So just what is "the occult"?

[tailfins]

Having been taught not to go anywhere near the occult, it's a good idea to consider the premise of exactly what that is. Obviously any kind of fortune telling, astrology, spirit summoning, etc. is nothing to be trifled with. I'm amazed people watch shows like "Long Island Medium". This is OBVIOUSLY involvement with the occult. While I'm taking aback by the gross-out factor with homosexuality (why is it different than any other sin?), there should be a gross-out factor with summoning spirits. I present Ephesians 6:12 as Exhibit A:


For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

NICE! Typing this text has caused Harry Potter to show up in the DP forum ads. What a bunch of crap!

[tailfins]

Here is an interesting article on the topic:

http://www.gotquestions.org/occult.html


The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God. But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, ‘You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?’” (Acts 13:6-10 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts%2013.6-10)).

[revelarts]

Having been taught not to go anywhere near the occult, it's a good idea to consider the premise of exactly what that is. Obviously any kind of fortune telling, astrology, spirit summoning, etc. is nothing to be trifled with. I'm amazed people watch shows like "Long Island Medium". This is OBVIOUSLY involvement with the occult. While I'm taking aback by the gross-out factor with homosexuality (why is it different than any other sin?), there should be a gross-out factor with summoning spirits. I present Ephesians 6:12 as Exhibit A:


NICE! Typing this text has caused Harry Potter to show up in the DP forum ads. What a bunch of crap!


the old testament fills that out
Deuteronomy 18:10-12
"10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you."


I don't understand how a Christian, in the light of text like these, can combine witchcraft, pagan rites or calling on pagan spirits with faith in Jesus Christ.
But i don't see how some can support abortion either and a lot of other things.

Maybe they think text like these don't apply to them somehow. maybe they aren't familiar with verses like this, I don't know.
The occult is definitely something i don't want to be involved with.

[revelarts]

Isiah 47

the prophet speaks to the Babylonians

10 You have trusted in your wickedness
and have said, ‘No one sees me.’
Your wisdom and knowledge mislead you
when you say to yourself,
‘I am, and there is none besides me.’
11 Disaster will come upon you,
and you will not know how to conjure it away.
A calamity will fall upon you
that you cannot ward off with a ransom;
a catastrophe you cannot foresee
will suddenly come upon you. 12 “Keep on, then, with your magic spells
and with your many sorceries,
which you have labored at since childhood.
Perhaps you will succeed,
perhaps you will cause terror.
13 All the counsel you have received has only worn you out!
Let your astrologers come forward,
those stargazers who make predictions month by month,
let them save you from what is coming upon you.
14 Surely they are like stubble;
the fire will burn them up.
They cannot even save themselves
from the power of the flame.
These are not coals for warmth;
this is not a fire to sit by.
15 That is all they are to you—
these you have dealt with
and labored with since childhood.
All of them go on in their error;
there is not one that can save you.

[revelarts]

one more

Isaiah 8:
19 When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? 20 Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.

Leviticus 19
31 “‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God.

[Nukeman]

I have to ask, do either of you have a Christmas tree?? Did you give your children Easter baskets? Just curious..

[tailfins]

I have to ask, do either of you have a Christmas tree?? Did you give your children Easter baskets? Just curious..

Easter basket, no. We still do the Christmas tree, but have doubts. We may replace it with a manger. Your point is noted.

[revelarts]

I have to ask, do either of you have a Christmas tree?? Did you give your children Easter baskets? Just curious..


http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?41119-Religious-freedom-is-for-ALL-religions&p=642760#post642760

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?39997-What-is-Up-with-Google-Today&p=628099#post628099

[revelarts]

I have to ask, do either of you have a Christmas tree?? Did you give your children Easter baskets? Just curious..

but you know at least people used to be mainly ignorant of where the tree and eggs came from and it's been all been culturally linked with Christ over the years.
What amazes me is how many Christian women i know that talk about the horoscopes and what "sign" they are.

[BillyBob]

I have to ask, do either of you have a Christmas tree?? Did you give your children Easter baskets? Just curious..


Are you suggesting that these things are occultist?

[Kathianne]

Are you suggesting that these things are occultist?

The objects are from pagan rituals, adapted for Christians. Much like so much of the New Testament was based on what had come before.

In all things we learn and with God, all things are possible.

[tailfins]

The objects are from pagan rituals, adapted for Christians. Much like so much of the New Testament was based on what had come before.

In all things we learn and with God, all things are possible.

My big concern is fire still burns your skin regardless of intent. That last thing I want to do is bring demonic influences into my presence.

[BillyBob]

The objects are from pagan rituals, adapted for Christians. Much like so much of the New Testament was based on what had come before.

In all things we learn and with God, all things are possible.

I fully understand that many pagan things were adopted by Christians, but that doesn't make them objects of the occult, which was my question.

I mean, when we get a Christmas tree, we don't use it to summon demons. Heck, we barely think about it from a Christian perspective, for that matter. It's just a traditional thing to do at Christmas time, no more than a decoration.

[Kathianne]

I fully understand that many pagan things were adopted by Christians, but that doesn't make them objects of the occult, which was my question.

I mean, when we get a Christmas tree, we don't use it to summon demons. Heck, we barely think about it from a Christian perspective, for that matter. It's just a traditional thing to do at Christmas time, no more than a decoration.

Yet, you imply denial for other religions to have traditions that may appear to you as 'pagan.' Emphasis is on the 'you,' I don't get a 'god' vibe from you. Heck, don't get much of a Christian vibe from you.

[BillyBob]

Yet, you imply denial for other religions to have traditions that may appear to you as 'pagan.' Emphasis is on the 'you,' I don't get a 'god' vibe from you. Heck, don't get much of a Christian vibe from you.

That's because you aren't paying attention.

[Kathianne]

That's because you aren't paying attention.

You'd be wrong. It's your lack of understanding.

[BillyBob]

You'd be wrong. It's your lack of understanding.


No, I was right the first time.

Like I said, I don't care what pagan traditions were adopted by Christians, they have long since ceased to be pagan. Except maybe for the cool fish head hat the pope wears. That thing ROCKS!


http://www.collectmyflock.com/gif__POPE_FISH_HEAD_HAT__01.jpe

[Kathianne]

No, I was right the first time.

Like I said, I don't care what pagan traditions were adopted by Christians, they have long since ceased to be pagan. Except maybe for the cool fish head hat the pope wears. That thing ROCKS!


http://www.collectmyflock.com/gif__POPE_FISH_HEAD_HAT__01.jpe

In any rendering you'd still be wrong. Things aren't pagan or non, just what humans decide at the moment. The truth will out.

[BillyBob]

In any rendering you'd still be wrong. Things aren't pagan or non, just what humans decide at the moment. The truth will out.

It's still a cool fish head hat!

[Gaffer]

My big concern is fire still burns your skin regardless of intent. That last thing I want to do is bring demonic influences into my presence.

Exactly what powers do these demons possess? And where did they get them?

[Nukeman]

Are you suggesting that these things are occultist?YOU have been suggesting that pagan beliefs are related to the occult, Not I


I fully understand that many pagan things were adopted by Christians, but that doesn't make them objects of the occult, which was my question.

I mean, when we get a Christmas tree, we don't use it to summon demons. Heck, we barely think about it from a Christian perspective, for that matter. It's just a traditional thing to do at Christmas time, no more than a decoration.Just because YOU don't think about them does not change the fact that the only purpose of bringing a tree into your home for the winter solstice was to appease the wood sprites, which goes against Holy scripture. Ignorance of your actions does NOT excuse YOUR actions..... It may justify them in your mind, but you're still wrong!!!!!!!

[Voted4Reagan]

Are you suggesting that these things are occultist?

They are Pagan symbols... so the answer to the question you pose is YES. They are PAGAN symbols, not OCCULTIST as you try to disparage them to be.

Christmas was placed on the Pagan Holiday of YULE. The Tree is a symbol of That Festival.


http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/holidays2.htm (http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/holidays2.htm)


It is beyond doubt that Christmas was originally a pagan festival. The time of the year and the ceremonies with which it is still celebrated, prove its origin.

Isis, the Egyptian title for the "queen of heaven," gave birth to a son at this very time, about the time of the winter solstice. The term "Yule" is the Chaldee (Babylonian) name for "infant" or "little child."

This pagan festival not only commemorated the figurative birthday of the sun in the renewal of its course, but it also was celebrated (on December 24) among the Sabeans of Arabia, as the birthday of the "Lord Moon."

In Babylon, where the sun (Baal) was the object of worship, Tammuz was considered the incarnation of the Sun.




"In the Hindu mythology, which is admitted to be essentially Babylonian, this comes out very distinctly. There, Surya, or the Sun, is represented as being incarnate, and born for the purpose of subduing the enemies of the gods, who without such a birth, could not have been subdued." Ibid pg 96




There are many other Christmas counterparts of the Babylonian winter solstice festival, such as: 1) candles lighted on Christmas eve and used throughout the festival season were equally lighted by the Pagans on the eve of the festival of the Babylonian god, to do honor to him, 2) the Christmas tree was equally common in Pagan Rome and Pagan Egypt. In Egypt that tree was the palm tree; in Rome it was the fir. The tree denoted the Pagan Messiah.




"The mother of Adonis, the Sun God and great mediatorial divinity, was mystically said to have been changed into a tree, and when in that state to have brought forth her divine son. If the mother was a tree, the son must have been recognized as the ŒMan of the branch." Ibid pg 97



The Yule log was considered the dead stock of Nimrod (or Tammuz, depending on the specific nation involved), deified as the sun god, but cut down by his enemies; the Christmas tree is Nimrod revived - the slain god come to life again.


http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usma&c=holidays&id=1991


Easter gets its name from the Teutonic goddess of spring and the dawn, whose name is spelled Oestre or Eastre (the origin of the word "east" comes from various Germanic, Austro-Hungarian words for dawn that share the root for the word "aurora" which means " to shine"). Modern pagans have generally accepted the spelling "Ostara" which honors this goddess as our word for the Vernal Equinox. The 1974 edition of Webster's New World Dictionary defines Easter thus: "orig., name of pagan vernal festival almost coincident in date with paschal festival of the church; Eastre, dawn goddess; 1. An annual Christian festival celebrating the resurrection of Jesus, held on the first Sunday after the date of the first full moon that occurs on or after March 21." The Vernal Equinox usually falls somewhere between March 19th and 22nd (note that the dictionary only mentions March 21st, as opposed to the date of the actual Equinox), and depending upon when the first full moon on or after the Equinox occurs, Easter falls sometime between late-March and mid-April.

[tailfins]

They are Pagan symbols... so the answer to the question you pose is YES. They are PAGAN symbols, not OCCULTIST as you try to disparage them to be.

Christmas was placed on the Pagan Holiday of YULE. The Tree is a symbol of That Festival.


http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/holidays2.htm (http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/holidays2.htm)


It is beyond doubt that Christmas was originally a pagan festival. The time of the year and the ceremonies with which it is still celebrated, prove its origin.

Isis, the Egyptian title for the "queen of heaven," gave birth to a son at this very time, about the time of the winter solstice. The term "Yule" is the Chaldee (Babylonian) name for "infant" or "little child."

This pagan festival not only commemorated the figurative birthday of the sun in the renewal of its course, but it also was celebrated (on December 24) among the Sabeans of Arabia, as the birthday of the "Lord Moon."

In Babylon, where the sun (Baal) was the object of worship, Tammuz was considered the incarnation of the Sun.




"In the Hindu mythology, which is admitted to be essentially Babylonian, this comes out very distinctly. There, Surya, or the Sun, is represented as being incarnate, and born for the purpose of subduing the enemies of the gods, who without such a birth, could not have been subdued." Ibid pg 96




There are many other Christmas counterparts of the Babylonian winter solstice festival, such as: 1) candles lighted on Christmas eve and used throughout the festival season were equally lighted by the Pagans on the eve of the festival of the Babylonian god, to do honor to him, 2) the Christmas tree was equally common in Pagan Rome and Pagan Egypt. In Egypt that tree was the palm tree; in Rome it was the fir. The tree denoted the Pagan Messiah.




"The mother of Adonis, the Sun God and great mediatorial divinity, was mystically said to have been changed into a tree, and when in that state to have brought forth her divine son. If the mother was a tree, the son must have been recognized as the ŒMan of the branch." Ibid pg 97



The Yule log was considered the dead stock of Nimrod (or Tammuz, depending on the specific nation involved), deified as the sun god, but cut down by his enemies; the Christmas tree is Nimrod revived - the slain god come to life again.


http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usma&c=holidays&id=1991


Easter gets its name from the Teutonic goddess of spring and the dawn, whose name is spelled Oestre or Eastre (the origin of the word "east" comes from various Germanic, Austro-Hungarian words for dawn that share the root for the word "aurora" which means " to shine"). Modern pagans have generally accepted the spelling "Ostara" which honors this goddess as our word for the Vernal Equinox. The 1974 edition of Webster's New World Dictionary defines Easter thus: "orig., name of pagan vernal festival almost coincident in date with paschal festival of the church; Eastre, dawn goddess; 1. An annual Christian festival celebrating the resurrection of Jesus, held on the first Sunday after the date of the first full moon that occurs on or after March 21." The Vernal Equinox usually falls somewhere between March 19th and 22nd (note that the dictionary only mentions March 21st, as opposed to the date of the actual Equinox), and depending upon when the first full moon on or after the Equinox occurs, Easter falls sometime between late-March and mid-April.

Christians should take seriously information such as that above and seriously reconsider what they celebrate. While the Amish and Mennonites have what seems to be an impossible to live lifestyle, they haven't succumbed to things like this. It makes you kind of wonder. I just use the word occult as a handy way to refer to such things, I guess one could also refer to it as sorcery as the King James Bible does.

[BillyBob]

YOU have been suggesting that pagan beliefs are retlated to the occult, Not I

I have asked a question. Big difference.





Just because YOU don't think about them does not change the fact that the only purpose of bringing a tree into your home for the winter solstice was to appease the wood sprites, which goes against Holy scripture. Ignorance of your actions does NOT excuse YOUR actions..... It may justify them in your mind, but you're still wrong!!!!!!!

The 'wood sprites' can go fuck themselves for all I care. It's just a christmas tree, nothing more.

[Voted4Reagan]

I have asked a question. Big difference.






The 'wood sprites' can go fuck themselves for all I care. It's just a christmas tree, nothing more.

no, It's a YULE TREE, a symbol co-opted from pagan beliefs to allow for a more familiar acceptance of the christian faith by those who were being converted. The Christians set it up that way to include Pagan symbols so that the transition was easier and more likely to be accepted in the long term.

Eggs, Bunnies, Trees, Yule Logs, Holly and Mistletoe all were pagan symbols long before Christ was born.

[tailfins]

no, It's a YULE TREE, a symbol co-opted from pagan beliefs to allow for a more familiar acceptance of the christian faith by those who were being converted. The Christians set it up that way to include Pagan symbols so that the transition was easier and more likely to be accepted in the long term.

Eggs, Bunnies, Trees, Yule Logs, Holly and Mistletoe all were pagan symbols long before Christ was born.

I believe you on this one. It's a corruption of the faith to be seriously looked at. The Puritans didn't cross the Atlantic because they like boats.

[Voted4Reagan]

No, I was right the first time.

Like I said, I don't care what pagan traditions were adopted by Christians, they have long since ceased to be pagan. Except maybe for the cool fish head hat the pope wears. That thing ROCKS!


http://www.collectmyflock.com/gif__POPE_FISH_HEAD_HAT__01.jpe

WRONG AGAIN... The Mitre is worn by many Catholic and non-Catholic faiths including Lutherans, Anglicans and Eastern Right and Greek Orthodox faiths.

You really should research things before you speak.. you are looking quite foolish here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitre

It is a Christian Symbol...Not specifically Catholic.The mitre (/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)ˈ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)m (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)aɪ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)t (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ər (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English); Greek: μίτρα, "headband" or "turban"), also spelled miter, is a type of headgear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headgear) now known as the traditional, ceremonial head-dress of bishops (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop) and certain abbots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbot) in the Roman Catholic Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church), as well as in the Anglican Communion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Communion), some Lutheran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheranism) churches, and also bishops and certain other clergy in the Eastern Orthodox churches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodoxy), Eastern Catholic Churches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches) and the Oriental Orthodox Churches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy).

[Voted4Reagan]

I believe you on this one. It's a corruption of the faith to be seriously looked at. The Puritans didn't cross the Atlantic because they like boats.

Where did I say it was a corruption? Do not put words in my mouth sir... I speak from a viewpoint that is completely independant of Bias in regards to faith. I do not thry to put forth that Roman Catholicism is the TRUE FAITH.

Roman Catholicism is the Christian Faith ADOPTED BY ROME in the 4th Century, 1100 years before the Protestant Schism and 700 years before the Eastern Schism with Constantinople.

To survive the Christian faith needed to convert people and by using familiar symbols made that an easy and acceptable transition. It isnt about corruption, it's about INCLUSION.

Do not change my words around again sir... you will NOT like the response you get.

[tailfins]

Where did I say it was a corruption? Do not put words in my mouth sir... I speak from a viewpoint that is completely independant of Bias in regards to faith. I do not thry to put forth that Roman Catholicism is the TRUE FAITH.

Roman Catholicism is the Christian Faith ADOPTED BY ROME in the 4th Century, 1100 years before the Protestant Schism and 700 years before the Eastern Schism with Constantinople.

To survive the Christian faith needed to convert people and by using familiar symbols made that an easy and acceptable transition. It isnt about corruption, it's about INCLUSION.

Do not change my words around again sir... you will NOT like the response you get.

Wow! You can't even take it when someone agrees with 90% of what you said but has a different interpretation. It's call an INTERPRETATION, not changing your words around. Don't try to differentiate yourself from the grumpy old men here at DP. I take them with a grain of salt because they have nothing better to do than to post here at DP or sway in their porch swing yelling at people who walk on their grass. I would have hoped you know better; perhaps you don't.

[Voted4Reagan]

Wow! You can't even take it when someone agrees with 90% of what you said but has a different interpretation. It's call an INTERPRETATION, not changing your words around. Don't try to differentiate yourself from the grumpy old men here at DP. I take them with a grain of salt because they have nothing better to do than to post here at DP or sway in their porch swing yelling at people who walk on their grass. I would have hoped you know better; perhaps you don't.

You equated my comment which was one of how Christians tried to be inclusive with Pagans by using familiar symbols of theirs to being a corruption of Christian Faith.

Your argument of equivalency is intellectually dishonest sir and tries to twist my words to suit your agenda.

If you want to call it Corruption, fine... do so.

But dont include me in that statement, I accept Pagans as people expressing their own unique religious beliefs. My own people come from Pagan roots and we still study them and tell the stories from the old days.

I do NOT ACCEPT you calling it a Corruption... I impune you for it. Make no uncertain doubt about it.

I dont care if you are Pagan, Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopal, Buddhist, Zora-Astrian, Scientologist or whatever you are... you have a rigght to worship without the interference or criticism of others of your chosen faith..

My motto is live and let live... and DO UNTO OTHERS.

Yours is NOT the TRUE WAY or the ONE WAY.... it is simply...YOUR WAY and makes it neither wrong nor right... simply the way you have chosen to practice. But dont criticize and demean the faith of others because it isnt the same as yours.





I

[Kathianne]

You equated my comment which was one of how Christians tried to be inclusive with Pagans by using familiar symbols of theirs to being a corruption of Christian Faith.

Your argument of equivalency is intellectually dishonest sir and tries to twist my words to suit your agenda.

If you want to call it Corruption, fine... do so.

But dont include me in that statement, I accept Pagans as people expressing their own unique religious beliefs. My own people come from Pagan roots and we still study them and tell the stories from the old days.

I do NOT ACCEPT you calling it a Corruption... I impune you for it. Make no uncertain doubt about it.

I dont care if you are Pagan, Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopal, Buddhist, Zora-Astrian, Scientologist or whatever you are... you have a rigght to worship without the interference or criticism of others of your chosen faith..

My motto is live and let live... and DO UNTO OTHERS.

Yours is NOT the TRUE WAY or the ONE WAY.... it is simply...YOUR WAY and makes it neither wrong nor right... simply the way you have chosen to practice. But dont criticize and demean the faith of others because it isnt the same as yours.





I

Well said. Indeed the sentiments regarding Catholics NOT saying their's is the ONE true church has been my experience for more than a half century. I never was taught that Protestant beliefs were wrong, just different. OTOH Protestant friends heard in their services that Catholics were NOT Christians, indeed it was a corrupted, occult faith, just as most literalists here imply, over and over again.

Rev has always been a tad different, whether discussing Catholics and other faiths. He KNOWS about his own beliefs and that is his. He seems less than ignorant of other religions and whether by choice or by instincts, has demonstrated tolerance for those.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Well said. Indeed the sentiments regarding Catholics NOT saying their's is the ONE true church has been my experience for more than a half century. I never was taught that Protestant beliefs were wrong, just different. OTOH Protestant friends heard in their services that Catholics were NOT Christians, indeed it was a corrupted, occult faith, just as most literalists here imply, over and over again.

Rev has always been a tad different, whether discussing Catholics and other faiths. He KNOWS about his own beliefs and that is his. He seems less than ignorant of other religions and whether by choice or by instincts, has demonstrated tolerance for those.

I have absolute intolerance for ONLY ONE religion= Islam.
My personal belief is that Jesus did indeed live, come to die for our sins and give us all a chance at having eternal life after DEATH. DEATH which is a much sought after state of punishment in the religion called Islam.
As to other religions I could care less what they do. I do however take great exception to this one religion that is out to destroy all the other religions and kill ALL that do not convert.
So much so that I have dedicated my life to informing all of its true nature and inherent evil.
However should Islam have a reformation and stop its primary goal of forcing the enslavement of all mankind to its lunacy by way of terror and murder I would ignore it too.
Not going to happen but had to point that out.
Nobody can point to my great dislike of any religion other than Islam and Satanism (which isnt really an organised religion anyways). -

Always been fascinated by the Greek, Roman and Norse mythologies. A lot of lessons to be learned by studying those as well.-- Tyr

[tailfins]

Well said. Indeed the sentiments regarding Catholics NOT saying their's is the ONE true church has been my experience for more than a half century. I never was taught that Protestant beliefs were wrong, just different. OTOH Protestant friends heard in their services that Catholics were NOT Christians, indeed it was a corrupted, occult faith, just as most literalists here imply, over and over again.

Rev has always been a tad different, whether discussing Catholics and other faiths. He KNOWS about his own beliefs and that is his. He seems less than ignorant of other religions and whether by choice or by instincts, has demonstrated tolerance for those.

I will give it this much: Too many people forget about something preached over and over about. One only gives out the information, it's God that does the saving. It's hard not to react when throwing out the lifeline and the person won't grab ahold of it. One of my favorite hymns comes to mind:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVwGoSn4YW0




Throw out the lifeline across the dark wave;
There is a brother whom someone should save;
Somebody’s brother! Oh, who then will dare
To throw out the lifeline, his peril to share?

Refrain:
Throw out the lifeline! Throw out the lifeline!
Someone is drifting away;
Throw out the lifeline! Throw out the lifeline!
Someone is sinking today.


Throw out the lifeline with hand quick and strong:
Why do you tarry, why linger so long?
See! he is sinking; oh, hasten today
And out with the life boat! Away, then, away!
Throw out the lifeline to danger-fraught men,
Sinking in anguish where you’ve never been;
Winds of temptation and billows of woe
Will soon hurl them out where the dark waters flow.
Soon will the season of rescue be o’er,
Soon will they drift to eternity’s shore;
Haste, then, my brother, no time for delay,
But throw out the lifeline and save them today.
This is the lifeline, oh, tempest-tossed men,
Baffled by waves of temptation and sin;
Wild winds of passion, your strength cannot brave,
But Jesus is mighty, and Jesus can save.
Jesus is able! To you who are driv’n
Farther and farther from God and from Heav’n,
Helpless and hopeless, o’erwhelmed by the wave,
We throw out the lifeline—’tis, “Jesus can save.”
This is the lifeline, oh, grasp it today!
See, you are recklessly drifting away;
Voices in warning, shout over the wave,
Oh, grasp the strong lifeline, for Jesus can save.

[cadet]

the old testament fills that out
Deuteronomy 18:10-12
"10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you."

Just throwing in my two cents worth. This passage has never made me say "Oh no! witchcraft!" It made me think more along the lines of, "Hmmm.... is it possible...."

[BillyBob]

WRONG AGAIN... The Mitre is worn by many Catholic and non-Catholic faiths including Lutherans, Anglicans and Eastern Right and Greek Orthodox faiths.

You really should research things before you speak.. you are looking quite foolish here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitre

It is a Christian Symbol...Not specifically Catholic.The mitre (/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)ˈ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)m (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)aɪ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)t (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ər (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English); Greek: μίτρα, "headband" or "turban"), also spelled miter, is a type of headgear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headgear) now known as the traditional, ceremonial head-dress of bishops (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop) and certain abbots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbot) in the Roman Catholic Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church), as well as in the Anglican Communion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Communion), some Lutheran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheranism) churches, and also bishops and certain other clergy in the Eastern Orthodox churches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodoxy), Eastern Catholic Churches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches) and the Oriental Orthodox Churches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy).


It's clearly a fish head hat.

[BillyBob]

no, It's a YULE TREE, a symbol co-opted from pagan beliefs to allow for a more familiar acceptance of the christian faith by those who were being converted. The Christians set it up that way to include Pagan symbols so that the transition was easier and more likely to be accepted in the long term.



It's a pine tree with lights on it. Most folks refer to it as a Christmas tree. There is nothing occultist about it.

[tailfins]

It's a pine tree with lights on it. Most folks refer to it as a Christmas tree. There is nothing occultist about it. Many Mennonites would disagree with you. I can't say they are wrong.

[BillyBob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_oA_OMsmZo

[BillyBob]

Well said. Indeed the sentiments regarding Catholics NOT saying their's is the ONE true church has been my experience for more than a half century. I never was taught that Protestant beliefs were wrong, just different. OTOH Protestant friends heard in their services that Catholics were NOT Christians, indeed it was a corrupted, occult faith, just as most literalists here imply, over and over again.

Rev has always been a tad different, whether discussing Catholics and other faiths. He KNOWS about his own beliefs and that is his. He seems less than ignorant of other religions and whether by choice or by instincts, has demonstrated tolerance for those.


Are we back to that, again? You've already gotten 2 threads shut down and now you're trying for a third?

[jimnyc]

Are we back to that, again? You've already gotten 2 threads shut down and now you're trying for a third?

She was not the reason the other threads were shut down. It's the bickering and off topic crap, part of which you contribute to.

[cadet]

It's a pine tree with lights on it. Most folks refer to it as a Christmas tree. There is nothing occultist about it.

"Give the forest sprites a home to live in during the winter. Put decorations on it for them to play with."
^^That's where that part started. Christians just wanted to make the pagans feel welcome.

And I'm even going to go so far as to tell you that if you read the bible, Jesus was born closer to may/june.

[tailfins]

She was not the reason the other threads were shut down. It's the bickering and off topic crap, part of which you contribute to.

All I'm trying to do here is shout from the mountain top: Stay far away from the occult; it is a lion seeking to devour you!

[revelarts]

Kathianne i appreciate the kind words earlier hope you don't feel personally put off by what follows.



It's clearly a fish head hat.

It's a pine tree with lights on it. Most folks refer to it as a Christmas tree. There is nothing occultist about it.
LOL you can't have it both ways BillyB.

If the pope hats got Dagon Fish Roots the Tree has Got it's historical Pagan roots as well.
If you want to ignore it fine, but don't claim it's not there.

........................
...Seems that Some Catholics want to Embrace some of the pagan elements that the RC Church collected over the years , that's their choice.
I have a REALL hard time understanding how that works when Christians in the 1st century were martyred by Romans, Jews and other cultures for being so EXCLUSIVE to Christ alone that they were some times called "atheist" becuase they did not acknowledge any of the multitude of pagan gods or practice any of their pagan traditions.

Some want to call it being inclusive,.... eek, ur urm..... All due respect, I disagree.
from what i read in scripture , it's at best compromise, at worse it's blasphemous and consorting with demons.
that's strong no doubt but frankly i don't consider everything the church picked up 400AD onward to be sacred. Seem to me What's 200AD backwards is the gold standard. That what the reformation was getting BACK to. The life and teaching of Jesus, the apostles and the 1st century Christians. They didn't have Christmas trees or pope hats or statues or prohibitions on marriage for priest or prohibitions on eating fish etc.. etc..
If folks want to embrace all that that's their choice.
But a lot of that stuff is clearly of pagan derivation, which we are told to frankly reject,
and clearly outside of the faith, "once delivered to the saints" as Saint Jude (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1:2-4&version=KJV) taked about.
That's Not say that Catholics are a'go'in2hell behind it, just that it seems to me at the least, a lot of unnecessary foreign baggage to wade through to get the Jesus.

[Voted4Reagan]

It's a pine tree with lights on it. Most folks refer to it as a Christmas tree. There is nothing occultist about it.

Your Willful Ignorance and disregard for a documented Fact is duly noted. Also... PAGAN does not mean OCCULTIST.

Pagans are not occultists...another disparaging comment you continue to make.

You've been here 3 weeks and you have pissed off the site owner and several of his closest friends as well as the majority of regular posters.

Quit while you're behind Billy Bob... Keep it up and I assure you it will not bode well...

Jim does not tolerate Disruptive folks around here.

Proceed at your own risk...

[Abbey Marie]

Wow. In three threads now, some people keep shouting, "I'm tolerant; your religion sucks". :poke:

[revelarts]

Just throwing in my two cents worth. This passage has never made me say "Oh no! witchcraft!" It made me think more along the lines of, "Hmmm.... is it possible...."

is what possible? i'm not following you.


Here's a passage from the book of acts that shows people who ONCE they Became Christians BURNED all of there Occult material. they didn't integrate it into their Christianity.
Why? the clear implication is that they understood that evil demonic forces were behind the sorcery and God with Jesus Christ are good and more powerful.


Acts 19:
13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?” 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

17 When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. 18 Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed what they had done. 19 A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas.20 In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power.

[Marcus Aurelius]

"Give the forest sprites a home to live in during the winter. Put decorations on it for them to play with."
^^That's where that part started. Christians just wanted to make the pagans feel welcome.

And I'm even going to go so far as to tell you that if you read the bible, Jesus was born closer to may/june.

http://www.tasgreetings.com/santasangel.htm

It was supposed to be a happy time, but it wasn't. Santa was really pissed.
It was Christmas Eve and NOTHING was going right. Mrs. Claus had burned all the Christmas cookies. The Elves were bitching about not getting paid for the overtime they had put in while making toys, and the reindeer had been drinking all afternoon and were dead drunk. They had taken the sleigh out for a spin earlier in the day and crashed it into a tree, breaking off one of the runners.

Santa was beside himself with anger. "I CAN'T believe it! I've got to deliver millions of presents all over the world in just a few hours from now and all my reindeer are drunk, my Elves are on strike and I don't even have a Christmas tree! I sent that stupid Little Angel out HOURS a go to find a tree and he isn't even back yet! What am I going to do?"
Just then the Little Angel opened the front door and stepped in from the snowy night, dragging a Christmas tree.
He says: "Yo, Santa, where do you want me to stick the Christmas Tree this year???"
And thus the tradition of Angels perched atop the Christmas trees came to pass. . . . .

[BillyBob]

"Give the forest sprites a home to live in during the winter. Put decorations on it for them to play with."
^^That's where that part started. Christians just wanted to make the pagans feel welcome.

And I'm even going to go so far as to tell you that if you read the bible, Jesus was born closer to may/june.




My Christmas tree has nothing to do with sprites or Jesus. It's a CHRISTMAS TREE.

[Marcus Aurelius]

My Christmas tree has nothing to do with sprites or Jesus. It's a CHRISTMAS TREE.

You have a Christmas tree, which you claim has nothing to do with Jesus Christ?


Are you high???

[BillyBob]

Your Willful Ignorance and disregard for a documented Fact is duly noted. Also... PAGAN does not mean OCCULTIST.

So what's the problem then? Are 'wood sprites' occultist or pagan?




Pagans are not occultists...another disparaging comment you continue to make.

Who am I disparaging, the pagans or the occultists? 'cause quite frankly, I don't give a flying crap about either of 'em.






You've been here 3 weeks and you have pissed off the site owner and several of his closest friends as well as the majority of regular posters.

Quit while you're behind Billy Bob... Keep it up and I assure you it will not bode well...

Jim does not tolerate Disruptive folks around here.

Proceed at your own risk...

Disruptive? I'm posting about the occult in a thread about the occult. And by the way, I'm not the topic of this thread so you might wanna get back to the topic before this thread gets closed because of you.

K, thanks.

[Voted4Reagan]

"Give the forest sprites a home to live in during the winter. Put decorations on it for them to play with."
^^That's where that part started. Christians just wanted to make the pagans feel welcome.

And I'm even going to go so far as to tell you that if you read the bible, Jesus was born closer to may/june.

cORRECT

[BillyBob]

You have a Christmas tree, which you claim has nothing to do with Jesus Christ?


Are you high???

Do atheists who celebrate Christmas and have a Christmas Tree celebrate Christ?


[duh?]

[Marcus Aurelius]

Do atheists who celebrate Christmas and have a Christmas Tree celebrate Christ?


[duh?]

If they are atheists, they are NOT celebrating 'Christmas'. Christmas is specifically the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, Son of God. Since atheists do not believe in God, it would not be logically possible for them to celebrate the birth of His Son.

In other words, you ARE high.

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by BillyBob http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=643426#post643426)
I fully understand that many pagan things were adopted by Christians, but that doesn't make them objects of the occult, which was my question.

I mean, when we get a Christmas tree, we don't use it to summon demons. Heck, we barely think about it from a Christian perspective, for that matter. It's just a traditional thing to do at Christmas time, no more than a decoration.


Yet, you imply denial for other religions to have traditions that may appear to you as 'pagan.' Emphasis is on the 'you,' I don't get a 'god' vibe from you. Heck, don't get much of a Christian vibe from you.

I grew up with my family having Xmas trees and having easter egg hunts. We did not sit around praying at those times.

I get a Christian vibe from BillyBob. Of course my main mission is not to judge posters. I can't see in Billybob what you claim to see.

[BillyBob]

If they are atheists, they are NOT celebrating 'Christmas'. Christmas is specifically the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, Son of God. Since atheists do not believe in God, it would not be logically possible for them to celebrate the birth of His Son.

In other words, you ARE high.


Put your crackpipe down and pay attention:


Why I celebrate Christmas, by the world's most famous atheist


Scientist and atheist Richard Dawkins has admitted he does celebrate Christmas - and enjoys singing traditional Christmas carols each festive season.
The writer and evolutionary biologist told singer Jarvis Cocker that he happily wishes everyone a Merry Christmas - and used to have a tree when his daughter was younger.
Dawkins, one of the most famous atheists in the world, was interviewed by Sheffield born Cocker when he stepped in as a Christmas guest editor on Radio Four's Today programme.
'I am perfectly happy on Christmas day to say Merry Christmas to everybody,' Dawkins said. 'I might sing Christmas carols - once I was privileged to be invited to Kings College, Cambridge, for their Christmas carols and loved it.


'I actually love most of the genuine Christmas carols. I can't bear Jingle Bells and Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer and you might think from that that I was religious, that I can't bear the ones that make no mention of religion. But I just think they are dreadful tunes and even more dreadful words. I like the traditional Christmas carols.'
Cocker, the former frontman for Britpop band Pulp, said he was also a fan of Christmas traditions.
'I am the same in a way,' he told Dawkins. 'I really like the kind of peripheral things about Christmas. I like the smell of tangerines and the smell of the tree and to pull crackers.'
Dawkins said his family had a typical Christmas celebration each year like so many others.


'We are not kill joys, we are not scrooges,' he said. 'We give each other presents and when my daughter was a bit younger we would have a tree. We don't now.
'We go to my sister's house for Christmas lunch which is a lovely big family occasion. Everybody thoroughly enjoys it. No church of course.
Dawkins, who pulled a cracker with Cocker on Tuesday's Today programme, said he drew the line at dressing up as Father Christmas.
And he said even as a child his questioning mind made him unpopular with other parents.
'My very first Christmas, maybe my second Christmas, there was a man called Sam who apparently dressed up as Father Christmas,' he said. 'All the children loved it, all completely fooled by Father Christmas being there.


'Eventually he said: 'Ho ho ho, it's time for me to go,' back to Greenland or wherever he comes from, so he left. Then I, the youngest of all of them, said: 'Sam's gone' and completely gave the game away to all the other children.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1100842/Why-I-celebrate-Christmas-worlds-famous-atheist.html#ixzz2VHhIbs5G

[Marcus Aurelius]

Put your crackpipe down and pay attention:


Why I celebrate Christmas, by the world's most famous atheist




Scientist and atheist Richard Dawkins has admitted he does celebrate Christmas - and enjoys singing traditional Christmas carols each festive season.
The writer and evolutionary biologist told singer Jarvis Cocker that he happily wishes everyone a Merry Christmas - and used to have a tree when his daughter was younger.
Dawkins, one of the most famous atheists in the world, was interviewed by Sheffield born Cocker when he stepped in as a Christmas guest editor on Radio Four's Today programme.
'I am perfectly happy on Christmas day to say Merry Christmas to everybody,' Dawkins said. 'I might sing Christmas carols - once I was privileged to be invited to Kings College, Cambridge, for their Christmas carols and loved it.


'I actually love most of the genuine Christmas carols. I can't bear Jingle Bells and Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer and you might think from that that I was religious, that I can't bear the ones that make no mention of religion. But I just think they are dreadful tunes and even more dreadful words. I like the traditional Christmas carols.'
Cocker, the former frontman for Britpop band Pulp, said he was also a fan of Christmas traditions.
'I am the same in a way,' he told Dawkins. 'I really like the kind of peripheral things about Christmas. I like the smell of tangerines and the smell of the tree and to pull crackers.'
Dawkins said his family had a typical Christmas celebration each year like so many others.


'We are not kill joys, we are not scrooges,' he said. 'We give each other presents and when my daughter was a bit younger we would have a tree. We don't now.
'We go to my sister's house for Christmas lunch which is a lovely big family occasion. Everybody thoroughly enjoys it. No church of course.
Dawkins, who pulled a cracker with Cocker on Tuesday's Today programme, said he drew the line at dressing up as Father Christmas.
And he said even as a child his questioning mind made him unpopular with other parents.
'My very first Christmas, maybe my second Christmas, there was a man called Sam who apparently dressed up as Father Christmas,' he said. 'All the children loved it, all completely fooled by Father Christmas being there.


'Eventually he said: 'Ho ho ho, it's time for me to go,' back to Greenland or wherever he comes from, so he left. Then I, the youngest of all of them, said: 'Sam's gone' and completely gave the game away to all the other children.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1100842/Why-I-celebrate-Christmas-worlds-famous-atheist.html#ixzz2VHhIbs5G

Dumb ass, you're missing the point, as usual.

If someone does not believe in God, they cannot possibly celebrate the birth of His Son. Sure, they can celebrate 'something' on that same day, give gifts, sing songs, whatever, but they are not celebrating 'Christmas', regardless of them 'calling' it 'Christmas'. Period.

[Voted4Reagan]

Do atheists who celebrate Christmas and have a Christmas Tree celebrate Christ?


[duh?]


Atheists dont Celebrate Christmas...

Are you really that oblivious to what an atheist is?

you are an absolute Troll BillyBobby

[BillyBob]

Dumb ass, you're missing the point, as usual.

If someone does not believe in God, they cannot possibly celebrate the birth of His Son. Sure, they can celebrate 'something' on that same day, give gifts, sing songs, whatever, but they are not celebrating 'Christmas', regardless of them 'calling' it 'Christmas'. Period.



Sorry dumbfuck, you must have missed this the first time round. Or maybe you really are as stupid as you appear. [that gets my vote]




Why I celebrate Christmas, by the world's most famous atheist


Scientist and atheist Richard Dawkins has admitted he does celebrate Christmas - and enjoys singing traditional Christmas carols each festive season.
The writer and evolutionary biologist told singer Jarvis Cocker that he happily wishes everyone a Merry Christmas - and used to have a tree when his daughter was younger.
Dawkins, one of the most famous atheists in the world, was interviewed by Sheffield born Cocker when he stepped in as a Christmas guest editor on Radio Four's Today programme.
'I am perfectly happy on Christmas day to say Merry Christmas to everybody,' Dawkins said. 'I might sing Christmas carols - once I was privileged to be invited to Kings College, Cambridge, for their Christmas carols and loved it.


'I actually love most of the genuine Christmas carols. I can't bear Jingle Bells and Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer and you might think from that that I was religious, that I can't bear the ones that make no mention of religion. But I just think they are dreadful tunes and even more dreadful words. I like the traditional Christmas carols.'
Cocker, the former frontman for Britpop band Pulp, said he was also a fan of Christmas traditions.
'I am the same in a way,' he told Dawkins. 'I really like the kind of peripheral things about Christmas. I like the smell of tangerines and the smell of the tree and to pull crackers.'
Dawkins said his family had a typical Christmas celebration each year like so many others.


'We are not kill joys, we are not scrooges,' he said. 'We give each other presents and when my daughter was a bit younger we would have a tree. We don't now.
'We go to my sister's house for Christmas lunch which is a lovely big family occasion. Everybody thoroughly enjoys it. No church of course.
Dawkins, who pulled a cracker with Cocker on Tuesday's Today programme, said he drew the line at dressing up as Father Christmas.
And he said even as a child his questioning mind made him unpopular with other parents.
'My very first Christmas, maybe my second Christmas, there was a man called Sam who apparently dressed up as Father Christmas,' he said. 'All the children loved it, all completely fooled by Father Christmas being there.


'Eventually he said: 'Ho ho ho, it's time for me to go,' back to Greenland or wherever he comes from, so he left. Then I, the youngest of all of them, said: 'Sam's gone' and completely gave the game away to all the other children.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...#ixzz2VHhIbs5G (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1100842/Why-I-celebrate-Christmas-worlds-famous-atheist.html#ixzz2VHhIbs5G)

[BillyBob]

Atheists dont Celebrate Christmas...

Are you really that oblivious to what an atheist is?

you are an absolute Troll BillyBobby


Why I celebrate Christmas, by the world's most famous atheist


Scientist and atheist Richard Dawkins has admitted he does celebrate Christmas - and enjoys singing traditional Christmas carols each festive season.
The writer and evolutionary biologist told singer Jarvis Cocker that he happily wishes everyone a Merry Christmas - and used to have a tree when his daughter was younger.
Dawkins, one of the most famous atheists in the world, was interviewed by Sheffield born Cocker when he stepped in as a Christmas guest editor on Radio Four's Today programme.
'I am perfectly happy on Christmas day to say Merry Christmas to everybody,' Dawkins said. 'I might sing Christmas carols - once I was privileged to be invited to Kings College, Cambridge, for their Christmas carols and loved it.


'I actually love most of the genuine Christmas carols. I can't bear Jingle Bells and Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer and you might think from that that I was religious, that I can't bear the ones that make no mention of religion. But I just think they are dreadful tunes and even more dreadful words. I like the traditional Christmas carols.'
Cocker, the former frontman for Britpop band Pulp, said he was also a fan of Christmas traditions.
'I am the same in a way,' he told Dawkins. 'I really like the kind of peripheral things about Christmas. I like the smell of tangerines and the smell of the tree and to pull crackers.'
Dawkins said his family had a typical Christmas celebration each year like so many others.


'We are not kill joys, we are not scrooges,' he said. 'We give each other presents and when my daughter was a bit younger we would have a tree. We don't now.
'We go to my sister's house for Christmas lunch which is a lovely big family occasion. Everybody thoroughly enjoys it. No church of course.
Dawkins, who pulled a cracker with Cocker on Tuesday's Today programme, said he drew the line at dressing up as Father Christmas.
And he said even as a child his questioning mind made him unpopular with other parents.
'My very first Christmas, maybe my second Christmas, there was a man called Sam who apparently dressed up as Father Christmas,' he said. 'All the children loved it, all completely fooled by Father Christmas being there.


'Eventually he said: 'Ho ho ho, it's time for me to go,' back to Greenland or wherever he comes from, so he left. Then I, the youngest of all of them, said: 'Sam's gone' and completely gave the game away to all the other children.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...#ixzz2VHhIbs5G (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1100842/Why-I-celebrate-Christmas-worlds-famous-atheist.html#ixzz2VHhIbs5G)

[cadet]

My Christmas tree has nothing to do with sprites or Jesus. It's a CHRISTMAS TREE.

Doesn't matter. You may as well know the origin of why you even have that evergreen sitting in your living room.


http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm

I. When was Jesus born?
A. Popular myth puts his birth on December 25th in the year 1 C.E.
B. The New Testament gives no date or year for Jesus’ birth. The earliest gospel – St. Mark’s, written about 65 CE – begins with the baptism of an adult Jesus. This suggests that the earliest Christians lacked interest in or knowledge of Jesus’ birthdate.
C. The year of Jesus birth was determined by Dionysius Exiguus, a Scythian monk, “abbot of a Roman monastery. His calculation went as follows:
a. In the Roman, pre-Christian era, years were counted from ab urbe condita (“the founding of the City” [Rome]). Thus 1 AUC signifies the year Rome was founded, 5 AUC signifies the 5th year of Rome’s reign, etc.
b. Dionysius received a tradition that the Roman emperor Augustus reigned 43 years, and was followed by the emperor Tiberius.
c. Luke 3:1,23 indicates that when Jesus turned 30 years old, it was the 15th year of Tiberius reign.
d. If Jesus was 30 years old in Tiberius’ reign, then he lived 15 years under Augustus (placing Jesus birth in Augustus’ 28th year of reign).
e. Augustus took power in 727 AUC. Therefore, Dionysius put Jesus birth in 754 AUC.
f. However, Luke 1:5 places Jesus’ birth in the days of Herod, and Herod died in 750 AUC – four years before the year in which Dionysius places Jesus birth.
D. Joseph A. Fitzmyer – Professor Emeritus of Biblical Studies at the Catholic University of America, member of the Pontifical Biblical Commission, and former president of the Catholic Biblical Association – writing in the Catholic Church’s official commentary on the New Testament[1] (http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm#_ftn1), writes about the date of Jesus’ birth, “Though the year [of Jesus birth is not reckoned with certainty, the birth did not occur in AD 1. The Christian era, supposed to have its starting point in the year of Jesus birth, is based on a miscalculation introduced ca. 533 by Dionysius Exiguus.”
E. The DePascha Computus, an anonymous document believed to have been written in North Africa around 243 CE, placed Jesus birth on March 28. Clement, a bishop of Alexandria (d. ca. 215 CE), thought Jesus was born on November 18. Based on historical records, Fitzmyer guesses that Jesus birth occurred on September 11, 3 BCE.

II. How Did Christmas Come to Be Celebrated on December 25?
A. Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration. The festival began when Roman authorities chose “an enemy of the Roman people” to represent the “Lord of Misrule.” Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival’s conclusion, December 25th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman.
B. The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival’s observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits (still produced in some English and most German bakeries during the Christmas season).
C. In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.[2] (http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm#_ftn2)
D. The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus’ birthday.
E. Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, “In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior’s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been.” The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.
F. The Reverend Increase Mather of Boston observed in 1687 that “the early Christians who first observed the Nativity on December 25 did not do so thinking that Christ was born in that Month, but because the Heathens’ Saturnalia was at that time kept in Rome, and they were willing to have those Pagan Holidays metamorphosed into Christian ones.”[3] (http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm#_ftn3) Because of its known pagan origin, Christmas was banned by the Puritans and its observance was illegal in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681.[4] (http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm#_ftn4) However, Christmas was and still is celebrated by most Christians.
G. Some of the most depraved customs of the Saturnalia carnival were intentionally revived by the Catholic Church in 1466 when Pope Paul II, for the amusement of his Roman citizens, forced Jews to race naked through the streets of the city. An eyewitness account reports, “Before they were to run, the Jews were richly fed, so as to make the race more difficult for them and at the same time more amusing for spectators. They ran… amid Rome’s taunting shrieks and peals of laughter, while the Holy Father stood upon a richly ornamented balcony and laughed heartily.”[5] (http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm#_ftn5)
H. As part of the Saturnalia carnival throughout the 18th and 19th centuries CE, rabbis of the ghetto inRome were forced to wear clownish outfits and march through the city streets to the jeers of the crowd, pelted by a variety of missiles. When the Jewish community of Rome sent a petition in1836 to Pope Gregory XVI begging him to stop the annual Saturnalia abuse of the Jewish community, he responded, “It is not opportune to make any innovation.”[6] (http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm#_ftn6) On December 25, 1881, Christian leaders whipped the Polish masses into Antisemitic frenzies that led to riots across the country. In Warsaw 12 Jews were brutally murdered, huge numbers maimed, and many Jewish women were raped. Two million rubles worth of property was destroyed.

III. The Origins of Christmas Customs
A. The Origin of Christmas Tree
Just as early Christians recruited Roman pagans by associating Christmas with the Saturnalia, so too worshippers of the Asheira cult and its offshoots were recruited by the Church sanctioning “Christmas Trees”.[7] (http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm#_ftn7) Pagans had long worshipped trees in the forest, or brought them into their homes and decorated them, and this observance was adopted and painted with a Christian veneer by the Church.
B. The Origin of Mistletoe
Norse mythology recounts how the god Balder was killed using a mistletoe arrow by his rival god Hoder while fighting for the female Nanna. Druid rituals use mistletoe to poison their human sacrificial victim.[8] (http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm#_ftn8) The Christian custom of “kissing under the mistletoe” is a later synthesis of the sexual license of Saturnalia with the Druidic sacrificial cult.[9] (http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm#_ftn9)
C. The Origin of Christmas Presents
In pre-Christian Rome, the emperors compelled their most despised citizens to bring offerings and gifts during the Saturnalia (in December) and Kalends (in January). Later, this ritual expanded to include gift-giving among the general populace. The Catholic Church gave this custom a Christian flavor by re-rooting it in the supposed gift-giving of Saint Nicholas (see below).[10] (http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm#_ftn10)
D. The Origin of Santa Claus
a. Nicholas was born in Parara, Turkey in 270 CE and later became Bishop of Myra. He died in 345 CE on December 6th. He was only named a saint in the 19th century.
b. Nicholas was among the most senior bishops who convened the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE and created the New Testament. The text they produced portrayed Jews as “the children of the devil”[11] (http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm#_ftn11) who sentenced Jesus to death.
c. In 1087, a group of sailors who idolized Nicholas moved his bones from Turkey to a sanctuary in Bari, Italy. There Nicholas supplanted a female boon-giving deity called The Grandmother, or Pasqua Epiphania, who used to fill the children's stockings with her gifts. The Grandmother was ousted from her shrine at Bari, which became the center of the Nicholas cult. Members of this group gave each other gifts during a pageant they conducted annually on the anniversary of Nicholas’ death, December 6.
d. The Nicholas cult spread north until it was adopted by German and Celtic pagans. These groups worshipped a pantheon led by Woden –their chief god and the father of Thor, Balder, and Tiw. Woden had a long, white beard and rode a horse through the heavens one evening each Autumn. When Nicholas merged with Woden, he shed his Mediterranean appearance, grew a beard, mounted a flying horse, rescheduled his flight for December, and donned heavy winter clothing.
e. In a bid for pagan adherents in Northern Europe, the Catholic Church adopted the Nicholas cult and taught that he did (and they should) distribute gifts on December 25th instead of December 6th.
f. In 1809, the novelist Washington Irving (most famous his The Legend of Sleepy Hollow andRip Van Winkle) wrote a satire of Dutch culture entitled Knickerbocker History. The satire refers several times to the white bearded, flying-horse riding Saint Nicholas using his Dutch name, Santa Claus.
g. Dr. Clement Moore, a professor at Union Seminary, read Knickerbocker History, and in 1822 he published a poem based on the character Santa Claus: “Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the house, not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse. The stockings were hung by the chimney with care, in the hope that Saint Nicholas soon would be there…” Moore innovated by portraying a Santa with eight reindeer who descended through chimneys.
h. The Bavarian illustrator Thomas Nast almost completed the modern picture of Santa Claus. From 1862 through 1886, based on Moore’s poem, Nast drew more than 2,200 cartoon images of Santa for Harper’s Weekly. Before Nast, Saint Nicholas had been pictured as everything from a stern looking bishop to a gnome-like figure in a frock. Nast also gave Santa a home at the North Pole, his workshop filled with elves, and his list of the good and bad children of the world. All Santa was missing was his red outfit.
i. In 1931, the Coca Cola Corporation contracted the Swedish commercial artist Haddon Sundblom to create a coke-drinking Santa. Sundblom modeled his Santa on his friend Lou Prentice, chosen for his cheerful, chubby face. The corporation insisted that Santa’s fur-trimmed suit be bright, Coca Cola red. And Santa was born – a blend of Christian crusader, pagan god, and commercial idol.

[BillyBob]

Doesn't matter. You may as well know the origin of why you even have that evergreen sitting in your living room.



I have an evergreen sitting in my living room because it is a Christmas tradition. It's a tree....with lights. Big deal.

[cadet]

I have an evergreen sitting in my living room because it is a Christmas tradition. It's a tree....with lights. Big deal.

But we're supposed to stay away from pagan things, right?

[BillyBob]

But we're supposed to stay away from pagan things, right?


While it may mean something else to pagans, to me its just a pine tree with lights on it. Just because pagans used pine trees in the past does not mean they are forever tainted.

I can think of a very appropriate scripture for this, Romans 14. Very appropriate.

[BillyBob]

Here is Romans 14. For those who have ears, let them hear.






14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.



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[revelarts]

While it may mean something else to pagans, to me its just a pine tree with lights on it. Just because pagans used pine trees in the past does not mean they are forever tainted.

I can think of a very appropriate scripture for this, Romans 14. Very appropriate.

You know BillYB that's perfectly fine.
but you can't jump down on the heads of Catholics for their fish head pope hat etc etcc.
Since they can use the same verse to get around the pagan occult history of whatever they like as well.

[BillyBob]

You know BillYB that's perfectly fine.
but you can't jump down on the heads of Catholics for their fish head pope hat etc etcc.
Since they can use the same verse to get around the pagan occult history of whatever they like as well.

I don't mind the Fish head hat, I'm starting to like it. I may even get one of my own. And if it had pagan origins, that doesn't mean it still represents paganism. Right?

[BillyBob]

Since they can use the same verse to get around the pagan occult history of whatever they like as well.

As long as what they are now doing with it is for the Lord.

[aboutime]

Marcus. BB has never answered the question about whether he was born as dumb as he presents himself here, or if he just learned it.

[tailfins]

Your Willful Ignorance and disregard for a documented Fact is duly noted. Also... PAGAN does not mean OCCULTIST.

Pagans are not occultists...another disparaging comment you continue to make.

You've been here 3 weeks and you have pissed off the site owner and several of his closest friends as well as the majority of regular posters.

Quit while you're behind Billy Bob... Keep it up and I assure you it will not bode well...

Jim does not tolerate Disruptive folks around here.

Proceed at your own risk...

Really? Why? Don't try to sell us a dead horse. It's a good, generic term to effectively communicate sorcery, fortune telling, astrology, etc.

[Voted4Reagan]

I have an evergreen sitting in my living room because it is a Christmas tradition. It's a tree....with lights. Big deal.

It's a YULE Tradition that predates the Birth of Christ by several thousand Years.

It's a PAGAN TRADITION adopted by The Christian Faith.

You are celebrating the Pagan Festival of YULE.

and that Festival celebrated BAAL...

Jesus was born in MAY

[BillyBob]

It's a YULE Tradition that predates the Birth of Christ by several thousand Years.

It's a PAGAN TRADITION adopted by The Christian Faith.

You are celebrating the Pagan Festival of YULE.

and that Festival celebrated BAAL...

Jesus was born in MAY


No, it's a christmas tree. I'm celebrating the holiday of Christmas.

[revelarts]

As long as what they are now doing with it is for the Lord.

that's what they say.
I can't make any good/wholesome/spiritual connecting via the hat or the tree with Jesus myself but some folks say they can. Or at least don't think it gets in the way.
Some folks are very emotional attached to the trees, winter festivals and such. -coughBBcough-
The men in woman Christian believers in Acts burned their occult materials.

But it's between them and the Lord.


If old the false gods pagan festivals, rituals, ornaments and costumes somehow brings one closer to Jesus in a way the 1st century believers didn't need well..
i don't buy it but... :shrug:

[Voted4Reagan]

No, it's a christmas tree. I'm celebrating the holiday of Christmas.

With a Pagan Symbol in your Living room and a Pagan Symbol burning in your fireplace...

Christianity STOLE the symbol of the Tree from Pagans... And the Yule Log, and Mistletoe, and the colors Red and Green.

Welcome to the community of Pagans Billy Bob.... we'll get you a spell book and wand in a little bit.

He's a Practicing Pagan and didn't know it.

Has a Nice Ring... BillyBobby the Warlock... Kinda catchy, Huh Folks?

[BillyBob]

With a Pagan Symbol in your Living room and a Pagan Symbol burning in your fireplace...

A log is a pagan symbol? So any person who uses his fireplace is a pagan? Is that what you're really trying to sell here?





Christianity STOLE the symbol of the Tree from Pagans... And the Yule Log, and Mistletoe, and the colors Red and Green.

Welcome to the community of Pagans Billy Bob.... we'll get you a spell book and wand in a little bit.

He's a Practicing Pagan and didn't know it.

Has a Nice Ring... BillyBobby the Warlock... Kinda catchy, Huh Folks?

All people who have Christmas trees are warlocks? LOL

[Voted4Reagan]

A log is a pagan symbol? So any person who uses his fireplace is a pagan? Is that what you're really trying to sell here?






All people who have Christmas trees are warlocks? LOL

Famous Modern Pagans

*Alejandro Jodorowsky (Filmmaker, Author) Adam Henderson (Musician) *Aldous Huxley (Author) Alice Walker (Author) Allison Hannigan (Actress) *Arun John (Author) Audre Lorde (Author, Activist) *Avram Davidson (Author) Avril Lavigne (Singer)
*BILLYBOBBY (DebatePolicy Troll and Warlock) *Brian Walsh (Screenwriter) Brigitte Nielsen (Actress) Camille Paglia (Author, Columnist, Feminist) Candia Ridley (Musician) *Chas S. Clifton (Sociologist) Chelsea Quinn Yarbo (Author) Chrissie Hynde (Singer, Songwriter) *Claudia Pastorino (Italian Pop Singer) Cletus T Judd (Singer, Comedian) Cree Summer AKA Cree Summer-Francks (Actress, Singer) Cybill Shepherd (Actress) *Cynthia Joyce Clay (Author) *D T Steiner (Author) *David J Rust (Journalist) Deborah Harry (Singer, Actress) Deepak Chopra (Author) Diana Paxson (Author) Don Francks (Actor) *Eric Steven Raymond (Computer Programmer, Author) Erica Jong (Author) Fairuza Balk (Actress) Fiona Horne (Musician) Florence Farr (Actress) *Franz Bardon (Magician) Fred Durst (Musician) Raised Wiccan Fritz Leiber (Author) Gabriel Byrne (Actor) Gael Baudino (Author) *George Lucas (Director) George Takei (Actor) *H P Lovecrat (Author) Hayao Miyazaki (Writer, Director) Hiroshi Inagaki (Actor, Director) Ian Anderson (Musician) *J M DeMatteis (Author) *Jeanne Robinson (Author) Jeff McBride (Magician) Jimmy Page (Musician) *Jonathon Barry (Author) Juzo Itami (Director) Karri Allrich (Author) Kate Orman (Author) *Kathryn A Graham (Author) *Kim Stanley Robinson (Author) Louise Robey (Actress) Luisah Teish (Author) *M Night Shyamalan (Screenwriter, Director) Maggie Shayne (Author) *Margot Adler (Author, Journalist, NPR Correspondent) Marianne Williamson (Author) *Marion Woolley (Columnist, Runs Cardiff's Deaf Theatre) *Maya Deren (Filmmaker) Mercedes Lackey (Author) *Michael McKenny (Author) Michael Tobias (Producer, Director) Michelle Morgan (Sting's Consultant) *Morwynn Rooke (Poet) Nicola Griffith (Author) Oberon Zell-Ravenheart (Activist) Olympia Dukakais (Actress) Pallavi Kasliwal (Magician) Patricia Kennealy Morrison (Author) *Patrick Califia (Author) Rachel Hunter (Supermodel, Actress) Rainbow Sun Francks (Actor) Reg Keating (Musician) Richard Gear (Actor) *Robert Graves (Poet, Historian) Robert Plant (Musician) Robin Tunney (Actress) *Ronald Hutton (Historian) Roseanne Barr (Actress) Rosemary Edghill (Author) Sirona Knight (Author) *Somerset Maugham (Author) Starhawk (Author) Stephen Grundy (Author) Storm Constantine (Author) Sully Erna (Musician) Susan Griffin (Artist) Sybil Leek (Author, Famous Red Cross Worker) Tamora Pierce (Author) Terry Pratchett (Author) Timothy Leary (Psychologist, Philosopher, Author) Tony McKormack (Musician) Vanessa Carlton (Singer) Vigo Mortensen (Actor) Virginia Woolf (Author)(used the term neo-Pagan to describe herself) W. Somerset Maugham (Author) Wendy Rule (Singer) William Butler Yeats (Poet) *William S. Burroughs (Author, Poet, Actor) Yoko Ono (Musician) Z. Budapest (Author) </pre>

[Voted4Reagan]

I'll take this witch!

Brigitte Nielsen!

http://celebgreat.com/pics/7e/83/Brigitte-Nielsen-0c974.jpg

[jimnyc]

Repeated fighting and reported posts on one another and claims of all kinds of crap. Fine. Stay off topic and everyone fight, just keep it here in the cage where it belongs.

[Abbey Marie]

With a Pagan Symbol in your Living room and a Pagan Symbol burning in your fireplace...

Christianity STOLE the symbol of the Tree from Pagans... And the Yule Log, and Mistletoe, and the colors Red and Green.

Welcome to the community of Pagans Billy Bob.... we'll get you a spell book and wand in a little bit.

He's a Practicing Pagan and didn't know it.

Has a Nice Ring... BillyBobby the Warlock... Kinda catchy, Huh Folks?

V4r, I'll bet that you know better than this kind of talk. The origins of a Yule, the Tree, etc., have to be posted by people because otherwise almost no one even knows what you are referring to. Trees are trees, and we can impute whatever meaning we want onto them. And no Christian I know thinks of a Christmas tree as in any way Pagan. For all you know, there was another religious use before your Pagan examples. But most importantly, it is the meaning we choose to give our symbols that counts. Telling Billy that he is a practicing Pagan because he puts up a Christmas tree is silly.

[BillyBob]

Famous Modern Pagans


You didn't answer the question/clarify your statement.

[BillyBob]

I'll take this witch!

Brigitte Nielsen!

http://celebgreat.com/pics/7e/83/Brigitte-Nielsen-0c974.jpg



I knew we'd find common ground!

[Abbey Marie]

Famous Modern Pagans


...
Richard Gear (Actor)...
It's spelled "Gere" and he's well-known for being Buddhist, no?

[BillyBob]

V4r, I'll bet that you know better than this kind of talk. The origins of a Yule, the Tree, etc., have to be posted by people because otherwise almost no one even knows what you are referring to. Trees are trees, and we can impute whatever meaning we want onto them. And no Christian I know thinks of a Christmas tree as in any way Pagan. For all you know, there was another religious use before your Pagan examples. But most importantly, it is the meaning we choose to give our symbols that counts. Telling Billy that he is a practicing Pagan because he puts up a Christmas tree is silly.


My next point was going to be something like:

OK, pine trees are pagan. Were they pagan before pagans or were they just pine trees. Can they ever be just pine trees again or are they destined to be forever pagan just because some ancient pagans once used them?

[revelarts]

Famous Modern Pagans



*Alejandro Jodorowsky (Filmmaker, Author) Adam Henderson (Musician) *Aldous Huxley (Author) Alice Walker (Author) Allison Hannigan (Actress) *Arun John (Author) Audre Lorde (Author, Activist) *Avram Davidson (Author) Avril Lavigne (Singer)
*BILLYBOBBY (DebatePolicy Troll and Warlock) *Brian Walsh (Screenwriter) Brigitte Nielsen (Actress) Camille Paglia (Author, Columnist, Feminist) Candia Ridley (Musician) *Chas S. Clifton (Sociologist) Chelsea Quinn Yarbo (Author) Chrissie Hynde (Singer, Songwriter) *Claudia Pastorino (Italian Pop Singer) Cletus T Judd (Singer, Comedian) Cree Summer AKA Cree Summer-Francks (Actress, Singer) Cybill Shepherd (Actress) *Cynthia Joyce Clay (Author) *D T Steiner (Author) *David J Rust (Journalist) Deborah Harry (Singer, Actress) Deepak Chopra (Author) Diana Paxson (Author) Don Francks (Actor) *Eric Steven Raymond (Computer Programmer, Author) Erica Jong (Author) Fairuza Balk (Actress) Fiona Horne (Musician) Florence Farr (Actress) *Franz Bardon (Magician) Fred Durst (Musician) Raised Wiccan Fritz Leiber (Author) Gabriel Byrne (Actor) Gael Baudino (Author) *George Lucas (Director) George Takei (Actor) *H P Lovecrat (Author) Hayao Miyazaki (Writer, Director) Hiroshi Inagaki (Actor, Director) Ian Anderson (Musician) *J M DeMatteis (Author) *Jeanne Robinson (Author) Jeff McBride (Magician) Jimmy Page (Musician) *Jonathon Barry (Author) Juzo Itami (Director) Karri Allrich (Author) Kate Orman (Author) *Kathryn A Graham (Author) *Kim Stanley Robinson (Author) Louise Robey (Actress) Luisah Teish (Author) *M Night Shyamalan (Screenwriter, Director) Maggie Shayne (Author) *Margot Adler (Author, Journalist, NPR Correspondent) Marianne Williamson (Author) *Marion Woolley (Columnist, Runs Cardiff's Deaf Theatre) *Maya Deren (Filmmaker) Mercedes Lackey (Author) *Michael McKenny (Author) Michael Tobias (Producer, Director) Michelle Morgan (Sting's Consultant) *Morwynn Rooke (Poet) Nicola Griffith (Author) Oberon Zell-Ravenheart (Activist) Olympia Dukakais (Actress) Pallavi Kasliwal (Magician) Patricia Kennealy Morrison (Author) *Patrick Califia (Author) Rachel Hunter (Supermodel, Actress) Rainbow Sun Francks (Actor) Reg Keating (Musician) Richard Gear (Actor) *Robert Graves (Poet, Historian) Robert Plant (Musician) Robin Tunney (Actress) *Ronald Hutton (Historian) Roseanne Barr (Actress) Rosemary Edghill (Author) Sirona Knight (Author) *Somerset Maugham (Author) Starhawk (Author) Stephen Grundy (Author) Storm Constantine (Author) Sully Erna (Musician) Susan Griffin (Artist) Sybil Leek (Author, Famous Red Cross Worker) Tamora Pierce (Author) Terry Pratchett (Author) Timothy Leary (Psychologist, Philosopher, Author) Tony McKormack (Musician) Vanessa Carlton (Singer) Vigo Mortensen (Actor) Virginia Woolf (Author)(used the term neo-Pagan to describe herself) W. Somerset Maugham (Author) Wendy Rule (Singer) William Butler Yeats (Poet) *William S. Burroughs (Author, Poet, Actor) Yoko Ono (Musician) Z. Budapest (Author)

that's the short list.
and those are the ones out of the closet.
And did you leave Oprah in that list?

And you didn't count the ones in Washington DC, i know a few of those people have to be consulting with "spirits" to come up with some of that stuff we're dealing with.

Heck Nancy Reagan Had occult practices going on in the White House

[revelarts]

I'll take this witch!

Brigitte Nielsen!

http://celebgreat.com/pics/7e/83/Brigitte-Nielsen-0c974.jpg

She's good looking but manoman shes not a woman your guys want live with,.
she was on a reality show i watched a few episodes of,... ah mean wholly molly she's real "special".

I've known some wiccian women and they are not as good looking as B.N. but at least they were rational human beings.

[BillyBob]

She's good looking but manoman shes not a woman your guys want live with,.
she was on a reality show i watched a few episodes of,... ah mean wholly molly she's real "special".

I've known some wiccian women and they are not as good looking as B.N. but at least they were rational human beings.


I'm sure I could tolerate her for an evening, as long as I can keep her from talking.

[BillyBob]

It's spelled "Gere" and he's well-known for being Buddhist, no?


Are buddhists pagans?

[BillyBob]

Bump for occultists!

[Voted4Reagan]

V4r, I'll bet that you know better than this kind of talk. The origins of a Yule, the Tree, etc., have to be posted by people because otherwise almost no one even knows what you are referring to. Trees are trees, and we can impute whatever meaning we want onto them. And no Christian I know thinks of a Christmas tree as in any way Pagan. For all you know, there was another religious use before your Pagan examples. But most importantly, it is the meaning we choose to give our symbols that counts. Telling Billy that he is a practicing Pagan because he puts up a Christmas tree is silly.

I was playing his game with him Abbey. If he wants to try and put down Pagans and impune their beliefs I will certainly play the same game with him. I'm gonna have him join Bobby soon...

He's a troll and I am not feeding him any more.

[BillyBob]

I was playing his game with him Abbey.

What game is that?



If he wants to try and put down Pagans and impune their beliefs I will certainly play the same game with him.

I put down pagans and their beliefs? I don't recall doing that. Hell, I don't even know what their beliefs are. Oh wait, you're banging a pagan aren't you? Now it's starting to make sense.

I have some Scripture for you:


2 Corinthians 6:14English Standard Version (ESV)

The Temple of the Living God14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?








He's a troll and I am not feeding him any more.

Says the guy who just admitted to playing games. If that's not ironic I don't know what is.

[Voted4Reagan]

What game is that?




I put down pagans and their beliefs? I don't recall doing that. Hell, I don't even know what their beliefs are. Oh wait, you're banging a pagan aren't you? Now it's starting to make sense.

I have some Scripture for you:


2 Corinthians 6:14

English Standard Version (ESV)

The Temple of the Living God

14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?




Says the guy who just admitted to playing games. If that's not ironic I don't know what is.

BillyBobby .... I played YOUR game... I got YOUR thread moved to the cage. I played along with your trolling and Baiting ...

now... I can block you and know one thing... CONHOG was a far more adept troll then you and far more intelligent...

Now toodle off and think about how in just 3 weeks you have become one of the most disruptive people on this board.

With almost 1000 posts in 3 weeks the only thing you are banging is your Keyboard son....

Now squeal like a pig.... off you go to Bobby Land

[Robert A Whit]

My next point was going to be something like:

OK, pine trees are pagan. Were they pagan before pagans or were they just pine trees. Can they ever be just pine trees again or are they destined to be forever pagan just because some ancient pagans once used them?

What I like about your style is that when you get done, it is like a man got out of a tub and left the ring behind.

How can they win?

I was married to a woman that believed that the Xmas tree was pagan. I denied the Xmas tree when I was married to her due to respecting her and her kids views. But our daughter enjoyed the tree a lot once we divorced. To this day she enjoys the tree for what it is. She does not think it is pagan despite her religion trying to force her to think that way. Her husband like me came from a mormon family. My child was taught to not like presents at that time but now she enjoys them a lot.

[BillyBob]

BillyBobby .... I played YOUR game... I got YOUR thread moved to the cage.

I didn't start this thread.






I played along with your trolling and Baiting ...

now... I can block you and know one thing... CONHOG was a far more adept troll then you and far more intelligent...

Now toodle off and think about how in just 3 weeks you have become one of the most disruptive people on this board.

With almost 1000 posts in 3 weeks the only thing you are banging is your Keyboard son....

Now squeal like a pig.... off you go to Bobby Land


I'll take that as a definite win!

[Marcus Aurelius]

the level of BB's stupidity knows no bounds. Just because an atheist claims he celebrates 'Christmas', doesn't mean he really DOES celebrate the holiday of 'Christmas'. It means he celebrates ON Christmas. By definition, you cannot celebrate something you do not believe in.

Dumb ass.

Yes, an atheist can have a tree, lights, decorations, give and receive gifts, party, etc. NONE of that matters, as he is not celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, which is the definition of what the holiday 'Christmas' is.

So, an atheist can celebrate ON Chirstmas, but they are not actually celebrating Christmas itself.

Again, you're a dumb ass.

[tailfins]

I didn't start this thread.








I'll take that as a definite win!


No Voted4ReaganThenObama won. In deference to Jafar00, we should put all anti-Muslim threads in the cage as well. I happen to believe the war against evil is a spiritual war. The occult is for me what Islam is to some here. Besides that, by their fruits you shall know them. One thing worse than a cranky fusspot is a manipulative cranky fusspot. The old men I can give a pass to. If I woke up with every joint in my body aching, I might be cranky too.

[aboutime]

Being in the "occult" seems to be a form of reincarnation.....as in OBAMA, becoming the replacement for the SULFUR MAN Hugo Chavez.
Chavez ignored everyone he didn't listen to, or had them killed if they disagreed with him.

Obama seems to be Hell Bent on following in his Hero's footsteps in destroying this nation, and anyone who doesn't tow his line.

That is 'Occult'. Like a VOODOO Witch Doctor in Haiti....sticking pins in his own head to convince himself he is the Messiah.


Need proof? Today, Obama has given Susan Rice the position as National Security Advisor???

Really. The FIVE TIME LIAR following the Benghazi DENIAL antics?????

[BillyBob]

the level of BB's stupidity knows no bounds. Just because an atheist claims he celebrates 'Christmas', doesn't mean he really DOES celebrate the holiday of 'Christmas'. It means he celebrates ON Christmas. By definition, you cannot celebrate something you do not believe in.

Dumb ass.

Yes, an atheist can have a tree, lights, decorations, give and receive gifts, party, etc. NONE of that matters, as he is not celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, which is the definition of what the holiday 'Christmas' is.

So, an atheist can celebrate ON Chirstmas, but they are not actually celebrating Christmas itself.

Again, you're a dumb ass.

Hey dumbfuck, the guy said in his own words that he celebrates Christmas despite your retarded claims to the contrary. And no amount of whining is ever going to change that. :)

[Marcus Aurelius]

Hey dumbfuck, the guy said in his own words that he celebrates Christmas despite your retarded claims to the contrary. And no amount of whining is ever going to change that. :)

He can call his celebration Christmas all he likes, fuckface. Doesn't mean he is celebrating the birth of Jesus Christs, which is the literal definition of Christmas.

Is your whole genetic line as stupid as you are, or are you adopted?

[aboutime]

Hey dumbfuck, the guy said in his own words that he celebrates Christmas despite your retarded claims to the contrary. And no amount of whining is ever going to change that. :)


We also celebrate BRING YOUR UGLY PET TO SCHOOL DAY, and we can't help it if BB is busy being ugly somewhere else!

[BillyBob]

He can call his celebration Christmas all he likes, fuckface. Doesn't mean he is celebrating the birth of Jesus Christs, which is the literal definition of Christmas.

He never claimed he was celebrating the birth of Jesus, you fucking moron.


Christ·mas

<embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://static.sfdict.com/dictstatic/d/g/speaker.swf" width="17" height="15" id="speaker" align="texttop" quality="high" loop="false" menu="false" salign="t" allowscriptaccess="sameDomain" wmode="transparent" flashvars="soundUrl=http://static.sfdict.com/dictstatic/dictionary/audio/luna/C04/C0454700.mp3"> [kris-muhhttp://static.sfdict.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://static.sfdict.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngs] Show IPA
noun1.the annual festival of the Christian church commemorating the birth of Jesus: celebrated onDecember 25 and now generally observed as a legal holiday and an occasion for exchanging gifts.





Hey dumbfuck, the guy celebrates Christmas. You can whine about it all you like, but he's still gonna celebrate Christmas with or without you.

He gets a Christmas tree.
He decorates it with Christmas decorations.
He goes to Christmas parties.
He sings Christmas Carols.
He exchanges Christmas Gifts on December 25th.
They share a Christmas dinner.

Yep, that sure sounds like Christmas to me.



There's a fun Holiday movie called 'A Christmas Story'. It's about a kid in the 50's who wants a BB gun for Christmas. In that entire movie, I don't recall Jesus' name ever having been brought up. Yet it's still about Christmas. Imagine that, asswipe.



Have you ever gone trick or treating or to a Halloween party? If so, does that mean you are a pagan? Or were you simply celebrating a harmless holiday called 'Halloween' like the rest of us Americans who aren't nearly as fucking retarded as you.





Is your whole genetic line as stupid as you are, or are you adopted?

Hey, it's not my fault you're a fucking mongoloid. :laugh:

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Mongolius Aurelius http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=643928#post643928)

He can call his celebration Christmas all he likes, fuckface. Doesn't mean he is celebrating the birth of Jesus Christs, which is the literal definition of Christmas.


He never claimed he was celebrating the birth of Jesus, you fucking moron.


Christ·mas

<embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://static.sfdict.com/dictstatic/d/g/speaker.swf" id="speaker" quality="high" loop="false" menu="false" salign="t" allowscriptaccess="sameDomain" wmode="transparent" flashvars="soundUrl=http://static.sfdict.com/dictstatic/dictionary/audio/luna/C04/C0454700.mp3" align="texttop" height="15" width="17"> [kris-muhhttp://static.sfdict.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://static.sfdict.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngs] Show IPA
noun1.the annual festival of the Christian church commemorating the birth of Jesus: celebrated onDecember 25 and now generally observed as a legal holiday and an occasion for exchanging gifts.





Hey dumbfuck, the guy celebrates Christmas. You can whine about it all you like, but he's still gonna celebrate Christmas with or without you.

He gets a Christmas tree.
He decorates it with Christmas decorations.
He goes to Christmas parties.
He sings Christmas Carols.
He exchanges Christmas Gifts on December 25th.
They share a Christmas dinner.

Yep, that sure sounds like Christmas to me.



There's a fun Holiday movie called 'A Christmas Story'. It's about a kid in the 50's who wants a BB gun for Christmas. In that entire movie, I don't recall Jesus' name ever having been brought up. Yet it's still about Christmas. Imagine that, asswipe.



Have you ever gone trick or treating or to a Halloween party? If so, does that mean you are a pagan? Or were you simply celebrating a harmless holiday called 'Halloween' like the rest of us Americans who aren't nearly as fucking retarded as you.






Hey, it's not my fault you're a fucking mongoloid. :laugh:

Every time you say it, you sound more inept and unintelligent. He can celebrate on that day anything he likes. But when he himself calls it 'Christmas', it literally means the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. As an atheist, he isn't celebrating Christmas... he is celebrating ON Christmas day. Even a genetically inferior inbred dipshit like you should be able to understand something so basic.

[BillyBob]

Every time you say it, you sound more inept and unintelligent. He can celebrate on that day anything he likes. But when he himself calls it 'Christmas', it literally means the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. As an atheist, he isn't celebrating Christmas... he is celebrating ON Christmas day. Even a genetically inferior inbred dipshit like you should be able to understand something so basic.


Sorry Mongo, he celebrates Christmas.

Now go whine somewhere else. :laugh:

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Mongolus Aurelius http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=644010#post644010)
Every time you say it, you sound more inept and unintelligent. He can celebrate on that day anything he likes. But when he himself calls it 'Christmas', it literally means the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. As an atheist, he isn't celebrating Christmas... he is celebrating ON Christmas day. Even a genetically inferior inbred dipshit like you should be able to understand something so basic.



Sorry Mongo, he celebrates Christmas.

Now go whine somewhere else. :laugh:

editing the name in a quote is editing the quote, which is against the rules. Reported. Again.

[BillyBob]

editing the name in a quote is editing the quote, which is against the rules. Reported. Again.


Not in the Cage it isn't, Mongo.


You sure are a whiney little bitch. :laugh:

[jimnyc]

Not in the Cage it isn't, Mongo.


You sure are a whiney little bitch. :laugh:

Rules still apply in the cage. Quotes can be edited, so long as it's pointed out by the person editing, or it's extremely clear to the reader that what they are reading has been edited. Personally, I think it wiser to just use ones argument within their own post, instead of trying to give off a different appearance. I think it harms the person editing more than anything, most of the time.

[BillyBob]

Rules still apply in the cage. Quotes can be edited, so long as it's pointed out by the person editing, or it's extremely clear to the reader that what they are reading has been edited. Personally, I think it wiser to just use ones argument within their own post, instead of trying to give off a different appearance. I think it harms the person editing more than anything, most of the time.


The only thing I edited was Mongolus' name. And I checked the Cage rules first to make sure I wasn't breaking any rules.

Since we're on this topic, real quick: Sometimes I'll strike out a word or two in someone's post, replace it with a different one and then point it out. I assume that is within the spirit of the board rules, yes?

[jimnyc]

The only thing I edited was Mongolus' name. And I checked the Cage rules first to make sure I wasn't breaking any rules.

Since we're on this topic, real quick: Sometimes I'll strike out a word or two in someone's post, replace it with a different one and then point it out. I assume that is within the spirit of the board rules, yes?

Yes, others do that too. I just want it so that when guests are here reading for the first time, they aren't tricked. It's ok to be funny, but so long as the reader is aware of what is being changed.

[BillyBob]

Yes, others do that too. I just want it so that when guests are here reading for the first time, they aren't tricked. It's ok to be funny, but so long as the reader is aware of what is being changed.


Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.