Plane crash - so did thread

[Marcus Aurelius]

NEVER do pilots put on FULL FLAPS to take off. Great way to crash.

If one is flying level, and puts on full flaps, the purpose is to slow down. Also, full flaps cause the airplane to lift a few feet up.

The take off was so steep that either the pilot tried to kill himself or something else happened, such as control failure.

Just curious... where and when did you get your pilots license?

[aboutime]

Just curious... where and when did you get your pilots license?


Marcus. WAIT FOR IT.

WAIT FOR IT.......

I found no license was needed for him. His ID for MENSA says it all....4925. Able to Leap piles of crap in a single bound.

[Marcus Aurelius]

NEVER do pilots put on FULL FLAPS to take off. Great way to crash.

Really? These guys disagree with your 'never' comment.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/225094/


Mostly conjecture here, but I don't see any particular reason why it wouldn't be able to. You wouldn't achieve any spectacular climb rates, and it'd take quite a bit more thrust than normal - you've added a lot of drag at full flaps.


Well, I can tell you that it most definitely can be done in a Cessna 172.
A 'friend of mine' was doing touch-and-goes, and forgot to put the flaps up before taking off again. It was quite a weird feeling "so he said"


It can be done of course. This is assuming the plane has multi-position flaps of course. (There are some airplanes like the F-15, and I think the B-52, which only have <acronym title="Bahamasair">UP</acronym> or DOWN positions, so obviously they can)


Takeoff speed would be lower, acceleration wouldn't be good and climb performance would probably be affected quite a bit. I don't know what it would do to take-off run... I would think it would shorten it, although I don't know how much, if it did.

It is certainly not the norm, but 'never' is simply incorrect.

[aboutime]

Really? These guys disagree with your 'never' comment.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/225094/



[FONT=Verdana,Helvetica,Arial][SIZE=-1][FONT=ARIAL,][SIZE=2]





It is certainly not the norm, but 'never' is simply incorrect.


Marcus. I intentionally didn't respond to him on the FLAPS issue. I didn't want another Pissing Contest to start, and find it's way into the STEEL CAGE, where most of his threads end up.
Sometimes. I just wish I could say something here, and not be challenged by the LAST PERSON I wished to be challenged by, or instigated into another argument.
Seems like any topic becomes a lost cause, or an argument.

EVEN IF he has a pilot's license. I'm almost certain. He's never flown a 747.

[Robert A Whit]

Just curious... where and when did you get your pilots license?

Trained in Hayward Ca. FAA flight inspector awarded me pilots license in 1980. Handed to me by the flight inspector the same day he approved me, in San Jose, CA.

Stall recognition is drummed into pilots. FAA mandates this. Check rides keep pilots current in stalls.

[Robert A Whit]

Really? These guys disagree with your 'never' comment.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/225094/









It is certainly not the norm, but 'never' is simply incorrect.

Interesting that none of them claimed they take off with full flaps.

As to what AT complains about, to make this clear, should he comment about ships, I say nothing. I happen to be a pilot and understand this.

As several of them stated, it slows down the airplane which is not what pilots want to happen in taking off. We take off using full throttle.

We land using full flaps in most cases.

What you suggest is like taking off from at a green light in your car while you also step on the brakes.

Maybe that makes sense to you.

Most pilots I know have made errors at times using flaps.

A very good example is in touch and goes. You land using flaps. Pilots at times accidently pull off the flaps as they hit the throttle. Too near the runway and you chance crashing.

While I have never flown a 747, I fail to see the logic in that since they all fly the same way.

Notice in the video, we could not tell for sure if the plane had flaps extended or the flaps were taken back.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Marcus. I intentionally didn't respond to him on the FLAPS issue. I didn't want another Pissing Contest to start, and find it's way into the STEEL CAGE, where most of his threads end up.
Sometimes. I just wish I could say something here, and not be challenged by the LAST PERSON I wished to be challenged by, or instigated into another argument.
Seems like any topic becomes a lost cause, or an argument.

EVEN IF he has a pilot's license. I'm almost certain. He's never flown a 747.

if he had ever been a pilot, he'd not have goofed and said 'never' are full flaps used on takeoff.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Interesting that none of them claimed they take off with full flaps.
.

Even more interesting is the fact you failed to look at the question being answered from the linked page....


Hi, guys. I question somewhat regarding takeoff performance on airliners and how it can be affected. In theory, if a plane had to, could it take off with the flaps fully down? I tested on FSX in a 747 at Edwards, and it took nearly the whole runway, all seven miles of it. Is there a plane that could within the length of the runway, though? Thanks for any info.

read... then post, Robert.

[aboutime]

if he had ever been a pilot, he'd not have goofed and said 'never' are full flaps used on takeoff.


I agree. But now. Look at how he has claimed that I was complaining? About what? Only he knows.
Gotta keep my wits (pardon the pun) about me, and continue to avoid responding to him.


One more aspect of this thread is. I only watched the video like everyone else. We were not there at the accident site. Robert wasn't there either.
So...why must I, or anyone else listen to someone who pretends to be everything, and know all about so much of nothing?

[Robert A Whit]

I hope AT is having fun making up things to say. First he acts as if his feelings got hurt by a pilot explaining something. I really don't care if two posters accept this or not. I was trained to fly and fly well.

[Marcus Aurelius]

While I have never flown a 747, I fail to see the logic in that since they all fly the same way.



No real pilot would say something that stupid. By your logic, a Cessna pilot can fly a Antonov An-225, because 'they all fly the same way'.

Quit while you're behind, Robert.

[Robert A Whit]

Even more interesting is the fact you failed to look at the question being answered from the linked page....


read... then post, Robert.

Nobody said it is impossible. But just as you can hit the gas as you also apply brakes to your car, it is stupid to try that.

We have one condition where one may use flaps to take off and that is a very short field take off.

I read every word people post by the way. I would NEVER apply full flaps in any take off.

Why is this the topic? Do you have proof that 747 had flaps on when taking off?

Seems to me the video does not prove that.

AT tried to claim we pilots put on full flaps to take off. All he has to do is prove it.

I would love to see his claims proven on the 747.

[Robert A Whit]

No real pilot would say something that stupid. By your logic, a Cessna pilot can fly a Antonov An-225, because 'they all fly the same way'.

Quit while you're behind, Robert.

You can't get away pulling that trick. I did not claim all pilots can fly all airplanes.

A trained Cessna pilot would agree with me and not you.

[aboutime]

You can't get away pulling that trick. I did not claim all pilots can fly all airplanes.

A trained Cessna pilot would agree with me and not you.


Robert. I am breaking my own rules here to tell you. "Nobody gives a crap about anything you have said here!"

As someone senior to me, and almost everyone else on this forum.

Do you ever know when to just SHUT UP?

[jimnyc]

Can we all get back on to the topic and worry less about Robert's credentials.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Nobody said it is impossible. But just as you can hit the gas as you also apply brakes to your car, it is stupid to try that.

We have one condition where one may use flaps to take off and that is a very short field take off.

I read every word people post by the way. I would NEVER apply full flaps in any take off.

Why is this the topic? Do you have proof that 747 had flaps on when taking off?

Seems to me the video does not prove that.

AT tried to claim we pilots put on full flaps to take off. All he has to do is prove it.

I would love to see his claims proven on the 747.

i love how you whine that everyone else has to post proof, but YOU never are required to.

Moving the goalposts on this post, Robert.. just like you always fo when you're nailed and can't find your way out.


NEVER do pilots put on FULL FLAPS to take off. Great way to crash.

No one, not even me, said it was impossible. YOU claimed it is NEVER done...ever. I proved you wrong, and you simply cannot accept having been proven wrong. For once on this board, admit you were wrong. Be a man.

[Robert A Whit]

Hi, guys. I question somewhat regarding takeoff performance on airliners and how it can be affected. In theory, if a plane had to, could it take off with the flaps fully down? I tested on FSX in a 747 at Edwards, and it took nearly the whole runway, all seven miles of it. Is there a plane that could within the length of the runway, though? Thanks for any info.

First, that 747 did not look as if it took 7 miles of runway. The runway reported was around 11,000 feet which is sufficient for the 747. Can you take off with full flaps?

Dumb pilots might.

Since you question me so much Marcus, tell us when you got a pilots license and where?

What qualifies you to talk to this topic?

Same question to AT who pronounced we take off using full flaps.

You can walk with heavy rocks tied to your ankles. Do you do that?

We are trained to take off with zero flaps.

Flaps are brakes. Do you two get it yet?

[Marcus Aurelius]

Can we all get back on to the topic and worry less about Robert's credentials.

I am on topic, Jim. Robert made a comment regarding Full Flaps on takeoff, I proved him wrong. All related to a possible cause or contributory factor of the crash in the OP.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Since you question me so much Marcus, tell us when you got a pilots license and where?

What qualifies you to talk to this topic?

I have no pilots license, and never claimed or implied iI was an 'expert'. I have the greatest tool known to man... GOOGLE, and I know how to use it to find things. Things that I post as evidence to back up my posts here. You should try it sometime.

[jimnyc]

I am on topic, Jim. Robert made a comment regarding Full Flaps on takeoff, I proved him wrong. All related to a possible cause or contributory factor of the crash in the OP.

But a single inquiry should be sufficient. Instead, a handful of members who we all know take issue with one another, are in the midst of another "back and forth" which really does no more than kill a thread and create drama and work for us.

[Marcus Aurelius]

But a single inquiry should be sufficient. Instead, a handful of members who we all know take issue with one another, are in the midst of another "back and forth" which really does no more than kill a thread and create drama and work for us.

true enough.

[Robert A Whit]

But a single inquiry should be sufficient. Instead, a handful of members who we all know take issue with one another, are in the midst of another "back and forth" which really does no more than kill a thread and create drama and work for us.

I said I am a pilot. Rather than simply accept that at face value, he and AT turned it into a pissing match.

I like to explain in terms that do just that but do not abuse other posters. His constant calling me a liar is much abuse. Nobody needs to read his posts called lies all day long as Marcus always does.

Nobody wants posters to mention feces that posters are full of, only using vulgarity i was under the belief that vulgarity is to be found only in the cage.

When he asked, I replied where and when I got my license.

I had said NEVER on taking off with flaps and feel I should have said FULL FLAPS as did AT I believe.

If AT speaks of ships and how the work, I evade trying to claim he is wrong. His forte is NAVY. I respect the knowledge of navy vets. But he does not appear to respect the voice of a pilot.

I also amended my claim to be about short field take offs.

There we did use some flaps to aid lift since we had to get off the ground quickly.

Why bother then and not normally?

We want as much take off speed as we can get. Short field take offs are at just over stall speed and the idea is not speed so much as it is getting off the ground faster. Such as in soft fields or other places where you have a short runway or maybe a dirt road in some cases.

[jimnyc]

I said I am a pilot. Rather than simply accept that at face value, he and AT turned it into a pissing match.

I like to explain in terms that do just that but do not abuse other posters. His constant calling me a liar is much abuse. Nobody needs to read his posts called lies all day long as Marcus always does.

Nobody wants posters to mention feces that posters are full of, only using vulgarity i was under the belief that vulgarity is to be found only in the cage.

When he asked, I replied where and when I got my license.

I had said NEVER on taking off with flaps and feel I should have said FULL FLAPS as did AT I believe.

If AT speaks of ships and how the work, I evade trying to claim he is wrong. His forte is NAVY. I respect the knowledge of navy vets. But he does not appear to respect the voice of a pilot.

I also amended my claim to be about short field take offs.

There we did use some flaps to aid lift since we had to get off the ground quickly.

Why bother then and not normally?

We want as much take off speed as we can get. Short field take offs are at just over stall speed and the idea is not speed so much as it is getting off the ground faster. Such as in soft fields or other places where you have a short runway or maybe a dirt road in some cases.

STFU already. All 3 of you were removed from the thread, but please don't act innocent. You are right in the midst of it, with people you claim you have issues with, once again engaging them and doing the back and forth.

[aboutime]

But a single inquiry should be sufficient. Instead, a handful of members who we all know take issue with one another, are in the midst of another "back and forth" which really does no more than kill a thread and create drama and work for us.


jimnyc. There really IS an answer to all of this. As a member who has tried my best to stay on topic, and deal with threads by staying on point. I hope you can now see.
No matter what topic comes up, anywhere these days. No matter what I may say about the topic, or to other members INSTANTLY becomes an argument, disagreement, insult, slur, stab, swipe, whine, threat, or just plain nonsense because I ANSWERED.
I have followed your suggestions...TO THE LETTER several times, using the IGNORE feature. But to no avail because of a member who simply refuses to allow anything I say to stand...without disagreement, or argument.

If I say something is WHITE. I am corrected and told I am wrong...because something has to be BLACK according to said member.
If I would provide personal information of my own. No doubt. Robert would either disagree, or correct me, or anyone else who DARES to say anything without ROBERT'S Permission, or Authorization.
The fun of coming here has become a challenge. Wondering how long threads last before YOU send them to the CAGE, and destroy everything presented in sincere, civil ways. Only to be destroyed by Robert.
Call this Whining....as Robert will obviously do. But Holy Cow Jim. How much more of this instant BS are you willing to allow????

[jimnyc]

true enough.

Thank you. And trust me, you know I hate having to get involved. But when an admin is closing his own thread and calling it a waste, it's proof that things need to be reeled in. I thought it was a fair as deal as possible to allow people to speak up and do whatever in this section, the steel cage, but to please leave the fighting out of the debate and good threads. I still think it's a good deal.

[Robert A Whit]

jimnyc. There really IS an answer to all of this. As a member who has tried my best to stay on topic, and deal with threads by staying on point. I hope you can now see.
No matter what topic comes up, anywhere these days. No matter what I may say about the topic, or to other members INSTANTLY becomes an argument, disagreement, insult, slur, stab, swipe, whine, threat, or just plain nonsense because I ANSWERED.
I have followed your suggestions...TO THE LETTER several times, using the IGNORE feature. But to no avail because of a member who simply refuses to allow anything I say to stand...without disagreement, or argument.

If I say something is WHITE. I am corrected and told I am wrong...because something has to be BLACK according to said member.
If I would provide personal information of my own. No doubt. Robert would either disagree, or correct me, or anyone else who DARES to say anything without ROBERT'S Permission, or Authorization.
The fun of coming here has become a challenge. Wondering how long threads last before YOU send them to the CAGE, and destroy everything presented in sincere, civil ways. Only to be destroyed by Robert.
Call this Whining....as Robert will obviously do. But Holy Cow Jim. How much more of this instant BS are you willing to allow????

So sorry.

I forgot you are always 100 percent correct. no matter the topic, you and only you are 100 percent correct.

When you stated as fact we pilots use full flaps to take off, somebody who knows better had to speak up.

As the pilot on the forum, it turns out it was me.

[Marcus Aurelius]

It IS Jim's board. If he wants to allow the senile old fart to feel important and relevant, well, that's Jim's prerogative.

[Marcus Aurelius]

So sorry.

I forgot you are always 100 percent correct. no matter the topic, you and only you are 100 percent correct.

When you stated as fact we pilots use full flaps to take off, somebody who knows better had to speak up.

As the pilot on the forum, it turns out it was me.

The closest you ever got to a cockpit was when you mistakenly tried to enter one thinking it was the bathroom.

[jimnyc]

jimnyc. There really IS an answer to all of this. As a member who has tried my best to stay on topic, and deal with threads by staying on point. I hope you can now see.
No matter what topic comes up, anywhere these days. No matter what I may say about the topic, or to other members INSTANTLY becomes an argument, disagreement, insult, slur, stab, swipe, whine, threat, or just plain nonsense because I ANSWERED.
I have followed your suggestions...TO THE LETTER several times, using the IGNORE feature. But to no avail because of a member who simply refuses to allow anything I say to stand...without disagreement, or argument.

If I say something is WHITE. I am corrected and told I am wrong...because something has to be BLACK according to said member.
If I would provide personal information of my own. No doubt. Robert would either disagree, or correct me, or anyone else who DARES to say anything without ROBERT'S Permission, or Authorization.
The fun of coming here has become a challenge. Wondering how long threads last before YOU send them to the CAGE, and destroy everything presented in sincere, civil ways. Only to be destroyed by Robert.
Call this Whining....as Robert will obviously do. But Holy Cow Jim. How much more of this instant BS are you willing to allow????

If you really did use the ignore feature, you wouldn't see his posts at all, and the same way with him in return. I see some more guilty than others, but no one who is fully innocent. If everyone involved used the ignore feature, and a little self control for when mutual friends may quote them, 99% of the issues go away. That's the one thing that no one seems willing to do - but everyone is willing to want Jim to be the bad guy and intervene and ban people.

[Robert A Whit]

The closest you ever got to a cockpit was when you mistakenly tried to enter one thinking it was the bathroom.

Liar.


My first few hours training was in the Piper Tomahawk, a low power 2 place aircraft, Wanting to take my kid along with the flight instructor, I upgraded to the Piper Warrior, a 4 place airplane.

I then upgraded to the Piper Archer a bit faster with the same body configuration.

I also have hours as a pilot of the Mooney 201, though i did not finish all 5 hours to be current in that airplane.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Liar.


My first few hours training was in the Piper Tomahawk, a low power 2 place aircraft, Wanting to take my kid along with the flight instructor, I upgraded to the Piper Warrior, a 4 place airplane.

I then upgraded to the Piper Archer a bit faster with the same body configuration.

I also have hours as a pilot of the Mooney 201, though i did not finish all 5 hours to be current in that airplane.

right... and you flew the space shuttle too, huh :laugh:

[Robert A Whit]

right... and you flew the space shuttle too, huh :laugh:

Nope. In Florida at the Kennedy space center is a mock up shuttle on the ground. I have spent some time looking inside that.

[aboutime]

If you really did use the ignore feature, you wouldn't see his posts at all, and the same way with him in return. I see some more guilty than others, but no one who is fully innocent. If everyone involved used the ignore feature, and a little self control for when mutual friends may quote them, 99% of the issues go away. That's the one thing that no one seems willing to do - but everyone is willing to want Jim to be the bad guy and intervene and ban people.


Never mind. You seem to have trouble understanding what I type as well. Forget it.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Nope. In Florida at the Kennedy space center is a mock up shuttle on the ground. I have spent some time looking inside that.

wow... you saw the inside of a poorly detailed shuttle mockup. Color me completely unimpressed.

[Robert A Whit]

At the moment, I put two posters on ignore. Do not expect me to reply back to you.

[Kathianne]

If you really did use the ignore feature, you wouldn't see his posts at all, and the same way with him in return. I see some more guilty than others, but no one who is fully innocent. If everyone involved used the ignore feature, and a little self control for when mutual friends may quote them, 99% of the issues go away. That's the one thing that no one seems willing to do - but everyone is willing to want Jim to be the bad guy and intervene and ban people.

Actually Jim, I think AT is doing the same as myself. Whether ignoring Robert's post through ignore status or attempting to ignore, the responses bear reading. There in is the problem, he continues to post his lies, drivel, and C-span videos.

[Marcus Aurelius]

At the moment, I put two posters on ignore. Do not expect me to reply back to you.

You're like Jahil. You can't help yourself.

[Robert A Whit]

Actually Jim, I think AT is doing the same as myself. Whether ignoring Robert's post through ignore status or attempting to ignore, the responses bear reading. There in is the problem, he continues to post his lies, drivel, and C-span videos.

You just did it again. So you are now the other one ignored. I am so sick of the stuff you claim, none is true.

[Marcus Aurelius]

You just did it again. So you are now the other one ignored. I am so sick of the stuff you claim, none is true.

I am so sick of the stuff you claim, none is true.

[aboutime]

I am so sick of the stuff you claim, none is true.


Marcus. Can you hear it? Have you noticed how QUIET it has become today?

Silence is Golden.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Marcus. Can you hear it? Have you noticed how QUIET it has become today?

Silence is Golden.

aneurism?

[aboutime]

aneurism?


:clap::laugh:

[NightTrain]

First, that 747 did not look as if it took 7 miles of runway. The runway reported was around 11,000 feet which is sufficient for the 747. Can you take off with full flaps?

Dumb pilots might.

Since you question me so much Marcus, tell us when you got a pilots license and where?

What qualifies you to talk to this topic?

Same question to AT who pronounced we take off using full flaps.

You can walk with heavy rocks tied to your ankles. Do you do that?

We are trained to take off with zero flaps.

Flaps are brakes. Do you two get it yet?

I spend a great deal of time flying around Alaska in both fixed wing and helicopters.

I took Commerical Aviation at UAA in '92 & '93, I passed my private, commercial and IFR tests, but I am not a pilot - I ran out of money and never returned to finish it, which I regret, but life happens.

However, I do understand the fundamentals and physics of flight and I have enough experience piloting planes to recognize that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Flaps increase the lift of the wings, which is mighty handy when you're trying to take off.

Flaps help an aircraft get airborne faster, due to increased lift, at a lower airspeed than if you had no flaps - your climb rate would suffer due to increased drag until you raised them, which is why when you're airborne and at a better speed, you reduce them until you are at zero flaps.

Calling flaps 'brakes' is silly. Yes, they increase drag dramatically but their primary function is to increase lift of the wings and allow both takeoff and landing at lower speeds.

I think you are confused with speedbrakes, which do not provide lift but dramatically increase drag which slows an aircraft down. Surely you're not talking about spoilers which decrease lift... but with you, I'm not sure.

To say an aircraft doesn't utilize flaps on takeoff is completely preposterous.

There have been thousands of mishaps worldwide due to a pilot's miscalculation of how much flap to apply given the weight of the aircraft, loading of the aircraft, wind, altitude, temperature, length of runway, runway terrain, etc.

I can't think of an aircraft ever made that isn't more than capable of taking off with full flaps - they are designed to maximize lift for that aircraft to get it airborne in the shortest distance possible.


Stop with pretending you know half of what you claim to.

I know, I know... that's not going to happen. Start researching the shit you want to be an expert on, before posting here with your insane bullshit.

5 minutes on Google would have saved you from looking like a complete idiot in this thread. My 9 year old son knows more about aerodynamics from me teaching him with our RC airplanes and helicopters than you do, and that's a fact.

P.S. You're still an asshole.

[Robert A Whit]

I spend a great deal of time flying around Alaska in both fixed wing and helicopters.

I took Commerical Aviation at UAA in '92 & '93, I passed my private, commercial and IFR tests, but I am not a pilot - I ran out of money and never returned to finish it, which I regret, but life happens.

However, I do understand the fundamentals and physics of flight and I have enough experience piloting planes to recognize that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Flaps increase the lift of the wings, which is mighty handy when you're trying to take off.

Flaps help an aircraft get airborne faster, due to increased lift, at a lower airspeed than if you had no flaps - your climb rate would suffer due to increased drag until you raised them, which is why when you're airborne and at a better speed, you reduce them until you are at zero flaps.

Calling flaps 'brakes' is silly. Yes, they increase drag dramatically but their primary function is to increase lift of the wings and allow both takeoff and landing at lower speeds.

I think you are confused with speedbrakes, which do not provide lift but dramatically increase drag which slows an aircraft down. Surely you're not talking about spoilers which decrease lift... but with you, I'm not sure.

To say an aircraft doesn't utilize flaps on takeoff is completely preposterous.

There have been thousands of mishaps worldwide due to a pilot's miscalculation of how much flap to apply given the weight of the aircraft, loading of the aircraft, wind, altitude, temperature, length of runway, runway terrain, etc.

I can't think of an aircraft ever made that isn't more than capable of taking off with full flaps - they are designed to maximize lift for that aircraft to get it airborne in the shortest distance possible.


Stop with pretending you know half of what you claim to.

I know, I know... that's not going to happen. Start researching the shit you want to be an expert on, before posting here with your insane bullshit.

5 minutes on Google would have saved you from looking like a complete idiot in this thread. My 9 year old son knows more about aerodynamics from me teaching him with our RC airplanes and helicopters than you do, and that's a fact.

P.S. You're still an asshole.

Nope, I am reading a message by one.

By the way, you also made an absolute statement that is flat out wrong. Why would your mistake be better than mine? The claim I am no pilot and know nothing about flying? You have no license. I do.


Robert
For what it is worth, I noticed your opening slash and burn and your insult at the bottom, so much of my reply is without reading all of your post. I finally read all of it so forgive the fact that in places I agree with you. I am sure you tried to make good use of Google.

While you tried, I actually accomplished my goal to be a private pilot.

While Flaps do increase lift, what you forgot to mention is they also greatly increase drag. Which is why when landing, we put on flaps to slow down. Yes, a bit more liff is there, but there is that penalty known as drag.

I have a license. i don't need google.

Another point is that I do not fly commercial. And you apparently passed the ground tests.

I have flown IFR with the instructor with me plus passed that part of the IFR test as a pilot.

WTF is your problem buster.

You act like i insulted your mother. I simply was trying to make the point that the 747 that crashed in Afghanistan did not crash because some dumb pilot put on full flaps.

You act like an air-head to make this such a big deal. I got rid of Marcus and AT so far as seeing them. Since you have this irrational hate, even for Bush supporters and republican supporters, why not put me on ignore?

Finally, I mentioned short field take offs.

I am aware that commercial aircraft can deploy a minimum of flaps on take off but tell me, with 11,000 long runways, why bother?

FAA issued me a license in 1980. I trained a lot of hours.

Some of my training included mountain flying.

I really don't understand the rush to bash me since this is simply a matter of I jumped the gun too much by saying NEVER.

When I take off, I do not put on flaps.

I do however put on flaps to land.

The issue is over take offs.

OK, now that I read all of your comments

As we both say, you get both lift and drag.

As to commercial.

Since I have not flown a jet airplane or twins or heavy airplanes, I know that I do not put on flaps to take off except for two times. I apply flaps should I be on a soft field or a short field. While you get more left, the airplane also has to overcome drag. I was not trained to put on flaps to take off but in those 2 cases. Flaps make great brakes. If you had been a pilot, you would have learned to use them to slow down. But since you read Google, you may not know of their use as brakes.

I can say more but I think I fairly well covered it.

What is it with you clowns? Do I take shots at your area of expertise? You don't know this but I once worked for Pacific Bell telephone in 1957/8 for about 14-15 months. I don't rush to get into your face over telecommunications and blat that one can use google to say what you say?

Talk about ass hats.

[NightTrain]

Nope, I am reading a message by one.


Good! Here's a better way to respond. Take notes.

[quote]By the way, you also made an absolute statement that is flat out wrong. Why would your mistake be better than mine? The claim I am no pilot and know nothing about flying? You have no license. I do.

I passed my private, commercial and IFR written exams, with flying. I ran out of money as a 22-year old kid.


While you tried, I actually accomplished my goal to be a private pilot.[

Of course you did, which explains why you understand flaps.


While Flaps do increase lift, what you forgot to mention is they also greatly increase drag. Which is why when landing, we put on flaps to slow down. Yes, a bit more liff is there, but there is that penalty known as drag.

I did mention that, if you weren't senile you'd remember it too.


I have a license. i don't need google.

If you think flaps are brakes, we need to know your Instructor's name so we can have him arrested.

quote]Another point is that I do not fly commercial. And you apparently passed the ground tests.

yep.


I have flown IFR with the instructor with me plus passed that part of the IFR test as a pilot.

Your IFR instructor didn't know what flaps do, either? How did you pass?


WTF is your problem buster.

You are a fraud. You piss off everyone everywhere you post because you're a perpetual victim and are very insecure. Instead of addressing your weaknesses, you accuse everyone of attacking you. Want to lie and defend it? Anyone can Google Robert A. Whit and see that roughly half the Internet has been exposed and then blessedly relieved from your presence. You're too old to change, you'll finally be banned from here soon and we'll all be better for it. If I were still a mod here, you'd have been long gone, and someone else's problem.


You act like i insulted your mother. I simply was trying to make the point that the 747 that crashed in Afghanistan did not crash because some dumb pilot put on full flaps.

Flaps do create accidents, mainly from "Pilots" like you that think that they are brakes.


Full Flaps on any aircraft minimizes runway distance. Flaps are not airplane brakes!

How strange! You declared that flaps are brakes in this very thread!


You act like an air-head to make this such a big deal. I got rid of Marcus and AT so far as seeing them. Since you have this irrational hate, even for Bush supporters and republican supporters, why not put me on ignore?

I hate to see someone lying and I will correct you every time you're wrong. You are NOT a pilot, and you have no idea as to what you are talking about. You finally researched things and amended your earlier positions, but you clearly have no fucking idea as to Aerodynamics other than the 5 minutes you just spent on Google researching the principles of flight.


Finally, I mentioned short field take offs.

ALWAYS when an aircraft is about to do this, it is FULL FLAPS and FULL THROTTLE and FULL PITCH while brakes are applied, then released to get airborne. Then everything is adjusted accordingly as airspeed increases.


I am aware that commercial aircraft can deploy a minimum of flaps on take off but tell me, with 11,000 long runways, why bother?

Then why does every commercial airliner deploy 45 degree flaps or more?

Every aircraft that is sanctioned to fly will take off with full flaps, you dipshit.


FAA issued me a license in 1980. I trained a lot of hours.

You are full of shit.


Some of my training included mountain flying.

And in high altitude training you still think flaps are your brakes? Bullshit.


I really don't understand the rush to bash me since this is simply a matter of I jumped the gun too much by saying NEVER.

I understand that you're delusional, but wtf did you try to say? Let me get my 'shrooms out.


When I take off, I do not put on flaps.

lol.. attaboy. I'll never fly with you.


I do however put on flaps to land.

You go girl! However, I'm not in the plane with you because you don't use flaps on takeoff, remember that?


The issue is over take offs.[quote]

Flaps, please!

[quote]OK, now that I read all of your comments

Wait, you said all this without reading my comments?


As we both say, you get both lift and drag.

No, you say we have nothing but brakes!

[quote]As to commercial.
Nope, I am reading a message by one.


Good! Here's a better way to respond. Take notes.

[quote]By the way, you also made an absolute statement that is flat out wrong. Why would your mistake be better than mine? The claim I am no pilot and know nothing about flying? You have no license. I do.

I passed my private, commercial and IFR written exams, with flying. I ran out of money as a 22-year old kid.


While you tried, I actually accomplished my goal to be a private pilot.[

Of course you did, which explains why you understand flaps.


While Flaps do increase lift, what you forgot to mention is they also greatly increase drag. Which is why when landing, we put on flaps to slow down. Yes, a bit more liff is there, but there is that penalty known as drag.

I did mention that, if you weren't senile you'd remember it too.


I have a license. i don't need google.

If you think flaps are brakes, we need to know your Instructor's name so we can have him arrested.

quote]Another point is that I do not fly commercial. And you apparently passed the ground tests.

yep.


I have flown IFR with the instructor with me plus passed that part of the IFR test as a pilot.

Your IFR instructor didn't know what flaps do, either? How did you pass?


WTF is your problem buster.

You are a fraud. You piss off everyone everywhere you post because you're a perpetual victim and are very insecure. Instead of addressing your weaknesses, you accuse everyone of attacking you. Want to lie and defend it? Anyone can Google Robert A. Whit and see that roughly half the Internet has been exposed and then blessedly relieved from your presence. You're too old to change, you'll finally be banned from here soon and we'll all be better for it. If I were still a mod here, you'd have been long gone, and someone else's problem.


You act like i insulted your mother. I simply was trying to make the point that the 747 that crashed in Afghanistan did not crash because some dumb pilot put on full flaps.

Flaps do create accidents, mainly from "Pilots" like you that think that they are brakes.


Full Flaps on any aircraft minimizes runway distance. Flaps are not airplane brakes!

How strange! You declared that flaps are brakes in this very thread!


You act like an air-head to make this such a big deal. I got rid of Marcus and AT so far as seeing them. Since you have this irrational hate, even for Bush supporters and republican supporters, why not put me on ignore?

I hate to see someone lying and I will correct you every time you're wrong. You are NOT a pilot, and you have no idea as to what you are talking about. You finally researched things and amended your earlier positions, but you clearly have no fucking idea as to Aerodynamics other than the 5 minutes you just spent on Google researching the principles of flight.


Finally, I mentioned short field take offs.

ALWAYS when an aircraft is about to do this, it is FULL FLAPS and FULL THROTTLE and FULL PITCH while brakes are applied, then released to get airborne. Then everything is adjusted accordingly as airspeed increases.


I am aware that commercial aircraft can deploy a minimum of flaps on take off but tell me, with 11,000 long runways, why bother?

Then why does every commercial airliner deploy 45 degree flaps or more?

Every aircraft that is sanctioned to fly will take off with full flaps, you dipshit.


FAA issued me a license in 1980. I trained a lot of hours.

You are full of shit.


Some of my training included mountain flying.

And in high altitude training you still think flaps are your brakes? Bullshit.


I really don't understand the rush to bash me since this is simply a matter of I jumped the gun too much by saying NEVER.

You are an asshole, and don't know the first thing about aerodynamics.


When I take off, I do not put on flaps.

Of course you do.


I do however put on flaps to land.

That allows you a lower landing speed, by the way, you ignorant bastard.


The issue is over take offs.

No, the issue is that you don't understand aerodynamics at all!

[quote]OK, now that I read all of your comments
Nope, I am reading a message by one.


Good! Here's a better way to respond. Take notes.

[quote]By the way, you also made an absolute statement that is flat out wrong. Why would your mistake be better than mine? The claim I am no pilot and know nothing about flying? You have no license. I do.

I passed my private, commercial and IFR written exams, with flying. I ran out of money as a 22-year old kid.


While you tried, I actually accomplished my goal to be a private pilot.[

Of course you did, which explains why you understand flaps.


While Flaps do increase lift, what you forgot to mention is they also greatly increase drag. Which is why when landing, we put on flaps to slow down. Yes, a bit more liff is there, but there is that penalty known as drag.

I did mention that, if you weren't senile you'd remember it too.


I have a license. i don't need google.

If you think flaps are brakes, we need to know your Instructor's name so we can have him arrested.

quote]Another point is that I do not fly commercial. And you apparently passed the ground tests.

yep.


I have flown IFR with the instructor with me plus passed that part of the IFR test as a pilot.

Your IFR instructor didn't know what flaps do, either? How did you pass?


WTF is your problem buster.

You are a fraud. You piss off everyone everywhere you post because you're a perpetual victim and are very insecure. Instead of addressing your weaknesses, you accuse everyone of attacking you. Want to lie and defend it? Anyone can Google Robert A. Whit and see that roughly half the Internet has been exposed and then blessedly relieved from your presence. You're too old to change, you'll finally be banned from here soon and we'll all be better for it. If I were still a mod here, you'd have been long gone, and someone else's problem.


You act like i insulted your mother. I simply was trying to make the point that the 747 that crashed in Afghanistan did not crash because some dumb pilot put on full flaps.

Flaps do create accidents, mainly from "Pilots" like you that think that they are brakes.


Full Flaps on any aircraft minimizes runway distance. Flaps are not airplane brakes!

How strange! You declared that flaps are brakes in this very thread!


You act like an air-head to make this such a big deal. I got rid of Marcus and AT so far as seeing them. Since you have this irrational hate, even for Bush supporters and republican supporters, why not put me on ignore?

I hate to see someone lying and I will correct you every time you're wrong. You are NOT a pilot, and you have no idea as to what you are talking about. You finally researched things and amended your earlier positions, but you clearly have no fucking idea as to Aerodynamics other than the 5 minutes you just spent on Google researching the principles of flight.


Finally, I mentioned short field take offs.

ALWAYS when an aircraft is about to do this, it is FULL FLAPS and FULL THROTTLE and FULL PITCH while brakes are applied, then released to get airborne. Then everything is adjusted accordingly as airspeed increases.


I am aware that commercial aircraft can deploy a minimum of flaps on take off but tell me, with 11,000 long runways, why bother?

Then why does every commercial airliner deploy 45 degree flaps or more?

Every aircraft that is sanctioned to fly will take off with full flaps, you dipshit.


FAA issued me a license in 1980. I trained a lot of hours.

You are full of shit.


Some of my training included mountain flying.

And in high altitude training you still think flaps are your brakes? Bullshit.


I really don't understand the rush to bash me since this is simply a matter of I jumped the gun too much by saying NEVER.

I understand that you're delusional, but wtf did you try to say? Let me get my 'shrooms out.


When I take off, I do not put on flaps.

lol.. attaboy. I'll never fly with you.


I do however put on flaps to land.

You go girl! However, I'm not in the plane with you because you don't use flaps on takeoff, remember that?


The issue is over take offs.[quote]

Flaps, please!

[quote]OK, now that I read all of your comments

Wait, you said all this without reading my comments?


As we both say, you get both lift and drag.

No, you say we have nothing but brakes!

[quote]As to commercial.
Nope, I am reading a message by one.


Good! Here's a better way to respond. Take notes.

[quote]By the way, you also made an absolute statement that is flat out wrong. Why would your mistake be better than mine? The claim I am no pilot and know nothing about flying? You have no license. I do.

I passed my private, commercial and IFR written exams, with flying. I ran out of money as a 22-year old kid.


While you tried, I actually accomplished my goal to be a private pilot.[

Of course you did, which explains why you understand flaps.


While Flaps do increase lift, what you forgot to mention is they also greatly increase drag. Which is why when landing, we put on flaps to slow down. Yes, a bit more liff is there, but there is that penalty known as drag.

I did mention that, if you weren't senile you'd remember it too.


I have a license. i don't need google.

If you think flaps are brakes, we need to know your Instructor's name so we can have him arrested.

quote]Another point is that I do not fly commercial. And you apparently passed the ground tests.

yep.


I have flown IFR with the instructor with me plus passed that part of the IFR test as a pilot.

Your IFR instructor didn't know what flaps do, either? How did you pass?


WTF is your problem buster.

You are a fraud. You piss off everyone everywhere you post because you're a perpetual victim and are very insecure. Instead of addressing your weaknesses, you accuse everyone of attacking you. Want to lie and defend it? Anyone can Google Robert A. Whit and see that roughly half the Internet has been exposed and then blessedly relieved from your presence. You're too old to change, you'll finally be banned from here soon and we'll all be better for it. If I were still a mod here, you'd have been long gone, and someone else's problem.


You act like i insulted your mother. I simply was trying to make the point that the 747 that crashed in Afghanistan did not crash because some dumb pilot put on full flaps.

Flaps do create accidents, mainly from "Pilots" like you that think that they are brakes.


Full Flaps on any aircraft minimizes runway distance. Flaps are not airplane brakes!

How strange! You declared that flaps are brakes in this very thread!


You act like an air-head to make this such a big deal. I got rid of Marcus and AT so far as seeing them. Since you have this irrational hate, even for Bush supporters and republican supporters, why not put me on ignore?

I hate to see someone lying and I will correct you every time you're wrong. You are NOT a pilot, and you have no idea as to what you are talking about. You finally researched things and amended your earlier positions, but you clearly have no fucking idea as to Aerodynamics other than the 5 minutes you just spent on Google researching the principles of flight.


Finally, I mentioned short field take offs.

ALWAYS when an aircraft is about to do this, it is FULL FLAPS and FULL THROTTLE and FULL PITCH while brakes are applied, then released to get airborne. Then everything is adjusted accordingly as airspeed increases.


I am aware that commercial aircraft can deploy a minimum of flaps on take off but tell me, with 11,000 long runways, why bother?

Then why does every commercial airliner deploy 45 degree flaps or more?

Every aircraft that is sanctioned to fly will take off with full flaps, you dipshit.


FAA issued me a license in 1980. I trained a lot of hours.

You are full of shit.


Some of my training included mountain flying.

And in high altitude training you still think flaps are your brakes? Bullshit.


I really don't understand the rush to bash me since this is simply a matter of I jumped the gun too much by saying NEVER.

You are an asshole, and don't know the first thing about aerodynamics.


When I take off, I do not put on flaps.

Of course you do.


I do however put on flaps to land.

That allows you a lower landing speed, by the way, you ignorant bastard.


The issue is over take offs.

No, the issue is that you don't understand aerodynamics at all!


OK, now that I read all of your comments

As we both say, you get both lift and drag.

Wait, didn't you say I don't understand drag at the beginning? Oh, you did the Google thing.


As to commercial.

Since I have not flown a jet airplane or twins or heavy airplanes, I know that I do not put on flaps to take off except for two times. I apply flaps should I be on a soft field or a short field. While you get more left, the airplane also has to overcome drag. I was not trained to put on flaps to take off but in those 2 cases. Flaps make great brakes. If you had been a pilot, you would have learned to use them to slow down. But since you read Google, you may not know of their use as brakes.

Full flaps are utilized on both heavy and light aircraft every day to take off. SOMETIMES, if a 737 is light, they'll take off with less-than-full flaps configuration - only because they don't need full flaps and it wastes fuel.


I can say more but I think I fairly well covered it.

You have firmly estabished yourself as an Ass Clown.


What is it with you clowns? Do I take shots at your area of expertise? You don't know this but I once worked for Pacific Bell telephone in 1957/8 for about 14-15 months. I don't rush to get into your face over telecommunications and blat that one can use google to say what you say?

Shoot away at my expertise. I'm doing TeleCom 7 days a week, 10 hours a day. Right now I'm in Valdez, Alaska setting up a microwave network to provide Cordova with LTE capability.

I'm sure you have something to top it and tell me what I need to do.

Fuck you. I dare you to challenge me in my field or in aerodynamics.

You're lucky one of the pilots of the board didn't get a hold of you, you fraud.


Talk about ass hats.


Fuck you. You are the scourge of the board and you need to be banned just for your lies and general dumbassedness.

[Marcus Aurelius]

NightTrain now OFFICIALLY owns Robert Whitless's ass!

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

[Marcus Aurelius]

I spend a great deal of time flying around Alaska in both fixed wing and helicopters.

I took Commerical Aviation at UAA in '92 & '93, I passed my private, commercial and IFR tests, but I am not a pilot - I ran out of money and never returned to finish it, which I regret, but life happens.

However, I do understand the fundamentals and physics of flight and I have enough experience piloting planes to recognize that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Flaps increase the lift of the wings, which is mighty handy when you're trying to take off.

Flaps help an aircraft get airborne faster, due to increased lift, at a lower airspeed than if you had no flaps - your climb rate would suffer due to increased drag until you raised them, which is why when you're airborne and at a better speed, you reduce them until you are at zero flaps.

Calling flaps 'brakes' is silly. Yes, they increase drag dramatically but their primary function is to increase lift of the wings and allow both takeoff and landing at lower speeds.

I think you are confused with speedbrakes, which do not provide lift but dramatically increase drag which slows an aircraft down. Surely you're not talking about spoilers which decrease lift... but with you, I'm not sure.

To say an aircraft doesn't utilize flaps on takeoff is completely preposterous.

There have been thousands of mishaps worldwide due to a pilot's miscalculation of how much flap to apply given the weight of the aircraft, loading of the aircraft, wind, altitude, temperature, length of runway, runway terrain, etc.

I can't think of an aircraft ever made that isn't more than capable of taking off with full flaps - they are designed to maximize lift for that aircraft to get it airborne in the shortest distance possible.


Stop with pretending you know half of what you claim to.

I know, I know... that's not going to happen. Start researching the shit you want to be an expert on, before posting here with your insane bullshit.

5 minutes on Google would have saved you from looking like a complete idiot in this thread. My 9 year old son knows more about aerodynamics from me teaching him with our RC airplanes and helicopters than you do, and that's a fact.

P.S. You're still an asshole.

I even posted a link to a site stating the typical position for flaps on takeoff is 1, not 0. I think he ignored it since it proved him wrong.

[aboutime]

Marcus...here we go again. Yogi Berra.....4931...all over again!

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.commerciallevel.com/liveries/files/A340600/Manual/CLS_A340_500_600_OPERATIONS_MANUAL.pdf

Here's what Airbus has to say about flaps on takeoff for the A340-500/600

Page 20...

4934

Lookie there... flaps at 1 to start. I guess Robert Whitless knows more about flying that the people at Airbus, huh.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Oh, btw Whitless, regarding flaps as 'brakes'???

According to BOEING...
http://www.b737.org.uk/Ibarton73745notes.htm#NORMAL%20%20PROCEDURES


Using flaps as speedbrakes is not recommended.

and more on flaps...


TAKE-OFF CONFIGURATION WARNING - 1/ Stabilizer trim is NOT in the green band range, or 2/ Trailing Edge Flaps are NOT in the flap 5 through 15 take-off range, or 3/ Leading Edge Flaps are NOT in the correct position for take-off, or 4/ Speed Brake Lever is NOT in the DOWN position, or 5/ Parking Brake SET.
Lookie there... BOEING says the correct flap setting for the 737 during takeoff is between 5 and 15, no ) as Robert Whitless would have us believe.

[Marcus Aurelius]

that's odd. Just a minute ago, Robert Whitless showed as 'replying' in this thread... now he's offline.

I wonder what happened? :laugh:

[aboutime]

http://www.commerciallevel.com/liveries/files/A340600/Manual/CLS_A340_500_600_OPERATIONS_MANUAL.pdf

Here's what Airbus has to say about flaps on takeoff for the A340-500/600

Page 20...

4934

Lookie there... flaps at 1 to start. I guess Robert Whitless knows more about flying that the people at Airbus, huh.


Marcus. Even I, as a non-pilot who loves flying, and pays attention to almost everything related to, or connected with flying know;

Nearly every Professional Airline, or Military pilot goes thru a Pre-flight checklist, and stresses the use of FLAPS being checked PRIOR to takeoff.
Fact is. The FAA has disclosed how several of the most recent air disasters at TAKE-OFF were caused by the failure of cockpit crews to pay attention and ASSUME they were ready to take off.
Anyone who FLIES, or wishes they could FLY...like me. Knows. FLAPS increase the available potential of the aircraft to LIFT from the ground during a takeoff, or Landing when power is decreased to allow a safe landing.
Sorry if I created a STORM here. But then. I just considered the source......AGAIN.

[Marcus Aurelius]

More on the Robet Whitless idea of flaps as breaks...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flap_%28aircraft%29

Furthermore, once the aircraft is on the ground, the flaps may decrease the effectiveness of the brakes since the wing is still generating lift and preventing the entire weight of the aircraft from resting on the tires, thus increasing stopping distance, particularly in wet or icy conditions.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] Usually the pilot will raise the flaps as soon as possible to prevent this from occurring.

Great idea of yours, Robert. Feel free to use as much flap to brake as you like next time you fly.

[Robert A Whit]

[QUOTE=Robert A Whit;635314]Nope, I am reading a message by one.

yep.I have to admit that I made a terrible error actually suspecting you of being a good person. I won't do that again.



Your IFR instructor didn't know what flaps do, either? How did you pass

You seem confused. You think while landing we want more lift and that is why we put down the flaps. you are not even an actual pilot and it seems you have very little flying time. The reason to begin with I spoke of never using flaps to take off is that once I passed my FAA exam, I have never taken off again using flaps. You had a chance to address the yazoo that claimed we take off using full flaps but chose to ignore that gross mistake and rater tried to vent against me over what amounts to nothing. I had also spoken of take offs with short fields and later included soft field take offs. You don't even mention those since your one and only motive seems to try to see what a jerk you can appear to me. And you are accomplishing that.



You are a fraud. You piss off everyone everywhere you post because you're a perpetual victim and are very insecure. Instead of addressing your weaknesses, you accuse everyone of attacking you. Want to lie and defend it? Anyone can Google Robert A. Whit and see that roughly half the Internet has been exposed and then blessedly relieved from your presence. You're too old to change, you'll finally be banned from here soon and we'll all be better for it. If I were still a mod here, you'd have been long gone, and someone else's problem.


A bully is a person who thinks he found a weak person and attacks them because of that. Your post is no way friendly but you know that. Sorry but this is the only board I have posted on as Robert A. Whit. I note for the record you rather enjoy picking a fight since I had never picked one with you. Your trying to ban me. I have a better idea. Put me on Ignore. I did it to AT and Marcus and the silence is a blessing. You can get rid of me simply doing as Jim suggests and using the ignore feature.

Flaps do create accidents, mainly from "Pilots" like you that think that they are brakes.

Then you can prove it to us all by citing DOT accident reports. If you were not trained to use flaps to slow down, you got shafted by that imaginary instructor pilot you allege trained you. To this point, we don't know what you claim you flew. I on the other hand spoke of 3 aircraft I qualified in plus one I flew for several hours but did not finish flying the required hrs. Namely the complex Mooney 201.


How strange! You declared that flaps are brakes in this very thread!

They still are. Which is why even the major airlines will use at least 10 degrees of flaps while landing.

I hate to see someone lying and I will correct you every time you're wrong. You are NOT a pilot, and you have no idea as to what you are talking about. You finally researched things and amended your earlier positions, but you clearly have no fucking idea as to Aerodynamics other than the 5 minutes you just spent on Google researching the principles of flight

I am not lying. The poster you keep ignoring who claimed that all planes take off using full flaps is the liar based on your loony way of thinking. I figured he was just mistaken but he resorted to playing victim yet you did not attack him and you did not attack him though clearly he had no idea what he was talking about. Go get Abouttime. You are no pilot and are not in any position to correct me. My error was to the word NEVER. I have backed down, but the reason is clear. I have not taken off short field or soft field since 1980. But you are not whining over that. You are picking a fight is all. And at least you don't claim to hold a FAA license which I have to this day. I most definitely know the principles of flight and you have not come close to showing I learned anything using Google. I will admit to learning some of the commercial aircraft flap settings for take off, but other than that, nada. I did not change positions. I simply fixed one mistake and the mistake was the word NEVER. If a person refuses to correct errors, maybe the are flawed but I did that prior to this going to the cage.


ALWAYS when an aircraft is about to do this, it is FULL FLAPS and FULL THROTTLE and FULL PITCH while brakes are applied, then released to get airborne. Then everything is adjusted accordingly as airspeed increases.

Short field and soft fields must be what you are talking about. I don't fly from dirt runways. Could that be why I forgot? Could it also be that I do not fly commercial aircraft who are currently being weaned way back on using flaps to save fuel?

You are not even a frigging pilot yet you are lecturing me on flying. ROFLMAO

You forgot to mention that a lot of planes have fixed props and you can't change the pitch. And you mentioned nothing about manifold pressure for complex propellor aircraft with adjustable props.

Then why does every commercial airliner deploy 45 degree flaps or more?

Not for take offs. This all started over take offs. Matter of fact, the commercial jets I looked up go up to 30 degrees of flaps. The Mooney 201 I used to fly has max flapx of 33 degrees.

Every aircraft that is sanctioned to fly will take off with full flaps, you dipshit

You have a potty mouth kid. The cases where I would take off using any flaps is on a dirt field that is just too damned short or is also dirt and very soft. First, to land on poor areas is dumb. I fly safely and won't put an airplane into a place where I have to wiggle my ears to take off from. You seem completely ignorant of safety concerns.



You are full of shit.

No potty mouth, that would be you.

And in high altitude training you still think flaps are your brakes? Bullshit.

Flaps perform a braking function but are not the brakes on the wheels. I use flaps all the time landing at any airport. Be it high or sea level. We don't have a parachute to help show us down so we can use a variety of tactics to slow down. I have at times raised the nose enough to have the underpart of the wings and fuselage slow me down. I have crabbed while landing which also helps. Who trained you to not know flaps are brakes? They also provide lift but that does not contract they also work to slow the plane down. You actually think airliners want lift to land? They deploy flaps to help them slow down.

I understand that you're delusional, but wtf did you try to say? Let me get my 'shrooms out.

Nope, I have my pilots license in my wallet. For you to have so much rage, you must be one hell of a troubled person.



lol.. attaboy. I'll never fly with you.t

You are not invited.



You go girl! However, I'm not in the plane with you because you don't use flaps on takeoff, remember that?

I don't play around so am not trying to take off from a soft field or a short one. My passengers are safer that way.

[quote]The issue is over take offs.[quote

That is correct. And the ATs wild ass claim to always use 45 degrees. Even you claim it.

Both of you are wrong. I am amused you think you must prove I am no pilot as if your thinking much matters in the scheme of things. I know I have my license. I know you are no pilot because you admit it. And you also admit you quit at a very young age.

How many hours do you claim you have? I used to fly as much as 30 hours per month.

Flaps, please!

I do when landing.



Wait, you said all this without reading my comments?

Yes I did. Which is why I spoke of using flaps sometimes on take offs. I repeated some of your claims that you used google to find. Go google flap settings for commercial airplanes. Which of them has 45 degrees of setting? Come back to tell us the flap settings of say a 747 or 737? You have no license yet you speak in a manner trying to make people see you as an expert. That amuses me.

No, you say we have nothing but brakes!

We have brakes on the mains but you can't comprehend the reason you add flaps on landing is to help you slow down. And the extra lift from flaps also helps you land slower. If you have any landings, I suspect you have maybe a dozen. I have done that many on one day.

[quote]As to commercial.[QUOTE=Robert A Whit;635314]Nope, I am reading a message by one.

yep.



Your IFR instructor didn't know what flaps do, either? How did you pass?

He was my IFR instructor but had you flown with hood time you would know that the instructor has you flying only on instruments for part of the time. Clearly you never got that far if you actually did have training. Were you half as smart as you pretend, you would admit that to be a private pilot, one must qualify by flying part of the time on IFR. Dave, my primary flight instructor of course had to be fully commercial rated and That included IFR. Dave made sure I got hood time.



You are a fraud. You piss off everyone everywhere you post because you're a perpetual victim and are very insecure. Instead of addressing your weaknesses, you accuse everyone of attacking you. Want to lie and defend it? Anyone can Google Robert A. Whit and see that roughly half the Internet has been exposed and then blessedly relieved from your presence. You're too old to change, you'll finally be banned from here soon and we'll all be better for it. If I were still a mod here, you'd have been long gone, and someone else's problem.

Oh, you mean your temper tantrum is no attack. Wait, if you are not the victim, you are the bully. So, you must be the bully here since you allege I say I am the victim. No0 bub, you picked the fight. You picked the first fight and you can't stop. Won't stop I mean.



Flaps do create accidents, mainly from "Pilots" like you that think that they are brakes.



How strange! You declared that flaps are brakes in this very thread!



I hate to see someone lying and I will correct you every time you're wrong. You are NOT a pilot, and you have no idea as to what you are talking about. You finally researched things and amended your earlier positions, but you clearly have no fucking idea as to Aerodynamics other than the 5 minutes you just spent on Google researching the principles of flight.



ALWAYS when an aircraft is about to do this, it is FULL FLAPS and FULL THROTTLE and FULL PITCH while brakes are applied, then released to get airborne. Then everything is adjusted accordingly as airspeed increases.



Then why does every commercial airliner deploy 45 degree flaps or more?

Every aircraft that is sanctioned to fly will take off with full flaps, you dipshit.



You are full of shit.



And in high altitude training you still think flaps are your brakes? Bullshit.



You are an asshole, and don't know the first thing about aerodynamics.



Of course you do.



That allows you a lower landing speed, by the way, you ignorant bastard.



No, the issue is that you don't understand aerodynamics at all!

[quote]OK, now that I read all of your comments[QUOTE=Robert A Whit;635314]Nope, I am reading a message by one.

yep.



Your IFR instructor didn't know what flaps do, either? How did you pass?



You are a fraud. You piss off everyone everywhere you post because you're a perpetual victim and are very insecure. Instead of addressing your weaknesses, you accuse everyone of attacking you. Want to lie and defend it? Anyone can Google Robert A. Whit and see that roughly half the Internet has been exposed and then blessedly relieved from your presence. You're too old to change, you'll finally be banned from here soon and we'll all be better for it. If I were still a mod here, you'd have been long gone, and someone else's problem.



Flaps do create accidents, mainly from "Pilots" like you that think that they are brakes.



How strange! You declared that flaps are brakes in this very thread!



I hate to see someone lying and I will correct you every time you're wrong. You are NOT a pilot, and you have no idea as to what you are talking about. You finally researched things and amended your earlier positions, but you clearly have no fucking idea as to Aerodynamics other than the 5 minutes you just spent on Google researching the principles of flight.



ALWAYS when an aircraft is about to do this, it is FULL FLAPS and FULL THROTTLE and FULL PITCH while brakes are applied, then released to get airborne. Then everything is adjusted accordingly as airspeed increases.



Then why does every commercial airliner deploy 45 degree flaps or more?

Every aircraft that is sanctioned to fly will take off with full flaps, you dipshit.



You are full of shit.



And in high altitude training you still think flaps are your brakes? Bullshit.



I understand that you're delusional, but wtf did you try to say? Let me get my 'shrooms out.



lol.. attaboy. I'll never fly with you.



You go girl! However, I'm not in the plane with you because you don't use flaps on takeoff, remember that?

[quote]The issue is over take offs.[quote]

Flaps, please!



Wait, you said all this without reading my comments?



No, you say we have nothing but brakes!

[quote]As to commercial.[QUOTE=Robert A Whit;635314]Nope, I am reading a message by one.

yep.



Your IFR instructor didn't know what flaps do, either? How did you pass?



You are a fraud. You piss off everyone everywhere you post because you're a perpetual victim and are very insecure. Instead of addressing your weaknesses, you accuse everyone of attacking you. Want to lie and defend it? Anyone can Google Robert A. Whit and see that roughly half the Internet has been exposed and then blessedly relieved from your presence. You're too old to change, you'll finally be banned from here soon and we'll all be better for it. If I were still a mod here, you'd have been long gone, and someone else's problem.



Flaps do create accidents, mainly from "Pilots" like you that think that they are brakes.



How strange! You declared that flaps are brakes in this very thread!



I hate to see someone lying and I will correct you every time you're wrong. You are NOT a pilot, and you have no idea as to what you are talking about. You finally researched things and amended your earlier positions, but you clearly have no fucking idea as to Aerodynamics other than the 5 minutes you just spent on Google researching the principles of flight.



ALWAYS when an aircraft is about to do this, it is FULL FLAPS and FULL THROTTLE and FULL PITCH while brakes are applied, then released to get airborne. Then everything is adjusted accordingly as airspeed increases.



Then why does every commercial airliner deploy 45 degree flaps or more?

Every aircraft that is sanctioned to fly will take off with full flaps, you dipshit.



You are full of shit.



And in high altitude training you still think flaps are your brakes? Bullshit.



You are an asshole, and don't know the first thing about aerodynamics.



Of course you do.



That allows you a lower landing speed, by the way, you ignorant bastard.



No, the issue is that you don't understand aerodynamics at all!



Wait, didn't you say I don't understand drag at the beginning? Oh, you did the Google thing.



Full flaps are utilized on both heavy and light aircraft every day to take off. SOMETIMES, if a 737 is light, they'll take off with less-than-full flaps configuration - only because they don't need full flaps and it wastes fuel.



You have firmly estabished yourself as an Ass Clown.



*

[Marcus Aurelius]

Robert Whitless's complete fuck up on using the simplest feature on this board (the quote feature), makes that last post almost completely useless. Come to think of it, most of his posts are completely useless even when he doesn't fuck up the quote feature.

[Marcus Aurelius]

How strange! You declared that flaps are brakes in this very thread!

They still are. Which is why even the major airlines will use at least 10 degrees of flaps while landing.



And in high altitude training you still think flaps are your brakes? Bullshit.

Flaps perform a braking function but are not the brakes on the wheels. I use flaps all the time landing at any airport. Be it high or sea level. We don't have a parachute to help show us down so we can use a variety of tactics to slow down. I have at times raised the nose enough to have the underpart of the wings and fuselage slow me down. I have crabbed while landing which also helps. Who trained you to not know flaps are brakes? They also provide lift but that does not contract they also work to slow the plane down. You actually think airliners want lift to land? They deploy flaps to help them slow down.





complete bullshit, as I already posted above.

Quit while you're behind, dumb ass. All you're doing is making yourself look even more stupid than we all thnk you are.

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/students/maneuvers/skills/shortapproach.html

An airplane's POH/AFM may recommend flap retraction after landing to increase the brakes' effectiveness. This recommendation requires a ticklish division of the pilot's attention. Many examiners subdivide a short-field landing into three segments—closing the throttle, raising the flaps after touchdown, and applying the brakes.


The examiner is probing your understanding of the concept that full flaps produce lift along with drag. During a short-field rollout, you want the maximum amount of weight on the wheels to increase the effectiveness of the brakes. Retracting the flaps decreases lift, which increases the weight on the wheels. Your answers to these and other questions, coupled with your handling of the airplane, demonstrate to the examiner that you understand and can perform short-field approaches and landings. Congratulations—another checkride task successfully completed.



Hey Whitless... flaps left out after landing DECREASES brake effectiveness.

[Robert A Whit]

Say Night train, when do you plan to jump all over About Time for things he claimed?

The topic was the airplane crash in Afghanistan and he blurted out they take off using full flaps?

Either prove he is right or trash him for a change.

This debunks his and your claim of using 45 degrees.


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VS74741R (http://www.airliners.net/profile/VS74741R) http://cdn-www.airliners.net/graphics/ipflags/uk.gif From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 272 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted Sat Mar 26 2005 22:19:07 your local time (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11181 times:


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http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/graphics/newtestline.jpg
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I think they set (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/114159/#) the flaps to 10. You should try asking in the Tech/Ops forum.



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Obviously a Virgin Atlantic fan!!!

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http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/graphics/user_offline.gifPhilSquares (http://www.airliners.net/profile/PhilSquares) http://cdn-www.airliners.net/graphics/ipflags/uk.gif From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted Sun Mar 27 2005 05:38:34 your local time (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 11046 times:


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Flaps 10 or Flaps 20 are the takeoff settings on the -400. The selection of flaps may be driven bycompany (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/114159/#) procedures, temp, runway length, obstacles. The list is endless.

Landing flaps are 25 or 30.



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http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/graphics/user_offline.gifCX flyboy (http://www.airliners.net/profile/CX%20flyboy) http://cdn-www.airliners.net/graphics/ipflags/hk.gif From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6324 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted Sun Mar 27 2005 05:45:00 your local time (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 11033 times:


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Flap 10 or Flap 20 is normally used based on conditions such as weight, runway (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/114159/#) length, temperature, altitide etc...



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http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/graphics/user_offline.gifArmitageShanks (http://www.airliners.net/profile/ArmitageShanks) http://cdn-www.airliners.net/graphics/ipflags/xe.gif From UK - England, joined Dec 2003, 3355 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted Sun Mar 27 2005 07:54:03 your local time (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10915 times:


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As far as I know, <acronym title="British Airways" style="border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-bottom-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); cursor: help;">BA</acronym> uses 20 most of the time for takeoff.



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Check your bags (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/114159/#), check your brain.

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http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/graphics/user_offline.gifAJ (http://www.airliners.net/profile/AJ) http://cdn-www.airliners.net/graphics/ipflags/au.gif From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 5, posted Mon Mar 28 2005 04:14:43 your local time (8 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10744 times:


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SOP at Qantas is Flap 20 for all takeoffs.



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http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/graphics/user_offline.gifCX flyboy (http://www.airliners.net/profile/CX%20flyboy) http://cdn-www.airliners.net/graphics/ipflags/hk.gif From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6324 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted Mon Mar 28 2005 17:04:56 your local time (8 years 1 month 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 10675 times:


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We used to use Flap 20 as standard as well, but they introduced a computer system to calculate takeoff performance (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/114159/#) settings so that the figures can be more precises, and the computer is capable of calculating many more variables than a pilot can, so they introduced F10 takeoffs as well for us.


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[Marcus Aurelius]

Say Night train, when do you plan to jump all over About Time for things he claimed?

The topic was the airplane crash in Afghanistan and he blurted out they take off using full flaps?

Either prove he is right or trash him for a change.

This debunks his and your claim of using 45 degrees.

Translation: waaaaaa waaaaaaaa you're being mean to me... be mean to someone else too! waaaaaaaaaaa...





cry baby lying fuck.

[aboutime]

complete bullshit, as I already posted above.

Quit while you're behind, dumb ass. All you're doing is making yourself look even more stupid than we all thnk you are.


Marcus. Does the Robert stuff ever cease? Seems no matter how innocently I, or anyone else manages to use an expression, or word(s) here. We are instantly guilty of BLOWING SMOKE, according to Robert.

I offered my unprofessional, non-expert opinion on what I saw in the original Plane crash, and ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE because Robert simply had to find SOMETHING to argue about, disagree with, or use as a reason to PICK ON HIM.

I am about to blow my nose, and wipe. Do I need to get the approval of Robert before I choose to use a KLEENEX or TISSUE???

[jimnyc]

I know this is the cage, but worth repeating. Robert has placed others on ignore, let's see if that helps before people continuing the back and forth? It seems silly to me to continue poking the fire, unless the fire starts up against his word and engages others in the same fighting.

[Robert A Whit]

I know this is the cage, but worth repeating. Robert has placed others on ignore, let's see if that helps before people continuing the back and forth? It seems silly to me to continue poking the fire, unless the fire starts up against his word and engages others in the same fighting.

Yes, that is correct. If they are talking at me, I don't see any comments. I see authors with the word ... ignored.

Actually the correct statement for each is this. One post with AT mentioned rather than both of them.

<label>This message is hidden because aboutime is on your ignore list (http://www.debatepolicy.com/profile.php?do=ignorelist).</label>

[tailfins]

Can we all get back on to the topic and worry less about Robert's credentials.

He seems AWFULLY interested in Robert's "credentials".

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Can we all get back on to the topic and worry less about Robert's credentials.

IN MY YOUTH I WAS A CERTIFIED " WHORE HOPPER " OR SO MY CLOSE FRIENDS CALLED ME. NEVER MIND THAT MY DATES/GIRLFRIENDS WERE NOT THE BAR ROOM SLUTS THEY SO FREQUENTLY VISITED.
I had moved onto better things and they out of jealousy wanted to cheapen my status and raise their own. In doing so they only highlighted their own folly. Of course none of it was malicious but rather a subconscious act on their part. I found no end to the delight in my witticisms replying to their childlike accusations. They were my friends or else it would have been an entirely different matter, my being so falsely accused. Not that I didnt ever partake in the loving generosity of some of the better hot bar room vixens but one eventually moves up from cheap corn liquor to a better quality of refreshment..

O' CREDENTIALS, I GOT 'EM ON DOZENS AND DOZENS OF THINGS..... :laugh2:-Tyr

[Marcus Aurelius]

IN MY YOUTH I WAS A CERTIFIED " WHORE HOPPER " OR SO MY CLOSE FRIENDS CALLED ME. NEVER MIND THAT MY DATES/GIRLFRIENDS WERE NOT THE BAR ROOM SLUTS THEY SO FREQUENTLY VISITED.
I had moved onto better things and they out of jealousy wanted to cheapen my status and raise their own. In doing so they only highlighted their own folly. Of course none of it was malicious but rather a subconscious act on their part. I found no end to the delight in my witticisms replying to their childlike accusations. They were my friends or else it would have been an entirely different matter, my being so falsely accused. Not that I didnt ever partake in the loving generosity of some of the better hot bar room vixens but one eventually moves up from cheap corn liquor to a better quality of refreshment..

O' CREDENTIALS, I GOT 'EM ON DOZENS AND DOZENS OF THINGS..... :laugh2:-Tyr

As Whitless has shown, everyone on the Internet is an 'expert'. :laugh:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

As Whitless has shown, everyone on the Internet is an 'expert'. :laugh:

Sure, we all are experts. Experts on our own opinions. Some of us even research enough to back up what we present. Opinions are indeed like assholes everybody has one.Tyr

[jimnyc]

Sure, we all are experts. Experts on our own opinions. Some of us even research enough to back up what we present. Opinions are indeed like assholes everybody has one.Tyr

I am an expert on all things boobies related. I have been called into court to testify about them numerous times. :)

[Robert A Whit]

Sure, we all are experts. Experts on our own opinions. Some of us even research enough to back up what we present. Opinions are indeed like assholes everybody has one.Tyr

I don't believe I have called myself an expert on flying despite the fact I have a pilots license. I don't stay current on the license to begin with. I find that I like to fly at least a hour per week to feel current and keep up with the required 2 year flights with an instructor making sure I am up to date on my skills, I get rusty. The last flight with an instructor pointed out that I was rusty. The instructor told me that he was amazed I was as good as I was but when we came in to land at Hayward, CA, he said he was going to do the landing and not me. That told me he was not ready to check me off as safe.

When I spoke of flaps, I was thinking too much of my flying. I know when I used flaps to take off and I said when that was. I took too long to erase the word never and say I don't usually use flaps to take off. I don't frequent dirt runways. I don't box myself in to force me to take off using short field tactics. Much of my flying was at tower fields but have also landed and taken off many times from non tower fields. Rather than some people ask more details, they got hateful and attacked. Had they been interested, I could have informed them.

What is this big deal over flaps to begin with? i don't fly commercial aircraft. Being a pilot is much more than about flaps. The absolute hate I saw directed over this matter is crazy. I am not clear why some got so hateful.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I don't believe I have called myself an expert on flying despite the fact I have a pilots license. I don't stay current on the license to begin with. I find that I like to fly at least a hour per week to feel current and keep up with the required 2 year flights with an instructor making sure I am up to date on my skills, I get rusty. The last flight with an instructor pointed out that I was rusty. The instructor told me that he was amazed I was as good as I was but when we came in to land at Hayward, CA, he said he was going to do the landing and not me. That told me he was not ready to check me off as safe.

When I spoke of flaps, I was thinking too much of my flying. I know when I used flaps to take off and I said when that was. I took too long to erase the word never and say I don't usually use flaps to take off. I don't frequent dirt runways. I don't box myself in to force me to take off using short field tactics. Much of my flying was at tower fields but have also landed and taken off many times from non tower fields. Rather than some people ask more details, they got hateful and attacked. Had they been interested, I could have informed them.

What is this big deal over flaps to begin with? i don't fly commercial aircraft. Being a pilot is much more than about flaps. The absolute hate I saw directed over this matter is crazy. I am not clear why some got so hateful.

My post was directed at any single member here. It was a general comment not a specific point directed at any one individual here. When I do that I name the person . Never shy when I choose to blast a person .
There are experts, experts, EXPERTS AND SOCALLED "KNOW IT ALL EXPERTS".
THE LAST ONES ARE THE ONES TO WATCH OUT FOR. They tend to lead people astray.. -Tyr

[Robert A Whit]

He seems AWFULLY interested in Robert's "credentials".

There was but one issue. And that is FLAPS. I opened my Pilot's operating handbook that I used when I flew the Mooney 201 and went to the take off section. It does not mention using flaps to take off.

I used take off flaps in 1980 with my flight instructor, Dave Duffin, aboard. Dave had me practice short and soft field take offs and landings. Those always were done at Hayward airport and it is paved and has two runways. That is required to pass the FAA test.

For a pilot to be forced to take off on a dirt field, that gets mushy forcing him to use flaps to take off is not that often. If he owns land with his own runway and wants to take off on a soft field, he uses flaps. But this is not most pilots.

NEVER was the wrong word. I goofed up. I said so prior to this being in the CAGE.

Yet the tirade against me was strange. To want me banned for saying NEVER flat amazed me.

I paid Dave to instruct me and I started out flying the Piper Tomahawk. A 2 place airplane that you won't even get spin training in. It is vital for Cessna Pilots to have spin training. My instruction was to avoid spins, not try to correct for them.

Stalls can be easier to get in so I got plenty of stall training. I spent several months training since my goal was not minimum hours, but more complex training.

I switched away from that plane and have not flown one since 1980. I shifted to the Piper Warrior that is claimed to have 161 hp. From that I transitioned to the Piper Archer that has 181 Hp. Piper includes those numbers in the airplane model numbers. I flew the Mooney once I got my license and did not get enough hours in it to rent it and use it to carry passengers. All hrs in the Mooney were with an instructor with me.

I took mountain flying training before I passed the FAA exam.

The FAA ground test was at a FAA facility and I got almost a perfect score. I invite those who think a 97 score is not good to go take that test. Don't judge me until you take that test.

The FAA pilot that verified my skills spent almost an eternity it seemed to me, shooting in rapid fire questions he wanted answered. He wanted to know if I knew it or had to think it over. I manage to endure his sweating replies out of me and he was satisfied. I replied quickly and correctly. Bear in mind, what he wanted to find out was also on my ground test at FAA in Oakland, CA. I believe that took up most of an hour.

When we went out to the airplane, (I had picked up a Piper Warrior at Oakland, CA and met him at the San Jose Airport) he walked with me as I checked out the airplane. Had I not checked it out, he would have been unhappy. These guys do not do more than issue orders. You can't get them to tell you HOW do to something. They do not tell you check it out. If you don't they grade you down. Even Nightrain never flew with the FAA guy on the airplane with him. He did it years ago and ran out of money. I had plenty of money.

Once we got in, and in the Warrior, the Pilot gets in first to occupy the left seat, he got in. First thing he pulled was to not put on his lap and shoulder restraints system. I ordered him to put on his belts. He tried to get out of it. Had I let him, he would know I would cave into others who might not want to put on the restraints. That is there for a reason so I made sure he put his on.

I took off. He would tell me he wanted me to head in a direction and see what I did. Anyway, he did include a near landing in an emergency condition. He reached over and shut off the throttle and killed the engine. I had to locate right then a suitable field to land on. I had to explain to him why that field. And I had to prove to him i knew the wind directions from looking at what was happening on the ground. He went so far as to finally tell me to restart the engine once I cleared a fence on a pasture in the right direction. It started up easily but had it failed to start, I would be able to land in the pasture. In the flight test, he made sure to see how I handled hooded flight and how I handled stalls. I think the flight test part was perhaps 1.3 hours. This guy had a reputation of being tough. We landed at A different field in San Jose and he had a lap top typewriter in his briefcase and he typed out my license. I was not sure till then when i got the license but I got it on the spot. Later on, I took him and his wife out to help them locate a home. Actually during that process, the wife cooled down and decided to stay where they lived. Fortunately I might add since it was not too much later that the area they wanted to live at suffered a major earthquake and the home they wanted to buy suffered a lot of damage.

Why on earth a comment about flaps caused such a flap that it ends up in the CAGE baffles my mind to this instant. Ban me for saying NEVER?

Calling me names?

Really?

The loons are out in force it seems.

Let me conclude this way. If you can stand flying as a passenger, and you can afford it, go to a FBO where you can rent airplanes and get trained by a flight instructor. I have used several of them and feel they were all good instructors. Some women are flight instructors and I used one of those and she was great to fly with. You can be free. No lines at airports. You can get to places no commercial plane goes to. For instance, I liked to fly to Columbia, a very good field in the hills of the Sierras. I have landed at Lake Tahoe. I could be at Lake Tahoe in about 2 hours. That is over 5 hours by car. I have flown to Las Vegas and that takes like 3.5 hours. Imagine you are in the SF Area and decide to go to Las Vegas. You can take off in the AM and spend a lot of time at Las Vegas and be back home late that same day. I flew to Dagget Field at Barstow, CA and visited my half sister. She had a different father.

Dagget has no tower. It was constructed due to WWII as was Hayward, Airport. It was a kick to turn on the runway lights using the radio system on the airplane and I had visions of that scene in the movie, at the mountain in Wyoming where all the lights suddenly started coming on.

I took my then living father on a flight. I also took him to Oregon in my car to the Rogue river and paid for the day at the Jet boats we rode on up the river.

Flying can make it easier to see relatives.

I think if you want to enjoy life more, go get a pilots license.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

My post was directed at any single member here. It was a general comment not a specific point directed at any one individual here. When I do that I name the person . Never shy when I choose to blast a person .
There are experts, experts, EXPERTS AND SOCALLED "KNOW IT ALL EXPERTS".
THE LAST ONES ARE THE ONES TO WATCH OUT FOR. They tend to lead people astray.. -Tyr

Correction the first sentence in the post quoted above should read ----"My post was NOT directed at any single member here".

A Phone call interrupted my posting. Sorry.

[Robert A Whit]

I am an expert on all things boobies related. I have been called into court to testify about them numerous times. :)

Oh, then you must know all about Danni.com

[NightTrain]

Say Night train, when do you plan to jump all over About Time for things he claimed?

The topic was the airplane crash in Afghanistan and he blurted out they take off using full flaps?

Either prove he is right or trash him for a change.


NEVER do pilots put on FULL FLAPS to take off. Great way to crash.

That is wrong. Completely wrong.


If one is flying level, and puts on full flaps, the purpose is to slow down. Also, full flaps cause the airplane to lift a few feet up.

Yes, flaps do induce a massive amount of drag to the aircraft, (and hence, a braking function), but their primary function is to increase lift.

Flaps used on landing allow you to land at a lower speed without stalling.


As several of them stated, it slows down the airplane which is not what pilots want to happen in taking off. We take off using full throttle.

Wrong. Completely wrong.


We land using full flaps in most cases.

That allows your plane to fly at lower airspeeds due to greater lift on the wings with a resulting increase in drag.


What you suggest is like taking off from at a green light in your car while you also step on the brakes.

Completely wrong.


A very good example is in touch and goes. You land using flaps.

Wrong. You use flaps to avoid stalling at low takeoff and landing speeds.


Nobody said it is impossible. But just as you can hit the gas as you also apply brakes to your car, it is stupid to try that.

You are the very first person to ever proclaim that flaps are detrimental to takeoff.


We have one condition where one may use flaps to take off and that is a very short field take off.

Completely wrong. Anchorage International, Fairbanks International, Sea-Tac, Dallas Ft-Worth, St. Louis, Minneapolis, Denver, Salt Lake - I've seen it with my own eyes : 737s use a LOT of flaps on takeoff. EVERY TIME. Even when the plane has 20 passengers in it and is very light.


I read every word people post by the way. I would NEVER apply full flaps in any take off.

Jesus.

You make these kinds of statements, based on your small plane experience, but every pilot from his training knows that heavies need flaps to get off the ground and lift that gear fast to get aerodynamic and start moving. I don't know if a Moonie has retractable gear, but everyone knows that the gear down is a HUGE drag to the aircraft, and the sooner you can retract the cleaner the drag.


We are trained to take off with zero flaps.

No. That is not the way we are trained to take off, even in a Cessna 180. Yes, WE PRACTICE it, but flaps are almost always applied in a standard and safe takeoff. It is part of the checklist. You want to get off the ground and clean that aircraft up.


Flaps are brakes. Do you two get it yet?

Almost Completely wrong.


When you stated as fact we pilots use full flaps to take off, somebody who knows better had to speak up.

Pilots do, every day, world wide.


As the pilot on the forum, it turns out it was me.

I wish Gaffer or Mr. P were around right now to set you straight. Combat pilot. He definitely could school you on the merits of flaps on takeoff.

[Marcus Aurelius]

There was but one issue. And that is FLAPS. I opened my Pilot's operating handbook that I used when I flew the Mooney 201 and went to the take off section. It does not mention using flaps to take off.

I used take off flaps in 1980 with my flight instructor, Dave Duffin, aboard. Dave had me practice short and soft field take offs and landings. Those always were done at Hayward airport and it is paved and has two runways. That is required to pass the FAA test.

For a pilot to be forced to take off on a dirt field, that gets mushy forcing him to use flaps to take off is not that often. If he owns land with his own runway and wants to take off on a soft field, he uses flaps. But this is not most pilots.

NEVER was the wrong word. I goofed up. I said so prior to this being in the CAGE.

Yet the tirade against me was strange. To want me banned for saying NEVER flat amazed me.

I paid Dave to instruct me and I started out flying the Piper Tomahawk. A 2 place airplane that you won't even get spin training in. It is vital for Cessna Pilots to have spin training. My instruction was to avoid spins, not try to correct for them.

Stalls can be easier to get in so I got plenty of stall training. I spent several months training since my goal was not minimum hours, but more complex training.

I switched away from that plane and have not flown one since 1980. I shifted to the Piper Warrior that is claimed to have 161 hp. From that I transitioned to the Piper Archer that has 181 Hp. Piper includes those numbers in the airplane model numbers. I flew the Mooney once I got my license and did not get enough hours in it to rent it and use it to carry passengers. All hrs in the Mooney were with an instructor with me.

I took mountain flying training before I passed the FAA exam.

The FAA ground test was at a FAA facility and I got almost a perfect score. I invite those who think a 97 score is not good to go take that test. Don't judge me until you take that test.

The FAA pilot that verified my skills spent almost an eternity it seemed to me, shooting in rapid fire questions he wanted answered. He wanted to know if I knew it or had to think it over. I manage to endure his sweating replies out of me and he was satisfied. I replied quickly and correctly. Bear in mind, what he wanted to find out was also on my ground test at FAA in Oakland, CA. I believe that took up most of an hour.

When we went out to the airplane, (I had picked up a Piper Warrior at Oakland, CA and met him at the San Jose Airport) he walked with me as I checked out the airplane. Had I not checked it out, he would have been unhappy. These guys do not do more than issue orders. You can't get them to tell you HOW do to something. They do not tell you check it out. If you don't they grade you down. Even Nightrain never flew with the FAA guy on the airplane with him. He did it years ago and ran out of money. I had plenty of money.

Once we got in, and in the Warrior, the Pilot gets in first to occupy the left seat, he got in. First thing he pulled was to not put on his lap and shoulder restraints system. I ordered him to put on his belts. He tried to get out of it. Had I let him, he would know I would cave into others who might not want to put on the restraints. That is there for a reason so I made sure he put his on.

I took off. He would tell me he wanted me to head in a direction and see what I did. Anyway, he did include a near landing in an emergency condition. He reached over and shut off the throttle and killed the engine. I had to locate right then a suitable field to land on. I had to explain to him why that field. And I had to prove to him i knew the wind directions from looking at what was happening on the ground. He went so far as to finally tell me to restart the engine once I cleared a fence on a pasture in the right direction. It started up easily but had it failed to start, I would be able to land in the pasture. In the flight test, he made sure to see how I handled hooded flight and how I handled stalls. I think the flight test part was perhaps 1.3 hours. This guy had a reputation of being tough. We landed at A different field in San Jose and he had a lap top typewriter in his briefcase and he typed out my license. I was not sure till then when i got the license but I got it on the spot. Later on, I took him and his wife out to help them locate a home. Actually during that process, the wife cooled down and decided to stay where they lived. Fortunately I might add since it was not too much later that the area they wanted to live at suffered a major earthquake and the home they wanted to buy suffered a lot of damage.

Why on earth a comment about flaps caused such a flap that it ends up in the CAGE baffles my mind to this instant. Ban me for saying NEVER?

Calling me names?

Really?

The loons are out in force it seems.

Let me conclude this way. If you can stand flying as a passenger, and you can afford it, go to a FBO where you can rent airplanes and get trained by a flight instructor. I have used several of them and feel they were all good instructors. Some women are flight instructors and I used one of those and she was great to fly with. You can be free. No lines at airports. You can get to places no commercial plane goes to. For instance, I liked to fly to Columbia, a very good field in the hills of the Sierras. I have landed at Lake Tahoe. I could be at Lake Tahoe in about 2 hours. That is over 5 hours by car. I have flown to Las Vegas and that takes like 3.5 hours. Imagine you are in the SF Area and decide to go to Las Vegas. You can take off in the AM and spend a lot of time at Las Vegas and be back home late that same day. I flew to Dagget Field at Barstow, CA and visited my half sister. She had a different father.

Dagget has no tower. It was constructed due to WWII as was Hayward, Airport. It was a kick to turn on the runway lights using the radio system on the airplane and I had visions of that scene in the movie, at the mountain in Wyoming where all the lights suddenly started coming on.

I took my then living father on a flight. I also took him to Oregon in my car to the Rogue river and paid for the day at the Jet boats we rode on up the river.

Flying can make it easier to see relatives.

I think if you want to enjoy life more, go get a pilots license.

All I see up there in Roberts post is 'whine whine whine... people are being mean to me... whine whine whine'

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit

Flaps are brakes. Do you two get it yet?


Already proved this to be wrong, dumb ass.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I don't believe I have called myself an expert on flying...

good, because this dumb ass statement proves your not an expert.


Flaps make great brakes. If you had been a pilot, you would have learned to use them to slow down. But since you read Google, you may not know of their use as brakes.

utter nonsense.

[Robert A Whit]

I am getting tired of you Nighttrain since you drag up posts from a different thread that I simply do not have access too.

But I have done the following.

Admitted my remark about NEVER using flaps is wrong. I can explain why i said that but I have strong doubts it would matter why.

I can't keep saying my comment was not correct for endless days.

You pulled this out for me to address.



You make these kinds of statements, based on your small plane experience, but every pilot from his training knows that heavies need flaps to get off the ground and lift that gear fast to get aerodynamic and start moving. I don't know if a Moonie has retractable gear, but everyone knows that the gear down is a HUGE drag to the aircraft, and the sooner you can retract the cleaner the drag.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit
I have addressed the above. Matter of fact, I pulled out my Mooney 201 Pilots operating manual and though I had forgot this, it calls for 20 degrees flaps on take off. It is retractable and has a variable pitch prop. This is normal for the Mooney. My instructor did not spend time trying to teach me how to fly a heavy. I have never flown a Cessna 180. Just as you have not flown in the Mooney 201 and I don't believe you piloted the Piper products I trained in and flew.

I did not use flaps ever on the Pipers other than during my flight training and I also said that it was for short field and soft field take offs. I also stated I used flaps to land. And I correctly said flaps act as brakes. I assure you my motive in landing was to get to a "normal" landing speed and my flaps added drag, thus I used them. While I did get more lift at lower speeds, I was interested in landing slower. Ergo my main purpose was as brakes. Even you admit they act as brakes.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit
We are trained to take off with zero flaps.

No. That is not the way we are trained to take off, even in a Cessna 180. Yes, WE PRACTICE it, but flaps are almost always applied in a standard and safe takeoff. It is part of the checklist. You want to get off the ground and clean that aircraft up.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit
That is fine for you to say in the 180. I assure you if you find the pilots operating manual for the Piper Tomahawk, the Piper Warrior and the Piper Archer, that is not how we were trained. I was trained to not use flaps on take off. I said further, short fields and soft fields are different.

Erase my NEVER and stop making this a big deal.

Again, when trained in the Mooney in 1980, which happens to be 33 years ago, I did use the flaps to take off. This really riled you up so please forgive me for forgetting that 33 years ago in that one airplane, on take off I used flaps.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit
Flaps are brakes. Do you two get it yet?




Almost Completely wrong.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit

Almost is not wrong. Flaps do add lift, but you want to slow down the airplane for landing ergo flaps act as brakes. The lift is not an advantage given your purpose is to reach a state of zero lift as you come to a stop.

Where you are going wrong is you won't admit that flaps are brakes. You only admit they provide lift and I agree with the part that they provide lift.

Footnote to posters

Any of you can use Google to learn what is happening. That does not make you a pilot. Even Nighttrain is not a pilot. He QUIT

I have a license. End of story.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Footnote to posters

Any of you can use Google to learn what is happening. That does not make you a pilot. Even Nighttrain is not a pilot. He QUIT

I have a license. End of story.

so, you ARE claiming to be an expert on flying. Strange, since you've been proven wrong multiple times on this subject by more than one poster.

He didn't QUIT, he couldn't afford it any longer. Get over your lying ass self, you narcissistic non-pilot fuckwad.

On, and please, for the love of GOD... learn to properly use the QUOTE feature!

[Robert A Whit]

I see there are hidden messages. And they shall stay hidden. Those posters lost the right to get my replies to them.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I see there are hidden messages. And they shall stay hidden. Those posters lost the right to get my replies to them.

Even on 'IGNORE', I can still get you to respond to my posts!

I own your lying ass :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::danc e::dance::dance:

[Robert A Whit]

OMG

I am laughing so hard.

That ignore feature is great.

[aboutime]

OMG

I am laughing so hard.

That ignore feature is great.


You should use this Robert....pretend it says nothing, and just ignore it....4938and everyone else here!

[Marcus Aurelius]

OMG

I am laughing so hard.

That ignore feature is great.

Even on 'IGNORE', I can still get you to respond to my posts! That's two in a row now!

I so totally own your lying:dance: ass :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::danc e::dance:

[Robert A Whit]

Posters now on ignore may promise Jim they will behave and he can contact me to ask me to take you off ignore.

I hope you understand that I realize two are posting but the ignore feature does not show me what you say.

i will be pleased to engage you when you agree to behave.

[Robert A Whit]

Thank you very much Abbey for what you did. I am grateful.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Posters now on ignore may promise Jim they will behave and he can contact me to ask me to take you off ignore.

I hope you understand that I realize two are posting but the ignore feature does not show me what you say.

i will be pleased to engage you when you agree to behave.

I find it hilarious that you keep responding to posts from someone you claim to be ignoring!:laugh2:

[Kathianne]

I find it hilarious that you keep responding to posts from someone you claim to be ignoring!:laugh2:

Yeah, he said he put me on ignore too, which made 3, not 2. Still responding. I feel his pain, I've tried ignore, doesn't work as well as one would hope.

[Robert A Whit]

Yeah, he said he put me on ignore too, which made 3, not 2. Still responding. I feel his pain, I've tried ignore, doesn't work as well as one would hope.

You were on ignore and appeared to behave. i saw things you said due to others copying your comments. Being you seemed to shape up, I took you off ignore.

But that can change too.

I won't see his comments if you don't include them. But thus far, over several days, I have not read a thing he said.

[Kathianne]

You were on ignore and appeared to behave. i saw things you said due to others copying your comments. Being you seemed to shape up, I took you off ignore.

But that can change too.

I won't see his comments if you don't include them. But thus far, over several days, I have not read a thing he said.

When I look for your approval in any post, it's the time for 'shoot me' for sure.

[Robert A Whit]

When I look for your approval in any post, it's the time for 'shoot me' for sure.

You told Revelarts you are just direct. Believe me, it is much worse than that.

You think our problems was over Vedic?

Wrong. Before that, your alleged directness read like an attack.

[aboutime]

When I look for your approval in any post, it's the time for 'shoot me' for sure.


Kathianne. How many different ways can someone say something before they begin to understand what you have said????

Just wondering. Had the same problem.

[Marcus Aurelius]

You were on ignore and appeared to behave. i saw things you said due to others copying your comments. Being you seemed to shape up, I took you off ignore.

But that can change too.

I won't see his comments if you don't include them. But thus far, over several days, I have not read a thing he said.

yet you respond to the posts... how odd.

moron.

[Marcus Aurelius]

You told Revelarts you are just direct. Believe me, it is much worse than that.

You think our problems was over Vedic?

Wrong. Before that, your alleged directness read like an attack.

poor baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaby

[Anton Chigurh]

Marcus. WAIT FOR IT.

WAIT FOR IT.......

I found no license was needed for him. His ID for MENSA says it all....4925. Able to Leap piles of crap in a single bound.That's FUNNEH right there...:laugh:

[Jeff]

You told Revelarts you are just direct. Believe me, it is much worse than that.

You think our problems was over Vedic?

Wrong. Before that, your alleged directness read like an attack.

Robert I can tell you for sure you wont find much better than Kat , all of the ladies here are 100% class you will see they may debate you at first but if the Sh** slinging continues they just stop replying to ya unless they are drug into it, ( I know I have been there :laugh:) seriously put the past behind let it stay there and you will see

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Robert I can tell you for sure you wont find much better than Kat , all of the ladies here are 100% class you will see they may debate you at first but if the Sh** slinging continues they just stop replying to ya unless they are drug into it, ( I know I have been there :laugh:) seriously put the past behind let it stay there and you will see

I AGREE, KAT AND ABBEY ARE GRADE -A- NUMBER ONE IN MY BOOK. --Tyr

[Marcus Aurelius]

I AGREE, KAT AND ABBEY ARE GRADE -A- NUMBER ONE IN MY BOOK. --Tyr

Now now, we know Robert is an 'expert' on number one... but mostly on number two:laugh2:

[aboutime]

Now now, we know Robert is an 'expert' on number one... but mostly on number two:laugh2:


Git 'er Done! 4944...and don't forget 'Dem Granny Farts!'

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Jeff http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=636158#post636158)
Robert I can tell you for sure you wont find much better than Kat , all of the ladies here are 100% class you will see they may debate you at first but if the Sh** slinging continues they just stop replying to ya unless they are drug into it, ( I know I have been there :laugh:) seriously put the past behind let it stay there and you will see


I AGREE, KAT AND ABBEY ARE GRADE -A- NUMBER ONE IN MY BOOK. --Tyr

Jeff, I judge others by how they treat me. Maybe she treats you well.

Don't want to dig into the weeds all that much, but it was shortly after i showed up I opened her comments and by god, she was trashing me.

I had no fight with the woman. But I was being trashed.

I gladly would treat her well. I gladly love peace. Tyr and Jeff, we do not fight. A lot of posters and I do not fight. I compliment Abbey because she is awesome yet I get told off for even doing that much.

If they want the same treatment Jeff and Abbey and Tyr gets from me, all they need do is end the flaming, end the trash talk. That stuff does nobody good. I don't even care to post in the cage since it is for fighting.

I simply loathe fighting. I get tired of when on the regular forum I catch Kathianne bashing over and over.

She knows she uses a nickname that i told her I associate with tots. But she persists in being crude and rude.

She can fix this. When she stops attacking me, even trying to sneak in attacks as she did yesterday, where I ended up being told off for my comments, when she knew very well her snotty comments were headed at me, and decides to behave, I won't hold any of it against her.

I prefer to treat the woman as well as I treat Abbey. I would gladly do so were she to stop bashing me. I am so forgiving that give me a day and I let it all go.

I tried to give her an example of a woman who fought me on AOL.

Silver turned out to be a great person. But she and I started out kind of normal but she bashed Bush and somehow we tangled. It got pretty bad, though not more bad than with Kathianne.

Turns out we mailed each other and was able to talk it out and ended up being great friends. Silver died. I really miss her. Were she living, she would gladly post here.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Jeff, I judge others by how they treat me. Maybe she treats you well.

Don't want to dig into the weeds all that much, but it was shortly after i showed up I opened her comments and by god, she was trashing me.

I had no fight with the woman. But I was being trashed.

I gladly would treat her well. I gladly love peace. Tyr and Jeff, we do not fight. A lot of posters and I do not fight. I compliment Abbey because she is awesome yet I get told off for even doing that much.

If they want the same treatment Jeff and Abbey and Tyr gets from me, all they need do is end the flaming, end the trash talk. That stuff does nobody good. I don't even care to post in the cage since it is for fighting.

I simply loathe fighting. I get tired of when on the regular forum I catch Kathianne bashing over and over.

She knows she uses a nickname that i told her I associate with tots. But she persists in being crude and rude.

She can fix this. When she stops attacking me, even trying to sneak in attacks as she did yesterday, where I ended up being told off for my comments, when she knew very well her snotty comments were headed at me, and decides to behave, I won't hold any of it against her.

I prefer to treat the woman as well as I treat Abbey. I would gladly do so were she to stop bashing me. I am so forgiving that give me a day and I let it all go.

I tried to give her an example of a woman who fought me on AOL.

Silver turned out to be a great person. But she and I started out kind of normal but she bashed Bush and somehow we tangled. It got pretty bad, though not more bad than with Kathianne.

Turns out we mailed each other and was able to talk it out and ended up being great friends. Silver died. I really miss her. Were she living, she would gladly post here.

http://groovyvic.mu.nu/archives/images/baby_crying2.gif

[aboutime]

http://groovyvic.mu.nu/archives/images/baby_crying2.gif

Marcus. I know you read the same requests I did from Jim recently. Wonder why One, lone member just can't seem to let it go?
It's almost as if jimnyc never came here asking for more tact, and simple requests....that seem to go un-heeded by someone endlessly. Then...You, and I get warnings to stop...again, even after we have????? Go figure?

[Robert A Whit]

This message ishidden because Marcus Aurelius is on your ignore list (http://www.debatepolicy.com/profile.php?do=ignorelist).<o:p></o:p><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>This message ishidden because aboutime is on your ignore list (http://www.debatepolicy.com/profile.php?do=ignorelist).<o:p></o:p><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>ROFLMAO<o:p></o:p>

[jimnyc]

This message ishidden because Marcus Aurelius is on your ignore list (http://www.debatepolicy.com/profile.php?do=ignorelist).<o:p></o>

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o>

This message ishidden because aboutime is on your ignore list (http://www.debatepolicy.com/profile.php?do=ignorelist).<o:p></o>

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o>

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o>

ROFLMAO<o:p></o>



4 days later you needed to do this? Please don't claim to be in a higher road than anyone else posting stuff towards you here in the cage. Playing little games like this is equally as bad as coming here and outright talking smack.

[Robert A Whit]

4 days later you needed to do this? Please don't claim to be in a higher road than anyone else posting stuff towards you here in the cage. Playing little games like this is equally as bad as coming here and outright talking smack.

Wow

Even in the cage you jump only my ass.

Where is the outrage over stuff you showed me on the forum from one of them? I found you quoted them on the forum.

I proved they are on ignore is all.

[jimnyc]

Wow

Even in the cage you jump only my ass.

Where is the outrage over stuff you showed me on the forum from one of them? I found you quoted them on the forum.

I proved they are on ignore is all.

You've wrote that message about 20x now AND in the cage. I think the point has been made.

[Marcus Aurelius]

You've wrote that message about 20x now AND in the cage. I think the point has been made.

I think it is simply hilarious that he responds to all my posts, even though I am on 'ignore':laugh2: