Protestant Ministers Continue To Preach Hatred

[Kathianne]

I remember reading the screeds from Billy Graham from the 50's and 60's, vile anti-Catholicism, undertones of racial bigotry. All in all, hate preaching and teaching. Once I went to 'Bible Summer School' at a Presbyterian Church with my best friend, it was the church her family belonged to. When the teacher found out I was Catholic, she told me that if I stayed so, I'd got to hell. Catholics were worse than the Jews. Yeah, her family changed churches, interesting since her grandfather had donated the land and built that church himself. Then again, he was sort of anti-Catholic himself.

From most here and other forums, seems those lessons are still going on, their flocks have bought into it for sure. Maybe Phelps is just a rung down lower on the ladder.

It's funny, most folks I'm friends with are Protestants, they really regret the things they leaned in their churches and church classes years ago. Then again, they are educated enough not to confuse child abusers with Catholics as a whole or blame Catholics for the cover-ups that happened.

[revelarts]

I remember reading the screeds from Billy Graham from the 50's and 60's, vile anti-Catholicism, undertones of racial bigotry. All in all, hate preaching and teaching. Once I went to 'Bible Summer School' at a Presbyterian Church with my best friend, it was the church her family belonged to. When the teacher found out I was Catholic, she told me that if I stayed so, I'd got to hell. Catholics were worse than the Jews. Yeah, her family changed churches, interesting since her grandfather had donated the land and built that church himself. Then again, he was sort of anti-Catholic himself.

From most here and other forums, seems those lessons are still going on, their flocks have bought into it for sure. Maybe Phelps is just a rung down lower on the ladder.

It's funny, most folks I'm friends with are Protestants, they really regret the things they leaned in their churches and church classes years ago. Then again, they are educated enough not to confuse child abusers with Catholics as a whole or blame Catholics for the cover-ups that happened.

is there a link, or did you just want to make the comment?

[Robert A Whit]

I remember reading the screeds from Billy Graham from the 50's and 60's, vile anti-Catholicism, undertones of racial bigotry. All in all, hate preaching and teaching. Once I went to 'Bible Summer School' at a Presbyterian Church with my best friend, it was the church her family belonged to. When the teacher found out I was Catholic, she told me that if I stayed so, I'd got to hell. Catholics were worse than the Jews. Yeah, her family changed churches, interesting since her grandfather had donated the land and built that church himself. Then again, he was sort of anti-Catholic himself.

From most here and other forums, seems those lessons are still going on, their flocks have bought into it for sure. Maybe Phelps is just a rung down lower on the ladder.

It's funny, most folks I'm friends with are Protestants, they really regret the things they leaned in their churches and church classes years ago. Then again, they are educated enough not to confuse child abusers with Catholics as a whole or blame Catholics for the cover-ups that happened.

I attended with my SIL and my daughter one Billy Graham conference in San Jose, CA. I found him to be very kind. I can't recall any of so called hate speech from the man.

The Catholics appear to be fighting back due to the many poor press coverages heaped only os far as I am aware of on the heads of those who molested children. I don't for one second believe that to be how most of the priests are.

BTW, to date, I have never heard any scandal of any sort proclamed about my church.

[darin]

Where is the "continue" part? Every Protestant church I know of LOVES catholic people as well as folks from every faith - or lack-of-faith.


Certian things inside Catholicism bug the hell out of me; most of the things that bother me also have little scriptural confirmation, yet Catholics hold-fast. Not understanding why a particular faith holds tradition in such regard does not mean I hate.

[tailfins]

I remember reading the screeds from Billy Graham from the 50's and 60's, vile anti-Catholicism, undertones of racial bigotry. All in all, hate preaching and teaching. Once I went to 'Bible Summer School' at a Presbyterian Church with my best friend, it was the church her family belonged to. When the teacher found out I was Catholic, she told me that if I stayed so, I'd got to hell. Catholics were worse than the Jews. Yeah, her family changed churches, interesting since her grandfather had donated the land and built that church himself. Then again, he was sort of anti-Catholic himself.

From most here and other forums, seems those lessons are still going on, their flocks have bought into it for sure. Maybe Phelps is just a rung down lower on the ladder.

It's funny, most folks I'm friends with are Protestants, they really regret the things they leaned in their churches and church classes years ago. Then again, they are educated enough not to confuse child abusers with Catholics as a whole or blame Catholics for the cover-ups that happened.

The key is to separate their evaluation as citizens versus spiritually. Anti-abortion activism has broken down lots of barriers. Hard-core Fundamental Baptists have learned to accept help fighting abortion from Catholics and Mormons and not comment in the spiritual aspects unless asked. If they ask all bets are off. I wonder what kind of help Fundamental Baptists could expect from Muslims in the effort to oppose abortion on demand.

[Abbey Marie]

The Catholic Church does a ton of good in the world, and would be sorely missed if it crumbled. Take the big picture, and no one should want to see them fail.

A relatively few gay pedophiles, who probably chose the church as a feasible cover for being gay (can't marry anyway), and for accessibility to altar boys, have given it a black eye. (Though the church cover-ups are what make people fault the church much more than the actual gay pedophilia).

Any and all faiths, and non-faiths, are susceptible to such disgusting activities among its leaders. The Catholic Church has more than their share of this problem because they are a huge organization, coupled with the aforementioned handy gayness-cover, and the accessibility. (As we know, pedophiles love to take coaching, teaching, etc., jobs for that very reason). Unless the Church has published Hadith-like works promoting such activities as part of the faith, you can't blame the Church as a whole for this.

As for Billy Graham, he may have been more fiery and less wise when he was young. If you read his books or listen to him, he is so clearly a godly man with a great, much-needed message. I wouldn't choose him to be a bad example.

[tailfins]

I remember reading the screeds from Billy Graham from the 50's and 60's, vile anti-Catholicism, undertones of racial bigotry. All in all, hate preaching and teaching. Once I went to 'Bible Summer School' at a Presbyterian Church with my best friend, it was the church her family belonged to. When the teacher found out I was Catholic, she told me that if I stayed so, I'd got to hell. Catholics were worse than the Jews. Yeah, her family changed churches, interesting since her grandfather had donated the land and built that church himself. Then again, he was sort of anti-Catholic himself.

From most here and other forums, seems those lessons are still going on, their flocks have bought into it for sure. Maybe Phelps is just a rung down lower on the ladder.

It's funny, most folks I'm friends with are Protestants, they really regret the things they leaned in their churches and church classes years ago. Then again, they are educated enough not to confuse child abusers with Catholics as a whole or blame Catholics for the cover-ups that happened.

If Billy Graham bothers you, I can only imagine what you say about Jerry Falwell (Baptist) and Pat Robertson (Pentecostal).

[Kathianne]

Regarding Relevarts asking for a link, I'm going more on, "judging by behavior, not words."

Robert, the Billy Graham screeds were from 40's and 50's. I believe his father did the same, before that. He changed some of his beliefs or at least his way of approaching Catholicism some of the self-righteous, hate-filled, claiming to know the mind of God protestants were and are not happy campers:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/billy_graham-apostasy.htm


Billy Graham, Catholicism, and Apostasy
(or should we call him BILLY BALAAM?)....

Oh yes, they care so much for the 'souls' of others. Gag me, hypocrites. That is a log, not a splinter.

[tailfins]

Regarding Relevarts asking for a link, I'm going more on, "judging by behavior, not words."

Robert, the Billy Graham screeds were from 40's and 50's. I believe his father did the same, before that. He changed some of his beliefs or at least his way of approaching Catholicism some of the self-righteous, hate-filled, claiming to know the mind of God protestants were and are not happy campers:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/billy_graham-apostasy.htm



Oh yes, they care so much for the 'souls' of others. Gag me, hypocrites. That is a log, not a splinter.


Remember the "dont-ask-dont-tell" point of view I mentioned earlier in this thread? By visiting their web page, you "asked" and were "told". Many of those would accept your help in an anti-abortion effort and everyone would agree to stay away from such topics.

[Robert A Whit]

The Catholic Church does a ton of good in the world, and would be sorely missed if it crumbled. Take the big picture, and no one should want to see them fail. A relatively few gay pedophiles, who probably chose the church as a feasible cover for being gay (can't marry anyway), and for accessibility to altar boys, have given it a black eye. (Though the church cover-ups are what make people fault the church much more than the actual gay pedophilia). Any and all faiths, and non-faiths, are susceptible to such disgusting activities among its leaders. The Catholic Church has more than their share of this problem because they are a huge organization, coupled with the aforementioned handy gayness-cover, and the accessibility. (As we know, pedophiles love to take coaching, teaching, etc., jobs for that very reason). Unless the Church has published Hadith-like works promoting such activities as part of the faith, you can't blame the Church as a whole for this. As for Billy Graham, he may have been more fiery and less wise when he was young. If you read his books or listen to him, he is so clearly a godly man with a great, much-needed message. I wouldn't choose him to be a bad example.I very much enjoy how you present arguments and yourself.How young are Alter boys? When I read the term pedophile, I rush to try to define it the correct way. I understand that some sloppy dictionaries have some other looser view. We need to understand what the term ped means. By itself it may not seem to be a word but those boys under puberty are those that are peds. To be a pedophile means the boy under puberty is affected. Or girl as the case may be.Abbey, as a Mormon not going to church, I agree that Catholics globally do a lot of good. I don't try to make them pay for things done to humans way back. I don't think it fair to the current Catholics. Some in the church appear to have covered up. I wonder if most of the authorities of the church took action though. I don't see it as a core belief to molest children.You may wonder why I take issue over the term pedophile. At age 15/16 as a boy scout a guy in the church tried to pull that crap on me when I slept at his parents home. He was older. I shut him right down. But I was post puberty. I don't suspect he took interest in the tots.
Robert, the Billy Graham screeds were from 40's and 50's. I believe his father did the same, before that. He changed some of his beliefs or at least his way of approaching Catholicism some of the self-righteous, hate-filled, claiming to know the mind of God protestants were and are not happy campers:Kathianne, as I stated, my only contact with the man was at a time his age was very old. I had never personally seen him prior to that event. I don't follow the man nor do I know for a FACT that much about the man. My SIL invited me so I went with the family. My SIL attends church regularly and has been a regular to several denominations. My contact with Catholics was as a 1st grader and the teacher had us sign up to learn Catholic beliefs. I believe I lasted one meeting. I attended a Catholic friends funeral. I had gone to Las Vegas to see him a few days ahead of his death by car accident. I thought the Catholic services were very well done. As of now,I have not attended one of your Mass.

[Kathianne]

Remember the "dont-ask-dont-tell" point of view I mentioned earlier in this thread? By visiting their web page, you "asked" and were "told". Many of those would accept your help in an anti-abortion effort and everyone would agree to stay away from such topics.

Nah, I've been observing Protestant posters doing the 'apostasy' calls, countless threads on 'evil' priests and stupid, condoning Catholics. As I said, 'actions, not words.' Their eye, their logs. I just find them hateful, that's all. I don't think they'll change, just glad I know enough non-hateful to not condemn all. I actually am amused to some degree, that they feel they represent the best of Christ.

[Robert A Whit]

Nah, I've been observing Protestant posters doing the 'apostasy' calls, countless threads on 'evil' priests and stupid, condoning Catholics. As I said, 'actions, not words.' Their eye, their logs. I just find them hateful, that's all. I don't think they'll change, just glad I know enough non-hateful to not condemn all. I actually am amused to some degree, that they feel they represent the best of Christ.

What apostasy calls? Did you mean condemning Catholics above?

They don't need to do things like that. It makes them look bad.

[Kathianne]

The Catholic Church does a ton of good in the world, and would be sorely missed if it crumbled. Take the big picture, and no one should want to see them fail.

A relatively few gay pedophiles, who probably chose the church as a feasible cover for being gay (can't marry anyway), and for accessibility to altar boys, have given it a black eye. (Though the church cover-ups are what make people fault the church much more than the actual gay pedophilia).

Any and all faiths, and non-faiths, are susceptible to such disgusting activities among its leaders. The Catholic Church has more than their share of this problem because they are a huge organization, coupled with the aforementioned handy gayness-cover, and the accessibility. (As we know, pedophiles love to take coaching, teaching, etc., jobs for that very reason). Unless the Church has published Hadith-like works promoting such activities as part of the faith, you can't blame the Church as a whole for this.

As for Billy Graham, he may have been more fiery and less wise when he was young. If you read his books or listen to him, he is so clearly a godly man with a great, much-needed message. I wouldn't choose him to be a bad example.

A fair summary, though it seems more concern for what the Church provides to all, than anything about the Church or it's members. I can live with that. I do think you're incorrect though that the 'concern' is the cover up, while certainly true for Catholics, not so much for Protestants, they like to 'not let a crisis go unexploited.' As I said, hatefully accusing Catholics of supporting both the abusers and the cover ups.

I just finished reading the Wiki entry on Graham, which is mostly fair, though skips the ant-Catholic messages, certainly not the racial or Jewish ones. Do I think he changed later? Yes. A big difference after Nixon. I too think he became a better person, indeed I see him as more enlightened than many of those that 'followed him.'


What apostasy calls? Did you mean condemning Catholics above?

They don't need to do things like that. It makes them look bad.

No. The accusation that Catholics are heretics, leading others to perdition. See, 'they worship idols,' 'they are a false religion,' 'They are not Christian,' goes on and on. As I said, they were raised in the environment of hate, they believe they are doing 'God's work' by pointing such out. Really.

[tailfins]

Nah, I've been observing Protestant posters doing the 'apostasy' calls, countless threads on 'evil' priests and stupid, condoning Catholics. As I said, 'actions, not words.' Their eye, their logs. I just find them hateful, that's all. I don't think they'll change, just glad I know enough non-hateful to not condemn all. I actually am amused to some degree, that they feel they represent the best of Christ.


Most consider abortion a bigger evil than Catholicism and will bite their tongue if Catholic help will score an anti-abortion victory. You might have some fun with SOME asking "I know that's what you're told to say, but what do you really think"? Believing something in a vacuum is one thing, seeing it challenged in real life is another. Housewives, full time pastors and seminary students have the luxury of throwing such red meat. Others don't.

[revelarts]

Regarding Relevarts asking for a link, I'm going more on, "judging by behavior, not words."

Robert, the Billy Graham screeds were from 40's and 50's. I believe his father did the same, before that. He changed some of his beliefs or at least his way of approaching Catholicism some of the self-righteous, hate-filled, claiming to know the mind of God protestants were and are not happy campers:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/billy_graham-apostasy.htm



Oh yes, they care so much for the 'souls' of others. Gag me, hypocrites. That is a log, not a splinter.

I wasn't asking for proof, I know Billy Graham and others have in the past ,and some now, preach against various Catholic doctrines, and sometimes more in a strident way.
I was just wondering why you brought it up just now.


I don't want to get into it with you at all but that Sunday school teacher was an @ss to say that to a kid.
But the protestant v catholic head butting is not something new. Catholics and Protestants used to kill each other over the same points that now , if people are mature about it , they can talk about vigorously over dinner and still go home friends. I've listened to conferences where scholars, both Protestants and Catholics, have presented their positions. Neither giving way on their views, but ending by simply agreeing to disagree. Without saying that the other is filled with hate.
I get the impression you've been hurt by people who've been a too strident for your taste but I hope you can understand that some people , even highly educated ones, might not have the same view as you do. Unity and compromise is not necesarilly a sign of truth. but everyone should be approached with a spirit of love.

[Abbey Marie]

No. The accusation that Catholics are heretics, leading others to perdition. See, 'they worship idols,' 'they are a false religion,' 'They are not Christian,' goes on and on. As I said, they were raised in the environment of hate, they believe they are doing 'God's work' by pointing such out. Really.

You are correct that some Protestant, or more likely, non-denom, churches, imply that Catholics are essentially lost souls in need of salvation. Given that there are a multitude of core beliefs that we share, I never felt comfortable with that.

It reminds me of the Northern Ireland situation. My in-laws participated in a group that brought one Irish Protestant and one Irish Catholic child to stay with them for a while. The idea I believe was for them to see that they have much more in common than they have differences. I suspect if you put any Christian denoms together in a cleric-ruled Muslim country, they would all quickly band together and forget their differences.

[Kathianne]

Most consider abortion a bigger evil than Catholicism and will bite their tongue if Catholic help will score an anti-abortion victory. You might have some fun with SOME asking "I know that's what you're told to say, but what do you really think"? Believing something in a vacuum is one thing, seeing it challenged in real life is another. Housewives, full time pastors and seminary students have the luxury of throwing such red meat. Others don't.

I don't think the Church cares whether or not they 'get support' from fundies, the Church has always preached against abortion, genocide, and euthanasia. They are strongly against the death penalty. The definition of life for the Church is conception, and the Church preaches against contraception.

That last though, the percentage of Catholics in the US that follows? Same as Protestants.


You are correct that some Protestant, or more likely, non-denom, churches, imply that Catholics are essentially lost souls in need of salvation. Given that there are a multitude of core beliefs that we share, I never felt comfortable with that.

It reminds me of the Northern Ireland situation. My in-laws participated in a group that brought one Irish Protestant and one Irish Catholic child to stay with them for a while. The idea I believe was for them to see that they have much more in common than they have differences. I suspect if you put any Christian denoms together in a cleric-ruled Muslim country, they would all quickly band together and forget their differences.

Presbyterians, many Baptists sects, fundies in general tend towards the ignorant beliefs regarding Catholicism.

You are correct regarding both the core beliefs and what would happen in a threatening environment. As my mom used to say, "Nothing clarifies your beliefs than a threat to them." Sort of why I began this thread, after reading the hate-filled, ignorant comments on Gabby's thread.

[gabosaurus]

Presbyterians, many Baptists sects, fundies in general tend towards the ignorant beliefs regarding Catholicism.

You are correct regarding both the core beliefs and what would happen in a threatening environment. As my mom used to say, "Nothing clarifies your beliefs than a threat to them." Sort of why I began this thread, after reading the hate-filled, ignorant comments on Gabby's thread.

I don't consider them "ignorant" at all. I can't recall the last time I have read about a Presbyterian, Baptist or Methodist clergyman accused of sexual abuse of parishioners.

As for this thread itself, I don't see how any religion can be accused of "preaching hate." I would hope they would preach the general love of God.
Some religious faiths tend to be a bit more strict in their beliefs than others. I don't recall other religions that cast out members who don't give enough money, or who violate basic tenets of faith.

My family attends a "spiritual" church. Our services are based around preaching, music and testifying about the Holy Spirit. Anyone so moved is free to clap their hands, dance or just shout "Amen!" Because that is what the love of God is about.

Attendance is not taken. There is no record kept about who gives what. Anyone is welcome to attend our services and worship our Lord and Savior.

[Kathianne]

I don't consider them "ignorant" at all. I can't recall the last time I have read about a Presbyterian, Baptist or Methodist clergyman accused of sexual abuse of parishioners.

As for this thread itself, I don't see how any religion can be accused of "preaching hate." I would hope they would preach the general love of God.
Some religious faiths tend to be a bit more strict in their beliefs than others. I don't recall other religions that cast out members who don't give enough money, or who violate basic tenets of faith.

My family attends a "spiritual" church. Our services are based around preaching, music and testifying about the Holy Spirit. Anyone so moved is free to clap their hands, dance or just shout "Amen!" Because that is what the love of God is about.

Attendance is not taken. There is no record kept about who gives what. Anyone is welcome to attend our services and worship our Lord and Savior.

Protestants have more haters than any other group in the US, certainly more than Republican haters. As for problems with ministers of the holy rollers, already posted a few from the past year on the thread you started.

[revelarts]

ok just for the record
whats a hater?

[tailfins]

I don't consider them "ignorant" at all. I can't recall the last time I have read about a Presbyterian, Baptist or Methodist clergyman accused of sexual abuse of parishioners.

As for this thread itself, I don't see how any religion can be accused of "preaching hate." I would hope they would preach the general love of God.
Some religious faiths tend to be a bit more strict in their beliefs than others. I don't recall other religions that cast out members who don't give enough money, or who violate basic tenets of faith.

My family attends a "spiritual" church. Our services are based around preaching, music and testifying about the Holy Spirit. Anyone so moved is free to clap their hands, dance or just shout "Amen!" Because that is what the love of God is about.

Attendance is not taken. There is no record kept about who gives what. Anyone is welcome to attend our services and worship our Lord and Savior.

Thank you for the compliment. There are however churches that fit the description of what you "don't recall". It seems you have never crossed paths with the Boston Church of Christ.

http://www.cultwatch.com/icc.html

[Voted4Reagan]

I don't consider them "ignorant" at all. I can't recall the last time I have read about a Presbyterian, Baptist or Methodist clergyman accused of sexual abuse of parishioners.

.

BAPTIST

http://www.abpnews.com/ministry/people/item/8061-accused-child-predator-must-stand-trial#.USv0F_Ji31A

http://stopbaptistpredators.org/scandals/bellevue.html

http://www.bilerico.com/2010/04/the_other_shoe_child_molesting_by_non-catholic_cle.php

Gabby, you just hate Catholics.... admit it...

[Kathianne]

ok just for the record
whats a hater?

As I'm using it, folks that think they have been 'saved' and know what God wants. Thus they feel compelled to let those not of their sect, know that they are condemned, unless they view God, the Bible, indeed the world through their vision. Share the vision or you are condemned to hell.

Truly it's something to behold, quite logical if one accepts the premises they've been inculcated with. They can't be 'hateful' as they are trying to 'SAVE.' Lots of similarities to extreme atheists in logic.

[revelarts]

As I'm using it, folks that think they have been 'saved' and know what God wants. Thus they feel compelled to let those not of their sect, know that they are condemned, unless they view God, the Bible, indeed the world through their vision. Share the vision or you are condemned to hell.

Truly it's something to behold, quite logical if one accepts the premises they've been inculcated with. They can't be 'hateful' as they are trying to 'SAVE.' Lots of similarities to extreme atheists in logic.

ok

[revelarts]

As I'm using it, folks that think they have been 'saved' and know what God wants. Thus they feel compelled to let those not of their sect, know that they are condemned, unless they view God, the Bible, indeed the world through their vision. Share the vision or you are condemned to hell.

Truly it's something to behold, quite logical if one accepts the premises they've been inculcated with. They can't be 'hateful' as they are trying to 'SAVE.' Lots of similarities to extreme atheists in logic.

but um don't Catholics think that, lets say, an atheist or voodoo practitioner might be in danger of hell and should maybe... possibly... think about not doing voodoo anymore and become a christian.

Are Catholics haters then too .. a little bit... maybe?
or does it only apply to protestants who want draw the circle tighter?

[Kathianne]

but um don't Catholics think that say an atheist or voodoo practitioner might be in danger of hell and should maybe possibly think about not doing voodo anymore and become a christian.

Are cathilics haters then .. a little bit... maybe.
or does it only apply to protestants who want draw the circle tighter.

Actually not so much. While one is 'saved' through Christ's sacrifice, ultimately only God knows one's heart, man cannot presume to do so.

For Catholics the concern is for oneself and one's soul. Can't prove we're saved or not, it's up to God, who's given us the path, it's up to us to follow.

So why do Catholics give and support so many different missions, financially and through personal sacrifice? It's what is taught. 'The least of my brothers.' Truth is Spanish missionaries were condemned by many Catholics as they forced 'conversions' on the indigenous people of the New World and In Africa, and in China. The Church can and should provide education, medical support, etc., without any force involved. If people want to know more about the religion, the bibles and classes are there.

In modern times in US, the Church began Marriage Encounters and many other ecumenical programs, without any attempts at conversion, indeed, the whole idea of 'evangelizing' for the Catholic Church is through works and examples, not through threats of damnation.

Personally have always thought, as an adult anyways, that fundies have a problem with the Church finding all but the gospels as being interpretive. That's just my take.

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=619892#post619892)

What apostasy calls? Did you mean condemning Catholics above?

They don't need to do things like that. It makes them look bad.




No. The accusation that Catholics are heretics, leading others to perdition. See, 'they worship idols,' 'they are a false religion,' 'They are not Christian,' goes on and on. As I said, they were raised in the environment of hate, they believe they are doing 'God's work' by pointing such out. Really.

You had said conform and I suspected you meant to say condemned. Visit your other comment.

Now that you bring up the worship of idols and saints and such. I understand what you are talking about. I can't see that matters at all to God if it be true.

Though I am a non practicing LDS, it seems to me that this fighting your church or others is not productive.

[revelarts]

Actually not so much. While one is 'saved' through Christ's sacrifice, ultimately only God knows one's heart, man cannot presume to do so.

For Catholics the concern is for oneself and one's soul. Can't prove we're saved or not, it's up to God, who's given us the path, it's up to us to follow.

So why do Catholics give and support so many different missions, financially and through personal sacrifice? It's what is taught. 'The least of my brothers.' Truth is Spanish missionaries were condemned by many Catholics as they forced 'conversions' on the indigenous people of the New World and In Africa, and in China. The Church can and should provide education, medical support, etc., without any force involved. If people want to know more about the religion, the bibles and classes are there.

In modern times in US, the Church began Marriage Encounters and many other ecumenical programs, without any attempts at conversion, indeed, the whole idea of 'evangelizing' for the Catholic Church is through works and examples, not through threats of damnation.

Personally have always thought, as an adult anyways, that fundies have a problem with the Church finding all but the gospels as being interpretive. That's just my take.

Ok 1st of all, do i get to make up a cool name to Catholics? 'Fundies' dripping with the example of Jesus love it .. c'mon Kath.

But to your points, Ok so your saying that TODAY, most Catholics don't think they need to evangelize anymore. just do good works and let people come in if they want to.
If that's your take on it fine. I hear you.
But i guess the question i still have is Do the voodoo priest and the atheist go to heaven if they flatly refuse to believe in Jesus Christ?
or ,in your opinion of what the Roman Catholic teaches, is it more a good works thing , Jesus is a take it or leave it option now a days.
Just do good and God is ,more than likely but u can't be sure, happy to have you in heaven?

I think you probably know my view and i'm not going to get into a debate with you on it here.
i really just want to clear be i understand what you believe.

[Kathianne]

You had said conform and I suspected you meant to say condemned. Visit your other comment.

Now that you bring up the worship of idols and saints and such. I understand what you are talking about. I can't see that matters at all to God if it be true.

Though I am a non practicing LDS, it seems to me that this fighting your church or others is not productive.

I don't really understand your point here, other than to be involved. I am not finding the 'conform' issue you lead off with, but perhaps you can link up?

I didn't mention saints, that is you.

As for idols, I know what I meant, not sure you are speaking of the same.

Personally, I think all fighting between religions is wrong, but there are times that one stands up for one's own. I'm not 'fighting' with anyone, just said that I find those that preach hatred in greatest numbers, at least in the US, to be Protestants.

[Robert A Whit]

I don't really understand your point here, other than to be involved. I am not finding the 'conform' issue you lead off with, but perhaps you can link up?

I didn't mention saints, that is you.

As for idols, I know what I meant, not sure you are speaking of the same.

Personally, I think all fighting between religions is wrong, but there are times that one stands up for one's own. I'm not 'fighting' with anyone, just said that I find those that preach hatred in greatest numbers, at least in the US, to be Protestants.

Not worth your trouble to look up your own post. I believe you misspelled a word but let's not make a big deal of it. I won't. Me involved on a public forum? Perish the thought. I forgot this is an exclusive topic. You typed in conform but I believe all it was is a misspelling.

Yup, I am guilty as charged of saying saints. I had the idea some people allege that your church worships saints. I will ask a catholic who knows to try to explain it to me then. I heard of the worship of idols by your church is what I mean. Again, if wrong, some catholic that is willing can explain it to me.

I agree that the fighting is wrong. I don't know that this thing you said about protestants is true. I am sure some of that exists, but don't know just to what extent.

Frankly it is not the habit of the members of my church to do any of that.

Mom used to comment to me but seldom on the Catholics and idols and saints thing.

[Kathianne]

Not worth your trouble to look up your own post. I believe you misspelled a word but let's not make a big deal of it. I won't. Me involved on a public forum? Perish the thought. I forgot this is an exclusive topic. You typed in conform but I believe all it was is a misspelling. I did look through my own posts, not finding what you said. Could be the mind not doing well at self-editing, but considering your own mastery of English language, I'll figure you are dissembling, not me.


Yup, I am guilty as charged of saying saints. I had the idea some people allege that your church worships saints. I will ask a catholic who knows to try to explain it to me then. I heard of the worship of idols by your church is what I mean. Again, if wrong, some catholic that is willing can explain it to me. No worship of saints or idols. Intercession regarding saints, look that up. Idols? None, that is pure Protestant hatred.


I agree that the fighting is wrong. I don't know that this thing you said about protestants is true. I am sure some of that exists, but don't know just to what extent.

Frankly it is not the habit of the members of my church to do any of that.

Mom used to comment to me but seldom on the Catholics and idols and saints thing.

Ok.

[Abbey Marie]

I don't really understand your point here, other than to be involved. I am not finding the 'conform' issue you lead off with, but perhaps you can link up?

I didn't mention saints, that is you.

As for idols, I know what I meant, not sure you are speaking of the same.

Personally, I think all fighting between religions is wrong, but there are times that one stands up for one's own. I'm not 'fighting' with anyone, just said that I find those that preach hatred in greatest numbers, at least in the US, to be Protestants.

I have been to various Protestant churches, some feel Catholics are not saved, others don't, but none of them "preached hatred". Any church that does that is so far off the path, it's not funny.

[Kathianne]

I have been to various Protestant churches, some feel Catholics are not saved, others don't, but none of them "preached hatred". Any church that does that is so far off the path, it's not funny.

Agree with your conclusion. I'd also say that those preaching that 'Catholics are not saved' are assuming the mind of God. Enough said, that is heretical by definition.

[revelarts]

Agree with your conclusion. I'd also say that those preaching that 'Catholics are not saved' are assuming the mind of God. Enough said, that is heretical by definition.

No they are reading the Bible. Not trying devine the mind of God. sheesh.
i don't mind disagreeing but i'd appreciate it if you wouldn't misrepresent various protestant views kath. I'll try do you the same favor.

[Kathianne]

No they are reading the Bible. Not trying devine the mind of God. sheesh.
i don't mind disagreeing but i'd appreciate it if you wouldn't misrepresent various protestant views kath. I'll try do you the same favor.

I always find you respectful, always find the gist of your posts, (the long ones I tend to skim through), worth paying attention to. We fundamentally disagree with religion. I accept that and still respect you. My religion would never condemn one so obviously concerned for others to hell, as if it could! I don't for one nanosecond think you want anything than the best for anyone, by that definition you are not hateful, though what you've been inculcated with maybe. See, my religion says that God knows your heart.

[Robert A Whit]

I have been to various Protestant churches, some feel Catholics are not saved, others don't, but none of them "preached hatred". Any church that does that is so far off the path, it's not funny.


I have savored the flavor of a number of churches but the only time I was a bit upset is one non denominational christian church tried to claim my church is a cult. I let it slide.

I even liked the guy that taught the Bible. Felt he was very good.

I ask her a question over her post. I get snapped at. Told my writing sucks in her own words.

This is what SHE said.


Kathianne says:Nah, I've been observing Protestant posters doing the 'apostasy' calls, countless threads on 'evil' priests and stupid, condoning Catholics. As I said, 'actions, not words.' Their eye, their logs. I just find them hateful, that's all. I don't think they'll change, just glad I know enough non-hateful to not condemn all. I actually am amused to some degree, that they feel they represent the best of Christ.

She said she could not find condoning. There it is for her own use. Was she calling Catholics stupid?

I did not assume she called them stupid. I was thinking she missed a beat and was still beating down protestants.

You are welcome Kathianne for my work to find your post.

Attention posters.

Not all of us are as "ahem" eloquent as Kathianne is. Some of us did well to finish school. I graduated. But I admit that English writing and grammar were not my favorite subjects. Science and math was.

[Kathianne]

You had said conform and I suspected you meant to say condemned. Visit your other comment.

Now that you bring up the worship of idols and saints and such. I understand what you are talking about. I can't see that matters at all to God if it be true.

Though I am a non practicing LDS, it seems to me that this fighting your church or others is not productive.


I ask her a question over her post. I get snapped at. Told my writing sucks in her own words.

This is what SHE said.



She said she could not find condoning. There it is for her own use. Was she calling Catholics stupid?

I did not assume she called them stupid. I was thinking she missed a beat and was still beating down protestants.

You are welcome Kathianne for my work to find your post.

Attention posters.

Not all of us are as "ahem" eloquent as Kathianne is. Some of us did well to finish school. I graduated. But I admit that English writing and grammar were not my favorite subjects. Science and math was.

No, I couldn't find 'conforming,' your word.

[Robert A Whit]

No, I couldn't find 'conforming,' your word.

Fine. I messed up and meant to say condone.

[Kathianne]

I ask her a question over her post. I get snapped at. Told my writing sucks in her own words.

This is what SHE said.



She said she could not find condoning. There it is for her own use. Was she calling Catholics stupid?

I did not assume she called them stupid. I was thinking she missed a beat and was still beating down protestants.

You are welcome Kathianne for my work to find your post.

Attention posters.

Not all of us are as "ahem" eloquent as Kathianne is. Some of us did well to finish school. I graduated. But I admit that English writing and grammar were not my favorite subjects. Science and math was.

The word you had me looking for was 'conforming', your post #27.

[revelarts]

I always find you respectful, always find the gist of your posts, (the long ones I tend to skim through), worth paying attention to. We fundamentally disagree with religion. I accept that and still respect you. My religion would never condemn one so obviously concerned for others to hell, as if it could! I don't for one nanosecond think you want anything than the best for anyone, by that definition you are not hateful, though what you've been inculcated with maybe. See, my religion says that God knows your heart.

thanks Kath , I appreciate it. most of it anwho

However i think you might misunderstand protestants almost as much as you think they misunderstand Catholics.

I've been inclucated with the idea that those that believe in Jesus will be saved. Jesus said it. protestants understand this to be foundational and without exception. It's not divining the mind of God , God in the flesh said it. We simple old protestants believe it. Even in the face of modern "education".
I've gone to a lot of different Protestant Churches and heard a lot of preaching and lectures. and I've never heard anyone say that All Catholics are automatically bound for hell. Maybe some idiot church member, but not any of the hardest of the hard core protestants teachers I've heard. What they have said is this. 'That Yes , I'm sure their will be Catholics in heaven . many wonderful Catholics believe in Jesus with all their hearts. After the early church in the M.E. the roman church was the only church. Then they add, BUT the Roman Catholic system that rose up into middle ages however became corrupt when it come to it's teachings most importantly on salvation.'
It may not sound much better to you but it's not saying what you said, that "protestants thinks all Catholics are going to hell." that BS Kath. I'm truly sorry you ran into goofballs that gave you that impression but it's not true. Frankly you might not be surprised to hear that many pastors questions whether people in there own Churches really believe in Jesus Christ and often beg them to make sure of their faith. They don't claim to know but they do wonder? so don't feel to presecuted.

If you know your Church history and the reformation you know the split was mainly over Works vs Grace.
the protestants believe that the Bible teaches that all you need is to trust in the Grace of God PLUS NOTHING to get into heaven. Where as the Roman Catholics IN THE PAST AT LEAST and some now tended to teach that it was trust in the Grace of God plus the sacraments, baptism in THE church and GOOD WORKS.

Many protestants understand from their reading of scripture that those and other additions can possibly block the grace of God. So it's best not to encourage people in a path where the grace of God is obsurcured and may be missed. As people look to their own works, the sacraments etc instead of Jesus alone. Of Course some Roman Catholic scholars disagree.


But protestants also believe that only God knows the heart but the same book that TELLS US ALL THAT ALSO says that people must believe in Jesus to be saved and those that do not will be damned. Jesus said it not me or some mean ol hating protestants. I always thought that most Catholics believed that too.

You seem to think i and other protestants hate people because i occasionally repeat those words of Jesus, hopefully in the same spirit as he.
But i ask you , you say it's wrongs and hateful and heretical and uneducated .
ok fine that's your opinion.
I simply read that Jesus said 'Go and preach warning people of the wraith to come.'
Please help me understand why should i believe you and your outrage instead of Jesus commands?

I think we'll just have to disagree and hopefully laugh it off in heaven.

[Kathianne]

thanks Kath , I appreciate it. most of it anwho

However i think you might misunderstand protestants almost as much as you think they misunderstand Catholics.

I've been inclucated with the idea that those that believe in Jesus will be saved. Jesus said it. protestants understand this to be foundational and without exception. It's not divining the mind of God , God in the flesh said it. We simple old protestants believe it. Even in the face of modern "education".
I've gone to a lot of different Protestant Churches and heard a lot of preaching and lectures. and I've never heard anyone say that All Catholics are automatically bound for hell. Maybe some idiot church member, but not any of the hardest of the hard core protestants teachers I've heard. What they have said is this. 'That Yes , I'm sure their will be Catholics in heaven . many wonderful Catholics believe in Jesus with all their hearts. After the early church in the M.E. the roman church was the only church. Then they add, BUT the Roman Catholic system that rose up into middle ages however became corrupt when it come to it's teachings most importantly on salvation.'
It may not sound much better to you but it's not saying what you said, that "protestants thinks all Catholics are going to hell." that BS Kath. I'm truly sorry you ran into goofballs that gave you that impression but it's not true. Frankly you might not be surprised to hear that many pastors questions whether people in there own Churches really believe in Jesus Christ and often beg them to make sure of their faith. They don't claim to know but they do wonder? so don't feel to presecuted.

If you know your Church history and the reformation you know the split was mainly over Works vs Grace.
the protestants believe that the Bible teaches that all you need is to trust in the Grace of God PLUS NOTHING to get into heaven. Where as the Roman Catholics IN THE PAST AT LEAST and some now tended to teach that it was trust in the Grace of God plus the sacraments, baptism in THE church and GOOD WORKS.

Many protestants understand from their reading of scripture that those and other additions can possibly block the grace of God. So it's best not to encourage people in a path where the grace of God is obsurcured and may be missed. As people look to their own works, the sacraments etc instead of Jesus alone. Of Course some Roman Catholic scholars disagree.


But protestants also believe that only God knows the heart but the same book that TELLS US ALL THAT ALSO says that people must believe in Jesus to be saved and those that do not will be damned. Jesus said it not me or some mean ol hating protestants. I always thought that most Catholics believed that too.

You seem to think i and other protestants hate people because i occasionally repeat those words of Jesus, hopefully in the same spirit as he.
But i ask you , you say it's wrongs and hateful and heretical and uneducated .
ok fine that's your opinion.
I simply read that Jesus said 'Go and preach warning people of the wraith to come.'
Please help me understand why should i believe you and your outrage instead of Jesus commands?

I think we'll just have to disagree and hopefully laugh it off in heaven.

I read seriously, until the end of bolded. I never made such a claim.

As for the Reformation and the fallout, yes, I'm a bit aware of it. ;) Reading with less seriousness, after the false claim towards my posts of 'all Protestants', I'll repeat what I said earlier, 'You are attempting to fulfill your mission as you see it, that that mission is premised on something that is perhaps wrong, is yours to divine, not mine.

[revelarts]

I read seriously, until the end of bolded. I never made such a claim.

As for the Reformation and the fallout, yes, I'm a bit aware of it. ;) Reading with less seriousness, after the false claim towards my posts of 'all Protestants', I'll repeat what I said earlier, 'You are attempting to fulfill your mission as you see it, that that mission is premised on something that is perhaps wrong, is yours to divine, not mine.

Ok well I got that impression after your post.
i won't quote but post #1, 13,17,19,23,26, and 33.
kinda left me with the impression that you thought that the protestant churches -in general- inculcated people with the idea that all Catholics go to Hell if they are not part of the right protestant sect and they worships idols other things. At the least you certainly don't seem to like what they teach. heretical is what i think you said.

but Ok, God bless ya real good Kathianne goodnight

[Kathianne]

Ok well I got that impression after your post.
i won't quote but post #1, 13,17,19,23,26, and 33.
kinda left me with the impression that you thought that the protestant churches -in general- inculcated people with the idea that all Catholics go to Hell if they are not part of the right protestant sect and they worships idols other things. At the least you certainly don't seem to like what they teach. heretical is what i think you said.

but Ok, God bless ya real good Kathianne goodnight

What I was posting, in all of those was the hate from Protestants, exhibited here and elsewhere on forums. Not all Protestants, certainly, some avoid the religious every bit as I usually do. However, there comes a point where one cannot remain silent, if one is honest. Hit that today, thanks to those that joined in on a Gabby thread, no concern that they were parroting hatred. They didn't necessarily see it that way, it's what they'd been taught.

I wish you a good night also, Rev.

[Robert A Whit]

All I have said is that I don't hate Catholics and don't believe I have talked that way ever.

I have no idea who has talked down Catholics. Maybe she means Mundame. I dunno. Mundame has trashed my church and more than one time.

[Kathianne]

All I have said is that I don't hate Catholics and don't believe I have talked that way ever.

I have no idea who has talked down Catholics. Maybe she means Mundame. I dunno. Mundame has trashed my church and more than one time.

Robbie, it's not about you, never was. I've nothing against Mormons. Actually nothing against Protestants, Wiccans, Muslims, atheists, etc.

Had nothing to do with Mundame or anyone/anything other than what I made clear. That you failed to understand English? I'm sorry.

[Robert A Whit]

Robbie, it's not about you, never was. I've nothing against Mormons. Actually nothing against Protestants, Wiccans, Muslims, atheists, etc.

Had nothing to do with Mundame or anyone/anything other than what I made clear. That you failed to understand English? I'm sorry.


I am sick of your attitude.

[Kathianne]

I am sick of your attitude.

Color me, surprised! Not. BTW, do you think I'm affected by your feelings towards me? Please, get over yourself. You'll do yourself and the board a favor.

[Kathianne]

while winding down, getting ready to go to bed, found this. I can't hope to be as effective as this child or his parents prime candidates of setting an example, but it's what I was driving at regarding 'living your life' as an example and being ready to address those wanting to know more:

http://washingtonexaminer.com/tim-carney-an-awful-loss-a-beautiful-life-a-daunting-task/article/2522421


Tim Carney: An awful loss, a beautiful life, a daunting task February 24, 2013 | 8:00 pm

Nothing can prepare you for seeing your one-year-old nephew in a casket. Nothing can take away his parents' agony. And nobody could have expected how much good work this helpless baby would do in 14 months.


John Paul Kilner was born with an advanced case of spinal muscular atrophy. Nearly paralyzed at birth, his body deteriorated further as he grew.


My sister-in-law Elena and her husband Pat brought JP home as soon as possible, and began the 24-hour a day job of keeping him alive. Someone was always at JP's side, monitoring blood-oxygen levels, suctioning mucus through his tracheostomy tube.


If Elena's younger sister Suzanne (now a nurse) or a hired nurse named Donnisse weren't on duty, either Pat or Elena did without sleep.


Daily saving the life of an immobile kid with a fatal disease raises some fundamental questions. What is the point of such a life? Which raises the prior question: What is the purpose of any life?
<!-- email widget -->
<!-- /email widget --> Pat and Elena are devout Catholics from strong families, but their answer to this question can't be set aside as some teaching in the Catechism. It's a truth written on the human heart.


Jesus said that the two greatest commandments are to love God and love your neighbor. This is our purpose. This view is not uniquely Christian. It's understood in other religions and in secular worldviews.


In this regard, John Paul lived a superior life. He exuded love. Before he lost control of his facial muscles, he beamed smiles that made grown men sob. Babies can love those around him with the pure, unconditional love we all should show.


Also, JP drew love from others. Neighbors, relatives and strangers cooked meals and gave time, equipment and money to help the Kilners. JP's brothers and sister showered him with affection. And Pat and Elena sacrificed immensely to care for him.


Before the wake at St. Patrick's in Rockville, during an observance called Stations of the Cross, we read a Gospel passage in which Christ explains our duty to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and visit the sick.


"Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine," the Lord says in this passage, "you did for me."

Clearly a call to charity, this is also an exaltation of parenthood. Even moreso, this exalts the work of caring for helpless JP.

Tribulations both reveal character and form it. JP's struggles revealed his parents' heroic virtue and fostered virtue in others.
Pat and Elena saw John Paul as a blessing, and they generously shared that blessing with the world. They took him wherever they could, in a chair rigged with a ventilator and an IV. Elena shared wider, by penning hopeful, contemplative letters to John Paul every few weeks, which she posted on a blog.


One friend of mine, who never met the Kilners, read the "Letters to John Paul" blog. She wrote me, "John Paul's story made me want to be a better person."


John Paul continued shaping souls even in dying. A priest at St. Patrick's took confessions during and after the wake. He commented afterwards that he heard some of the more honest, searching and contrite confessions he's ever heard.

...

[Kat]

hmmm Having grown up in a Protestant Church, I have to say I never heard any anti-Catholic preachings. Racism either. Never even close. And Billy Graham would not even preach in a segregated crowd. He insisted on all races. So, I am a wee confused here. But, maybe I am misunderstanding. :)

[Kathianne]

hmmm Having grown up in a Protestant Church, I have to say I never heard any anti-Catholic preachings. Racism either. Never even close. And Billy Graham would not even preach in a segregated crowd. He insisted on all races. So, I am a wee confused here. But, maybe I am misunderstanding. :)

I don't doubt anything you've heard. You are misinformed on Billy Graham though, regarding 40's-60's. All laid out in Wiki and multiple other sources.

[Robert A Whit]

Color me, surprised! Not. BTW, do you think I'm affected by your feelings towards me? Please, get over yourself. You'll do yourself and the board a favor.

You are naturally abusive. You do not speak for the board. Matter of fact, you barely speak for yourself.

[Kat]

I don't doubt anything you've heard. You are misinformed on Billy Graham though, regarding 40's-60's. All laid out in Wiki and multiple other sources.


I heard Billy Graham say it himself. And my parents told me that when he came to my home town, he was going to refuse to come if it was segregated. Promise.
And honestly I don't trust Wiki on everything b/c anyone can edit it.


You are naturally abusive. You do not speak for the board. Matter of fact, you barely speak for yourself.



Huh? Kathianne is anything but abusive...and I have no dog in this fight...:)

[Anton Chigurh]

You are naturally abusive. You do not speak for the board. Matter of fact, you barely speak for yourself.You're naturally a whiner and a victim. Kathianne isn't abusive at all.

[Kathianne]

You are naturally abusive. You do not speak for the board. Matter of fact, you barely speak for yourself.

No Robbie, I'm not. You bring it out in me. Call it a personality clash, but your 'stories' and 'all your years' not only bore me, I find them annoying. I can skim over most things that I find annoying, but when they come up over 10 times a day, I react.

Truth to tell, if you were more judicious in sharing, they'd be profitable. Those I've managed to catch, I've given both rep and thanks for, more graciously than you claim in reverse.

You want kudos for existing, not happening.


I heard Billy Graham say it himself. And my parents told me that when he came to my home town, he was going to refuse to come if it was segregated. Promise.
And honestly I don't trust Wiki on everything b/c anyone can edit it.

Kat, I've no doubt to what you're recounting, I believe it. If you go back in thread, you'll see where he made a decision regarding racism, tore down some separations regarding segregation of those who came to listen to him, I believe I recounted that. That was after his 'change of heart.' Same with Catholics, he changed. I also said such. The criticism was from earlier years.

[Anton Chigurh]

I heard Billy Graham say it himself. And my parents told me that when he came to my home town, he was going to refuse to come if it was segregated. Promise.
And honestly I don't trust Wiki on everything b/c anyone can edit it.Bad edits don't stand though. They are removed.

[Robert A Whit]

No Robbie, I'm not. You bring it out in me. Call it a personality clash, but your 'stories' and 'all your years' not only bore me, I find them annoying. I can skim over most things that I find annoying, but when they come up over 10 times a day, I react.

Truth to tell, if you were more judicious in sharing, they'd be profitable. Those I've managed to catch, I've given both rep and thanks for, more graciously than you claim in reverse.

You want kudos for existing, not happening.

Who the hell is this Robbie?

Actually yes, you have been pretty abusive to me a lot of times. Even above you put out more.

As to thanking you, you keep me on the hot seat, always complaining.

Hell, were it up to me, i would give it a pass, move forward and forget what you have done to me.

But when I offer that, you refuse. Why not start over?

No more insults to me and so forth. I was counseled to just keep talking nice to yo9u for a matter of weeks to see if you quit the sarcastic way of talking to me.

Robbie for instance, I never said that is my name.

[darin]

Kath - give me a few words to describe the character "Scrooge", if you will. Just go with this...

[Kathianne]

Kath - give me a few words to describe the character "Scrooge", if you will. Just go with this...

I don't go on expeditions, without knowing where. I respect your right to your beliefs, just want to be able to read without having mine attacked, especially in titles. You've known me how many years now? I've just gotten tired of the attacks on Catholics in general over these many years. Gabby's title was inflammatory, couldn't help but read through. That many otherwise decent people find it 'truth' and/or amusing to slam away, then become all agitated when they get the same back? Not my problem. I avoid religion section usually, always have. I do get offended when drawn by titles and find so much ignorance, selfishness, and ill will.

[darin]

I don't go on expeditions, without knowing where. I respect your right to your beliefs, just want to be able to read without having mine attacked, especially in titles. You've known me how many years now? I've just gotten tired of the attacks on Catholics in general over these many years. Gabby's title was inflammatory, couldn't help but read through. That many otherwise decent people find it 'truth' and/or amusing to slam away, then become all agitated when they get the same back? Not my problem. I avoid religion section usually, always have. I do get offended when drawn by titles and find so much ignorance, selfishness, and ill will.

Wow. Look, I'm not asking for your hand in marriage - I'm asking you to describe the character of Scrooge.

Since you are too scared to play, here's what I think you'd say - what MOST people say:

"Bitter, Miserly, Cold, Mean" etc.

Those are all wrong.

Scrooge, the character, was FULL of love, Hope, Cheer, Happiness and kept Christmas like no other man.

That's why whatever you are claiming about Billy Graham is irrelevant.

Only prideful people can be offended. Pride is the antithesis of love.

[Kathianne]

Wow. Look, I'm not asking for your hand in marriage - I'm asking you to describe the character of Scrooge.

Since you are too scared to play, here's what I think you'd say - what MOST people say:

"Bitter, Miserly, Cold, Mean" etc.

Those are all wrong.

Scrooge, the character, was FULL of love, Hope, Cheer, Happiness and kept Christmas like no other man.

That's why whatever you are claiming about Billy Graham is irrelevant.

Only prideful people can be offended. Pride is the antithesis of love.

Ignorance is the basis of prejudice. As stated regarding Billy Graham, he started out with many prejudices, including antisemitism, racism, anti-Catholic. As he grew as a minister and person, his views changed. Slowly to be sure, but from all accounts true change. I believe anyone is capable of such growth, at whatever age. First though, got to get the log out of their eye.

[taft2012]

I can recall about 20 years ago or so, my Catholic church telling us it was OK to go to an upcoming Bill Graham crusade or watch it on television, that Graham had a good message, and that nothing in his message contradicted church doctrine.

I'm sure that came after a long period of disagreement.

The irony to me is; the main knock the fundamentalists have against Catholics is that the don't understand how Catholic rules change when God's laws are eternal and unchanging. Yet, in a span of 30 to 40 years Billy Graham allowed Catholics into heaven, and most recently Mormons. :laugh: So what is so eternal and unchanging about Christian fundamentalism?

My knock against the Protestants is the churches who send their "missionaries" to Catholic countries like Haiti and the Philippines. The Catholic church did the hard work in countries like these centuries ago, converting the populations to Christianity. These left-footed Johnny-come-latelies (i.e., Tim Tebow) merely want to convert people from Catholicism to their brand of Protestantism.

If you truly want to be a missionary, then you ought to go to countries that are not already Christian and do some legitimate missionary work.... and not disrespect and undermine the work of GENUINE missionaries who have gone before you.

[mundame]

I simply read that Jesus said 'Go and preach warning people of the wraith to come.'


The wraith to come......I'm wondering which wraith is that? I'm hoping it's one of the Four Horsemen.

[darin]

Catholic Church has a few traditions that are completely at odds with scripture; and most of what I see, in their tradition, is at odds with the picture of Christ painted by the gospels.

But - because God is a LOT bigger than what we have in the bible, it really doesn't matter. Sure, it's possible the Pope does NOT go to heaven when he dies - because "Many will come to the Father and say "Lord - did we not DO all these Things in your name? God will say "Depart from me, into everlasting torment".

Not my call.

Nobody's relative 'salvation' is my call. More people should give less of a shit about a denomination or sect of ANY and every religion and focus first on loving others as themselves, and loving God above all. Because, apart from those two aspects, everyone's acts, deeds; their very faith is in vain.

[mundame]

Ok well I got that impression after your post.
i won't quote but post #1, 13,17,19,23,26, and 33.
kinda left me with the impression that you thought that the protestant churches -in general- inculcated people with the idea that all Catholics go to Hell if they are not part of the right protestant sect and they worships idols other things. At the least you certainly don't seem to like what they teach. heretical is what i think you said.




I don't see that it matters.

Why does it matter if some Protestants think Catholics will go to hell, or whether Catholics think Protestants will go to hell? They do believe that, as a rule: it's a matter of doctrine, if you aren't doing the right stuff with the right faith, you'll go to hell.

But why should it matter? Hell is God's business, not man's. What someone believes will happen after death doesn't matter. All that actually matters is whether they try to kill or burn at the stake or otherwise discriminate people while they are alive, right?

It's like saints: who cares if someone believes in saints? That too is God's business, whatever the Catholic Church wants to announce about sainthood. They can't control God or whatever goes on after death, so a belief like that simply doesn't matter.

[tailfins]

I don't see that it matters.

Why does it matter if some Protestants think Catholics will go to hell, or whether Catholics think Protestants will go to hell? They do believe that, as a rule: it's a matter of doctrine, if you aren't doing the right stuff with the right faith, you'll go to hell.

But why should it matter? Hell is God's business, not man's. What someone believes will happen after death doesn't matter. All that actually matters is whether they try to kill or burn at the stake or otherwise discriminate people while they are alive, right?

It's like saints: who cares if someone believes in saints? That too is God's business, whatever the Catholic Church wants to announce about sainthood. They can't control God or whatever goes on after death, so a belief like that simply doesn't matter.

Productive people, regardless how fundamentalist they are at least to some extent reach this conclusion. For example, you're not going to defeat Senator Jeanne Shaheen without Catholic help.

[Kathianne]

Now seeing a few people at least agreeing that one's faith is between the person and God. While I don't agree with dmp's position regarding his interpretation, I haven't a problem with his believing whatever. Same with anyone, just ask the same in return. Are Catholics without sin? Heck no, as all the 'scandals' illustrate that individuals often fail in big and small ways.

However, if some wish to continue to target Catholics in general, the Church as a whole for the sins of the individuals, then it's certainly easy enough to find very, very bad Protestants and paint all with the same brush.

BTW, I've never heard in over half a century anything in Church or Catholic schools that mentions in any way Protestants or any Christian being barred from salvation. There has been 'only through acceptance of Christ can one enter,' but I've always figured that God might have some further input on that.

[darin]

However, if some wish to continue to target Catholics in general, the Church as a whole for the sins of the individuals, then it's certainly easy enough to find very, very bad Protestants and paint all with the same brush.



...but Christians would NEVER...EVER do that. Would be absolutely impossible for somebody who truly loves God. If somebody gets butt-hurt about insults to their faith, and that somebody follows Christ, they would never respond-in-kind. They'd NEVER seek, then, only to ridicule large groups of people in an effort to show that group's sin, too.

[Abbey Marie]

I don't see that it matters.

Why does it matter if some Protestants think Catholics will go to hell, or whether Catholics think Protestants will go to hell? They do believe that, as a rule: it's a matter of doctrine, if you aren't doing the right stuff with the right faith, you'll go to hell.

But why should it matter? Hell is God's business, not man's. What someone believes will happen after death doesn't matter. All that actually matters is whether they try to kill or burn at the stake or otherwise discriminate people while they are alive, right?

It's like saints: who cares if someone believes in saints? That too is God's business, whatever the Catholic Church wants to announce about sainthood. They can't control God or whatever goes on after death, so a belief like that simply doesn't matter.

Well, most simply put:
Mark 16:15
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

[Kathianne]

...but Christians would NEVER...EVER do that. Would be absolutely impossible for somebody who truly loves God. If somebody gets butt-hurt about insults to their faith, and that somebody follows Christ, they would never respond-in-kind. They'd NEVER seek, then, only to ridicule large groups of people in an effort to show that group's sin, too.

Funny how that works with people, do unto others. As I said, Protestants as a whole, no better or worse; individuals? Yeah, same wrongs and no, one doesn't just have to take it.

My responding back to haters won't change them, I know that. Haters, hate. I don't hate in return, they are free to go on with their messages, I don't have to not respond, which I believe is your message.

[mundame]

Well, most simply put:
Mark 16:15
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.


As long as they don't knock on people's doors and try to force people to listen to them or punish people who don't listen to them, I don't see why it should matter. Let them preach away, in fields or on the air waves, or whatever, just as long as it's purely voluntary to listen.

It's only force, intrusiveness, and violence that are a problem. Oh, and preaching in public spaces being unconstitutional, of course.

[cadet]

As long as they don't knock on people's doors and try to force people to listen to them or punish people who don't listen to them, I don't see why it should matter. Let them preach away, in fields or on the air waves, or whatever, just as long as it's purely voluntary to listen.

It's only force, intrusiveness, and violence that are a problem. Oh, and preaching in public spaces being unconstitutional, of course.

Since when having a soap box unconstitutional? Freedom of speech is freedom of speech.
It's only an issue if you have a captive audience. Like in a school setting.

[mundame]

Since when having a soap box unconstitutional? Freedom of speech is freedom of speech.
It's only an issue if you have a captive audience. Like in a school setting.


You're right. Yours was a better way of saying that.

[Abbey Marie]

As long as they don't knock on people's doors and try to force people to listen to them or punish people who don't listen to them, I don't see why it should matter. Let them preach away, in fields or on the air waves, or whatever, just as long as it's purely voluntary to listen.

It's only force, intrusiveness, and violence that are a problem. Oh, and preaching in public spaces being unconstitutional, of course.

I really don't get why you are so vehement about someone knocking on your door. Just say no thanks. They aren't going to force their way into your home and tie you up while they preach.

What exactly about this message of the love of God upsets you so? And if the message isn't ultimately about that, then you must dismiss the speaker.

[tailfins]

I really don't get why you are so vehement about someone knocking on your door. Just say no thanks. They aren't going to force their way into your home and tie you up while they preach.

What exactly about this message of the love of God upsets you so? And if the message isn't ultimately about that, then you dismiss the speaker.

It depends on who's knocking on the door. If it's some Betty-better-than-you, even if from the same denomination as me, then I don't want that person knocking on my door. If someone like Jafar knocked with a plate of genuine Middle Eastern Quibe, I would invite him in. Of course one can acknowledge the contributions of another religion, without accepting that religion's theology.

http://www.comofazer.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Como-Fazer-Quibe.jpg

[Abbey Marie]

Sorry, but those look like cat-box contents.

[tailfins]

Sorry, but those look like cat-box contents.

Quibe is really good; Brazil adopted it from the Arabs. You wouldn't make a very good missionary. My father-in-law was served rotisserie monkey when witnessing to a Tupi tribe. The Tupi get REALLY offended if you turn their nose up at their food.

http://www.kitbrasil.com/pelemele/tupi2.jpg

[mundame]

I really don't get why you are so vehement about someone knocking on your door. Just say no thanks. They aren't going to force their way into your home and tie you up while they preach.

What exactly about this message of the love of God upsets you so? And if the message isn't ultimately about that, then you dismiss the speaker.



Good question --- I feel the same way about the hard-sell salesmen in BJs as about the door-to-door missionaries. So what is the common denominator?

It's that they are predators and they see me as their prey. And I verrrrrrrrrry much don't want to be anybody's prey.

They want to get my money or get my belief to reinforce their own or to beef up the poor membership of their church or take over the world --- they want something illegitimate. They want it for THEMSELVES, not for me, and so they intrusively approach me and try to get it out of me. Like con men do.

It's just wrong. It's immoral to treat people as prey.

The model I approve of is where people put their wares out on display, at a store or church or a website, and advertise for people who are interested to come on in and see if they'd like some of this stuff they are selling. So BJs has lots of little stands where people in hair nets have free samples to promote some brand or other, and they don't harass anyone, but you can try if you like. They have an intermediate moral position where a guy gets on a loudspeaker and promotes a "free giveaway" of something, a kitchen knife, I think, just assemble at the deli counter. But actually, that's a con, because they get people there and then keep calling for more people for half an hour! So you're waiting there all that time. I did wait about ten minutes once and then left and never fell for that con again. They don't harass people, but they do trick us, so that's wrong.

Then the last and worst is the hard-sell home improvement guys who literally stalk customers through the dark, empty aisles, but they don't do that to me twice........

And the worst of all is when they actually come to a person's HOME and do that predator stuff, that is really intrusive prey-seeking behavior. It's just wrong.

You know I'm hardly the only one who feels this way! Lots of people put up signs to keep the religious types away from their homes, lots of people get angry about it. Intrusion just isn't good. They want to get at us for their own sakes, for some bad reason. Just like the people in BJs who want your money. Very possibly it's for the same money reason: they want a bigger congregation and thus more "offerings."

Anyway, I don't care to be prey for anyone, and quite a lot of people feel like I do.

[Abbey Marie]

Mundame, I cannot convince you that for many of us, spreading the gospel is a work of love, and a commission straight from God's word, when you see it as a self-interested horror show. We'll have to leave it at that.

[tailfins]

Good question --- I feel the same way about the hard-sell salesmen in BJs as about the door-to-door missionaries. So what is the common denominator?

It's that they are predators and they see me as their prey. And I verrrrrrrrrry much don't want to be anybody's prey.

They want to get my money or get my belief to reinforce their own or to beef up the poor membership of their church or take over the world --- they want something illegitimate. They want it for THEMSELVES, not for me, and so they intrusively approach me and try to get it out of me. Like con men do.

It's just wrong. It's immoral to treat people as prey.

The model I approve of is where people put their wares out on display, at a store or church or a website, and advertise for people who are interested to come on in and see if they'd like some of this stuff they are selling. So BJs has lots of little stands where people in hair nets have free samples to promote some brand or other, and they don't harass anyone, but you can try if you like. They have an intermediate moral position where a guy gets on a loudspeaker and promotes a "free giveaway" of something, a kitchen knife, I think, just assemble at the deli counter. But actually, that's a con, because they get people there and then keep calling for more people for half an hour! So you're waiting there all that time. I did wait about ten minutes once and then left and never fell for that con again. They don't harass people, but they do trick us, so that's wrong.

Then the last and worst is the hard-sell home improvement guys who literally stalk customers through the dark, empty aisles, but they don't do that to me twice........

And the worst of all is when they actually come to a person's HOME and do that predator stuff, that is really intrusive prey-seeking behavior. It's just wrong.

You know I'm hardly the only one who feels this way! Lots of people put up signs to keep the religious types away from their homes, lots of people get angry about it. Intrusion just isn't good. They want to get at us for their own sakes, for some bad reason. Just like the people in BJs who want your money. Very possibly it's for the same money reason: they want a bigger congregation and thus more "offerings."

Anyway, I don't care to be prey for anyone, and quite a lot of people feel like I do.

1) I hope you don't take it out on the minimum wage drone working at BJs.
2) Dwindling membership has nothing to do with it. It's a lifestyle, kind of like staying physically fit. Think of it as staying spiritually fit. I wish I had my father-in-law's discipline to make any sacrifice necessary to witness. When temporarily assigned here in the US he gets call after call to visit someone in jail. He often gets a 2 AM call about someone being arrested. I'm not sure, but I think he also does jail visits in Brazil. He is responsible for having planted numerous churches along the tributaries of the Amazon River. My father-in-law is a gifted man. Besides his native Portuguese, he speaks Spanish and a couple of indigenous languages.

[mundame]

Mundame, I cannot convince you that for many of us, spreading the gospel is a work of love, and a commission straight from God's word, when you see it as a self-interested horror show. We'll have to leave it at that.

Lots of people feel as I do; that's why they have the "no trespassing" signs and the frowns. MOST people don't like it: I know that's true because if they did like it, there would be a lot more welcomes and a lot less rejection and people complaining about it to each other. Trying to convert people door-to-door is hard, because most people do not want to be converted. Most people who answer the door reject the missionary, right? They say they aren't interested and close the door.

Perhaps religious types should restrict their approaches to the homes of people who put up affirmative signs: "Missionaries Welcome." That would be fair and appropriate.

[Abbey Marie]

Lots of people feel as I do; that's why they have the "no trespassing" signs and the frowns. MOST people don't like it: I know that's true because if they did like it, there would be a lot more welcomes and a lot less rejection and people complaining about it to each other. Trying to convert people door-to-door is hard, because most people do not want to be converted. Most people who answer the door reject the missionary, right? They say they aren't interested and close the door.

Perhaps religious types should restrict their approaches to the homes of people who put up affirmative signs: "Missionaries Welcome." That would be fair and appropriate.

Jesus never said it would be easy.

http://thecripplegate.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/oh-no.jpg

[tailfins]

Lots of people feel as I do; that's why they have the "no trespassing" signs and the frowns. MOST people don't like it: I know that's true because if they did like it, there would be a lot more welcomes and a lot less rejection and people complaining about it to each other. Trying to convert people door-to-door is hard, because most people do not want to be converted. Most people who answer the door reject the missionary, right? They say they aren't interested and close the door.

Perhaps religious types should restrict their approaches to the homes of people who put up affirmative signs: "Missionaries Welcome." That would be fair and appropriate.


Oh come on! Your sarcasm is reaching the point of being abusive. That being said, it seems door-to-door evangelism is a kind of self-punishment for the evangelist. Jails, nursing homes and homeless shelters are more effective mission venues. Inmates of these kinds of facilities are happy to get a pastoral visit.

[Robert A Whit]

I believe that the hospital had some clergy come to visit me. I sure did not ask and the clergy did not come from my church since they had no idea I was in the hospital.

[tailfins]

I believe that the hospital had some clergy come to visit me. I sure did not ask and the clergy did not come from my church since they had no idea I was in the hospital.

They can't know who doesn't have family to visit unless they ask.

[Kathianne]

Mundame, I cannot convince you that for many of us, spreading the gospel is a work of love, and a commission straight from God's word, when you see it as a self-interested horror show. We'll have to leave it at that.

I've mentioned that I live in the city known for having more churches per capita than anywhere else in US. There's not a weekend day that doesn't have a least one person or group knocking on my door. That doesn't offend me. I listen for a moment, do not accept their literature and thank them. If they keep going, I slowly close the door. I've never had a problem and yes, I understand they believe they are carrying God's word to the people. I respect that.

[Robert A Whit]

I've mentioned that I live in the city known for having more churches per capita than anywhere else in US. There's not a weekend day that doesn't have a least one person or group knocking on my door. That doesn't offend me. I listen for a moment, do not accept their literature and thank them. If they keep going, I slowly close the door. I've never had a problem and yes, I understand they believe they are carrying God's word to the people. I respect that.

Very, very well said. Indeed, right on the mark.

[tailfins]

I've mentioned that I live in the city known for having more churches per capita than anywhere else in US. There's not a weekend day that doesn't have a least one person or group knocking on my door. That doesn't offend me. I listen for a moment, do not accept their literature and thank them. If they keep going, I slowly close the door. I've never had a problem and yes, I understand they believe they are carrying God's word to the people. I respect that.

I wonder what would happen if they gave out swag? Would you use a Jehovah's Witness mini-flashlight or pen?

[Kathianne]

I wonder what would happen if they gave out swag? Would you use a Jehovah's Witness mini-flashlight or pen?

Not a thing. I keep my hand on the door and say, "Thank you, I don't want any."

[jafar00]

If the priests are preaching hate, it explains a lot why their flock are hating on Islam or anything else they don't agree with.

[avatar4321]

Ive seen good and bad in all faiths. Some simply misguided in doing bad things. Some are evil people.

That's why i think it's important to be converted to the message, not the messenger.

[Noir]

The protestant church get away with an awful lot of bile, the main reason being (that i can see anyway) is because they're 'not as bad as the Catholics'. Prod Pedophile scandals ect seem to be more individual than institutionalised, and without the monopoly on the african and south american populous, the Prod churches will never have the same level of scandal regarding STD/STI spread etc.

However, that aside, the hatred and division preached by the holy ministers in the prod church is without parallel in 'the west' in my view. You'd have to look east for anything more divisive and stomach churning. None hate gods creations quite so much as some of those who believe in him.