Whole problem with phone-records-database program, is that *govt* owns the database

[Little-Acorn]

The whole problem with this phone-records-database program, is that government owns the database.

Sure, they promise us they will never access it without a court order.

Just like the IRS promised us they would never discriminate against the sitting party's political opponents, send out our private data to be published, etc.

The Federal government is authorized by the Constitution to fight against the country's enemies. But the 4th amendment places limits on how they do it. And govt possession of such a database makes it all too easy to violate the 4th.

BTW, the warrant for accessing that database? It comes from a secret court.

Sorry, Feds, you've gone too far.

There's nothing wrong with phone companies keeping records of what number made what phone calls to what other number. Phone companies have been doing it ever since there have been phone companies. Look at your landline's long-distance bill. And you can get the same infor about your cell phone, from your cell service provider.

And there's nothing wrong with the gummint examining those records... IF they obey the 4th amendment and get a warrant, from a judge who thinks their search is "reasonable".

That's partly because if they show up on the phone provider's doorstep without a warrant, and demand to see the records or do a search, there's someone who isn't affiliated with government there, who can tell them to go jump in a lake. Namely, the phone service provider (and their lawyers).

But when the government itself owns those records, then that vital buffer is gone. Expecting the government to police itself is, well, unrealistic... to put it mildly. And it's all too easy to just waltz in and start searching... as we have recently seen from the IRS in a (hopefully) unrelated affair.

[Robert A Whit]

The whole problem with this phone-records-database program, is that government owns the database.

Sure, they promise us they will never access it without a court order.

Just like the IRS promised us they would never discriminate against the sitting party's political opponents, send out our private data to be published, etc.

The Federal government is authorized by the Constitution to fight against the country's enemies. But the 4th amendment places limits on how they do it. And govt possession of such a database makes it all too easy to violate the 4th.

BTW, the warrant for accessing that database? It comes from a secret court.

Sorry, Feds, you've gone too far.

There's nothing wrong with phone companies keeping records of what number made what phone calls to what other number. Phone companies have been doing it ever since there have been phone companies. Look at your landline's long-distance bill. And you can get the same infor about your cell phone, from your cell service provider.

And there's nothing wrong with the gummint examining those records... IF they obey the 4th amendment and get a warrant, from a judge who thinks their search is "reasonable".

That's partly because if they show up on the phone provider's doorstep without a warrant, and demand to see the records or do a search, there's someone who isn't affiliated with government there, who can tell them to go jump in a lake. Namely, the phone service provider (and their lawyers).

But when the government itself owns those records, then that vital buffer is gone. Expecting the government to police itself is, well, unrealistic... to put it mildly. And it's all too easy to just waltz in and start searching... as we have recently seen from the IRS in a (hopefully) unrelated affair.

I am not clear on what the Government has. According to the Guardian reports, they have both the phone number of the incoming and outgoing phones.

When i worked at the phone company and saw those type of records, I could not make heads or tails of what the calls were all about. I could see how long they were on the phone so for billing purposes, the phone company had just what they needed to charge a fee per call.

If that is all the Feds have, though I can see it can help if any of those numbers are on a terrorist phone list, other than that I see nothing to hurt you or me.

If somebody can prove they can actually hear the phone calls, other than for terrorists, please explain it to me and prove it by citing correct sources.

Thank you.

[fj1200]

If somebody can prove they can actually hear the phone calls, other than for terrorists, please explain it to me and prove it by citing correct sources.

Again, that's not the point.

[Little-Acorn]

If the Democrats could publish records showing that Mitt Romney called the local head of the Mormon Church, in his church office, 28 times in the three days before the latest Presidential debate... where he had only called the man once a month before then... they would love to spread such info all over the media.

And if that info was right in a govt-owned database, literally right at their fingertips... and we had to rely only on the Democrats' integrity not to go into it without a warrant....

(snicker)

[revelarts]

You exactly right How would the courts know if the executive had snooped on anyone's records when it's on the computers in their house.

If your working at the NSA and you an order from the secretary of state, or the justice dept telling you to pull X# of files on mr Y.. by tomorrow A.m..
But you don't have any court paperwork to authorize it.
Do you
1. break the law and give it to them?
2. Disobey and maybe risk your job? (and peoples lives:rolleyes:)
3. Disobey and tell congress/courts/press thus maybe breaking the law?
4. Quit and move to Madagascar

[Marcus Aurelius]

I am not clear on what the Government has. According to the Guardian reports, they have both the phone number of the incoming and outgoing phones.

When i worked at the phone company and saw those type of records, I could not make heads or tails of what the calls were all about. I could see how long they were on the phone so for billing purposes, the phone company had just what they needed to charge a fee per call.

If that is all the Feds have, though I can see it can help if any of those numbers are on a terrorist phone list, other than that I see nothing to hurt you or me.

If somebody can prove they can actually hear the phone calls, other than for terrorists, please explain it to me and prove it by citing correct sources.

Thank you.
As always, you're being willfully stupid.

The CONTENT of the calls is not the problem here. The federal government does not have the right to know who I call, how often I call, who calls me, how often they call me, how long incoming and outgoing calls are, etc. No right at all. Not without a court order, which would require probable cause.

Why you keep harping on 'content', when NO ONE HERE is whining about content, simply proves you're being willfully stupid. As always.

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=645867#post645867)
If somebody can prove they can actually hear the phone calls, other than for terrorists, please explain it to me and prove it by citing correct sources.


Again, that's not the point.

In his tiny little mind, it is. Therefore, it must be everyones point, since he's the expert.

[Marcus Aurelius]

You exactly right How would the courts know if the executive had snooped on anyone's records when it's on the computers in their house.

If your working at the NSA and you an order from the secretary of state, or the justice dept telling you to pull X# of files on mr Y.. by tomorrow A.m..
But you don't have any court paperwork to authorize it.
Do you
1. break the law and give it to them?
2. Disobey and maybe risk your job? (and peoples lives:rolleyes:)
3. Disobey and tell congress/courts/press thus maybe breaking the law?
4. Quit and move to Madagascar

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/maps/africa/madagascar/map_of_madagascar.jpg

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=645867#post645867)
If somebody can prove they can actually hear the phone calls, other than for terrorists, please explain it to me and prove it by citing correct sources.


Again, that's not the point.

The point?

What point? What is the point?

[Marcus Aurelius]

The point?

What point? What is the point?

Is it anyones business but yours that you frequently call gay sex lines? No. Your business, not the federal governments.

[Robert A Whit]

If the Democrats could publish records showing that Mitt Romney called the local head of the Mormon Church, in his church office, 28 times in the three days before the latest Presidential debate... where he had only called the man once a month before then... they would love to spread such info all over the media.

And if that info was right in a govt-owned database, literally right at their fingertips... and we had to rely only on the Democrats' integrity not to go into it without a warrant....

(snicker)

If this reminds you of the IRS scandal, now a republican is blamed and he admits it, as to the IRS hassling those groups such as the Tea party or patriots.

As to Romney calling the church, remind me why that would be wrong?

[Robert A Whit]

You exactly right How would the courts know if the executive had snooped on anyone's records when it's on the computers in their house.

If your working at the NSA and you an order from the secretary of state, or the justice dept telling you to pull X# of files on mr Y.. by tomorrow A.m..
But you don't have any court paperwork to authorize it.
Do you
1. break the law and give it to them?
2. Disobey and maybe risk your job? (and peoples lives:rolleyes:)
3. Disobey and tell congress/courts/press thus maybe breaking the law?
4. Quit and move to Madagascar

So, do you know what the Guardian and Post raised a fuss about? So far as I can tell by the articles, some NSA computers can tell what use of the internet is all over the world and can also store incoming/outgoing phone numbers in their system.

I don't see what the fuss is about nor if this is true, why Obama would want to prosecute anybody.

I knew this much when Bush was president.

[fj1200]

The point?

What point? What is the point?

:facepalm99: Government access to private data without warrants.

[Marcus Aurelius]

:facepalm99: Government access to private data without warrants.

Whiteless's contention is that the conversations would be data, while the numbers called in or out is not data.

[red states rule]

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/aria_c10994520130612120100.jpg