Outstanding Email Sent To Me.....

[Pale Rider]

Could Not Be Said Better



Written by a housewife from New Jersey and sounds like it! This is one ticked off lady.

"Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001 ?

Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan , across the Potomac from our nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania ? Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was "desecrated" when an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet?...Well, I don't. I don't care at all.

I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in Saudi Arabia .

I'll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed throat.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in Iraq come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.

I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.

I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care.

When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have been humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing incident, rest assured: I don't care.

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank: I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts: I don't care.

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran" and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and - you guessed it - I don't care ! ! ! ! !

If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to all your e-mail friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the people responsible for this ridiculous behavior!

If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete button. Should you choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great country! And may I add:

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem." -- Ronald Reagan

I have another quote that I would like to add AND.......I hope you forward all this.

"If we ever forget that we're One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under." Also by.. Ronald Reagan

One last thought for the day:

In case we find ourselves starting to believe all the anti-American sentiment and negativity, we should remember England 's Prime Minister Tony Blair's words during a recent interview. When asked by one of his Parliament members why he believes so much in America , he said:

"A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in... And how many want out"

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:

1. Jesus Christ

2. The American G. I.

One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

YOU MIGHT WANT TO PASS THIS ON, AS MANY SEEM TO FORGET BOTH OF THEM. AMEN!

(I don't know who wrote this. Snopes it if you want.... "I DON'T CARE." It's GOOD!)

[gabosaurus]

Tell us more about your new girlfriend. :lame2:

[MtnBiker]

Tell us more about your new girlfriend. :lame2:

Not his girlfriend. Lame response.

[chum43]

that email is chock full of chest-pounding-if-we-do-it-it's-ok-but-if-they-do-it-damn-them bullshit.

turn the tables on all of those "i dont care" statements and the author would be wetting themselves they'd be so pissed off, in fact some of them the tables are turned in other statements in the same email, and she applauds one and says I don't care on the other... when are people going to realize the only difference in any war is who's side you are on.

[nevadamedic]

Tell us more about your new girlfriend. :lame2:

:trolls:

[Rahul]

Could Not Be Said Better



Written by a housewife from New Jersey and sounds like it! This is one ticked off lady.

"Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001 ?

Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan , across the Potomac from our nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania ? Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was "desecrated" when an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet?...Well, I don't. I don't care at all.

I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in Saudi Arabia .

I'll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed throat.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in Iraq come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.

I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.

I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care.

When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have been humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing incident, rest assured: I don't care.

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank: I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts: I don't care.

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran" and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and - you guessed it - I don't care ! ! ! ! !

If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to all your e-mail friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the people responsible for this ridiculous behavior!

If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete button. Should you choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great country! And may I add:

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem." -- Ronald Reagan

I have another quote that I would like to add AND.......I hope you forward all this.

"If we ever forget that we're One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under." Also by.. Ronald Reagan

One last thought for the day:

In case we find ourselves starting to believe all the anti-American sentiment and negativity, we should remember England 's Prime Minister Tony Blair's words during a recent interview. When asked by one of his Parliament members why he believes so much in America , he said:

"A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in... And how many want out"

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:

1. Jesus Christ

2. The American G. I.

One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

YOU MIGHT WANT TO PASS THIS ON, AS MANY SEEM TO FORGET BOTH OF THEM. AMEN!

(I don't know who wrote this. Snopes it if you want.... "I DON'T CARE." It's GOOD!)

I wonder how much the woman would care if I replaced the word "Koran" with "Bible", and the word "Iraqis" with "US Marines". ;)

Rahul

[Pale Rider]

I wonder how much the woman would care if I replaced the word "Koran" with "Bible", and the word "Iraqis" with "US Marines". ;)

Rahul

And it is people EXACTLY like you that the article is intended for. You hate God and the Bible every bit as much as you hate America. That is why we don't give a flying fuck about you either. You can kiss our ass.

[chum43]

And it is people EXACTLY like you that the article is intended for. You hate God and the Bible every bit as much as you hate America. That is why we don't give a flying fuck about you either. You can kiss our ass.

look there is a huge difference between Iraq and america, and there is a huge difference between iraqi's and americans, America is the greatest country in the world, but just because someone can see that the only difference between the bible and the koran, and iraqi soldiers and american soldiers, is us and them doesn't make you a god-hating anti-bible american hater... it just makes people like you and this new jersey woman naive to say so.

It's not that I don't agree with a lot of the things she is saying, all is fair in war... but to pretend it isn't a two way street is ludacris... we did bomb baghdad in the 90's, the earth wasn't created on september 11th, it wasn't the start of every event the world has ever known, if people called for a heightened acceptance of the koran in the US she would be outraged even though she calls for the middle east to start caring about the bible, and if you think american geurillas wouldn't be hiding in churches if the US was ever invaded and occupied by an enemy than you are dead wrong, go watch red dawn, it's geurilla warfare, it's how overpowered countries fight wars, it's exactly what we should expect going into Iraq and saying they should come out and fight like men is ridiculous, they would be blown away, we'd do the same thing if we were the lowly dessimated country fighting with geurilla tactics, she calls suicide bombers mindless zealots in search of nirvana but compares american soldiers who die to jesus, as if no american soldier has ever intentionally or otherwise harmed a civilian and no suicide bomber has ever helped their cause without killing civilians. according to her, torturing iraqi's = a-okay, iraqi's torturing americans and she'd surely call for their beheading... and don't get me wrong, I don't complain about torture, if you don't kill them and they are important enough to the cause to end up in international prisoner of war I can't really argue against the use of torture, although I don't really like the idea that much... the point is american g i 's die for our freedom and I thank them for it, but iraqi soldiers die for their cause too... America the country is just plain better than everywhere else, it's the most free and it's the best, but as far as war goes, to think our shit doesn't stink just like everyone else's is assinine and this woman is a moron.

[Rahul]

You hate God and the Bible every bit as much as you hate America.

There isn't any proof of this.



That is why we don't give a flying fuck about you either. You can kiss our ass.

Rude comments are not required.

So, how would you feel if I replaced the words "Koran" with "Bible", and the word "Iraqis" with "US Marines"?

;)

[Pale Rider]

There isn't any proof of this.



Rude comments are not required.

So, how would you feel if I replaced the words "Koran" with "Bible", and the word "Iraqis" with "US Marines"?

;)

There's all the proof I need in what you say.

[Pale Rider]

look there is a huge difference between Iraq and america, and there is a huge difference between iraqi's and americans, America is the greatest country in the world, but just because someone can see that the only difference between the bible and the koran, and iraqi soldiers and american soldiers, is us and them doesn't make you a god-hating anti-bible american hater... it just makes people like you and this new jersey woman naive to say so.

It's not that I don't agree with a lot of the things she is saying, all is fair in war... but to pretend it isn't a two way street is ludacris... we did bomb baghdad in the 90's, the earth wasn't created on september 11th, it wasn't the start of every event the world has ever known, if people called for a heightened acceptance of the koran in the US she would be outraged even though she calls for the middle east to start caring about the bible, and if you think american geurillas wouldn't be hiding in churches if the US was ever invaded and occupied by an enemy than you are dead wrong, go watch red dawn, it's geurilla warfare, it's how overpowered countries fight wars, it's exactly what we should expect going into Iraq and saying they should come out and fight like men is ridiculous, they would be blown away, we'd do the same thing if we were the lowly dessimated country fighting with geurilla tactics, she calls suicide bombers mindless zealots in search of nirvana but compares american soldiers who die to jesus, as if no american soldier has ever intentionally or otherwise harmed a civilian and no suicide bomber has ever helped their cause without killing civilians. according to her, torturing iraqi's = a-okay, iraqi's torturing americans and she'd surely call for their beheading... and don't get me wrong, I don't complain about torture, if you don't kill them and they are important enough to the cause to end up in international prisoner of war I can't really argue against the use of torture, although I don't really like the idea that much... the point is american g i 's die for our freedom and I thank them for it, but iraqi soldiers die for their cause too... America the country is just plain better than everywhere else, it's the most free and it's the best, but as far as war goes, to think our shit doesn't stink just like everyone else's is assinine and this woman is a moron.

You work overtime finding fault with America "FIRST," terrorists "SECOND." Why is that?

[Doniston]

And it is people EXACTLY like you that the article is intended for. You hate God and the Bible every bit as much as you hate America. That is why we don't give a flying fuck about you either. You can kiss our ass.

HA HAHA HEH HEH HEH HO HO HO, I just KNEW you were joined at the hip with someone, With only one ass between you. ROTFLMBO

Remember, YOU said it, I didn't. (quote) "You can kiss our ass."

[Lightning Waltz]

that email is chock full of chest-pounding-if-we-do-it-it's-ok-but-if-they-do-it-damn-them bullshit.

turn the tables on all of those "i dont care" statements and the author would be wetting themselves they'd be so pissed off, in fact some of them the tables are turned in other statements in the same email, and she applauds one and says I don't care on the other... when are people going to realize the only difference in any war is who's side you are on.

Very well said. :thewave:

[gabosaurus]

You can kiss our ass.

I will leave that to your next enabler. :salute:

[darin]

So, how would you feel if I replaced the words "Koran" with "Bible", and the word "Iraqis" with "US Marines"?

;)


Dude - have you SEEN what Muslims do to non-muslims? Sometimes even to OTHER muslims??? Holy HELL man...Seriously - some of them are ANIMALS. :(

[gabosaurus]

Some Christians are animals. Like those who kill in the name of Jesus. Or folks like Fred Phelps.

[darin]

Some Christians are animals. Like those who kill in the name of Jesus. Or folks like Fred Phelps.

Those aren't christians. People stopped 'killing in the name of Jesus' eons ago. Yet Muslims kill in the name of Allah on a daily basis. In 2007.

[Lightning Waltz]

Dude - have you SEEN what Muslims do to non-muslims? Sometimes even to OTHER muslims??? Holy HELL man...Seriously - some of them are ANIMALS. :(

We don't even get to see what they do in CIA "black sites"...

[Lightning Waltz]

Those aren't christians. People stopped 'killing in the name of Jesus' eons ago. Yet Muslims kill in the name of Allah on a daily basis. In 2007.

It's rather convenient of you to claim that self-professed Christians that are a bad example, "aren't Christians".

Do you allow mainstream Muslims to do the same with the extremists who call themselves Muslims?

[darin]

It's rather convenient of you to claim that self-professed Christians that are a bad example, "aren't Christians".

Do you allow mainstream Muslims to do the same with the extremists who call themselves Muslims?

Yup! I perfectly allow for that - The difference is, we see WIDESPREAD condemnation of people who claim christ for their killing ways - yet no such outcry from Muslims over their Jihad.

You're an apologist for terrorists.

[gabosaurus]

Isn't that the same as being an apologist for Christian terrorists?
I don't see much condemnation of abortion clinic killers, or gay bashers, or pedophile Catholic priests. That is what others see as "terrorism."

[Lightning Waltz]

Yup! I perfectly allow for that - The difference is, we see WIDESPREAD condemnation of people who claim christ for their killing ways - yet no such outcry from Muslims over their Jihad.

You're an apologist for terrorists.

No, if I'm anything, I'm an apologist for mainstream muslims.

And I've seen many instances of mainstream muslims condeming people like Bin Laden...

You're just a bigot.

[darin]

Isn't that the same as being an apologist for Christian terrorists?

Where are Christian Terrorists? Wha?


I don't see much condemnation of abortion clinic killers, or gay bashers, or pedophile Catholic priests. That is what others see as "terrorism."

You'd have to be an IDIOT if you REALLY believe that. I'm serious when I say, if you REALLY believe what you just wrote you are the dumbest person I may have met in life. It's SICKENING to think an ADULT who has the ability to pro-create could POSSIBLY think Christian organizations do not Condemn Killers and Child Molesters.

Where is the outcry from GAY communities when Priests molest little boys?

Your ignorance is impenetrable. You WANT lies. You CRAVE evil. You PRAISE falsehoods and slander Reality. May GOD almighty have mercy upon your soul. Seriously.

[darin]

No, if I'm anything, I'm an apologist for mainstream muslims.

And I've seen many instances of mainstream muslims condeming people like Bin Laden...

You're just a bigot.

Show me the public outcry against Islamic terrorists. I'd love to see CAIR producing documents expressly CONDEMNING the acts perpetrated against Humanity, by some, in the name of Allah.

[Lightning Waltz]

Show me the public outcry against Islamic terrorists. I'd love to see CAIR producing documents expressly CONDEMNING the acts perpetrated against Humanity, by some, in the name of Allah.

Try www.google.com

But, here's a couple for you...

http://www.islamfortoday.com/murad04.htm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article424455.ece

[-Cp]

<FONT COLOR=#2D8F26 FACE="Arial"><B>Origins:</B></FONT> &nbsp; Although the article quoted above has come to be attributed to a Pam Foster, it is actually the work of <A HREF="http://www.americandaily.com/author/26" onMouseOver="window.status='Biography of Doug Patton';return true" onMouseOut="window.status='';return true" TARGET=patton>Doug Patton</A>, a freelance columnist and political speechwriter. The <NOBR>e-mail-</NOBR>circulated version leaves off his two opening paragraphs and adds a closing "I don't give a sheet either about those sheet heads!" statement that wasn't in his original, but it is otherwise a faithful copy of his article, which was first <A HREF="http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/dpatton/2005/dp_0606p.shtml" onMouseOver="window.status='Doug Patton article';return true" onMouseOut="window.status='';return true" TARGET=patton>published</A> on the gopusa.com web site on <NOBR>6 June</NOBR> 2005 under the title "Ask Me if I Care About 'Mishandling' of Koran" and which has since been reproduced on a number of other web sites.
<BR><BR>
Pamela Foster said this of how her name came to be associated with Doug Patton's article:

<FONT FACE="Verdana" SIZE=2>
<DIV STYLE="text-align: justify; margin-top: 20px; margin-bottom: 20px; margin-left: 40px; margin-right: 40px">
Hey everyone,<BR>
Just wanted to let those of you that haven't contact me that I forwarded the "I Don't Care" to my nephew serving in Baghdad after someone forwarded it to me. I don't remember who that was, nor did I think much about it until I received long distance phone calls and lots of <NOBR>e-mail.</NOBR> Everyone has been nice except for some whacko who thinks this government planned and executed 9/11. I responded that we would take up a fund for him and we would send him to any country to live that wasn’t here! In any case, someone else let me know last week that a columnist named Doug Patton (google him) wrote the article and I notifed him of the response and what had happened when I forwarded the <NOBR>e-mail.</NOBR> I still don’t know how it got on the "NET", but I am glad. Lots of people have sent me thank yous and some have said they would send to their government representatives and more than one has told me they sent it to the President! WOW! Had no clue what I was getting started. Anyway, God Bless everyone and the USA!
</DIV>
</FONT>

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/foster.asp

[Rahul]

Dude - have you SEEN what Muslims do to non-muslims? Sometimes even to OTHER muslims??? Holy HELL man...Seriously - some of them are ANIMALS. :(

Those are extremist Muslims, not all Muslims - and there are Muslim extremists, Hindu extremists, Christian extremists ...

I think your point is that extremist Muslims do some sickening things - and I agree on that one, but we can't equate ALL Muslims to some extremists.

Also, you bring up a good point re: why the general Muslim population does not condemn the extremists as voceiferouly as might be expected (though some do condemn it, but I think I get your point too). My own take on it is that their governments are too strict on these things and in many cases are run by extremists and so the common man does not want to take the risk of speaking up.

Case in point - Saudi Arabia. It's well known that it's an extremist Muslim nation (perhaps THE most extremist) and that they used to and probably still do sponsor Terrorists. They are extremists - homosexuals can recieve a death penalty, liqor is illegal. YET, if you do a bit of research, you'll see that the average Saudi is quite happy to sneak some liqor into his house, or go across to Bahrain for a few drinks. There are also quite a few "unoffical" gay estabilishments there ... My point is that the government policies do not necessarily reflect what the average Saudi really thinks/feels. Which is probably the case with a lot of Muslim nations.

:beer:

[Rahul]

Oh and by the way, for all those that were kind enough to assign me +ve rep points - Thanks a million! I promise to return the favor once I accumulate enough points!. :)

:beer:

[darin]

but we can't equate ALL Muslims to some extremists.


I've never done that. :) Not all muslims are terrorists, but about all terrorists happen to claim Islam.



Also, you bring up a good point re: why the general Muslim population does not condemn the extremists as vociferously as might be expected (though some do condemn it, but I think I get your point too). My own take on it is that their governments are too strict on these things and in many cases are run by extremists and so the common man does not want to take the risk of speaking up.

That's true, too. Very true. But it's not a 'government problem' - it's a 'governments run by crazy muslims' problem. :)

[Lightning Waltz]

I've never done that. :) Not all muslims are terrorists, but about all terrorists happen to claim Islam.

That's true, too. Very true. But it's not a 'government problem' - it's a 'governments run by crazy muslims' problem. :)

Isn't it you conservative types that like to claim that Affirmative Action is wrong because it's not blacks (or other minorities) that need protection under the law, but poor people? Poor people in general need access to Universities, not rich blacks over poor whites.

Terrorism is a poor-man's game. A desperate tactic. A horrible "last resort".

Is it really the Muslim religion that causes terrorism, or the fact that they are "poorer" (don't have the military resources) that brings so many extremist Muslims to use that tactic?

[nevadamedic]

I wonder how much the woman would care if I replaced the word "Koran" with "Bible", and the word "Iraqis" with "US Marines". ;)

Rahul

:lame2: :fu:

[nevadamedic]

Those aren't christians. People stopped 'killing in the name of Jesus' eons ago. Yet Muslims kill in the name of Allah on a daily basis. In 2007.

As long as there as been any God there has been killing in his\her name.

[Rahul]

I've never done that. :) Not all muslims are terrorists, but about all terrorists happen to claim Islam.

Hey, so long as we agree not all Muslims are terrorists, I'm happy ...

Sure, the terrorists follow Islam but then there have been Christian terrorists also. There have been Hindu terrorists. It's just that the terrorists that attacked the US were Islamic terrorists, so the spotlight's on Islam (unfairly, IMO).



That's true, too. Very true. But it's not a 'government problem' - it's a 'governments run by crazy muslims' problem. :)

Agreed.


:lame2: :fu:

Your post is rude and lacks clarity. Perhaps you could answer the question being asked of you instead of making vulgar gestures.

[Lightning Waltz]

The reply by nevadmedic may be simplistic and may lack clarity for you, however the use of smilies is quite acceptable on this board.

With absolutely no content to the post?

[MtnBiker]

Your post is rude and lacks clarity. Perhaps you could answer the question being asked of you instead of making vulgar gestures.


The reply by nevadmedic may be simplistic and may lack clarity for you, however the use of smilies is quite acceptable on this board.

[Rahul]

The reply by nevadmedic may be simplistic and may lack clarity for you, however the use of smilies is quite acceptable on this board.

I never said the use of smilies wasn't acceptable on the board, did I? ;)

[chum43]

You work overtime finding fault with America "FIRST," terrorists "SECOND." Why is that?

I didn't work overtime, I typed that up by simply reading the email and copying down my thoughts on it... and I would have said the same thing to a muslim jihadist claiming to not care about american soldiers and their tactics because they are evil and just trying to destroy muslims, but I wasn't reading an email about that(and I'm sure there are more of those than these), you give me an article full of faults and I find fault with it first and when I read an article at fault from terrorists, I'll do that first... if you could please stop posting irrelevant bullshit with the purpose of making me look bad just because you disagree that would be great... if you hold the american military on a pedastal and our enemy in the ditch and my argument is that war is war and we're all pretty much equals when it comes to killing enemies then obviously it's going to look like i'm trashing America, but I'm not, I'm simply saying war is by and large a level playing field when it comes to morality... and you'll find if you actually read what I say that I'm not finding fault with AMERICA, I love AMERICA, it's just the reaction some people have to the "totally just" fighting of only the american military that I'm finding fault with.

[MtnBiker]

I never said the use of smilies wasn't acceptable on the board, did I? ;)

Great, now you do not need to report anymore posts because of smilies.

[Kathianne]

Great, now you do not need to report anymore posts because of smilies.

LOL! :lol:

[darin]

Sure, the terrorists follow Islam but then there have been Christian terrorists also.

Look at your words. "There have Been". Not, THERE ARE. Christians, as a group, rejected violence to spread their faith. Seems a LARGE portion of Muslims DAILY RELY on violence.

[Lightning Waltz]

Look at your words. "There have Been". Not, THERE ARE. Christians, as a group, rejected violence to spread their faith. Seems a LARGE portion of Muslims DAILY RELY on violence.

Are you arguing against violence, or the method in which the violence is delivered?

As I said above, the difference between soldier and terrorist is mostly semantics and military resources.

I'm willing to bet that you cheered on the wolverines in the movie Red Dawn...

[chum43]

Look at your words. "There have Been". Not, THERE ARE. Christians, as a group, rejected violence to spread their faith. Seems a LARGE portion of Muslims DAILY RELY on violence.

disclaimer: NOT IN SUPPORT OF TERRORISTS, I REPEAT NOT IN SUPPORT OF TERRORISTS

ok now that all you idiots loving to pin things on anyone with a thought that isn't "down with terrorists" have that disclaimer...

I think you all have it backwards on the faith thing... I think Islamic terrorists use their faith while conducting terrorism, not conduct terrorism because of their faith... much in the same way christian terrorists would do things in the name of god or christ IF they were terrorists to begin with, which they aren't, but my point is the terrorist uses the faith, not the faith causes the terrorism, thats true and very simple... faith is also a good way to dismiss any fault of your own when dealing with an enemy, pin it all on their faith and there is no argument that maybe it's retaliation.

[Lightning Waltz]

disclaimer: NOT IN SUPPORT OF TERRORISTS, I REPEAT NOT IN SUPPORT OF TERRORISTS

It doesn't matter. They are still going to accuse you and I of being in support of them...;)

But, I will say that I completely agree...

[chum43]

Are you arguing against violence, or the method in which the violence is delivered?

As I said above, the difference between soldier and terrorist is mostly semantics and military resources.

I'm willing to bet that you cheered on the wolverines in the movie Red Dawn...

:clap:

that's the brilliance of the movie... go watch red dawn and go read geurilla by charles thayer and you'll realize that terrorism is simply geurilla tactics by nations without the means to fight a conventional war, it's completely legitimate and as far as I'm concerned just as legit as tanks running over houses, the only real issue of difference here is civilian deaths and innocent people, which I'll point out has problems on both sides, I'll remind you the US did bomb hiroshima so don't say the US never kills civilians, we do, it is mostly semantics... but terrorism has more instances of killing innocents, but on a much smaller scale, the problem is people don't see this as a military action on the same level as a hiroshima because it's the enemy, its what side you are on... not what is being done... war is a bad but necessary thing, and whichever side you are on if you can't see that both sides are fairly equal when it comes to morality than you are naive.

[Pale Rider]

HA HAHA HEH HEH HEH HO HO HO, I just KNEW you were joined at the hip with someone, With only one ass between you. ROTFLMBO

Remember, YOU said it, I didn't. (quote) "You can kiss our ass."

"OUR", being "COLLECTIVELY," America. Of course you couldn't have figured that out. You're too damn thick in the skull. You have the comprehension of a five year old, and you spell like one too.

[Pale Rider]

I will leave that to your next enabler. :salute:

Just get that scabby thing around mouth looked at... :fu:

[Kathianne]

Just get that scabby thing around mouth looked at... :fu:

I keep trying to rep you, won't let me. ;)

[Pale Rider]

Those are extremist Muslims, not all Muslims - and there are Muslim extremists, Hindu extremists, Christian extremists ...

I think your point is that extremist Muslims do some sickening things - and I agree on that one, but we can't equate ALL Muslims to some extremists.

Also, you bring up a good point re: why the general Muslim population does not condemn the extremists as voceiferouly as might be expected (though some do condemn it, but I think I get your point too). My own take on it is that their governments are too strict on these things and in many cases are run by extremists and so the common man does not want to take the risk of speaking up.

Case in point - Saudi Arabia. It's well known that it's an extremist Muslim nation (perhaps THE most extremist) and that they used to and probably still do sponsor Terrorists. They are extremists - homosexuals can recieve a death penalty, liqor is illegal. YET, if you do a bit of research, you'll see that the average Saudi is quite happy to sneak some liqor into his house, or go across to Bahrain for a few drinks. There are also quite a few "unoffical" gay estabilishments there ... My point is that the government policies do not necessarily reflect what the average Saudi really thinks/feels. Which is probably the case with a lot of Muslim nations.

:beer:

Then why is it that 25% of muslims here in America between the age of 17 and 25 think it is perfectly fine to strap a bomb to their body and go blow up a crowd of innocent, men, women and children?

[darin]

Are you arguing against violence, or the method in which the violence is delivered?

As I said above, the difference between soldier and terrorist is mostly semantics and military resources.

I'm willing to bet that you cheered on the wolverines in the movie Red Dawn...

I'm arguing the cause. The Wolverines had a 'just' cause. Islamic Terrorists have an 'evil' cause. The wolverines were not terrorists - they did not target innocents as a means to an end. They were guerrillas.

You betray your hatred of 'good' and 'society' by your definitions of 'terrorist'. A terrorist is NOT defined by his/her uniform or government - but the target of their force.

[chum43]

Then why is it that 25% of muslims here in America between the age of 17 and 25 think it is perfectly fine to strap a bomb to their body and go blow up a crowd of innocent, men, women and children?

go ask other groups aged 17 to 25, i'm sure you'll get at least 1 in 5... I don't know if you've ever noticed but a small chunk of that age group not holding life too highly isn't a surprise... I'd also love to see that poll, where did it come from?

[darin]

:clap:

that's the brilliance of the movie... go watch red dawn and go read geurilla by charles thayer and you'll realize that terrorism is simply geurilla tactics by nations without the means to fight a conventional war, it's completely legitimate and as far as I'm concerned just as legit as tanks running over houses, the only real issue of difference here is civilian deaths and innocent people, which I'll point out has problems on both sides, I'll remind you the US did bomb hiroshima so don't say the US never kills civilians, we do, it is mostly semantics... but terrorism has more instances of killing innocents, but on a much smaller scale, the problem is people don't see this as a military action on the same level as a hiroshima because it's the enemy, its what side you are on... not what is being done... war is a bad but necessary thing, and whichever side you are on if you can't see that both sides are fairly equal when it comes to morality than you are naive.

The USA goes to lengths perhaps greater than EVERY OTHER NATION to prevent killing innocents.


Re: WW2 - Educate yourself


Comparing the anniversary of Hiroshima with terrorism that targets innocent nations with acts of murder during peacetime is an inexcusable attack on those who defended our nation and brought peace to the world. Unlike Sept. 11, 2001, and other terrorist attacks in England, Spain and elsewhere, which were unprovoked attacks during times of world peace, the events leading up to the end of World War II unfolded during a state of declared war. World freedom from tyranny, oppression and evil leaders was the guiding force in attacking the enemy with atomic weapons. Today, however, terrorists have no such honorable mission. They simply seek to bring death to those who promote freedom.

:salute: (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05235/558146.stm)

[chum43]

I'm arguing the cause. The Wolverines had a 'just' cause. Islamic Terrorists have an 'evil' cause. The wolverines were not terrorists - they did not target innocents as a means to an end. They were guerrillas.

You betray your hatred of 'good' and 'society' by your definitions of 'terrorist'. A terrorist is NOT defined by his/her uniform or government - but the target of their force.

we all justify our own causes... maybe terrorists are a little more evil for targeting innocents, but we're still talking about killing humans for a cause, whatever that may be.

[Lightning Waltz]

I'm arguing the cause. The Wolverines had a 'just' cause. Islamic Terrorists have an 'evil' cause. The wolverines were not terrorists - they did not target innocents as a means to an end. They were guerrillas.

You betray your hatred of 'good' and 'society' by your definitions of 'terrorist'. A terrorist is NOT defined by his/her uniform or government - but the target of their force.

And the "justice" of that "cause" is determined by...you, right?

I agree that targeting "civilians" is never just. But, I have to ask, are the ones that are planting road-side bombs and killing so many of our soldiers, "terrorists"? Clearly, they are targeting soldiers, right?

[chum43]

so the justification for killing innocents is a widely accepted cause? that's it? I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do, I'm simply saying morally, it's not that much different then a terrorist attack... they say it's simply an attack on freedom and yet we have attacked them without ever declaring war, again, not saying it was the wrong thing to do just pointing out that these terrorist attacks aren't just random killing of innocent people, they have causes and purposes and I'm all for not letting them get away with it, but lets not pretend we are all high and mighty in our war and everyone else is just evil when they conduct military tactics that are less than conventional...

that being said i agree we are at the forefront of nations that conduct war with regard for innocent civilians, but that doesn't mean we aren't a part of the killing of HUMAN BEINGS simply because they are our enemy and they are trying to kill us, so we kill them, so they kill us, it's a vicious cycle that we are apart of and it does not make us moral kings that we don't kill civilians as often as others do... it's war, necessary, but still not holy on our side and evil on others.

[Pale Rider]

I didn't work overtime, I typed that up by simply reading the email and copying down my thoughts on it... and I would have said the same thing to a muslim jihadist claiming to not care about american soldiers and their tactics because they are evil and just trying to destroy muslims, but I wasn't reading an email about that(and I'm sure there are more of those than these), you give me an article full of faults and I find fault with it first and when I read an article at fault from terrorists, I'll do that first... if you could please stop posting irrelevant bullshit with the purpose of making me look bad just because you disagree that would be great... if you hold the american military on a pedastal and our enemy in the ditch and my argument is that war is war and we're all pretty much equals when it comes to killing enemies then obviously it's going to look like i'm trashing America, but I'm not, I'm simply saying war is by and large a level playing field when it comes to morality... and you'll find if you actually read what I say that I'm not finding fault with AMERICA, I love AMERICA, it's just the reaction some people have to the "totally just" fighting of only the american military that I'm finding fault with.

Two things, first off, islamist jihadists/radical islam DOESN'T care about America. They have pledged to see us all DEAD! Didn't you know that? Now you do. Second, this war is by FAR "a level playing field." Our military plays by the rules of war, wears a uniform, and patrols out in the open. The jihadist terrorists on the other hand sneak around like the coward dogs they are. They hide bombs under their sheets and blow up innocent people. They hide bombs in cars and blow up innocent people. They embrace death. We embrace life. So for you to simply post a reply full of fault with America BEFORE making any sort of a statement condemning the terrorists, you see where one may get the idea you find fault with America first? That's what it looks like.

Yes I do hold "my" military on a pedestal. As a service connected disabled veteran myself, I'm fully aware by experience what kind of fine, honorable, courageous people are in the military. They've earned my respect. Radical islamists haven't earned SHIT from me, other than maybe a BULLET.

[Pale Rider]

Isn't it you conservative types that like to claim that Affirmative Action is wrong because it's not blacks (or other minorities) that need protection under the law, but poor people? Poor people in general need access to Universities, not rich blacks over poor whites.

No. AA is wrong because it's discriminatory by race, period.

[chum43]

Two things, first off, islamist jihadists/radical islam DOESN'T care about America. They have pledged to see us all DEAD! Didn't you know that? Now you do. Second, this war is by FAR "a level playing field." Our military plays by the rules of war, wears a uniform, and patrols out in the open. The jihadist terrorists on the other hand sneak around like the coward dogs they are. They hide bombs under their sheets and blow up innocent people. They hide bombs in cars and blow up innocent people. They embrace death. We embrace life. So for you to simply post a reply full of fault with America BEFORE making any sort of a statement condemning the terrorists, you see where one may get the idea you find fault with America first? That's what it looks like.

Yes I do hold "my" military on a pedestal. As a service connected disabled veteran myself, I'm fully aware by experience what kind of fine, honorable, courageous people are in the military. They've earned my respect. Radical islamists haven't earned SHIT from me, other than maybe a BULLET.

if you had any knowledge of geurilla warfare you'd realize that any nation being attacked by a much larger conventional enemy would resort to such things as their only means to survive as an opponent, it's how wars are fought, I'm not saying it makes them righteous in doing so, I'm just saying it's the expected result, it's the reality of the matter, the US army in the same situation would be using the same tactics(minus killing civilians so willy nilly), they aren't cowardly dogs, they are outmanned and outarmed, thats how an outmanned outarmed opponent fights in a war... and for the record, we have pledged to see them all dead too, so what is your point, mine is we're fighting a war, not having a picnic where we step on the toes of big bad bullies and tell them to quit, no war is completely noble by way of the nature of war, it's killing

I'm not anti-war, there are too many people out there who want to fight, you have to fight back, but I just wish people were smart enough to realize that no side in a war is completely moral and right, it's a war, you kill, we kill, we want a desired outcome, they want a desired outcome, they have their causes and we have ours, I hope ours comes out on top, but I'm not going to sit here and say no matter what we do to win we're better and more morally sound than an opponent simply because they are our opponents, and that "I don't care" what WE do, it's warranted, and "i don't care" what THEY do, it's not warranted... It's ridiculous, and that is what I did, I contested the only people saying such things on this board, the person who wrote that email and all that agree with it... when the islamics come on the board and say they are righteous and we are evil I will contest them with the same force, it's just not happening.

you are trying to take my "we're not so high and mighty when we fight wars" as "terrorists are the ones that are right and just"... it's simply not what i'm saying.

[Pale Rider]

go ask other groups aged 17 to 25, i'm sure you'll get at least 1 in 5...
I don't believe that in the slightest. It is only the muslims that believe if they die for allah, that they'll bed down with 72 virgins or some shit like that. No other religon makes that absurd of a claim. But what do you expect from a religon cooked up by some sharlaton fake?


I don't know if you've ever noticed but a small chunk of that age group not holding life too highly isn't a surprise... I'd also love to see that poll, where did it come from?
That still doesn't mean they want to strap a bomb to their gut and go blow a whole crowd of innocent people. Case in point, when was the last time you heard of an American, Christian youth doing this? Answer.... "never."

The poll was cited by O'Reilly on Fox news. I'm sure you could find it in the archives. I don't have time to look now. But more than just me have heard it. There may even have been a thread started about it here.

[Pale Rider]

so the justification for killing innocents is a widely accepted cause? that's it? I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do, I'm simply saying morally, it's not that much different then a terrorist attack... they say it's simply an attack on freedom and yet we have attacked them without ever declaring war, again, not saying it was the wrong thing to do just pointing out that these terrorist attacks aren't just random killing of innocent people,


Then what was 9/11?

[chum43]

I don't believe that in the slightest. It is only the muslims that believe if they die for allah, that they'll bed down with 72 virgins or some shit like that. No other religon makes that absurd of a claim. But what do you expect from a religon cooked up by some sharlaton fake?


That still doesn't mean they want to strap a bomb to their gut and go blow a whole crowd of innocent people. Case in point, when was the last time you heard of an American, Christian youth doing this? Answer.... "never."

The poll was cited by O'Reilly on Fox news. I'm sure you could find it in the archives. I don't have time to look now. But more than just me have heard it. There may even have been a thread started about it here.

first off the email itself likened people who die for America with jesus christ, it's not exactly the same, but it's in the same ballpark, luckily we just don't believe in suicide, I guess it's more than luck, but you see my point, it's a very small one, I'm not likening christians with people who believe this suicide virgins thing, I'm just saying it's not that far out... and non-muslims would simply have to change the wording, they wouldn't strap a bomb to themselves and blow up innocent women and children, they'd go in and blow em away with a shotgun and go out in a gunfight with police, I'd still say not far from 10 to 20% in that age group would say it's completely fine to kill innocent civilians in some manner or function... if it were for their god and it was killing people they want to deem evil or different from them.

and I wasn't denying the existence of the poll, I just wanted to know where to find it... and thanks, I'll take a look for it.

[chum43]

Then what was 9/11?

by all expert accounts... blowback

how direct that is can be up for debate, but let's not sit here and pretend our quarel with the middle east started on 9/11, it didn't... they didn't pick new york out on a map by spinning the globe, or because we are a free country or because we aren't muslims, we have been involved in the middle east for decades... thats like saying our invasion of baghdad was random and we just decided to do it because we hate muslims... it's just not true, this whole thing started before 9/11(NOT SAYING 9/11 WAS AN OKAY THING TO DO!!!!).

[Pale Rider]

if you had any knowledge of geurilla warfare you'd realize that any nation being attacked by a much larger conventional enemy would resort to such things as their only means to survive as an opponent, it's how wars are fought, I'm not saying it makes them righteous in doing so, I'm just saying it's the expected result, it's the reality of the matter, the US army in the same situation would be using the same tactics(minus killing civilians so willy nilly), they aren't cowardly dogs, they are outmanned and outarmed, thats how an outmanned outarmed opponent fights in a war... and for the record, we have pledged to see them all dead too, so what is your point, mine is we're fighting a war, not having a picnic where we step on the toes of big bad bullies and tell them to quit, no war is completely noble by way of the nature of war, it's killing
"If I had any knowledge"..... so you feel I'm putting words in your mouth, and now it's your turn to take a little cheap shot at me and cast doubt on my intelligence. Whatever man.

Terrorists aren't an army. Terrorists aren't soilders. Terrorists are coward dogs that indiscriminately KILL in the name of their RELIGON. Their only goal is DEATH. If you continue to compare this to America and it's military, and what our goal is, which is to STOP them from ever attacking us again, then you have a serious problem with comprehending what this whole fight is about.


I'm not anti-war, there are too many people out there who want to fight, you have to fight back, but I just wish people were smart enough to realize that no side in a war is completely moral and right, it's a war, you kill, we kill, we want a desired outcome, they want a desired outcome, they have their causes and we have ours, I hope ours comes out on top, but I'm not going to sit here and say no matter what we do to win we're better and more morally sound than an opponent simply because they are our opponents, and that "I don't care" what WE do, it's warranted, and "i don't care" what THEY do, it's not warranted... It's ridiculous, and that is what I did, I contested the only people saying such things on this board, the person who wrote that email and all that agree with it... when the islamics come on the board and say they are righteous and we are evil I will contest them with the same force, it's just not happening.

you are trying to take my "we're not so high and mighty when we fight wars" as "terrorists are the ones that are right and just"... it's simply not what i'm saying.
The main reason I posted the article, no matter who wrote it, is because it's the way I feel myself, to a Tee.

[theHawk]

Terrorism is a poor-man's game. A desperate tactic. A horrible "last resort".

Is it really the Muslim religion that causes terrorism, or the fact that they are "poorer" (don't have the military resources) that brings so many extremist Muslims to use that tactic?

Most of the 9/11 terrorists were very wealthy. And of course Osama himself came from a billionaire family. There are plenty of poor Christians(Africa, Europe) and "other" religous types (China, SE Asia) and they are not turning to terrorism. The main difference is the religious ideology, most religions condemn the barbaric acts of terrorism, while the Koran promotes it.

[darin]

But, I have to ask, are the ones that are planting road-side bombs and killing so many of our soldiers, "terrorists"? Clearly, they are targeting soldiers, right?

They are the same assholes targeting Markets. And Job Fairs. And Schools. Yup. They are terrorists.

[Pale Rider]

first off the email itself likened people who die for America with jesus christ, it's not exactly the same, but it's in the same ballpark, luckily we just don't believe in suicide, I guess it's more than luck, but you see my point, it's a very small one, I'm not likening christians with people who believe this suicide virgins thing, I'm just saying it's not that far out... and non-muslims would simply have to change the wording, they wouldn't strap a bomb to themselves and blow up innocent women and children, they'd go in and blow em away with a shotgun and go out in a gunfight with police, I'd still say not far from 10 to 20% in that age group would say it's completely fine to kill innocent civilians in some manner or function... if it were for their god and it was killing people they want to deem evil or different from them.

and I wasn't denying the existence of the poll, I just wanted to know where to find it... and thanks, I'll take a look for it.

No... the comparison just isn't working. You won't find Christians saying that doing anything of the sort would be acceptable. However, you DO find muslims that say it is. Point there being, islam is a violent and bloody religon that encourages the killing of non-muslims.

[Pale Rider]

by all expert accounts... blowback

how direct that is can be up for debate, but let's not sit here and pretend our quarel with the middle east started on 9/11, it didn't... they didn't pick new york out on a map by spinning the globe, or because we are a free country or because we aren't muslims, we have been involved in the middle east for decades... thats like saying our invasion of baghdad was random and we just decided to do it because we hate muslims... it's just not true, this whole thing started before 9/11(NOT SAYING 9/11 WAS AN OKAY THING TO DO!!!!).

That is so wrong on every level. You've held up a semblence of an arguement up until now, but you've lost it.

"BLOWBACK?" Are you insane? We were attacked because we ARE FREE. We were attacked because we're CHRISTIANS. We we're attacked because radical islam refers to America as "the great satan." We we're attacked because the koran TELLS the terrorists TO KILL US. We are infidels!

[Lightning Waltz]

They are the same assholes targeting Markets. And Job Fairs. And Schools. Yup. They are terrorists.

You mean you know that they are all the same? How do you know this? I thought there were different factions and different forces there.

Let's just suppose that there is a group there that only targets soldiers, are they terrorists?

[chum43]

"If I had any knowledge"..... so you feel I'm putting words in your mouth, and now it's your turn to take a little cheap shot at me and cast doubt on my intelligence. Whatever man.

Terrorists aren't an army. Terrorists aren't soilders. Terrorists are coward dogs that indiscriminately KILL in the name of their RELIGON. Their only goal is DEATH. If you continue to compare this to America and it's military, and what our goal is, which is to STOP them from ever attacking us again, then you have a serious problem with comprehending what this whole fight is about.


The main reason I posted the article, no matter who wrote it, is because it's the way I feel myself, to a Tee.

ok well, it wasn't a cheap shot, and I didn't say you had no knowledge, I simply pointed out the fact that I don't think you know very much about geurilla warfare and what it entails, and you can condemn terrorists all you want because of the killing of innocent people, but their tactics aren't new and their tactics aren't that of coward dogs, it is the tactics of an unconventional military force fighting a convential oponent much larger then themselves and much more heavily armed... thats what guerilla forces are, thats what they do, it's the way wars have been fought by poorer countries ever since the rich ones got all the modern machinery and firepower, it's exactly what the US army expected going in decades ago, or at least should have, i don't know... it's exactly what they are talking about when they talk of not understanding the "irrationality of middle eastern politics", they all fight guerilla wars, and a conventional army has a near impossible task to try and defeat guerilla forces when they are relentless in their cause because they never quit and they can't be stopped as long as there are a few of them still around, the only way to stop a guerilla force is to not fight them and hope you got off their bad side and try to stop them from attacking you at home, which is not what we are doing... to them part of what they are doing is trying to make sure we never attack them again... sticking our noses into the middle east where it shouldn't be is the worst thing we have ever done(I'm talking about isreal, not making sure sadam is out of power and countries don't have nukes), it's started this whole thing and guerillas don't get stopped easily, and continueing to fight a conventional war(no matter how just) is not the way to stop them. saying their only goal is death is just one I don't agree with, death is a means not an end, they have their causes and as much as anyone doesn't agree with them we shouldn't continue to fight a war we can't win against an enemy we can't define because they are guerillas willing to die for their cause.

[Lightning Waltz]

Most of the 9/11 terrorists were very wealthy. And of course Osama himself came from a billionaire family. There are plenty of poor Christians(Africa, Europe) and "other" religous types (China, SE Asia) and they are not turning to terrorism. The main difference is the religious ideology, most religions condemn the barbaric acts of terrorism, while the Koran promotes it.

Osama has been cut off from his "billionaire" family for a long time. As for the rest, I would need to see evidence of your claim that they were wealthy. I have to say, when they video-tape themselves, they certainly don't LOOK wealthy...

But, in any event, how does their wealth match up to the military of the US?

[chum43]

That is so wrong on every level. You've held up a semblence of an arguement up until now, but you've lost it.

"BLOWBACK?" Are you insane? We were attacked because we ARE FREE. We were attacked because we're CHRISTIANS. We we're attacked because radical islam refers to America as "the great satan." We we're attacked because the koran TELLS the terrorists TO KILL US. We are infidels!

the irony of this statement is that we do the same demonization to people who attack us...

we've supported isreal(who use terrorism and killings of innocents) for decades against muslims... they say death to america, and we say they attack cause we are free and christian and "the great satan" and infidels because the koran tells them to kill us

they attack us using terrorism and killings of innocents, we invade and occupy a country because of it and say they evil satanic men who have some satanic document called koran that says kill christians(i'd love to see that passage) and they think we attack them because they are muslim and make their own rules and do their own thing(which isnt true, as most of the shit on both sides)

point is, we have good reasons to attack them, and surely they have reasons better than we are free and evil, thats just bullshit, thats the same as saying we attack them because we are free and evil... it's just propaganda.

[chum43]

That is so wrong on every level. You've held up a semblence of an arguement up until now, but you've lost it.

"BLOWBACK?" Are you insane? We were attacked because we ARE FREE. We were attacked because we're CHRISTIANS. We we're attacked because radical islam refers to America as "the great satan." We we're attacked because the koran TELLS the terrorists TO KILL US. We are infidels!

did we or did we not aid isreal in the killing of muslims prior to 9/11?

radical christianity refers to muslims as evil terrorists who hate freedom and christians and kills because the koran says so... does this sound rational to you?

it's all meaningless us vs them propaganda, truth is it's just a war, a war with a guerilla enemy willing to kill innocent people.

[Kathianne]

did we or did we not aid isreal in the killing of muslims prior to 9/11?

Israel sucks, at least on this site, move along now. You've been vindicated, both right and left agree with you.

[Pale Rider]

ok well, it wasn't a cheap shot, and I didn't say you had no knowledge, I simply pointed out the fact that I don't think you know very much about geurilla warfare and what it entails, and you can condemn terrorists all you want because of the killing of innocent people, but their tactics aren't new and their tactics aren't that of coward dogs, it is the tactics of an unconventional military force fighting a convential oponent much larger then themselves and much more heavily armed... thats what guerilla forces are, thats what they do, it's the way wars have been fought by poorer countries ever since the rich ones got all the modern machinery and firepower, it's exactly what the US army expected going in decades ago, or at least should have, i don't know... it's exactly what they are talking about when they talk of not understanding the "irrationality of middle eastern politics", they all fight guerilla wars, and a conventional army has a near impossible task to try and defeat guerilla forces when they are relentless in their cause because they never quit and they can't be stopped as long as there are a few of them still around, the only way to stop a guerilla force is to not fight them and hope you got off their bad side and try to stop them from attacking you at home, which is not what we are doing... to them part of what they are doing is trying to make sure we never attack them again... sticking our noses into the middle east where it shouldn't be is the worst thing we have ever done(I'm talking about isreal, not making sure sadam is out of power and countries don't have nukes), it's started this whole thing and guerillas don't get stopped easily, and continueing to fight a conventional war(no matter how just) is not the way to stop them. saying their only goal is death is just one I don't agree with, death is a means not an end, they have their causes and as much as anyone doesn't agree with them we shouldn't continue to fight a war we can't win against an enemy we can't define because they are guerillas willing to die for their cause.

Yes... chum... terrorists are COWARDS, pure and simple.

I don't quite know where you're warped sense of this war came from. Possibly john murtha, or rosie o'donel, but it's wrong. I can see clearly now that you think all the attacks on America, including 9/11, were all our own fault. We ask for it. The terrorists in your mind are just innocent little guys just wanting us to leave them alone, and if we did, they'd NEVER attack us again. They'd thank us for leaving, and the world would be perfect.

You're living in a world of lies and delusion if you believe that garbage chum.

And I know plenty about guerilla warfare. I don't need anyone to lecture me on it. I was in the military and have combat experience. How about you? Experience, or book learning?

[chum43]

Yes... chum... terrorists are COWARDS, pure and simple.

I don't quite know where you're warped sense of this war came from. Possibly john murtha, or rosie o'donel, but it's wrong. I can see clearly now that you think all the attacks on America, including 9/11, were all our own fault. We ask for it. The terrorists in your mind are just innocent little guys just wanting us to leave them alone, and if we did, they'd NEVER attack us again. They'd thank us for leaving, and the world would be perfect.

You're living in a world of lies and delusion if you believe that garbage chum.

And I know plenty about guerilla warfare. I don't need anyone to lecture me on it. I was in the military and have combat experience. How about you? Experience, or book learning?

book learning...

and I don't believe all that garbage because I never said all that garbage, we didn't ask for it, they wouldn't thank us for leaving, and everything would be ok... I told you I'm not an anti-war moron, I'm simply open minded enough to realize that terrorist attacks by muslim countries are a residual of war not a random act against freedom, they are still the enemy, i'm not saying I condone what they do or think it's our fault, i'm just saying it wasn't random or religious in reason, those are excuses for mistakes made in foreign policy, mistakes that cause hostility, that happened to lead to terrorist activity against innocent americans, did we ask for it? no, did we deserve it? no, but we did aid in the attacking of an enemy that happens to condone killing innocent people with terrorist acts, so to say it's just a mandate of their religion and no matter what we do we can't stop it unless we kill them all is absurd.

[chum43]

Israel sucks, at least on this site, move along now. You've been vindicated, both right and left agree with you.


then why can't it be believed that 9/11 may have been a retaliatory unconventional military action? no matter how despicable it was, why then must it be believed that it was a freedom hating random act of evil violence?

[darin]

did we or did we not aid isreal in the killing of muslims prior to 9/11?


Israel only kills muslims who attack them first. That's how it works. See also: the Crusades.

[Kathianne]

then why can't it be believed that 9/11 may have been a retaliatory unconventional military action? no matter how despicable it was, why then must it be believed that it was a freedom hating random act of evil violence?

Ok, consider that Israel somehow managed to get all those Saudis and Egyptians on planes, to hit the towers. That the Israelis has packed with explosives. That they had convinced GW, working in concert with Mosad, to act like he was clueless, but come out later as strong. Now what?

[Pale Rider]

book learning...

and I don't believe all that garbage because I never said all that garbage, we didn't ask for it, they wouldn't thank us for leaving, and everything would be ok... I told you I'm not an anti-war moron, I'm simply open minded enough to realize that terrorist attacks by muslim countries are a residual of war not a random act against freedom, they are still the enemy, i'm not saying I condone what they do or think it's our fault, i'm just saying it wasn't random or religious in reason, those are excuses for mistakes made in foreign policy, mistakes that cause hostility, that happened to lead to terrorist activity against innocent americans, did we ask for it? no, did we deserve it? no, but we did aid in the attacking of an enemy that happens to condone killing innocent people with terrorist acts, so to say it's just a mandate of their religion and no matter what we do we can't stop it unless we kill them all is absurd.

Here's the bottom line chum, it IS a religous war to the terrorists. That's why they call it "jihad." And whether you think it's absurd or not, killing them all probably is the best solution, because that is EXACTLY what they want to do to us, and they won't stop until they do.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
ji·had /dʒɪˈhɑd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ji-hahd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a holy war undertaken as a sacred duty by Muslims.
2. any vigorous, emotional crusade for an idea or principle.

Also, jehad.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1865–70; < Ar jihād struggle, strife]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source

ji·had also je·had (jĭ-häd') Pronunciation Key
n.
Islam An individual's striving for spiritual self-perfection.
Islam A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.
A crusade or struggle: "The war against smoking is turning into a jihad against people who smoke" (Fortune).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jihad

[chum43]

Here's the bottom line chum, it IS a religous war to the terrorists. That's why they call it "jihad." And whether you think it's absurd or not, killing them all probably is the best solution, because that is EXACTLY what they want to do to us, and they won't stop until they do.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
ji·had /dʒɪˈhɑd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ji-hahd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a holy war undertaken as a sacred duty by Muslims.
2. any vigorous, emotional crusade for an idea or principle.

Also, jehad.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1865–70; < Ar jihād struggle, strife]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source

ji·had also je·had (jĭ-häd') Pronunciation Key
n.
Islam An individual's striving for spiritual self-perfection.
Islam A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.
A crusade or struggle: "The war against smoking is turning into a jihad against people who smoke" (Fortune).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jihad

under the second definition it could be said that we are on a jihad...

and i didn't say isreal and GW had any hand in 9/11 I simply pointed out that we had attacked muslims before 9/11, so saying it could be blowback is not insane... period, if you deny that you have your ears and eyes closed, it's impossible not to consider it.

and I never denied that terrorists didn't bring religion into it, they have, and so did the author of that original email, my point is that isn't the reason it was all started, religion hardly ever is... I hate to bring this up again but even hitler didn't go on a crusade to kill the jews, thats just the slogan he was running under, religion is a useful tactic but it's never the sole purpose... not in modern warfare anyway.

[Doniston]

Israel only kills muslims who attack them first. That's how it works. See also: the Crusades. Simply BS they started in 1947/8 Once more you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

[Kathianne]

under the second definition it could be said that we are on a jihad...

and i didn't say isreal and GW had any hand in 9/11 I simply pointed out that we had attacked muslims before 9/11, so saying it could be blowback is not insane... period, if you deny that you have your ears and eyes closed, it's impossible not to consider it.

and I never denied that terrorists didn't bring religion into it, they have, and so did the author of that original email, my point is that isn't the reason it was all started, religion hardly ever is... I hate to bring this up again but even hitler didn't go on a crusade to kill the jews, thats just the slogan he was running under, religion is a useful tactic but it's never the sole purpose... not in modern warfare anyway.

Well you didn't 'say' it, but you are implying that it's all GW's fault, right?

[Doniston]

Ok, consider that Israel somehow managed to get all those Saudis and Egyptians on planes, to hit the towers. That the Israelis has packed with explosives. That they had convinced GW, working in concert with Mosad, to act like he was clueless, but come out later as strong. Now what? Apparently you must beleive at least "some" of that. youv'e got it down so perfecrly HEH HEH

[chum43]

Well you didn't 'say' it, but you are implying that it's all GW's fault, right?

no, not at all in fact... I voted for him in 2004... my point this whole time has been that the problem with the middle east started long long long before 2001 and to say that it was a rogue terrorist act that was done because we're free is one of the stupidest and simplistic things anyone can say, and yet if you say anything else it's as if you took a shit on 9/11 hero rudy giuliani's face.

it's a war and things happen, it's reacting to events under false pretenses that cause problems.

anything I've ever said that sounded like I sided with 9/11 "truthers" was simply saying it was a possibility, although a far out possibility... the only thing that isn't a possibility is that 9/11 was completely unrelated to anything but a jihadist effort to kill freedom.

[Kathianne]

no, not at all in fact... I voted for him in 2004... my point this whole time has been that the problem with the middle east started long long long before 2001 and to say that it was a rogue terrorist act that was done because we're free is one of the stupidest and simplistic things anyone can say, and yet if you say anything else it's as if you took a shit on 9/11 hero rudy giuliani's face.

it's a war and things happen, it's reacting to events under false pretenses that cause problems.

anything I've ever said that sounded like I sided with 9/11 "truthers" was simply saying it was a possibility, although a far out possibility... the only thing that isn't a possibility is that 9/11 was completely unrelated to anything but a jihadist effort to kill freedom.

Being a non conspiracy typer person, I haven't an inkling to GW being involved in 9/11 or the aftermath regarding Iraq or Afghanistan. Both I believe were undertaken for legitimate reasons. Now regarding today, I'm unsure that what the administration is requesting of the troops is in any way related to what they wish to ballyhoo.

[chum43]

Being a non conspiracy typer person, I haven't an inkling to GW being involved in 9/11 or the aftermath regarding Iraq or Afghanistan. Both I believe were undertaken for legitimate reasons. Now regarding today, I'm unsure that what the administration is requesting of the troops is in any way related to what they wish to ballyhoo.

well i assure you that all that gw involvement possibility stuff is far fetched and my arguments made today are completely unrelated, my only contention in this thread is that it's not radical muslims trying to kill america, it's radical muslims in a war where we are their enemy.

[nevadamedic]

Simply BS they started in 1947/8 Once more you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Actually they have been fighting since the days of Christ.

[Rahul]

Then why is it that 25% of muslims here in America between the age of 17 and 25 think it is perfectly fine to strap a bomb to their body and go blow up a crowd of innocent, men, women and children?

Where did you pull that stat from? And I don't think 25 percent of Muslims believe in that.


Great, now you do not need to report anymore posts because of smilies.

I haven't reported a single post just because of smilies. Duh.


Look at your words. "There have Been". Not, THERE ARE. Christians, as a group, rejected violence to spread their faith. Seems a LARGE portion of Muslims DAILY RELY on violence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism ... 1990, 2001 - these aren't that long ago. ;)

[nevadamedic]

Where did you pull that stat from? And I don't think 25 percent of Muslims believe in that.



I haven't reported a single post just because of smilies. Duh.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism ... 1990, 2001 - these aren't that long ago. ;)

That doesn't happen as often as Muslim Terrorism.

[Rahul]

That doesn't happen as often as Muslim Terrorism.

You have dodged the point being made, and haven't answered the question.

[Kathianne]

no, not at all in fact... I voted for him in 2004... my point this whole time has been that the problem with the middle east started long long long before 2001 and to say that it was a rogue terrorist act that was done because we're free is one of the stupidest and simplistic things anyone can say, and yet if you say anything else it's as if you took a shit on 9/11 hero rudy giuliani's face.

it's a war and things happen, it's reacting to events under false pretenses that cause problems.

anything I've ever said that sounded like I sided with 9/11 "truthers" was simply saying it was a possibility, although a far out possibility... the only thing that isn't a possibility is that 9/11 was completely unrelated to anything but a jihadist effort to kill freedom.

On that we agree. I've not a clue to why bin laden chose 9/11 or WTC, either in 1993 or 2001, other than symbolism. I think it had less to do with US and more to do with the lack of achievement by THEM.

They really never lived up to the hype per Medieval Times. Yes, they did some things, but their math and science 'achievements' were on the back of the West. Glory.

[Doniston]

Actually they have been fighting since the days of Christ. True, but this phase started when England gave them stolen land