-daily-need/on-terrorist-watch-list-but-allowed-to-buy-guns/8927/
6. You got me there. I read somewhere that only 1/3 of their revenue came from dues and that the rest came from gun manufacturers. I couldn't find anything on line just now, but I find something, I'll send it to you. It makes sense, also, when (I've heard) that 70% of NRA members (I know there's a study on this one) believe in background checks. NRA leadership won't even consider this.

[Missileman]

You can't control everything in life. We can stop assault weapons, and we can institute the other items I mentioned. The hammer excuse is redundant. There was another attack in China on the same day as the sandy hook shootings. 21 children were attacked with a knife. The huge difference was, besides the country and weapon, was that they all survived. You usually can't kill 28 people quickly with a knife. You can with an ar15 and a high qty clip.

You can kill just as quickly with a double-barrel shotgun and a bag of shells...perhaps faster. What's always funny are the people who argue against "assault rifles" who by their own words make it perfectly obvious they know less than nothing about guns. There are a lot more people killed in the US with handguns than are killed with "assault rifles".

[bingster]

bingster. How bout this. You bring your Liberal Knife to a gunfight, any kind of gun at all. Stand twenty paces from the person with the gun, and predict WHO would win the Liberal, Kindness, Appeasement fight?

You and every politician looking to make a name for themselves since CT have been doing nothing but trying to convince, other appeasers that assault weapons are to blame when ALL OF YOU Intentionally IGNORE the person(s) who held the weapons, and made them operate. So. Prove to all of us how an assault weapon...ALONE...is responsible for your LIBERAL illiteracy?

Typical hoodlum response. We shouldn't be in a fight (Liberal Knife to a gunfight). If you're accusing me of appeasing, are you the enemy? I'm not looking to make a name for myself, I want to improve our country and we're headed the wrong way with your wild west ideas. The wild west is over, cowboy.

I never said assault weapons ALONE are responsible. They are not necessary for hunting or protecting yourself. They would be helpful if you want to overthrow the government, but why don't you guys try to win an election instead?

Background checks and national registry is most important.

Illiteracy is not an issue. This is supposed to be a reasonable debate. I'm not calling you dumb, so reciprocate the respect.

[Robert A Whit]

I’ve been having an intellectual conversation with reasonable people regarding this issue and have restrained myself from using divisive language and calling names. You call me a “Whiner”, I prefer “Liberal” thank you.
Liberals freed the slaves; they gave women and minorities the vote and legal equality in this nation. Liberals built this country’s safety net. A safety net, by the way, that is enjoyed by a majority of conservatives, thank you very much! (67% of Republicans-as opposed to 64% of Democrats do not want any cuts to Medicare or Social Security). Romney’s “47%” most likely was at least 67% Republican-just think of Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana (food stamps)-not to mention Florida (social security).
Conservatives, on the other hand, have consistently opposed everything in the last paragraph.
It’s legal in this country to sell arms to people on the terrorist watch lists. Al Qaeda put out a training video heralding how ridiculously easy it is to buy guns in our country. There are no background checks required for gun show or on-line purchases. Anybody can sell their private guns to anybody. You can have your gun “stolen” without reporting it. There is no national registry for gun owners so there is nobody supervising or preventing bad guys from getting the guns. You’d think the ATF would handle that but the NRA made sure laws were passed that practically neutered the ATF. NRA gets two thirds of its money from gun manufacturers, so you know they don’t give a crap about safety.
Liberals just want to slow the carnage. 3500 people die every year by a gunshot. It’s painfully obvious that the only important difference between our country and every industrialized country in the world is an abundance of guns and very weak control. I don’t want to take anything away from anybody. I just think it’s important not to legally arm crazy people, criminals, terrorists, and, frankly, people who want to overthrow the government.


When you said Liberals, why do I get told that Liberals freed the USA yet those Liberals owned slaves? (I think Washijngton for instance easily owned a hundred or more slaves) Also did you know he is this nations moonshine father?

When a person says Liberal, do they mean the Liberals of the Lincoln era, the G. Washington era or the era of today?

They don't mean the same thing in each case.

Liberal comes from liberty. Maybe that is the part you mean to speak of. But Democrats of these days are not Liberals of the Washington era much less the Liberal of the Lincoln era.

The amendment credited with giving women voting rights only told states they can't create rules stopping women from voting. States in fact let women vote. Wyoming for instance. Well before the amendment is what I am talking about.

So why on earth would Washington and his crew ban women from voting?

First look at the electoral college. While you may think it is off topic, it is voting.
Voting for president was not something men or women did in the states. Electors voted for presidents. Each elector was as picked by states. A woman elector could easily have voted for president. I suppose if we dig deep enough, we will find that women did vote for president long before any amendment took place. I also understand that they figured the woman was either a wife or a daughter. And as a family unit, they figured when the man voted, he did so as the family representative. There was no hostility against women intended. Consider it the family version of the electoral college.

Look, I get medicare. I collect Social Security. Who would turn down free booty? I got back every dime i paid into social security in far less than a year. Yup, got all my cash paid in, back.

I am getting money by the sweat of other humans brow. Maybe to you, my getting enormous profits is fair, but if they realize what hit them, how they carry me as if I was their child, they might not see it as a safety net.

Ask any person to tell me who on his block he wants to hand a monthly paycheck to merely for being a citizen. If you suffer having more cash than you need, treat your neighbors. Show them your love.

Here, let me sum this up.

Democrats are experts at taking your money that you earned and turning your money over to me to use as I see fit.

The word fair to them does not extend to all humans, it only extends to those who are collecting, and never to those giving.

Democrats practice a one way street philosophy of life and it makes them insanely jealous of the rich.

Oh and that stuff about Romney. No matter what party one might be, they don't all earn enough to pay taxes to the Feds. That is all Romney tried to say at that meeting not for public consumption.

Any person using that as a smear is not liberal. They are intolerant. They love to smear some person of the republican side.

A gun is merely private property. How can a woman be granted some system under law to kill her so called private property, the baby yet not born, but we are told to suffer background checks and endure permits by some public agent?

There is this ugly little truth called the constitution and it has amendments. Those were to protect all of us from whom?

From the goverment. We need that protection. This government is not without malice. It does things like the RICO act and some complain over the Patriot act too. Though that act is for terrorists. Still democrats come here to complain. Don't try to feed me the nonsense the Feds are just our best friends.

I "ain't" buying that. My gun is my private property. I earned the cash to buy guns. I used to buy them from private people and no law was on the books to stop me. I admit those were the good old days.

When democrats add to the burden of the public with more and more laws, they don't open up more rights, they chip away our rights chip by chip. I get sick of it.

I once was one of you. I changed. I hope you are young enough to do the same thing I did and abandon those democrats.

May I suggest you get your hands on William E Simon's awesome book called A Time for Truth? Don't let who he worked for fool you. When i read the book, I was a very loyal democrat and very biased at that. I read the book not realizing the lesson I would get from it.


Thomas Paine I always recommend too.

Modern Democrats are nothing like our founders. They are not even like Abe Lincoln.

Also, visit my thread on gun facts. When you study it and see the truth, you may want to tell us you changed your mind.

[bingster]

You can kill just as quickly with a double-barrel shotgun and a bag of shells...perhaps faster. What's always funny are the people who argue against "assault rifles" who by their own words make it perfectly obvious they know less than nothing about guns. There are a lot more people killed in the US with handguns than are killed with "assault rifles".

The point of the assault weapons ban is that assault weapons are only necessary to kill a bunch of people. It's the fact that there are no other uses for assault weapons than to take on an army. A pistol is much easier to keep and conceal. Shotguns are used for hunting. There is no possible way we can ban handguns. Assault weapons have been banned and they can be banned again. That's the only reason why that is an issue. I know just about as much about assault weapons as most people. I wasn't raised in the south, but I served my country carrying an M16A2.

[Missileman]

Really good point on the 2nd amendment. You just made the case why some people think the amendment is antiquated. It was created, by the way before we had a standing army, adequate police forces, FBI, etc....

And why do law-abiding citizens need ar15's with 100 round drums? If you're doing it to over-throw the government someday, I don't consider you law-abiding. I think you're guilty of conspiracy, at least.

Being able to defend oneself from a tyrannical government NEVER goes out of style. And you need to brush up on history some. The U.S. was founded by a bunch of people, including militia members, who overthrew their government. THAT goverment had a standing army, navy, and probaly a host of law enforcement.

[Robert A Whit]

Really good point on the 2nd amendment. You just made the case why some people think the amendment is antiquated. It was created, by the way before we had a standing army, adequate police forces, FBI, etc....

And why do law-abiding citizens need ar15's with 100 round drums? If you're doing it to over-throw the government someday, I don't consider you law-abiding. I think you're guilty of conspiracy, at least.

I never heard of an AR-15 with a drum.

I don't know why that gun gets brought up. It is a small caliber weapon as allowed to civilians with no permits. A machine gun needs the federal permit. AR-15s are not machine guns. They may have up to 30 rounds I suppose. The bullet is very small. I don't happen to know how much powder the case has in it but even so, I think to kill humans best one should use a larger caliber weapon. Like the popular 9mm that gets used in most of the mass murders.

[Missileman]

The point of the assault weapons ban is that assault weapons are only necessary to kill a bunch of people. It's the fact that there are no other uses for assault weapons than to take on an army. A pistol is much easier to keep and conceal. Shotguns are used for hunting. There is no possible way we can ban handguns. Assault weapons have been banned and they can be banned again. That's the only reason why that is an issue. I know just about as much about assault weapons as most people. I wasn't raised in the south, but I served my country carrying an M16A2.

So every round of ammo fired from an "assault weapon" kills a bunch of people? The second guarantees the right to keep and bear arms that will allow service in a militia. The Supreme Court ruled as much. A ban will be challenged this time around and lose.


I meant to ask as well, and can't believe I didn't - the things I bolded in my prior post, if you can give credible links to back them up.

As to this answer. Why can you control a gun and not a knife? If the goal is to prevent loss of life, doesn't it make sense to limit the weapons being used - hence banning certain guns?

And I'm unsure why you keep putting an AR15 on display, it's no different than a regular 'ol hunting rifle, just made to look different. As for clips, I have no problem with a limit on clip sizes. BUT, I don't think it makes a difference. An AR15 - OR ANY HANDGUN - take an AR15, with a 10 round clip, and 3 clips Vs. an AR15 with a 30 round clip. The first will have to swap clips 2 x @ approximately 1-2 seconds per change. Tell me, the 4 seconds max you saved in swapping clips, what has it done towards preventing anything, or making things safer?

If the idea is to prevent loss of life, then we need to ban automobiles.

[bingster]

When you said Liberals, why do I get told that Liberals freed the USA yet those Liberals owned slaves? (I think Washijngton for instance easily owned a hundred or more slaves) Also did you know he is this nations moonshine father?

When a person says Liberal, do they mean the Liberals of the Lincoln era, the G. Washington era or the era of today?

They don't mean the same thing in each case.

Liberal comes from liberty. Maybe that is the part you mean to speak of. But Democrats of these days are not Liberals of the Washington era much less the Liberal of the Lincoln era.

The amendment credited with giving women voting rights only told states they can't create rules stopping women from voting. States in fact let women vote. Wyoming for instance. Well before the amendment is what I am talking about.

So why on earth would Washington and his crew ban women from voting?

First look at the electoral college. While you may think it is off topic, it is voting.
Voting for president was not something men or women did in the states. Electors voted for presidents. Each elector was as picked by states. A woman elector could easily have voted for president. I suppose if we dig deep enough, we will find that women did vote for president long before any amendment took place. I also understand that they figured the woman was either a wife or a daughter. And as a family unit, they figured when the man voted, he did so as the family representative. There was no hostility against women intended. Consider it the family version of the electoral college.

Look, I get medicare. I collect Social Security. Who would turn down free booty? I got back every dime i paid into social security in far less than a year. Yup, got all my cash paid in, back.

I am getting money by the sweat of other humans brow. Maybe to you, my getting enormous profits is fair, but if they realize what hit them, how they carry me as if I was their child, they might not see it as a safety net.

Ask any person to tell me who on his block he wants to hand a monthly paycheck to merely for being a citizen. If you suffer having more cash than you need, treat your neighbors. Show them your love.

Here, let me sum this up.

Democrats are experts at taking your money that you earned and turning your money over to me to use as I see fit.

The word fair to them does not extend to all humans, it only extends to those who are collecting, and never to those giving.

Democrats practice a one way street philosophy of life and it makes them insanely jealous of the rich.

Oh and that stuff about Romney. No matter what party one might be, they don't all earn enough to pay taxes to the Feds. That is all Romney tried to say at that meeting not for public consumption.

Any person using that as a smear is not liberal. They are intolerant. They love to smear some person of the republican side.

A gun is merely private property. How can a woman be granted some system under law to kill her so called private property, the baby yet not born, but we are told to suffer background checks and endure permits by some public agent?

There is this ugly little truth called the constitution and it has amendments. Those were to protect all of us from whom?

From the goverment. We need that protection. This government is not without malice. It does things like the RICO act and some complain over the Patriot act too. Though that act is for terrorists. Still democrats come here to complain. Don't try to feed me the nonsense the Feds are just our best friends.

I "ain't" buying that. My gun is my private property. I earned the cash to buy guns. I used to buy them from private people and no law was on the books to stop me. I admit those were the good old days.

When democrats add to the burden of the public with more and more laws, they don't open up more rights, they chip away our rights chip by chip. I get sick of it.

I once was one of you. I changed. I hope you are young enough to do the same thing I did and abandon those democrats.

May I suggest you get your hands on William E Simon's awesome book called A Time for Truth? Don't let who he worked for fool you. When i read the book, I was a very loyal democrat and very biased at that. I read the book not realizing the lesson I would get from it.


Thomas Paine I always recommend too.

Modern Democrats are nothing like our founders. They are not even like Abe Lincoln.

Also, visit my thread on gun facts. When you study it and see the truth, you may want to tell us you changed your mind.

First, I have to say that was an AWESOME post. I respect you sir.

I'm not going back to Washington with my "proud to be liberal" speech. I know most of our founders owned slaves. Even Lincoln's wife's family owned slaves. Ending slavery, however, took a "whiner" to do something. The guy I wrote that post for, called me a "whiner" and you read my response. Status quo or pining for the past is for conservatives. It took a liberal Republican president to slowly evolve and pass the 13th to end slavery.

It's going to take a "whiner" now to change the status quo. There frankly isn't another country like us in the world. In this case, that's not a complement. We lead the industrialized world in gun deaths and the only difference is our number of guns and lack of control. Industrialized, civilized, decent countries should have some kind of safety measures to reasonably protect their citizens. We shouldn't have to be part of a local militia, that's what our taxes are for.

Your gun is your private property and I'm not talking about taking it from you. Keep it, but lets stop selling more military-style weapons to our citizens. If we do (I don't think the ban will go through), I think we need to make sure that you are neither a criminal, psychologically unstable, out to overthrow the country, or a terrorist. What is really wrong with that concept?

[aboutime]

If the idea is to prevent loss of life, then we need to ban automobiles.


Or, we could all applaud Obamacare, and allow the bill to become active as written...eventually banning Human beings. That would solve every problem Instantly.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Hey doofus, biggest problem is gun free zones. These shootings are happening there for a reason. Its called -- hold on jethro, -- get your pencil and paper to write this down--

--NO ARMED OPPOSITION !!!!!!----
Guess who were the big supporters and creators of gun free zones? Thats right , dumbasses like you!-Tyr

Who will you be next week? You remind me of somebody. Somebody that also replied to everybody posting but me.
My point was too direct, too blatant and too insulting for your fragile ego was it?
No, it was TOO DAMN POINTEDLY TRUTHFUL!
WHAT NAME WILL YOU USE NEXT TIME?--Tyr

[bingster]

So every round of ammo fired from an "assault weapon" kills a bunch of people? The second guarantees the right to keep and bear arms that will allow service in a militia. The Supreme Court ruled as much. A ban will be challenged this time around and lose.

You'd have to print the decision to prove that the Supreme Court actually stated "allow service in a militia". I don't believe that it did. I think the decision pretty much decided that you get to keep a gun for hunting and protecting yourself. Chalk up the " allow service in a militia" part to be as atiquated as the "3/5 of a person" part.

I didn't say anything about "So every round of ammo fired from an "assault weapon" kills a bunch of people". Let's try this again. Name one thing that an assault weapon is better for than a handgun, hunting rifle, or shotgun (except, as you said "serving in a militia").

You actually made my point.

[Robert A Whit]

The .223 Remington is the most widely-used centerfire rifle cartridge in the developed world. In its 5.56x45 military form, it is the primary issue ammunition for the U.S. Military and NATO forces. It is a popular sporting cartridge, and probably the most commonly used centerfire varmint cartridge. In our Readers' Poll, the .223 Rem (both standard and improved) ranked first among preferred varmint rounds. The .223 Rem is efficient and versatile. It can sling 40-grainers past 3650 fps, and deliver 90gr VLDs accurately at 1000 yards. Its parent case, the .222 Remington, was once a mainstay of benchrest competition. Today, with custom match bullets, the .223 Remington can still deliver impressive accuracy, shooting well under quarter-MOA in a good rifle.

I call your attention to salient FACTS. (when you see the photo of the cartridge, take note it is smaller. I put a ruler to the photo and the actual size is a bit larger. See end of post.)

40 grain ammo is tiny. Even 90 grain is small.

Look at the ammo for the 30.06. I believe that the bullet is about 220 grains. That is over 5 times the hitting power as the .223.

Military hand weapons, rifles and pistols, of those calibers are to hurt the enemy. Disable the guy so he can't fight.

We were taught in the Army that even the 30.06 bullet by being brass coated was to do more injure the enemy than kill them. A lucky hit to the heart or brain took the enemy out but the body is much larger and one might hit the enemy anyplace.

If you want to kill a human, use commercial hunting ammo that is lead. It is not brass coated.

But a 40 grain bullet?

The way he killed those kids was by putting the gun to their heads and pulling the trigger. It did not take a machine gun to do that.

Even so, i bet the AR-15 could not fire on automatic. (just about 1.5 larger than photo)

4294

[bingster]

Or, we could all applaud Obamacare, and allow the bill to become active as written...eventually banning Human beings. That would solve every problem Instantly.

Was the banning human beings part a reference to Sarah Palen? Really, you need to turn off Fox News.


Who will you be next week? You remind me of somebody. Somebody that also replied to everybody posting but me.
My point was too direct, too blatant and too insulting for your fragile ego was it?
No, it was TOO DAMN POINTEDLY TRUTHFUL!
WHAT NAME WILL YOU USE NEXT TIME?--Tyr

So the answer is to do like Sherif Arpaoe and stick a bunch of his vigilante posse in the schools to fight the bad guys? People were armed in Columbine and today's school shootings. Who's going to pay for the cops without raising taxes? Are you for higher taxes?

I always use "Bingster"

[Robert A Whit]

First, I have to say that was an AWESOME post. I respect you sir.

I'm not going back to Washington with my "proud to be liberal" speech. I know most of our founders owned slaves. Even Lincoln's wife's family owned slaves. Ending slavery, however, took a "whiner" to do something. The guy I wrote that post for, called me a "whiner" and you read my response. Status quo or pining for the past is for conservatives. It took a liberal Republican president to slowly evolve and pass the 13th to end slavery.

It's going to take a "whiner" now to change the status quo. There frankly isn't another country like us in the world. In this case, that's not a complement. We lead the industrialized world in gun deaths and the only difference is our number of guns and lack of control. Industrialized, civilized, decent countries should have some kind of safety measures to reasonably protect their citizens. We shouldn't have to be part of a local militia, that's what our taxes are for.

Your gun is your private property and I'm not talking about taking it from you. Keep it, but lets stop selling more military-style weapons to our citizens. If we do (I don't think the ban will go through), I think we need to make sure that you are neither a criminal, psychologically unstable, out to overthrow the country, or a terrorist. What is really wrong with that concept?

Did you visit my thread where I posted gun facts?

But why complain about assault weapons when the murder weapon of choice as far as guns go is the pistol. I believe the 9mm pistol may well be the most popular. Yet that is not the gun they want to restrict.

Thanks for the compliment. I respect any person who perhaps may change from democrats side to republicans side.

[bingster]

The .223 Remington is the most widely-used centerfire rifle cartridge in the developed world. In its 5.56x45 military form, it is the primary issue ammunition for the U.S. Military and NATO forces. It is a popular sporting cartridge, and probably the most commonly used centerfire varmint cartridge. In our Readers' Poll, the .223 Rem (both standard and improved) ranked first among preferred varmint rounds. The .223 Rem is efficient and versatile. It can sling 40-grainers past 3650 fps, and deliver 90gr VLDs accurately at 1000 yards. Its parent case, the .222 Remington, was once a mainstay of benchrest competition. Today, with custom match bullets, the .223 Remington can still deliver impressive accuracy, shooting well under quarter-MOA in a good rifle.

I call your attention to salient FACTS. (when you see the photo of the cartridge, take note it is smaller. I put a ruler to the photo and the actual size is a bit larger. See end of post.)

40 grain ammo is tiny. Even 90 grain is small.

Look at the ammo for the 30.06. I believe that the bullet is about 220 grains. That is over 5 times the hitting power as the .223.

Military hand weapons, rifles and pistols, of those calibers are to hurt the enemy. Disable the guy so he can't fight.

We were taught in the Army that even the 30.06 bullet by being brass coated was to do more injure the enemy than kill them. A lucky hit to the heart or brain took the enemy out but the body is much larger and one might hit the enemy anyplace.

If you want to kill a human, use commercial hunting ammo that is lead. It is not brass coated.

But a 40 grain bullet?

The way he killed those kids was by putting the gun to their heads and pulling the trigger. It did not take a machine gun to do that.

Even so, i bet the AR-15 could not fire on automatic. (just about 1.5 larger than photo)

4294

Are you saying that the 5.56 round fired with an assault weapon is the best tool to kill varmints? Really?

[Robert A Whit]

You keep bringing up the AR15 specifically. Being that it's not even an assault weapon, and is your everyday semi-auto rifle made to look like a military rifle - why are you continuing to repeat the guns name as if it's a military grade weapon? You do know it's just a plain 'ol rifle, no? One pull of the trigger and one shot.

Tiny bullet too.

4295

[bingster]

Did you visit my thread where I posted gun facts?

But why complain about assault weapons when the murder weapon of choice as far as guns go is the pistol. I believe the 9mm pistol may well be the most popular. Yet that is not the gun they want to restrict.

Thanks for the compliment. I respect any person who perhaps may change from democrats side to republicans side.

It's, admittedly, the only thing possible in our current political climate. Assault weapons may only cause 3% of gun deaths, but I'm sure they account for a vast majority of mass murders.

I'm new to this forum. Could you post a link and I'll check it out. Thank you for being smart and respectful. Too many folks write with hostility and slander.

[Robert A Whit]

Are you saying that the 5.56 round fired with an assault weapon is the best tool to kill varmints? Really?

I dunno where you get this assault weapon idea from but in this country, they are machine guns. Small or large bore, they still are machine guns. As such, federal permits must be obtained. Some states just outlaw machine guns. Still when you study those states, crimes are rampant.

As to it being the best for varmits? Depends on the shooter. Some may need to sneak up on varmits and hit them with a shotgun.

Varmits are small animals and the bullet for the AR-15 is also tiny. i only posted some facts from a site and perhaps you think those were my words. NO, I did research on the so called assault weapon in discussion to get facts on the ammo.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

So the answer is to do like Sherif Arpaoe and stick a bunch of his vigilante posse in the schools to fight the bad guys? People were armed in Columbine and today's school shootings. Who's going to pay for the cops without raising taxes? Are you for higher taxes?

I always use "Bingster"

Part of the answer is to do away with gun free zones(victim invitational zones). All the mass killers seek and want a place to do their murdering unmolested(to become famous -go out in glory). Place were they are sure no armed opposition will exist. Take that away and most all of the desire to go get shot the hell up trying to become famous will go away too. Or else they will go away from schools and kids to try.
Its not about protecting the kids or we would see the easy solution of stopping gun free zones already put forth and implemented. Its a political "club" now used to beat on opposition party and its base.. . One used to push another agenda.
Want respect here by anybody that counts talk truthfully and stop repeated bullshit party lines , liberal feel good asshat talking points etc.
There is no way to protect school kids that's not going to cost!! So why not use ex-military, ex-cops etc.!?? Already weapons trained. Mix in a few conceal carry teachers that volunteer and receive a higher pay rate.Put people to work instead of stealing billions to pay them to sit home.
Nationwide campaign so all know it and it will work, will save lives and will not start a civil war by attempting to destroy our Constitution / 2nd Amendment.
obama doesnt give a damn about any human in this country except himself and his immediate family.

Remember this a man could have went into that school with a hammer and killed those little kids .. There was zero protection for them in that zone!!--Tyr

[Robert A Whit]

It's, admittedly, the only thing possible in our current political climate. Assault weapons may only cause 3% of gun deaths, but I'm sure they account for a vast majority of mass murders.

I'm new to this forum. Could you post a link and I'll check it out. Thank you for being smart and respectful. Too many folks write with hostility and slander.

Actually, assault weapons are almost not used at all in mass murders. I found one case where it could perhaps be possible for the weapon to have been an AK-47 machine gun. But two uses of the AK-47 were the single shot version.

As to supplying a link. it will take a bit of time but will do my best by tomorrow. I posted it somewhere else. Flattery helps a lot. LOL

Jim keeps posting that it is not how it looks, but how it functions. When that guy killed those kids, he shot one bullet at a time. Took a squeeze on the trigger to do the job.

Then he used very tiny bullets. Notice the gun he killed himself with had a large bore. They don't seem to want to ban that gun.

Trust me, if they can, they will ban said guns. I don't believe they want the same version of the last law. They want one much more draconian.

Do you know how well the last law worked?

Well, per statistics from the FBI, not at all.

[bingster]

Tiny bullet too.

4295
United States

There are no federal restrictions on the ownership of AR-15 rifles in the United States. During the period 1994–2004 variants with certain features such as collapsible stocks, flash suppressors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_suppressor), and bayonet lugs were prohibited for sales to civilians by the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_Crime_Control_and_Law_Enforcement_Act), with the included Assault Weapons Ban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban). Included in this was a restriction on the pistol grip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol_grip) that protrudes beneath the stock, which was considered an accessory feature under the ban and was subject to restrictions. Some rifles were manufactured with a grip not described under the Ban installed in its place. Those AR-15s that were manufactured with those features, as well as the accompanying full capacity magazines, were stamped "Restricted Military/Government/Law Enforcement/Export Only". The restrictions only applied to guns manufactured after the ban took effect. It was legal to own, sell, or buy any gun built before 1994. Hundreds of thousands of pre-ban ARs were sold during the ban as well as new guns redesigned to be legal.

I think we're arguing semantics now. I carried an m16a2 in the military and I know it was an AR-15. I figured I was carrying an "assault weapon" and I think most people would agree.


United States

There are no federal restrictions on the ownership of AR-15 rifles in the United States. During the period 1994–2004 variants with certain features such as collapsible stocks, flash suppressors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_suppressor), and bayonet lugs were prohibited for sales to civilians by the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_Crime_Control_and_Law_Enforcement_Act), with the included Assault Weapons Ban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban). Included in this was a restriction on the pistol grip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol_grip) that protrudes beneath the stock, which was considered an accessory feature under the ban and was subject to restrictions. Some rifles were manufactured with a grip not described under the Ban installed in its place. Those AR-15s that were manufactured with those features, as well as the accompanying full capacity magazines, were stamped "Restricted Military/Government/Law Enforcement/Export Only". The restrictions only applied to guns manufactured after the ban took effect. It was legal to own, sell, or buy any gun built before 1994. Hundreds of thousands of pre-ban ARs were sold during the ban as well as new guns redesigned to be legal.

I think we're arguing semantics now. I carried an m16a2 in the military and I know it was an AR-15. I figured I was carrying an "assault weapon" and I think most people would agree.


Yea, I know "one bullet at a time" with huge 30 round clips. Actually the m16a2 had a three round burst-I liked my m16a1 much better, but you get the best weapons first when you're in an elite group.

[Missileman]

You'd have to print the decision to prove that the Supreme Court actually stated "allow service in a militia". I don't believe that it did. I think the decision pretty much decided that you get to keep a gun for hunting and protecting yourself. Chalk up the " allow service in a militia" part to be as atiquated as the "3/5 of a person" part.

I didn't say anything about "So every round of ammo fired from an "assault weapon" kills a bunch of people". Let's try this again. Name one thing that an assault weapon is better for than a handgun, hunting rifle, or shotgun (except, as you said "serving in a militia").

You actually made my point.


U.S. v. Miller (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#TOC), 307 U.S. 174 (1939). This is the
only case in which the Supreme Court has had the opportunity to apply the Second
Amendment to a federal firearms statute. The Court, however, carefully avoided
making an unconditional decision regarding the statute's constitutionality; it
instead devised a test by which to measure the constitutionality of statutes
relating to firearms and remanded the case to the trial court for an evidentiary
hearing (the trial court had held that Section 11 of the National Firearms Act
was unconstitutional). The Court remanded to the case because it had concluded
that:



In the absence of any evidence tending to show that
possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in
length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or
efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment
guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not
within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military
equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.



Thus, for the keeping and bearing of a firearm to be
constitutionally protected, the firearm should be a militia-type arm.
The case also made clear that the militia consisted of
"all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense" and
that "when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms
supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time." In setting
forth this definition of the militia, the Court implicitly rejected the view
that the Second Amendment guarantees a right only to those individuals who are
members of the militia. Had the Court viewed the Second Amendment as
guaranteeing the right to keep and bear arms only to "all males physically
capable of acting in concert for the common defense," it would certainly have
discussed whether, on remand, there should also be evidence that the defendants
met the qualifications for inclusion in the militia, much as it did with regard
to the militia use of a short-barrelled shotgun.



And, the whole point IS that it's better for service in a militia.

[bingster]

Actually, assault weapons are almost not used at all in mass murders. I found one case where it could perhaps be possible for the weapon to have been an AK-47 machine gun. But two uses of the AK-47 were the single shot version.

As to supplying a link. it will take a bit of time but will do my best by tomorrow. I posted it somewhere else. Flattery helps a lot. LOL

Jim keeps posting that it is not how it looks, but how it functions. When that guy killed those kids, he shot one bullet at a time. Took a squeeze on the trigger to do the job.

Then he used very tiny bullets. Notice the gun he killed himself with had a large bore. They don't seem to want to ban that gun.

Trust me, if they can, they will ban said guns. I don't believe they want the same version of the last law. They want one much more draconian.

Do you know how well the last law worked?

Well, per statistics from the FBI, not at all.

The more I stay on this forum, the more I think the most important thing is to ban the magazines. Yea, I know the numbers aren't good on the last ban, of course. I also know the ban didn't cover the most popular weapons. The definition of assault weapons is very vague. I don't think most people shoot varmint with 5.56 rounds. They also don't need 30 round clips or 100 round drums.

[Missileman]

The more I stay on this forum, the more I think the most important thing is to ban the magazines. Yea, I know the numbers aren't good on the last ban, of course. I also know the ban didn't cover the most popular weapons. The definition of assault weapons is very vague. I don't think most people shoot varmint with 5.56 rounds. They also don't need 30 round clips or 100 round drums.

The high capacity magazines are for service in a militia...jeesh! And you can ban high capacity magazines until you're blue in the face. It wouldn't take much effort for someone intending mass murder to manufacture a few.

[Robert A Whit]

Bingster stated
Good job, guess I'll have to substantiate some stuff.
1. Lincoln was a liberal Republican. In fact, at the time Republicans were called "radicals". You can't honestly read a book about Lincoln and compare the Democrats with today's Republican. Over the last 150 years, the parties have switched names.
2. Wilson gave women the vote. Kennedy and Johnson gave the vote to blacks (literally, they had the vote in the 1860's but Jim Crow laws prevented it.
3. FDR gave us Social Security and Johnson gave us Medicare.
4. 9 out of 10 of the states that get the highest amount of federal money vs how much the state pays in federal income taxes are red states. (Tax Policy Center). Romney beat Obama on the elderly vote (usually goes Republican). Military has always leaned Republican while combat soldiers do not pay income taxes. The number 67%, I'll admit was a guess-but think about it.
5. AP and need to know website
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know...buy-guns/8927/ (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/the-daily-need/on-terrorist-watch-list-but-allowed-to-buy-guns/8927/)
6. You got me there. I read somewhere that only 1/3 of their revenue came from dues and that the rest came from gun manufacturers. I couldn't find anything on line just now, but I find something, I'll send it to you. It makes sense, also, when (I've heard) that 70% of NRA members (I know there's a study on this one) believe in background checks. NRA leadership won't even consider this.

How on earth can you call Lincoln a Liberal? Do you mean to claim he invaded VA to help those people out? At least in the case of the slave loving G. Washington, he was trying to help his own neighbors. Abe went in with nostrils flaring and cannon and all sorts of evil crap.

Imagine today that Obama sent 20,000 troops your way to get you to change your mind?

Abe did not fight a war for the negro. He demolished that myth for a couple of years.

Democrats love to sell that story that the parties switched. But that is not true.

Much that Democrats take credit for was fought to the max by guess who?

Believe it or not, it was democrats that gave Lyndon Johnson his head ache and it was republicans that took it over the top and won the day. LBJ had to ut a stop to the filibustering of Democrats.

Yet what Democrat other than Johnson ever thanked republicans for the 1964 civil rights act. Today democrats won't admit it was republicans doing the shoving and it was democrats putting up the resistance.

Wyoming I told you had long had the women voting in their law. So Wilson did not give them a thing. All he did was tell states they can't stop women from voting. I explained why men in those days felt a vote by them was for the familiy unit.

What this country got from FDR is just why today the country is headed to going busted. His and Johnsons laws have created a country that loves enormous debt. Why it does, I don't know.

Look at what it takes to change a red state to a blue state.

It takes some very large cities.

What this is actually over is the city at war with the little guy. The cities are mostly lived in by democrats once they get power. CA would be republican but for the SF Bay Area and Los Angeles and the burbs of both cities. We don't accurately explain it by ignoring the power of the large cities.

I qualify as elderly for sure and I voted democrats only till I was about 40 years old. I changed. It is calling getting a conscience and seeing how my stubborn democrat party vote was hurting this country. Even then I realized that you can't excuse theft and the taking of property by calling it government.

[bingster]

I dunno where you get this assault weapon idea from but in this country, they are machine guns. Small or large bore, they still are machine guns. As such, federal permits must be obtained. Some states just outlaw machine guns. Still when you study those states, crimes are rampant.

As to it being the best for varmits? Depends on the shooter. Some may need to sneak up on varmits and hit them with a shotgun.

Varmits are small animals and the bullet for the AR-15 is also tiny. i only posted some facts from a site and perhaps you think those were my words. NO, I did research on the so called assault weapon in discussion to get facts on the ammo.

good information. thank you


And, the whole point IS that it's better for service in a militia.

You might have me on this one. I'm too tired right now to research this but I will say that there have been a heck of lot of supreme court decisions regards the 2nd amendment since 1939. The last one starts with the justice stating the purpose of the 2nd being for self defense and doesn't mention militia. I'll look into it more tomorrow.


How on earth can you call Lincoln a Liberal? Do you mean to claim he invaded VA to help those people out? At least in the case of the slave loving G. Washington, he was trying to help his own neighbors. Abe went in with nostrils flaring and cannon and all sorts of evil crap.

Imagine today that Obama sent 20,000 troops your way to get you to change your mind?

Abe did not fight a war for the negro. He demolished that myth for a couple of years.

Democrats love to sell that story that the parties switched. But that is not true.

Much that Democrats take credit for was fought to the max by guess who?

Believe it or not, it was democrats that gave Lyndon Johnson his head ache and it was republicans that took it over the top and won the day. LBJ had to ut a stop to the filibustering of Democrats.

Yet what Democrat other than Johnson ever thanked republicans for the 1964 civil rights act. Today democrats won't admit it was republicans doing the shoving and it was democrats putting up the resistance.

Wyoming I told you had long had the women voting in their law. So Wilson did not give them a thing. All he did was tell states they can't stop women from voting. I explained why men in those days felt a vote by them was for the familiy unit.

What this country got from FDR is just why today the country is headed to going busted. His and Johnsons laws have created a country that loves enormous debt. Why it does, I don't know.

Look at what it takes to change a red state to a blue state.

It takes some very large cities.

What this is actually over is the city at war with the little guy. The cities are mostly lived in by democrats once they get power. CA would be republican but for the SF Bay Area and Los Angeles and the burbs of both cities. We don't accurately explain it by ignoring the power of the large cities.

I qualify as elderly for sure and I voted democrats only till I was about 40 years old. I changed. It is calling getting a conscience and seeing how my stubborn democrat party vote was hurting this country. Even then I realized that you can't excuse theft and the taking of property by calling it government.


Partially, at least, you're confusing Democrats and Republicans with Liberals and Conservatives. Lincoln's invasion of Virginia was conservative? Really? And who fired the first shot anyway? 1860 Democrats were all about states rights vs. the Republicans federalism-sound familiar? No, I don't think Lincoln was all about blacks rights, he even said something like "If I end this civil war without freeing a single slave so be it". But I do think he found the institution of slavery repugnant. Then he did rally to pass the 13th amendment to free the slaves without any reason to do so but morality. Almost everyone was prejudice in the 1860's. Passing the 13th was a liberal act!

Democrats in the 1960's were not all liberal. Many of the southern ones were called Dixiecrats. They were conservative. Republicans didn't almost completely become conservative until the Nixon administration and even more so during the Reagan administration.

Essentially, my definition of liberalism is about live and let live. As long as what you're doing doesn't hurt anyone else, go for it. Two guys getting married REALLY doesn't do anything to your marriage, for instance. Conservative "freedoms" usually carry a cost against other people. Freedom from corporate and Wall Street regulations can damage the environment or kill my 401k. Freedom from background checks on assault weapons can cause some right-wing extremist to shoot up my Greenpeace meeting. I want to learn facts in my schools and don't want a sermon on "intelligent design". Your religious freedoms shouldn't interfere with my secular laws! And the war on xmas is bunk! My cashiers at Walgreens said "Happy Holidays" during December because Christmas wasn't the only holiday in December-common sense-not an attack against Christianity.

You're right about the city part. Immigrants generally go to the cities where the jobs are. Bad news for the Republicans, because more and more, minorities are making up the majority of the electorate. It's been said that Texas will be a swing state in 2020, and a blue state in ten years. 50,000 hispanics are born everyday and the conservative platform is not complimentary to minorities or women. You guys really are in trouble because it's not just about retoric. You have to change your minds or your party will die.


How on earth can you call Lincoln a Liberal? Do you mean to claim he invaded VA to help those people out? At least in the case of the slave loving G. Washington, he was trying to help his own neighbors. Abe went in with nostrils flaring and cannon and all sorts of evil crap.

Imagine today that Obama sent 20,000 troops your way to get you to change your mind?

Abe did not fight a war for the negro. He demolished that myth for a couple of years.

Democrats love to sell that story that the parties switched. But that is not true.

Much that Democrats take credit for was fought to the max by guess who?

Believe it or not, it was democrats that gave Lyndon Johnson his head ache and it was republicans that took it over the top and won the day. LBJ had to ut a stop to the filibustering of Democrats.

Yet what Democrat other than Johnson ever thanked republicans for the 1964 civil rights act. Today democrats won't admit it was republicans doing the shoving and it was democrats putting up the resistance.

Wyoming I told you had long had the women voting in their law. So Wilson did not give them a thing. All he did was tell states they can't stop women from voting. I explained why men in those days felt a vote by them was for the familiy unit.

What this country got from FDR is just why today the country is headed to going busted. His and Johnsons laws have created a country that loves enormous debt. Why it does, I don't know.

Look at what it takes to change a red state to a blue state.

It takes some very large cities.

What this is actually over is the city at war with the little guy. The cities are mostly lived in by democrats once they get power. CA would be republican but for the SF Bay Area and Los Angeles and the burbs of both cities. We don't accurately explain it by ignoring the power of the large cities.

I qualify as elderly for sure and I voted democrats only till I was about 40 years old. I changed. It is calling getting a conscience and seeing how my stubborn democrat party vote was hurting this country. Even then I realized that you can't excuse theft and the taking of property by calling it government.




I don't want to beat a dead horse, and I respect you sir, but I need to dispute one of your lines: "
Democrats love to sell that story that the parties switched. But that is not true." How do you support that?

We have to agree, on the whole, the most enlightened group of 1860 were the Republicans (liberal), right? After all, the Democrats (conservative) owned black people, so you could say, safely, they were ultra-racist. Not to be divisive, but really, do you think current KKK members voted for Obama or Romney?

What do you keep hearing today on Fox News regarding states rights? Are the Democrats for or against? Are the Republicans for or against? Other than DOMA, Republicans of the 20th (after 1965) and 21st century haven't believed in passing federal civil right or federal any other laws-"leave it up to the states". In the 1860's, it was all about states rights. On the larger scale, it was really what the civil war was fought over. Democrats (conservative) were for (Don't take my slaves!) and Republicans (liberal) were against: nobody in this country should own black people-but really, Lincoln just wanted to keep the nation together.

Then just think of it physically. Do you really think (Think about this hard!), that between 1860 and 2012, all of the Republicans of the north have switched places, physically, with all of the Democrats from the south? Do you know any Democrats celebrating southern civil war generals today? How many Democrats support Alabama's rebel flag? Believe me, there are no Democrats, today, proud of southern civil war 'lore (unless they are SUPER old). "The South" is the southern player from the civil war. They used to be Democrat. Now they are Republican.

The parties did switch. This isn't even worth an argument.

[Kathianne]

I don't want to beat a dead horse, and I respect you sir, but I need to dispute one of your lines: "
Democrats love to sell that story that the parties switched. But that is not true." How do you support that?

We have to agree, on the whole, the most enlightened group of 1860 were the Republicans (liberal), right? After all, the Democrats (conservative) owned black people, so you could say, safely, they were ultra-racist. Not to be divisive, but really, do you think current KKK members voted for Obama or Romney?

What do you keep hearing today on Fox News regarding states rights? Are the Democrats for or against? Are the Republicans for or against? Other than DOMA, Republicans of the 20th (after 1965) and 21st century haven't believed in passing federal civil right or federal any other laws-"leave it up to the states". In the 1860's, it was all about states rights. On the larger scale, it was really what the civil war was fought over. Democrats (conservative) were for (Don't take my slaves!) and Republicans (liberal) were against: nobody in this country should own black people-but really, Lincoln just wanted to keep the nation together.

Then just think of it physically. Do you really think (Think about this hard!), that between 1860 and 2012, all of the Republicans of the north have switched places, physically, with all of the Democrats from the south? Do you know any Democrats celebrating southern civil war generals today? How many Democrats support Alabama's rebel flag? Believe me, there are no Democrats, today, proud of southern civil war 'lore (unless they are SUPER old). "The South" is the southern player from the civil war. They used to be Democrat. Now they are Republican.

The parties did switch. This isn't even worth an argument.

Try to switch your thinking to 21st C., OK? Which voting group is saying that the course we are on, brought to us all by both major political parties is on the wrong trajectory? There are several correct answers here, none of which are democrat or republican.

Then the choice for the electorate, those aware that would be, are they for expanding and protecting individual rights or for supplanting individual rights for a 'common goal?' Which would you support?

[mundame]

Your gun is your private property and I'm not talking about taking it from you. Keep it, but lets stop selling more military-style weapons to our citizens. If we do (I don't think the ban will go through), I think we need to make sure that you are neither a criminal, psychologically unstable, out to overthrow the country, or a terrorist. What is really wrong with that concept?


Hello, bingster. I like your posts very much and hope you stay here. It would raise the intellectual level of this forum to have some real discussion rather than mostly one-line insult posts full of grammatical errors and blowhard rhetoric full of hatred.

I'd say nothing is wrong with that concept except it wouldn't have stopped really any of the the last several spree killers. All of them , and many others who are infamous, flew beneath the radar: they were not recognized crazies and no background check caught any of them. Some of them got their weapons illegally by getting someone else to buy them: Eric Harris and also the recent felon who shot up the firefighters.

For that reason I feel we need a ban on these assault rifle psycho-bait weapons. They attract young, psychotic role-players, and some others as well, because they look military and these crazies want to be like all the video game and movie characters they've seen, who are typically shown killing many, many people with assault rifles.

[bingster]

Try to switch your thinking to 21st C., OK? Which voting group is saying that the course we are on, brought to us all by both major political parties is on the wrong trajectory? There are several correct answers here, none of which are democrat or republican.

Then the choice for the electorate, those aware that would be, are they for expanding and protecting individual rights or for supplanting individual rights for a 'common goal?' Which would you support?

As for the voting group saying we are on the wrong trajectory, I'd have to say the Tea Party. Although the poles are close to 50/50 on this. As for individual rights vs common goal, it's a little more complicated. Individual rights like "equal protection" and "right to chose" are supported by the liberals and gun rights are more supported by the conservatives-both sides are possible with some limits. I also don't think it's wrong to support a worthy "common goal". What's wrong with having a safety net for our elderly and poor; being ethical in world affairs; improving our schools so that our country can better compete in the global market? I don't accept the premise of your statement that it has to be a choice between individual rights and common goal.

[jimnyc]

United States

There are no federal restrictions on the ownership of AR-15 rifles in the United States. During the period 1994–2004 variants with certain features such as collapsible stocks, flash suppressors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_suppressor), and bayonet lugs were prohibited for sales to civilians by the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_Crime_Control_and_Law_Enforcement_Act), with the included Assault Weapons Ban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban). Included in this was a restriction on the pistol grip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol_grip) that protrudes beneath the stock, which was considered an accessory feature under the ban and was subject to restrictions. Some rifles were manufactured with a grip not described under the Ban installed in its place. Those AR-15s that were manufactured with those features, as well as the accompanying full capacity magazines, were stamped "Restricted Military/Government/Law Enforcement/Export Only". The restrictions only applied to guns manufactured after the ban took effect. It was legal to own, sell, or buy any gun built before 1994. Hundreds of thousands of pre-ban ARs were sold during the ban as well as new guns redesigned to be legal.

I think we're arguing semantics now. I carried an m16a2 in the military and I know it was an AR-15. I figured I was carrying an "assault weapon" and I think most people would agree.

Most people WOULDN'T, unless they want to be lead by the media. An AR15 IS NOT an M16 - unless you are saying they look similarly, but they are NOT the same gun. One is an assault weapon, one is not. HERE is the appropriate definition of what makes an assault weapon - and why the media and others LIKE to call regular semi-auto's assault weapons. I'm following that up with a link to official assault weapons, not scary weapons that solely look like them.
-----

An assault rifle is a selective fire rifle or carbine typically firing ammunition with muzzle energies and sizes intermediate between those of handgun and more traditional high-powered rifle ammunition. Assault rifles are categorized between light machine guns, intended more for sustained automatic fire in a support role, and submachine guns, which fire a handgun cartridge rather than a rifle cartridge. Assault rifles are the standard small arms in most modern armed forces, having largely replaced or supplemented larger, more powerful rifles, such as the World War II-era M1 Garand and Tokarev SVT. Belt-fed weapons or rifles with very limited capacity fixed magazines are generally not considered assault rifles.

Semi-automatic rifles are not always classified as assault rifles as some do no not have the capacity to carry more than 10 rounds or designed for military use. However, in media firearms reporting the term 'assault rifle' usually refers to visual appearance rather than internal functionality. Similar full sized weapons, with full-auto capabilities chambered in full-sized rifle rounds, are known as Battle rifles. Examples of Battle Rifles are the FN FAL, H&K G3 and M14 rifle.
-----

Actual assault rifles - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assault_rifles

[bingster]

Hello, bingster. I like your posts very much and hope you stay here. It would raise the intellectual level of this forum to have some real discussion rather than mostly one-line insult posts full of grammatical errors and blowhard rhetoric full of hatred.

I'd say nothing is wrong with that concept except it wouldn't have stopped really any of the the last several spree killers. All of them , and many others who are infamous, flew beneath the radar: they were not recognized crazies and no background check caught any of them. Some of them got their weapons illegally by getting someone else to buy them: Eric Harris and also the recent felon who shot up the firefighters.

For that reason I feel we need a ban on these assault rifle psycho-bait weapons. They attract young, psychotic role-players, and some others as well, because they look military and these crazies want to be like all the video game and movie characters they've seen, who are typically shown killing many, many people with assault rifles.

Thank you for the compliment. I agree, there are a lot of people who use this forum to bully people and call names. I'm currently unemployed and am dying for intellectual expression.

Your realistic view of this issue is what's so weak about the liberal position. That's why the bill or collection of bills that need to pass must be an all-encompassing approach. I agree with the assault weapon part, but the background check and national registry should be a no-brainer. More should be done for the mentally ill and maybe something should be done regarding movies and video games.

The biggest problem right now is not that there are no solutions. There isn't much that is politically possible. Hand guns account for the vast majority of gun deaths in this country and there no way to ban them. That's why we need to make sure that at least legally, only responsible people should be allowed to have them. The most insane number I've heard lately is that 40% of gun sales do not require a background check.

I also think some kind of public service announcement program might be helpful. I know the right will accuse us of propaganda, but there are plenty of surveys out there that say you are not statistically safer with a handgun in your home, for example. I wish that information would get out there somehow, but realistically, I'm sure the NRA would also buy airtime and turn it into a ad war. I'm afraid this can get ugly and I'm worried there may even be attacks on our government because of this issue.

[jimnyc]

Thank you for the compliment. I agree, there are a lot of people who use this forum to bully people and call names. I'm currently unemployed and am dying for intellectual expression.

Please ignore that and move forward. No one is "bullying". But yes, others do call names in the midst of debates, it happens. You have the ability to place members on ignore if it comes down to that. But don't label the masses so quickly.

[bingster]

Most people WOULDN'T, unless they want to be lead by the media. An AR15 IS NOT an M16 - unless you are saying they look similarly, but they are NOT the same gun. One is an assault weapon, one is not. HERE is the appropriate definition of what makes an assault weapon - and why the media and others LIKE to call regular semi-auto's assault weapons. I'm following that up with a link to official assault weapons, not scary weapons that solely look like them.
-----

An assault rifle is a selective fire rifle or carbine typically firing ammunition with muzzle energies and sizes intermediate between those of handgun and more traditional high-powered rifle ammunition. Assault rifles are categorized between light machine guns, intended more for sustained automatic fire in a support role, and submachine guns, which fire a handgun cartridge rather than a rifle cartridge. Assault rifles are the standard small arms in most modern armed forces, having largely replaced or supplemented larger, more powerful rifles, such as the World War II-era M1 Garand and Tokarev SVT. Belt-fed weapons or rifles with very limited capacity fixed magazines are generally not considered assault rifles.

Semi-automatic rifles are not always classified as assault rifles as some do no not have the capacity to carry more than 10 rounds or designed for military use. However, in media firearms reporting the term 'assault rifle' usually refers to visual appearance rather than internal functionality. Similar full sized weapons, with full-auto capabilities chambered in full-sized rifle rounds, are known as Battle rifles. Examples of Battle Rifles are the FN FAL, H&K G3 and M14 rifle.
-----

Actual assault rifles - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assault_rifles

The M16 rifle, officially designated Rifle, Caliber 5.56 mm, M16, is the United States military version of the AR-15 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15) rifle. The rifle was adapted for semi-automatic, three-round burst, and full-automatic fire.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle#cite_note-Small_Arms_Urban-6) Colt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt%27s_Manufacturing_Company) purchased the rights to the AR-15 from ArmaLite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite), and currently uses that designation only for semi-automatic versions of the rifle

The m16a2 did not have fully automatic capability (3-round burst). I'm not familiar with the m4, but I doubt it has full automatic capability either, since the 3-round burst of the m16a2 was supposed to be an upgrade over the m16a1.

Other than full automatic mode, I'm not convinced there is a difference between an ar15 and an assault weapon.


Please ignore that and move forward. No one is "bullying". But yes, others do call names in the midst of debates, it happens. You have the ability to place members on ignore if it comes down to that. But don't label the masses so quickly.

I wasn't referring to the masses. I certainly wasn't referring to you. I've appreciated and enjoyed your posts.

I probably shouldn't have used the phrase "a lot of people", sorry.

[jimnyc]

The M16 rifle, officially designated Rifle, Caliber 5.56 mm, M16, is the United States military version of the AR-15 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15) rifle. The rifle was adapted for semi-automatic, three-round burst, and full-automatic fire.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle#cite_note-Small_Arms_Urban-6) Colt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt%27s_Manufacturing_Company) purchased the rights to the AR-15 from ArmaLite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite), and currently uses that designation only for semi-automatic versions of the rifle

The m16a2 did not have fully automatic capability (3-round burst). I'm not familiar with the m4, but I doubt it has full automatic capability either, since the 3-round burst of the m16a2 was supposed to be an upgrade over the m16a1.

Other than full automatic mode, I'm not convinced there is a difference between an ar15 and an assault weapon.

I posted what the definition of an assault rifle is, and an AR15 simply doesn't qualify, while an M16 does. While they are similar in much of their appearance and parts, the functionality, firing rate and ammo are different.

[Gaffer]

Geeez another one needs a history lesson. Lincoln made the Emancipation Proclamation for two reason. One was to raise more troops. Blacks could fight as well as whites. The second, and most important was to keep England from entering the war on the side of the Confederacy. England had long since abolished slavery and couldn't be seen as supporting a country that condoned it.

The KKK was formed by Bedford Forrest. It was a democrat organization. The Jim Crow Act was also a democrat attempt to keep the negro down and unable to vote. Most blacks until the 1960's were republicans. M.L. King was a republican. Johnson pushed through the civil rights act in spite of the democrats resisting it. After it was done they quickly jumped sides and declare they were all for it and responsible for it's passing.

In 1972 the communist party stopped running candidates. The democrat party had taken over their platform so there was no longer a need. We now have an avowed communist in the white house.

The gun control laws are not about guns. They are about control. The govt wants complete control over the population and the first thing they have to do to have that is take away ALL the guns. One small step at a time. The 2nd Amendment is about having guns to protect yourself, provide for yourself and if necessary take back the country from tyrannical rule. And it's beginning to look like that is going to be necessary.

There's already a movement underway to change the Constitution to get rid of presidential term limits. The dark lord wants to be president for life.

[jimnyc]

Upon further reading, it appears they do shoot the same ammo, my apologies for posting incorrect info.


Upon further reading, it appears they do shoot the same ammo, my apologies for posting incorrect info.

But it's still .223 ammo, just like the Bushmaster .223, and without fully auto, is no different than your average hunting rifle, just looks like an M16.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Geeez another one needs a history lesson. Lincoln made the Emancipation Proclamation for two reason. One was to raise more troops. Blacks could fight as well as whites. The second, and most important was to keep England from entering the war on the side of the Confederacy. England had long since abolished slavery and couldn't be seen as supporting a country that condoned it.

The KKK was formed by Bedford Forrest. It was a democrat organization. The Jim Crow Act was also a democrat attempt to keep the negro down and unable to vote. Most blacks until the 1960's were republicans. M.L. King was a republican. Johnson pushed through the civil rights act in spite of the democrats resisting it. After it was done they quickly jumped sides and declare they were all for it and responsible for it's passing.

In 1972 the communist party stopped running candidates. The democrat party had taken over their platform so there was no longer a need. We now have an avowed communist in the white house.

The gun control laws are not about guns. They are about control. The govt wants complete control over the population and the first thing they have to do to have that is take away ALL the guns. One small step at a time. The 2nd Amendment is about having guns to protect yourself, provide for yourself and if necessary take back the country from tyrannical rule. And it's beginning to look like that is going to be necessary.

There's already a movement underway to change the Constitution to get rid of presidential term limits. The dark lord wants to be president for life.

ALL TRUE.. Sadly that's all true.
Whats worse is that about 85% of the people will think it to be lies and crazy conspiracy theory.
Even a majority on our side will refuse to admit that is true. Choosing denial to avoid having to make a very hard decision!! Some of us choose reality and standing for whats right!--Tyr

[jimnyc]

I wasn't referring to the masses. I certainly wasn't referring to you. I've appreciated and enjoyed your posts.

I probably shouldn't have used the phrase "a lot of people", sorry.

Fair enough. I just don't want you to think any 1 or 2 people speak for everyone. Different subjects will have different people posting. You came right into a gun aka 2nd amendment debate, which is about as bad as abortion - which are likely the 2 most heated topics. Just hoping you don't judge everyone, or anyone, on a few posts. :)

[bingster]

4300
This is the left side of an m16a1, but if you could blow this picture up, you would see "ar15" written on the side of the lower receiver.

[jimnyc]

4300
This is the left side of an m16a1, but if you could blow this picture up, you would see "ar15" written on the side of the lower receiver.

But it's NOT the same, even different parts and parts made differently. The trigger is different, lower receiver, bolt carrier, flash suppressor, bayonet... But of course the biggest differences being the auto, burstable & the AR only being semi-auto

I'd also like to point out - again - that on the official list of assault rifles, there is a reason that the M16 is listed and not the AR15. And I'll give everyone a hint, it's in the actual definition I posted. Imagine that, a gun being classified based on it's capability and not whether or not it looks scary! :)

Another difference to show they are simply NOT the same gun - an AR15 will run ya anywhere from $700-$1500. An M16, if you live in the proper state and go through the proper channels, will likely run you closer to $10k or so.

[bingster]

Geeez another one needs a history lesson. Lincoln made the Emancipation Proclamation for two reason. One was to raise more troops. Blacks could fight as well as whites. The second, and most important was to keep England from entering the war on the side of the Confederacy. England had long since abolished slavery and couldn't be seen as supporting a country that condoned it.

The KKK was formed by Bedford Forrest. It was a democrat organization. The Jim Crow Act was also a democrat attempt to keep the negro down and unable to vote. Most blacks until the 1960's were republicans. M.L. King was a republican. Johnson pushed through the civil rights act in spite of the democrats resisting it. After it was done they quickly jumped sides and declare they were all for it and responsible for it's passing.

In 1972 the communist party stopped running candidates. The democrat party had taken over their platform so there was no longer a need. We now have an avowed communist in the white house.

The gun control laws are not about guns. They are about control. The govt wants complete control over the population and the first thing they have to do to have that is take away ALL the guns. One small step at a time. The 2nd Amendment is about having guns to protect yourself, provide for yourself and if necessary take back the country from tyrannical rule. And it's beginning to look like that is going to be necessary.

There's already a movement underway to change the Constitution to get rid of presidential term limits. The dark lord wants to be president for life.

Thanx for the history lesson although I didn't need it. I know the emancipation proclamation was not about civil rights. That's why if you read it, you'll find that it doesn't free any slaves within Union control. the 13th amendment was about civil rights.

The Democrats of the civil war were the conservative party. They only started showing signs of liberalism with Wilson, and then more fully with Johnson. In the 60's, there were still a lot of confederate-like Democrats called Dixiecrats who didn't favor civil rights. But again, most of my historical references were regarding conservatives and liberals. The party names are not reliable measures of conservatism.

[jimnyc]

And lastly, for those willing to take the time to read, anyway. If you read all of this, you WILL see the distinct differences.

M16 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle

AR15 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15_variants

Ok, one last thing worthy of mentioning and I'm done!

There are other companies, and tons of knockoffs, all made to LOOK like military grade weapons but are semi-auto and with different parts. But in the end, they all perform VERY similarly as semi-auto rifles. As a hunter, or true gun enthusiast, you would say some are much better than others, but I'm saying this for this thread only. By far and large, there are TONS of weapons out there JUST LIKE the AR and perform similarly if not much better.

So why all the attention on just the AR15? Do people want to ban ALL semi-auto's?

Alrighty, I lied, one last post on the subject. Here's a good explanation from another forum, melted down for easier consumption! LOL

The military very well may have adopted the AR15, but by no means is it the "same" gun.


AR15 is the Model 15 made by Armalite and bought by Colt. Though it is now the term used to describe pretty much any AR15 style semi-automatic rifle.

M16 is the military designation for the AR15 rifle. The M16, before it was originally adopted by the military was known as the Model 60X. There is an M16, M16A1, M16A2, M16A3, M16A4 and soon an M16A5.

M4 is a shorter lighter version of the M16. The M4A1 model replaced the 3 round burst with a full automatic fire selection. M4 has become a term to describe a 14.5'' barreled AR15 semi-automatic rifle.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=5169113

[bingster]

Alrighty, I lied, one last post on the subject. Here's a good explanation from another forum, melted down for easier consumption! LOL

The military very well may have adopted the AR15, but by no means is it the "same" gun.



http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=5169113

OK, bud, you won the technical argument. Very good job.
I'll keep pushing for the big clip ban, background checks, national registry, etc.... Doing nothing is the wrong answer.

[Gaffer]

OK, bud, you won the technical argument. Very good job.
I'll keep pushing for the big clip ban, background checks, national registry, etc.... Doing nothing is the wrong answer.

You would do better pushing for better mental health care and not worrying about guns.

[jimnyc]

OK, bud, you won the technical argument. Very good job.
I'll keep pushing for the big clip ban, background checks, national registry, etc.... Doing nothing is the wrong answer.

The checks I'll go along with. I don't think a registry will accomplish anything.

But let's discuss the large clips. What problem do you have with them, and what do you think banning them will accomplish?

[Robert A Whit]

Part of the answer is to do away with gun free zones(victim invitational zones). All the mass killers seek and want a place to do their murdering unmolested(to become famous -go out in glory). Place were they are sure no armed opposition will exist. Take that away and most all of the desire to go get shot the hell up trying to become famous will go away too. Or else they will go away from schools and kids to try.
Its not about protecting the kids or we would see the easy solution of stopping gun free zones already put forth and implemented. Its a political "club" now used to beat on opposition party and its base.. . One used to push another agenda.
Want respect here by anybody that counts talk truthfully and stop repeated bullshit party lines , liberal feel good asshat talking points etc.
There is no way to protect school kids that's not going to cost!! So why not use ex-military, ex-cops etc.!?? Already weapons trained. Mix in a few conceal carry teachers that volunteer and receive a higher pay rate.Put people to work instead of stealing billions to pay them to sit home.
Nationwide campaign so all know it and it will work, will save lives and will not start a civil war by attempting to destroy our Constitution / 2nd Amendment.
obama doesnt give a damn about any human in this country except himself and his immediate family.

Remember this a man could have went into that school with a hammer and killed those little kids .. There was zero protection for them in that zone!!--Tyr

Laws to restrict your freedom or my freedom is not the correct answer. I agree with the above solution but want to add to it.

Those who kill innocent people have surely been studied. The problem with them is mental.

Many millions have guns. Yet only a slender number end up killing humans. And they have as much remorse as the man setting out the mouse trap has.

Surely the professionals have some information that can be used by the public to add to your solution and to try to corral those who will kill from the populaton. They had interacted with family members, teachers and other professionals.

Let's stop making you and me the target and get after those who could really kill.

I think among gun onwers, if the goverment goes after the proper targets, the potential killer, they will get much more cooperation from we gun owners.

It's mad to target us when we don't own guns to kill humans with them.


OK, bud, you won the technical argument. Very good job.
I'll keep pushing for the big clip ban, background checks, national registry, etc.... Doing nothing is the wrong answer.

A way to spot socialists (not saying you are one) is how they look at solving problems.

We conservatives have this awful habit of looking at the problem then getting solutions that really work.

Take guns for instance.

We see the shooter as the problem.

We do not see guns or clips or ammo as the problem.

Those items are simply personal property.

Let's use a bird problem to shed light on my remarks.

Birds at airports can cause airplanes to crash. Especially if the airplanes happen to have jet engines.

To solve the problem, you don't tell birds they must obey some new law.

You find out what birds are the problem. You find out how to frighten them if nothing else works, and you solve the problem the correct way.

We gun owners feel we will be victims and caused by some mad men who seem to me to be mentally ill.

Do not solve the problem of the mental killers by making laws that we don't want and don't plan to obey.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Gaffer http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=606215#post606215)
Geeez another one needs a history lesson. Lincoln made the Emancipation Proclamation for two reason. One was to raise more troops. Blacks could fight as well as whites. The second, and most important was to keep England from entering the war on the side of the Confederacy. England had long since abolished slavery and couldn't be seen as supporting a country that condoned it.

The KKK was formed by Bedford Forrest. It was a democrat organization. The Jim Crow Act was also a democrat attempt to keep the negro down and unable to vote. Most blacks until the 1960's were republicans. M.L. King was a republican. Johnson pushed through the civil rights act in spite of the democrats resisting it. After it was done they quickly jumped sides and declare they were all for it and responsible for it's passing.

In 1972 the communist party stopped running candidates. The democrat party had taken over their platform so there was no longer a need. We now have an avowed communist in the white house.

The gun control laws are not about guns. They are about control. The govt wants complete control over the population and the first thing they have to do to have that is take away ALL the guns. One small step at a time. The 2nd Amendment is about having guns to protect yourself, provide for yourself and if necessary take back the country from tyrannical rule. And it's beginning to look like that is going to be necessary.

There's already a movement underway to change the Constitution to get rid of presidential term limits. The dark lord wants to be president for life.



Bingster replied:Thanx for the history lesson although I didn't need it. I know the emancipation proclamation was not about civil rights. That's why if you read it, you'll find that it doesn't free any slaves within Union control. the 13th amendment was about civil rights.

The Democrats of the civil war were the conservative party. They only started showing signs of liberalism with Wilson, and then more fully with Johnson. In the 60's, there were still a lot of confederate-like Democrats called Dixiecrats who didn't favor civil rights. But again, most of my historical references were regarding conservatives and liberals. The party names are not reliable measures of conservatism.

I would like to add to this with corrections based on beating this topic to death since around 1997 with many experts on those corrections.


a) Abe no doubt had more complex thoughts on the emancipation proclamation but we know by this time it was not to free anybody. The two reasons given while correct from our vantage point, during his era he no doubt was more complex on his reaons. I say this with books at hand but it's not so vital we need to slice and dice further.
b) KKK is important in my opinion to get it more correct. Forest became the president but I believe he did not form it. And he quit it and I believe it was that he did not condone violence of all things. Strange one might think that a celebrated calvary officer would have such feelings about violence.
c) powerful explanation of the 1964 law given and true as said by Gaffer. Democrats are so dishonest about what happened over the 1964 civil rights act. They invent history and divert to things that don't matter. Such as discussing dixiecrats.
d)a profound experience for me was the Berlin Wall, going into East Germany and so forth. I also had a German fiancee who was born and raised in East Germany. Her father was prominent in his town there in the east. When I spent time asking questions and listening to the story of communism, I came away despising communism. Later on I realized my part in the Democrats party was good for communism but bad for America. I then quit the democrat party.
e)This idea that the Democrats were the conservative party makes no sense at all. The label conservative is not understood very well. I find that when the left explains conservatives, they do it via their own bias, their own prejudices. It hints that those who voted for Abe wanted to toss off the Union to change it somehow. Surely they understand that Lincoln did not have in mind eliminating the constitution though by his acts one may well think it was his purpose.
I can't see how conserving the union as Abe wanted to do would be anything other than being a conservative.
Abe wanted to keep the old ways. Even when he attacked VA, he did say he wanted to preserve the union.
Finally those who see clearly realize that democrats plans are to sieze more and more control till we have only heard of freedom. Freedom will be a distant memory the way democrats work.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Laws to restrict your freedom or my freedom is not the correct answer. I agree with the above solution but want to add to it.

Those who kill innocent people have surely been studied. The problem with them is mental.

Many millions have guns. Yet only a slender number end up killing humans. And they have as much remorse as the man setting out the mouse trap has.

Surely the professionals have some information that can be used by the public to add to your solution and to try to corral those who will kill from the populaton. They had interacted with family members, teachers and other professionals.

Let's stop making you and me the target and get after those who could really kill.

I think among gun onwers, if the goverment goes after the proper targets, the potential killer, they will get much more cooperation from we gun owners.

It's mad to target us when we don't own guns to kill humans with them.

We need to stop making this a political war. Obama uses it to attack our 2nd Amendment. That is lunacy . People robbed banks they didn t go out and try to disarm every citizen because of it. Instead they concentrated on where the deeds occurred. The built better secured banks, better safes and hired armed security. Armed guards at schools are a far better choice than disarming every citizen. Government prefers disarming all the citizens because its about control not about saving the kids!
When government actively seeks that level of control you know they intend on enslaving you and me , history repeatedly gives evidence of that TRUTH!
THE GOVERNMENT RECENTLY GOT CAUGHT STAGING VIOLENCE TO USE AS A POLITICAL TOOL AGAINST GUN RIGHTS--FAST AND FURIOUS. The bastard in charge had to issue a royal decree -E.0.- to protect his doings in it.
Folks, we have an illegal government operating now, how could it not be with a traitor in charge??-Tyr


A way to spot socialists (not saying you are one) is how they look at solving problems.

We conservatives have this awful habit of looking at the problem then getting solutions that really work.

Take guns for instance.

We see the shooter as the problem.

We do not see guns or clips or ammo as the problem.

Those items are simply personal property.

Let's use a bird problem to shed light on my remarks.

Birds at airports can cause airplanes to crash. Especially if the airplanes happen to have jet engines.

To solve the problem, you don't tell birds they must obey some new law.

You find out what birds are the problem. You find out how to frighten them if nothing else works, and you solve the problem the correct way.

We gun owners feel we will be victims and caused by some mad men who seem to me to be mentally ill.

Do not solve the problem of the mental killers by making laws that we don't want and don't plan to obey.

We conservatives too often yield to bullshat solutions dreamed up by dumbass liberals/dems.
We are guilty of not fighting back like they do.
They go for the most extreme action to force us to yield down to other stupid policies that are designed to rob our freedoms by degrees.
Stop freaking yielding would be the appropriate response. They want a third world socialism here and we'll have it sooner or later if we do not fight..-Tyr

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Kathianne http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=606146#post606146)
Try to switch your thinking to 21st C., OK? Which voting group is saying that the course we are on, brought to us all by both major political parties is on the wrong trajectory? There are several correct answers here, none of which are democrat or republican.

Then the choice for the electorate, those aware that would be, are they for expanding and protecting individual rights or for supplanting individual rights for a 'common goal?' Which would you support?

Bingster replies


As for the voting group saying we are on the wrong trajectory, I'd have to say the Tea Party. Although the poles are close to 50/50 on this. As for individual rights vs common goal, it's a little more complicated. Individual rights like "equal protection" and "right to chose" are supported by the liberals and gun rights are more supported by the conservatives-both sides are possible with some limits. I also don't think it's wrong to support a worthy "common goal". What's wrong with having a safety net for our elderly and poor; being ethical in world affairs; improving our schools so that our country can better compete in the global market? I don't accept the premise of your statement that it has to be a choice between individual rights and common goal.

What about the actual parteis such as the Libertarian party. The so called Tea Party is not a registered party in any state. I would call this a citizens movement.

I think they have not yet joined the Libertarians but some may join.

Right to choose what? Were another life not involved that can't choose, it would be simple. If a woman wants to remove her breasts, she has the entire right to do that. But treating the baby in her body like it is something akin to her fingers or breats is crazy. She kills a life. All life should be important to democrats if they really did believe in equal life.

I am on the safety net so feel my comments ought to have some weight.
It is not a safety net for all. (more like a Ponzi scheme) Many don't need any of that. The man with a few million dollars in assets does not rely on a social security check to stay alive. A man with millions of investments is in sound condition.

But the budget to pay for this hits not only the living hard, it hits the kids of today hard down the road and their kids even harder. IT is like a huge sink hole. It can't be paid for.

And while I appreciate you paying me to stay alive, you many not notice I am getting an enormous profit. Which is why I call it a Ponzi Scheme. I feel like my rather small investment in Social Security though well appreciated is not smart for a country. Not one that wants to be a solvent country. Even now, during Obama, this nations credit rating sank. That should not have happened.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=606262#post606262)
A way to spot socialists (not saying you are one) is how they look at solving problems.

We conservatives have this awful habit of looking at the problem then getting solutions that really work.

Take guns for instance.

We see the shooter as the problem.

We do not see guns or clips or ammo as the problem.

Those items are simply personal property.

Let's use a bird problem to shed light on my remarks.

Birds at airports can cause airplanes to crash. Especially if the airplanes happen to have jet engines.

To solve the problem, you don't tell birds they must obey some new law.

You find out what birds are the problem. You find out how to frighten them if nothing else works, and you solve the problem the correct way.

We gun owners feel we will be victims and caused by some mad men who seem to me to be mentally ill.

Do not solve the problem of the mental killers by making laws that we don't want and don't plan to obey.

We conservatives too often yield to bullshat solutions dreamed up by dumbass liberals/dems.
We are guilty of not fighting back like they do.
They go for the most extreme action to force us to yield down to other stupid policies that are designed to rob our freedoms by degrees.
Stop freaking yielding would be the appropriate response. They want a third world socialism here and we'll have it sooner or later if we do not fight..-Tyr

You and I try to use sound arguments to appeal to their conscience. The problem with that approach is far to many of them have no conscience. Sure, some have conscience. But when they take from their own neighbors (called taxpayers) their just wages to use as they see fit, calling it a safety net or saving the poor, they are lying. They pretend it was them that helped the poor when they know very well they took from a person that spent time and effort trying to become better off. The lesson learned by the poor is simple. Vote for democrats and watch them rob somebody and then hand over that money to you. Most republicans are not real rich nor are they poor. Most have spent more time planning a life than democrats are willing to spend. We try to teach them the old lesson of life, ie. hand a man a fish and call it a safety net and he will depend on you to keep handing him fish, but teach him to fish and he survives for life. Democrats in my opinion have no principles that lead to maximum freedom. This country was supposed to be the haven for freedom. But democrats want to ruin that for the entire country. Any Democrat that does not understand that simply does not understand the nature of his own party.


We need to stop making this a political war. Obama uses it to attack our 2nd Amendment. That is lunacy . People robbed banks they didn t go out and try to disarm every citizen because of it. Instead they concentrated on where the deeds occurred. The built better secured banks, better safes and hired armed security. Armed guards at schools are a far better choice than disarming every citizen. Government prefers disarming all the citizens because its about control not about saving the kids!
When government actively seeks that level of control you know they intend on enslaving you and me , history repeatedly gives evidence of that TRUTH!
THE GOVERNMENT RECENTLY GOT CAUGHT STAGING VIOLENCE TO USE AS A POLITICAL TOOL AGAINST GUN RIGHTS--FAST AND FURIOUS. The bastard in charge had to issue a royal decree -E.0.- to protect his doings in it.
Folks, we have an illegal government operating now, how could it not be with a traitor in charge??-Tyr

So well stated I can't change a thought.

Democrats are masters of pretending.

Ever think why most of the entertainment bunch are democrats? They love pretending.
Why is it well known that the media is so biased for democrats?

Again, pretending. See, by running around trying to drag up bad news, and spreading the gospel of bad news around this country, they pretend they are part of fixing things.

So, when they tell us about that case of the kids getting shot, they actually make sure they rub our noses in the story. And why do that? To try to make changes.

We have a media that is not out to inform, but it wants to make changes. Same thing Obama wants. They are his ally.

Have you ever thought of what creates positive action?

When they found gold in CA, it was GOOD news. And men rushed to CA by the tens of thousands. Maybe it was a million men. But when it is bad news, often men leave that area. That killing in CT won't spur population growth of that small town. I have driven past that area and recall the general lay of the land. I liked the area. But that killing won't attract people to that city.

Now look at North Dakota. The good news was the Baaken oil finds. That was such good news not only did it act to make their small towns larger, but a lot of good is happening because so many people are getting plenty of cash.

Tracts of homes go up. Areas that were in the sticks will have some hard working people show up since the lazy jerks will stay where Democrats are to be supported by the general public. Democrats hate oil since it creates jobs. Create jobs and they change parties and leave the democrats.

The Democrats are the proper party for thieves and those who live to suck off the work of their neighbors.

[mundame]

I'll keep pushing for the big clip ban, background checks, national registry, etc.... Doing nothing is the wrong answer.


My wish list is 1) a ban of these AR-15s, all of them. Illegal to buy, illegal to own. They are for assaulting and killing large numbers of people. That's wrong. Get rid of them all.

2) a ban on all large-capacity magazines for everything, all types of guns. Same as above: they have no function except for killing lots of people and that is wrong.

3) Many more state mental hospitals and mentally ill people readily confined in them for long periods of time whenever necessary rather than the almost no incarceration or medical treatment possible now. Quick incarceration: I want the men in the white coats with the butterfly nets back like in the old days. That was better.

4) But if mentally ill persons commit crimes, they don't go to asylums, they go to prison. This is actually normal now, since the Hinckley case. I don't want mental hospitals crowded with the criminally insane who could simply be in prisons. Mental hospital should be for incarcerating psychotics who are not committing crimes but who should not be allowed to roam freely.

5) SOMEthing done about the extreme violence and long hours of training young men put in with shooter video games and violent movies. What, I don't know; needs a separate thread.

[Robert A Whit]

My wish list is 1) a ban of these AR-15s, all of them. Illegal to buy, illegal to own. They are for assaulting and killing large numbers of people. That's wrong. Get rid of them all.

2) a ban on all large-capacity magazines for everything, all types of guns. Same as above: they have no function except for killing lots of people and that is wrong.

3) Many more state mental hospitals and mentally ill people readily confined in them for long periods of time whenever necessary rather than the almost no incarceration or medical treatment possible now. Quick incarceration: I want the men in the white coats with the butterfly nets back like in the old days. That was better.

4) But if mentally ill persons commit crimes, they don't go to asylums, they go to prison. This is actually normal now, since the Hinckley case. I don't want mental hospitals crowded with the criminally insane who could simply be in prisons. Mental hospital should be for incarcerating psychotics who are not committing crimes but who should not be allowed to roam freely.

5) SOMEthing done about the extreme violence and long hours of training young men put in with shooter video games and violent movies. What, I don't know; needs a separate thread.

Well, out of 5 points, points 3/4 were valid. They went to solve the actual problem. Sadly the rest missed the mark.

[jimnyc]

My wish list is 1) a ban of these AR-15s, all of them. Illegal to buy, illegal to own. They are for assaulting and killing large numbers of people. That's wrong. Get rid of them all.

The AR15 is not designed for killing large numbers, it just doesn't. It doesn't fire faster than your typical hunting rifle. I'm baffled as to why I have shown you specific specs and what not, time and time again, and for whatever reason you still don't understand the weapon, or refuse to do so and are just adamant about having guns removed and won't listen to reason.


2) a ban on all large-capacity magazines for everything, all types of guns. Same as above: they have no function except for killing lots of people and that is wrong.

Also explained, banning these will not change things. Someone on a rampage will take just a few short seconds longer to shoot off 200 rounds than someone with the largest clips.

[Robert A Whit]

The AR15 is not designed for killing large numbers, it just doesn't. It doesn't fire faster than your typical hunting rifle. I'm baffled as to why I have shown you specific specs and what not, time and time again, and for whatever reason you still don't understand the weapon, or refuse to do so and are just adamant about having guns removed and won't listen to reason.

I think why some called the AR-15 or rather the military version, inhumane was not that it was such a killer, but it was such a weapon that injures. The bullets come in 40 grain or 90 grain. Both bullets are very small. I expect when they hit any animal other thzn perhaps some of the huge African animals the bullet quickly shows down and tumbles inside the tsrget. And of course adds to a non lethal injury. I recall shooting an AR-15 in the 1970s and it seemed to me to be good for small animals.

As I said, during our Army training we were told that the bullets by injuring the enemy caused the enemy to consume many more men to care for the injured than just killing them would. Do you know that at no time in my training did they teach us to do head shots. I think to be honest they hoped that once in combat they could get enough of us to shoot at the enemy rather than duck into safety to do some damage to the enemy.

Now, I shot bullets that I believe weighed over 200 grains. But even the 180 grain with lead bullets or soft noses have more chances to kill than the AR-15 tiny bullet has.


So well stated I can't change a thought.

Democrats are masters of pretending.

Ever think why most of the entertainment bunch are democrats? They love pretending.
Why is it well known that the media is so biased for democrats?

Again, pretending. See, by running around trying to drag up bad news, and spreading the gospel of bad news around this country, they pretend they are part of fixing things.

So, when they tell us about that case of the kids getting shot, they actually make sure they rub our noses in the story. And why do that? To try to make changes.

We have a media that is not out to inform, but it wants to make changes. Same thing Obama wants. They are his ally.

Have you ever thought of what creates positive action?

When they found gold in CA, it was GOOD news. And men rushed to CA by the tens of thousands. Maybe it was a million men. But when it is bad news, often men leave that area. That killing in CT won't spur population growth of that small town. I have driven past that area and recall the general lay of the land. I liked the area. But that killing won't attract people to that city.

Now look at North Dakota. The good news was the Baaken oil finds. That was such good news not only did it act to make their small towns larger, but a lot of good is happening because so many people are getting plenty of cash.

Tracts of homes go up. Areas that were in the sticks will have some hard working people show up since the lazy jerks will stay where Democrats are to be supported by the general public. Democrats hate oil since it creates jobs. Create jobs and they change parties and leave the democrats.

The Democrats are the proper party for thieves and those who live to suck off the work of their neighbors.

On Baaken, who has also noticed that the media has not really got on board with the oil from those fields in N. Dakota and E Montana?

What can se say the mood of the media is over the Keystone Pipeline project?


Thank you for the compliment. I agree, there are a lot of people who use this forum to bully people and call names. I'm currently unemployed and am dying for intellectual expression.

Your realistic view of this issue is what's so weak about the liberal position. That's why the bill or collection of bills that need to pass must be an all-encompassing approach. I agree with the assault weapon part, but the background check and national registry should be a no-brainer. More should be done for the mentally ill and maybe something should be done regarding movies and video games.

The biggest problem right now is not that there are no solutions. There isn't much that is politically possible. Hand guns account for the vast majority of gun deaths in this country and there no way to ban them. That's why we need to make sure that at least legally, only responsible people should be allowed to have them. The most insane number I've heard lately is that 40% of gun sales do not require a background check.

I also think some kind of public service announcement program might be helpful. I know the right will accuse us of propaganda, but there are plenty of surveys out there that say you are not statistically safer with a handgun in your home, for example. I wish that information would get out there somehow, but realistically, I'm sure the NRA would also buy airtime and turn it into a ad war. I'm afraid this can get ugly and I'm worried there may even be attacks on our government because of this issue.

He is talking to Mundame to keep this from being confused.

Almost zero criminals use assault weapons. I don't classify knock offs that shoot one bullet per trigger squeeze as assault weapons. A revolver takes a squeeze per shot and don't get assault weapons. I have a .22 cal semi automatic pistol and I can't imagine it to be an assault weapon.

She lives in Maryland and a guy I used to post with on an AOL forum lives in MD and he kept informing us all that the state was a vipers nest of Democrats. She claims to be a shooter but what if she felt like they came after her guns?

She fears the assault weapons. Well hells bells, why not fear the real dangerous guns. Such as the 9 mm Glock.

But hell no, she does not fear that gun, she fears the gun with the teeeeny bullet. The AR-15. Then she fears the AK-47. Now that bullet is dangerous. I mean to kill rather than simply injure.

If one studies gun massacres, I invite you to analyze this way.

First you will notice the dead. But some sites count shots. They count injured.

If the guy shoots 100 times but kills 5, this tells you that even with a semi automatic, his chances of hitting 100 people are maybe 5 percent. I have yet to find any site showing me that the kill rate is over say 10 percent.

If a man has an accurate 9 mm pistol that is semi automatic and goes for the head shots, as the killer in CT did, his chances are that he will actually kill many more.

But the automatic weapon (such as AK-47) bounces all over. The M-16 by being such a tiny caliber and with not much powder and a small grain bullet is easier to aim. But the bullet seems to me to be more to injure than to kill. As Jim points out, the AR-15 most have is not the automatic M-16 that looks like the AR-15.

I remind those who have any machine gun, they need federal permits.


But it's still .223 ammo, just like the Bushmaster .223, and without fully auto, is no different than your average hunting rifle, just looks like an M16.

The well versed shooters understand something but I wonder how many posters fully understand what I am about to say.

First study the ammo. That is what does the damage. The gun can look as the designers wanted it to look but it is designed to get ammo from point A to point B.

Take the 30.06 as used by the Army via the M-1 Garand or the 7.62 ammo.

The bullets are not only much larger diameter, but a lot heaver. And the cases have much more powder. These bullets have much more shocking power than does the ammo for the small bore
M-16/AR-15

I like to keep in mind that when a bullet hits an animal, it must have shocking power. The Army loves bullets that hurt the enemy. Civilians probably think the bullets we used were designed to kill humans. My Army trainers informed all of us the bullets were to injure.

Ammo such as hunters use is designed to kill.

I have reloaded a fair amount of ammo. I had to study the various bullets and powders used to shoot ammo.

I have not reloaded the small ammo used for the .223 but have looked at the dimensions of the cartridges and the size of the bullets and so forth.

Folks, if you want to kill a rabbit, use the AR-15. If you plan to kill humans, you need the proper weapon. Most killers favor something like the 9MM. That bullet is smaller than the 45 cal but larger than the 30 cal. I think it is 354 cal. That one in hunting ammo would really mess up your day.

[jimnyc]

Thanks for all the information on the guns, Robert. While I love to read what others are willing to share, those against guns won't really read a word. They will call for a ban of a scary looking gun even if it shoots water or paintballs.

[fj1200]

:beer:... Thanks RW..

FJ gets it ,now that its been explained to him...;)--Tyr

There was an explanation in there? It looked like mere unsubstantiated opinion that neither of you apparently have the ability to back up.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

There was an explanation in there? It looked like mere unsubstantiated opinion that neither of you apparently have the ability to back up.

Sure was. Not shocked at all that you failed to see or understand it. Of course with your automatic rejection on full tilt why would you? -Tyr

[fj1200]

Sure was. Not shocked at all that you failed to see or understand it. Of course with your automatic rejection on full tilt why would you? -Tyr

Robert offered no explanation, just sycophantic obsequiousness.