Judge orders morning-after pill available without prescription [Archive] - Debate Policy

jimnyc

04-05-2013, 01:08 PM

So now it's DISCRIMINATION to not give easy abortion access to those under 17?

(CNN) -- A federal judge in Brooklyn, New York, has ordered the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to make the morning-after birth control pill available to people of any age without a prescription.

The order overturned a 2011 decision by Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius to require a prescription for girls under 17.

The FDA said it couldn't comment because it is an ongoing legal matter.

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists recommended last year that oral contraceptives be sold over the counter in an effort to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies in the United States. Opponents of prescription requirements say prescriptions can delay access to the drug.

In 2011, Teva Women's Health Inc., maker of Plan B One-Step, had asked the FDA to make the drug available without prescription to all sexually active girls and women. Sebelius overruled the FDA's recommendation, saying, "I do not believe enough data were presented to support the application."

On Friday, U.S. District Court Judge Edward Korman said, "The decisions of the Secretary with respect to Plan B One-Step and that of the FDA with respect to the Citizen Petition, which it had no choice but to deny, were arbitrary, capricious, and unreasonable."

Friday's order came in response to a lawsuit launched by the Center for Reproductive Rights. The group was seeking to expand access to all brands of the morning-after pill over the counter, such as Plan B One-Step and Next Choice, so that women of all ages would be able to purchase them without a prescription.

"Today science has finally prevailed over politics," Nancy Northup, the center's president and CEO, said in a statement. "This landmark court decision has struck a huge blow to the deep-seated discrimination that has for too long denied women access to a full range of safe and effective birth control methods."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/05/health/morning-after-pill/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

fj1200

04-05-2013, 01:12 PM

So now it's DISCRIMINATION to not give easy abortion access to those under 17?

Today science has finally prevailed over politics," Nancy Northup, the center's president and CEO, said in a statement. "This landmark court decision has struck a huge blow to the deep-seated discrimination that has for too long denied women access to a full range of safe and effective birth control methods."
http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/05/health/morning-after-pill/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

I'm sure she'll be right on the lawsuit bandwagon when someone uses the drugs and something goes horribly wrong... beyond it's intended use of course.

jimnyc

04-05-2013, 01:19 PM

I'm sure she'll be right on the lawsuit bandwagon when someone uses the drugs and something goes horribly wrong... beyond it's intended use of course.

Imagine finding out your 13-16yr old girl has been sleeping around, partly because she knows she can pop a pill and avoid "consequences". If a 13-16yr old girl is not old enough to form a contract, not old enough to drive, not old enough to drink... She sure isn't old enough to deal with whether or not to end a life. This is where parents come in and help their children. No one should be helping kids with birth control issues other than their parents.

aboutime

04-05-2013, 01:23 PM

Just one more step toward the cesspool of ignorance in America.

logroller

04-05-2013, 03:05 PM

So now it's DISCRIMINATION to not give easy abortion access to those under 17?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/05/health/morning-after-pill/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
There is no evidence that plan b (aka the morning after pill) prevents implantation of a fertilized embyro. Its not an abortion, its a contraceptive. Big difference, wouldn't you say?

Syrenn

04-05-2013, 03:16 PM

Imagine finding out your 13-16yr old girl has been sleeping around, partly because she knows she can pop a pill and avoid "consequences". If a 13-16yr old girl is not old enough to form a contract, not old enough to drive, not old enough to drink... She sure isn't old enough to deal with whether or not to end a life. This is where parents come in and help their children. No one should be helping kids with birth control issues other than their parents.

Did you talk sex with your parents when you were 13 years old? Mom..dad, can i have some condoms? I sure as hell was not going to discuss sex with my mother, let alone tell her i was taking the pill. I asked her one day why didn't she ever talk sex with me when i was a teen.... her answer was that she thought they taught us about it in school.

If parents have no inkling of what their children are up to, what makes you think they will fess up when something bad happens if they can deal with the problem themselves?

jimnyc

04-05-2013, 03:21 PM

There is no evidence that plan b (aka the morning after pill) prevents implantation of a fertilized embyro. Its not an abortion, its a contraceptive. Big difference, wouldn't you say?

Firstly, you're correct, I think my blood pressure went up and I posted in a reactionary manner.

And while a big difference, it's still insane to be giving things like this out to kids. They are not of legal age and under PARENTS care, not planned parenthood!

jimnyc

04-05-2013, 03:22 PM

Did you talk sex with your parents when you were 13 years old? Mom..dad, can i have some condoms? I sure as hell was not going to discuss sex with my mother, let alone tell her i was taking the pill. I asked her one day why didn't she ever talk sex with me when i was a teen.... her answer was that she thought they taught us about it in school.

If parents have no inkling of what their children are up to, what makes you think they will fess up when something bad happens if they can deal with the problem themselves?

So we pawn off responsibilities regarding our kids sex lives to schools and planned parenthood?

jimnyc

04-05-2013, 03:58 PM

This whole site is worth looking at, but this section in particular. It's from a Catholic source, I acknowledge that up front, but that doesn't mean this is wrong...

http://www.morningafterpill.org/how-does-it-work.html

How Does it Work?
The emergency contraceptive/morning-after pill has three modes of action (as does the regular birth control pill); that is, it can work in one of three ways:

The normal menstrual cycle is altered, delaying ovulation; or
Ovulation is inhibited, meaning the egg will not be released from the ovary;
It can irritate the lining of the uterus (endometrium) so as to inhibit implantation.

Keep in mind that fertilization (the union of female ovum, or egg, and male sperm) occurs in the fallopian tube and that fertilization marks the beginning of a new human life - and the beginning of the pregnancy. The newly created child then travels down the fallopian tube to the uterus (womb) where he or she implants. Implantation is necessary for the new child to receive nourishment from the mother and continue developing. The journey from the fallopian tube to the womb takes between five and seven days during which pregnancy cannot be readily detected.
Therefore, if a woman ingests emergency contraception after fertilization has taken place, the third mode of action can occur. The lining of the uterus can be altered causing the woman's body to reject the living human embryo, making implantation impossible and the child will die. This result is called a chemical abortion; therefore emergency contraception is an abortifacient.
So, the only real "emergency" in all of this is the woman's fear of being pregnant.
Two of the most commonly used emergency contraceptive pills are Preven and Plan B. The websites for both of these drugs clearly indicate that each can work to prevent a "fertilized egg" (which is actually a newly formed human being) from implanting in the uterine wall:

How do the PREVEN® emergency contraceptive pills prevent pregnancy?
PREVEN® can stop or delay ovulation (the release of an egg), it can stop sperm from fertilizing an egg if it was already released, and it can stop a fertilized egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus."
Source: http://www.drugs.com/mtm/preven-ec.html
How Does Plan B® Work?
Plan B® (levonorgestrel) may prevent pregnancy by temporarily stopping the release of an egg from a woman's ovary, or it may prevent fertilization. It may also prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus. "
Source: http://www.planbonestep.com/faqs.aspx Proponents of "emergency contraception," as well as the Preven and Plan B websites, contend that emergency contraception does not cause abortion. They argue that emergency contraception prevents pregnancy and thereby reduces the need for induced abortion. However, they intentionally define the term "pregnancy" as implantation of a fertilized egg in the lining of a woman's uterus, as opposed to "pregnancy" beginning at fertilization.
Whether one understands pregnancy as beginning at "implantation" or "fertilization," the heart of the matter is when human life begins. It is important to keep in mind that scientists have confirmed that at the moment the sperm and the egg join (fertilization), a new human being is created who is completely different from his/her mother.
This is not a subjective opinion, but an objective scientific fact. Accordingly, any artificial action that works to destroy a fertilized egg (human embryo) is abortifacient in nature.
See http://www.all.org/article.php?id=10325 and http://www.all.org/article.php?id=10125
Check out this video that explains how the pill is abortifacient (i.e., how it can kill your preborn baby without you even knowing): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiCU46_lWeE
The common description of the MAP as emergency "contraception" fails to accurately describe its possible abortifacient action and is misleading the public. The confusion is aggravated by attempts to re-define pregnancy as occurring after implantation. Potential users of MAP are not told that this drug may abort an established pregnancy. This is not informed consent.
Some basic facts about ovulation and the possibility of becoming pregnant:

A woman ovulates approximately once every 28 days. Therefore the chance that a woman will ovulate on any randomly selected day is 3.57 percent.
When a woman ovulates, the egg is able to be fertilized for 12-24 hours (1 day).
When sperm enters the woman's body, it remains alive and able to fertilize an egg for 1-5 days.
It takes emergency contraception from 12-24 hours to be effective (1 day).
Emergency contraception remains effective for at least 10 days.
It takes a fertilized egg 5-7 days after ovulation to implant in the woman's womb.

In 78% of all cases, taking emergency contraception is unnecessary because the woman could not have conceived a child (meaning she was not fertile to begin with).
Thus, emergency contraception only has an effect 22 percent of the time.
Of those 22 percent, the mode of action in which the emergency contraception works depends on when the woman takes it:

Emergency contraception taken within 24 hours, will act 43 percent of the time by preventing implantation (thus killing the newly created child)
Emergency contraception taken between 24 and 48 hours will act 57 percent of the time by preventing implantation (thus killing the newly created child)
Emergency contraception taken between 48 and 72 hours will act 71 percent of the time by preventing implantation (thus killing the newly created child)
See http://www.all.org/article.php?id=10150.
Experts confirm abortifacient potential of morning-after pill
The most recent scientific study on Levonorgestrel, the essential component of the "morning-after pill" or "emergency contraceptive," confirms that the drug does indeed have a third effect on users, which consists in preventing the implantation of a fertilized ovum in the womb of the mother.
The promoters of the drug in Latin America, where most countries have laws against abortion, have argued that the there is no scientific basis for the "third effect," and that therefore the drug should be legalized. Dr. Horacio Croxatto, professor at the Chilean Institute of Reproductive Medicine, said in 2006 that the morning-after pill "is not abortifacient because it only prevents pregnancy by stopping ovulation."
Nevertheless, the most recent study (2007) by Doctors Mikolajczyk and Stanford of the Department of Medicine in Public Health of the University of Bielefeld (Germany) clearly indicates that the pill's "real effect" includes mechanisms that prevent implantation.

jimnyc

04-05-2013, 03:59 PM

Syrenn

04-05-2013, 05:20 PM

Syrenn

04-05-2013, 05:25 PM

So we pawn off responsibilities regarding our kids sex lives to schools and planned parenthood?

you may not, others hear may not..... but the vast majority do. I think having the sex talk is embarrassing for most parents...and if they think they can get out of it, they let it go thinking they will be taught in school.

If a 13 year old is asking for condoms.... they most likely think they need them. Thinking about using condoms is better then not thinking about condoms. If they are asking for them at school and not mom and dad.... that should tell you something right there.

same for the morning after pill for teen girls. If they had had a good relationship with thier parents...they would have asked to be put on the pill. I know what i was up to at that age.... i have no doubt girls today are the same... or worse.

jimnyc

04-05-2013, 05:27 PM

that's just it... it will no longer need a prescription or planned parenthood. You can pick it up at the drug store.

I don't think they should be able to do so. It's no different than selling a child the pill without a prescription. Its once again outside forces thinking they can parent better than parents and think they know what is best for our children. A kid is liable to think this IS just like the regular pill and start using it daily to prevent pregnancy. Their 'youth' and naivety could potentially screw up their bodies.

jimnyc

04-05-2013, 05:30 PM

you may not, others hear may not..... but the vast majority do. I think having the sex talk is embarrassing for most parents...and if they think they can get out of it, they let it go thinking they will be taught in school.

If a 13 year old is asking for condoms.... they most likely think they need them. Thinking about using condoms is better then not thinking about condoms. If they are asking for them at school and not mom and dad.... that should tell you something right there.

same for the morning after pill for teen girls. If they had had a good relationship with thier parents...they would have asked to be put on the pill. I know what i was up to at that age.... i have no doubt girls today are the same... or worse.

Embarassment, poor parenting or poor relationships should not equate to a lowering of standards for ALL kids and just throw caution to the wind and hope they'll be responsible. Poor parents and such shouldn't result in good parents having to deal with this stuff being too accessible for their children.

Syrenn

04-05-2013, 05:32 PM

And then read about the safety issues. Would you want your child under 17 taking something like this without you being involved in ensuring it's the proper course?

http://www.morningafterpill.org/is-emergency-contraception-saf.html

would you want your teen daughter pregnant or having an abortion?

The optional, in a perfect world situation is that the parents of a girl are understanding, non judgmental and supportive. They will take their daughter without comment (ever) in to their family doctor or drug store that day for the morning after pill.

IF a girl is seeking this on her own without her parents knowledge.... then she does not live in said perfect world.

do you think it is easy for a teen to talk to their parents about their sex lives? Do you think it would be easy for a girl to go to her parents and tell them she is pregnant or may be pregnant if she did not get the MAP?

Robert A Whit

04-05-2013, 05:33 PM

So we pawn off responsibilities regarding our kids sex lives to schools and planned parenthood?

I could understand the word kids and sex lives in ancient times. I can even understand it during the founders era.

Today, I simply can't link those words in the same sentence and have it make any sense at all.

Syrenn

04-05-2013, 05:34 PM

So we pawn off responsibilities regarding our kids sex lives to schools and planned parenthood?

again... did you talk to your parents about sex? Did you tell them before the first time you did it? Did you ask them for condoms?

or did you do it and keep it secret and not tell them you were no longer a virgin? Did you get your own condoms...or did you ask your parents for them before you did it?

jimnyc

04-05-2013, 05:36 PM

would you want your teen daughter pregnant or having an abortion?

I would want to be that teen daughters parent, from day one, and be responsible for her education on such matters, not schools, not planned parenthood, and not easily obtained medications that make them think sex without consequences is easy

The optional, in a perfect world situation is that the parents of a girl are understanding, non judgmental and supportive. They will take their daughter without comment (ever) in to their family doctor or drug store that day for the morning after pill.

IF a girl is seeking this on her own without her parents knowledge.... then she does not live in said perfect world.

do you think it is easy for a teen to talk to their parents about their sex lives? Do you think it would be easy for a girl to go to her parents and tell them she is pregnant or may be pregnant if she did not get the MAP?

We are supposed to teach kids to come to us parents if they need something or to talk. We further teach them to speak to aunts, uncles, counselors at schools and a myriad of other options. I don't think we should stand them at the doorway, and say "Well, we're showing this to you, in case you don't have good parents, here are tools in case you fuck up..."

jimnyc

04-05-2013, 05:38 PM

again... did you talk to your parents about sex? Did you tell them before the first time you did it? Did you ask them for condoms?

or did you do it and keep it secret and not tell them you were no longer a virgin? Did you get your own condoms...or did you ask your parents for them before you did it?

I had spoken to them and had responsibility explained to me. I knew all the risks, dangers and potential problems that can come out of sex, thanks to my parents.

Robert A Whit

04-05-2013, 05:41 PM

would you want your teen daughter pregnant or having an abortion?

The optional, in a perfect world situation is that the parents of a girl are understanding, non judgmental and supportive. They will take their daughter without comment (ever) in to their family doctor or drug store that day for the morning after pill.

IF a girl is seeking this on her own without her parents knowledge.... then she does not live in said perfect world.

do you think it is easy for a teen to talk to their parents about their sex lives? Do you think it would be easy for a girl to go to her parents and tell them she is pregnant or may be pregnant if she did not get the MAP?

Why do kids do anything wrong.

Poor parenting.

Trinity

04-05-2013, 06:11 PM

just my 2 cents....

I have a really great relationship with my teen boys 16 almost 17 and 14 and 1/2 however I was not one of those parents that shied away and changed the subject when the topic of sex came up....and it came up around the age of 7. We discussed everything about sex, age appropriate of course as they asked and believe me they asked, as of today my boys are very well educated in regards to that subject. Most parents including my own, don't talk to their kids about sex so anything they may learn comes from their friends and we all know how that is going to turn out. I'm living proof.

and with that being said my oldest son who has a ton of friends and I know most of them and talk to them regularly about life in general....they range in age from 14 to 18 and 98% of them are sexually active. Some of the girls are on birth control not because their parents know they are sexually active but because, just in case... however of the 50 or so friends of his that are on my facebook page that I know very well..... I am aware of 2, 15 year old's who are going to be giving birth in the next 2 months, 1, 17 year old who will be giving birth in about 3 months and many 14 to 16 year old's who have had abortions....not because the girl's wanted it but because the mom or dad forced her to...and believe me I have dealt with many of these girls crying on my shoulder because they were not allowed to choose and were forced into it.

My oldest son, has had sex previously on a few occasions, and has no problem with asking me to pick him up some condoms.

so my opinion is not the issue with whether or not these girls should be able to have access to the morning after pill, my issue is when will these parents step up and have honest conversations with their kids before it's to late.

Robert A Whit

04-05-2013, 06:32 PM

It is amazing how many parents who have kids figure that by not discussing sex, the kids won't mind and will simply learn sex on the streets or in the back of cars.

I maintain that to learn sex by doing, one ought to have the benefit of some expert not some runny nose boy or girl.

Why have sex so early? Not to get pregnant I presume. So what for? To run around?

When women who messed with so many boys gets married, and the men too, it is a tiny hair standing between them cheating all the time even when married. Their lesson learned as a teen is have plenty of sex. Go for it, it won't hurt you.

If kids are taught the way about sex as they are taught over property, they won't have sex.

Why not? They will see it as their parents want them to see stealing. Most parents i have met do not teach kids to steal even when stealing gives kids so much pleasure. Yet those parents far too often see no problem with the same immature person having sex. Trinity tells us that she knows kids who cry on her shoulder. Was that fun for the kids to do? Clearly they were hurting.

If the parents actually did believe in sacred marriage, they would teach that to the kids. But by acting like kids ought to have sex, the kids won't have good marriage values. Even if they attend church.

This is the voice of experience. I always wanted to date women who had high morals. Are there any left?

Even women complain. Where are the decent men?

logroller

04-05-2013, 06:53 PM

Do not inhibit implantation: Two studies have estimated effectiveness of LNG ECPs by confirming the cycle day by hormonal analysis (other studies used women’s self-reported cycle date). In these studies, no pregnancies occurred in the women who took ECPs before ovulation; while pregnancies occurred only in women who took ECPs on or after the day of ovulation, providing evidence that ECPs were unable to prevent implantation.9,10
A number of studies have evaluated whether ECPs produce changes in the histological and bio- chemical characteristics of the endometrium. Most studies show that LNG ECPs have no such effect on the endometrium, indicating that they have no mechanism to prevent implantation.1,2,11,12,13 One of these studies found that following administration of double the standard dose of LNG, there are only minor or no alterations in endometrial receptivity.12 One study found a single altered endometrial param- eter only when LNG was administered prior to the LH surge, at a time when ECPs inhibit ovulation.14
One study showed that levonorgestrel did not prevent the attachment of human embryos to a simulated (in vitro) endometrial environment.15
Animal studies demonstrated that LNG ECPs did not prevent implantation of the fertilized egg in the endometrium.16,17
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/health/contraception/ICEC_FIGO_MoA_Statement_March_2012.pdf

aboutime

04-05-2013, 07:37 PM

Robert A Whit

04-05-2013, 07:54 PM

Too many parents dismiss any thought that they are to work hard to prevent their own children from awful heart aches. Being pregnant is not my idea of a fun thing to do to a young girl even though some expect this and actually seem to not mind one bit. And to them, their son is some hero for tapping some young girl.
It's sick and sad. This nation keeps explaining all the time why things got this bad. They may not admit it, but they know it is true.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

04-05-2013, 08:10 PM

Imagine finding out your 13-16yr old girl has been sleeping around, partly because she knows she can pop a pill and avoid "consequences". If a 13-16yr old girl is not old enough to form a contract, not old enough to drive, not old enough to drink... She sure isn't old enough to deal with whether or not to end a life. This is where parents come in and help their children. No one should be helping kids with birth control issues other than their parents.

Notice how the libs/leftists always cry how they are all for the kids.
Except when its about not letting the kids mess up their lives and be apeshat wild that is. Then it is lets let em do it and provide a way to help them do it. Along with abort by doctor or abort by pill. Both just fine with the lib/leftists. After all morality be damned , it is the arrogance of the right wing nuts and Christians.--Tyr

Syrenn

04-05-2013, 10:22 PM

I would want to be that teen daughters parent, from day one, and be responsible for her education on such matters, not schools, not planned parenthood, and not easily obtained medications that make them think sex without consequences is easy

We are supposed to teach kids to come to us parents if they need something or to talk. We further teach them to speak to aunts, uncles, counselors at schools and a myriad of other options. I don't think we should stand them at the doorway, and say "Well, we're showing this to you, in case you don't have good parents, here are tools in case you fuck up..."

and i agree with you... parents are supposed to teach their children about sex. The problem is most dont....and most dont want to think or believe their children are having sex in the first place.

teenagers will be teenagers.... they dont talk to their parents, most never have and most never will.... they talk to their friends.

For me... i would rather see a girl use plan B then have to deal with an abortion....

Syrenn

04-05-2013, 10:23 PM

I had spoken to them and had responsibility explained to me. I knew all the risks, dangers and potential problems that can come out of sex, thanks to my parents.

Good for your parents. They did a fine job raising you.

Syrenn

04-05-2013, 10:25 PM

Why do kids do anything wrong.

Poor parenting.

exactly!

and like it or not....teens can and do have sex. The can and do deal with the problems without consulting their parents.

Robert A Whit

04-05-2013, 11:47 PM

exactly!

and like it or not....teens can and do have sex. The can and do deal with the problems without consulting their parents.

True, however it is about time parents do realize they still are in charge and they also tip off kids that what kids do is fine with them.

Like lying, stealing, etc, if the kids feel like doing that.

What worries me is that once upon a time, parents actually raised their children and spent a lot of family time trying to raise them to be good citizens.

Once upon a time.

Please, do not take this personally since I am speaking of in general.

My wife #1 had no intentions of controlling her kids but my wife #2 did an outstanding job of being a mother.

Syrenn

04-06-2013, 12:20 AM

True, however it is about time parents do realize they still are in charge and they also tip off kids that what kids do is fine with them.

Like lying, stealing, etc, if the kids feel like doing that.

What worries me is that once upon a time, parents actually raised their children and spent a lot of family time trying to raise them to be good citizens.

Once upon a time.

Please, do not take this personally since I am speaking of in general.

My wife #1 had no intentions of controlling her kids but my wife #2 did an outstanding job of being a mother.

i am not taking anything personally..... lol

and i agree.... once upon a time parents did have more control over their children. But since this is not once upon a time...and a good deal of parents do not have control..... having plan B available is an option to abortion.

Kathianne

04-06-2013, 12:46 AM

Firstly, you're correct, I think my blood pressure went up and I posted in a reactionary manner.

And while a big difference, it's still insane to be giving things like this out to kids. They are not of legal age and under PARENTS care, not planned parenthood!

In IL, stores card anyone who appears to be under 40 for cigarettes or liquor purchases. No ID and questioned? No sale to you, even if it's obvious you're over 30.

Schools cannot dispense an aspirin or tylenol, without a note from parent giving permission to do so. Not a problem though with condoms.

I couldn't call in permission for my daughter to take a Pamprin tab, but the school would make a decision that condoms should be given to her at 13? Something is wrong here.

A 13 year old should be able to buy the morning after pill, no doctor or parent counseling; but no cigarettes?

I'm glad they won't sell the cigs, but am appalled that they feel not only competent, but righteous in usurping parental authority.

jimnyc

04-06-2013, 06:40 AM

and i agree with you... parents are supposed to teach their children about sex. The problem is most dont....and most dont want to think or believe their children are having sex in the first place.

teenagers will be teenagers.... they dont talk to their parents, most never have and most never will.... they talk to their friends.

For me... i would rather see a girl use plan B then have to deal with an abortion....

But then parents who are raising their kids right now have to deal with the fact, that thanks to others, they have another element in the mix trying to assist with their parenting, when they weren't asked. And now their kids, have another element in their lives which could lead to them having sex earlier.

The face that "most don't" isn't a reason to make ALL parents have to go the route of surrogate parent.

jimnyc

04-06-2013, 06:47 AM

In IL, stores card anyone who appears to be under 40 for cigarettes or liquor purchases. No ID and questioned? No sale to you, even if it's obvious you're over 30.

Schools cannot dispense an aspirin or tylenol, without a note from parent giving permission to do so. Not a problem though with condoms.

I couldn't call in permission for my daughter to take a Pamprin tab, but the school would make a decision that condoms should be given to her at 13? Something is wrong here.

A 13 year old should be able to buy the morning after pill, no doctor or parent counseling; but no cigarettes?

I'm glad they won't sell the cigs, but am appalled that they feel not only competent, but righteous in usurping parental authority.

Yep, the schools and authorities think they know what is best to limit to our children, then they think they know what is best to offer our kids without our permission. Kids are under their parents care until they are of age - NOT under the schools care, not PP and not the local government - their PARENTS.

I'm sorry that others don't raise their kids properly. But then make it clear throughout schools that kids can go to counselors and such, and have them dispense private information perhaps. Offer them HELP, don't offer them quick fixes via medication behind a parents back.

And the same with my son who has allergies, who cannot take Benadryl without all kinds of permissions - but they can direct kids and/or make available to them the morning after pill?

Screwed up parenting of some shouldn't result in all kids and all parents being put into a situation where kids are availed medications that help them circumvent responsibility and family. What's next when this may not work for some, free abortions for kids over 15, but under 17, without consent, as they wouldn't want unwanted babies out there with kids who were fearful of talking with their parents? Insane.

Syrenn

04-06-2013, 10:39 AM

But then parents who are raising their kids right now have to deal with the fact, that thanks to others, they have another element in the mix trying to assist with their parenting, when they weren't asked. And now their kids, have another element in their lives which could lead to them having sex earlier.

The face that "most don't" isn't a reason to make ALL parents have to go the route of surrogate parent.

i dont see it as an assist in parenting. If parents have raised their children well..... then that child would not be in a position of needing or wanting plan B. If parents have raised their children well... that child would go to the parent if they thought then needed plan B.

Why would parents who have raised their children well, worry their children would be looking for planB in the first place?

jimnyc

04-06-2013, 10:43 AM

i dont see it as an assist in parenting. If parents have raised their children well..... then that child would not be in a position of needing or wanting plan B. If parents have raised their children well... that child would go to the parent if they thought then needed plan B.

Why would parents who have raised their children well, worry their children would be looking for planB in the first place?

If I raised my daughter correctly, that doesn't mean I want little mary jane from in one of her classes bragging about how she can have sex already at her age, because she can but cool little pills from the pharmacy that the parents would never know about. We teach our kids to avoid temptation, but that's still no reason to put temptation in front of them.

I know it's a terrible analogy... But we teach our kids not to smoke, how about making them for kids too? We teach our kids about guns, make them available? Drinking? Driving? and a bazillion other things we keep from our kids until they are of age? We can be the best parents in the world, and kids still fall to temptation, which is why we rely on good parenting AND regulations and such to keep certain things away from under age children.

Abbey Marie

04-06-2013, 11:11 AM

Missileman

04-06-2013, 11:30 AM

This whole site is worth looking at, but this section in particular. It's from a Catholic source, I acknowledge that up front, but that doesn't mean this is wrong...

http://www.morningafterpill.org/how-does-it-work.html

How Does it Work?

The emergency contraceptive/morning-after pill has three modes of action (as does the regular birth control pill); that is, it can work in one of three ways:

The normal menstrual cycle is altered, delaying ovulation; or
Ovulation is inhibited, meaning the egg will not be released from the ovary;
It can irritate the lining of the uterus (endometrium) so as to inhibit implantation.

Keep in mind that fertilization (the union of female ovum, or egg, and male sperm) occurs in the fallopian tube and that fertilization marks the beginning of a new human life - and the beginning of the pregnancy. The newly created child then travels down the fallopian tube to the uterus (womb) where he or she implants. Implantation is necessary for the new child to receive nourishment from the mother and continue developing. The journey from the fallopian tube to the womb takes between five and seven days during which pregnancy cannot be readily detected.
Therefore, if a woman ingests emergency contraception after fertilization has taken place, the third mode of action can occur. The lining of the uterus can be altered causing the woman's body to reject the living human embryo, making implantation impossible and the child will die. This result is called a chemical abortion; therefore emergency contraception is an abortifacient.
So, the only real "emergency" in all of this is the woman's fear of being pregnant.
Two of the most commonly used emergency contraceptive pills are Preven and Plan B. The websites for both of these drugs clearly indicate that each can work to prevent a "fertilized egg" (which is actually a newly formed human being) from implanting in the uterine wall:
How do the PREVEN® emergency contraceptive pills prevent pregnancy?
PREVEN® can stop or delay ovulation (the release of an egg), it can stop sperm from fertilizing an egg if it was already released, and it can stop a fertilized egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus."
Source: http://www.drugs.com/mtm/preven-ec.html

How Does Plan B® Work?
Plan B® (levonorgestrel) may prevent pregnancy by temporarily stopping the release of an egg from a woman's ovary, or it may prevent fertilization. It may also prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus. "
Source: http://www.planbonestep.com/faqs.aspx
Proponents of "emergency contraception," as well as the Preven and Plan B websites, contend that emergency contraception does not cause abortion. They argue that emergency contraception prevents pregnancy and thereby reduces the need for induced abortion. However, they intentionally define the term "pregnancy" as implantation of a fertilized egg in the lining of a woman's uterus, as opposed to "pregnancy" beginning at fertilization.
Whether one understands pregnancy as beginning at "implantation" or "fertilization," the heart of the matter is when human life begins. It is important to keep in mind that scientists have confirmed that at the moment the sperm and the egg join (fertilization), a new human being is created who is completely different from his/her mother.
This is not a subjective opinion, but an objective scientific fact. Accordingly, any artificial action that works to destroy a fertilized egg (human embryo) is abortifacient in nature.
See http://www.all.org/article.php?id=10325 and http://www.all.org/article.php?id=10125
Check out this video that explains how the pill is abortifacient (i.e., how it can kill your preborn baby without you even knowing): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiCU46_lWeE
The common description of the MAP as emergency "contraception" fails to accurately describe its possible abortifacient action and is misleading the public. The confusion is aggravated by attempts to re-define pregnancy as occurring after implantation. Potential users of MAP are not told that this drug may abort an established pregnancy. This is not informed consent.
Some basic facts about ovulation and the possibility of becoming pregnant:

A woman ovulates approximately once every 28 days. Therefore the chance that a woman will ovulate on any randomly selected day is 3.57 percent.
When a woman ovulates, the egg is able to be fertilized for 12-24 hours (1 day).
When sperm enters the woman's body, it remains alive and able to fertilize an egg for 1-5 days.
It takes emergency contraception from 12-24 hours to be effective (1 day).
Emergency contraception remains effective for at least 10 days.
It takes a fertilized egg 5-7 days after ovulation to implant in the woman's womb.

In 78% of all cases, taking emergency contraception is unnecessary because the woman could not have conceived a child (meaning she was not fertile to begin with).
Thus, emergency contraception only has an effect 22 percent of the time.
Of those 22 percent, the mode of action in which the emergency contraception works depends on when the woman takes it:
Emergency contraception taken within 24 hours, will act 43 percent of the time by preventing implantation (thus killing the newly created child)
Emergency contraception taken between 24 and 48 hours will act 57 percent of the time by preventing implantation (thus killing the newly created child)
Emergency contraception taken between 48 and 72 hours will act 71 percent of the time by preventing implantation (thus killing the newly created child)

See http://www.all.org/article.php?id=10150.
Experts confirm abortifacient potential of morning-after pill
The most recent scientific study on Levonorgestrel, the essential component of the "morning-after pill" or "emergency contraceptive," confirms that the drug does indeed have a third effect on users, which consists in preventing the implantation of a fertilized ovum in the womb of the mother.
The promoters of the drug in Latin America, where most countries have laws against abortion, have argued that the there is no scientific basis for the "third effect," and that therefore the drug should be legalized. Dr. Horacio Croxatto, professor at the Chilean Institute of Reproductive Medicine, said in 2006 that the morning-after pill "is not abortifacient because it only prevents pregnancy by stopping ovulation."
Nevertheless, the most recent study (2007) by Doctors Mikolajczyk and Stanford of the Department of Medicine in Public Health of the University of Bielefeld (Germany) clearly indicates that the pill's "real effect" includes mechanisms that prevent implantation.

IIRC, preventing implantation is also a possible function of a regular birth control pill.

DragonStryk72

04-06-2013, 11:49 AM

and i agree with you... parents are supposed to teach their children about sex. The problem is most dont....and most dont want to think or believe their children are having sex in the first place.

teenagers will be teenagers.... they dont talk to their parents, most never have and most never will.... they talk to their friends.

For me... i would rather see a girl use plan B then have to deal with an abortion....

And this teaches them... what? You keep saying that parents are supposed to teach, but essentially, teens are steadily having any chance of a real lesson removed. So far, they need no parental involvement or knowledge for abortion, and now the morning after pill. So what's the lesson? The only take away I can see is that there are no consequences for their actions, boys included.

Syrenn

04-06-2013, 02:49 PM

If I raised my daughter correctly, that doesn't mean I want little mary jane from in one of her classes bragging about how she can have sex already at her age, because she can but cool little pills from the pharmacy that the parents would never know about. We teach our kids to avoid temptation, but that's still no reason to put temptation in front of them.

I know it's a terrible analogy... But we teach our kids not to smoke, how about making them for kids too? We teach our kids about guns, make them available? Drinking? Driving? and a bazillion other things we keep from our kids until they are of age? We can be the best parents in the world, and kids still fall to temptation, which is why we rely on good parenting AND regulations and such to keep certain things away from under age children.

i dont think that having planB OTC is going to increase teen sex at all. Teens are having sex with our without the availability of planB. There is no age limit to buy condoms either....

If a girl is willing to take planB then i am sure her choice if she were to become pregnant would be an abortion. I would prefer them using the planB choice over an abortion any day.

Kids cant smoke, drink or do drugs...and yet many still seem to have zero problem laying their little hands on what they want. They are having sex no matter what their parents want or think.

Personally i would prefer girls be taught that all men must use condoms and for them to always carry them as a "just in case" instead of thinking planB is "just in case" You can fix a pregnancy... you cant fix some STD's

Syrenn

04-06-2013, 02:52 PM

And this teaches them... what? You keep saying that parents are supposed to teach, but essentially, teens are steadily having any chance of a real lesson removed. So far, they need no parental involvement or knowledge for abortion, and now the morning after pill. So what's the lesson? The only take away I can see is that there are no consequences for their actions, boys included.

if a teen is looking for planB.. then the parents already failed in what they were supposed to be teaching their teens....both boys and girls.

Robert A Whit

04-06-2013, 03:12 PM

i am not taking anything personally..... lol

and i agree.... once upon a time parents did have more control over their children. But since this is not once upon a time...and a good deal of parents do not have control..... having plan B available is an option to abortion.

We will not return to having a decent country so long as democrats win by default.

There some of us who realize that they want us to lay down our guns so we can't defend the nation. They figure that so long as some approve their acts, they win.

When one dehumanizes the unborn, they win. Recall how Hitler dehumanized people? I am speaking of democrats ideology and nothing more.

jimnyc

04-06-2013, 03:17 PM

IIRC, preventing implantation is also a possible function of a regular birth control pill.

They are similar - 'cept the regular birth control pill still requires a prescription.

jimnyc

04-06-2013, 03:20 PM

i dont think that having planB OTC is going to increase teen sex at all. Teens are having sex with our without the availability of planB. There is no age limit to buy condoms either....

If a girl is willing to take planB then i am sure her choice if she were to become pregnant would be an abortion. I would prefer them using the planB choice over an abortion any day.

Kids cant smoke, drink or do drugs...and yet many still seem to have zero problem laying their little hands on what they want. They are having sex no matter what their parents want or think.

Personally i would prefer girls be taught that all men must use condoms and for them to always carry them as a "just in case" instead of thinking planB is "just in case" You can fix a pregnancy... you cant fix some STD's

if a teen is looking for planB.. then the parents already failed in what they were supposed to be teaching their teens....both boys and girls.

We do our parts, and you're correct, kids aren't looking for these things. When little Johnny and Mary start bragging about their sexual exploits and how easy it is to get the pill later in the day, other kids get curious.

We keep drugs out of our schools, or we hope, and we teach our kids not to do them. But if it WAS there, and easily available, those who we took the time to teach might get a little tempted.

Robert A Whit

04-06-2013, 03:56 PM

Syrenn

04-06-2013, 05:04 PM

Women see the condom as the cure. But they may find out far too late, but men, or this man, hates condoms. If you want any item to kill the sensation, and what man wants to kill the sensation, those are it. They rank number one in a way to prevent sensation.

Why have sex if the idea is to kill sensation.

Would a woman want a layer of material in them to make the sensation go away?

Men cure this problem by taking them off and it is done all the time.

Syrenn speaks of STD. She is correct and that sure can be taught to kids and get off this kick parents can't get kids to pay any attention.

When kids won't pay attention, parents need to be responsible and admit it is their failure and not the kids behind that fact of life.

what you are also saying when you say... "men take them off all the time" is that those men dont give a rats ass if they get a women pregnant or give her a disease.. The whole thing about it "kills the sensation" is one of the major pressure player lines to coerace a women...or a naive girl into allowing sex without a condom.

you start a virgin male out in a condom...get them used to that sensation... trust me, he will get off just the same. Its called training them right.

And ya know what... to bad so sad for men if they DONT want to wear a condom. Women and girls should make hard lines that not wearing a condom is a deal breaker. If the boys used condoms...teen girls would not need planB. If the girls stood their ground and would not allow sex without a condom, planB would not be needed.

Robert A Whit

04-06-2013, 05:36 PM

what you are also saying when you say... "men take them off all the time" is that those men dont give a rats ass if they get a women pregnant or give her a disease.. The whole thing about it "kills the sensation" is one of the major pressure player lines to coerace a women...or a naive girl into allowing sex without a condom.

you start a virgin male out in a condom...get them used to that sensation... trust me, he will get off just the same. Its called training them right.

And ya know what... to bad so sad for men if they DONT want to wear a condom. Women and girls should make hard lines that not wearing a condom is a deal breaker. If the boys used condoms...teen girls would not need planB. If the girls stood their ground and would not allow sex without a condom, planB would not be needed.

You may expect me to not agree but I in fact do agree with you. (certain exceptions below)

You and others inform us all the time that sex is so powerful an urge that you can't even control kids who will follow that urge no matter what.

But you expect boys to fight human nature?

No, i do not accept the theory that kids will just have sex so parents must shut up about it, but those who think boys will be trained to keep them on strikes me as being naive.

Basically your case is they will not obey parents trying to prevent them from self harm but will listen to putting on condoms?

Girls just wont work that way since as you admit, they want sex that bad that they ignore parents.

It is a paradox. A conundrum. To claim kids will listen this time ...

Nope, if your first argument is true, this is false.

BTW, do you actually think parents can't get a message to girls to not have premarital sex but you can get them to listen to your comments about condoms?

When parents lecture them on proper condom proceedure, they are telling the young ladies, do it. Ho have fun. But never mind how the man wants his life mate his exclusive sex partner.

Rosie round heels lead the way in divorces.

DragonStryk72

04-06-2013, 05:39 PM

if a teen is looking for planB.. then the parents already failed in what they were supposed to be teaching their teens....both boys and girls.

Ah, good, so clearly we should just give up on them. Therefore, shouldn't we keep Plan B off the shelf?

DragonStryk72

04-06-2013, 05:54 PM

what you are also saying when you say... "men take them off all the time" is that those men dont give a rats ass if they get a women pregnant or give her a disease.. The whole thing about it "kills the sensation" is one of the major pressure player lines to coerace a women...or a naive girl into allowing sex without a condom.

you start a virgin male out in a condom...get them used to that sensation... trust me, he will get off just the same. Its called training them right.

And ya know what... to bad so sad for men if they DONT want to wear a condom. Women and girls should make hard lines that not wearing a condom is a deal breaker. If the boys used condoms...teen girls would not need planB. If the girls stood their ground and would not allow sex without a condom, planB would not be needed.

The problem with your synopsis here is that it pretty much states that guys are thinking during sex. Trust me, that is not happening. The reason guys take off the condom is so much simpler: Condoms are uncomfortable. Yeah, believe it or not, strapping a rubber band around the length of our penis... not fun at all. There's also the issue of sensation loss, and sometimes, if you're say new to having sex (aka teens), then your hands may not exactly be working as fully as you would like them to be.

Now, if you're not used to a condom, like say every virgin male on the planet, then you may lose your erection. At this point, it really doesn't matter what the girl says, you feel like absolute hell.

And btw, too bad so sad for women who refuse to get on proper birth control before they become sexually active, or here's one, use a female condom. Oh, are we not supposed to talk about that? If the girls would use birth control, they would not need Plan B. If the girls exercised some forethought, and made sure they were covered aside from a condom, plan B would not be needed. Convenient that it's all on the boys, huh?

Robert A Whit

04-06-2013, 06:15 PM

The problem with your synopsis here is that it pretty much states that guys are thinking during sex. Trust me, that is not happening. The reason guys take off the condom is so much simpler: Condoms are uncomfortable. Yeah, believe it or not, strapping a rubber band around the length of our penis... not fun at all. There's also the issue of sensation loss, and sometimes, if you're say new to having sex (aka teens), then your hands may not exactly be working as fully as you would like them to be.

Now, if you're not used to a condom, like say every virgin male on the planet, then you may lose your erection. At this point, it really doesn't matter what the girl says, you feel like absolute hell.

And btw, too bad so sad for women who refuse to get on proper birth control before they become sexually active, or here's one, use a female condom. Oh, are we not supposed to talk about that? If the girls would use birth control, they would not need Plan B. If the girls exercised some forethought, and made sure they were covered aside from a condom, plan B would not be needed. Convenient that it's all on the boys, huh?

Only one of the two can get pregnant. I dunno about the rest of you, but were this to be able to happen to men, condoms might have more favor.

But condoms really F^^k things up, pardon the pun.

And then a lot of these girls actually crave having a baby.

A lot of guys will tell you how common it is for the girl to tell them they actually want to get pregnant.

That may be the best protection for both of them since many men don't feel flattered, but scared out of their minds.

logroller

04-06-2013, 07:51 PM

IIRC, preventing implantation is also a possible function of a regular birth control pill.
I thought that too. But it doesn't. So far as the morning after pill, I posted more rcent evidence that its effects upon the endometrium occur during a period (no pun intended) of the cycle that it would prevent ovulation, and what was measured was not determined to have any effect on implantation. So far as the statistics given on implantation occurring after the use of the morning after pill, that's about the same statistic as if not used at all; about half of all fertilized eggs fail to implant naturally. The one study I found, the one your source quotes, was unable to be duplicated in two subsequent experiments designed to duplicate the results. http://ec.princeton.edu/questions/EC-Review.pdf

Syrenn

04-06-2013, 08:22 PM

You may expect me to not agree but I in fact do agree with you. (certain exceptions below)

You and others inform us all the time that sex is so powerful an urge that you can't even control kids who will follow that urge no matter what.

Ive never said you could or could not control teens..... i said that most parents do not teach their children about sex and have no idea what their teens are up to. I do not believe it is about urges.... at that age is is mostly about pressure.

But you expect boys to fight human nature?

I expect boys to use condoms if they are going to have sex. For their protection just as much for the girls protection.

No, i do not accept the theory that kids will just have sex so parents must shut up about it, but those who think boys will be trained to keep them on strikes me as being naive.

Where have i said that parents should shut up? I have said that parents need to teach their children about sex well before any issue of planB comes up.

Basically your case is they will not obey parents trying to prevent them from self harm but will listen to putting on condoms?

My case is that teens will try and deal with issues themselves..... before they tell their parents anything. If teens do not have a working relationship whit their parents and cant talk to them... then access to planB is a good thing in my opinion.

I know what I would have done if faced with a situation like that way back when... and it would have been planB and waiting to see what happened next. I have no doubt that teens act any differently now as i did back then.

Girls just wont work that way since as you admit, they want sex that bad that they ignore parents.

Girls wont work what way? Most if not all teens ignore their parents.... didn't you? I know i sure did.

It is a paradox. A conundrum. To claim kids will listen this time ...

I do not claim that teens will listen to anything.... they can and will do exactly what they want to do. The issue here is what they have access to, to deal with the possible problem of unprotected sex.

Nope, if your first argument is true, this is false.

Dont put words in my mouth and you wont have a problem with what i am saying.... ;)

BTW, do you actually think parents can't get a message to girls to not have premarital sex but you can get them to listen to your comments about condoms?

Premarital sex is not the problem.. unwanted pregnancy is. I have no problem with abortions.... Given the choice of a girl getting an abortion without telling her parents... or getting her hands on planB the next day. Ill go with them getting planB.

When parents lecture them on proper condom proceedure, they are telling the young ladies, do it. Ho have fun. But never mind how the man wants his life mate his exclusive sex partner.

No, they are telling them.... dont have unprotected sex... I would hope that they also would be giving them the skills to not bow to pressure from a boy to not wear one... because he doesn't like them.

Rosie round heels lead the way in divorces.

Not sure what you mean by rosei round heals.

Syrenn

04-06-2013, 08:24 PM

Ah, good, so clearly we should just give up on them. Therefore, shouldn't we keep Plan B off the shelf?

I never said that parents should give up on their children.

PlanB is not just on the self for teens....

Syrenn

04-06-2013, 08:29 PM

The problem with your synopsis here is that it pretty much states that guys are thinking during sex. Trust me, that is not happening. The reason guys take off the condom is so much simpler: Condoms are uncomfortable. Yeah, believe it or not, strapping a rubber band around the length of our penis... not fun at all. There's also the issue of sensation loss, and sometimes, if you're say new to having sex (aka teens), then your hands may not exactly be working as fully as you would like them to be.

Now, if you're not used to a condom, like say every virgin male on the planet, then you may lose your erection. At this point, it really doesn't matter what the girl says, you feel like absolute hell.

And btw, too bad so sad for women who refuse to get on proper birth control before they become sexually active, or here's one, use a female condom. Oh, are we not supposed to talk about that? If the girls would use birth control, they would not need Plan B. If the girls exercised some forethought, and made sure they were covered aside from a condom, plan B would not be needed. Convenient that it's all on the boys, huh?

I am all for all young girls being on the pill... the pill is for birth control.

condoms are to prevent STD's as well as birth control.

i know male teens do not think, nor do they want to use condoms..... which is were planB comes into play ;)

lol.. and men howl just as much about a female condom... it does the same thing in regards to sensation.

Robert A Whit

04-06-2013, 10:33 PM

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=629555#post629555)

You may expect me to not agree but I in fact do agree with you. (certain exceptions below)

You and others inform us all the time that sex is so powerful an urge that you can't even control kids who will follow that urge no matter what.

Ive never said you could or could not control teens..... i said that most parents do not teach their children about sex and have no idea what their teens are up to. I do not believe it is about urges.... at that age is is mostly about pressure.

(and others) (also, I agree with what you said about parents) (others say urges; you say pressure; presumably by peers) ((my comment was based on my belief you saw sex as a powerful urge and thus out of the control of parents))

But you expect boys to fight human nature?

I expect boys to use condoms if they are going to have sex. For their protection just as much for the girls protection.

(Yeah, as if they will follow those directions)

No, i do not accept the theory that kids will just have sex so parents must shut up about it, but those who think boys will be trained to keep them on strikes me as being naive.

Where have i said that parents should shut up? I have said that parents need to teach their children about sex well before any issue of planB comes up.

(Great. The purpose of conversation is so you say A, I think you said B, and you get to correct your readers. Plan B as applied to children seems to be a case of the Feds taking charge of kids. Not a good idea)

Basically your case is they will not obey parents trying to prevent them from self harm but will listen to putting on condoms?

My case is that teens will try and deal with issues themselves..... before they tell their parents anything. If teens do not have a working relationship whit their parents and cant talk to them... then access to planB is a good thing in my opinion.

I know what I would have done if faced with a situation like that way back when... and it would have been planB and waiting to see what happened next. I have no doubt that teens act any differently now as i did back then.

(I agree teens [[in general of course]] are said to pay little attention to parents. Even the Amish kids have a period where they get away with almost anything so even in those cases of iron clamps on kids, kids can and do stray. Parents really are trained this way in general. Go out, have fun, Mom and dad are not here to discuss such problems and the few we do discuss, may end up being thought of by kids as long boring lectures. Parents in other words do a poor job. Adults are not the purpose of this discussion, but only those minors unable to do things like agree to contracts, etc, so the parent still has the major role per law and will be blamed for some or much of what kids do. Plan B for those kids is a parents way of passing the buck. Too many parents don't mind passing the buck, confirming my concept that they don't care very much. They figure why not let kids decide. But kids can't contract nor do things by law that adults can. Seems to me it merely passes the buck.)

Girls just wont work that way since as you admit, they want sex that bad that they ignore parents.

Girls wont work what way? Most if not all teens ignore their parents.... didn't you? I know i sure did.

(Let's say you saw this as I see it and rather than it be about sex, it is about crime; such as shop lifting. What is plan B for shoplifters, purse snatchers and masked kids using guns to hold up a store? Would you agree that parents may then have a role they must play or be judged as poor parents? Sex may be fun, but it like the others carries a lot of harm given some girls love babies and to dispose of one may crush them as much as if they got raped. Was I perfect? I got no girls pregnant and my first child was as a married man. I also did not use condoms.)

It is a paradox. A conundrum. To claim kids will listen this time ...

I do not claim that teens will listen to anything.... they can and will do exactly what they want to do. The issue here is what they have access to, to deal with the possible problem of unprotected sex.

Nope, if your first argument is true, this is false.

Dont put words in my mouth and you wont have a problem with what i am saying.... ;)

(Never is that my intent. I did my best to understand your super brief argument and consider this my perhaps last chance to see what you believe in.) (I am happy you do not think kids will listen thus it is risky to believe they believe in your plan B)

BTW, do you actually think parents can't get a message to girls to not have premarital sex but you can get them to listen to your comments about condoms?

Premarital sex is not the problem.. unwanted pregnancy is. I have no problem with abortions.... Given the choice of a girl getting an abortion without telling her parents... or getting her hands on planB the next day. Ill go with them getting planB.

(I don't agree. Clearly the sex is the problem. And if you want to know why, just examine the divorce figures. Examine how many of the public have many marriages under their belt. The idea that children want several step fathers or step mothers seems to me to be a case even you won't wish to subscribe to. So, sex is a problem. Here in CA, a major problem for men is that the women they date are not remotely likely to be loyal to them. From a mans perspective, this is well known to me. Bear in mind it is not me saying sex is not a problem. Kids raised by parents who divorced several times have a lesson imbedded in them. They probably saw mom or dad fooling around so they think it is normal. And they treat others that way. Yes, sex is a problem. When I was a teen, this was not much of a problem. Why not? We did not have the pill. Morals went to hell once the pill was sold to the public. Do you realize that to far too many people a man/man doing oral sex makes more sense to them than kids being chaste if at all possible?)

When parents lecture them on proper condom procedure, they are telling the young ladies, do it. Go have fun. But never mind how the man wants his life mate his exclusive sex partner.

No, they are telling them.... dont have unprotected sex... I would hope that they also would be giving them the skills to not bow to pressure from a boy to not wear one... because he doesn't like them.

(We are doomed to society falling back to a free for all era if we follow that path. Don't have sex yet is what kids need to know. But if Mom does not believe that, they won't believe it. Boys hate condoms. This is why so few of them use them.)

Rosie round heels lead the way in divorces.

Not sure what you mean by rosei round heals.

Round heels, not heals.

I must be talking to a much younger lady. This term is what we said in the 1950s to conote a woman who slept around. Today that seems to be normal or you would not even be thinking of a plan B. I can also say with no fear of being wrong that the once married, or even many presently married women, do fool around and they make no bones either.

I endured the sight of a woman I dated (maybe for a year) giving some guy I did not know a BJ in the BART parking lot. But she was by far not the only woman doing things like that. I have apparently found a way to be involved with just those types.

DragonStryk72

04-06-2013, 11:04 PM

I am all for all young girls being on the pill... the pill is for birth control.

condoms are to prevent STD's as well as birth control.

i know male teens do not think, nor do they want to use condoms..... which is were planB comes into play ;)

lol.. and men howl just as much about a female condom... it does the same thing in regards to sensation.

So, wait, if the girls are observing proper Birth Control (Pill, Nuvaring, inserts, whatever), How exactly does Plan B come into play? You keep coming back to it, but again, it only removes responsibility, it does not teach it. You can't keep having both arguments on this one. We're either condoning extremely irresponsible behavior (i.e. unprotected sex), or at some point we make them have to own up to what they've done. The only thing this ruling does is take away one of the few last point of having to take responsibility.

You complain about parents not being responsible, but rulings such as this only remove the chance to be responsible. Responsibility amongst all involved is diminished because no one has to fess up. That is not the way to create an atmosphere of greater responsibility, just less.

DragonStryk72

04-06-2013, 11:11 PM

Round heels, not heals.

I must be talking to a much younger lady. This term is what we said in the 1950s to conote a woman who slept around. Today that seems to be normal or you would not even be thinking of a plan B. I can also say with no fear of being wrong that the once married, or even many presently married women, do fool around and they make no bones either.

I endured the sight of a woman I dated (maybe for a year) giving some guy I did not know a BJ in the BART parking lot. But she was by far not the only woman doing things like that. I have apparently found a way to be involved with just those types.

I do have to correct a point here. I'm the son of divorced parents, and so far, I'm neither married nor divorced. Actually, the dysfunction of my parents' marriage gave me and my siblings a sort of list of warning signs. If anything, I'm more focused on making sure that when I get married, that it's to the right person, and that I get it right the first time around.

Syrenn

04-06-2013, 11:33 PM

(and others) (also, I agree with what you said about parents) (others say urges; you say pressure; presumably by peers) ((my comment was based on my belief you saw sex as a powerful urge and thus out of the control of parents))

Teen "urges" are completly out of a parents control. Any parent who thinks otherwise...should reconsider that notion. Yes i mean pressure from friends... just look at facebook and texting. In my opinion teens today live in an instant gratification world... they want it and they get it. Sex is no different in their view.

(Yeah, as if they will follow those directions)

I did not say they would..i said that is what i would expect. I would expect a boy to remember what his parents taught him...and a girl to remember what her parents taught her. Some remember and others dont. Most dont. Adults dont remember themselves or just dont care to use a condom.... so it is not just teens having this issue.

(Great. The purpose of conversation is so you say A, I think you said B, and you get to correct your readers. Plan B as applied to children seems to be a case of the Feds taking charge of kids. Not a good idea)

In your opinion.. yes. In my opinion, no it is not the feds trying to take charge of kids. It is the feds saying that planB is now an over the counter drug. It is in no way targeted to children.

(Let's say you saw this as I see it and rather than it be about sex, it is about crime; such as shop lifting. What is plan B for shoplifters, purse snatchers and masked kids using guns to hold up a store? Would you agree that parents may then have a role they must play or be judged as poor parents? Sex may be fun, but it like the others carries a lot of harm given some girls love babies and to dispose of one may crush them as much as if they got raped. Was I perfect? I got no girls pregnant and my first child was as a married man. I also did not use condoms.)

I dont see this as about sex.... i also dont see it as a crime. I see this as about birth control and access to another option other then abortion. Dont get me wrong..i fully understand the stance against teens having access to this drug.

(Never is that my intent. I did my best to understand your super brief argument and consider this my perhaps last chance to see what you believe in.) (I am happy you do not think kids will listen thus it is risky to believe they believe in your plan B)

I remember being a teen...do you? I listened to no one but myself.

(I don't agree. Clearly the sex is the problem. And if you want to know why, just examine the divorce figures. Examine how many of the public have many marriages under their belt. The idea that children want several step fathers or step mothers seems to me to be a case even you won't wish to subscribe to. So, sex is a problem. Here in CA, a major problem for men is that the women they date are not remotely likely to be loyal to them. From a mans perspective, this is well known to me. Bear in mind it is not me saying sex is not a problem. Kids raised by parents who divorced several times have a lesson imbedded in them. They probably saw mom or dad fooling around so they think it is normal. And they treat others that way. Yes, sex is a problem. When I was a teen, this was not much of a problem. Why not? We did not have the pill. Morals went to hell once the pill was sold to the public. Do you realize that to far too many people a man/man doing oral sex makes more sense to them than kids being chaste if at all possible?)

planB does not deal with or have anything to do with sex. PlanB is about birth control. Very different things. PlanB does not deal with or have anything to do with divorce, planB is about birth control.

LOL....teens should also be told not to bit blow jobs if the receiving male is not wearing a condom either. No you cant get pregnant... but the incidence of oral HPV s on the rise.....

(We are doomed to society falling back to a free for all era if we follow that path. Don't have sex yet is what kids need to know. But if Mom does not believe that, they won't believe it. Boys hate condoms. This is why so few of them use them.)

To bad boys and men hate condoms..... if they used condoms there would be on need for planB now where there?

Round heels, not heals.

I must be talking to a much younger lady. This term is what we said in the 1950s to conote a woman who slept around. Today that seems to be normal or you would not even be thinking of a plan B. I can also say with no fear of being wrong that the once married, or even many presently married women, do fool around and they make no bones either.

I endured the sight of a woman I dated (maybe for a year) giving some guy I did not know a BJ in the BART parking lot. But she was by far not the only woman doing things like that. I have apparently found a way to be involved with just those types.

LOL... never heard of that one before....thanks for the explanation. slut is the word i think you were looking for.... though it is quite a double standard.

Syrenn

04-06-2013, 11:41 PM

So, wait, if the girls are observing proper Birth Control (Pill, Nuvaring, inserts, whatever), How exactly does Plan B come into play? You keep coming back to it, but again, it only removes responsibility, it does not teach it. You can't keep having both arguments on this one. We're either condoning extremely irresponsible behavior (i.e. unprotected sex), or at some point we make them have to own up to what they've done. The only thing this ruling does is take away one of the few last point of having to take responsibility.

You complain about parents not being responsible, but rulings such as this only remove the chance to be responsible. Responsibility amongst all involved is diminished because no one has to fess up. That is not the way to create an atmosphere of greater responsibility, just less.

I said i would have all teen girls on the pill. Not all of them are. That is where planb would come into play....

and where do i say anything about "responsibility"?

Why do teens have to own up to anything if they can deal with the problem on their own by themselves? And as far as i am concerned.... a teen seeking planB after unprotected sex IS taking responsibility.... for not having an unwanted pregnancy and all that that entails.

Syrenn

04-06-2013, 11:43 PM

I do have to correct a point here. I'm the son of divorced parents, and so far, I'm neither married nor divorced. Actually, the dysfunction of my parents' marriage gave me and my siblings a sort of list of warning signs. If anything, I'm more focused on making sure that when I get married, that it's to the right person, and that I get it right the first time around.

Anti- role models..... yes i have them too. Good for you and your siblings seeing them for what they are.

Robert A Whit

04-07-2013, 12:44 AM

LOL... never heard of that one before....thanks for the explanation. slut is the word i think you were looking for.... though it is quite a double standard.

Here is what I found out. Don't blame me for seeing your signals in this fashion. I offered you outs and you did not take them.

I see a person who is pro kids having sex and you give excuses why.

I see how my comments are not really addressed. I speak of sex in one context and explain how it resembles crime, so far as being completely wrong prior to marriage, and this issue is skirted.

I get your point of view. I can't accept that kids having sex can't be helped.

It can be helped by parents who don't defend them doing it.

OK, marriage to me is far too important to tarnish it as this is leading down the path to.

If a person won't value marriage prior to marriage, why would they value it later on?

You keep this only on one matter of the day after pill. I speak of the before pregnant non pill.

What seems strange to me is I understand my point but am not sure you do.

Syrenn

04-07-2013, 01:00 AM

Here is what I found out. Don't blame me for seeing your signals in this fashion. I offered you outs and you did not take them.

I see a person who is pro kids having sex and you give excuses why.

I was not blaming you for anything....

I am pro nothing as to kids having sex. If they do they do.. if they dont they dont... i dont care, teens have sex.. simple fact. I am pro planB being over the counter...

I see how my comments are not really addressed. I speak of sex in one context and explain how it resembles crime, so far as being completely wrong prior to marriage, and this issue is skirted.

unless we are talking about adults ad children or rape.... teens having sex is not a crime. I do not think pre marital sex is wrong. .

I get your point of view. I can't accept that kids having sex can't be helped.

It has always happened..... i can and do accept that teens have sex. It is better to deal with the fact that they do instead of wishing that they would not.

It can be helped by parents who don't defend them doing it.

i agree.... but so far that is not working out so well. It never has and never will.

OK, marriage to me is far too important to tarnish it as this is leading down the path to.

Where have i said anything about marriage?

If a person won't value marriage prior to marriage, why would they value it later on?

What does any of this have to do with valuing marriage prior to marriage? This is about birth control.

and if you have not figured it out yet.... sex does not a marriage make. Sex is only one part of marriage...

You keep this only on one matter of the day after pill. I speak of the before pregnant non pill.

the before pregnant non pill days are long gone. And even then it did not stop teens from having sex....

What seems strange to me is I understand my point but am not sure you do.

Your point is a different topic then the OP. What i am getting is that your point has nothing to do with planB being over the counter and available like aspirin....

but more toward teens not having sex in the first place...

Kathianne

04-07-2013, 01:56 AM

Your point is a different topic then the OP. What i am getting is that your point has nothing to do with planB being over the counter and available like aspirin....

but more toward teens not having sex in the first place...

Bobby tends to take things off topic, even his own posts. In the above alone, he speaks as if he thinks sex is for marriage alone, though he's attempted to regale us with his varied sex life. Indeed, in some cases regaled should be replaced with disgust, but be that as it may. . .

red states rule

04-07-2013, 05:48 AM

Years from now we will start to learn about the harmful side effects of this drug

The women (or children) who take the drug wil be speaking out about those side effects

The ambulance chasing lawyers will see big bucks and be filing cases al over the country

and libs and the liberal media will blame Bush and Reagan (since it was a Reagan appointed Judge who made this insane ruling) and use the women involved as political props

Missileman

04-07-2013, 09:09 AM

I thought that too. But it doesn't. So far as the morning after pill, I posted more rcent evidence that its effects upon the endometrium occur during a period (no pun intended) of the cycle that it would prevent ovulation, and what was measured was not determined to have any effect on implantation. So far as the statistics given on implantation occurring after the use of the morning after pill, that's about the same statistic as if not used at all; about half of all fertilized eggs fail to implant naturally. The one study I found, the one your source quotes, was unable to be duplicated in two subsequent experiments designed to duplicate the results. http://ec.princeton.edu/questions/EC-Review.pdf

http://womenshealth.about.com/od/thepill/f/howpillworks.htm

The progestin in the Minipill may prevent ovulation; however it may not do this reliably each month. The Minipill works further by thickening the mucous around the cervix and preventing sperm from entering the uterus. The lining of the uterus is also affected in a way that prevents fertilized eggs from implanting into the wall of the uterus. The Minipill is taken every day. You may not have a period while taking the Minipill, if you do have periods that means you are still ovulating and your risk for pregnancy occuring is greater.

:dunno:

jimnyc

04-07-2013, 10:16 AM

I am all for all young girls being on the pill... the pill is for birth control.

Yes, I know sometimes that against all of our best intentions, some kids will still have sex. With that said, I am personally not for all young girls being on the pill. I think we should be instilling better values in them and having them wait until they are a little more responsible and a little more capable of fully understanding (assuming we are still talking about under age kids).

Syrenn

04-07-2013, 11:15 AM

Yes, I know sometimes that against all of our best intentions, some kids will still have sex. With that said, I am personally not for all young girls being on the pill. I think we should be instilling better values in them and having them wait until they are a little more responsible and a little more capable of fully understanding (assuming we are still talking about under age kids).

i agree jim... Parents should be instilling better values.

But in this world of instant gratification... sex in their minds is no different then they want a cell phone. Kids these days do not know what NO means.. nor do they understand waiting for anything.

The thing is... being responsible IS being on the pill if you are planning on having sex. Being responsible IS knowing you made a mistake that could end in an unwanted pregnancy...and seeking out planB IS being responsible. Though, sadly, neither of these birth control measures address the issue of practicing safe sex.

jimnyc

04-07-2013, 11:45 AM

i agree jim... Parents should be instilling better values.

But in this world of instant gratification... sex in their minds is no different then they want a cell phone. Kids these days do not know what NO means.. nor do they understand waiting for anything.

The thing is... being responsible IS being on the pill if you are planning on having sex. Being responsible IS knowing you made a mistake that could end in an unwanted pregnancy...and seeking out planB IS being responsible. Though, sadly, neither of these birth control measures address the issue of practicing safe sex.

If a kid wants a cell phone, the PARENT will decide if they are old enough, or responsible enough. Ultimately the decision belongs to the parent until the child is of legal age. :)

Other than that, I mostly agree with you. But I think our legislators, schools, PP and others - maybe they should be teaching kids to wait until marriage, or at least legal age, instead of leaving the door open for them to that instant gratification? It's bad enough that kids might be out there behind our backs having sex, but let them do what kids for generations and generations have done - buy a condom, instead of taking medication that can potentially be damaging, or not understood fully and used like a daily vitamin.

Syrenn

04-07-2013, 11:53 AM

If a kid wants a cell phone, the PARENT will decide if they are old enough, or responsible enough. Ultimately the decision belongs to the parent until the child is of legal age. :)

Other than that, I mostly agree with you. But I think our legislators, schools, PP and others - maybe they should be teaching kids to wait until marriage, or at least legal age, instead of leaving the door open for them to that instant gratification? It's bad enough that kids might be out there behind our backs having sex, but let them do what kids for generations and generations have done - buy a condom, instead of taking medication that can potentially be damaging, or not understood fully and used like a daily vitamin.

lol...from what i see, ive yet to see a parent say NO you cant have a cell phone. :laugh: Good lord the sil bought her son a iPhone when he was 9.... because he wanted one of his own.

i dont think anyone should wait until marriage to have sex. Did you wait? I sure didnt.

trust me... i am ALL for them using condoms instead of other methods. Sadly as you see... men dont like condoms and prefer not to use them.

So when teen girls are looking for planB.....Think about hanging the dick who didn't use a condom. :laugh2:

Robert A Whit

04-07-2013, 12:52 PM

lol...from what i see, ive yet to see a parent say NO you cant have a cell phone. :laugh: Good lord the sil bought her son a iPhone when he was 9.... because he wanted one of his own.

i dont think anyone should wait until marriage to have sex. Did you wait? I sure didnt.

trust me... i am ALL for them using condoms instead of other methods. Sadly as you see... men dont like condoms and prefer not to use them.

So when teen girls are looking for planB.....Think about hanging the dick who didn't use a condom. :laugh2:

What does a youth get from having sex?

If somebody tells me the peers are awesome sex partners, which I do not believe, at least that is one excuse. But for a young boy to fumble as the amateur he and she are makes no sense. Does she think with her area between her legs too?

Boys are built that way.

I don't see how premarital sex teaches humans that in marriage you don't fool around.

These days in CA, married women are not off limits. They grew up thinking between their legs and have not stopped.

It was bad enough men were that way, now it is the women too.

Guys, women are sneaky now.

Kids are active because the parents simply do not mind.

Parents should help kids be better citizens, not join them and approve poor behavior.

Robert A Whit

04-07-2013, 01:02 PM

Most posters were not alive during the pre pill era. They may have read it happened or just not thought about it.

We once lived as much more moral people. Pregnancy did happen but for most of us, males and females, we did things different. Back then boys realized taht they might be held to account for pregnancy. Today post pill, they changed. It then became just the job of the girl to take care of this. Now women noticed they still got pregnant. Pills were very popular. I do see both good and bad in sex.

Good things are for married people, they have the safety of each other.

Today being married does not mean you don't have sex with others, all it means is ... well the man pays the bills. But if he thinks that wife is faithful to him or she thinks he is, surprise, surprise, surprise as Gomer Pyle used to say on TV.

Girls sample the boys now. Those boys are not good sex partners. Hell, any honest woman who has had sex with a very good lover can tell you she hated it with some and the older one gets the more they should improve. Even older men are not cutting it in some cases. Btu a boy of 15????

Forget it. They are doing it to please one part of their body. A true lover pleases the partner.

Teens learn lessons as teens. When adult women or men approve sex outside of marriage, it will only also keep happening during marriage. Society took off the taboo so today the kids expect sex both in and out of marriages. And we wonder how democrats did this? They started using sex to change this country. And they still use sex as a tool.

Syrenn

04-07-2013, 02:41 PM

What does a youth get from having sex?

If somebody tells me the peers are awesome sex partners, which I do not believe, at least that is one excuse. But for a young boy to fumble as the amateur he and she are makes no sense. Does she think with her area between her legs too?

Boys are built that way.

You are mixing up biology and morality. Biology tells their bodies to have sex... regardless if its good or bad. Morality tells them if you should or should not. And just an FYI.... boys and girls are built the same.

I don't see how premarital sex teaches humans that in marriage you don't fool around.

let see... premarital sex teaches you if the person you are going to marry is going to be a god sexual partner. Premarital sex teaches you if are compatible. I highly encourage premarital sex.. i may cut down on the divorce rate..

tell me something.... did you have sex with your wives before you married them?

and where on earth are you getting the idea that not having sex before you get married teaches you not to fool around after you are married??

These days in CA, married women are not off limits. They grew up thinking between their legs and have not stopped.

Really, i am pretty sure they are off limits..... have you tried walking up to one on the street and asking if they want to screw you? Try it sometime and see if you are right or wrong about "that women are not off limits" thing

It was bad enough men were that way, now it is the women too.

sucks when women play the game same as men doesn't it?

Guys, women are sneaky now.

So let me get this straight, women are sneaky for cheating.... something in the past was a male dominated play ground? Doesn't them mean men have always been sneaky and proves out that they still are?

Kids are active because the parents simply do not mind.

kids are active because their parents have no idea what their kids are up to.

Parents should help kids be better citizens, not join them and approve poor behavior.

Sex, what you do in the bedroom, when you do it, how often you do it, who you do it with..... have nothing to do with being a "good citizen"

AND have noting to do with planB being sold over the counter

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

04-07-2013, 03:36 PM

you may not, others hear may not..... but the vast majority do. I think having the sex talk is embarrassing for most parents...and if they think they can get out of it, they let it go thinking they will be taught in school.

If a 13 year old is asking for condoms.... they most likely think they need them. Thinking about using condoms is better then not thinking about condoms. If they are asking for them at school and not mom and dad.... that should tell you something right there.

same for the morning after pill for teen girls. If they had had a good relationship with thier parents...they would have asked to be put on the pill. I know what i was up to at that age.... i have no doubt girls today are the same... or worse.

Times have changed greatly since I was a teen. Had I asked my mom or dad for condoms ,money to buy condoms at 13,14,15 ,16, 17 or even 18 my ass would have felt the answer!!!
No way in hell would I have asked. Of course with the kind of money parents just hand over to their teen children these days asking for money to purchase condoms is hardly required.Around here there are still machines that sell them in single packs in men's rooms.
Morning after pill is another story . Perhaps an age limit needs to be set, no younger than 16 years old may purchase without a prescription. And that is after I have already compromised from 18 down to 16..

Missileman

04-07-2013, 03:47 PM

Robert A Whit

04-07-2013, 04:18 PM

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=629693#post629693)

What does a youth get from having sex?

If somebody tells me the peers are awesome sex partners, which I do not believe, at least that is one excuse. But for a young boy to fumble as the amateur he and she are makes no sense. Does she think with her area between her legs too?

Boys are built that way.

You are mixing up biology and morality. Biology tells their bodies to have sex... regardless if its good or bad. Morality tells them if you should or should not. And just an FYI.... boys and girls are built the same.

They do get mixed. You seem totally unaware of all facets of nature. You need me to explain it to you. LMAO :laugh::laugh:

Humans have many needs and a lot of wants. Sex as you approve of it supplies a want and not a need. Food is a need. I don't suspect you will use your same form of argument should I defend kids going to the store and robbing or taking things and not paying? If you think that stealing is approved by parents as well, we need to talk more. There is nothing that compels youth to have all this sex you fondly want them to have.

When you make that argument, I need not ask why parents kids have sex, the parents want them to.

Even your argument includes making sure those products of sex, eg. kids, can be rooted out and destroyed.

I don't get it why this nation took the path it took but I think I know some of the reaons. Pills for one. Women using them feel unable to have a kid so they feel entitled to screw any guy in town they feel like screwing. They want us to believe they don't get judged but they are not men. Men love to lie so will tell them have sex with me, you are still a good girl. Wrong. Men lie to women. A lot of divorce begins with sex and also has a lot of lying going on.

I don't see how premarital sex teaches humans that in marriage you don't fool around.

let see... premarital sex teaches you if the person you are going to marry is going to be a god sexual partner. Premarital sex teaches you if are compatible. I highly encourage premarital sex.. i may cut down on the divorce rate..

Here is what I suspected from the start. You actually want kids to have sex. I knew as a kid some parents who also taught their kids to steal thinking it was a life skill they needed. Adults not married have more savvy and what you say may well be good for some of them. I maintain once people learn to cheat, and your system teaches them that skill, they cheat for life. Young boys are terrible teachers. They would need to learn those skills you crave them to have taught to them by some very mature adult woman. It adds to the divorce rate rather than solving it.

maybe you mean some adults should start sex courses and teach kids what great sex is. I dunno. But clearly you crave kids engage in sex. And maybe from your view, given this is common in the SF Bay area, you see it that way. A lot of parents don't agree. I being one of them.

tell me something.... did you have sex with your wives before you married them?

Well, it had to get personal at some point I suppose. I was a very loyal democrat when I first married. If it moved and was female, I wanted as much of it as I could get. Hurting the girls was not a problem for me. So long as they gave me what I wanted.

But I was so wrong. Take into consideration the novice piano player. They will not make good music at first. If this was music, sure, make mistakes, and hit the wrong keys and supposedly you will get very good. Babies are not pianos. The girls playing poorly are not punished due to not playing well. But your argument hinges on a pill to correct a mistake. Some of us do not see babies as a mistake. We may not have lived that perfect life we encourage for others. We could be called rehabilitated if you must know. Sex between me and my former wives did not build a good foundation for committment. Wife #1 was a profilic cheater. Wife #2 was not but she actualy told her church elders as if she was ashamed of her acts. We were married and she told me she confessed. It mattered to her more than to me as I did not ever confess to anybody of our actions pre marriage.

Look, boys in my view will say or do anything to get sex. Women used to want to be loved. Now they seem to only want sex. Divorce has no negatives to far too many women. Those mothers teaching kids to have plenty of sex can't see way down the road to the almost endliess heart ache their own kids will suffer.

I speak out trying to pass out the message that sex is not a way to get respect. I learned the hard way it does not promote marrying wisely. Marriage is far more than sex.

and where on earth are you getting the idea that not having sex before you get married teaches you not to fool around after you are married??

That is not what I said. I said the fooling around teaches that one can dismiss marriage as a reason to be faithful. IT was okay before marriage so it remains ok is my claim. And women all over cheat. A lot of them cheat.

These days in CA, married women are not off limits. They grew up thinking between their legs and have not stopped.

Really, i am pretty sure they are off limits..... have you tried walking up to one on the street and asking if they want to screw you? Try it sometime and see if you are right or wrong about "that women are not off limits" thing

Your claim is not supported by the women I have met for many many years. One does not walk up to a stranger and talk that way. But boys learn by making mistakes. They poke a lot of pigs hoping for some decent bacon but the way it is today, when women won't demand high morals, the men sure won't. Men wanted loose women and now they have them. They got what they wanted so some of this is not the woman's fault. But women are some of the worst cheaters.

It was bad enough men were that way, now it is the women too.

sucks when women play the game same as men doesn't it?

That is why I speak as I do. I know the bad results.

Guys, women are sneaky now.

So let me get this straight, women are sneaky for cheating.... something in the past was a male dominated play ground? Doesn't them mean men have always been sneaky and proves out that they still are?

YES. A lot of women actually expect the husband to cheat. Sad state of affairs. I blame a lot of this on the pill. I recall how it was pre the pill and post the pill. I saw it all happen. When I speak against Plan B, it is only because I lived through the period of no pills then they came to market. I saw society going to hell. I think this society is terrible given they pick the wrong leaders.

Kids are active because the parents simply do not mind.

kids are active because their parents have no idea what their kids are up to.

They encourage those kids. Kids know what adults think. And for some odd reason, I am chatting with a person that actually approves kids doing this.

If parents won't control the kids in one area, they don't control them in much of their life. Kids must learn to hear no. But parents that don't know how to say no can't teach them much at all. Since you asked me a personal question, this has to be asked by me. Why did you raise kids to believe in loose sex? Or don't you have children?

Parents should help kids be better citizens, not join them and approve poor behavior.

Sex, what you do in the bedroom, when you do it, how often you do it, who you do it with..... have nothing to do with being a "good citizen"

AND have noting to do with planB being sold over the counter

Actually, were I to believe your lesson, kids can steal, and in general do what they want to do since apparently they have no boundaries to read the above words.

Plan B provides death to the innocent.

Robert A Whit

04-07-2013, 04:20 PM

There has been pre-marital sex and pre-marital pregnancy since there have been human beings. The existence of both today haven't a damned thing to do with the pill.

There has been a long history of stealing and even murder too. But why approve it?

Robert A Whit

04-07-2013, 04:22 PM

Times have changed greatly since I was a teen. Had I asked my mom or dad for condoms ,money to buy condoms at 13,14,15 ,16, 17 or even 18 my ass would have felt the answer!!!
No way in hell would I have asked. Of course with the kind of money parents just hand over to their teen children these days asking for money to purchase condoms is hardly required.Around here there are still machines that sell them in single packs in men's rooms.
Morning after pill is another story . Perhaps an age limit needs to be set, no younger than 16 years old may purchase without a prescription. And that is after I have already compromised from 18 down to 16..

Obama had to do this to follow his plan to damage society.

Missileman

04-07-2013, 04:23 PM

There has been a long history of stealing and even murder too. But why approve it?

How does my pointing out the fallacy of your contention constitute an endorsement of pre-marital sex?

Robert A Whit

04-07-2013, 04:25 PM

How does my pointing out the fallacy of your contention constitute an endorsement of pre-marital sex?

Well, you failed. So what is your point?

Missileman

04-07-2013, 04:35 PM

Well, you failed. So what is your point?

I already made my point. I'm hardly surprised it escaped you though.

Syrenn

04-07-2013, 05:34 PM

Times have changed greatly since I was a teen. Had I asked my mom or dad for condoms ,money to buy condoms at 13,14,15 ,16, 17 or even 18 my ass would have felt the answer!!!
No way in hell would I have asked. Of course with the kind of money parents just hand over to their teen children these days asking for money to purchase condoms is hardly required.Around here there are still machines that sell them in single packs in men's rooms.
Morning after pill is another story . Perhaps an age limit needs to be set, no younger than 16 years old may purchase without a prescription. And that is after I have already compromised from 18 down to 16..

i dont think times have changed all that much. I think if most teens asked their parents now a days for birth control... they will get the same reaction you did. Which is why teens do not turn to their parents for help or support when it comes to sex or sexual needs.

Syrenn

04-07-2013, 05:54 PM

Actually, were I to believe your lesson, kids can steal, and in general do what they want to do since apparently they have no boundaries to read the above words.

Plan B provides death to the innocent.

long story short...ill let you put it together.....

you are mixing biology... and morality (personal beliefs) totally seperate things

stealing is against the law... sex is not unless its an adult with and underage person. So your argument of "responsibility" not the same thing.

not sure what parents you are talking to.... but so far ive not met any parent who wants their children to have sex. There are possibly some out there who are using their children as entitlement money makers.... but other then them, i am not sure your ideas would bear out.

as for women taking the pill.... i think you need to talk to a few women about it. In my opinion you have some flawed thinking there....

divorce, sex..... all of this is your projection of your personal life. It has nothing at all to do with the op.

lmao.... no i do not want teens to have sex. I want teens to have access to birth control if that is what they are going to do. What i want has no bearing on what they do... just as your does not.

i suggest you get some therapy about your sex life and divorces. You seem to have issues with them.

if my claims do not bear out with the women you have met... maybe its the women you meet. And you track record with them.... well.

again.... i have never met a women who expects her husband or boyfriend to cheat. And... you blame the pill for men cheating on their wives???

i never said kids can steal....

planB is birth control...i really dont care if pro lifers think its "death" since in my opinion it is not a life of its own to begin with.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

04-07-2013, 06:04 PM

Obama had to do this to follow his plan to damage society.

That actually makes sense as long as one knows what obama really wants to do. Bring America down!

Trinity

04-07-2013, 06:27 PM

Robert A Whit

04-07-2013, 07:07 PM

Robert A Whit

04-07-2013, 07:16 PM

long story short...ill let you put it together.....

you are mixing biology... and morality (personal beliefs) totally seperate things

stealing is against the law... sex is not unless its an adult with and underage person. So your argument of "responsibility" not the same thing.

not sure what parents you are talking to.... but so far ive not met any parent who wants their children to have sex. There are possibly some out there who are using their children as entitlement money makers.... but other then them, i am not sure your ideas would bear out.

as for women taking the pill.... i think you need to talk to a few women about it. In my opinion you have some flawed thinking there....

divorce, sex..... all of this is your projection of your personal life. It has nothing at all to do with the op.

lmao.... no i do not want teens to have sex. I want teens to have access to birth control if that is what they are going to do. What i want has no bearing on what they do... just as your does not.

i suggest you get some therapy about your sex life and divorces. You seem to have issues with them.

if my claims do not bear out with the women you have met... maybe its the women you meet. And you track record with them.... well.

again.... i have never met a women who expects her husband or boyfriend to cheat. And... you blame the pill for men cheating on their wives???

i never said kids can steal....

planB is birth control...i really dont care if pro lifers think its "death" since in my opinion it is not a life of its own to begin with.

You are ignoring the purpose of law. You are ignoring that my motive is to give teens protection. By not having sex, provided parents actually teach this to kids, the kids avoid plan B. They avoid the labels. I don't understand your need for children to have sex.
Why ot have them steal. Biologically it makes sense. At least they do need to eat. I am not so cavalier about the life of the innocent. You support therapy for me yet you don't support thearapy for those children who thnk of sex as some soet of game?

At my age, I am about to admit the chance of finding a woman not a tramp is pretty slim. They need therapy to cure why they feel like an open door policy is how they are.

logroller

04-07-2013, 07:21 PM

There has been a long history of stealing and even murder too. But why approve it?please explain the similarities between killing and having sex? Otherwise, that's a strawman.

Robert A Whit

04-07-2013, 07:38 PM

please explain the similarities between killing and having sex? Otherwise, that's a strawman.

Oh, do you also approve children having sex?

Kathianne

04-07-2013, 07:50 PM

throwing this out only because I have not seen anything about it yet.....

so what if an underage girl, we'll say 15 or 16 (for argument sake) is responsible and insists the male wear a condom because she is trying to be safe and responsible, and not get pregnant or an STD.

while having sex, the condom breaks, which does actually happen.....then what?

Well there you go. Shazzam! It happens. Luckily for me no STD, but my daughter is here due to a broken condom. Not a problem though, we were already talking about kids and married. Probably would have only waited a few more months to see Europe. That was the plan, cut a bit short. Glad for her, my darling daughter though.

Moral, even mature married folks can have problems with condoms or any type of birth control, save vasectomies, which I highly recommend when women are finished with bearing children.

logroller

04-08-2013, 12:17 AM

Oh, do you also approve children having sex?
I'll take that to mean you can't answer my question and it was a strawman argument; just as i thought. Regardless of whether I approve of it, minors do have sex.

Syrenn

04-08-2013, 01:06 AM

You are ignoring the purpose of law. You are ignoring that my motive is to give teens protection. By not having sex, provided parents actually teach this to kids, the kids avoid plan B. They avoid the labels. I don't understand your need for children to have sex.
Why ot have them steal. Biologically it makes sense. At least they do need to eat. I am not so cavalier about the life of the innocent. You support therapy for me yet you don't support thearapy for those children who thnk of sex as some soet of game?

At my age, I am about to admit the chance of finding a woman not a tramp is pretty slim. They need therapy to cure why they feel like an open door policy is how they are.

no..i do not subscribe to your opinion of what the law is about or your motives...its called we dissagree.

Were do i EVER say that parents should NOT teach their children to NOT have sex?

again.. your analogy of kids stealing is a straw man.

No, you are cavalier in your officiousness of deciding what women can and can not do with their bodies. And considering your opinion about condoms... i would think you would be all for planB being available.

i think you needed to change your taste in women if all you ended up with was tramps. Its still not to late. Yes, you do seem bitter about your lot in life in this area... and therapy may help.

And again i ask you.... did you have sex with the women before you married them? You seem to pointedly skip over that question.

Missileman

04-08-2013, 06:12 AM

did you have sex with the women before you married them? You seem to pointedly skip over that question.

That, in a nutshell, seems to be the difference in how teens and young adults are treating sex today. It USED to be pre-marital sex, as in the couple having sex would wind up married to each other. No harm, no foul.

taft2012

04-08-2013, 06:31 AM

The order overturned a 2011 decision by Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius to require a prescription for girls under 17.

The FDA said it couldn't comment because it is an ongoing legal matter.

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists recommended last year that oral contraceptives be sold over the counter in an effort to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies in the United States. Opponents of prescription requirements say prescriptions can delay access to the drug.

In 2011, Teva Women's Health Inc., maker of Plan B One-Step, had asked the FDA to make the drug available without prescription to all sexually active girls and women. Sebelius overruled the FDA's recommendation, saying, "I do not believe enough data were presented to support the application."

On Friday, U.S. District Court Judge Edward Korman said, "The decisions of the Secretary with respect to Plan B One-Step and that of the FDA with respect to the Citizen Petition, which it had no choice but to deny, were arbitrary, capricious, and unreasonable."

Uh, no.

The fact is, having sexual intercourse with a female under 17 years of age is a crime in New York State.

If requiring a prescription at this age is "arbitrary, capricious, and unreasonable".... then so are the laws of sexual consent ages.

Which, to an extent they are "arbitrary" and "capricious"... however, every state legislature has set those laws at an age they deem appropriate. Nothing new there.

In addition to a prescription, a criminal incident report should also be required.

taft2012

04-08-2013, 06:38 AM

Trinity

04-08-2013, 06:13 PM

You are ignoring the purpose of law. You are ignoring that my motive is to give teens protection. By not having sex, provided parents actually teach this to kids, the kids avoid plan B. They avoid the labels. I don't understand your need for children to have sex.
Why ot have them steal. Biologically it makes sense. At least they do need to eat. I am not so cavalier about the life of the innocent. You support therapy for me yet you don't support thearapy for those children who thnk of sex as some soet of game?

At my age, I am about to admit the chance of finding a woman not a tramp is pretty slim. They need therapy to cure why they feel like an open door policy is how they are.

Let's back track for a minute.... recall the post I made about the 50 or so teenagers I know personally....out of those 50 ranging in age of 15 to 18 there was only one that was a virgin. And she didn't stay that way for long because all of her friends were doing it so she thought maybe she was missing out on something, so decided to have sex with some guy friend just to see what it was like...hmmmm

and about half of these kids after talking to them about how their parents raised them and what they taught them in regards to sex...their parents did raise them to wait until the were older or married....or their parents never discussed the subject with them at all....

I have taught my boys from a very young age they should wait till the are married or in a committed relationship. Did my oldest wait? No he did not...why because all of his friends were doing it.

The biggest problem I see is not necessarily that parents aren't teaching their kids to wait and refrain from having sex some of them are....it's more along the lines of parents who put on their blinders and think their teen would never do something like that.

And the parents who never talk to their kids about sex and relationships have kids who tend to watch things like Jersey shore and teen mom...etc. etc.....where it is glorified.

Peer pressure does a teen in every time. :cool:

aboutime

04-08-2013, 06:22 PM

Let's see a show of hands, from EVERY MEMBER of this forum.

Raise your hand IF.....you were ever a teenager who had thoughts about the opposite sex...AT LEAST ONCE.

If you don't raise your hand (and nobody else can see it) You are lying to yourself as well.

Robert A Whit

04-08-2013, 06:31 PM

Let's back track for a minute.... recall the post I made about the 50 or so teenagers I know personally....out of those 50 ranging in age of 15 to 18 there was only one that was a virgin. And she didn't stay that way for long because all of her friends were doing it so she thought maybe she was missing out on something, so decided to have sex with some guy friend just to see what it was like...hmmmm

and about half of these kids after talking to them about how their parents raised them and what they taught them in regards to sex...their parents did raise them to wait until the were older or married....or their parents never discussed the subject with them at all....

I have taught my boys from a very young age they should wait till the are married or in a committed relationship. Did my oldest wait? No he did not...why because all of his friends were doing it.

The biggest problem I see is not necessarily that parents aren't teaching their kids to wait and refrain from having sex some of them are....it's more along the lines of parents who put on their blinders and think their teen would never do something like that.

And the parents who never talk to their kids about sex and relationships have kids who tend to watch things like Jersey shore and teen mom...etc. etc.....where it is glorified.

Peer pressure does a teen in every time. :cool:

Mom had me scared. She used to tell me, if you sleep with the girl, be prepared to call her your wife.

I see to many parents sort of like this parent i will describe.

Roger was born to a man who was going to become a multimillionaire. As a guy of about 19, when I met him, he did not know what not being able to get what he wanted was like.

His parents agreed to buy him a new Corvette by Chevrolet. Roger came to me to have me remove the brand new engine and put in the much more powerful engine he brought to me. The car was super fast.

It did not take long and Roger wrecked the new car.

Roger of course wanted another new one. It was insured anyway.

I sat in the dining area of the home and heard his mom tell Roger,

Roger, I should go buy a super powerful Corvette and drive it around so you can be the one worrying about me for a change.

My Mom would have told me, you knew the car was dangerous and you wrecked it. What we as your parents will agree to is you get to ride a bicycle.

I see parents acting as if kids having sex is a no big deal. And i get told stories of kids are in the learning phase being treated as if them having sex is just fine. If not fine, parents can't stop them. When parents try, this can just change things. Maybe we can get back to the days of men respecting women and women being the keepers of family morals. But I can tell you, if this was 1950, moms did not talk this way. They told the boys to respect girls and the girls put down their feet. Not 100 percent of them, but most of them.

Till Adults resuming raising kids, peers will raise them.

Syrenn

04-08-2013, 06:35 PM

Syrenn

04-08-2013, 06:47 PM

Mom had me scared. She used to tell me, if you sleep with the girl, be prepared to call her your wife.

I see to many parents sort of like this parent i will describe.

Roger was born to a man who was going to become a multimillionaire. As a guy of about 19, when I met him, he did not know what not being able to get what he wanted was like.

His parents agreed to buy him a new Corvette by Chevrolet. Roger came to me to have me remove the brand new engine and put in the much more powerful engine he brought to me. The car was super fast.

It did not take long and Roger wrecked the new car.

Roger of course wanted another new one. It was insured anyway.

I sat in the dining area of the home and heard his mom tell Roger,

Roger, I should go buy a super powerful Corvette and drive it around so you can be the one worrying about me for a change.

My Mom would have told me, you knew the car was dangerous and you wrecked it. What we as your parents will agree to is you get to ride a bicycle.

I see parents acting as if kids having sex is a no big deal. And i get told stories of kids are in the learning phase being treated as if them having sex is just fine. If not fine, parents can't stop them. When parents try, this can just change things. Maybe we can get back to the days of men respecting women and women being the keepers of family morals. But I can tell you, if this was 1950, moms did not talk this way. They told the boys to respect girls and the girls put down their feet. Not 100 percent of them, but most of them.

Till Adults resuming raising kids, peers will raise them.

for everyone of those girls you seem to look down on for not putting down their feet... there was a boy just as guilty..... Your double standard is pretty flat.

As for men respecting women....the way i read you....you also say that all men cheat and women should just accept that.

Since teens will do what teens do.... regardless of what parents teach or want... i would still prefer to have them have access to birth control.