Twelve questions about a citizen's duty. A quiz for those that dare to answer..

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

12 questions about the current state of this nation and its current government.. 1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President? 2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason? 3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ? 4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation? 5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation? 6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason? 7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration? 8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? 9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason? 10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN? 11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you? 12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------CAN YOU, WILL YOU DARE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS? ANSWERS DO NOT NEED TO BE ESSAYS BUT CLARITY AND HONESTY WILL BE APPRECIATED.--TYR

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

12 questions about the current state of this nation and its current government.. 1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President? 2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason? 3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ? 4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation? 5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation? 6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason? 7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration? 8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? 9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason? 10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN? 11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you? 12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------CAN YOU, WILL YOU DARE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS? ANSWERS DO NOT NEED TO BE ESSAYS BUT CLARITY AND HONESTY WILL BE APPRECIATED.--TYR MY ANSWERS. 1.YES (we are duty bound). 2. YES 3. YES 4. YES 5. YES 6. YES 7. YES. 8. NO. 9. YES. 10. YES. 11.NO, NOT AFRAID. 12. YES..

[aboutime]

12 questions about the current state of this nation and its current government.. 1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President? 2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason? 3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ? 4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation? 5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation? 6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason? 7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration? 8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? 9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason? 10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN? 11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you? 12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------CAN YOU, WILL YOU DARE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS? ANSWERS DO NOT NEED TO BE ESSAYS BUT CLARITY AND HONESTY WILL BE APPRECIATED.--TYR


Tyr. NOT AFRAID TO ANSWER ANY QUESTION.

1.Yes
2.Yes
3.Yes
4.Yes
5.Yes
6.Yes
7.Yes
8.No
9.Yes
10.Yes
11.No
12. Yes. Does 30 years in uniform mean ANYTHING, any more?

[gabosaurus]

Dude, come on. I could have posed the same questions about Dubya. Get off your high horse and give it a rest.

http://www.southbayriders.com/forums/attachments/428801/

[aboutime]

Dude, come on. I could have posed the same questions about Dubya. Get off your high horse and give it a rest.

http://www.southbayriders.com/forums/attachments/428801/



GABBY. Do you have parents?

If so. Did they ever have any children that survived the abortion?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Tyr. NOT AFRAID TO ANSWER ANY QUESTION.

1.Yes
2.Yes
3.Yes
4.Yes
5.Yes
6.Yes
7.Yes
8.No
9.Yes
10.Yes
11.No
12. Yes. Does 30 years in uniform mean ANYTHING, any more? Bravo--:beer: --:flyflag: Yes , thirty years in uniform doing your sworn duty means you have both my gratitude and my respect. For your sacrifice and your dedication we can never truly pay you its true value. Best any of us can do is give you a sincere thanks! Too many Americans have been taught that patriotism is an evil to be avoided. Those of us that understand liberty and freedom know it is instead a sacred duty. Tyr note: Now who else dares to exercise their freedom of speech and thereby voice their opinions by answering those questions? Disagreeing with others answers is fine. Its your right to disagree.

[gabosaurus]

http://suaaddartistry.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/moderator-kitteh.jpg

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Dude, come on. I could have posed the same questions about Dubya. Get off your high horse and give it a rest.

http://www.southbayriders.com/forums/attachments/428801/ So who stopped you? Damn sure was not me! Hell, nobody is stopping you now. Go ahead start a thread about it, I'll answer in that thread and I'll answer honestly even if it means my agreeing with your answer. Your attempt to ridicule those questions in this forum on ethics is lame Gabby. By the way, no you could not have legitimately posed the EXACT SAME questions about Bush? I do not ride a high horse but I do cling to my bible, guns and keyboard!--Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://suaaddartistry.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/moderator-kitteh.jpg
Take your disapproval of my exercising my right of free speech and shove it. Here is pic for you and they must be your kind of people , = fat, lazy liberals.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/p480x480/553186_397669790261193_1354032459_n.jpg

[aboutime]

http://suaaddartistry.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/moderator-kitteh.jpg



Wow. Does anyone reading this "KNOW WHAT TIME OF THE MONTH IT IS FOR GABBY?"

Wait a second. That's not possible, and not the right question. Female Dog's never have that problem.

Clarify why you are such a miserable, ignorant, dummy Gabby.

[Noir]

1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President? - Yes.
2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason? - No
3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ? - No
4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation? - No
5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation? - Yes
6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason? - Heavily weighted question, No.
7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration? -Yes.
8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? - No.
9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason? - Yes.
10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN? - No.
11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you? - No.
12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? - No.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President? - Yes.
2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason? - No
3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ? - No
4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation? - No
5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation? - Yes
6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason? - Heavily weighted question, No.
7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration? -Yes.
8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? - No.
9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason? - Yes.
10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN? - No.
11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you? - No.
12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? - No. ^^^^^^^^^^ Bravo, very well done sir. :beer:----:clap: I do not agree with all of your answers but your giving your honest opinion on each carries its own respect..-Tyr

[revelarts]

1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President?
yes, in various ways

2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason?
Yes, but so should have Bush, And Biden won't be any better

3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ?
Yes, but the Rs and Ds are working on a plutocratic agenda though, rule by the elites

4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation?
ur, yes. but i'm not primarily thinking of the terrorist

5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation?
As much as any partisan politician does.

6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason?
As long as we include the treasonous republicans in the bunch too.

7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration?
Many on the right were unaware of it while Bush was in office many on left are denial not all though.
in general more are aware now, since Obama has push it farther and his full blown hypocracy is on rights issues plain as the sun.


8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ?
H3LL No. Not any any nation.

9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason?
Yes. And Lindsey Graham will be in FULL support of him.

10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN?
Something needs to be done. Getting all of the congress to step down at the same time wouldn't hurt. if it could be done. I think partisan politics would make it very difficult to do.
And to many police and military willing to just "follow orders" at this point. Not to mention the majority of people who would just not get it. Along with the legal, lawful, proper channel, quibliers who would rather wait for the next election to vote in someone who will change nothing but more of the same, but at least makes the right noises.

[aboutime]

Take your disapproval of my exercising my right of free speech and shove it. Here is pic for you and they must be your kind of people , = fat, lazy liberals.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/p480x480/553186_397669790261193_1354032459_n.jpg



Tyr. Okay buddy. You can tell us the truth now. Which one is GABBY?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President?
yes, in various ways

2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason?
Yes, but so should have Bush, And Biden won't be any better

3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ?
Yes, but the Rs and Ds are working on a plutocratic agenda though, rule by the elites

4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation?
ur, yes. but i'm not primarily thinking of the terrorist

5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation?
As much as any partisan politician does.

6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason?
As long as we include the treasonous republicans in the bunch too.

7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration?
Many on the right were unaware of it while Bush was in office many on left are denial not all though.
in general more are aware now, since Obama has push it farther and his full blown hypocracy is on rights issues plain as the sun.


8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ?
H3LL No. Not any any nation.

9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason?
Yes. And Lindsey Graham will be in FULL support of him.

10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN?
Something needs to be done. Getting all of the congress to step down at the same time wouldn't hurt. if it could be done. I think partisan politics would make it very difficult to do.
And to many police and military willing to just "follow orders" at this point. Not to mention the majority of people who would just not get it. Along with the legal, lawful, proper channel, quibliers who would rather wait for the next election to vote in someone who will change nothing but more of the same, but at least makes the right noises.
Bravo. -:beer: Another that understands freedom of speech. Rev. you missed answering questions 11 and 12. However maybe you chose not to bother with them, its cool either way. I almost added in an unlucky number 13 question-- "Which nation do you think Obama will chose to send in foreign troops when/if he makes his move against true American citizens in the future"? What the hell, consider it added so anybody can answer it as a bonus question should they choose to do so. My answer would be he would choose either Russian or Chinese troops.-Tyr

[gabosaurus]

Back in 2005, there were quite a few liberals that felt much the same way about Bush that many of you feel about Obama. We wanted to organize protests and march on Washington. We did stage quite a few protests that brought some cities to a standstill.
Conservatives felt we were traitors who hated our country. That not supporting our President was endangering the troops by demonstrating weakness and a divided nation. And that, like him or dislike him, we should the president because he represented America.
We wanted Bush impeached. Conservatives laughed at us and call us traitors.
We disliked the Patriot Act and the government spying on us, tapping our phones and reading our mail. Conservatives stated that it was necessary to preserve freedom, and that if we had nothing to hide, we had nothing to fear.
There were questions about going after American citizens of Middle Eastern descent, or just Muslims. Many conservatives wanted them taken out by hit squads. Forget drones, just kill them.

Of course, now the Dems are in charge, and conservatives have done a complete 180. Everything that allowable under Bush was now treasonous under Obama.
Funny how those things work.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Back in 2005, there were quite a few liberals that felt much the same way about Bush that many of you feel about Obama. We wanted to organize protests and march on Washington. We did stage quite a few protests that brought some cities to a standstill.
Conservatives felt we were traitors who hated our country. That not supporting our President was endangering the troops by demonstrating weakness and a divided nation. And that, like him or dislike him, we should the president because he represented America.
We wanted Bush impeached. Conservatives laughed at us and call us traitors.
We disliked the Patriot Act and the government spying on us, tapping our phones and reading our mail. Conservatives stated that it was necessary to preserve freedom, and that if we had nothing to hide, we had nothing to fear.
There were questions about going after American citizens of Middle Eastern descent, or just Muslims. Many conservatives wanted them taken out by hit squads. Forget drones, just kill them.

Of course, now the Dems are in charge, and conservatives have done a complete 180. Everything that allowable under Bush was now treasonous under Obama.
Funny how those things work. HA, WHERE IS THAT THREAD WITH THE SAME TWELVE QUESTIONS ABOUT BUSH? You made the boast now deliver ... I'll answer every damn question you ask and will not ridicule you for posting your opinion and queries.-Tyr


Dude, come on. I could have posed the same questions about Dubya. Get off your high horse and give it a rest.

[Jeff]

12 questions about the current state of this nation and its current government.. 1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President? 2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason? 3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ? 4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation? 5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation? 6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason? 7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration? 8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? 9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason? 10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN? 11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you? 12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------CAN YOU, WILL YOU DARE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS? ANSWERS DO NOT NEED TO BE ESSAYS BUT CLARITY AND HONESTY WILL BE APPRECIATED.--TYR

1)yes
2)yes
3)yes
4)yes
5)Yes
6)yes
7)yes
8)NO
9)Yes
10)yes
11)not at all
12)yes

[Jeff]

Back in 2005, there were quite a few liberals that felt much the same way about Bush that many of you feel about Obama. We wanted to organize protests and march on Washington. We did stage quite a few protests that brought some cities to a standstill.
Conservatives felt we were traitors who hated our country. That not supporting our President was endangering the troops by demonstrating weakness and a divided nation. And that, like him or dislike him, we should the president because he represented America.
We wanted Bush impeached. Conservatives laughed at us and call us traitors.
We disliked the Patriot Act and the government spying on us, tapping our phones and reading our mail. Conservatives stated that it was necessary to preserve freedom, and that if we had nothing to hide, we had nothing to fear.
There were questions about going after American citizens of Middle Eastern descent, or just Muslims. Many conservatives wanted them taken out by hit squads. Forget drones, just kill them.

Of course, now the Dems are in charge, and conservatives have done a complete 180. Everything that allowable under Bush was now treasonous under Obama.
Funny how those things work.
Gaby this cycle will go on as long as there is more than one party

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

1)yes
2)yes
3)yes
4)yes
5)Yes
6)yes
7)yes
8)NO
9)Yes
10)yes
11)not at all
12)yes Bravo.--:beer:. Knew you would answer them , had not a single doubt on that. :clap: Freedom of speech is alive and well as long as we refuse to abandon it!!!--Tyr

[Gaffer]

Gaby this cycle will go on as long as there is more than one party

That's what the dems want to "fix".

[revelarts]

Gaby this cycle will go on as long as there is more than one party

It will go on as long as most people fall for it.

[revelarts]

Back in 2005, there were quite a few liberals that felt much the same way about Bush that many of you feel about Obama. We wanted to organize protests and march on Washington. We did stage quite a few protests that brought some cities to a standstill.
Conservatives felt we were traitors who hated our country. That not supporting our President was endangering the troops by demonstrating weakness and a divided nation. And that, like him or dislike him, we should the president because he represented America.
We wanted Bush impeached. Conservatives laughed at us and call us traitors.
We disliked the Patriot Act and the government spying on us, tapping our phones and reading our mail. Conservatives stated that it was necessary to preserve freedom, and that if we had nothing to hide, we had nothing to fear.
There were questions about going after American citizens of Middle Eastern descent, or just Muslims. Many conservatives wanted them taken out by hit squads. Forget drones, just kill them.

Of course, now the Dems are in charge, and conservatives have done a complete 180. (and Many Dems have done the same or at least can find excuses why it's OK for OBAMA.) Everything that allowable under Bush was now treasonous under Obama. (Everything that was treasonous Under Bush is Now "well managed" under Obama)
Funny how those things work.

It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.
And shows how gulible the rank and file Americans are.

[Larrymc]

12 questions about the current state of this nation and its current government.. 1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President? 2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason? 3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ? 4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation? 5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation? 6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason? 7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration? 8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? 9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason? 10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN? 11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you? 12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------CAN YOU, WILL YOU DARE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS? ANSWERS DO NOT NEED TO BE ESSAYS BUT CLARITY AND HONESTY WILL BE APPRECIATED.--TYR1 thru 7 and 12 is YES 11 No im on the fence with 8 and 9 i think there could be situations that could call for such actions depending on the crime and urgency to stop it, I will be watching to see others answers, and why

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

1 thru 7 and 12 is YES 11 No im on the fence with 8 and 9 i think there could be situations that could call for such actions depending on the crime and urgency to stop it, I will be watching to see others answers, and why Another member that believes in free speech and is not afraid to openly post what he thinks. Bravo.-:beer:. -Tyr

[WiccanLiberal]

12 questions about the current state of this nation and its current government.. 1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President? 2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason? 3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ? 4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation? 5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation? 6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason? 7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration? 8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? 9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason? 10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN? 11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you? 12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------CAN YOU, WILL YOU DARE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS? ANSWERS DO NOT NEED TO BE ESSAYS BUT CLARITY AND HONESTY WILL BE APPRECIATED.--TYR



Okay here goes
1. Yes
2. Yes on the issue of his knowledge and involvement in the IRS targeting issue.
3. No. Other democratic presidents have pursued extreme agendas.
4. No
5. No but any drastic position will promote such division
6. Yes and the way to do so is by promoting and electing candidates who will operate within the system to come up with solutions that are acceptable to a majority of the country. Not every Democrat supports the President.
7. Yes. I think most Americans have been unaware of their rights being eroded for SEVERAL administrations, not just this one.
8. No
9. Yes
10. Yes. Public assembly is always our right, but the Constitution contains the remedy in impeachment.
11. No
12. Yes

[Robert A Whit]

12 questions about the current state of this nation and its current government.. 1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President? 2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason? 3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ? 4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation? 5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation? 6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason? 7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration? 8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? 9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason? 10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN? 11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you? 12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------CAN YOU, WILL YOU DARE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS? ANSWERS DO NOT NEED TO BE ESSAYS BUT CLARITY AND HONESTY WILL BE APPRECIATED.--TYR

1. Yes 2. Impeached --YES; no treason 3. Yes 4. I don't know 5. Yes 6. Getting late in the day for that but I don't believe it is treason. More like high crimes and misdemeanors. 7. I believe they are in the dark as you pose the question. 8. No, he does not. 9. Certainly. 10. Should he do that, I will be in the front of the pack. 11. Not one bit. 12. Certainly I do and am yes to that too.

[Robert A Whit]

Back in 2005, there were quite a few liberals that felt much the same way about Bush that many of you feel about Obama. We wanted to organize protests and march on Washington. We did stage quite a few protests that brought some cities to a standstill.
Conservatives felt we were traitors who hated our country. That not supporting our President was endangering the troops by demonstrating weakness and a divided nation. And that, like him or dislike him, we should the president because he represented America.
We wanted Bush impeached. Conservatives laughed at us and call us traitors.
We disliked the Patriot Act and the government spying on us, tapping our phones and reading our mail. Conservatives stated that it was necessary to preserve freedom, and that if we had nothing to hide, we had nothing to fear.
There were questions about going after American citizens of Middle Eastern descent, or just Muslims. Many conservatives wanted them taken out by hit squads. Forget drones, just kill them.

Of course, now the Dems are in charge, and conservatives have done a complete 180. Everything that allowable under Bush was now treasonous under Obama.
Funny how those things work.

Every act Bush took had the approval of Congress.

You had no cause of action other than wishful dreaming to impeach Bush since at all times his acts were approved by congress.

But look at Obama, he breaks the law very often. The Dream proclamation is illegal. So is his willful violation of the health care law.

The Patriot act was strongly believed in by Congress. I still to this day believe it is modeled on the RICO laws that long have been the law of the USA.

Were you talking to terrorists? If not, you were not tapped. I am still not persuaded that even Obama taps our calls but believe he has phone records showing the pair of phone numbers on each call or more in the case of conference calls.

[jimnyc]

HA, WHERE IS THAT THREAD WITH THE SAME TWELVE QUESTIONS ABOUT BUSH? You made the boast now deliver ... I'll answer every damn question you ask and will not ridicule you for posting your opinion and queries.-Tyr

You're wasting your time. She can't discuss solely Obama and answer questions, her brain can only have her repeat "Bush" as much as possible. And she won't start a thread, as the conservatives here are smart and honest, and she knows she'll fail when some point out the many issues that we had with GWB. She doesn't want to let go of her love affair for Obama, even when he is slowly slinking to one of the worst ranked presidents this country has ever seen. Hell, she won't even discuss the lives he is "responsible" for in Iraq and Afghanistan, Libya and such, it's all Bush, regardless of McChimpy's shit decisions, campaign lies, "most transparent administration ever", Benghazi, Fast and Furious, AP hacking, NSA.... I could go on forever, but it's a waste of time when the uneducated can only reply with "Bush".

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Okay here goes
1. Yes
2. Yes on the issue of his knowledge and involvement in the IRS targeting issue.
3. No. Other democratic presidents have pursued extreme agendas.
4. No
5. No but any drastic position will promote such division
6. Yes and the way to do so is by promoting and electing candidates who will operate within the system to come up with solutions that are acceptable to a majority of the country. Not every Democrat supports the President.
7. Yes. I think most Americans have been unaware of their rights being eroded for SEVERAL administrations, not just this one.
8. No
9. Yes
10. Yes. Public assembly is always our right, but the Constitution contains the remedy in impeachment.
11. No
12. Yes Bravo..-:beer:. Exercising freedom of speech is exactly why I created this thread. You and others have shown THAT AT LEAST the members here believe in it and will do it without fear of future actions. I for one am quite pleased to see how many here thought it worthwhile to answer and had no fear of any future actions taken against them. Those opposed to our way of life use fear first and foremost. We must not aid them by embracing that fear. Good job one and all so far IMHO. -Tyr

[fj1200]

1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President? Yes.
2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason? Impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors of which treason would be included if you can prove it.
3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ? No.
4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation? Who are our enemies and how are they being aided?
5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation? Yes,
6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason?
7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration? Yes
8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? Not yet.
9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason? Maybe.
10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN? Your premise aside, yes we have the right and duty.
11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you? No. But not because someone is supposedly reading it.
12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? Yes.

And rev is also right, this didn't start 5 years ago.

[QUOTE=Tyr-Ziu Saxnot;652089]Which nation do you think Obama will chose to send in foreign troops when/if he makes his move against true American citizens in the future"?

:facepalm99:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

[QUOTE=Tyr-Ziu Saxnot;652015]1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President? Yes.
2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason? Impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors of which treason would be included if you can prove it.
3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ? No.
4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation? Who are our enemies and how are they being aided?
5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation? Yes,
6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason?
7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration? Yes
8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? Not yet.
9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason? Maybe.
10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN? Your premise aside, yes we have the right and duty.
11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you? No. But not because someone is supposedly reading it.
12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? Yes.

And rev is also right, this didn't start 5 years ago.



:facepalm99: Bravo!--:beer:. I certainly do not agree with all your answers but you did exercise your freedom of speech right and I do believe you answered honestly your views! Another mark for that too. I do not disagree with that . I know this started a several decades ago. Obama is the snowball almost at the bottom of the hill.-Tyr

[red state]

I'm more inclined to ride with the Rev on this one but Rob also hit the target so, if I could, I'd give both posters the Golden Arrow Award.

I couldn't stand Bush but voted on the lessor of two evils (THREE BUSH TICKETS with a Perot ticket somewhere in the middle). What really stinks is that I've just about ALWAYS had to vote "lessor of two evils" and I'm sick of it. Only once did I vote for a candidate that didn't have an R in front of their name and I swore that I'd never waste my vote again with the disgrace that Slick Willie gave the White House. Carter was terrible but at least he "acted" appropriately or behaved himself. I have now vowed to NEVER vote for a presidential candidate who was for abortion, gun control, open borders, homosexual marriage and increased taxes. I realize this means that I'll probably never again vote (other than local and State) but I'm sick of "lessor of two evils". I'm almost angry enough to simply vote for a dimocrat presidential candidate if the R's keep sending us a Mittens or a McLame.

As for the Bonus Question: Why would we EVER forget Mexico....the dims are moving the troops as we speak (write). However, and in all seriousness, the GREATEST enemy for us to fear has been with us the entire time.....no need for "foreign" troops. The Russians knew this and predicted it YEARS ago!!! Look it up. America will fall without so much as firing a single shot.....in essence, we've had our shot that was heard around the world and now we have the silence that was heard around the world. Yes, the silent revolution has been going on for decades now and the victory seems to be the DARK SIDE. And to the ignorant who merely gab away, that is not a racial statement.

We need a Washington but an Allen West will do. Unfortunately, the R's pushed him under the bus (after stabbing him in the back). He's a wasted talent (IF) or when he takes Rubio's seat. We should have demanded REAL change years ago and should have started weeding out the rhinos after the Slick Willie years (truly after REAGAN). One Bush was too much and we should have started waking up and demanding Constitutional Justice for the past 40 to 50 years. Truly, pride goeth before the fall and we've been "handling snakes" since the days of good ole honest Abe. We've been bitten a few times during the early 1900's but we kept playing with those darn snakes that brought us the IRS and other tyrannies that our founders warned us about. Land Taxes are unConstitutional as they make WE THE PEOPLE tenants instead of land owners (as the founders intended and made specific provisions for....just as they did for other parts of the Constitution that seems to be so out of focus to many) I just wonder.....had Perot been president, we may have avoided much and profited more. we'll never know but we certainly know how our denial, stubbornness or ignorance has turned out (both Dim and Rep).

I apologize for another lengthy post but this topic deserved a thorough and heart felt answer.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I'm more inclined to ride with the Rev on this one but Rob also hit the target so, if I could, I'd give both posters the Golden Arrow Award.

I couldn't stand Bush but voted on the lessor of two evils (THREE BUSH TICKETS with a Perot ticket somewhere in the middle). What really stinks is that I've just about ALWAYS had to vote "lessor of two evils" and I'm sick of it. Only once did I vote for a candidate that didn't have an R in front of their name and I swore that I'd never waste my vote again with the disgrace that Slick Willie gave the White House. Carter was terrible but at least he "acted" appropriately or behaved himself. I have now vowed to NEVER vote for a presidential candidate who was for abortion, gun control, open borders, homosexual marriage and increased taxes. I realize this means that I'll probably never again vote (other than local and State) but I'm sick of "lessor of two evils". I'm almost angry enough to simply vote for a dimocrat presidential candidate if the R's keep sending us a Mittens or a McLame.

As for the Bonus Question: Why would we EVER forget Mexico....the dims are moving the troops as we speak (write). However, and in all seriousness, the GREATEST enemy for us to fear has been with us the entire time.....no need for "foreign" troops. The Russians knew this and predicted it YEARS ago!!! Look it up. America will fall without so much as firing a single shot.....in essence, we've had our shot that was heard around the world and now we have the silence that was heard around the world. Yes, the silent revolution has been going on for decades now and the victory seems to be the DARK SIDE. And to the ignorant who merely gab away, that is not a racial statement.

We need a Washington but an Allen West will do. Unfortunately, the R's pushed him under the bus (after stabbing him in the back). He's a wasted talent (IF) or when he takes Rubio's seat. We should have demanded REAL change years ago and should have started weeding out the rhinos after the Slick Willie years (truly after REAGAN). One Bush was too much and we should have started waking up and demanding Constitutional Justice for the past 40 to 50 years. Truly, pride goeth before the fall and we've been "handling snakes" since the days of good ole honest Abe. We've been bitten a few times during the early 1900's but we kept playing with those darn snakes that brought us the IRS and other tyrannies that our founders warned us about. Land Taxes are unConstitutional as they make WE THE PEOPLE tenants instead of land owners (as the founders intended and made specific provisions for....just as they did for other parts of the Constitution that seems to be so out of focus to many) I just wonder.....had Perot been president, we may have avoided much and profited more. we'll never know but we certainly know how our denial, stubbornness or ignorance has turned out (both Dim and Rep).

I apologize for another lengthy post but this topic deserved a thorough and heart felt answer. A nice long and informative post my friend. I'm not on board with 100% of it but 95% should be close enough. What has happened is America chose to play instead of working and that had very dire consequences. Each time a period came in which very strong action was called for we punted and that accumulation allowed the snowball to just keep on rolling until we got an Obama! Obama has done far more harm that all the previous azzhats combined. Sure Wilson ffed up and so did FDR. Too much greed and corruption has had its effects on this nation. Now our government has joined us with the New World Order but we citizens haven't been told yet and will not be told until they disarm us! That's their next big push before they start rounding up the "mental cases" that will not go along with the New Program. And guess what those patriotic "mental cases" will not be celebrated and admired for their stand by the majority of the sheeple. Instead they'll be viewed as malcontents and traitors thanks to the ongoing reeducation program the dem/lib/leftists have managed to install by way of our Public Education System. It only took 50 years , the first 10 years to lay the foundation and 40 more years to build the house. That's right the House of ignorance , blindness and appeasement. Many other factors in play but yes we've done it to ourselves and now foreign influences will not allow us to stop the ball in play. I have ever reason to believe a revolution will be forced and that forcing will not be done by the citizens but rather by the government. Only they'll force it when they feel we are weak enough to be conquered. Everything points to that and its the standard type of play that has so often brought in a dictatorship. Germany in the 30's comes to mind. Maybe it will not be Obama but sure as hell everything points to his being the guy. WHY?= BECAUSE HE HATES ALL 57 STATES AND IS A CERTIFIED FFING TRAITOR.--Tyr

[red state]

I assume that you like Bush Senior as the reason for not agreeing with me 110%.....or could it be my support when I was but a lad casting my second vote for president which was to a greenie? Perhaps our parting of ways lays at the door of my awful example of how to get back at the pretenders for continually giving us LOSERS and LIARS. I know it isn't the part that we've allowed too much for 100+ years....you've made that clear.

What would you let slide in a candidate?

Open Borders

Abortion

Homosexual Marriage

More Taxes

More Control (be it green or gun)

More involvement

Affirmative Action


If it is any easier to express, place them in order by which you hold importance and I'll do the same. OR simply list what you WILL not Tolerate for our 2016 candidate.

[red state]

Open Borders...........empty promises or not, this would be my least forgivable sin (IF) a candidate leans toward a Rubion solution.

More Control (be it green or gun or other)....Give us a candidate who supports MORE CONTROL and I'll climb the friggin' walls!!!

More Taxes..............empty promises or not, taxation is killing us and I'd highly favor a candidate to (at least) do away with the Rich/Death tax.

More involvement......If a candidate even mentioned more involvement overseas, I'll chew nails. we've technology & we need troops on our border.

Abortion...................I believe we are winning this and/or will win this eventually but I want someone who sees life for what it is.

Homosexual Marriage...Get your nose out of my back pocket and my bedroom BUT what is fair for one group should be fair for another....DO NOT TELL CHURCHES WHO THEY MUST WED!!!!! That is as big with me as the 2nd Amendment.


Affirmative Action.....rid us of reverse discrimination (we've elected a black man TWICE now).

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I assume that you like Bush Senior as the reason for not agreeing with me 110%.....or could it be my support when I was but a lad casting my second vote for president which was to a greenie? Perhaps our parting of ways lays at the door of my awful example of how to get back at the pretenders for continually giving us LOSERS and LIARS. I know it isn't the part that we've allowed too much for 100+ years....you've made that clear.

What would you let slide in a candidate?

Open Borders

Abortion

Homosexual Marriage

More Taxes

More Control (be it green or gun)

More involvement

Affirmative Action


If it is any easier to express, place them in order by which you hold importance and I'll do the same. OR simply list what you WILL not Tolerate for our 2016 candidate. Actually I disagree on the not voting Republican part my friend. When only two choices are given voting for the lesser evil is a must IMHO. You hate doing that and so do I. Yet to not vote for the lesser evil is to aid the greater one. Just that simple. There is no third party system and no real change by tossing your vote away. That was my only disagreement and hell will freeze over before I ever vote for any damn democrat. Any member of that treasonous party should be in jail rather than making law to void our rights. Lets not quibble. We both agree and know we are over halfway into the rise of a dictatorship and the people are for the greater part unwilling to rise up to protect their freedoms. That is they will be until its too late to do so without violence becoming the primary focus of change. Yes sir, we put the frog in the pot and we turned on the burner. Now others are doing the cooking. Those new cooks are hellbent on finishing the job. Sorry, got to run an errand more later if you think this not adequate my friend. -Tyr

[revelarts]

misspost...

[red state]

Tyr, I thought that is what you disagreed on but I just wanted to re-post the possibilities for discussion sake. Many folks have different variables and I wanted them out there.

You know darn well that I'd never vote for a dim.....that was simply frustrated talk to illustrate the disparity of the situation. As for NEVER having a 3rd party.....we'll NEVER have a 3rd party if folks foolishly stand with a Republican Party that no longer protects the values that ARE Republican. What we have now is a one party system with moderate dims and extremist of the left but make no bones about it.....most are ALL dims. I can name only a few who'd trust to represent me within most of my beliefs.

Take the Mississippi law makers.... For the first time in a long, long time (if ever) Mississippi has a Super majority YET they opened up a debate for a law that was and HAS already been into existence since Mississippi became a State (to the best of my knowledge) and since re-hatching the OPEN CARRY, a single judge has now deemed it unlawful to open carry (in so many words). I'm sure most Mississippians feel betrayed and this is just one example of what our representatives of Mississippi and Tennessee have done to slap the Southern Red States in the face. I actually feel that this is a back door they have began to employ to stab us in the back with a hidden agenda. Now B.O. is using SELF DEFENSE as a debating tool for more gun control. How ignorant is that. Look, Martin was NOT chased and was NOT backed into a corner. He hunted what he finally determined as a "weak" victim and he acted upon that cowardly character. When he thought he was the weaker, he RAN like the coward he was. He asked for the bull but got the horns and I truly believe we are better off without such despicable Americans because their obvious and proven hatred has ruined this Nation.

I find it hard to NOT hate B.O. supporters (whether black, white or other). They are our enemy because the steal, lie, rape and murder.

Gotta run after a while, so I'll leave it to you guys....take care of my thread for me while I'm away (just a few "likes" and that is it). HA!!!

[revelarts]

Actually I disagree on the not voting Republican part my friend. When only two choices are given voting for the lesser evil is a must IMHO. You hate doing that and so do I. Yet to not vote for the lesser evil is to aid the greater one. Just that simple. There is no third party system and no real change by tossing your vote away. That was my only disagreement and hell will freeze over before I ever vote for any damn democrat. Any member of that treasonous party should be in jail rather than making law to void our rights. Lets not quibble. We both agree and know we are over halfway into the rise of a dictatorship and the people are for the greater part unwilling to rise up to protect their freedoms. That is they will be until its too late to do so without violence becoming the primary focus of change. Yes sir, we put the frog in the pot and we turned on the burner. Now others are doing the cooking. Those new cooks are hellbent on finishing the job. Sorry, got to run an errand more later if you think this not adequate my friend. -Tyr

Tyr, you know I appreciate your take on lot issues. But here i've got to challenge you on voting for republicans or any evils.
You've mentioned at the beginning of the post that marching to DC and possibly physically drag the crooks out of office might be an option. In other places you mention force of arms as a last resort to tyranny.
Won't you consider voting 3rd party before it come to those harsher terms? Seems a better 1st step than the Hot alternatives don't you think.
WE have evidence that the R's are JUST AS BAD on the issues of main concern in this thread.
why vote for killing only the right American citizens. When you can vote for a party Or even writing in a man that wants to GET back to the constitution? .
we've been going along to get along for FAR to long.

Fight the gov't with a radical votes, radical disengagement from gov't programs, radical self sufficiency, and radical refusal to cooperate with our own demise.
Before a full blown hot revolution. A Hot revolution that will probably end , after the smoke clears, with just the same elites emerging from their bunkers and maneuvering over whats left of the country, claiming to bring order in "transition" back to the Constitution. "if it weren't for those dang -fill in the blank- political enemies who won't cooperate " .
same game new day.

Basically it's a LIE that the "only" choice are the D's or R's. Ask yourself who's telling us that?
Look at history, The country has had Several 3rd party rivals that have change the course of the country. and frankly every radical change came BECAUSE of 3rd parties.
don't buy into the BS Hype from the MSM and the R and D national commitee's. we've still got a multi party option we are not China yet, THEY have only one choice.
Voting for a D or and R mean voting for the 2 sides to the same bad coin. it is only ONE choice. But don't ASSUME you have no other choice .
IS it AGAINST THE LAW to vote 3rd party? Don't act like it is then. take the mental chains off, vote for more than lip service change.
Those R-&-D scum bags don't mean a D@mn thing they say about the constitution.

[aboutime]

If, and When we ever get a really viable, recognized, electable 3rd party candidate to run for President.

I personally refuse to vote for any party so destined to DESTROY our nation. Not because they are R's, or D's. But because they
work very hard between elections to get elected again...as long as the GULLIBLE, UNEDUCATED Americans from coast to coast fall for Promises that are NEVER kept...since promises are IMPOSSIBLE to keep in this nation.

I refuse to vote for Dems who are intentionally leading us into perpetual dependence on government...all in the PHONY CLAIM of the American Dream????

For as long as I have been alive, and understood what Independence, Success, and Hard Work accomplish.
Only once, have I seen a Democrat who didn't have HIS POLITICAL CAREER on his shoulder.
And Lee Harvey Oswald denied that person the right to make America Whole.

[cadet]

12 questions about the current state of this nation and its current government..

1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President?

Yes, anyone who knows our history knows that that was one of the things the founding fathers absolutely agreed with.


2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason?

I hate to agree that a president should be impeached. He should step down so that we don't end up getting into the habit of impeachment. Even Nixon had the compassion to make sure we didn't get into that habit, and he didn't do anything NEAR as bad as Obama.


3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ?

Yes, he swore to uphold the constitution and is breaking that swear. A man is only as good as his word.


4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation?

Not sure, I just think he's stupid enough to not realize that he is. Ie) the rebels that we're aiding, that just happen to be a part of Al quieda


5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation?

Not deliberately, I think he's just a stupid racist who doesn't know how to run a country.


6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason?

Obama, yes. Dem, no. Not all dems are stupid morons. And I do agree with some of their things. But disagree with a lot. Most dems are just misguided.


7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration?

Yeah, this country's population is oblivious. There are plenty of videos in other threads pointing out it's people's stupidity.


8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ?

... I feel like that shouldn't even be a question. There's no way in hell a ruler should have enough power to kill his subjects. In any type of governing system. The only one's that allow that are called dictatorships.


9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason?

He should be flat out executed if he does.


10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN?

Sure, why not? That's far more peaceful then anything I had in mind.


11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you?

Nope. Freedom of speech baby.


12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------CAN YOU, WILL YOU DARE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS? ANSWERS DO NOT NEED TO BE ESSAYS BUT CLARITY AND HONESTY WILL BE APPRECIATED.--TYR

Yes I am, I believe not in the gov't anymore. I believe in it's people. Even if they are sheep.

[revelarts]

If, and When we ever get a really viable, recognized, electable 3rd party candidate to run for President.

I personally refuse to vote for any party so destined to DESTROY our nation. Not because they are R's, or D's. But because they
work very hard between elections to get elected again...as long as the GULLIBLE, UNEDUCATED Americans from coast to coast fall for Promises that are NEVER kept...since promises are IMPOSSIBLE to keep in this nation.

I refuse to vote for Dems who are intentionally leading us into perpetual dependence on government...all in the PHONY CLAIM of the American Dream????

For as long as I have been alive, and understood what Independence, Success, and Hard Work accomplish.
Only once, have I seen a Democrat who didn't have HIS POLITICAL CAREER on his shoulder.
And Lee Harvey Oswald denied that person the right to make America Whole.

I hear you AT.

But frankly i don't buy this "viable, recognized, electable" stuff, it's self defeating. WHO SAYS what those qualities are? the news and the Rs&Ds?
If everyone (no half) of those who voted for the lesser of 2 evils in the last 3 elections actually voted a 3rd party (ANY 3rd party) the 2 parties would be in crisis mode TODAY.

[Robert A Whit]

Tyr, you know I appreciate your take on lot issues. But here i've got to challenge you on voting for republicans or any evils.
You've mentioned at the beginning of the post that marching to DC and possibly physically drag the crooks out of office might be an option. In other places you mention force of arms as a last resort to tyranny.
Won't you consider voting 3rd party before it come to those harsher terms? Seems a better 1st step than the Hot alternatives don't you think.
WE have evidence that the R's are JUST AS BAD on the issues of main concern in this thread.
why vote for killing only the right American citizens. When you can vote for a party Or even writing in a man that wants to GET back to the constitution? .
we've been going along to get along for FAR to long.

Fight the gov't with a radical votes, radical disengagement from gov't programs, radical self sufficiency, and radical refusal to cooperate with our own demise.
Before a full blown hot revolution. A Hot revolution that will probably end , after the smoke clears, with just the same elites emerging from their bunkers and maneuvering over whats left of the country, claiming to bring order in "transition" back to the Constitution. "if it weren't for those dang -fill in the blank- political enemies who won't cooperate " .
same game new day.

Basically it's a LIE that the "only" choice are the D's or R's. Ask yourself who's telling us that?
Look at history, The country has had Several 3rd party rivals that have change the course of the country. and frankly every radical change came BECAUSE of 3rd parties.
don't buy into the BS Hype from the MSM and the R and D national commitee's. we've still got a multi party option we are not China yet, THEY have only one choice.
Voting for a D or and R mean voting for the 2 sides to the same bad coin. it is only ONE choice. But don't ASSUME you have no other choice .
IS it AGAINST THE LAW to vote 3rd party? Don't act like it is then. take the mental chains off, vote for more than lip service change.
Those R-&-D scum bags don't mean a D@mn thing they say about the constitution.


elections are a contest Reevelarts.

Suppose you tell me what 3rd party you expect can win?

[Larrymc]

Tyr, you know I appreciate your take on lot issues. But here i've got to challenge you on voting for republicans or any evils.
You've mentioned at the beginning of the post that marching to DC and possibly physically drag the crooks out of office might be an option. In other places you mention force of arms as a last resort to tyranny.
Won't you consider voting 3rd party before it come to those harsher terms? Seems a better 1st step than the Hot alternatives don't you think.
WE have evidence that the R's are JUST AS BAD on the issues of main concern in this thread.
why vote for killing only the right American citizens. When you can vote for a party Or even writing in a man that wants to GET back to the constitution? .
we've been going along to get along for FAR to long.

Fight the gov't with a radical votes, radical disengagement from gov't programs, radical self sufficiency, and radical refusal to cooperate with our own demise.
Before a full blown hot revolution. A Hot revolution that will probably end , after the smoke clears, with just the same elites emerging from their bunkers and maneuvering over whats left of the country, claiming to bring order in "transition" back to the Constitution. "if it weren't for those dang -fill in the blank- political enemies who won't cooperate " .
same game new day.

Basically it's a LIE that the "only" choice are the D's or R's. Ask yourself who's telling us that?
Look at history, The country has had Several 3rd party rivals that have change the course of the country. and frankly every radical change came BECAUSE of 3rd parties.
don't buy into the BS Hype from the MSM and the R and D national commitee's. we've still got a multi party option we are not China yet, THEY have only one choice.
Voting for a D or and R mean voting for the 2 sides to the same bad coin. it is only ONE choice. But don't ASSUME you have no other choice .
IS it AGAINST THE LAW to vote 3rd party? Don't act like it is then. take the mental chains off, vote for more than lip service change.
Those R-&-D scum bags don't mean a D@mn thing they say about the constitution.Im one of those who votes for the lesser Evil, I have seen third party candidates that i liked, but honestly never had a chance so a vote for them is tossing it in the wind, I think Romney was what i was looking for Strong Conservative with Biblical and family values, it was stolen from him, but i think had he went third party he would not have got as for as he did, and i don't see anything even close in the pipe line for the next vote. in fact i think after the last vote the conservatives have decided that to win now there going to have kiss up to the deviance and the minorities, I pray we can find one more who won't bow to such things,

[revelarts]

elections are a contest Reevelarts.

Suppose you tell me what 3rd party you expect can win?



realistically this is how i see things could work out IF enough people get pissed enough to do what they know they should.
we didn't get here over night and it may not take 1 election "contest" to make the change. I think you can agree to that.

as i mentioned above if HALF of the people that voted for "the lesser of 2 evils" the last time around had voted for ANY 3rd party that would have meant that what maybe 30% 50% of the nations voting public would have voted for some 3rd party.
But OK the D won anyway.... with 38% of the votes. the R got 32% of the vote.

do see what's happen now? do you see panic in the Rs&Ds eyes.
Do you the rest of the country saying Hey wait a minute maybe this 3rd party thing might work?
At this point 3rd party congressional candidates are eletaed to congress and govenorships. BOTH spots are jump points to the CiC.

it may take 15+ years to turn the ship but at the very least. the Ds & Rs would feel some pressure to Co-op some ACTIONs rather than rhetoric or have to make the hard choice to put the country on lock down and outlaw 3rd parties to keep the monolopy going.

If your looking for a win next election from a 3rd party your dreaming but I"m looking to rock the freaking BOAT. because the Ds and Rs are not listening AT ALL. all of their constitutional talk is PURE window dressing or they tell us OUTRIGHT that they Don't think they need to follow it.
Sorry but I won't vote for some one who will only give me velvet chains not the rusty old ones. and will only kick me with his toe on M -W & F and not his heals everyday.
How the heck is that pragmatic?
"um umm well i'll throw my vote away if i vote for someone who wants me free like the Constitution says"
So you have to VOTE for ONE of those choices? BS!

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=652394#post652394)
elections are a contest Reevelarts.

Suppose you tell me what 3rd party you expect can win?



realistically this is how i see things could work out IF enough people get pissed enough to do what they know they should.
we didn't get here over night and it may not take 1 election "contest" to make the change. I think you can agree to that.

as i mentioned above if HALF of the people that voted for "the lesser of 2 evils" the last time around had voted for ANY 3rd party that would have meant that what maybe 30% 50% of the nations voting public would have voted for some 3rd party.
But OK the D won anyway.... with 38% of the votes. the R got 32% of the vote.

do see what's happen now? do you see panic in the Rs&Ds eyes.
Do you the rest of the country saying Hey wait a minute maybe this 3rd party thing might work?
At this point 3rd party congressional candidates are eletaed to congress and govenorships. BOTH spots are jump points to the CiC.

it may take 15+ years to turn the ship but at the very least. the Ds & Rs would feel some pressure to Co-op some ACTIONs rather than rhetoric or have to make the hard choice to put the country on lock down and outlaw 3rd parties to keep the monolopy going.

If your looking for a win next election from a 3rd party your dreaming but I"m looking to rock the freaking BOAT. because the Ds and Rs are not listening AT ALL. all of their constitutional talk is PURE window dressing or they tell us OUTRIGHT that they Don't think they need to follow it.
Sorry but I won't vote for some one who will only give me velvet chains not the rusty old ones. and will only kick me with his toe on M -W & F and not his heals everyday.
How the heck is that pragmatic?
"um umm well i'll throw my vote away if i vote for someone who wants me free like the Constitution says"
So you have to VOTE for ONE of those choices? BS!

First, I am not persuaded that some third party is the solution. (Me, give me Libertarians)

How can you yank the Obama supporters away from him?

Pick his successor and tell me how you win?

You are very tired of politics as usual. So am I but I believe i understand the political system and tend to wave my hand or yours with the magic wand to see if anyone is listening. Watch how little support you get on this forum. Take that as a survey to see who sides with you.

I really wish there was a way to get where you want to go. But those new politicians will merely do what the present politicians do. It's the system.

[aboutime]

I hear you AT.

But frankly i don't buy this "viable, recognized, electable" stuff, it's self defeating. WHO SAYS what those qualities are? the news and the Rs&Ds?
If everyone (no half) of those who voted for the lesser of 2 evils in the last 3 elections actually voted a 3rd party (ANY 3rd party) the 2 parties would be in crisis mode TODAY.


rev. The ACTUAL reality is. And many are really gonna jump on me for this. But then. The TRUTH always hurts the most. But....

Far too many Present Day American citizens ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH. Not Educated enough about History, Economics, Science, Geography, English, Math, and one...that must be learned by SMART parents, and teachers who aren't putting the Union ahead of the children...namely COMMON SENSE.
America is FAILING. Period. Across the board. The only way to get Americans interested in ANYTHING is..."First. You must tell them WHAT'S IN IT FOR THEM?"
Learning, and Education are just parts of life people hate the most.
That's where we are.
And No Third Party is strong enough to EDUCATE the DUMB Americans.

[revelarts]

First, I am not persuaded that some third party is the solution. (Me, give me Libertarians)

How can you yank the Obama supporters away from him?

Pick his successor and tell me how you win?

You are very tired of politics as usual. So am I but I believe i understand the political system and tend to wave my hand or yours with the magic wand to see if anyone is listening. Watch how little support you get on this forum. Take that as a survey to see who sides with you.

I really wish there was a way to get where you want to go. But those new politicians will merely do what the present politicians do. It's the system.


rev. The ACTUAL reality is. And many are really gonna jump on me for this. But then. The TRUTH always hurts the most. But....

Far too many Present Day American citizens ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH. Not Educated enough about History, Economics, Science, Geography, English, Math, and one...that must be learned by SMART parents, and teachers who aren't putting the Union ahead of the children...namely COMMON SENSE.
America is FAILING. Period. Across the board. The only way to get Americans interested in ANYTHING is..."First. You must tell them WHAT'S IN IT FOR THEM?"
Learning, and Education are just parts of life people hate the most.
That's where we are.
And No Third Party is strong enough to EDUCATE the DUMB Americans.

So it's time to do as Cadet says he's going to do then? Give up and move?
why even be on political board if you think the "the system" and Americans are to far gone to change? just chronicling the demise?

what's the point?

I'm guessing you both think that the Rs and Ds are basically giving us a choice of, a fast boat to Hell East or a slow boat to Hell West.
Why vote for either and pretend like you've done something practical. Danged if you do danged if you don't.

I just don't get people who revere the founders but always talk as if nothing can "really" change.
the revolution was a near miracle, ending slavery was a near miracle. Woman's vote was near miracle, heck... a 5 day work week, the coming and going of prohibition.
change happens if people are willing to do something.

this whole line of thought started with the idea of tyr talking about a load of people MARCHING to D.C.. and pulling the CiC out of office.
how realistic is that?
But people can't fathom a 3rd party just turning the country back toward the constitution.

Seems to me if, in rhetoric, people ready to shoot cops and soldiers to get to the oval office you OUGHT be able to understand that changing your votes away from the people who GOT US HERE is a realistic OPEN and legal way to start moving in the right direction.

I'm open to any other suggestions. but if you going to blather about voting for "better" R's , sorry been there do that, that doesn't work for sure.
If you think the U.S. is a lost cause just say it outright and sit back and watch it burn to the ground.

[aboutime]

So it's time to do as Cadet says he's going to do then? Give up and move?
why even be on political board if you think the "the system" and Americans are to far gone to change? just chronicling the demise?

what's the point?

I'm guessing you both think that the Rs and Ds are basically giving us a choice of, a fast boat to Hell East or a slow boat to Hell West.
Why vote for either and pretend like you've done something practical. Danged if you do danged if you don't.

I just don't get people who revere the founders but always talk as if nothing can "really" change.
the revolution was a near miracle, ending slavery was a near miracle. Woman's vote was near miracle, heck... a 5 day work week, the coming and going of prohibition.
change happens if people are willing to do something.

this whole line of thought started with the idea of tyr talking about a load of people MARCHING to D.C.. and pulling the CiC out of office.
how realistic is that?
But people can't fathom a 3rd party just turning the country back toward the constitution.

Seems to me if, in rhetoric, people ready to shoot cops and soldiers to get to the oval office you OUGHT be able to understand that changing your votes away from the people who GOT US HERE is a realistic OPEN and legal way to start moving in the right direction.

I'm open to any other suggestions. but if you going to blather about voting for "better" R's , sorry been there do that, that doesn't work for sure.
If you think the U.S. is a lost cause just say it outright and sit back and watch it burn to the ground.


rev. Read what I said again. I never said anything about 'giving up' or 'leaving'.
I have too many years invested in this nation to do either of those things.
Whenever I think about how this nation is being destroyed.
I am reminded of the words CHARLTON HESTON said, as president of the NRA.

"From My Cold Dead Hands!" That is how I feel about anyone like Obama, who thinks he can
just take all of what we have away....without a fight.

Unlike Obama. I took an Oath that meant something, and I obeyed it. Still do, as a matter of fact.
When I retired from the Navy in 1995. My Oath Did Not Retire. It is still in effect.

[red state]

Rev, I like what you said and agree for the most part about the possibilities BUT.....we don't have 15 years. As I stated earlier in this thread or another one somewhere, we should have been making this change YEEeAAARRrrrSsss ago. We may not even have two more years the way things are going! IF we don't get a majority or super majority come 2014 (and quite possibly a CONSERVATIVE....not an R) we may still be too late to undo the damage.
Still, if I'm going to hit the dirt....I'm gonna make sure I didn't simply help the D's and R's do it. I'm gonna hurt them as bad as I can and help my Nation in doing the RIGHT thing. That RIGHT person will have to come along and I ain't seen him yet.

Something we failed to mention is that a REAL American hero could come onto the scene by 2014 so that we wouldn't have to plan out a lengthy transition to a 3rd party. Wouldn't it be grand (if) we put a TRUE Conservative Independent in OUR White House with a super majority or Republicans (until we could replace many of them with a full house of independents who have fought for the Constitution (both politically and militarily).

IF this were to ever happen, I hope the first thing they would do it make a change to the qualifications for presidential candidates. That would be that the commander in chief MUST have served "honorably" in our military. I've said this for YEARS (just ask any of my friends). This would have saved us from a slick willie and it would have saved us from the Bad Odor we are currently "surviving" under. Our founders didn't write: "the pursuit of survival" you know.

Hopefully, we will survive what Ben Franklin expected when he thought we'd not have a Republic very long. We've lasted this long and I hope it lasts another 500 years. Good ole Ben knew that if the majority discovered that they could vote themselves "benefits" that this experiment we call our Republic would be over. He was spot on.

[Drummond]

1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President? - Yes.
2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason? - No
3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ? - No
4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation? - No
5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation? - Yes
6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason? - Heavily weighted question, No.
7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration? -Yes.
8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? - No.
8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? - No.
10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN? - No.
11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you? - No.
12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? - No.

MY ANSWERS ....

1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President? - Yes.
2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason? - YES !!!!
3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ? - YES
4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation? - YES
5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation? - Yes
6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason? - ACCURATELY weighted question, YES.
7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration? -Yes.
8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? - No (generally ... I can imagine an exception)
9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason? YES (but see '8')
10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN? - a resounding YES !!
11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you? - No.
12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? - No ... I can't be, as I'm not American. But consider me a British equivalent !

Noir ... I don't understand your 'no' answer at all to '2'. What you must be saying with a 'NO' answer is that Obama is immune to consequences of his treasonable acts ... therefore, above the law, above his reason for being President, and effectively ALLOWED TO SELL AMERICA AND ITS CITIZENS OUT !!

... which is not only obscene but actually ridiculous.

Your 'NO' answer to '3' is offensive in what it implies, Noir. Since when did Obama have the right to completely subvert America from a freedom-loving nation, one made great through individual enterprise, to a clone of other mediocre Socialist nations where the State dictates to its people, crushing their spirit ? By pursuing a Socialist agenda, he turns America's strength and greatness on its head, and embarks on a program of systematic ruination. He goes further than breaking his oath of office, and takes America in a direction so harmful that THIS IN ITSELF BECOMES TREASONOUS.

For '4' ... an example of where you're wrong is one I covered on this site just days ago. He announced to the world the troop pullout out of Afghanistan. What greater gift could he have given the Taliban, short of ordering US troops to surrender to them ??? The Taliban know how long to last out for, to what extent they conserve their forces, for when the pullout happens. THIS SELLS OUT EVERY SERVICEMAN THE TALIBAN HAS KILLED, US AND ALLIED FORCES, AND COMPROMISES FUTURE WESTERN SECURITY !

Q6 ... Obama and his Party cannot be immune to the consequences of treason !!!

Q8 .. I basically agree with a 'NO' answer. However ... Americans who are also terrorists ? Should they be immune from punishment, EVEN from drone action ? I really do wonder. Because if that's still 'YES', then all terrorist organisations need to do is make sure they recruit American citizens to their cause.

I don't believe in giving terrorists advantages ... ever.

Q10 ... covered. Treason must be dealt with, and not tolerated !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Q12 - consider me a British carbon-copy of a patriotic American. One who wants American Conservatism preserved and allowed to flourish.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

MY ANSWERS ....

1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President? - Yes.
2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason? - YES !!!!
3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ? - YES
4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation? - YES
5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation? - Yes
6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason? - ACCURATELY weighted question, YES.
7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration? -Yes.
8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? - No (generally ... I can imagine an exception)
9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason? YES (but see '8')
10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN? - a resounding YES !!
11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you? - No.
12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? - No ... I can't be, as I'm not American. But consider me a British equivalent !

Noir ... I don't understand your 'no' answer at all to '2'. What you must be saying with a 'NO' answer is that Obama is immune to consequences of his treasonable acts ... therefore, above the law, above his reason for being President, and effectively ALLOWED TO SELL AMERICA AND ITS CITIZENS OUT !!

... which is not only obscene but actually ridiculous.

Your 'NO' answer to '3' is offensive in what it implies, Noir. Since when did Obama have the right to completely subvert America from a freedom-loving nation, one made great through individual enterprise, to a clone of other mediocre Socialist nations where the State dictates to its people, crushing their spirit ? By pursuing a Socialist agenda, he turns America's strength and greatness on its head, and embarks on a program of systematic ruination. He goes further than breaking his oath of office, and takes America in a direction so harmful that THIS IN ITSELF BECOMES TREASONOUS.

For '4' ... an example of where you're wrong is one I covered on this site just days ago. He announced to the world the troop pullout out of Afghanistan. What greater gift could he have given the Taliban, short of ordering US troops to surrender to them ??? The Taliban know how long to last out for, to what extent they conserve their forces, for when the pullout happens. THIS SELLS OUT EVERY SERVICEMAN THE TALIBAN HAS KILLED, US AND ALLIED FORCES, AND COMPROMISES FUTURE WESTERN SECURITY !

Q6 ... Obama and his Party cannot be immune to the consequences of treason !!!

Q8 .. I basically agree with a 'NO' answer. However ... Americans who are also terrorists ? Should they be immune from punishment, EVEN from drone action ? I really do wonder. Because if that's still 'YES', then all terrorist organisations need to do is make sure they recruit American citizens to their cause.

I don't believe in giving terrorists advantages ... ever.

Q10 ... covered. Treason must be dealt with, and not tolerated !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Q12 - consider me a British carbon-copy of a patriotic American. One who wants American Conservatism preserved and allowed to flourish. Bravo!! -:beer:. My friend you have far more true American values than most American citizens do! You really should consider relocating to here. Neither Britain or Australia will be fit to live in in less than a decade. The muslims will destroy them both. Here you could join the good fight against them and their damn leftist allies. Think about it because going out in a fight for the most worthy cause is far better than dying a miserable death of old age and bad health IMHO. AT LEAST TO ME IT IS. And then there is always the possibility of living thru it all and seeing victory and a new rebirth of this nation. I can think of nothing better than destroying hundreds/maybe even thousands(?) of vermin , can you? You same as Noir just exhibited great love of freedom of speech. I give Noir credit for that and his posting honest answers to the questions, FJ TOO!!!!!! Both proved there is far more to them than some of us had realized. At least to me they did. Still I 'll not holster my six shooter just yet. ;) Hell , know for a fact that I was meant to have been born and killed during the Wild West era. Never can be sure which side of the law I would have been planted on ..:laugh:--Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Rev, I like what you said and agree for the most part about the possibilities BUT.....we don't have 15 years. As I stated earlier in this thread or another one somewhere, we should have been making this change YEEeAAARRrrrSsss ago. We may not even have two more years the way things are going! IF we don't get a majority or super majority come 2014 (and quite possibly a CONSERVATIVE....not an R) we may still be too late to undo the damage.
Still, if I'm going to hit the dirt....I'm gonna make sure I didn't simply help the D's and R's do it. I'm gonna hurt them as bad as I can and help my Nation in doing the RIGHT thing. That RIGHT person will have to come along and I ain't seen him yet.

Something we failed to mention is that a REAL American hero could come onto the scene by 2014 so that we wouldn't have to plan out a lengthy transition to a 3rd party. Wouldn't it be grand (if) we put a TRUE Conservative Independent in OUR White House with a super majority or Republicans (until we could replace many of them with a full house of independents who have fought for the Constitution (both politically and militarily).

IF this were to ever happen, I hope the first thing they would do it make a change to the qualifications for presidential candidates. That would be that the commander in chief MUST have served "honorably" in our military. I've said this for YEARS (just ask any of my friends). This would have saved us from a slick willie and it would have saved us from the Bad Odor we are currently "surviving" under. Our founders didn't write: "the pursuit of survival" you know.

Hopefully, we will survive what Ben Franklin expected when he thought we'd not have a Republic very long. We've lasted this long and I hope it lasts another 500 years. Good ole Ben knew that if the majority discovered that they could vote themselves "benefits" that this experiment we call our Republic would be over. He was spot on. We are lucky if we have 6 years before the "fit hits the shan" is my guess. It all depends on what happens in the 2014 elections. If bamscum gets control of Congress again likely it all go to hell before his term ends. True Americans had better prepare for that IMHO. WHY DO YOU THINK THE FEDS HAVE BOUGHT ENOUGH AMMO TO KILL EVERY AMERICAN CITIZEN A DOZEN TIMES OVER?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Yes, anyone who knows our history knows that that was one of the things the founding fathers absolutely agreed with.



I hate to agree that a president should be impeached. He should step down so that we don't end up getting into the habit of impeachment. Even Nixon had the compassion to make sure we didn't get into that habit, and he didn't do anything NEAR as bad as Obama.



Yes, he swore to uphold the constitution and is breaking that swear. A man is only as good as his word.



Not sure, I just think he's stupid enough to not realize that he is. Ie) the rebels that we're aiding, that just happen to be a part of Al quieda



Not deliberately, I think he's just a stupid racist who doesn't know how to run a country.



Obama, yes. Dem, no. Not all dems are stupid morons. And I do agree with some of their things. But disagree with a lot. Most dems are just misguided.



Yeah, this country's population is oblivious. There are plenty of videos in other threads pointing out it's people's stupidity.



... I feel like that shouldn't even be a question. There's no way in hell a ruler should have enough power to kill his subjects. In any type of governing system. The only one's that allow that are called dictatorships.



He should be flat out executed if he does.



Sure, why not? That's far more peaceful then anything I had in mind.



Nope. Freedom of speech baby.



Yes I am, I believe not in the gov't anymore. I believe in it's people. Even if they are sheep. Bravo!!!! -:beer: :salute: Damn well said my friend!!! Just reading it from you gives me greater hope in our younger Americans. Damn sure hope there are more like you out there. I guess it all depends on what kind of parents people such as you have had . Kudos to yours for doing a damn fine job...-- :clap:-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Tyr, you know I appreciate your take on lot issues. But here i've got to challenge you on voting for republicans or any evils.
You've mentioned at the beginning of the post that marching to DC and possibly physically drag the crooks out of office might be an option. In other places you mention force of arms as a last resort to tyranny.
Won't you consider voting 3rd party before it come to those harsher terms? Seems a better 1st step than the Hot alternatives don't you think.
WE have evidence that the R's are JUST AS BAD on the issues of main concern in this thread.
why vote for killing only the right American citizens. When you can vote for a party Or even writing in a man that wants to GET back to the constitution? .
we've been going along to get along for FAR to long.

Fight the gov't with a radical votes, radical disengagement from gov't programs, radical self sufficiency, and radical refusal to cooperate with our own demise.
Before a full blown hot revolution. A Hot revolution that will probably end , after the smoke clears, with just the same elites emerging from their bunkers and maneuvering over whats left of the country, claiming to bring order in "transition" back to the Constitution. "if it weren't for those dang -fill in the blank- political enemies who won't cooperate " .
same game new day.

Basically it's a LIE that the "only" choice are the D's or R's. Ask yourself who's telling us that?
Look at history, The country has had Several 3rd party rivals that have change the course of the country. and frankly every radical change came BECAUSE of 3rd parties.
don't buy into the BS Hype from the MSM and the R and D national commitee's. we've still got a multi party option we are not China yet, THEY have only one choice.
Voting for a D or and R mean voting for the 2 sides to the same bad coin. it is only ONE choice. But don't ASSUME you have no other choice .
IS it AGAINST THE LAW to vote 3rd party? Don't act like it is then. take the mental chains off, vote for more than lip service change.
Those R-&-D scum bags don't mean a D@mn thing they say about the constitution. Rev don't think THAT I do not see the problems in the Republican party because trust me I do. Last election Obama won because too many either stayed home and didn't bother to vote or they voted but left the presidential vote blank. All those non-votes went directly for Obama. When the choice is of only the lesser of two evils and one refuses to vote for the lesser evil the benefit goes directly to the greater evil. Don't ask me why but that's true. Could be because evil must be opposed or else it grows. Sorry, just do not see third party ever being strong enough to stop what has a 40+ year head start. All it would do is hasten the demise of the lesser evil first and that would only grow the power of the greater evil. And that greater evil would never let the third party get strong enough to really challenge it before it attacked and destroyed both the weaker parties. Which is what they are planning for now. Don't play into their hands.. They will force a revolution when they are ready. The government will force it not the patriots. -Tyr

[tailfins]

12 questions about the current state of this nation and its current government.. 1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President? 2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason? 3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ? 4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation? 5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation? 6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason? 7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration? 8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? 9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason? 10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN? 11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you? 12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------CAN YOU, WILL YOU DARE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS? ANSWERS DO NOT NEED TO BE ESSAYS BUT CLARITY AND HONESTY WILL BE APPRECIATED.--TYR

13. Can you send us $50, $100, $250 or more?

You post sounds like a fundraising script.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

13. Can you send us $50, $100, $250 or more?

You post sounds like a fundraising script. Ok, how much can you send? Best charity that I know and TRUST is ME!!! ;) All donations are appreciated and none are tax deductible. $250 THESE DAYS IS CHICKEN FEED HOSS. MAKE IT $500 AND SEND ME A PM , I'LL GIVE YOU MY ADDRESS, CASH PLEASE. I DONT TRUST CHECKS OR ANY OTHER FORM OF EXCHANGE. GOD BLESS YA BROTHER FOR YOUR KIND AND GENEROUS DONATION, if needed call BR-549 and junior will take a message for me. :laugh:

[fj1200]

do see what's happen now? do you see panic in the Rs&Ds eyes.
Do you the rest of the country saying Hey wait a minute maybe this 3rd party thing might work?
At this point 3rd party congressional candidates are eletaed to congress and govenorships. BOTH spots are jump points to the CiC.

it may take 15+ years to turn the ship but at the very least. the Ds & Rs would feel some pressure to Co-op some ACTIONs rather than rhetoric or have to make the hard choice to put the country on lock down and outlaw 3rd parties to keep the monolopy going.

I don't think that gives you lasting change, you would have some coopting of positions but the system would revert because that is how the system is set up to work. I think the better idea is to require a 50% +1 plurality to win any Federal election, including electors, Congressman, etc. and if that isn't achieved then an automatic run off happens. That way your vote wouldn't be wasted, you would just have the second option voting for the top two.

Oh, and repeal the 17th by requiring State appointment for Senators.

[jimnyc]

1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President? Absolutely 100% without a doubt
2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason? Impeached for Benghazi lies, Fast and Furious lies and a couple other scandals. I don't think he has been treasonous - yet.
3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ? Borderline. I think America should come first, not their agenda. But honestly, what president doesn't follow their parties agenda?
4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation? Yes, he would like to squash opposition if he could and make the country built on his own beliefs
5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation? In my opinion, absolutely
6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason? I think it's our duty to seek change, but I don't think Obama/Dems have been treasonous - yet.
7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration? The majority, yes. People are stupid enough to let their emotions dictate things instead of common sense.
8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? On American soil? Hell no.
9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason? Yes, and if he ever did that, he then would be committing treason, IMO.
10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN? It is our right to do so of course, but I don't know about duty.
11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you? The "watchers" in government can kiss my ass, they don't scare me in the least and I'll NEVER stop speaking my mind 100% the way I think it.
12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? Everyone here knows me! Sometimes I am accused of being TOO much for the rule of law. But without it, we decay as a society.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

1. Are we duty bound to correct a dictatorial President? Absolutely 100% without a doubt
2. Should Obama be impeached and tried for his treason? Impeached for Benghazi lies, Fast and Furious lies and a couple other scandals. I don't think he has been treasonous - yet.
3. Is Obama breaking his sworn oath of office by pursuing his socialist agenda ? Borderline. I think America should come first, not their agenda. But honestly, what president doesn't follow their parties agenda?
4. Is Obama deliberately aiding the enemies of this great nation? Yes, he would like to squash opposition if he could and make the country built on his own beliefs
5. Is Obama deliberately dividing this nation? In my opinion, absolutely
6. Is it our duty as citizens to stop Obama and the Dem party's treason? I think it's our duty to seek change, but I don't think Obama/Dems have been treasonous - yet.
7. Are most Americans completely unaware of the deliberate degradation of their rights by Obama and his administration? The majority, yes. People are stupid enough to let their emotions dictate things instead of common sense.
8. Does Obama have the right to drone strike American citizens here in this nation ? On American soil? Hell no.
9. If Obama drone strikes here within the borders of this nation an American citizen has he committed an act of murder and treason? Yes, and if he ever did that, he then would be committing treason, IMO.
10. Is it not only our right but also our duty to march on Washington D.C. TO DEMAND THAT THE DAMN TRAITOR STEP DOWN? It is our right to do so of course, but I don't know about duty.
11. Are you afraid to answer these questions because you know some lowlife federal government paid piece of scum is recording this for future use against you? The "watchers" in government can kiss my ass, they don't scare me in the least and I'll NEVER stop speaking my mind 100% the way I think it.
12. Are you a patriotic and honorable American citizen that believes in the Rule of Law? Everyone here knows me! Sometimes I am accused of being TOO much for the rule of law. But without it, we decay as a society. Another good reply. Bravo.--:beer:. Appears many members here know something is terribly wrong with Obama and what he is doing . -Tyr

[aboutime]

tailfins. I have a great way to make you, and many other members really, really happy.

I tried it on another forum, but there were no takers.

Per your post about Fund Raising previously.

I PROMISE, I will happily leave this forum FOREVER if...YOU, or any other member signs an agreement, notarized legally. That promises to pay all of my bills, my mortgage, and all medical bills until the day I Kick the Bucket!

Anyone out there have enough funding, before Obama taxes you, and demands that you SHARE everything with others, to do that???

[cadet]

Another good reply. Bravo.--:beer:. Appears many members here know something is terribly wrong with Obama and what he is doing . -Tyr

I think you're just proving a point that we don't have enough liberals and morons to yell at on this site :laugh:

[Drummond]

Bravo!! -:beer:. My friend you have far more true American values than most American citizens do! You really should consider relocating to here. Neither Britain or Australia will be fit to live in in less than a decade. The muslims will destroy them both. Here you could join the good fight against them and their damn leftist allies. Think about it because going out in a fight for the most worthy cause is far better than dying a miserable death of old age and bad health IMHO. AT LEAST TO ME IT IS. And then there is always the possibility of living thru it all and seeing victory and a new rebirth of this nation. I can think of nothing better than destroying hundreds/maybe even thousands(?) of vermin , can you? You same as Noir just exhibited great love of freedom of speech. I give Noir credit for that and his posting honest answers to the questions, FJ TOO!!!!!! Both proved there is far more to them than some of us had realized. At least to me they did. Still I 'll not holster my six shooter just yet. ;) Hell , know for a fact that I was meant to have been born and killed during the Wild West era. Never can be sure which side of the law I would have been planted on ..:laugh:--Tyr:clap::clap::clap::clap::beer:

Wow - all of your comments are much appreciated, Tyr ... and yes, if one thing is going to 'do' for both the UK and Australia, it's the now deeply-ingrained requirement that political correctness must forever win through. Thanks to that, Muslims have it made !! They can always hope to expect a non-stop drive to greater and greater deference to them.

If there's hope for America, Tyr, it resides in those individuals, such as yourself, who'll say and do what it TAKES, regardless of anyone's wish to get you to defer in the name of such 'correctness'. For as long as the indomitable spirit of freedom burns fiercely in people, such enslavements cannot take hold.

Yes, it is this that will save you, if anything can.

[Drummond]

I think you're just proving a point that we don't have enough liberals and morons to yell at on this site :laugh:

Well, if they're too afraid to join, that's their business .... :laugh::laugh:

[Drummond]

So it's time to do as Cadet says he's going to do then? Give up and move?
why even be on political board if you think the "the system" and Americans are to far gone to change? just chronicling the demise?

what's the point?

I'm guessing you both think that the Rs and Ds are basically giving us a choice of, a fast boat to Hell East or a slow boat to Hell West.
Why vote for either and pretend like you've done something practical. Danged if you do danged if you don't.

I just don't get people who revere the founders but always talk as if nothing can "really" change.
the revolution was a near miracle, ending slavery was a near miracle. Woman's vote was near miracle, heck... a 5 day work week, the coming and going of prohibition.
change happens if people are willing to do something.

this whole line of thought started with the idea of tyr talking about a load of people MARCHING to D.C.. and pulling the CiC out of office.
how realistic is that?
But people can't fathom a 3rd party just turning the country back toward the constitution.

Seems to me if, in rhetoric, people ready to shoot cops and soldiers to get to the oval office you OUGHT be able to understand that changing your votes away from the people who GOT US HERE is a realistic OPEN and legal way to start moving in the right direction.

I'm open to any other suggestions. but if you going to blather about voting for "better" R's , sorry been there do that, that doesn't work for sure.
If you think the U.S. is a lost cause just say it outright and sit back and watch it burn to the ground.

All of this stuff comes across as being principled. And it may very well be.

But, shall we be realistic ?

YES, I for one believe that the Republicans need a good shaking up, so that in future they're solidly behind, and fully representative of, hardline and uncompromising Conservative values ... enough so that there could be no possibility of any candidate of theirs backsliding for the sake of perceived populism, to attract interest from Left-leaning types.

With such an unyielding platform, I'm sure they'd attract more 'silent' decent Conservatives and gain support.

HOWEVER ... UNTIL THAT HAPPENS ... certain realities exist. Start seeing the Republican vote fracture, so that third Parties pick up their votes, and all that does is split the anti-Dem opposition so as to make it ineffective. Result .. not only a STRONGER DEM WIN .. but the newly-elected Dem President claiming that his mandate from 'The People' to lead America to Socialism is an unassailably proven one.

So let's not kid ourselves. The Left WANT THAT FRACTURED VOTING TO TAKE PLACE, AS ONLY THEY WILL REALLY GAIN FROM IT.

... Isn't that so, Revelarts ??

[aboutime]

All of this stuff comes across as being principled. And it may very well be.

But, shall we be realistic ?

YES, I for one believe that the Republicans need a good shaking up, so that in future they're solidly behind, and fully representative of, hardline and uncompromising Conservative values ... enough so that there could be no possibility of any candidate of theirs backsliding for the sake of perceived populism, to attract interest from Left-leaning types.

With such an unyielding platform, I'm sure they'd attract more 'silent' decent Conservatives and gain support.

HOWEVER ... UNTIL THAT HAPPENS ... certain realities exist. Start seeing the Republican vote fracture, so that third Parties pick up their votes, and all that does is split the anti-Dem opposition so as to make it ineffective. Result .. not only a STRONGER DEM WIN .. but the newly-elected Dem President claiming that his mandate from 'The People' to lead America to Socialism is an unassailably proven one.

So let's not kid ourselves. The Left WANT THAT FRACTURED VOTING TO TAKE PLACE, AS ONLY THEY WILL REALLY GAIN FROM IT.

... Isn't that so, Revelarts ??


Sir Drummond. Thank you for being that VOICE who has no stake in Our Political Game, here in the Colonies.:rolleyes:

So many years, months, weeks, days, and hours of trying to convey all that you so properly stated above.
Anyone who denies we are a growing, divided nation. Simply refuses to recognize that reality...as plain as the SELFISH nose's on their faces.
And sadly. The one, undeniable, underlying FACT that re-enforces such selfishness, tied with hatred, and downright stupidity is...LACK OF EDUCATION. Or, at least a Proper, Qualified, substantial education; not controlled by a few ELITE, liberally centered, Union loving officials who pretend to care for children..but actually place THEIR POCKETBOOK contents ahead of children.
I could go on for hours. But. I trust. You know exactly what I mean.

[Drummond]

Sir Drummond. Thank you for being that VOICE who has no stake in Our Political Game, here in the Colonies.:rolleyes:

So many years, months, weeks, days, and hours of trying to convey all that you so properly stated above.
Anyone who denies we are a growing, divided nation. Simply refuses to recognize that reality...as plain as the SELFISH nose's on their faces.
And sadly. The one, undeniable, underlying FACT that re-enforces such selfishness, tied with hatred, and downright stupidity is...LACK OF EDUCATION. Or, at least a Proper, Qualified, substantial education; not controlled by a few ELITE, liberally centered, Union loving officials who pretend to care for children..but actually place THEIR POCKETBOOK contents ahead of children.
I could go on for hours. But. I trust. You know exactly what I mean.

All well said, Aboutime. I would also agree that Left-wing control of the processes, and content, of the education which your youth get is a very major issue requiring correction.

Can I chiefly answer, though, by giving my view on the 'US Political Game'. You say I've no stake in it -- I'd say in reply that I may have no DIRECT stake in it, but I think an INdirect stake exists.

Why that is, will be obvious to anyone outside of the US. I argue that you're the most influential 'political game' this world of ours knows. What America does, what governs its destiny, has an impact on all of us. It can't be otherwise, because of your power, your connections to all spheres of influence worth anything.

And consider this. The Left, over here, always have a special interest in criticising the US. Rather less since Obama won power, of course, but when Bush was there, they fell over themselves to find any excuse they possibly could to attack.

You see, the Left will always claim that they have the superior system. But they can't explain away the fact of America as the undeniable success story it is, and that all built up from a philosophy fundamentally opposed to all that they are.

The danger of Obama successfully crippling your country's worth in the world by forcing it to convert to Socialist systems is one where the reverberations will be felt everywhere. Have the Left get the world to look at you as a Socialist country, and relatively powerful WHEN SOCIALIST, reverses the spectre of the standing you enjoy as a NON Socialist success story.

Though the effect would be worst for you .. we will ALL suffer if the US falls prey to Leftie ruination. So yes, I'd say I do have a stake in this ... and as someone WHO WANTS SOCIALISM TO DIE A DEATH EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

[aboutime]

All well said, Aboutime. I would also agree that Left-wing control of the processes, and content, of the education which your youth get is a very major issue requiring correction.

Can I chiefly answer, though, by giving my view on the 'US Political Game'. You say I've no stake in it -- I'd say in reply that I may have no DIRECT stake in it, but I think an INdirect stake exists.

Why that is, will be obvious to anyone outside of the US. I argue that you're the most influential 'political game' this world of ours knows. What America does, what governs its destiny, has an impact on all of us. It can't be otherwise, because of your power, your connections to all spheres of influence worth anything.

And consider this. The Left, over here, always have a special interest in criticising the US. Rather less since Obama won power, of course, but when Bush was there, they fell over themselves to find any excuse they possibly could to attack.

You see, the Left will always claim that they have the superior system. But they can't explain away the fact of America as the undeniable success story it is, and that all built up from a philosophy fundamentally opposed to all that they are.

The danger of Obama successfully crippling your country's worth in the world by forcing it to convert to Socialist systems is one where the reverberations will be felt everywhere. Have the Left get the world to look at you as a Socialist country, and relatively powerful WHEN SOCIALIST, reverses the spectre of the standing you enjoy as a NON Socialist success story.

Though the effect would be worst for you .. we will ALL suffer if the US falls prey to Leftie ruination. So yes, I'd say I do have a stake in this ... and as someone WHO WANTS SOCIALISM TO DIE A DEATH EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD.


Thank you. Perhaps I should have been more concise with my wording, and said. Because you have a view of what we are doing here that none of us are privy to. You can recognize our problems much more than we can.
I also believe, far too many Americans are so poorly informed, or educated. They have no idea, or concept of how much the rest of the World...other than those who hate us so much; actually see us.
It is also a sign. Based on our poor educational records for our children. How the respect WE once had around the World, has almost intentionally been destroyed...by Obama, Democrats, and Americans who hate anyone that makes them look so ignorant, and plain old stupid. So. Their only defense seems to be. SUPPORT OUR ENEMIES, rather than be labeled as the Racist idiots they really have become.
Sir Drummond. It's gonna be a long, hard, dirty road we all need to travel to get the USA I gave my life to defend, back to anywhere close to what it was before ILLITERACY became the rule, rather than the Exception.
Therefore. I would Proudly, and Happily call you a Fellow Countryman.

[Drummond]

Thank you. Perhaps I should have been more concise with my wording, and said. Because you have a view of what we are doing here that none of us are privy to. You can recognize our problems much more than we can.
I also believe, far too many Americans are so poorly informed, or educated. They have no idea, or concept of how much the rest of the World...other than those who hate us so much; actually see us.
It is also a sign. Based on our poor educational records for our children. How the respect WE once had around the World, has almost intentionally been destroyed...by Obama, Democrats, and Americans who hate anyone that makes them look so ignorant, and plain old stupid. So. Their only defense seems to be. SUPPORT OUR ENEMIES, rather than be labeled as the Racist idiots they really have become.
Sir Drummond. It's gonna be a long, hard, dirty road we all need to travel to get the USA I gave my life to defend, back to anywhere close to what it was before ILLITERACY became the rule, rather than the Exception.
Therefore. I would Proudly, and Happily call you a Fellow Countryman.:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Thanks for this post, and most especially your final sentence ... which I greatly appreciate.

[revelarts]

All of this stuff comes across as being principled. And it may very well be.

But, shall we be realistic ?

YES, I for one believe that the Republicans need a good shaking up, so that in future they're solidly behind, and fully representative of, hardline and uncompromising Conservative values ... enough so that there could be no possibility of any candidate of theirs backsliding for the sake of perceived populism, to attract interest from Left-leaning types.

With such an unyielding platform, I'm sure they'd attract more 'silent' decent Conservatives and gain support.

HOWEVER ... UNTIL THAT HAPPENS ... certain realities exist. Start seeing the Republican vote fracture, so that third Parties pick up their votes, and all that does is split the anti-Dem opposition so as to make it ineffective. Result .. not only a STRONGER DEM WIN .. but the newly-elected Dem President claiming that his mandate from 'The People' to lead America to Socialism is an unassailably proven one.

So let's not kid ourselves. The Left WANT THAT FRACTURED VOTING TO TAKE PLACE, AS ONLY THEY WILL REALLY GAIN FROM IT.

... Isn't that so, Revelarts ??

They may gain in form but not in substance.

As you say
shall we be realistic ?

Voting for republicans for the pass 25 years has only brought us closer to the Socialist/Fascist nightmare land you and i both shun.
A slow back road or the highway to big gov't socialism what's the difference, realistically?
Please name any 2 thing that would have moved the country back toward the constitution and less gov't that Romney was ready to do?
Even Obama care he was only going to tweak. IT WAS HIS PLAN FROM MASSACHUSETTS.
is that realistic enough for you?

the ONLY thing Romney Might have done is not Support the homosexual marriage thing or Abortion which he'd have very little influence on ANYWAY.
If we are being realistic.

He was not going to change anything concerning the NSA surveillance we all are now aware of,
or change anything about killing Americans, or jail any Wall st crooks.
Was he going to close or shrink any departments, or agencies? reduce gov't in anyway?
Reduce gov't encroachment on our rights or property any realistic fashion?
Obama didn't even close Gitmo so no change there.
What realistically was he going to do differently other than put a republican label on the same basic big gov't machine?

MY realism tries to sees the Politicians for what they DO not just the labels they put on and the rhetoric they spew.
Quoting Jefferson or quoting Marx before my phone is tapped make little practical difference it seems to me Drummond.



We on the right claim we believe in capitalism, free markets, market forces etc. but we allow a monopoly of 2 parties to dictate the market. By fraud and force of law.
we SAY competition is good. IMO realistically, the 2 parties need some competition.
We are the market force. If they see customers leaving, they may wise up... or not.
but i see no reason to continue to buy their poison, mis-advertised products.
Coke or Pepsi is not a realistic choice.

[Robert A Whit]

So it's time to do as Cadet says he's going to do then? Give up and move?
why even be on political board if you think the "the system" and Americans are to far gone to change? just chronicling the demise?

what's the point?

I'm guessing you both think that the Rs and Ds are basically giving us a choice of, a fast boat to Hell East or a slow boat to Hell West.
Why vote for either and pretend like you've done something practical. Danged if you do danged if you don't.

I just don't get people who revere the founders but always talk as if nothing can "really" change.
the revolution was a near miracle, ending slavery was a near miracle. Woman's vote was near miracle, heck... a 5 day work week, the coming and going of prohibition.
change happens if people are willing to do something.

this whole line of thought started with the idea of tyr talking about a load of people MARCHING to D.C.. and pulling the CiC out of office.
how realistic is that?
But people can't fathom a 3rd party just turning the country back toward the constitution.

Seems to me if, in rhetoric, people ready to shoot cops and soldiers to get to the oval office you OUGHT be able to understand that changing your votes away from the people who GOT US HERE is a realistic OPEN and legal way to start moving in the right direction.

I'm open to any other suggestions. but if you going to blather about voting for "better" R's , sorry been there do that, that doesn't work for sure.
If you think the U.S. is a lost cause just say it outright and sit back and watch it burn to the ground.

The republicans are the next best thing to Libertarians and the Ds are pro socialist.

With many years posting, there is no evidence minds are malleable enough to change. Call me practical or a realist, long ago I lost hope forums were a way to change minds.

You can prove me wrong by agreeing with me of course.

[revelarts]

The republicans are the next best thing to Libertarians and the Ds are pro socialist.

With many years posting, there is no evidence minds are malleable enough to change. Call me practical or a realist, long ago I lost hope forums were a way to change minds.

You can prove me wrong by agreeing with me of course.

Drummond asked for realism i gave a specific case.
Obama V Romney.
you SAY Republicans are better than Democrat.

where's the beef?


It should be simple Conservative = republican , republican = Romney
but somewhere the math gets jacked up.

Romney is not a Conservative "politician" He may be a Businessman. But what does his Polictical Record and Even Political plans tell you?

Saying Republicans are Conservative Means NOTHING when the men/women who are elected VOTE for bigger Gov't., more Gov't control and less Constitution. year after year after year.

maybe many older conservatives can't fathom the idea. The Label means conservative even if they DO the opposite. I voted that way for years making excuses for them. Sorry no more.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Drummond asked for realism i gave a specific case.
Obama V Romney.
you SAY Republicans are better than Democrat.

where's the beef?


It should be simple Conservative = republican , republican = Romney
but somewhere the math gets jacked up.

Romney is not a Conservative "politician" He may be a Businessman. But what does his Polictical Record and Even Political plans tell you?

Saying Republicans are Conservative Means NOTHING when the men/women who are elected VOTE for bigger Gov't., more Gov't control and less Constitution. year after year after year.

maybe many older conservatives can't fathom the idea. The Label means conservative even if they DO the opposite. I voted that way for years making excuses for them. Sorry no more.
Rev, no third party is going to save us. It just doesn't work to try to split the Republican party that way. Both weak parties from the split will be destroyed by the Dem party. To be frank about it, I am amazed that you fail to see just how damn ruthless the dem/socialist party truly is. Obama and his ruthless corruption is just the acorn, the mighty oak tree is to come!-Tyr

[revelarts]

Rev, no third party is going to save us. It just doesn't work to try to split the Republican party that way. Both weak parties from the split will be destroyed by the Dem party. To be frank about it, I am amazed that you fail to see just how damn ruthless the dem/socialist party truly is. Obama and his ruthless corruption is just the acorn, the mighty oak tree is to come!-Tyr

Tyr if the Republican Party is really the Democratic Party Light , with a side of morals.
What are we preserving?
That's the question I keep asking and NO ONE here dares to answer.

You say a 3rd party won't save us , well the republican party has said for the last 30 years that it was going to "save us" and ever year the gov'ts gotten bigger, the special interest stronger, our rights dismissed more summarily.

It looks like to me that dog won't hunt Tyr.

I don't know why people don't see that the Republican party is just pandering to the conversative base and not delivering anything but rhetoric and scraps. how damn ruthless is that Tyr?

[Larrymc]

Rev, no third party is going to save us. It just doesn't work to try to split the Republican party that way. Both weak parties from the split will be destroyed by the Dem party. To be frank about it, I am amazed that you fail to see just how damn ruthless the dem/socialist party truly is. Obama and his ruthless corruption is just the acorn, the mighty oak tree is to come!-TyrI try to follow my R. Representatives and several conservative web sites, that offer preformed faxes on issues that you can sign and send or write your on and phone numbers to your representatives, i try to take action on issues one way or the other as much as i can just to let them know im watching how they are voting, Problem is im the only one in my circle of friends and family who dose this, they say its a waste of time, while its true that my faxes and phone calls probably just go's in a pile, no one knows are cares who i am, the point is, It is counted as a yay or nay on the issue and it tells them that there is one more watching what you are doing. This is the revolution we need, Let them know even after your elected we are watching you.

[red state]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/image.php?u=2275&dateline=1344800665 TYR

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=652456#post652456)
Bravo!! -:beer:. My friend you have far more true American values than most American citizens do! You really should consider relocating to here. Neither Britain or Australia will be fit to live in in less than a decade. The muslims will destroy them both. Here you could join the good fight against them and their damn leftist allies. Think about it because going out in a fight for the most worthy cause is far better than dying a miserable death of old age and bad health IMHO. AT LEAST TO ME IT IS. And then there is always the possibility of living thru it all and seeing victory and a new rebirth of this nation. I can think of nothing better than destroying hundreds/maybe even thousands(?) of vermin , can you? You same as Noir just exhibited great love of freedom of speech. I give Noir credit for that and his posting honest answers to the questions, FJ TOO!!!!!! Both proved there is far more to them than some of us had realized. At least to me they did. Still I 'll not holster my six shooter just yet. ;) Hell , know for a fact that I was meant to have been born and killed during the Wild West era. Never can be sure which side of the law I would have been planted on ..:laugh:--Tyr


__________________________________________________ _________




http://www.debatepolicy.com/image.php?u=2287&dateline=1340394532 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?2287-Drummond)


:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Drummond Wrote: Thanks for this post, and most especially your final sentence ... which I greatly appreciate.



__________________________________________________ _____________________________




http://www.debatepolicy.com/image.php?u=2280&dateline=1343797919&type=thumb RED STATE

Drummond, without labeling you as an old fart like Tyr and About Time, I'd like to remind folks your age that YOUR age group (and mine) are a dying breed. Those born during and after the Slick Willie years do not know the greatness of American and the combined efforts of the FREE world. Through indoctrination of our public school system and the lame stream media, the masses have been left brain damaged....if not DEAD.


We have very few WWII vets left and those my age or older will soon follow....at least our ability to effectively FIGHT will soon follow those GREAT men who fought and defeated tyranny. The young, tough, able bodied kids of today are worried more with XBox, a good time and (God help us) their primping time. Our essence is becoming that of B.O.'s image....lying, cheating, prideful vanity, slothfulness and morality. I see VERY few within the YOUNG ranks who would or could do as those GREAT Americans who came before them. We can't rely on the integrity of those serving in the military because less than 1% are TRUE, Constitutionally knowledgeable or loyal patriots. In fact, I'd say true patriots are out numbered greatly with many in it merely for the pay (because of poor decisions or guidance during younger years) or because they have a liberal agend in helping B.O. fundamentally change ALL that has made America great. Then, there is always those who are our sleepers for other countries/cults. I truly believe we would be shocked to know all that is eroding our military and society.


Tyr, as for our supporting Republicans....the only solution is for us to become more involved. This includes submitting/supporting more quality individuals who are TRUE AMERICANs. We must also consider running for office ourselves. I believe we need more "joe plumbers" and Palins and less McCains, Romneys and Rubios. I was extremely disappointed in Palin after some of her decisions (both during and after the McCain embarrassment) but she is a perfect example of the "little people" simply getting involved and KEEPING the support from those who placed her from mayor to gov. to possibly VP (had McCain not been such a FAKE). The Republican Party is practically non-existence....WE need to make it REPUBLICAN again but I'm still not abandoning the possibility of a third party. Who knows, the current treatment of Hispanics after the Martin/Zimmerman case could possibly wake the Hispanic vote to where they realize who truly believe in TRUTH, JUSTICE and the AMERICAN way (Conservatives).


We can go down fighting but I fear that the fight (both politically and otherwise) should have happened YEARS ago....while many who LOVE and know true freedom were young.

[aboutime]

Tyr if the Republican Party is really the Democratic Party Light , with a side of morals.
What are we preserving?
That's the question I keep asking and NO ONE here dares to answer.

You say a 3rd party won't save us , well the republican party has said for the last 30 years that it was going to "save us" and ever year the gov'ts gotten bigger, the special interest stronger, our rights dismissed more summarily.

It looks like to me that dog won't hunt Tyr.

I don't know why people don't see that the Republican party is just pandering to the conversative base and not delivering anything but rhetoric and scraps. how damn ruthless is that Tyr?


rev. When you speak so negatively about Republicans, you say has been saying for 30 years.
I find it very disingenuous of you to intentionally NOT mention, and ignore how the Democrats have promised
that LBJ promise to America of that GREAT SOCIETY. Which has still. never taken place because Democrats
depend on, and only get re-elected by the Americans who are still waiting...while their opportunities to become
more Knowledgeable, and More Educated...have been blocked in order to maintain the DUMBED-DOWN status that
got us TWO OBAMA TERMS.

[red state]

I'm as disgusted and disappointed in the Republicans as much as REV and as much as all of us should be. After 2010, I thought we may be on the rebound but with the same old same ole within OUR party, I have been driven to extreme ideas as to how to punish the traitorous frauds or to infiltrate the fakes of the Dims and Republicans. The socialists have not taken over our Nation by waving anti-American flags and posters....they gained control by way of sleeper cells within both parties and there is no patriotism in neither side. This is evident in their being so quick to defile the Constitution for which they have broken their pledge. What is disturbing to me is how a Socialistic/Islamist/occupier LIAR has OPENLY laid claim OUR White House. B.O. did not wave American Flags or assure the public that he loved America and what made America great as did others before him. He OPENLY told the ignorant masses who follow him that America much pay for OUR crimes, must become one with the world with equality and servitude, must relinquish our "WEALTH and prosperity" where our health, utilities and taxes must "significantly skyrocket". With all this and the stupidity that constantly comes from his ignorant mouth, we've not only allowed him to destroy America for four years but we've bowed to further destruction by electing B.O. to fo mo.

Having said all of this, I'm wondering if WE should infiltrate them and pave the way for one who will/can deceive the stupidity of the left and Rhinos. Has anyone ever known of a true Conservative to be anything other than a conservative judging by his record over years of conservative legislation on the local or State level? Could not such a one or group of such quality folks decide to, over night. switch parties and run as a dimocrat or rhino only to do as B.O. has failed to do and uphold the Constitution on ALL levels? Yes....this is KraZy Town but what we've been doing is NOT working so I look forward to hearing from Tyr on how we are supposed to fight a Republican Party that seems to be hell bent on stabbing Constitutionalists in the back. Look at the success of Rubio as opposed to what they've done to Allen West. We are not changing the Party....they are changing us and I dare say that we have a one party system with only a few such as Allen West who still fight for WE THE PEOPLE.

Rev, so I know where you are coming from....who would have been your presidential pick for 2008, 12 & the coming election of 2016? Mine would have been and still is Allen West but I believe you and I differ in that area but I can't imagine why and I suspect that this difference among you, Tyr and ME is part of our weakness. Tyr, I put the same question to you on whom you would have and WOULD pick from 08 - 16.

[red state]

OK....lunch time is over. See you guys later on in the funny papers.

[Gaffer]

I like Allen West too. He's one of the few conservatives out there and he's not afraid to speak his mind or tell the truth about things. He would get my vote immediately.

A third party would turn this country into a democracy instead of a republic. That's what the liberals want. Then they get to have majority rule and mob rule with themselves always on top. It's all about the rich elites, that I call the new nobility. And they have no loyalty to party or country. Just their status. Who gets a barony, who gets a dukedom, who gets to be king next. They won't be replaced by a third party, they will just solidify their positions.

[Drummond]

They may gain in form but not in substance.

As you say
shall we be realistic ?

Voting for republicans for the pass 25 years has only brought us closer to the Socialist/Fascist nightmare land you and i both shun.
A slow back road or the highway to big gov't socialism what's the difference, realistically?
Please name any 2 thing that would have moved the country back toward the constitution and less gov't that Romney was ready to do?
Even Obama care he was only going to tweak. IT WAS HIS PLAN FROM MASSACHUSETTS.
is that realistic enough for you?

the ONLY thing Romney Might have done is not Support the homosexual marriage thing or Abortion which he'd have very little influence on ANYWAY.
If we are being realistic.

He was not going to change anything concerning the NSA surveillance we all are now aware of,
or change anything about killing Americans, or jail any Wall st crooks.
Was he going to close or shrink any departments, or agencies? reduce gov't in anyway?
Reduce gov't encroachment on our rights or property any realistic fashion?
Obama didn't even close Gitmo so no change there.
What realistically was he going to do differently other than put a republican label on the same basic big gov't machine?

MY realism tries to sees the Politicians for what they DO not just the labels they put on and the rhetoric they spew.
Quoting Jefferson or quoting Marx before my phone is tapped make little practical difference it seems to me Drummond.



We on the right claim we believe in capitalism, free markets, market forces etc. but we allow a monopoly of 2 parties to dictate the market. By fraud and force of law.
we SAY competition is good. IMO realistically, the 2 parties need some competition.
We are the market force. If they see customers leaving, they may wise up... or not.
but i see no reason to continue to buy their poison, mis-advertised products.
Coke or Pepsi is not a realistic choice.

You're obviously very determined about this. Which is easily understandable.

Having a - somewhat limited - 'go' at Obama, here, is all very well .. but, you're doing so to an audience of people who are, I judge, predominantly Right wing. You hope it'll earn you Brownie points with them.

What is your message to your target audience ? That, for the sake of 'competition', and to shake things up a bit, voting should be split away from the GOP and to other, more 'minor', Parties. And how many of your target audience are Left wingers likely to be disenfranchised from voting Dem ?

I actually have sympathy for the argument as you've presented it, as, of course, I am MEANT to do. But I'm afraid you can't get around the fact that a fractured Right wing voting base AIDS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. You know it. I know it.

So, why are you bothering ?

Oh, and I liked your 'We on the right claim' ... wording. You're on the RIGHT, eh ? When did that happen ?? :laugh:

--- And you LAMENT the NON closure of Gitmo !!!!

Revelarts, thanks for an enjoyable post ...:rolleyes:

[revelarts]

rev. When you speak so negatively about Republicans, you say has been saying for 30 years.
I find it very disingenuous of you to intentionally NOT mention, and ignore how the Democrats have promised
that LBJ promise to America of that GREAT SOCIETY. Which has still. never taken place because Democrats
depend on, and only get re-elected by the Americans who are still waiting...while their opportunities to become
more Knowledgeable, and More Educated...have been blocked in order to maintain the DUMBED-DOWN status that
got us TWO OBAMA TERMS.

It's a foregone conclusion with most here and ME that the Humanitarian Guns and Butter programs to prosperity and the "no one falling through the cracks" bill of goods of the democrats is a lie. and A lie that's been feed to the left for years. Those truly committed to the more socialist agenda do see though the lie. but still push for the CORPORATE version of Obama care over their favored GOv't only style socialist version. Both are bad, frankly i'm not sure which is worse. For the Social agenda leftist they have been getting away with murder on those issue. the political DEMS REALLY fight strategically for their perversions. the Republicans tend to make Speeches and move the line back a notch and stand there as if they are holding it.. the True leftist civil libertarians , like some of the ACLU, Glen Greenwald, have realized they've been duped by Obama. but like many on the board here. they can't IMAGINE voting for a Republican or a 3rd party candidate. "don't you know how ruthless the Republicans are". the ANti war leftist are the same, they KNOW Obama is a war monger but , "what are we going to do, the Republicans are worse, and we can't waste our vote on a 3rd party. That will mean the that -gasp-- the republicans will win. And they are all racist against Obama anyway snarl hiss."

While the politicians and corporations laugh and piss on the Constitution, help themselves to the public treasure, and ride the rank and file D's an R's like stupid girl friends. making promises to them they know they won't keep, while taking money from their purses, bedding them down, slapping them, putting their kids in the fire all the while saying they love them and "we are a team".
Then the 2 girls meet on the street and fight over who's man is better.

your asking me why i don't run down the "other man". they are both Crap on a stick AT.
genuine enough?

the majority of the Dems and Repubs party movers and shakers are not the friends of the Republic or the Constitution.

And it's been my opinion for a while now that MORE of the same party politics is NOT going to change things.
things like the tea party had potential, maybe still has but it's been co-oped.
One of my problems with BOTH parties is they are selective with which parts of the constitution that want to promote.

if the rank and file of both side would agree that ALL 10 amendments, all of the articles and real separation of powers and LIMITED authority of the feds. it'd go a long way.
THATS the education we need.

But to many people on the left and right see the Gov't as their tool. Either to get stuff or faux protection and revenge. constitution be danged.

[aboutime]

It's a foregone conclusion with most here and ME that Humanitarian Guns and Butter programs to prosperity and "no one falling through the cracks" bill of goods of the democrats is a lie. and A lie that's been feed to left for years. Those truly commited to the more socilist agenga do see though the lie. but still push for the CORPORATE version of Obama care over there favored GOv't only style socialist version. Both are bad, frankly i'm not sure which is worse. on the Social agenda types they have been getting away with murder on those issue. the political DEMS REALLY fight strategically for their perversions. the Repubulicans tend to make Speeches and move the line back a notch. the True leftist civil libertians , like some of the ACLU, Glen Greenwald, have realilized they've been duped by Obama. but like many on the board here. they can't IMAGINE voting for a republican or a 3rd party candidate. "don't you know how ruthless the Republicans are". the ANti war leftist are the same, they KNOW Obama is a war monger but , "what are we going to do the Republicans are worse, and we can't waste our vote on a 3rd party. That will mean the that -gasp-- the republicans will win. And they are all racist against Obama anyway snarl hiss.

While the politicans and corporations laugh and piss on the Constitution help themselves to the public treasure, and ride the rank and file D's an R's like stupid girl friends. making promises to them they know they keep, while taking money from their purses, bedding them down, slapping them, putting their kids in the fire all the while saying they love them and we are a team.
Then the 2 girls meet on the street and fight over who's man is better.

your asking me why i don't run down the "other man". they are both Crap on a stick AT.
genuine enough?

the majority of the Dems and Repubs party movers and shakers are not the friends of the Republic or the Constitution.


And it's been my opinion for a while now that MORE of the same party politics is NOT going to change things.

things like the tea party had potenial, maybe still has but it's been co-oped.

One of my problems with BOTH parties is they are selective with which parts of the constitution that want to promote.

if the rank and file of both side would agree that ALL 10 amendments, all of the articles and real separation of powers and LIMITED authority of the feds. it'd go a long way.
THATS the education we need.

But to many people on the left and right see the Gov't as their tool. Either to get stuff or faux protection and revenge. constitution be danged.


rev. If you hadn't been so involved in trying to convince everybody how MUCH you claim to know here. You might have taken the time to actually read my posts...from the recent past, where I declared ALL POLITICIANS, from ALL PARTIES are not to be Trusted, or Believed.
Guess you couldn't see the Forest for the Tree's.

[red state]

Give REV a break About Time....he hasn't learned yet that you are worthy enough to read and APPLY. I, on the other hand, have heard, read and applied all of my friend's positions and I've heard you say that on a number of occasions within DP and other sites. I agree 110% and find myself in the middle of what everyone has said....which means that we are ALL in a pickle. HA!!! We should not have to be so rough on each other but in these times, we must get rough with one another to come to a reasonable solution (not that any solution or conclusion will fix the mess we have).

I would LOVE to see a ticket with About Time, REV, Tyr and so many others here at DP. I'd vote for every one of you guys over what we've had to vote for within the past 24+ years.

[Drummond]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/image.php?u=2275&dateline=1344800665 TYR

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=652456#post652456)
Bravo!! -:beer:. My friend you have far more true American values than most American citizens do! You really should consider relocating to here. Neither Britain or Australia will be fit to live in in less than a decade. The muslims will destroy them both. Here you could join the good fight against them and their damn leftist allies. Think about it because going out in a fight for the most worthy cause is far better than dying a miserable death of old age and bad health IMHO. AT LEAST TO ME IT IS. And then there is always the possibility of living thru it all and seeing victory and a new rebirth of this nation. I can think of nothing better than destroying hundreds/maybe even thousands(?) of vermin , can you? You same as Noir just exhibited great love of freedom of speech. I give Noir credit for that and his posting honest answers to the questions, FJ TOO!!!!!! Both proved there is far more to them than some of us had realized. At least to me they did. Still I 'll not holster my six shooter just yet. ;) Hell , know for a fact that I was meant to have been born and killed during the Wild West era. Never can be sure which side of the law I would have been planted on ..:laugh:--Tyr


__________________________________________________ _________




http://www.debatepolicy.com/image.php?u=2287&dateline=1340394532 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?2287-Drummond)


:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Drummond Wrote: Thanks for this post, and most especially your final sentence ... which I greatly appreciate.



__________________________________________________ _____________________________




http://www.debatepolicy.com/image.php?u=2280&dateline=1343797919&type=thumbRED STATE

Drummond, without labeling you as an old fart like Tyr and About Time, I'd like to remind folks your age that YOUR age group (and mine) are a dying breed. Those born during and after the Slick Willie years do not know the greatness of American and the combined efforts of the FREE world. Through indoctrination of our public school system and the lame stream media, the masses have been left brain damaged....if not DEAD.


We have very few WWII vets left and those my age or older will soon follow....at least our ability to effectively FIGHT will soon follow those GREAT men who fought and defeated tyranny. The young, tough, able bodied kids of today are worried more with XBox, a good time and (God help us) their primping time. Our essence is becoming that of B.O.'s image....lying, cheating, prideful vanity, slothfulness and morality. I see VERY few within the YOUNG ranks who would or could do as those GREAT Americans who came before them. We can't rely on the integrity of those serving in the military because less than 1% are TRUE, Constitutionally knowledgeable or loyal patriots. In fact, I'd say true patriots are out numbered greatly with many in it merely for the pay (because of poor decisions or guidance during younger years) or because they have a liberal agend in helping B.O. fundamentally change ALL that has made America great. Then, there is always those who are our sleepers for other countries/cults. I truly believe we would be shocked to know all that is eroding our military and society.


Tyr, as for our supporting Republicans....the only solution is for us to become more involved. This includes submitting/supporting more quality individuals who are TRUE AMERICANs. We must also consider running for office ourselves. I believe we need more "joe plumbers" and Palins and less McCains, Romneys and Rubios. I was extremely disappointed in Palin after some of her decisions (both during and after the McCain embarrassment) but she is a perfect example of the "little people" simply getting involved and KEEPING the support from those who placed her from mayor to gov. to possibly VP (had McCain not been such a FAKE). The Republican Party is practically non-existence....WE need to make it REPUBLICAN again but I'm still not abandoning the possibility of a third party. Who knows, the current treatment of Hispanics after the Martin/Zimmerman case could possibly wake the Hispanic vote to where they realize who truly believe in TRUTH, JUSTICE and the AMERICAN way (Conservatives).


We can go down fighting but I fear that the fight (both politically and otherwise) should have happened YEARS ago....while many who LOVE and know true freedom were young.

Thanks for your post. Some wise words ...

You make a good case. Even so, I refuse to believe that even your youth can't rise up to future challenges .. because I believe that the spirit of individualism, pride, caring about freedom, these are MUCH stronger in your part of the world than mine.

Can I quantify that to illustrate I'm right ? Admittedly I might find it difficult.

The GOP needs change .. say, a Michele Bachmann figure to win out and become a Party standard-bearer. It won't happen anything like 'overnight', of course, but will probably take multiple election seasons to bring off. BUT, abandoning the GOP in the meantime only gives the Dems the gift of future Presidencies.

Surely that's way too high a price for attempting electoral protest voting ?

Last but not least .. call me an 'old fart' just as you please. It's only the truth, after all ! :laugh:

[aboutime]

Thanks for your post. Some wise words ...

You make a good case. Even so, I refuse to believe that even your youth can't rise up to future challenges .. because I believe that the spirit of individualism, pride, caring about freedom, these are MUCH stronger in your part of the world than mine.

Can I quantify that to illustrate I'm right ? Admittedly I might find it difficult.

The GOP needs change .. say, a Michele Bachmann figure to win out and become a Party standard-bearer. It won't happen anything like 'overnight', of course, but will probably take multiple election seasons to bring off. BUT, abandoning the GOP in the meantime only gives the Dems the gift of future Presidencies.

Surely that's way too high a price for attempting electoral protest voting ?

Last but not least .. call me an 'old fart' just as you please. It's only the truth, after all ! :laugh:


Sir Drummond. Totally agree about our children rising up to future challenges. Which is why, I plan on Pissing A LOT of people off, by not DYING until after I am sure our Grand children have been informed...to the fullest extent possible. About HISTORY, and the other Common Sense, Taken for granted, Life events...few seem aware of, or will ever learn on their own.
Having had the experience twice of nearly becoming WORM DIRT, or ASHES for the savings of the family. It's gonna take much more to get me out of MANY PEOPLE'S HAIR. I might even consider SITTING UP in my coffin one day. Just to scare the BEJESUS out of the NON BELIEVERS. :laugh:

[Drummond]

Sir Drummond. Totally agree about our children rising up to future challenges. Which is why, I plan on Pissing A LOT of people off, by not DYING until after I am sure our Grand children have been informed...to the fullest extent possible. About HISTORY, and the other Common Sense, Taken for granted, Life events...few seem aware of, or will ever learn on their own.
Having had the experience twice of nearly becoming WORM DIRT, or ASHES for the savings of the family. It's gonna take much more to get me out of MANY PEOPLE'S HAIR. I might even consider SITTING UP in my coffin one day. Just to scare the BEJESUS out of the NON BELIEVERS. :laugh::clap::clap::clap::clap:


Now you're talking !!!

Go to it, and be an inspiration to the decent folk, and a great aggravation to others ! It's all in the greatest cause imaginable !

[revelarts]

You're obviously very determined about this. Which is easily understandable.

Having a - somewhat limited - 'go' at Obama, here, is all very well .. but, you're doing so to an audience of people who are, I judge, predominantly Right wing. You hope it'll earn you Brownie points with them.

What is your message to your target audience ? That, for the sake of 'competition', and to shake things up a bit, voting should be split away from the GOP and to other, more 'minor', Parties. And how many of your target audience are Left wingers likely to be disenfranchised from voting Dem ?

I actually have sympathy for the argument as you've presented it, as, of course, I am MEANT to do. But I'm afraid you can't get around the fact that a fractured Right wing voting base AIDS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. You know it. I know it.

So, why are you bothering ?

Oh, and I liked your 'We on the right claim' ... wording. You're on the RIGHT, eh ? When did that happen ?? :laugh:

--- And you LAMENT the NON closure of Gitmo !!!!

Revelarts, thanks for an enjoyable post ...:rolleyes:

I began as a conservative under Reagan (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?28499-Here-s-a-quote-for-you&p=652753#post652753), i haven't change THAT much since then. i believe in most of what he "said". he did otherwise at times but often he was on course.

You however come across to me as more of a NEO-Con rather than a conservative.
you'd use the Constitution and forget it to suit your own ideas of right wrong and "safety" .



<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Dg0Axyvlkm0?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" width="640" frameborder="0" height="360"></iframe>
Signed the Torture treaty - that we borke.
Gitmo wasn't a Prison camp when he was in office
Many joint cheifs, genreal and military officers sign letters and and recommendations to close Gitmo. i guess they are NOT conservative either. many legal men and women in military resigned over what they saw and did in Gitmo. they say it BROKE THEIR OATH to the constitution.
If being conservative means we can't follow the Constitution then NO I am not a conservative.
Whatever THAT is, you can have it Drummond.


“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy”
http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/as4.gif James Madison quotes (http://thinkexist.com/quotes/james_madison/)

[red state]

My OLD friend, I respect you more than you will ever know and appreciate your posts extremely but I'll have to both agree and disagree with you. The indoctrination is so wide spread that the OLD America (as you probably remember it) is gone. We've been water downed too much. I'm not saying that there'd never be a chance or ability to fill the shoes of our founders but the odds get more and more intimidating every day. I'm not a betting man but if I were, I'd feel very edgy if ever to place a wager on how well our youth will "carry the candle".

Take Michelle Bachman...since you brought her up; she is weak. I like her a great deal but she is extremely weak when it comes to actually standing against adversity. She had a second chance (and quite an easy way out) had she simply stood her ground when they asked her about her "obedience" to her husband. She failed to answer with truth and logic and chose to tap dance. Again, I like her and Palin but if they are your expected way out of this....we are in a pickle indeed.

As Gaff said, Allen West is not only a true Conservative but a intellectual who knows his history and what it means to serve this Nation. He was stabbed in the back over his seat and instead of begging him to be our #1 hope to destroy B.O., they all but destroyed him and ignored those who voted for him as representative. He was a Washington...and I don't just mean a George Washington but a Booker T. Washington. West is sharp as a tac and I can't imagine any of the lame stream media or B.O. getting the best of him. As Gaff said....he tells it like it is and doesn't sugar coat his words. But West is of my generation and we're not getting any younger. Soon, there will not even be the lone shouts in the wilderness like West and the generation who has known no history and has been told that the Sharptons, Obamas, Holders and others are the ones to swear loyalty to.

Our schools have replaced Booker T Washington with Malcolm X, and our media is replacing Christianity for iSLUM. We've replace the integrity of hard work, saving and providing with that of dishonesty, waste and thievery. The SOUTH is the last vesture of FREEDOM but all coasts and borders are closing in and I see very little hope with an increasing grip getting tighter and tighter.

[revelarts]

rev. If you hadn't been so involved in trying to convince everybody how MUCH you claim to know here. You might have taken the time to actually read my posts...from the recent past, where I declared ALL POLITICIANS, from ALL PARTIES are not to be Trusted, or Believed.
Guess you couldn't see the Forest for the Tree's.

AT sometimes it's hard to talk to you.

you just accused me of not being genuine becuase i didn't condemn the democrats enough.
I write a post condemning the democrats and republicans ,
BUT THEN you complain that i didn't read some post where YOU condemned all politicians too.

what the heck are u talking about, it seems like you just follow me around to make snide comments behind all my post.

AT can't you read MY post, I've COMPLAINED ABOUT BOTH SIDES FOR YEARS HERE AS WELL.
gezz

If you have said a thing or 2 once in a while great, WE agree.
so get off my back.

[Drummond]

I began as a conservative under Reagan (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?28499-Here-s-a-quote-for-you&p=652753#post652753), i haven't change THAT much since then. i believe in most of what he "said". he did otherwise at times but often he was on course.

You however come across to me as more of a NEO-Con rather than a conservative.
you'd use the Constitution and forget it to suit your own ideas of right wrong and "safety" .



<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Dg0Axyvlkm0?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" width="640" frameborder="0" height="360"></iframe>
Signed the Torture treaty - that we borke.
Gitmo wasn't a Prison camp when he was in office
Many joint cheifs, genreal and military officers sign letters and and recommendations to close Gitmo. i guess they are NOT conservative either. many legal men and women in military resigned over what they saw and did in Gitmo. they say it BROKE THEIR OATH to the constitution.
If being conservative means we can't follow the Constitution then NO I am not a conservative.
Whatever THAT is, you can have it Drummond.


“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy”
http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/as4.gif James Madison quotes (http://thinkexist.com/quotes/james_madison/)

'Nicely' done. Claim Conservative credentials one minute, then proceed to rubbish someone who truly IS a Conservative.

You try to pin a 'neocon' tag on me, Revelarts. Interesting. I thought only Lib types used language like that ?

But in slightly more detail ... I am, as my Avatar title says, 'Proudly Thatcherite'. You want to understand me ... so ponder what I mean by 'Proudly Thatcherite'. And consider the Golden Age of transatlantic partnership which a Reagan-Thatcher association brought to both our countries.

On your mention of the Constitution, I can only say that as a British citizen, I cannot identify with it as an American would, purely and simply because, in my culture, we possess no such equivalent to it. This does NOT imply disrespect to your Constitution ... in fact, I consider it a weakness of the UK that we lack such a thing and pay it the reverence that you do. Nonetheless, I cannot claim an identification with something I have little personal familiarity with.

[Robert A Whit]

I am a Reaganite!!!!!!!!!

That man was a genius on politics.

[red state]

Rev, I believe you are wrong on this issue and now see why you never responded to my question about Allen West (within another thread and another day). If you believe what you wrote above then you believe Allen West is also in the wrong when he saved many of his men after holding a gun to a muSLUMS head.

I like that and do not consider it torture. Neither do I consider water boarding torture. In fact, I can imagine that you would be the type to offer all the comforts of home to the worst among us and/or our enemies. When I see our MEN who have had limbs blown off or blinded OR DEAD, I wish I could do more in preventing the animals of the world from doing this (just as Allen West did) so don't tell me that I'm not a Constitutional-American simply because I don't show the same weakness. Show me where the Constitution says for us to provide our enemies with soccer fields and other luxuries. These guys should be shot on site or given a quick trial before being shot on site. They wear no uniform and involve themselves in cowardly acts that kill their own people most of the time. I believe our Constitution or laws provides us the RIGHT to treat them like the dogs they are.

[red state]

As for GITMO....I see a vacation resort whenever I come across video or photos of the place. In fact, I get outraged when I hear of a 100,000 k soccer field being built for them (just an example I'm not sure what that cost but a buck would be too much as far as I'm concerned).

The only travesty I saw was the creeps who were punished and dishonorably discharged for the photos of nude arabs (AND THAT WAS YEARS AGO). Show me where we've cut fingers off or something like that and I'll have to agree with you....other wise, you need to settle down a bit cuz our special forces training is MUCH worse than what out ENEMIES are forced to endure.

Heck, I've had a coach who was worse than what those animals in GITMO go through!!! The liberal "girly man" thingy had got to go or we really are doomed.

[revelarts]

'Nicely' done. Claim Conservative credentials one minute, then proceed to rubbish someone who truly IS a Conservative.

You try to pin a 'neocon' tag on me, Revelarts. Interesting. I thought only Lib types used language like that ?

But in slightly more detail ... I am, as my Avatar title says, 'Proudly Thatcherite'. You want to understand me ... so ponder what I mean by 'Proudly Thatcherite'. And consider the Golden Age of transatlantic partnership which a Reagan-Thatcher association brought to both our countries.

On your mention of the Constitution, I can only say that as a British citizen, I cannot identify with it as an American would, purely and simply because, in my culture, we possess no such equivalent to it. This does NOT imply disrespect to your Constitution ... in fact, I consider it a weakness of the UK that we lack such a thing and pay it the reverence that you do. Nonetheless, I cannot claim an identification with something I have little personal familiarity with.
I try not to throw labels around to put people down Drummond. I used the term Neo-con as technical term. the best dictionary definition i found that fits my meaning is this.

Neo-Con
Meriam Webster
2. : a conservative who advocates the assertive promotion of democracy and United States national interest in international affairs including through military means .

2 people that most represent it in my mind are William Kristol and Dick Chenney.

I appreciate your respect for our culture of freedom. Much of it was born in the reformation Churches of the U.K.. and grew off of the Magna Cater and the like.

But I'm always amazed though how you and a few others LEAP over facts that don't jib with your positions with a snide remark and a wave of the hand.
Much like the liberals do, who you so often deride.

the generals and military men who want gitmo closed Drummond,
are they liberals, are they conservative by your standards?
calling the question "rubbish" is a pitiful dodge.
the neo-Con leadership glosses over these people as well. They, ...most of whom were never in the military... Advocate for more war all over the world and harsh treatment of suspects, prisoners and informants With no real legal or moral checks on the Presidents or the military's powers to kill or imprison or " enhanced interrogate".

If you believe THAT is real conservationism, then no i am not a conservative.

We may just have different views of what the term means.
Frankly i'm not wed to any label.
And I'm sure you'll call me and others "liberal" many more times before too long.

[aboutime]

As for GITMO....I see a vacation resort whenever I come across video or photos of the place. In fact, I get outraged when I hear of a 100,000 k soccer field being built for them (just an example I'm not sure what that cost but a buck would be too much as far as I'm concerned).

The only travesty I saw was the creeps who were punished and dishonorably discharged for the photos of nude arabs (AND THAT WAS YEARS AGO). Show me where we've cut fingers off or something like that and I'll have to agree with you....other wise, you need to settle down a bit cuz our special forces training is MUCH worse than what out ENEMIES are forced to endure.

Heck, I've had a coach who was worse than what those animals in GITMO go through!!! The liberal "girly man" thingy had got to go or we really are doomed.


I read today where the Obama Sequester is causing civilian, military contractors, and workers to lose hours, and pay while...AT THE SAME TIME....the GITMO hunger-strikers, and Booger-eaters are gettng NEW TELEVISIONS?
And WE THE PEOPLE are expected to just shut up, sit on our hands, and try not to be labeled RACISTS???

[revelarts]

Rev, I believe you are wrong on this issue and now see why you never responded to my question about Allen West (within another thread and another day). If you believe what you wrote above then you believe Allen West is also in the wrong when he saved many of his men after holding a gun to a muSLUMS head.

I didn't see the question.

I don't know the whole context for A West actions.
Was it inline with the code of military conduct? Does that even matter to anyone?




I like that and do not consider it torture. Neither do I consider water boarding torture. In fact, I can imagine that you would be the type to offer all the comforts of home to the worst among us and/or our enemies. When I see our MEN who have had limbs blown off or blinded OR DEAD, I wish I could do more in preventing the animals of the world from doing this (just as Allen West did) so don't tell me that I'm not a Constitutional-American simply because I don't show the same weakness. Show me where the Constitution says for us to provide our enemies with soccer fields and other luxuries. These guys should be shot on site or given a quick trial before being shot on site. They wear no uniform and involve themselves in cowardly acts that kill their own people most of the time. I believe our Constitution or laws provides us the RIGHT to treat them like the dogs they are.

See the torture threads for my thoughts on that, I'm pretty frank.

By the way there's a section in there where i quote WW2 Nazi interrogators how did in fact make it very comfortable for the Nazis. that got a lot of intell that way. that's how the pro do it. the untrained torture. or those trying to get forced confessions torture. At least that what the pros say.
and BTW the WW2 interrogators condemned in writing the use of torture/water-boarding at gitmo and else where as well.
I'll stand in their company any day.


IF saving lives is the goal, and not revenge. then interogate with the best method to get the best intel. and the pro say thats not via torture.

I'm not for "soccer fields" why do people always want to make my position extreme.

do i say to you guys.
Well you REALLY want to BOIL their children in oil before there eyes, and have rats eat out there mothers guts while they watch cooking on hot coals with monkey banging them in arses.
that's what you want to do i bet?

c'mon you should know me well enough by now to know i don't want to REWARD terrorist. But I don't want to torture anyone. it's CRUEL and Unusual Punishment. it is in the Constitution. and if we did on an illegal alien from Japan in a U.S. jail the constitution WOULD apply to him. Even if he's not a citizen. We don't put illegal aliens from England in jail INDEFINITELY? why not? It's unconstitutional. Anyone who goes to jail IN the U.S. is subject to the protections of our constitution. it's the Highest law of the LAND not the highest law of the citizens.

[red state]

I read today where the Obama Sequester is causing civilian, military contractors, and workers to lose hours, and pay while...AT THE SAME TIME....the GITMO hunger-strikers, and Booger-eaters are gettng NEW TELEVISIONS?
And WE THE PEOPLE are expected to just shut up, sit on our hands, and try not to be labeled RACISTS???


TV!!!!! WOW! That really is torture.....especially if the muSLUMS were forced to watch the VIEW or B.O. spewing all the $#!T that comes out of his mouth. God forgive us for torturing those poor, innocent muSLUMS..

[aboutime]

TV!!!!! WOW! That really is torture.....especially if the muSLUMS were forced to watch the VIEW or B.O. spewing all the $#!T that comes out of his mouth. God forgive us for torturing those poor, innocent muSLUMS..


Next week, after seeing all the Obama TV ads about Obamacare. The Gitmo Vacationers will be asking for WATERBOARDING.

[red state]

REV WROTE: "c'mon you should know me well enough by now to know i don't want to REWARD terrorist. But I don't want to torture anyone. it's CRUEL and Unusual Punishment. it is in the Constitution. and if we did on an illegal alien from Japan in a U.S. jail the constitution WOULD apply to him. Even if he's not a citizen. We don't put illegal aliens from England in jail INDEFINITELY? why not? It's unconstitutional. Anyone who goes to jail IN the U.S. is subject to the protections of our constitution. it's the Highest law of the LAND not the highest law of the citizens."


REV, I simply didn't appreciate you lumping me in as one who does not believe in the Constitution. I do and I do not share your definition of torture so unless they're not cutting fingers off or anything, my over imaginative reference to the soccer fields was no more distasteful than your reference to 'torture' at GITMO. And the last time I checked, only CITIZENS fall under the Constitution and the issuing of RIGHTS. I realize that I may be wrong on that but I stand by what I know and will risk learning more later. I am fairly certain that the guys in GITMO could fall under charges that should have brought them QUICKLY to a firing squad (especially the repeaters) so I truly don't wish to hear about someone's opinion that so zealously fights for the rights of those who would slit my daughter's throat.

In closing, is GITMO; (A) the local, county jail or is it (B) a holding area for 'war criminals'. It may be classified as neither but I'll go with (B) until someone much smarter than I calls it for what it is or shows me in the Constitution where war criminals deserve anything (but a hard way and a quick firing squad). Now that is REAL, HARD CORE CONSERVATISM so you can call me a Neo-Con if you like but hard times calls for hard measures and I'm sick of the hard times caused by a bunch of hard heads....(not talking about you) just saying.

[red state]

Next week, after seeing all the Obama TV ads about Obamacare. The Gitmo Vacationers will be asking for WATERBOARDING.

I don't know which is worse...sitting through and hour of B.O.'s BS or the cackling on the VIEW. What say ye old buddy? Shall we take a vote. If so...I'll take the cackling over B.O.'s BS. It is much easier to sit and listen to a bunch of women that you wouldn't hit over hearing an arrogant SOB who insults you and AMERICA in almost every sentence...that you would simply LOVE to "salute".

[aboutime]

I don't know which is worse...sitting through and hour of B.O.'s BS or the cackling on the VIEW. What say ye old buddy? Shall we take a vote. If so...I'll take the cackling over B.O.'s BS. It is much easier to sit and listen to a bunch of women that you wouldn't hit over hearing an arrogant SOB who insults you and AMERICA in almost every sentence...that you would simply LOVE to "salute".


I won't sit or listen to either. You can have the cackling, and B.O.'s BS. TV has become almost as dangerous to me as ROAD RAGE.

Both tend to make you want to RAM somebody. And both are only survivable IF YOU DON'T DO EITHER!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I like Allen West too. He's one of the few conservatives out there and he's not afraid to speak his mind or tell the truth about things. He would get my vote immediately.

A third party would turn this country into a democracy instead of a republic. That's what the liberals want. Then they get to have majority rule and mob rule with themselves always on top. It's all about the rich elites, that I call the new nobility. And they have no loyalty to party or country. Just their status. Who gets a barony, who gets a dukedom, who gets to be king next. They won't be replaced by a third party, they will just solidify their positions. Freaking bravo!! :beer: --:clap::clap::clap: Dead on accurate and as sure as God made little red apples the concept of a third party saving America for the Republican party is promoted by the dems/libs and leftists. Promoted because they know it'll insure their absolute control for at least a hundred years or more. Nothing but a revolution will save this nation IMHO. I'LL TELL YA WHY THAT IS TOO. It is because we the citizens sat back and allowed the frog to be put into the pot , the burner to be turned on and the cooks to stand in attendance over the cooking! Not only let it but sadly we often cheered it on as enlightenment! All the while ignorantly not realizing that WE are the damn FROG! THIS COULD HAVE BEEN STOPPED 20 YEARS AGO BUT NOW ITS GOING TO PLAY OUT BECAUSE GOVERNMENT IS LARGE AND POWERFUL ENOUGH TO FORCE THAT.. I was warning friends about this over 20 years ago. Ran into an old friend about 4 months ago and reminded him of our talks and my predictions to which he admitted its pretty much came to pass as I stated it would. Even the part about Americans being dumbed down enough to celebrate it as great enlightenment. Guy even apologized for his criticism back then. He did his 20 in the military and then 16 as a crop duster pilot. Cat turned out alright even if he was a dem back then. Admitted he ffed up and voted for Clinton but hell no not for bamboy either time. -Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Give REV a break About Time....he hasn't learned yet that you are worthy enough to read and APPLY. I, on the other hand, have heard, read and applied all of my friend's positions and I've heard you say that on a number of occasions within DP and other sites. I agree 110% and find myself in the middle of what everyone has said....which means that we are ALL in a pickle. HA!!! We should not have to be so rough on each other but in these times, we must get rough with one another to come to a reasonable solution (not that any solution or conclusion will fix the mess we have).

I would LOVE to see a ticket with About Time, REV, Tyr and so many others here at DP. I'd vote for every one of you guys over what we've had to vote for within the past 24+ years. I'd like to second that advice given to you by redstate . The Rev has his good points just like we all do. AT my friend, I believe he is sincerely posting what he believes to be right and best. I disagree sometimes and loudly agree at other times. Cut him some slack if you can find it in your heart to do so. Because none of us are perfect and myself I'm a long way from getting there. Still jumping obstacles that I placed in my path long , long ago..-;)--Tyr

[Drummond]

I try not to throw labels around to put people down Drummond. I used the term Neo-con as technical term. the best dictionary definition i found that fits my meaning is this.

Neo-Con
Meriam Webster
2. : a conservative who advocates the assertive promotion of democracy and United States national interest in international affairs including through military means .

2 people that most represent it in my mind are William Kristol and Dick Chenney.

I appreciate your respect for our culture of freedom. Much of it was born in the reformation Churches of the U.K.. and grew off of the Magna Cater and the like.

But I'm always amazed though how you and a few others LEAP over facts that don't jib with your positions with a snide remark and a wave of the hand.
Much like the liberals do, who you so often deride.

the generals and military men who want gitmo closed Drummond,
are they liberals, are they conservative by your standards?
calling the question "rubbish" is a pitiful dodge.
the neo-Con leadership glosses over these people as well. They, ...most of whom were never in the military... Advocate for more war all over the world and harsh treatment of suspects, prisoners and informants With no real legal or moral checks on the Presidents or the military's powers to kill or imprison or " enhanced interrogate".

If you believe THAT is real conservationism, then no i am not a conservative.

We may just have different views of what the term means.
Frankly i'm not wed to any label.
And I'm sure you'll call me and others "liberal" many more times before too long.

I can't speak for others in this regard ... but I can certainly tell you, revelarts, that if you argue like a liberal, I'll have ample reason to think of you as one, and therefore to categorise you accordingly.

It's really up to you. If you don't provide evidence of a keenness to think and argue like a Leftie, why would I infer that ? However, if you DO argue as one ... so be it ...

Enlighten me. WHICH generals and military men want Gitmo closed ? Perhaps I'll judge that they are liberals. If, in fact, I've reason to.

For my part, I think that the Gitmo detainees should feel enormously grateful that America even keeps them alive at all. Talk of their getting any LUXURIES makes my blood boil ! Maybe their victims would've liked a 'luxury' or two themselves ... like, freedom to LIVE, or freedom to live without the consequences of blown-off limbs ... !! ....

I don't advocate more war, AS SUCH. However .. if it's called for, then it is. Harsh treatment of 'suspects' .. don't you mean subhuman terrorists ? Revelarts, call this AS IT IS !

I just DON'T CARE if they're treated 'harshly' ... they are ENEMIES, who, if given the chance, would massacre your loved ones. My message to you, is .. WAKE UP !!

[revelarts]

Ok i'll give it shot..
:dunno:
Drummond many of the so-called suspects/terrorist/sub-humans have been cleared for release.
They are NOT terrorist who deserve "harsh" treatment. they were "suspects" some completly innocent just turned over to the U.S. military for a bounty.
you know a mistake. innocent people in jail for being in the wrong place wrong time.

I doubt you believe that but it's true.

Anyway
to name a few of the military people that --and others- that think Gitmo should be closed

Army Gen. David Petraeus
"Closing the military prison at Guantanamo Bay would purge the U.S. of a symbol used by enemies to divide the nation, the head of the U.S. Central Command said Friday.Army Gen. David Petraeus said the U.S. military is "beat around the head and shoulders" with images of detainees held in Guantanamo, the facility in Cuba President Barack Obama has vowed to close. He said closing Guantanamo and ensuring detainees are dealt with by an appropriate judicial system would bolster the nation's war effort in Afghanistan and Iraq..."
http://www.armytimes.com/article/20090529/NEWS/905290316/Petraeus-supports-closure-Guantanamo



...........

June 13, 2013: Letter from Retired Generals and Admirals on Comprehensive Framework to Close GTMO (http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/uploads/pdfs/letter-from-retired-generals-admirals-on-cmprehensive-framework-to-close-gtmo.pdf)


GENERAL JOSEPH P. HOAR, USMC (RET.)
GENERAL CHARLES C. KRULAK, USMC (RET.)
GENERAL DAVID M. MADDOX, USA (RET.)
GENERAL MERRILL A. MCPEAK, USAF (RET.)
LIEUTENANT GENERAL ROBERT G. GARD, USA (RET.)
VICE ADMIRAL LEE F. GUNN, USN (RET.)
LIEUTENANT GENERAL ARLEN D. JAMESON, USAF (RET.)
LIEUTENANT GENERAL CHARLES OTSTOTT, USA (RET.)
MAJOR GENERAL PAUL D. EATON, USA (RET.)
MAJOR GENERAL EUGENE FOX, USA (RET.)
REAR ADMIRAL DON GUTER, JAGC, USN (RET.)
REAR ADMIRAL JOHN D. HUTSON, JAGC, USN (RET.)
MAJOR GENERAL MELVYN S. MONTANO, USAF (RET.)
MAJOR GENERAL WILLIAM L. NASH, USA (RET.)
MAJOR GENERAL WALTER L. STEWART, JR., USA (RET.)
MAJOR GENERAL ANTONIO M. TAGUBA, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL JOHN ADAMS, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL DAVID M. BRAHMS, USMC (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL STEPHEN A. CHENEY, USMC (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL EVELYN P. FOOTE, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL GERALD E. GALLOWAY, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL LEIF H. HENDRICKSON, USMC (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL DAVID R. IRVINE, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL JOHN H. JOHNS, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL RICHARD O’MEARA, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL MURRAY G. SAGSVEEN, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL EARL M. SIMMS, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL ANTHONY VERRENGIA, USAF (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL STEPHEN N. XENAKIS, USA (RET.)

June 13, 2013
Dear Member of Congress:
We are members of a group of fifty retired generals and admirals who believe that Guantanamo
harms our national security. We encourage you to vote for Rep. Adam Smith’s amendment #20 to
the National Defense Authorization Act (H.R. 1960) that provides a comprehensive framework for
closing Guantanamo by 2014.
In the age of sequestration, we cannot fathom any rational argument that favors spending more
than $1,500,000 per detainee compared to the $34,000 it costs to incarcerate prisoners at a high
security federal facility. Indeed, spending what could be hundreds of millions annually to detain
86 men that have been cleared for transfer by the government is folly. General John F. Kelly has
testified that Southern Command’s “ability to fully execute [its] mission is at extreme risk [due to]
sequestration.” The fixed and increasing costs of Guantanamo do not help.
In addition, the Guantanamo prison challenges the United States in building the rule of law
programs to counter terrorism in other nations when those countries view us as not abiding by the
same principles at Guantanamo. Zimbabwe, Russia, Syria, Egypt, and Iran have all cited
Guantanamo as justifications for detention regimes and human rights records the United States has
criticized. Hence, it is incumbent on the United States to charge, prosecute or release the
remaining detainees to bring to justice those who have committed crimes, and end law of war
detention as the war in Afghanistan draws to a close.
If we are to make America more secure against disparate and diffuse terrorist threats around the
globe, we must win with our values, and we must support other nations in taking responsibility for
threats within their borders. The United States must close Guantanamo as part of a comprehensive
counterterrorism strategy.

Sincerely,
Signed...


....................

John McCain, US Senator, R-Az

"I would immediately close Guantanamo Bay, move all the prisoners to Fort Leavenworth (Kansas) and truly expedite the judicial proceedings in their cases".

.......................

04/05/08

Five former U.S. secretaries of State said Thursday the next president should move quickly to close the military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
That single act would improve America's dismal reputation in the world immediately, agreed
Henry Kissinger,
James Baker,
Warren Christopher,
Madeleine Albrightand
Colin Powell.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/28/former-secretaries-of-sta_n_93958.html


......................

Colonel Morris D. Davis retired a United States Air Force officer and lawyer,
was appointed to serve as the third Chief Prosecutor of the Guantanamo military commissions.

says Close Gitmo and not only that but


"April 29, 2008 GUANTANAMO BAY, Cuba, April 28 -- The Defense Department's former chief prosecutor for terrorism cases appeared Monday at the controversial U.S. detention facility here to argue on behalf of a terrorism suspect that the military justice system has been corrupted by politics and inappropriate influence from senior Pentagon officials.

Sitting just feet from the courtroom table where he had once planned to make cases against military detainees, Air Force Col. Morris Davis instead took the witness stand to declare under oath that he felt undue pressure to hurry cases along so that the Bush administration could claim before political elections that the system was working....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/28/AR2008042802982.html




Also of Interest.... maybe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_resignations_from_the_Guantanamo_military_ commission


http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/our-work/law-and-security/military-leaders/letters/

[aboutime]

Ok i'll give it shot..
:dunno:
Drummond many of the so-called suspects/terrorist/sub-humans have been cleared for release.
They are NOT terrorist who deserve "harsh" treatment. they were "suspects" some completly innocent just turned over to the U.S. military for a bounty.
you know a mistake. innocent people in jail for being in the wrong place wrong time.

I doubt you believe that but it's true.

Anyway
to name a few of the military people that --and others- that think Gitmo should be closed

Army Gen. David Petraeus
"Closing the military prison at Guantanamo Bay would purge the U.S. of a symbol used by enemies to divide the nation, the head of the U.S. Central Command said Friday.Army Gen. David Petraeus said the U.S. military is "beat around the head and shoulders" with images of detainees held in Guantanamo, the facility in Cuba President Barack Obama has vowed to close. He said closing Guantanamo and ensuring detainees are dealt with by an appropriate judicial system would bolster the nation's war effort in Afghanistan and Iraq..."
http://www.armytimes.com/article/20090529/NEWS/905290316/Petraeus-supports-closure-Guantanamo



...........

June 13, 2013: Letter from Retired Generals and Admirals on Comprehensive Framework to Close GTMO (http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/uploads/pdfs/letter-from-retired-generals-admirals-on-cmprehensive-framework-to-close-gtmo.pdf)


GENERAL JOSEPH P. HOAR, USMC (RET.)
GENERAL CHARLES C. KRULAK, USMC (RET.)
GENERAL DAVID M. MADDOX, USA (RET.)
GENERAL MERRILL A. MCPEAK, USAF (RET.)
LIEUTENANT GENERAL ROBERT G. GARD, USA (RET.)
VICE ADMIRAL LEE F. GUNN, USN (RET.)
LIEUTENANT GENERAL ARLEN D. JAMESON, USAF (RET.)
LIEUTENANT GENERAL CHARLES OTSTOTT, USA (RET.)
MAJOR GENERAL PAUL D. EATON, USA (RET.)
MAJOR GENERAL EUGENE FOX, USA (RET.)
REAR ADMIRAL DON GUTER, JAGC, USN (RET.)
REAR ADMIRAL JOHN D. HUTSON, JAGC, USN (RET.)
MAJOR GENERAL MELVYN S. MONTANO, USAF (RET.)
MAJOR GENERAL WILLIAM L. NASH, USA (RET.)
MAJOR GENERAL WALTER L. STEWART, JR., USA (RET.)
MAJOR GENERAL ANTONIO M. TAGUBA, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL JOHN ADAMS, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL DAVID M. BRAHMS, USMC (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL STEPHEN A. CHENEY, USMC (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL EVELYN P. FOOTE, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL GERALD E. GALLOWAY, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL LEIF H. HENDRICKSON, USMC (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL DAVID R. IRVINE, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL JOHN H. JOHNS, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL RICHARD O’MEARA, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL MURRAY G. SAGSVEEN, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL EARL M. SIMMS, USA (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL ANTHONY VERRENGIA, USAF (RET.)
BRIGADIER GENERAL STEPHEN N. XENAKIS, USA (RET.)

June 13, 2013
Dear Member of Congress:
We are members of a group of fifty retired generals and admirals who believe that Guantanamo
harms our national security. We encourage you to vote for Rep. Adam Smith’s amendment #20 to
the National Defense Authorization Act (H.R. 1960) that provides a comprehensive framework for
closing Guantanamo by 2014.
In the age of sequestration, we cannot fathom any rational argument that favors spending more
than $1,500,000 per detainee compared to the $34,000 it costs to incarcerate prisoners at a high
security federal facility. Indeed, spending what could be hundreds of millions annually to detain
86 men that have been cleared for transfer by the government is folly. General John F. Kelly has
testified that Southern Command’s “ability to fully execute [its] mission is at extreme risk [due to]
sequestration.” The fixed and increasing costs of Guantanamo do not help.
In addition, the Guantanamo prison challenges the United States in building the rule of law
programs to counter terrorism in other nations when those countries view us as not abiding by the
same principles at Guantanamo. Zimbabwe, Russia, Syria, Egypt, and Iran have all cited
Guantanamo as justifications for detention regimes and human rights records the United States has
criticized. Hence, it is incumbent on the United States to charge, prosecute or release the
remaining detainees to bring to justice those who have committed crimes, and end law of war
detention as the war in Afghanistan draws to a close.
If we are to make America more secure against disparate and diffuse terrorist threats around the
globe, we must win with our values, and we must support other nations in taking responsibility for
threats within their borders. The United States must close Guantanamo as part of a comprehensive
counterterrorism strategy.

Sincerely,
Signed...


....................

John McCain, US Senator, R-Az

"I would immediately close Guantanamo Bay, move all the prisoners to Fort Leavenworth (Kansas) and truly expedite the judicial proceedings in their cases".

.......................

04/05/08

Five former U.S. secretaries of State said Thursday the next president should move quickly to close the military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
That single act would improve America's dismal reputation in the world immediately, agreed
Henry Kissinger,
James Baker,
Warren Christopher,
Madeleine Albrightand
Colin Powell.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/28/former-secretaries-of-sta_n_93958.html


......................

Colonel Morris D. Davis retired a United States Air Force officer and lawyer,
was appointed to serve as the third Chief Prosecutor of the Guantanamo military commissions.

says Close Gitmo and not only that but


"April 29, 2008 GUANTANAMO BAY, Cuba, April 28 -- The Defense Department's former chief prosecutor for terrorism cases appeared Monday at the controversial U.S. detention facility here to argue on behalf of a terrorism suspect that the military justice system has been corrupted by politics and inappropriate influence from senior Pentagon officials.

Sitting just feet from the courtroom table where he had once planned to make cases against military detainees, Air Force Col. Morris Davis instead took the witness stand to declare under oath that he felt undue pressure to hurry cases along so that the Bush administration could claim before political elections that the system was working....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/28/AR2008042802982.html




Also of Interest.... maybe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_resignations_from_the_Guantanamo_military_ commission


http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/our-work/law-and-security/military-leaders/letters/


rev. I have little doubt. That letter about closing Gitmo was sincere from those Generals, and Admirals.
But...notice. All of them are Retired, and know how the Pentagon works hand-in-hand with the Administration,
spending, and the IRS. Specifically more so, today.
SO. Like Active Duty Admirals and Generals still working in the Pentagon.
NONE OF THEM WANT TO CHANCE BEING PLACED ON THAT (Secretive Black List)...all of them know exists, but
are sworn to NEVER admit, or disclose IF....they want to continue getting their retirement checks each month.

Anyone who thinks Retired Military just fell off the Turnip Truck, or was Born This morning knows.
YOU KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT...if you know WHAT'S GOOD FOR YOU.
Of course they would agree with closing Gitmo.
Being supportive of STRONG members of Congress, and the Administration makes for HAPPY CAMPERS.

[Robert A Whit]

Neo-Con
Meriam Webster
2. : a conservative who advocates the assertive promotion of democracy and United States national interest in international affairs including through military means .

2 people that most represent it in my mind are William Kristol and Dick Chenney.




Revelarts, you made the claim above.

First there seems to be a smear by you targeted on those you call Neo-cons.

Irving Kristol is the father of William Kryston and no doubt he shares man of his fathers beliefs.

Irving wrote a book that explained his views and William still speaks to his views.

What is wrong with democracy that our country could not have a goal for more of it?

Where has Irving or his son William stated they wanted war? War is the use of the military.

Then from the mouth of the Democrats, who are well known liars, you put Dick Cheney into that camp.

So, is there something wrong with Neo-Cons and why did you put Cheney into their camp?

[revelarts]

rev. I have little doubt. That letter about closing Gitmo was sincere from those Generals, and Admirals.
But...notice. All of them are Retired, and know how the Pentagon works hand-in-hand with the Administration,
spending, and the IRS. Specifically more so, today.
SO. Like Active Duty Admirals and Generals still working in the Pentagon.
NONE OF THEM WANT TO CHANCE BEING PLACED ON THAT (Secretive Black List)...all of them know exists, but
are sworn to NEVER admit, or disclose IF....they want to continue getting their retirement checks each month.

Anyone who thinks Retired Military just fell off the Turnip Truck, or was Born This morning knows.
YOU KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT...if you know WHAT'S GOOD FOR YOU.
Of course they would agree with closing Gitmo.
Being supportive of STRONG members of Congress, and the Administration makes for HAPPY CAMPERS.
really?
I guess that's one way to rationalize away the letter. and all of all the sectaries of states, and Gen Patrarus, the former gitmo commanders, prosecutors and lawyers and all the rest.
they are afraid for there pensions and careers? that's the tickt. yess. it all makes sense now. Obama really wants it closed, and powerful senatorss really want it close -- but they haven't done it-- so to get on the good side of those Powerful guys they write letters and make speeches they don't really believe.
"OoRah HoRAh Honor... Country... Duty... Pension."
Really?
you got any proof for that? If i said something like that people would be asking for "irrefutable proof".
Your, making up and assuming motives AT, get real.
You've got the document before you, believe what you want to make you feel better i guess. just don't say all the real military people say it's needs to stay open. THEY don't. Many understand that Gitmo is a liability and NOT an Asset. Much less necessary to fight terror.

[revelarts]

Revelarts, you made the claim above.
First there seems to be a smear by you targeted on those you call Neo-cons.

Irving Kristol is the father of William Krystol and no doubt he shares man of his fathers beliefs.

Irving wrote a book that explained his views and William still speaks to his views.

What is wrong with democracy that our country could not have a goal for more of it?

Where has Irving or his son William stated they wanted war? War is the use of the military.

Then from the mouth of the Democrats, who are well known liars, you put Dick Cheney into that camp.

So, is there something wrong with Neo-Cons and why did you put Cheney into their camp?
"What is wrong with democracy that our country could not have a goal for more of it?"
I quoted Reagan in the quotes thread, he mentioned that American should an EXEMPLAR and a BEACON for freedom.
The Neo-Con claim they us to be Grantors, Facilitators and Bulldozers for freedom. But if you dig deeper it's really just an excuse for soft imperialism and profiteering.


There's a few places to look to see why i combine the Kritols , seniou and jr with Chenny and others . they all are for preemptive war in the name of "freedom" and "democracy". interventionism is what it used to be called. And they all believe in BIG gov't and the idea of Nationalist Goals over individual goals and freedoms.

here are a few articles that mention some of it.


---Elliott Abrams unsurprisingly gives a completely self-serving and misleading definition of neoconservatism:
Now we are getting closer. Omit the negative value judgments in some of these definitions and one is left with patriotism, American exceptionalism, a belief in the goodness of America and in the benefits of American power and of its use, and a conviction that democracy is the best system of government and should be spread whenever that is practical.
This is not a very useful definition for understanding what neoconservative foreign policy is, but it is valuable as statement of what neoconservatives think of themselves. The only thing here that might count as a preferred policy is that democracy “should be spread whenever that is practical,” but that ultimately tells us very little. How do they think it is appropriate to spread democracy, and what do they mean by “whenever that is practical”? A common neoconservative answer to the former would be “by any and all means,” including military strikes, arming insurgencies, and even forcible regime change. As for the latter, they usually believe that it is almost always practical to do this, and if the U.S. “fails” to do so the “failure” is attributed to a lack of will and a lack of conviction on the part of the incumbent president.
Critical descriptions of neoconservatism are written off by Abrams as “negative value judgments” that can be ignored, and there is little or no discussion of specific policies favored by neoconservatives. Instead, Abrams retreats behind abstractions and platitudes as if these are what define neoconservatism. Some of these, such as patriotism and “belief in the goodness of America,” are so broad that they might very easily apply to almost the entire population, and as such they are virtually useless in defining what neoconservatism is. American exceptionalism sounds unobjectionable, but it doesn’t mean the same thing to neoconservatives and other hard-liners that it means to most of the rest of us. As they see it, American hegemony is inextricably linked to this idea, and to question or criticize the one is to reject the other. The more specifically one identifies what neoconservatives want the U.S. to do abroad, the less credible and popular their views usually are, so it probably seems safer to keep things as generic and vague as possible. One can believe all the things Abrams lists and still reject neoconservative foreign policy as dangerous and reckless.-----
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/defining-neoconservatism/


http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/american-richelieu/

---"In terms of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and the future of America—it was Dick Cheney who brought all the neocon hard-liner Cold Warriors into the Bush administration from the time he went to Texas to assist Governor Bush. This should have been no surprise. The Paul Wolfowitzes, the Richard Perles, the Lewis Libbys, the Douglas Feiths, the John Boltons were all on his teams, in the Pentagon, at the American Enterprise Institute, and now in “his” administration. Many worked together in the Project for a New American Century, with its 1998 letter to President Clinton urging him to overthrow Saddam Hussein."
---

Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, a former Pentagon insider, concludes her observations on the run-up to the Iraq war in this last of a three-part series.
As the winter of 2002 approached, I was increasingly amazed at the success of the propaganda campaign being waged by President Bush, Vice President Cheney, and neoconservative mouthpieces at the Washington Times and Wall Street Journal…..
In December, I requested an acceleration of my retirement after just over 20 years on duty and exactly the required three years of time-in-grade as a lieutenant colonel. I felt fortunate not to have being fired or court-martialed due to my politically incorrect ways in the previous two years as a real conservative in a neoconservative Office of Secretary of Defense. But in fact, my outspokenness was probably never noticed because civilian professionals and military officers were largely invisible. We were easily replaceable and dispensable, not part of the team brought in from the American Enterprise Institute, the Center for Security Policy, and the Washington Institute for Near East Affairs….
…In my study of the neoconservatives, it was easy to find out whom in Washington they liked and whom they didn’t. They liked most of the Heritage Foundation and all of the American Enterprise Institute. They liked writers Charles Krauthammer and Bill Kristol…---
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/open-door-policy/

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/gop-should-dump-neocons

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/whats-a-neoconservative/

Reagan Was No Neocon
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/reagan-was-no-neocon
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/cult-presidency


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Bill Kritol says Obama is a Born agian NeoCon after Libya
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6fNur18dlk

Ron Paul speech Neoconned
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aewpvcxAwTk

[aboutime]

really?
I guess that's one way to rationalize away the letter. and all of all the sectaries of states, and Gen Patrarus, the former gitmo commanders, prosecutors and lawyers and all the rest.
they are afraid for there pensions and careers? that's the tickt. yess. it all makes sense now. Obama really wants it closed, and powerful senatorss really want it close -- but they haven't done it-- so to get on the good side of those Powerful guys they write letters and make speeches they don't really believe.
"OoRah HoRAh Honor... Country... Duty... Pension."
Really?
you got any proof for that? If i said something like that people would be asking for "irrefutable proof".
Your, making up and assuming motives AT, get real.
You've got the document before you, believe what you want to make you feel better i guess. just don't say all the real military people say it's needs to stay open. THEY don't. Many understand that Gitmo is a liability and NOT an Asset. Much less necessary to fight terror.


rev. If Obama really wanted to close Gitmo, as he promised he'd do, long before he was elected.
Why is it still open, and holding prisoners, and why is the Govt. spending more for New TV's there, IF...
they intend to close it????

As for proving it. I haven't assumed anything. I spent 30 years around men like those Admirals at sea, and in strange sounding
names for commands like CINCLANTFLT, and Naval Telecommunications Center Command, where there were more Marine, and Navy FOUR Stars than
the Author TOM CLANCY could ever imagine in his books.
What many civilians have no idea about, or can imagine is. Those FOUR STAR Officers are Human beings who also get dressed the same way, have
the same feelings, and often let their Hair Down to talk like anyone else.
I can't repeat the conversations I have heard...IN PERSON. But. I am also, not afraid to tell the truth.
Something too many Americans really do not care to hear.

[revelarts]

rev. If Obama really wanted to close Gitmo, as he promised he'd do, long before he was elected.
Why is it still open, and holding prisoners, and why is the Govt. spending more for New TV's there, IF...
they intend to close it????

As for proving it. I haven't assumed anything. I spent 30 years around men like those Admirals at sea, and in strange sounding
names for commands like CINCLANTFLT, and Naval Telecommunications Center Command, where there were more Marine, and Navy FOUR Stars than
the Author TOM CLANCY could ever imagine in his books.
What many civilians have no idea about, or can imagine is. Those FOUR STAR Officers are Human beings who also get dressed the same way, have
the same feelings, and often let their Hair Down to talk like anyone else.
I can't repeat the conversations I have heard...IN PERSON. But. I am also, not afraid to tell the truth.
Something too many Americans really do not care to hear.
So without going into details,
you've heard them say that when they retire they will write letters to congress and CiC telling them what they want to hear so they don't loose their pensions? Or things to that effect?

[aboutime]

So without going into details,
you've heard them say that when they retire they will write letters to congress and CiC telling them what they want to hear so they don't loose their pensions? Or things to that effect?


rev. What planet do you live on? Did I say anything like that?

You can make up whatever makes you feel important, or smarter.
I, on the other hand. Have no intention of sharing any kind of conversation with you.
If I was able to remember all of them. I'd be a wealthy author like Tom Clancy.
Putting words into someone's mouth seems to be your Forte. Create your own conspiracy theory, and run with it.

[Robert A Whit]

"What is wrong with democracy that our country could not have a goal for more of it?"
I quoted Reagan in the quotes thread, he mentioned that American should an EXEMPLAR and a BEACON for freedom.
The Neo-Con claim they us to be Grantors, Facilitators and Bulldozers for freedom. But if you dig deeper it's really just an excuse for soft imperialism and profiteering.


There's a few places to look to see why i combine the Kritols , seniou and jr with Chenny and others . they all are for preemptive war in the name of "freedom" and "democracy". interventionism is what it used to be called. And they all believe in BIG gov't and the idea of Nationalist Goals over individual goals and freedoms.

here are a few articles that mention some of it.


http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/defining-neoconservatism/


http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/american-richelieu/

---

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/open-door-policy/

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/gop-should-dump-neocons

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/whats-a-neoconservative/

Reagan Was No Neocon
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/reagan-was-no-neocon
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/cult-presidency


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Bill Kritol says Obama is a Born agian NeoCon after Libya
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6fNur18dlk

Ron Paul speech Neoconned
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aewpvcxAwTk

I don't believe that the so called Neocons believe you shove democracy down a people's throats but if they can keep it and understand it and work to keep it, then one can assist them.

I do not accept your claim about bulldozing, etc.

Sr. Kristol is the acknowledged father of the Neocons. Did you study his book? I doubt you read it. (This of course is not dismissive of others that also played a powerful role in the neocon movement and it's founding)

Sure, he was well educated and so is his son William. Everybody other than Neocons tries to define them but one only need read Irving Kristol's book where he defines himself and his movement.

Speaking of Cheney as a Neocon is like mixing oranges and watermelons. Cheney has a long standing love of freedom and loves helping people be free, yet that does not mean his idea is to rush to war for such matters.

Matter of fact, Cheney is not why the USA went to war in favor of Afghanistan nor defeated Saddam. Sure, Bush listened to all of the advisors, including Cheney, but one must be careful not to blame but one when the opinions of the group in total is what mattered.

You supply links but your analysis is just as faulty as was the intelligence analysis about WMD still in Iraq prior to the war. Actually at least one General in Saddam's air force stated on the record that Saddam had WMD but in a few hours moved them to Syria. Still, CurveBall did us no favors with his lies. But he did Iraq a favor with his lies.

It is said often that a lie will stick and rush around the world where the truth takes a long time and is fought against.

I simply do not see the neocons as much more than an educational group, ala PNAC

You fell for the propaganda put forth by democrats is my comment.

Thanks for the links and I shall peruse them.

[revelarts]

I don't believe that the so called Neocons believe you shove democracy down a people's throats but if they can keep it and understand it and work to keep it, then one can assist them.

I do not accept your claim about bulldozing, etc.

Sr. Kristol is the acknowledged father of the Neocons. Did you study his book? I doubt you read it. (This of course is not dismissive of others that also played a powerful role in the neocon movement and it's founding)

Sure, he was well educated and so is his son William. Everybody other than Neocons tries to define them but one only need read Irving Kristol's book where he defines himself and his movement.

Speaking of Cheney as a Neocon is like mixing oranges and watermelons. Cheney has a long standing love of freedom and loves helping people be free, yet that does not mean his idea is to rush to war for such matters.

Matter of fact, Cheney is not why the USA went to war in favor of Afghanistan nor defeated Saddam. Sure, Bush listened to all of the advisors, including Cheney, but one must be careful not to blame but one when the opinions of the group in total is what mattered.

You supply links but your analysis is just as faulty as was the intelligence analysis about WMD still in Iraq prior to the war. Actually at least one General in Saddam's air force stated on the record that Saddam had WMD but in a few hours moved them to Syria. Still, CurveBall did us no favors with his lies. But he did Iraq a favor with his lies.

It is said often that a lie will stick and rush around the world where the truth takes a long time and is fought against.

I simply do not see the neocons as much more than an educational group, ala PNAC

You fell for the propaganda put forth by democrats is my comment.

Thanks for the links and I shall peruse them.

Many of PNAC "educational group" became gov't officials (again) under Bush and they made much of the PNAC "education" into official policy. How can you say it's Just Educational. Cheney, Rumfiled and Wolfawitz were PART of the PNAC group.

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