Who Knew?

[Kathianne]

The person that formulated the Big Bang Theory was a Jesuit priest?

http://www.amnh.org/education/resources/rfl/web/essaybooks/cosmic/p_lemaitre.html


According to the Big Bang theory, the expansion of the observable universe began with the explosion of a single particle at a definite point in time. This startling idea first appeared in scientific form in 1931, in a paper by Georges Lemaître, a Belgian cosmologist and Catholic priest. The theory, accepted by nearly all astronomers today, was a radical departure from scientific orthodoxy in the 1930s. Many astronomers at the time were still uncomfortable with the idea that the universe is expanding. That the entire observable universe of galaxies began with a bang seemed preposterous.


Lemaître was born in 1894 in Charleroi, Belgium. As a young man he was attracted to both science and theology, but World War I interrupted his studies (he served as an artillery officer and witnessed the first poison gas attack in history). After the war, Lemaître studied theoretical physics, and in 1923 was ordained as an abbé. The following year, he pursued his scientific studies with the distinguished English astronomer Arthur Eddington, who regarded him as “a very brilliant student, wonderfully quick and clear-sighted, and of great mathematical ability.” Lemaître then went on to America, where he visited most of the major centers of astronomical research. Later, he received his Ph.D. in physics from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.


In 1925, at age 31, Lemaître accepted a professorship at the Catholic University of Louvain, near Brussels, a position he retained through World War II (when he was injured in the accidental bombing of his home by U.S. forces). He was a devoted teacher who enjoyed the company of students, but he preferred to work alone. Lemaître’s religious interests remained as important to him as science throughout his life, and he served as President of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences from 1960 until his death in 1966.


In 1927, Lemaître published in Belgium a virtually unnoticed paper that provided a compelling solution to the equations of General Relativity for the case of an expanding universe. His solution had, in fact, already been derived without his knowledge by the Russian Alexander Friedmann in 1922. But Friedmann was principally interested in the mathematics of a range of idealized solutions (including expanding and contracting universes) and did not pursue the possibility that one of them might actually describe the physical universe. In contrast, Lemaître attacked the problem of cosmology from a thoroughly physical point of view, and realized that his solution predicted the expansion of the real universe of galaxies that observations were only then beginning to suggest.


By 1930, other cosmologists, including Eddington, Willem de Sitter, and Einstein, had concluded that the static (non-evolving) models of the universe they had worked on for many years were unsatisfactory. Furthermore, Edwin Hubble, using the world’s largest telescope at Mt. Wilson in California, had shown that the distant galaxies all appeared to be receding from us at speeds proportional to their distances. It was at this point that Lemaître drew Eddington’s attention to his earlier work, in which he had derived and explained the relation between the distance and the recession velocity of galaxies. Eddington at once called the attention of other cosmologists to Lemaître’s 1927 paper and arranged for the publication of an English translation. Together with Hubble’s observations, Lemaître’s paper convinced the majority of astronomers that the universe was indeed expanding, and this revolutionized the study of cosmology.


A year later, Lemaître explored the logical consequences of an expanding universe and boldly proposed that it must have originated at a finite point in time. If the universe is expanding, he reasoned, it was smaller in the past, and extrapolation back in time should lead to an epoch when all the matter in the universe was packed together in an extremely dense state. Appealing to the new quantum theory of matter, Lemaître argued that the physical universe was initially a single particle—the “primeval atom” as he called it—which disintegrated in an explosion, giving rise to space and time and the expansion of the universe that continues to this day. This idea marked the birth of what we now know as Big Bang cosmology.


It is tempting to think that Lemaître’s deeply-held religious beliefs might have led him to the notion of a beginning of time. After all, the Judeo-Christian tradition had propagated a similar idea for millennia. Yet Lemaître clearly insisted that there was neither a connection nor a conflict between his religion and his science. Rather he kept them entirely separate, treating them as different, parallel interpretations of the world, both of which he believed with personal conviction. Indeed, when Pope Pius XII referred to the new theory of the origin of the universe as a scientific validation of the Catholic faith, Lemaître was rather alarmed. Delicately, for that was his way, he tried to separate the two:


“As far as I can see, such a theory remains entirely outside any metaphysical or religious question. It leaves the materialist free to deny any transcendental Being… For the believer, it removes any attempt at familiarity with God… It is consonant with Isaiah speaking of the hidden God, hidden even in the beginning of the universe.”
In the latter part of his life, Lemaître turned his attention to other areas of astronomical research, including pioneering work in electronic computation for astrophysical problems. His idea that the universe had an explosive birth was developed much further by other cosmologists, including George Gamow, to become the modern Big Bang theory. While contemporary views of the early universe differ in many respects from Lemaître’s “primordial atom,“ his work had nevertheless opened the way. Shortly before his death, Lemaître learned that Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson had discovered the cosmic microwave background radiation, the first and still most important observational evidence in support of the Big Bang.



Yes, the Catholic Church treated Galileo less than mercifully, but moreso to 'protect' the less educated from losing faith, than in disagreement with him. Truth is, the Church scholars didn't really find fault with his helio-centric theory, they wanted time to bring the theory forward. Truly a catastrophe, but with some ability to understand time and history, understandable.

Catholicism and evolution and theology:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05654a.htm

[Robert A Whit]

According to the Big Bang theory, the expansion of the observable universe began with the explosion of a single particle at a definite point in time. This startling idea first appeared in scientific form in 1931, in a paper by Georges Lemaître, a Belgian cosmologist and Catholic priest. The theory, accepted by nearly all astronomers today, was a radical departure from scientific orthodoxy in the 1930s. Many astronomers at the time were still uncomfortable with the idea that the universe is expanding. That the entire observable universe of galaxies began with a bang seemed preposterous.


Lemaître was born in 1894 in Charleroi, Belgium. As a young man he was attracted to both science and theology, but World War I interrupted his studies (he served as an artillery officer and witnessed the first poison gas attack in history). After the war, Lemaître studied theoretical physics, and in 1923 was ordained as an abbé. The following year, he pursued his scientific studies with the distinguished English astronomer Arthur Eddington, who regarded him as “a very brilliant student, wonderfully quick and clear-sighted, and of great mathematical ability.” Lemaître then went on to America, where he visited most of the major centers of astronomical research. Later, he received his Ph.D. in physics from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.


In 1925, at age 31, Lemaître accepted a professorship at the Catholic University of Louvain, near Brussels, a position he retained through World War II (when he was injured in the accidental bombing of his home by U.S. forces). He was a devoted teacher who enjoyed the company of students, but he preferred to work alone. Lemaître’s religious interests remained as important to him as science throughout his life, and he served as President of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences from 1960 until his death in 1966.


In 1927, Lemaître published in Belgium a virtually unnoticed paper that provided a compelling solution to the equations of General Relativity for the case of an expanding universe. His solution had, in fact, already been derived without his knowledge by the Russian Alexander Friedmann in 1922. But Friedmann was principally interested in the mathematics of a range of idealized solutions (including expanding and contracting universes) and did not pursue the possibility that one of them might actually describe the physical universe. In contrast, Lemaître attacked the problem of cosmology from a thoroughly physical point of view, and realized that his solution predicted the expansion of the real universe of galaxies that observations were only then beginning to suggest.


By 1930, other cosmologists, including Eddington, Willem de Sitter, and Einstein, had concluded that the static (non-evolving) models of the universe they had worked on for many years were unsatisfactory. Furthermore, Edwin Hubble, using the world’s largest telescope at Mt. Wilson in California, had shown that the distant galaxies all appeared to be receding from us at speeds proportional to their distances. It was at this point that Lemaître drew Eddington’s attention to his earlier work, in which he had derived and explained the relation between the distance and the recession velocity of galaxies. Eddington at once called the attention of other cosmologists to Lemaître’s 1927 paper and arranged for the publication of an English translation. Together with Hubble’s observations, Lemaître’s paper convinced the majority of astronomers that the universe was indeed expanding, and this revolutionized the study of cosmology.


A year later, Lemaître explored the logical consequences of an expanding universe and boldly proposed that it must have originated at a finite point in time. If the universe is expanding, he reasoned, it was smaller in the past, and extrapolation back in time should lead to an epoch when all the matter in the universe was packed together in an extremely dense state. Appealing to the new quantum theory of matter, Lemaître argued that the physical universe was initially a single particle—the “primeval atom” as he called it—which disintegrated in an explosion, giving rise to space and time and the expansion of the universe that continues to this day. This idea marked the birth of what we now know as Big Bang cosmology.


It is tempting to think that Lemaître’s deeply-held religious beliefs might have led him to the notion of a beginning of time. After all, the Judeo-Christian tradition had propagated a similar idea for millennia. Yet Lemaître clearly insisted that there was neither a connection nor a conflict between his religion and his science. Rather he kept them entirely separate, treating them as different, parallel interpretations of the world, both of which he believed with personal conviction. Indeed, when Pope Pius XII referred to the new theory of the origin of the universe as a scientific validation of the Catholic faith, Lemaître was rather alarmed. Delicately, for that was his way, he tried to separate the two:


“As far as I can see, such a theory remains entirely outside any metaphysical or religious question. It leaves the materialist free to deny any transcendental Being… For the believer, it removes any attempt at familiarity with God… It is consonant with Isaiah speaking of the hidden God, hidden even in the beginning of the universe.”
In the latter part of his life, Lemaître turned his attention to other areas of astronomical research, including pioneering work in electronic computation for astrophysical problems. His idea that the universe had an explosive birth was developed much further by other cosmologists, including George Gamow, to become the modern Big Bang theory. While contemporary views of the early universe differ in many respects from Lemaître’s “primordial atom,“ his work had nevertheless opened the way. Shortly before his death, Lemaître learned that Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson had discovered the cosmic microwave background radiation, the first and still most important observational evidence in support of the Big Bang.

I am one that believes the Big Bang theory validates GOD since to pull off the Big Bang, awesome power is needed. Power that previously had not been used to create still being created universe.

The recent studies show the universe is expanding. Gravity ought to either keep it from expanding or preventing it from speeding up.

It is speeding up.

But it also shows how a Christian can and does advance science.

[Noir]

The person that formulated the Big Bang Theory was a Jesuit priest?

http://www.amnh.org/education/resources/rfl/web/essaybooks/cosmic/p_lemaitre.html

Yes, the Catholic Church treated Galileo less than mercifully, but moreso to 'protect' the less educated from losing faith, than in disagreement with him. Truth is, the Church scholars didn't really find fault with his helio-centric theory, they wanted time to bring the theory forward. Truly a catastrophe, but with some ability to understand time and history, understandable.

Catholicism and evolution and theology:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05654a.htm

The Catholic church were more than merciful of Galileo. While ultimately he should of been treated how he was treated - he more or less only had himself to blame for how things went.

I also memo Hitchens talking about when the Church was being made aware of Big Bang theory, and the then Pope contacted the scientist in question, and said that they could have it preached from the pulpit as Dogma...to which the scientist, being a scientist, politely declined.

[avatar4321]

didnt know but im not surprised.

[PostmodernProphet]

the Big Bang sounded like "Let there be" in Hebrew......

[cadet]

Religion; The universe was nothiing, then some magic guy came in and created it all how he wanted to.

Atheism; at first there was nothing, then that nothing exploded into something, and that something happened to be in a random 3D universe, and then the something randomly split off to form planets, and then the magic nothing that's now something turned into life on a random planet that just happened to be life supporting.

If you want an example of the math involved of the chances of ANY of this happening, it's closer to... .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 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00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 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00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 01%

Maybe less.

So like Robert, the mere fact that we exist is proof enough for me that there is a God.

[fj1200]

The question:

SCIENCE REFUTES GOD (http://intelligencesquaredus.org/debates/upcoming-debates/item/728-science-refutes-god)

The debate:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1VTMs7PSIM4

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Religion; The universe was nothiing, then some magic guy came in and created it all how he wanted to.

Atheism; at first there was nothing, then that nothing exploded into something, and that something happened to be in a random 3D universe, and then the something randomly split off to form planets, and then the magic nothing that's now something turned into life on a random planet that just happened to be life supporting.

If you want an example of the math involved of the chances of ANY of this happening, it's closer to... .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 01%

Maybe less.

So like Robert, the mere fact that we exist is proof enough for me that there is a God.

You should have added a few more rolls of zeroes. --:beer:--Tyr

[Marcus Aurelius]

Who knew???

This guy knew.
http://global3.memecdn.com/Dr-Sheldon-Cooper-For-The-Win_o_98850.gif

[revelarts]

the big bang has been the dominant theory for while now. And you know it was initially rejected by some scientist becuase of it's theological implications.
But at this point some weird things are happening in the science of cosmology. i wouldn't be surprised , if not in the not to distance future, if the big bang and some of the dark mater dark energy science isn't set aside. or at least vigorously questioned.

Those fairly recent revisions to current theories are becuase the math physics uses to predicts events necessitated the postulation of dark mater and energy. it's not because anyone experimentally found any of either --both of which we are told make up over 90% of the universe-- but we can't see it or other wise confirm it. Some scientist think the emperor has no clothes. And a series of failed predictions concerning the Sun, and the what the probe that is now just beyond the edge of our solar system, is finding. and some second looks at what Eisenstein wrote has some scientist knocking the idea of the big bang itself. And by extension they may end blaming the RCChurch for the idea. If the theory does falls.

What i'm talking about may be fringe theory right now, but it seems to me that we MIGHT be at the edge of another paradigm shift in science.
A lot of what the current theory looks like now is similar to the old Ptolemaic system. Because you know it did work... pretty much. you could track the movements of planets with it. and the problems with it had been adjusted and adjusted so that it did fit with what was experimentally seen in the sky.
It seems that cosmology is doing the same now, they keep adding layers ands layers of math and dark this and dark that to compensate for problems in the theory that experimental observation keeps bringing up.
The universe is moving faster as it expands ... it seems... this was not predicted so what do they do? Say the theory was wrong? welll Noooo. they postulate new energies. and factor that into the theories math and presto chango the overall theory is still good.

I'm no scientist or mathematician i've just been reading various skeptics from various sides on some of these ideas and IMO, it seems reasonable to question some of the current cosmological dogmas. And it's not all Christian fundamentalist skeptics. Atheist scientist have doubts and alternate theories, new age scientist have doubts and some christian scientist have doubt. The problems they each bring up concerning the current dominant idea are real and, at the very least, give me the impression that just about everyone claims a bit more knowledge than the current evidence can affirm.

Long and short of it is this the universe is still a gi-huge-ic mystery from a purely scientific POV, all due respect to scientist of all stripes.

[PostmodernProphet]

The question:

SCIENCE REFUTES GOD (http://intelligencesquaredus.org/debates/upcoming-debates/item/728-science-refutes-god)

The debate:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1VTMs7PSIM4

the first speaker contradicted himself in his first point.....he argues that one cannot say that the universe is finely tuned to support life because only a tiny portion of it supports life.......what on earth does "finely tuned" mean if not "only a tiny portion"......how fortunate for us that the tiny portion happens to be precisely where we are.......

[Kathianne]

the big bang has been the dominant theory for while now. And you know it was initially rejected by some scientist becuase of it's theological implications.
But at this point some weird things are happening in the science of cosmology. i wouldn't be surprised , if not in the not to distance future, if the big bang and some of the dark mater dark energy science isn't set aside. or at least vigorously questioned.

Those fairly recent revisions to current theories are becuase the math physics uses to predicts events necessitated the postulation of dark mater and energy. it's not because anyone experimentally found any of either --both of which we are told make up over 90% of the universe-- but we can't see it or other wise confirm it. Some scientist think the emperor has no clothes. And a series of failed predictions concerning the Sun, and the what the probe that is now just beyond the edge of our solar system, is finding. and some second looks at what Eisenstein wrote has some scientist knocking the idea of the big bang itself. And by extension they may end blaming the RCChurch for the idea. If the theory does falls.

What i'm talking about may be fringe theory right now, but it seems to me that we MIGHT be at the edge of another paradigm shift in science.
A lot of what the current theory looks like now is similar to the old Ptolemaic system. Because you know it did work... pretty much. you could track the movements of planets with it. and the problems with it had been adjusted and adjusted so that it did fit with what was experimentally seen in the sky.
It seems that cosmology is doing the same now, they keep adding layers ands layers of math and dark this and dark that to compensate for problems in the theory that experimental observation keeps bringing up.
The universe is moving faster as it expands ... it seems... this was not predicted so what do they do? Say the theory was wrong? welll Noooo. they postulate new energies. and factor that into the theories math and presto chango the overall theory is still good.

I'm no scientist or mathematician i've just been reading various skeptics from various sides on some of these ideas and IMO, it seems reasonable to question some of the current cosmological dogmas. And it's not all Christian fundamentalist skeptics. Atheist scientist have doubts and alternate theories, new age scientist have doubts and some christian scientist have doubt. The problems they each bring up concerning the current dominant idea are real and, at the very least, give me the impression that just about everyone claims a bit more knowledge than the current evidence can affirm.

Long and short of it is this the universe is still a gi-huge-ic mystery from a purely scientific POV, all due respect to scientist of all stripes.

Without a doubt, Big Bang Theory could be disproven. Being disproven wouldn't reflect on RCC or on scientists, it's the nature of the scientific method. Same with evolution.

As I stated in the OP title, I'm just more comfortable with a religion that is open to science. I don't have a problem with the earth being older than 6k years. I don't have a problem with acknowledging an all knowing creator that may have gone about it a tad differently than portrayed in Genesis, it's the fact that all is His creation that I believe.

I know Rev that you are not a hater in any sense of the word. I do find it interesting though that many that are literalists and wholly believe in Genesis, find it ok to derogatorily call others, "Mud People." Again, I know you wouldn't.

[Kathianne]

MA hinted at this:


http://youtu.be/Ml0FqyFYfrU

A longer version, with more bona fides:


http://youtu.be/de1mAqczZzU

[revelarts]

Without a doubt, Big Bang Theory could be disproven. Being disproven wouldn't reflect on RCC or on scientists, it's the nature of the scientific method. Same with evolution.

As I stated in the OP title, I'm just more comfortable with a religion that is open to science. I don't have a problem with the earth being older than 6k years. I don't have a problem with acknowledging an all knowing creator that may have gone about it a tad differently than portrayed in Genesis, it's the fact that all is His creation that I believe.
that's your take, OK... a lot of folks agree with you.



I know Rev that you are not a hater in any sense of the word. I do find it interesting though that many that are literalists and wholly believe in Genesis, find it ok to derogatorily call others, "Mud People." Again, I know you wouldn't.
Sadly the same can be said Republicans v Democrats. You general find more republicans ready to to express racist comments.
But if you look at the history of evolutionary biology it's racist from it's inception. Darwin book 'Origin of Species' full title is
"On the Origin of Species by means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life."

And in some of his writings he gauges where races are in evolutionary terms. In one the Irish people, and there profligate ways, offhandedly shows they're at the bottom of the evolutionary scale in Europe according to Darwin and his colleagues. Their only argument was whether or not the Irish would be able to multiple more than their betters, the Anglo Saxons and Scots.

And evolutionist still promote similar that type of things, even Dr. F. Crick of DNA fame did it.
Not to mention that Evolution was part of the reasoning for eugenics work in the U.S., to get rid of the less fit. Hitler picked it up from the U.S. and mixed in his own crazy juices and put the Jews and others on the evolutionarily inferior list away from the blond haired blue eyed Aryans like himself.

In the 1st part of the 20th century Evolutionist, sure of their scientific ideas, took some black men and put him a zoo's for as examples of a earlier stages of evolution. link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ota_Benga).

Frankly much of evolutionary theory is no friend to minorities, the sick, the weak or ideas of equality.

[Kathianne]

that's your take, OK... a lot of folks agree with you.


Sadly the same can be said Republicans v Democrats. You general find more republicans ready to to express racist comments.
But if you look at the history of evolutionary biology it's racist from it's inception. Darwin book 'Origin of Species' full title is
"On the Origin of Species by means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life."

And in some of his writings he gauges where races are in evolutionary terms. In one the Irish people, and there profligate ways, offhandedly shows they're at the bottom of the evolutionary scale in Europe according to Darwin and his colleagues. Their only argument was whether or not the Irish would be able to multiple more than their betters, the Anglo Saxons and Scots.

And evolutionist still promote similar that type of things, even Dr. F. Crick of DNA fame did it.
Not to mention that Evolution was part of the reasoning for eugenics work in the U.S., to get rid of the less fit. Hitler picked it up from the U.S. and mixed in his own crazy juices and put the Jews and others on the evolutionarily inferior list away from the blond haired blue eyed Aryans like himself.

In the 1st part of the 20th century Evolutionist, sure of their scientific ideas, took some black men and put him a zoo's for as examples of a earlier stages of evolution link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ota_Benga).

Frankly much of evolutionary theory is no friend to minorities or the sick or ideas of equality.

I wouldn't argue any of what you are saying regarding Crick or other evolutionists. That however doesn't mean that they've proven anything, a theory off a theory so to speak. There's no doubt that Darwin wasn't 100% correct, many have pointed out the flaws. So the testing of theories goes on. That's a good thing.

As for Republicans being more racist? Can't agree with you. Wasn't true during the Civil War, wasn't true in 50's and 60's, isn't true today.

[Robert A Whit]

that's your take, OK... a lot of folks agree with you.


Sadly the same can be said Republicans v Democrats. You general find more republicans ready to to express racist comments.
But if you look at the history of evolutionary biology it's racist from it's inception. Darwin book 'Origin of Species' full title is
"On the Origin of Species by means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life."

And in some of his writings he gauges where races are in evolutionary terms. In one the Irish people, and there profligate ways, offhandedly shows they're at the bottom of the evolutionary scale in Europe according to Darwin and his colleagues. Their only argument was whether or not the Irish would be able to multiple more than their betters, the Anglo Saxons and Scots.

And evolutionist still promote similar that type of things, even Dr. F. Crick of DNA fame did it.
Not to mention that Evolution was part of the reasoning for eugenics work in the U.S., to get rid of the less fit. Hitler picked it up from the U.S. and mixed in his own crazy juices and put the Jews and others on the evolutionarily inferior list away from the blond haired blue eyed Aryans like himself.

In the 1st part of the 20th century Evolutionist, sure of their scientific ideas, took some black men and put him a zoo's for as examples of a earlier stages of evolution. link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ota_Benga).

Frankly much of evolutionary theory is no friend to minorities, the sick, the weak or ideas of equality.

I notice on this forum, and others I have posted on, only one group gets called racists and they are speaking of only race they think is being denigrated.

Funny how that works.

[aboutime]

I wouldn't argue any of what you are saying regarding Crick or other evolutionists. That however doesn't mean that they've proven anything, a theory off a theory so to speak. There's no doubt that Darwin wasn't 100% correct, many have pointed out the flaws. So the testing of theories goes on. That's a good thing.

As for Republicans being more racist? Can't agree with you. Wasn't true during the Civil War, wasn't true in 50's and 60's, isn't true today.


Kathianne. Agreed. What liberals always seem to rely upon whenever Race, Racists, or Racism comes up is...They instantly identify Republicans as racists in order to CEASE all discussions about race...in any form. And if we persist in attempting to discuss it in a civil manner. They..the Liberals, depend on calling us Racists again to STIFLE and END all discussions they DO NOT WANT, because they fear being exposed as the CLOSET racists we all know them to be.

[revelarts]

I wouldn't argue any of what you are saying regarding Crick or other evolutionists. That however doesn't mean that they've proven anything, a theory off a theory so to speak. There's no doubt that Darwin wasn't 100% correct, many have pointed out the flaws. So the testing of theories goes on. That's a good thing.

As for Republicans being more racist? Can't agree with you. Wasn't true during the Civil War, wasn't true in 50's and 60's, isn't true today.

I didn't say more racist i said more ready to use racist comments. But frankly i wouldn't want want to defend either party on their histories but so far.

And I'll just ask you to look at many of the comments made on this Board over the years. compared to the comments of the hard core lefties that have been here.

[Kathianne]

Kathianne. Agreed. What liberals always seem to rely upon whenever Race, Racists, or Racism comes up is...They instantly identify Republicans as racists in order to CEASE all discussions about race...in any form. And if we persist in attempting to discuss it in a civil manner. They..the Liberals, depend on calling us Racists again to STIFLE and END all discussions they DO NOT WANT, because they fear being exposed as the CLOSET racists we all know them to be.

Yet, I'm guessing you will agree with me that Rev. isn't liberal, nor a racist?

[revelarts]

I notice on this forum, and others I have posted on, only one group gets called racists and they are speaking of only race they think is being denigrated.

Funny how that works.

You mean the Irish?