“Most Muslims Are Peaceful” (great Video)

[Jeff]

OK I am pressed for time but I am sure this video will explain the difference between the real Muslims and the fake ones , this is to help explain jafar's claims ;) no need to thank me buddy

This video clearly explains the three stages of Islam and answers the question, “But, most Muslims are peaceful, right?!” With quotes from Obama interspersed in this well-done video, you will finally understand exactly what is happening.
I was on a WI conservative radio show this week with a Vicki McKenna. We were agreeing on every issue until I said, “Islam is a Satanic cult.” She fell silent, then disagreed with me, then she hung up on me! I wanted to explain to her that Islam is not just a religion, it is a political and military system. It is a real threat to America and freedom. She is uninformed on this one issue, as is most of America. Fox News doesn’t approach this topic, maybe because it is partly owned by a Muslim.
According to the Hadith, Qur’an and other Muslim commentaries, Stage 1 of Islam is stealth jihad. When a Muslim population is outnumbered, they are taught by Mohammed to move into a society and get along, have a lot of babies, and integrate themselves peacefully into the society. Coexist.

http://libertyalliance.com/2013/08/most-muslims-are-peaceful-great-video/

[red state]

If I could hit the THANKS button FIVE times...I would. Great, truthful video.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it jafar....or simply STICK IT!!!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

OK I am pressed for time but I am sure this video will explain the difference between the real Muslims and the fake ones , this is to help explain jafar's claims ;) no need to thank me buddy

This video clearly explains the three stages of Islam and answers the question, “But, most Muslims are peaceful, right?!” With quotes from Obama interspersed in this well-done video, you will finally understand exactly what is happening.
I was on a WI conservative radio show this week with a Vicki McKenna. We were agreeing on every issue until I said, “Islam is a Satanic cult.” She fell silent, then disagreed with me, then she hung up on me! I wanted to explain to her that Islam is not just a religion, it is a political and military system. It is a real threat to America and freedom. She is uninformed on this one issue, as is most of America. Fox News doesn’t approach this topic, maybe because it is partly owned by a Muslim.
According to the Hadith, Qur’an and other Muslim commentaries, Stage 1 of Islam is stealth jihad. When a Muslim population is outnumbered, they are taught by Mohammed to move into a society and get along, have a lot of babies, and integrate themselves peacefully into the society. Coexist.

http://libertyalliance.com/2013/08/most-muslims-are-peaceful-great-video/
Best video on Islam I've ever seen. Not a single lie in it nor any exaggerations ! That video should be shown in all high schools and universities IMHO. It will not because Islam has already established a special protected status here in our schools and other government controlled organizations. I've pretty much mentioned at one time or another most of the information he presented in that video. I've especially mentioned the deceit and two- face nature of the American Islamists and the fake tolerance shown until they reach a certain percentage of the population. After that they engage in violence. We are in the defensive stage here now. The government and media cover up and downplay muslim attacks on other religions here. Every person here that defends Islam should watch that video. If refusing to do so then they are already showing their hatred of seeking truth , their cowardly commitment to appeasement or else laziness! None of which are redeeming qualities based upon any shred of decent behavior.-Tyr

[red state]

I may actually use this video for our men's class on Sunday evening services. We've been studying other religions and denominations and comparing their beliefs with the ENTIRE Bible. If they don't match up to the GOSPEL, we consider them a false religion......but we, unlike muSLUMS, are tolerant of other's beliefs. This is something that liberals or muSLUMS have nothing to do with and will go out of their way to be hateful, intolerant and even violent. THEY are scum!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I may actually use this video for our men's class on Sunday evening services. We've been studying other religions and denominations and comparing their beliefs with the ENTIRE Bible. If they don't match up to the GOSPEL, we consider them a false religion......but we, unlike muSLUMS, are tolerant of other's beliefs. This is something that liberals or muSLUMS have nothing to do with and will go out of their way to be hateful, intolerant and even violent. THEY are scum!
Since God is TRUTH if you find only TRUTH in it then you should use it IMHO. I KNOW I WOULD FOR I FOUND ONLY THE TRUTH IN THAT VIDEO...-Tyr

[red state]

As the guy said around 21:00, "...if you don't understand....you don't want to understand." That one statement probably singled out the ignorance of the left. And I don't mean the FAR left. Anything even remotely left of CENTER have proven (to me) that they are void of any understanding, commons sense or wisdom. In fact, most of them are PURE evil and attempting to use muSLUMs as pawns to harm Christians. They know little of history and can not see the significance of what they are doing when compared to what happened in the 1930's & 40's.

We know several of them here at DP who claim to be conservative but when pointing out these facts and similarities, the call you a straw man or other insults (without actually debating). I like not having all the liberals who spout off ONE LINERS and their hate filled ignorance. DP has enough pretend Conservatives who are nothing more than liberals to deal with. In the meantime, we'll continue to educate whomever will listen....those "conservatives" who are sick of our "hate speech" can simply tune out or add something more than a ONE LINER.

Great video...I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. I've know the history of muSLUMs for some time now but didn't realize that they actually have a system to follow by which they take over without even firing a shot. I fear and have feared ANY politician who is elected (despite their deep respect or belief in iSLUM) because they WILL....(WILL) get their evil practices made into law....eventually to where we are an iSLUMist state.

[logroller]

Here's what i see progressing as the solution to the muslim problem.
classification: check
symbolization: check
Dehumanization: check
Organization: check
Polarization: in progress
preparation
extermination
denial

[red states rule]

Muslims are very peaceful

Only after they assume room temp

[aboutime]

Thank you for providing the video. It did manage to finally expose the FALSE Prophet/Friendliness offered by jafar. As described in the Quran he so desperately claims speaks of Peace (while we now know) crossed fingers behind their back permits them to pretend they are being friendly, and understanding...while LYING.

[red state]

Jeff, you may have shut jafar up....WOW! If he does show up, I still want to know which countries have REAL muSLUMS cuz all I see is TROUBLE, Trouble, trouble from muSLUM nations as well as nations who allow muSLUMs to dictate laws (other than the laws of the land). We have not yet crossed that line.....YET but the PC agenda of the leftists certainly are trying. jafar, you should be up by now and digesting breakfast with thoughts of what to have for lunch by now so tell us all where the tolerant muSLUMs nations are of other religions and we'll simply say that they may possibly be the muSLUM states that have REAL muSLUMs and not the scum muSLUMs that seem to make up the majority. Perhaps there's an iSLUMist state somewhere around the South Pole that I'm not aware of. HA!!!!

[red state]

The only good muSLUM is a converted or non-believing muSLUM. Strike that....a non-believing muSLUM would make him/her an atheist and we know how vile most of the atheists are. Not all.....but pert near. Of course, that would be because many LEFTISTS are atheists and we all know how well THEY and the muSLUMs work together.

[red states rule]

Jeff, you may have shut jafar up....WOW! If he does show up, I still want to know which countries have REAL muSLUMS cuz all I see is TROUBLE, Trouble, trouble from muSLUM nations as well as nations who allow muSLUMs to dictate laws (other than the laws of the land). We have not yet crossed that line.....YET but the PC agenda of the leftists certainly are trying. jafar, you should be up by now and digesting breakfast with thoughts of what to have for lunch by now so tell us all where the tolerant muSLUMs nations are of other religions and we'll simply say that they may possibly be the muSLUM states that have REAL muSLUMs and not the scum muSLUMs that seem to make up the majority. Perhaps there's an iSLUMist state somewhere around the South Pole that I'm not aware of. HA!!!!

Jafar is like a hemorrhoid

Hangs around and is a pain in the ass

[red state]

Ha! I was about to say that he makes our @$$ itch but I didn't want to speak for everyone else. OOooopppppps, perhaps I just did. :laugh:

[aboutime]

Jafar is like a hemorrhoid

Hangs around and is a pain in the ass


Hope Australia has a good military, armed with Warehouses full of 5369 and Toothbrushes to apply it to jafar's teeth, and gums.5370

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Here's what i see progressing as the solution to the muslim problem.
classification: check
symbolization: check
Dehumanization: check
Organization: check
Polarization: in progress
preparation
extermination
denial Here is what I see progressing as the solution to the Infidel Problem.
Massive Deception: check
Infiltration: check Classification: check
Symbolization: check
Dehumanization: check
Organization: check
Polarization: in progress
Division: in progress
Extermination: in the plan in due time. --The sad part is I am far more spot on about it all than you are.. --Tyr

[red states rule]

Here is what I see progressing as the solution to the Infidel Problem.
Massive Deception: check
Infiltration: check Classification: check
Symbolization: check
Dehumanization: check
Organization: check
Polarization: in progress
Division: in progress
Extermination: in the plan in due time. --The sad part is I am far more spot on about it all than you are.. --Tyr

It is amazing to see the same folks who have zero tolerance towards those who have a different opinion on the role and size of the US government - bend over backwards to defend Muslims who want all of us DEAD!!!!!!!!

[aboutime]

It is amazing to see the same folks who have zero tolerance towards those who have a different opinion on the role and size of the US government - bend over backwards to defend Muslims who want all of us DEAD!!!!!!!!


red states rule. Most of us are more familiar with such Intolerance, and recognize it as a Liberal Double-Standard, backed by Liberal Hypocrisy.

[red states rule]

http://americandigest.org/sidelines/demoncrats.jpg

[logroller]

Here is what I see progressing as the solution to the Infidel Problem.
Massive Deception: check
Infiltration: check Classification: check
Symbolization: check
Dehumanization: check
Organization: check
Polarization: in progress
Division: in progress
Extermination: in the plan in due time. --The sad part is I am far more spot on about it all than you are.. --Tyr
Uh huh. :rolleyes:

Muslims are very peaceful

Only after they assume room temp

[jafar00]

More lies.

[jimnyc]

More lies.

Yep, always lies. Is it a lie that you support Hamas? Or that you refuse to condemn them? Or that the Quran supports terror attacks? Or that you say those who go against the Quran aren't Muslims? I guess half a Muslim is Ok then.

[aboutime]

More lies.


Really jafar? So now. You are telling us the words...taken, and read directly from the Quran are LIES????

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Uh huh. :rolleyes: I had no expectation of agreement from you Log. However when considering the huge numbers of murders worldwide accomplished in the name of Islam I'd expect you would not take such an opposite position as to hold as guilty it's opponents as you do it's radical murdering scum. Refuse to take a stand is better than taking the side of the murdering group. We that oppose Islam have murdered nobody and simply want Islam to stop its murdering and brutally injuring of others. Yet your position seems to make that distinction not be of any merit at all ! This I find to be a massive violation of the principles(both Christian and other) you have stated and held previously. -Tyr

[red state]

jafar LIES....he is one of the REAL muSLUMs. They lie and Allah does not condemn for they lie to "infadels". In other words, they make up the rules as they go cuz that is what mO-Ha-MAD did. There are no good muSLUMs....jafar has had plenty of time to tell us where they are. SO....he and all the lying, violent haters are actually the REAL muSLUMS.....All REALLY bad....ALL really evil.

With a "ONE LINER" and from the horse's mouth....jafar says that all he has said are LIES. I knew it, cuz every time I see your post, I KNOW it is only "more lies"..thanks for being honest for a change, mr. jafar.

[logroller]

I had no expectation of agreement from you Log. However when considering the huge numbers of murders worldwide accomplished in the name of Islam I'd expect you would not take such an opposite position as to hold as guilty it's opponents as you do it's radical murdering scum. Refuse to take a stand is better than taking the side of the murdering group. We that oppose Islam have murdered nobody and simply want Islam to stop its murdering and brutally injuring of others. Yet your position seems to make that distinction not be of any merit at all ! This I find to be a massive violation of the principles(both Christian and other) you have stated and held previously. -Tyr
In the spirit of debate, what fun would agreement be:beer:

"We that oppose Islam"? I didnt realize you speak for all who oppose Islam...so, you can explain the sub-human status of The Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar.

Opposing genocidal methodology does not make me supportive of murderers. Please point me to the Christian tenet of bringing about peace through death. I do believe that the central tenet is rebirth through the everlasting life of Christ, not by "being at room temperature". But you remain coy to such statements....failing to take a stand against what is overt genocidal rhetoric. So tell me, does that mean that you support genocide? I would hope not, but Where's the outrage on Myanmar? You do take a stand against genocide, right?
You claim that all you want is to spread the truth about islam, and if I am to take all your truth as gospel, that the underlying agenda of islam is conversion, subjugation or eradication-- what then?--What's your end-game? Surely its not just knowing its coming, right? Spreading the truth some more isnt going to change their (allegedly) dastardly intentions, is it? At some point, there must be action-- what is it? From what I gather, its to meet Islam overwhelmingly with force, likely through violence. Eliminating the threat Islam poses through its conversion or eradication. Tell me how that's different from the truth about Islam's intentions. Better yet, tell me how that's Christian.

[red state]

Speaking of "MORE LIES", check out the billboard regarding the up and coming vote in my area (where only the towns people will be able to vote).
Vote YES for Alcohol:
More revenue....................................TRUTH: taxes for fighting the increase of crime and more.
More Jobs.........................................TRUTH : More work for police, hospitols and funeral homes.
More Freedom....................................TRUTH: Freedom (unless you live outside the city, pay double taxes and are banned from voting).

__________________________________________________ ____________________________


The Conservative ad sheds the RIGHT light on the subject:
Vote NO Alcohol:
Car from a drunk driver.
more drugs/booze, more crime, taxes, police, accidents, fatalities....nuff said.

This is how it has been and will be (whether LEFTIST or muSLUMS are allowed to take over). Your rights will be drastically limited or done away with altogether. They sneak this stuff on you and know where the votes count. As with my area, this proposal has gone up for vote and defeated numerous times but NOW they have learned that the element of certain groups (within the more slummy parts of our society within cities or towns will trump what the wants of the majority). These certain groups almost always and overwhelmingly so, always vote dimocrat and once their kind of politician gets their foot in the door, they seem to trump the beliefs of others and the Constitution. There will come a time, IF you are allowed to live, you will not be able to vote. Leftists already complain that Christians should not be able to vote because they bring their convictions to the voting booth. Yeah....duh?!! And THEY don't?!

5373

Don't believe the LIES that are usually BIG, posted in large print that leads to a WIDE road to destruction....take the common sense approach that is narrow and even humble YET leads to prosperity and happiness.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

In the spirit of debate, what fun would agreement be:beer:

"We that oppose Islam"? I didnt realize you speak for all who oppose Islam...so, you can explain the sub-human status of The Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar.

Opposing genocidal methodology does not make me supportive of murderers. Please point me to the Christian tenet of bringing about peace through death. I do believe that the central tenet is rebirth through the everlasting life of Christ, not by "being at room temperature". But you remain coy to such statements....failing to take a stand against what is overt genocidal rhetoric. So tell me, does that mean that you support genocide? I would hope not, but Where's the outrage on Myanmar? You do take a stand against genocide, right?
You claim that all you want is to spread the truth about islam, and if I am to take all your truth as gospel, that the underlying agenda of islam is conversion, subjugation or eradication-- what then?--What's your end-game? Surely its not just knowing its coming, right? Spreading the truth some more isnt going to change their (allegedly) dastardly intentions, is it? At some point, there must be action-- what is it? From what I gather, its to meet Islam overwhelmingly with force, likely through violence. Eliminating the threat Islam poses through its conversion or eradication. Tell me how that's different from the truth about Islam's intentions. Better yet, tell me how that's Christian. Consider these biblical admonishments.. We are instructed to oppose evil and even take action against it. That action does not exclude killing those set on destroying others . --Tyr The Biblical Obligation to Preserve Life

We begin by first looking at the Biblical obligation to preserve life. The Bible clearly teaches that we must preserve life--our own lives and the lives of other people. 1 Corinthians 6:19f teaches that our bodies are not our own. Rather, our bodies belong to God. Our bodies are His property and so we are not permitted to treat or destroy them as we please:
19 Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own; 20 for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body. (1Co 6:19-20 ASV)
Not only are we to take care of our bodies and the life contained. We have an obligation to preserve the body and life of other people. Psalm 82:4 even cites an obligation to protect those who are in danger:
Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.
Consider also Proverbs 24:11, which indicates we have a duty to preserve the lives of those who are harming themselves:
Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.
Ezekiel 33 is a well-known passage:
Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'
If you know danger is coming to others, and you deliberately fail to warn the others of the danger, you are guilty of harming the victims. This is not to say that you can make people heed your warning. The surrounding verses also say that if the people refuse to heed the warning of the watchmen, the watchman is not guilty if they are harmed.
We also see principles in Mosaic law teaching that if we fail to guard the lives of others, we are guilty. In Deuteronomy 22:8, if someone falls from your roof, and you failed to install a safety fence around the edge, you would be held liable for the death of that person. Likewise, in Exodus 21:29-31, if a man has an ox which is prone to harm people, the owner is held liable if he fails to confine it and the ox harms or kills others. If the ox harms someone, the negligent owner is fined. If the ox kills someone, the negligent owner is to be put to death.
The principle could hardly be stated more forcefully: you must protect your life and the lives of others.
---And this one--- Judges 9:54 ESV (http://www.biblestudytools.com/esv/judges/9-54.html) English Standard Version (http://www.biblestudytools.com/esv/)
Then he called quickly to the young man his armor-bearer and said to him, "Draw your sword and kill me, lest they say of me, 'A woman killed him.'" And his young man thrust him through, and he died.

[red state]

Note: in the photograph....the mangled car specifically announces what the vote is for. The billboard leads one to believe that the vote is about FREEDOM, JOBS and INCREASED revenue for the county without any mention of ALCOHOL, additional broken homes, more crime and higher taxes to room more drunks and wife beaters.

These muSLUMs do the same...they tell you what they think you want to hear and hide the truth (the knife behind their back that will soon be in yours). jafar says that these MILLIONS (if not BILLIONS) of muSLUMS are not real muSLUMs yet he refuses to inform us (with his infinite knowledge) as to where they are hiding the REAL muSLUMs. They cerainly aren't within all the countries where churches are burned, pastors imprisoned and/or killed, women are tortured, maimed and killed and freedom is suppressed through fear of one's life and/or limb.

Don't believe the lies (MORE LIES) and I'd prefer jafar inform us of ONE nation that treats opposing views as harshly as ALL the muSLUM nations treat Christians, Jews, others and even their own. If the terrorists are doing this then they have a roster greater than the number of citizens in such areas and an agility that puts our fast & ready military to shame when it comes to moving forces around. Truth is....they don't move and they don't rival the local populations within the muSLUM nations cuz they ARE the local population.

[red state]

We VOTE

WE follow CHRIST and when they corrupted the temple, CHRIST made a whip, turned the tables, full of money, over and whipped the crap out of 'em.

IF forced, and if the vote is suppressed or tipped to one's advantage over another, WE START TURNING THE TABLES as Christ did.

Does that answer your question of what a REAL Christian is.....the most manly of men have been Christian. We have turned our cheek and we have given our coats. WE have fed the hungry and fought for the freedoms of others when it profited us nothing and cost us greatly. Just for the sake of debate of course.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Note: in the photograph....the mangled car specifically announces what the vote is for. The billboard leads one to believe that the vote is about FREEDOM, JOBS and INCREASED revenue for the county without any mention of ALCOHOL, additional broken homes, more crime and higher taxes to room more drunks and wife beaters.

These muSLUMs do the same...they tell you what they think you want to hear and hide the truth (the knife behind their back that will soon be in yours). jafar says that these MILLIONS (if not BILLIONS) of muSLUMS are not real muSLUMs yet he refuses to inform us (with his infinite knowledge) as to where they are hiding the REAL muSLUMs. They cerainly aren't within all the countries where churches are burned, pastors imprisoned and/or killed, women are tortured, maimed and killed and freedom is suppressed through fear of one's life and/or limb.

Don't believe the lies (MORE LIES) and I'd prefer jafar inform us of ONE nation that treats opposing views as harshly as ALL the muSLUM nations treat Christians, Jews, others and even their own. If the terrorists are doing this then they have a roster greater than the number of citizens in such areas and an agility that puts our fast & ready military to shame when it comes to moving forces around. Truth is....they don't move and they don't rival the local populations within the muSLUM nations cuz they ARE the local population. I join you in asking Jafar to name one nation out of all the billion plus muslim worldwide where his version of Islam is in operation!!! Lets then examine the Sharia laws of that nation. There are "57 states"(;)) ooppsi ,,,, I mean muslim nations worldwide are there not? Jafar name just one and we will then explore the truth of its current laws.. Can you or will you admit that even one nation does not exist that follows the Koran?-Tyr

[DragonStryk72]

Most muslims are peaceful, actually. However, they are still guilty of the sin of omission, or stated more simply, they are not going against the radicals, and thus, the stain of their sin taints them as well. It isn't enough to just throw in soundbites on talkshows to say "We're peaceful!".

Attempting to disassociate yourself is not taking action against them, it is merely an attempt to save yourself, while allowing the abuse to continue. Christianity is very much a group of philosophical factions, and most of these factions were created when those with a belief against that of the catholic church fought back against that belief in many ways.

While I'll never buy into the conspiracy theories presented, I also must state that the continued silent consent by the Muslim religion at large is not right either. I don't care if you're organizing groups to protest, attempt to reform radical muslims, whatever, but get off your ass and do something! Don't just sit there and keep, "Hey, I'm not with them!"

If your beliefs are so important to you, then show it, and stand against those who are degrading it.

[red state]

That was truly good to read again, Tyr, thank you very much for the following:

Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'

TYR WROTE: "If you know danger is coming to others, and you deliberately fail to warn the others of the danger, you are guilty of harming the victims. This is not to say that you can make people heed your warning. The surrounding verses also say that if the people refuse to heed the warning of the watchmen, the watchman is not guilty if they are harmed."

The sad thing is...the watchman pretty much has to suffer the same fate at those he warned and heeded not the warning with some of those being warned actually WELCOMING the enemy to COME, STEAL and DESTROY.

[red state]

I join you in asking Jafar to name one nation out of all the billion plus muslim worldwide where his version of Islam is in operation!!! Lets then examine the Sharia laws of that nation. There are "57 states"(;)) ooppsi ,,,, I mean muslim nations worldwide are there not? Jafar name just one and we will then explore the truth of its current laws.. Can you or will you admit that even one nation does not exist that follows the Koran?-Tyr

Well, that thar sounds like an official challenge. Hopefully it'll not go unread as my many attempt to do the same have been either overlooked or has frightened the all knowing jafar (last of the REAL muSLUMs). Perhaps ALL the conservatives will demand that jafar answer this question everytime he pipes up with "MORE LIES". as he always does. We don't want more lies from you jafar...we want truth from you but I doubt there is any truth in you (or your cult).

[logroller]

Consider these biblical admonishments.. We are instructed to oppose evil and even take action against it. That action does not exclude killing those set on destroying others . --Tyr The Biblical Obligation to Preserve Life

We begin by first looking at the Biblical obligation to preserve life. The Bible clearly teaches that we must preserve life--our own lives and the lives of other people. 1 Corinthians 6:19f teaches that our bodies are not our own. Rather, our bodies belong to God. Our bodies are His property and so we are not permitted to treat or destroy them as we please:
19 Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own; 20 for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body. (1Co 6:19-20 ASV)
Not only are we to take care of our bodies and the life contained. We have an obligation to preserve the body and life of other people. Psalm 82:4 even cites an obligation to protect those who are in danger:
Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.
Consider also Proverbs 24:11, which indicates we have a duty to preserve the lives of those who are harming themselves:
Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.
Ezekiel 33 is a well-known passage:
Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'
If you know danger is coming to others, and you deliberately fail to warn the others of the danger, you are guilty of harming the victims. This is not to say that you can make people heed your warning. The surrounding verses also say that if the people refuse to heed the warning of the watchmen, the watchman is not guilty if they are harmed.
We also see principles in Mosaic law teaching that if we fail to guard the lives of others, we are guilty. In Deuteronomy 22:8, if someone falls from your roof, and you failed to install a safety fence around the edge, you would be held liable for the death of that person. Likewise, in Exodus 21:29-31, if a man has an ox which is prone to harm people, the owner is held liable if he fails to confine it and the ox harms or kills others. If the ox harms someone, the negligent owner is fined. If the ox kills someone, the negligent owner is to be put to death.
The principle could hardly be stated more forcefully: you must protect your life and the lives of others.
---And this one--- Judges 9:54 ESV (http://www.biblestudytools.com/esv/judges/9-54.html) English Standard Version (http://www.biblestudytools.com/esv/)
Then he called quickly to the young man his armor-bearer and said to him, "Draw your sword and kill me, lest they say of me, 'A woman killed him.'" And his young man thrust him through, and he died.

I asked like twenty questions and you addrssed none with those passages; not to mention that, save 1st Corinthians, all those originate in the hebrew bible. So I fail to see the relevance to my violation of Christian tenets. For example, Did those passages address the dehumanization of others, Or Pacification through violence? it seems to me that the theme of these passages, protecting life, you have have misconstrued to defend destroying the life of others. And Why didn't the armor bearer just protect him from the woman? Why kill him?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I asked like twenty questions and you addrssed none with those passages; not to mention that, save 1st Corinthians, all those originate in the hebrew bible. So I fail to see the relevance to my violation of Christian tenets. For example, Did those passages address the dehumanization of others, Or Pacification through violence? it seems to me that the theme of these passages, protecting life, you have have misconstrued to defend destroying the life of others. And Why didn't the armor bearer just protect him from the woman? Why kill him?
OK, HERE IS ONE JUST FOR YOU MY FRIEND AND IT INVOLVES THE BIG MAN HIMSELF. -Tyr
Christians: Why did Jesus tell Peter to buy a sword? Did Jesus not have a purpose for the sword!??????Luke 22:36
He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. --------------------------------------------- Sorry Log but I am not in the mood to answer 20 questions. We have travelled far enough away from the fact that self-defense and the responsibility to defend the lives of others is both a biblical and a civic/family duty in life. Since the Islamists are hell-bent on murdering all that oppose them the better and larger question is why you judge that the defenders must justify defending while you fail to explain or justify the aggressive and offensive murdering actions of the Islamists. Surely you are not suggesting that we just lay down to be slaughtered!? So if not suggesting that then you should give a course of action we should take just as I have. I say go out and fight . What say yee?-Tyr

[logroller]

OK, HERE IS ONE JUST FOR YOU MY FRIEND AND IT INVOLVES THE BIG MAN HIMSELF. -Tyr
Christians: Why did Jesus tell Peter to buy a sword? Did Jesus not have a purpose for the sword!??????

Luke 22:36
He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. --------------------------------------------- Sorry Log but I am not in the mood to answer 20 questions. We have travelled far enough away from the fact that self-defense and the responsibility to defend the lives of others is both a biblical and a civic/family duty in life. Since the Islamists are hell-bent on murdering all that oppose them the better and larger question is why you judge that the defenders must justify defending while you fail to explain or justify the aggressive and offensive murdering actions of the Islamists. Surely you are not suggesting that we just lay down to be slaughtered!? So if not suggesting that then you should give a course of action we should take just as I have. I say go out and fight . What say yee?-Tyr
I say you should keep reading Luke 22
49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.


51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

then check out Ephesians 6:10-18, New International Version (NIV)
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.


18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.

[jafar00]

I'm sorry but I just switch off as soon as someone starts misquoting the Qur'aan with a condescending, self righteous tone.

But hey, since we are quoting scripture about preserving life, how about the story of Adam's sons, Qabel and Abel (Cain and Abel).

Narrate to them in all truth the story of the two sons of Adam. When they made an offering and it was accepted from one of them and was not accepted from the other, the latter said: 'I will surely kill you.' Thereupon the former said: 'Allah accepts offerings only from the God-fearing. Even if you stretch forth your hand against me to kill, I will not stretch forth my hand to kill you. Surely, I fear Allah, the Lord of the entire universe. I would desire that you be laden with my sin and with your sin, and thus become among the inmates of the Fire. That indeed is the right recompense of the wrong-doers.' At last his evil soul drove him to the murder of his brother, and he killed him, whereby he himself became one of the losers. Thereupon Allah sent forth a raven who began to scratch the earth to show him how he might cover the corpse of his brother. So seeing he cried: 'Woe unto me! Was I unable even to be like this raven and find a way to cover the corpse of my brother? Then he became full of remorse at his doing. Therefore We ordained for the Children of Israel that he who slays a soul unless it be (in punishment) for murder or for spreading mischief on earth shall be as if he had slain all mankind; and he who saves a life shall be as if he had given life to all mankind. And indeed again and again did Our Messengers come to them with clear directives; yet many of them continued to commit excesses on earth. (5:26-32)

[red states rule]

More lies.

With you facts are menace and truth is an enemy. Your solution when anyone speaks the truth about Islam and Muslims is "off with their heads"

[jimnyc]

I'm sorry but I just switch off as soon as someone starts misquoting the Qur'aan with a condescending, self righteous tone.

Who here supports a terror group and refuses to condemn them, but absolves every other scumbag from within Islam as not true Muslims?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I say you should keep reading Luke 22
49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.


51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

then check out Ephesians 6:10-18, New International Version (NIV)
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.


18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. .....................................Jesus did not allow any action that would stop his being sacrificed. The sword was for their protection after he was gone not to protect him because he was meant to be the sacrificial lamb. Read this -Tyr............................................... .................. John 18:10-11
10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant’s name was Malchus.)
11 Jesus commanded Peter, “Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?”

[DragonStryk72]

Who here supports a terror group and refuses to condemn them, but absolves every other scumbag from within Islam as not true Muslims?

Jim, that's not absolution, that's closer to ex-communication, saying that the Jihadists are acting as heresies, to use the Christian variant. The difference is that, because we have the Catholic church, it can openly condemn the heresies and call them for what they are. Islam has no such entity, so there is nothing to rein in the abuses of the scripture, much like if there had been no catholic church to denounce the puritans and their witch-hunts. Jafar is not supporting terror groups. He generally tries to give the other side of the story, yes, because it takes two people to have a real fight.

That said, a person does not have to support jihadists to enable them. See, that's what I was referring to earlier. To switch gears for an analogy, it's like a family who has a violent alcoholic father in it, and while the wife hates the things he does when he's drunk, she doesn't stop him, or remove herself and the kids from the environment, decrying to others that they simply don't understand, that he's a good man deep down, and what could she really do?

It isn't that she supports his drunken violence, but she does enable it by not stopping it.

[jimnyc]

Jafar is not supporting terror groups.

You apparently don't read all of his posts and history then. He OPENLY supports Hamas. Most animals that make Islam look bad he will instantly claim that they are not real Muslims, as they are not following the Quran. Do you think Hamas is following the Quran with their terror attacks and murdering ways? Now ask him if they are not real Muslims. Ask him to completely condemn them as a group. He can't do it. And you need not ask him why, I'll tell you - it's because they spill Jew blood.

[DragonStryk72]

You apparently don't read all of his posts and history then. He OPENLY supports Hamas. Most animals that make Islam look bad he will instantly claim that they are not real Muslims, as they are not following the Quran. Do you think Hamas is following the Quran with their terror attacks and murdering ways? Now ask him if they are not real Muslims. Ask him to completely condemn them as a group. He can't do it. And you need not ask him why, I'll tell you - it's because they spill Jew blood.

He has not supported Hamas. He has, as I said, pointed out that Israel isn't blameless, but then, he's a Muslim living in Australia, so how much bloodshed is he seeing there?

No offense, but even if he did condemn them as a group, Jim, you and I both know that the vast majority on this site would write it off. Any 'debate' where he shows anything other than the want for those people to suffer and die horribly, he gets slammed as a supporter of terror. Now I grant that he doesn't help himself with the devil's advocate routine, but seriously, just look at this thread itself. He's on his heels before he's even IN the debate.

Yeah, I post stuff about how it's not necessarily 100% on Hamas, that Israel has made mistakes out of rage, but then I bring it back to the point that it does not excuse Hamas's actions, or having the destruction of Israel as a part of their country's mission statement.

Everyone has bias for their own group, and you have no further to search than any Rep/Dem debate about Dems praising Obama pulling something that, when Bush did it, the Dems would have been calling for blood.

He wants to see good in the people who share his religion, if not his faith, and that does not make him one of them. He simply does it in the wrong manner, becoming the enabler and apologist, like a parent who keeps saying their child doesn't know any better, and you can see that the child does, but knows as well that he will not be taken to task for it.

[jimnyc]

He has not supported Hamas.

I think when someone says they "lean towards supporting Hamas" it's pretty much the same as saying they support them. Then when you ask them to condemn the group, they refuse. But regardless, leaning towards supporting them IS supporting them. You either support them, or you don't, or you condemn them. Leaning in their direction is supporting them. Like I said, you haven't read it all, or you would have known this already.

[jimnyc]

And saying one supports their struggle, or their fight against the zionists is worthy of support - also openly supporting a terror group.

[jimnyc]

"I'm leaning towards supporting Al Qeada" - "Al Qaeda's struggle against the USA is worthy of support"

Sure, that wouldn't be me supporting a known terror group. :rolleyes:

[Drummond]

He has not supported Hamas. He has, as I said, pointed out that Israel isn't blameless, but then, he's a Muslim living in Australia, so how much bloodshed is he seeing there?

DragonStryk, I disagree. Jafar has supported Hamas, and continues to. He's made his sympathy with their so-called 'cause' clear enough.

I for one have posted a number of times my acknowledgment of that support of his. Can you show me ONE post where Jafar categorically refutes that, whether in answer to me, or anyone else ?

I also challenged Jafar to show that he's ever had a good word to say about Jews. He replied to that, admitting that he'd never posted such a thought or sentiment which was supportive of Jews. Jafar gives me the impression of being perfectly happy with that.

Jafar is, I understand, from Australia .. though he's much travelled. He's been in Egypt, and not too long ago. He also lived in my neck of the woods, the UK, for at least a couple of years (in fact, I discovered that I know both the area in London where he lived quite well, as well as the area where he worked. We even frequented the same Central London pub .. though not at the same time !) !!!

So you see, Jafar has known a number of Muslim communities from a selection of localities across the globe. He will have absorbed, identified with, a cross-section of whatever 'differences' Muslim communities threw up along the way. His observations of, and encounters with, the capacities each have had for 'militancy' can also be expected to be accordingly varied.

[aboutime]

There is one unmentioned, intentional aspect most of us have seen with regard to members like 'jafar'. And that unmentioned aspect is. jafar is following the words of Allah, pretending to befriend many of us, and sounding like he feels as we do about terrorists while....the reality is. jafar, and those like him who obey the words of Allah, secretly, and in many ways...Stealthy actions. Hold that Invisible Knife behind their back, while pretending to shake our hand with the other.
The reason they think they succeed in such actions is due to the DOUBLE-SPEAK words they abide by, and follow in the Quran...they always MUST deny...actually exist.

I do not care where jafar lives, hiding in Australia. Trying to disguise his outright hatred for people like me, and most of us here on this forum.
Like Obama, and the other Race baiting, hate mongers. The terrorist elements around the world depend on the IGNORANCE, and APPEASEMENT of the un-educated, from whom terrorists get the most attention as PEACE LOVING phonies.

[jimnyc]

Can you show me ONE post where Jafar categorically refutes that, whether in answer to me, or anyone else ?

He claims terror attacks, abuse, murder and things like that are against Islam and the Quran, and has repeatedly stated that people involved in such things are therefore not true Muslims. I have asked him outright 99 different ways that if this then makes Hamas non-Muslims, and he refused to give an answer. I asked him 99 different ways if he would condemn their actions, and he has refused to give an answer.

"I think when Al Qaeda blows up children it is wrong, but I support their fight against the West" - sorry, no matter how you slice it or dice it, that would be me supporting a terror group.

[Drummond]

He claims terror attacks, abuse, murder and things like that are against Islam and the Quran, and has repeatedly stated that people involved in such things are therefore not true Muslims. I have asked him outright 99 different ways that if this then makes Hamas non-Muslims, and he refused to give an answer. I asked him 99 different ways if he would condemn their actions, and he has refused to give an answer.

"I think when Al Qaeda blows up children it is wrong, but I support their fight against the West" - sorry, no matter how you slice it or dice it, that would be me supporting a terror group.

Exactly !

And as for .. "I think when Al Qaeda blows up children it is wrong, but I support their fight against the West" this can't be anything else BUT proof of support for a terrorist group. What's more .. since that terrorist group exists to perpetrate terrorist attacks, that it wouldn't exist unless it DID this, and their 'fight' ONLY finds expression through such attacks .. it's more than just supporting a group per se. Supporting what they DO is indivisible from supporting the group.

So I cannot accept Jafar's claims of being against their blowing up of children. If that were true, then the support itself wouldn't exist, in ANY form.

[aboutime]

He claims terror attacks, abuse, murder and things like that are against Islam and the Quran, and has repeatedly stated that people involved in such things are therefore not true Muslims. I have asked him outright 99 different ways that if this then makes Hamas non-Muslims, and he refused to give an answer. I asked him 99 different ways if he would condemn their actions, and he has refused to give an answer.

"I think when Al Qaeda blows up children it is wrong, but I support their fight against the West" - sorry, no matter how you slice it or dice it, that would be me supporting a terror group.


It almost sounds as if jafar would condone different descriptions of murder. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and manslauter, as long as they served a purpose, and the stage of death...wasn't as VIOLENT?????

Reminds me of that old question "Do you STILL beat your wife?"

[red states rule]

.....................................Jesus did not allow any action that would stop his being sacrificed. The sword was for their protection after he was gone not to protect him because he was meant to be the sacrificial lamb. Read this -Tyr............................................... .................. John 18:10-11
10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant’s name was Malchus.)
11 Jesus commanded Peter, “Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?”

Is it me or do libs seem to have more tolerance, and understanding when it comes to terrorists then they do those who have a different opinion on the role and size of government?

Damn, they do bend over backwards to spin terrorists and go out of their way to express their hate and rage if anyone disagrees with their domestic political views

[aboutime]

Is it me or do libs seem to have more tolerance, and understanding when it comes to terrorists then they do those who have a different opinion on the role and size of government?

Damn, they do bend over backwards to spin terrorists and go out of their way to express their hate and rage if anyone disagrees with their domestic political views


red states rule. They (the libs) have another word for that kind of tolerance. It's called 'fairness'. They preach it to everyone. Call it tolerance to justify the terror, even as they defend terrorists, calling them Patriots since they must defend themselves from terrible people like "WE THE PEOPLE".

[red states rule]

red states rule. They (the libs) have another word for that kind of tolerance. It's called 'fairness'. They preach it to everyone. Call it tolerance to justify the terror, even as they defend terrorists, calling them Patriots since they must defend themselves from terrible people like "WE THE PEOPLE".

Fairness to most libs is

Heads they win

Tails you lose

[logroller]

He claims terror attacks, abuse, murder and things like that are against Islam and the Quran, and has repeatedly stated that people involved in such things are therefore not true Muslims. I have asked him outright 99 different ways that if this then makes Hamas non-Muslims, and he refused to give an answer. I asked him 99 different ways if he would condemn their actions, and he has refused to give an answer.

"I think when Al Qaeda blows up children it is wrong, but I support their fight against the West" - sorry, no matter how you slice it or dice it, that would be me supporting a terror group.
I'm not denying the inconsistency of jafar's arguments. I have engaged him with reason, only to see him avoid the blatant contradictions of his beliefs; but I hold not Islam to blame. Anymore than I would reject Christianity for the beliefs of Christians. As ghandi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

How do make peace with the many civilian causalities of war?
Is it not the same thing as "I think that when the righteous kill the innocent it is wrong, but I support the righteous fight against the evil doers." Is that not supporting the killing of innocents?
Indeed-- yet we slice and dice it as necessary to the furtherance of greater good. Indeed I can reflect upon multiple instances throughout history where one ethnic group targets another, committing horrible atrocities. Of course religion comes to mind, but so too have secularists done so. Yet for an abundance of reasons, this is dismissed as irrelevant, because we're different now-- Our campaign is righteous. Perhaps it is, but when i see the identical Methods being employed that were used in previous atrocities, I can't help but speak up and mention what has been done before is far more likely to happen again. that the fervor over those who are upset at the sign of the cross on public lands or soldiers being forbidden from prosthelytizing have a valid point. The cross has been, from its first inception as a symbol of Christianity under Constantine, been used as a unifying symbol to eradicate the jews, Muslims or other savages through forced conversion and death. That while I support the personal right to have a cross around one's neck, so too have they the right to a crescent, Star of David, or even a swastika...but not upon public lands under the banner of righteous freedom. And I don't think I need explain why soldiers should be forbidden from spreading nazi ideologies, any more than muslim-- so why should Christian ideologies be condoned either... Let me guess, they're righteous this time.

[red states rule]

I'm not denying the inconsistency of jafar's arguments. I have engaged him with reason, only to see him avoid the blatant contradictions of his beliefs; but I hold not Islam to blame. Anymore than I would reject Christianity for the beliefs of Christians. As ghandi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

How do make peace with the many civilian causalities of war?
Is it not the same thing as "I think that when the righteous kill the innocent it is wrong, but I support the righteous fight against the evil doers." Is that not supporting the killing of innocents?
Indeed-- yet we slice and dice it as necessary to the furtherance of greater good. Indeed I can reflect upon multiple instances throughout history where one ethnic group targets another, committing horrible atrocities. Of course religion comes to mind, but so too have secularists done so. Yet for an abundance of reasons, this is dismissed as irrelevant, because we're different now-- Our campaign is righteous. Perhaps it is, but when i see the identical Methods being employed that were used in previous atrocities, I can't help but speak up and mention what has been done before is far more likely to happen again. that the fervor over those who are upset at the sign of the cross on public lands or soldiers being forbidden from prosthelytizing have a valid point. The cross has been, from its first inception as a symbol of Christianity under Constantine, been used as a unifying symbol to eradicate the jews, Muslims or other savages through forced conversion and death. That while I support the personal right to have a cross around one's neck, so too have they the right to a crescent, Star of David, or even a swastika...but not upon public lands under the banner of righteous freedom. And I don't think I need explain why soldiers should be forbidden from spreading nazi ideologies, any more than muslim-- so why should Christian ideologies be condoned either... Let me guess, they're righteous this time.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/p480x480/1003726_315891161881335_781805719_n.jpg

[jimnyc]

I'm not denying the inconsistency of jafar's arguments. I have engaged him with reason, only to see him avoid the blatant contradictions of his beliefs; but I hold not Islam to blame. Anymore than I would reject Christianity for the beliefs of Christians. As ghandi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

How do make peace with the many civilian causalities of war?

Bottom line - I don't support murderers nor terror groups and I sure as shit don't lie about such things.

[jafar00]

You apparently don't read all of his posts and history then. He OPENLY supports Hamas. Most animals that make Islam look bad he will instantly claim that they are not real Muslims, as they are not following the Quran. Do you think Hamas is following the Quran with their terror attacks and murdering ways? Now ask him if they are not real Muslims. Ask him to completely condemn them as a group. He can't do it. And you need not ask him why, I'll tell you - it's because they spill Jew blood.

All I support of Hamas is their struggle against Israeli invasions. Who else is fighting for Gazan's basic human rights? The rest of what they do, I don't agree with.


And saying one supports their struggle, or their fight against the zionists is worthy of support - also openly supporting a terror group.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.



I also challenged Jafar to show that he's ever had a good word to say about Jews. He replied to that, admitting that he'd never posted such a thought or sentiment which was supportive of Jews. Jafar gives me the impression of being perfectly happy with that.

Haven't I mentioned my Jewish lawyer and good friend a few times?


He claims terror attacks, abuse, murder and things like that are against Islam and the Quran, and has repeatedly stated that people involved in such things are therefore not true Muslims. I have asked him outright 99 different ways that if this then makes Hamas non-Muslims, and he refused to give an answer. I asked him 99 different ways if he would condemn their actions, and he has refused to give an answer.

"I think when Al Qaeda blows up children it is wrong, but I support their fight against the West" - sorry, no matter how you slice it or dice it, that would be me supporting a terror group.

I will not condemn Hamas as non Muslims, but are they bad? Yes. AQ, and Taliban though are so far from Islam that I have no qualms in saying they are non Muslims. I have never supported AQ. Ever!

[jimnyc]

It almost sounds as if jafar would condone different descriptions of murder. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and manslauter, as long as they served a purpose, and the stage of death...wasn't as VIOLENT?????

Reminds me of that old question "Do you STILL beat your wife?"

I just find it amazing how many times we have heard "they are not true Muslims". Would anyone here disagree with me if he has stated this no less than 100x? And this is talking about individuals who perform deeds he disagrees with. But Hamas, they are fine folks, good upstanding citizens AND Muslims, members of the "religion of peace" who he has OUTRIGHT stated he doesn't condemn. Any wonder why the Islamic world is so fucked up and frowned upon by the entire world?

[red state]

Well, I'd say that someone needs to post some sort of segment about ALL the muSLUM nations that are hate filled, tyrants who imprison, harass and/or kill those simply because they had opposing views but the easier thing to do would be to post all the REAL muSLUM nations who are friendly to opposing views an promote freedom....GOOSE EGG!!!! I can't think of one and neither can jafar. I have never placed anyone on ignore but I refuse to read his posts until he answers questions that most of us seem to have asked. It is obvious that we are all sick of his lies and continual use of the phrase: "....they are not REAL muSLUMS...". That just doesn't cut it and he must be stupid enough to think we are as stupid as the leftists.

[aboutime]

All I support of Hamas is their struggle against Israeli invasions. Who else is fighting for Gazan's basic human rights? The rest of what they do, I don't agree with.



One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.



Haven't I mentioned my Jewish lawyer and good friend a few times?



I will not condemn Hamas as non Muslims, but are they bad? Yes. AQ, and Taliban though are so far from Islam that I have no qualms in saying they are non Muslims. I have never supported AQ. Ever!


jafar. Mentioning your Jewish lawyer to us, is much like many of our really bigoted, racist Americans who brag about having Black friends they work with. And, when out of sight of any Black people. They sound as BIGOTED, and Hateful as your attempt...using your Friend the Lawyer.
It just doesn't FLY here jafar.
Now....think of some other excuses/lies you haven't already used.

[Drummond]

All I support of Hamas is their struggle against Israeli invasions. Who else is fighting for Gazan's basic human rights? The rest of what they do, I don't agree with.

So tell me, Jafar. This 'struggle' Hamas indulges in. Just HOW do they engage in that 'struggle' ?

Answer: THEY COMMIT TERRORIST ACTS AGAINST INNOCENTS !!!

If you support that 'struggle', Jafar, you're doing nothing less than supporting terrorism. Hamas, like Al Qaeda, ARE A TERRORIST GROUP, WHOSE REASON TO EXIST IS TO COMMIT SUCH ACTS.

Consider:

https://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm


The Islamic Resistance Movement, also known as the HAMAS,

is an extremist fundamentalist Islamic organization operating in the

territories under Israeli control. Its Covenant is a comprehensive

manifesto comprised of 36 separate articles, all of which promote the

basic HAMAS goal of destroying the State of Israel through Jihad

(Islamic Holy War).

You want to support Hamas, Jafar ? Then THIS is what you're supporting. Considering what their central aim is .. which is far from just 'defensive', obviously ! - it's rather hard to see how they can be anything BUT terrorists.

Here's a little more for you ... a further taste of your 'supportable' Hamas ...


The following are excerpts of the HAMAS -

Covenant:Goals of the HAMAS -

'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life isIslam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.' (Article 6)

On the Destruction of Israel -

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)
Not defensive at ALL, is it ? Utterly belligerent, in fact. We see from this how Hamas views its alliegance to Islam.

There's just no getting away from it. Hamas are terrorists, their central focus is on seeing Israel 'obliterated'. This is WAY more than 'just defending Gaza'.


One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Pure cop-out.

And Hamas itself offers proof that you're wrong. Jafar, answer me this: what role, consistent with 'freedom fighting', is served by being dedicated to the wiping-out of an internationally-recognised Nation State, and THIS - let's be honest, here - just to further race hatred ??


Haven't I mentioned my Jewish lawyer and good friend a few times?

You've been answered already on that one, and answered well.


I will not condemn Hamas as non Muslims, but are they bad? Yes.

... and ... 'One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.' Jafar, your definition of 'bad' is flexible, to say the very least.

If you won't condemn Hamas as non-Muslims, you must surely agree with the way Hamas views its duty under Islam ?? And what IS that duty, in their eyes ?

IT'S TO WAGE JIHADIST WAR AGAINST ISRAEL.

And we know how they do it, Jafar. Through acts of terrorism. By efforts made to slaughter innocents.


AQ, and Taliban though are so far from Islam that I have no qualms in saying they are non Muslims. I have never supported AQ. Ever!

My only answer (.. or anyway, the only one I have patience enough to offer you right now) is to ask whether Hamas agrees with you. After all, THEIR METHODOLOGY IS THE SAME.

Here's an example, Jafar, of how much 'better' Hamas is than Al Qaeda, or the Taliban ...

http://www.cija.ca/hamas/video-hamas-terrorist-hides-behind-white-flag-gaza/

I invite you to reach the only reasonable conclusion, and to concede its correctness. Namely, that Hamas terrorists are cowardly VERMIN.

[Drummond]

Adding this, for Jafar's perusal ...

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3629/hamas-terrorists


Hamas leaders are working hard these days to have their movement removed from the U.S. State Department list for Foreign Terrorist Organizations.

The Hamas leaders are hoping to persuade a number of European Union countries to support their bid.

Hamas wants to be removed from the list without changing its strategy or charter, which call for jihad [holy war] and which do not recognize Israel's right to exist.

Hamas is also not prepared to dismantle its armed group, Izaddin al-Kassam, as part of its effort to persuade the US and EU to drop it from the list of terrorist groups.

Nor is Hamas prepared to stop smuggling weapons or give up thousands of rockets and mortars that it possesses in various parts of the Gaza Strip.

And of course Hamas is not prepared to renounce violence in the context of its effort to seek legitimacy in the international community.

The Hamas initiative comes at a time when senior officials of the movement, including Khaled Mashaal, continue to talk about their dream of replacing Israel with an Islamic state. In addition, they are continuing to call on Palestinians to abide by the "armed resistance" as the only option for achieving their goal.

Ironically, the Hamas request to be removed from the list of terrorist groups coincides with reports about the Islamist movement's involvement in terror activities in neighboring Egypt.

According to these reports, Hamas was behind the August 2012 killing of 16 Egyptian border guards in Sinai. Hamas has also dispatched thousands of its men to Cairo to protect Muslim Brotherhood President Mohamed Morsi against his political opponents, the reports revealed.

Although Hamas has denied the reports, there are increased signs that the movement is cooperating with other Islamic fundamentalist groups in Sinai to turn the peninsula into a base for jihadists from different parts of the world. Some of these jihadists are believed to be linked to groups that are affiliated with Al-Qaeda.

Tell us, Jafar, that your support for Hamas remains undiminished in the face of this. Also remind us of the 'difference' between Hamas and Al Qaeda.

And please, remind us again that 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter'.

[jafar00]

Drummond,

Hamas is fighting a war pf politics, and control of land and resources. There is no holy command in Islam to wage war against Israel.

Remember, the people crammed into Gaza like a concentration camp used to live all over what they now call Israel and they were free to live their lives and produce goods for export, work and live happy and productive lives before that was shattered in the 1948 invasion. You may call lobbing rockets over the border, terrorism but I see it as defending themselves against an aggressive invader who has brutalised them for generations.

[logroller]

Drummond,

Hamas is fighting a war pf politics, and control of land and resources. There is no holy command in Islam to wage war against Israel.


WHAT? Seriously, have you not read the Hamas charter?
Its rife with Islamic defense of its movement. For example, the title, articles 1,2,3,4...

Time and Place Extent of the Islamic Resistance Movement:


Article Five:


Time extent of the Islamic Resistance Movement: By adopting Islam as its way of life, the Movement goes back to the time of the birth of the Islamic message, of the righteous ancestor, for Allah is its target, the Prophet is its example and the Koran is its constitution. Its extent in place is anywhere that there are Moslems who embrace Islam as their way of life everywhere in the globe. This being so, it extends to the depth of the earth and reaches out to the heaven.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
Bad things, ie not peaceful things, tend to happen when you mix religion and politics.

[Drummond]

Hamas is fighting a war pf politics

If Hamas is 'fighting a war of politics', they're doing it in a very 'Al Qaeda' sort of way.

Would Al Qaeda claim the same about their 9/11 attacks ??

Saying this, Jafar, amounts to an effort to sanitise terrorism. This is no less than completely offensive.


.. and control of land and resources.

You speak as though Palestinians have had recognition of Statehood across the world. In fact, they have nothing of the kind.

Gaza, Jafar, is itself a hotbed of terrorism. They voted TERRORISTS in power to rule them !! So just how 'innocent' is the population as a whole ?


There is no holy command in Islam to wage war against Israel.

Take that up with Hamas. Judging by their Charter, they'd completely disagree with you.

Here, check this out:-


The Call to Jihad:

'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation,it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)

'Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about.'(Article 33)

Charming, eh, Jafar ? Gives one a 'warm, fuzzy feeling' about them, wouldn't you say ? Don't they sound like the sort of people you feel you'd like to invite round for tea and scones ? Perhaps even to introduce to your favourite mother-in-law ?


Remember, the people crammed into Gaza like a concentration camp used to live all over what they now call Israel and they were free to live their lives and produce goods for export, work and live happy and productive lives before that was shattered in the 1948 invasion.

Translation: ISRAEL HAS NO RIGHT TO EXIST.

... Correct ?

Yes, and Hamas has just the answer for that. As do other Islamic terrorist groups. As did Ahmadinejad.


You may call lobbing rockets over the border, terrorism

CORRECT - THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS.


but I see it as defending themselves against an aggressive invader who has brutalised them for generations.

So tell me, just how 'nicely' do you demand that terrorists and their enablers are thought of, and treated ?

Israel is no invader. They have an historic claim to live in that part of the world, one further legitimised by the United Nations in 1948. They have a total right to exist as a Nation State. However, Hamas, as the terrorist scum that they are, want only to see Israel obliterated.

Their Charter positively reeks with bloodlust, directed towards exactly that aim. THEIRS IS NOT A DEFENSIVE POSITION BUT A PURELY BELLIGERENT ONE.

[red states rule]

All I support of Hamas is their struggle against Israeli invasions. Who else is fighting for Gazan's basic human rights? The rest of what they do, I don't agree with.



One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.



Haven't I mentioned my Jewish lawyer and good friend a few times?



I will not condemn Hamas as non Muslims, but are they bad? Yes. AQ, and Taliban though are so far from Islam that I have no qualms in saying they are non Muslims. I have never supported AQ. Ever!


http://www.israellycool.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/hamas-armor.jpg

[red states rule]

Drummond,

Hamas is fighting a war pf politics, and control of land and resources. There is no holy command in Islam to wage war against Israel.

Remember, the people crammed into Gaza like a concentration camp used to live all over what they now call Israel and they were free to live their lives and produce goods for export, work and live happy and productive lives before that was shattered in the 1948 invasion. You may call lobbing rockets over the border, terrorism but I see it as defending themselves against an aggressive invader who has brutalised them for generations.


http://letterstoadyingdream.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/070514hamaskinder-x.gif

[Gaffer]

Drummond,

Hamas is fighting a war pf politics, and control of land and resources. There is no holy command in Islam to wage war against Israel.

Remember, the people crammed into Gaza like a concentration camp used to live all over what they now call Israel and they were free to live their lives and produce goods for export, work and live happy and productive lives before that was shattered in the 1948 invasion. You may call lobbing rockets over the border, terrorism but I see it as defending themselves against an aggressive invader who has brutalised them for generations.

I can't believe you just stated that. Drummond has already taken you apart so I don't need to go into that any further other than to add; AQ, hamas, and I can't even pronounce or spell the many others organizations in the area are all part of and under the general umbrella of the muslim brotherhood. The same MB that has instigated a civil war in syria, starting one in egypt and lybia, Keeping things stirred up in yemen and the other arab countries.

Not to mention turkey which has just imprisoned most of it's high ranking military officers. A purge so to speak that I'm surprised hasn't made big news and really upset NATO.

Firing thousands of rockets at towns and people is not defending ones self. It is aggressive assault. Then claiming the ones you attacked are attacking you unprovoked because they retaliate is just out right lying.

You can't eat a small piece of cake and say it is very good and condemn the rest of the cake as not truly cake. In for a penny, in for a pound. You are a prime example of why I trust no muslim. No matter how friendly they may seem.

[Jeff]

Well, I'd say that someone needs to post some sort of segment about ALL the muSLUM nations that are hate filled, tyrants who imprison, harass and/or kill those simply because they had opposing views but the easier thing to do would be to post all the REAL muSLUM nations who are friendly to opposing views an promote freedom....GOOSE EGG!!!! I can't think of one and neither can jafar. I have never placed anyone on ignore but I refuse to read his posts until he answers questions that most of us seem to have asked. It is obvious that we are all sick of his lies and continual use of the phrase: "....they are not REAL muSLUMS...". That just doesn't cut it and he must be stupid enough to think we are as stupid as the leftists.

And jafar still hasn't thanked me for showing the difference of the different Muslims, I guess he liked it better the way he did it

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Folks do not think Jafar is alone in his refusal to condemn Islamic terrorists because he is not. He is well in with the majority of muslims around the world but those muslims are not speaking out . Jafar does speak out and we get to see how absolutely convinced most muslims are that Terrorism (namely Jihad) is legitimate and a necessary action that is commanded by Allah. Any action engaged in that advances the Islamic cause not matter how despicable and dastardly is allowed and even commanded by the Koran. Yet they use the fact that the muslims in USA haven't went all "radical" to promote the lie that Islam is a peaceful religion. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am convinced that is why they haven't stirred and commanded on a wholesale basis for the muslims here to go all Jihad on us!! The propaganda value of not doing so is just too great and they do not want to risk an all out fight with us because -WE HAVE GUNS- and a great many Americans are like me ,born and trained to use those guns as easily as most people use a knife, fork and spoon! Remember they don't start that crap on a large scale until their population hits a certain percentage of the total population in a country. I urge yet again for all to study what and how they have taken control in Britain. In 10/15 years Britain is almost certainly to have a muslim government and Sharia law! They've already yielded to allowing Sharia courts for the muslims there! The damn shame is if we do not wake up to the truth and take action we face the slaughter of our kids and grandkids in the near future here! Every nation has held this, --No not here , Such can never happen here! History has numerous examples and in each one the cry of "never here" was dead wrong!!!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Think back to our response and resolve immediately after 9/11 . Now did you think back then that Al Qaeda could ever just issue a threat and force us to close all those embassies and run away like cowards!???? What Obama did was actually an act of treason IMHO. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- HE IS CHARGED BY LAW AND OATH OF OFFICE TO DEFEND THIS NATION AND INSTEAD HE CHOSE TO RUN AWAY AND THUS GIVE OUR ENEMIES A MUCH NEEDED MORAL BOOST AND RECRUITING TOOL!-Tyr

[Gaffer]

Here he is again.

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/xZ5Bwj3iTrg" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

jafar will hate this because he uses a lot of the same talking points as ABC.

[Drummond]

Folks do not think Jafar is alone in his refusal to condemn Islamic terrorists because he is not. He is well in with the majority of muslims around the world but those muslims are not speaking out . Jafar does speak out and we get to see how absolutely convinced most muslims are that Terrorism (namely Jihad) is legitimate and a necessary action that is commanded by Allah. Any action engaged in that advances the Islamic cause not matter how despicable and dastardly is allowed and even commanded by the Koran. Yet they use the fact that the muslims in USA haven't went all "radical" to promote the lie that Islam is a peaceful religion. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am convinced that is why they haven't stirred and commanded on a wholesale basis for the muslims here to go all Jihad on us!! The propaganda value of not doing so is just too great and they do not want to risk an all out fight with us because -WE HAVE GUNS- and a great many Americans are like me ,born and trained to use those guns as easily as most people use a knife, fork and spoon! Remember they don't start that crap on a large scale until their population hits a certain percentage of the total population in a country. I urge yet again for all to study what and how they have taken control in Britain. In 10/15 years Britain is almost certainly to have a muslim government and Sharia law! They've already yielded to allowing Sharia courts for the muslims there! The damn shame is if we do not wake up to the truth and take action we face the slaughter of our kids and grandkids in the near future here! Every nation has held this, --No not here , Such can never happen here! History has numerous examples and in each one the cry of "never here" was dead wrong!!!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Think back to our response and resolve immediately after 9/11 . Now did you think back then that Al Qaeda could ever just issue a threat and force us to close all those embassies and run away like cowards!???? What Obama did was actually an act of treason IMHO. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- HE IS CHARGED BY LAW AND OATH OF OFFICE TO DEFEND THIS NATION AND INSTEAD HE CHOSE TO RUN AWAY AND THUS GIVE OUR ENEMIES A MUCH NEEDED MORAL BOOST AND RECRUITING TOOL!-Tyr:clap::clap::clap::clap:

I absolutely echo Tyr's post. Most particularly the part of it which refers to the UK as an example of the extent of Muslim influence in the UK.

They may not have actually 'taken over' here ... quite yet ! HOWEVER, more and more concessions are made to Muslims here. It's done by creeping degrees, by a mixture of deferential laxness of border controls, and, once the influx of immigrants becomes a flood and entire communities spring up, then by further deferring to all their 'cultural' demands on the back of being accused of racism if you dare not give in !!

If a terrorist atrocity happens, be it the '7/7' attack in London in 2005, or the far more recent murder of Drummer Lee Rigby .. this is just sidelined by reports which say that Muslim 'extremists' were at work. Great efforts are made to ALWAYS differentiate between the 'extremism' of those who terrorise, compared with the so-called 'peaceful majority', who, it is always claimed, are very far removed from the attackers.

And so it continues. More incursions, more attacks. Yet, 'NEVER' is it recognised that Islam and its practitioners are themselves the problem ! For the sake of political correctness, and the need to be seen to be 'enlightened', so the dots are NEVER joined .. and the problem in its entirety is NEVER addressed.

More incursions, more attacks. No means seemingly exists for the British public to wake from their stupor, while we have politicians and the media collaborating on their 'Islam is a religion of peace' line (.. not least Boris Johnson, Conservative London mayor, who's dependent on getting the Muslim vote if he wants to be elected in future !). And even if they DID awaken ... very few British citizens own guns. Power rests in the hands of the authorities who side with the Muslims ....

Obama refuses to adopt a 'America is a Christian country' posture, doesn't he ? Obama further looks for ways to limit gun ownership. Anyone care to join some dots about all that, in a way that the politically-correct UK, led by the nose by Socialist social engineering, apparently CANNOT do .. ??

Do so. WHILE YOU STILL CAN.

[red state]

And jafar still hasn't thanked me for showing the difference of the different Muslims, I guess he liked it better the way he did it

JEFF, that muSLUM/terrorist wanna-be is simply a narrow minded liar who continues to play his same ole broken record in hopes that some of us are the weak minded little $#!Ts that have ruined this country and will welcome in the muSLUMS to slit their children's (and our children's) throats! What is scary is that he may actually be more than a muSLUM/terrorist wanna-be.....he does go to many places and may be in the land down under to spread even more radicalism. What a piece of $#!T in a cult of PIECE....an head here....a head there.

TYR, you are spot on (as usual) but I'd like to remind you of the muSLUMs in Dearborn, Michegan. They have practically taken over there and it may very well be the first muSLUM State in our union if thing persist. They'll start with the weak minded little $#!Ts of our blue states and all four coasts and work their way to the middle (the Bible Belt and the Heart Land) because we are the REAL Americans who started, fought for and preserved this GREAT Christian Nation where ALL are welcome to worship as they feel right. Our clinging to guns, Bible and GOD has kept us from sinking down the sewer as the weak minded little $#!Ts in blue states and they want us to follow their lead (NOT A FRIGGIN' CHANCE)!

Drummond, it is sad that the UK has sank so low from the heights they once dominated as a NAVY and GROUND FORCE. Even their Air fighting capabilities have been one of the world's BEST but, ya'll have given way (LONG AGO) to the same PC BULL$#!T that we ware given in to. ALL the once great nations can attribute their demise (NOT FROM OUR OUTSIDE ENEMIES) but from the enemy WITHIN!!!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

I absolutely echo Tyr's post. Most particularly the part of it which refers to the UK as an example of the extent of Muslim influence in the UK.

They may not have actually 'taken over' here ... quite yet ! HOWEVER, more and more concessions are made to Muslims here. It's done by creeping degrees, by a mixture of deferential laxness of border controls, and, once the influx of immigrants becomes a flood and entire communities spring up, then by further deferring to all their 'cultural' demands on the back of being accused of racism if you dare not give in !!

If a terrorist atrocity happens, be it the '7/7' attack in London in 2005, or the far more recent murder of Drummer Lee Rigby .. this is just sidelined by reports which say that Muslim 'extremists' were at work. Great efforts are made to ALWAYS differentiate between the 'extremism' of those who terrorise, compared with the so-called 'peaceful majority', who, it is always claimed, are very far removed from the attackers.

And so it continues. More incursions, more attacks. Yet, 'NEVER' is it recognised that Islam and its practitioners are themselves the problem ! For the sake of political correctness, and the need to be seen to be 'enlightened', so the dots are NEVER joined .. and the problem in its entirety is NEVER addressed.

More incursions, more attacks. No means seemingly exists for the British public to wake from their stupor, while we have politicians and the media collaborating on their 'Islam is a religion of peace' line (.. not least Boris Johnson, Conservative London mayor, who's dependent on getting the Muslim vote if he wants to be elected in future !). And even if they DID awaken ... very few British citizens own guns. Power rests in the hands of the authorities who side with the Muslims ....

Obama refuses to adopt a 'America is a Christian country' posture, doesn't he ? Obama further looks for ways to limit gun ownership. Anyone care to join some dots about all that, in a way that the politically-correct UK, led by the nose by Socialist social engineering, apparently CANNOT do .. ??

Do so. WHILE YOU STILL CAN. :beer: :clap: :beer:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

JEFF, that muSLUM/terrorist wanna-be is simply a narrow minded liar who continues to play his same ole broken record in hopes that some of us are the weak minded little $#!Ts that have ruined this country and will welcome in the muSLUMS to slit their children's (and our children's) throats! What is scary is that he may actually be more than a muSLUM/terrorist wanna-be.....he does go to many places and may be in the land down under to spread even more radicalism. What a piece of $#!T in a cult of PIECE....an head here....a head there.

TYR, you are spot on (as usual) but I'd like to remind you of the muSLUMs in Dearborn, Michegan. They have practically taken over there and it may very well be the first muSLUM State in our union if thing persist. They'll start with the weak minded little $#!Ts of our blue states and all four coasts and work their way to the middle (the Bible Belt and the Heart Land) because we are the REAL Americans who started, fought for and preserved this GREAT Christian Nation where ALL are welcome to worship as they feel right. Our clinging to guns, Bible and GOD has kept us from sinking down the sewer as the weak minded little $#!Ts in blue states and they want us to follow their lead (NOT A FRIGGIN' CHANCE)!

Drummond, it is sad that the UK has sank so low from the heights they once dominated as a NAVY and GROUND FORCE. Even their Air fighting capabilities have been one of the world's BEST but, ya'll have given way (LONG AGO) to the same PC BULL$#!T that we ware given in to. ALL the once great nations can attribute their demise (NOT FROM OUR OUTSIDE ENEMIES) but from the enemy WITHIN!!! You are dead on accurate . A good informative post. A word of advice if I may. Next time put a little more passion into it!! ;)--Tyr

[Drummond]

:beer: :clap: :beer:

Thanks, Tyr !! Tried to add reputation for you, but I'm currently being blocked from doing so (I need to 'spread some around' first, apparently ..).:beer::beer:

[red states rule]

All I support of Hamas is their struggle against Israeli invasions. Who else is fighting for Gazan's basic human rights? The rest of what they do, I don't agree with.



One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.



Haven't I mentioned my Jewish lawyer and good friend a few times?



I will not condemn Hamas as non Muslims, but are they bad? Yes. AQ, and Taliban though are so far from Islam that I have no qualms in saying they are non Muslims. I have never supported AQ. Ever!

Why am I not surprised you support the bastards that slaughter unarmed women, and children?

Is this a pic out of your family photo album Bomb Boy?


http://samsonblinded.org/news/wp-content/uploads/HLIC/3d8bf1fec691db24ef7efca7ce8a0e99.jpg

[jafar00]

I imagine if your country was invaded and you were brutalised for over 60 years, you would also be lobbing rockets at them too. None of you stopped to think about that. Would none of you fight for your homes? Would none of you fight for your rights?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I imagine if your country was invaded and you were brutalised for over 60 years, you would also be lobbing rockets at them too. None of you stopped to think about that. Would none of you fight for your homes? Would none of you fight for your rights? --------------------------------------------=- Since when is fighting for a just cause the use of terrorist tactics? The indiscriminate bombing of innocent civilians and deliberate murder of innocent women and children!?? No sir, you do not get to pretend that evil acts are honorable and just a necessary method to regain lost land. So apparent that the act of terrorism means nothing to you. That you think any past wrong justifies it. Well any real American says that's a lot of dumbass bullshat. We don't play that way and have spent huge amount of blood and treasure all over the world proving that we don't. When we get that damn muslim-in-hiding out of the Presidency we will show the world yet again such justice.. That ffing scum doesn't get to stay there forever you know. -Tyr

[Gaffer]

I imagine if your country was invaded and you were brutalised for over 60 years, you would also be lobbing rockets at them too. None of you stopped to think about that. Would none of you fight for your homes? Would none of you fight for your rights?

No one has been brutalized, unless you count the Israelis who were victims or the pal children used as shields.

Lobbying rockets at towns and innocent people is not fighting. Doing it from a school yard so the retaliation causes the most innocent casualties is just plain evil.

I would not lob rockets at people no matter how much I hated them, any more than I would set off IED's to cause casualties of people passing by. That's not fighting for your home, it's simple murder of a people you don't like. It's really quite easy to see without the blinders of islam.

You support an evil terrorist organization, so you have no credibility here.

[Drummond]

I imagine if your country was invaded and you were brutalised for over 60 years, you would also be lobbing rockets at them too. None of you stopped to think about that. Would none of you fight for your homes? Would none of you fight for your rights?

Tyr's already given you a great answer. But mine is ... what do you mean by 'your country' ?

I thought I'd already covered this ? Israel has legitimate claim to Statehood, this internationally recognised and sanctioned at its inception by the United Nations. BUT, JAFAR, NONE OF THIS CAN BE CLAIMED FOR THE PEOPLE YOU'RE THINKING OF.

So I ask again, what do you mean by 'your country' ?

If a band of gypsies settle on a plot of land, do they have the right, after some time has passed, to declare UDI and say that the territory they've marked out as theirs becomes 'their country' .. ?

Maybe Muslims really DO have the 'right' to declare those parts of London where they're most numerous to be 'Sharia Zones', and try to run them like separate pocket-States divorced from the rest of the UK, then .. just because they're feeling belligerent enough to try it ? WOULD YOU ARGUE FOR THAT, JAFAR (.. silly question, eh ..) ?

As if all of that isn't ludicrous enough, the 'people' you want to defend opt for terrorism. To brutally slaughter as many innocent citizens of the LEGITIMATE State as takes their fancy.

NO, JAFAR - YOU TRY TO DEFEND THE TOTALLY INDEFENSIBLE. Your defence of Hamas to ANY extent is completely unacceptable.

The only fitting fate for Hamas is its extermination. They never renounce violence, and are committed to a Jihadist war for the destruction of Israel which THEY - even if you refute its legitimacy in terms of Islam itself, Jafar - DO assert to be fully justified by Islam, and in the furtherance of that religion. The Hamas Charter makes that abundantly clear.

They are murderous scum. If or when Israel destroys Hamas, I for one will cheer them on.

[Drummond]

No one has been brutalized, unless you count the Israelis who were victims or the pal children used as shields.

Lobbying rockets at towns and innocent people is not fighting. Doing it from a school yard so the retaliation causes the most innocent casualties is just plain evil.

I would not lob rockets at people no matter how much I hated them, any more than I would set off IED's to cause casualties of people passing by. That's not fighting for your home, it's simple murder of a people you don't like. It's really quite easy to see without the blinders of islam.

You support an evil terrorist organization, so you have no credibility here.:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[Drummond]

--------------------------------------------=- Since when is fighting for a just cause the use of terrorist tactics? The indiscriminate bombing of innocent civilians and deliberate murder of innocent women and children!?? No sir, you do not get to pretend that evil acts are honorable and just a necessary method to regain lost land. So apparent that the act of terrorism means nothing to you. That you think any past wrong justifies it. Well any real American says that's a lot of dumbass bullshat. We don't play that way and have spent huge amount of blood and treasure all over the world proving that we don't. When we get that damn muslim-in-hiding out of the Presidency we will show the world yet again such justice.. That ffing scum doesn't get to stay there forever you know. -Tyr

:clap::clap::clap::clap:Brilliant from start to finish ! :beer:

[Noir]

So are we all agreed that anyone who thinks they have a Muslim friend is mistaken, for all Muslims are just pretending to be friends?

[tailfins]

So are we all agreed that anyone who thinks they have a Muslim Corporate executive friend is mistaken, for all Muslims Corporate executives are just pretending to be friends?

Fixed it for ya'! And the answer to the revised question is "yes".

[jafar00]

No one has been brutalized, unless you count the Israelis who were victims or the pal children used as shields.

Lobbying rockets at towns and innocent people is not fighting. Doing it from a school yard so the retaliation causes the most innocent casualties is just plain evil.

I would not lob rockets at people no matter how much I hated them, any more than I would set off IED's to cause casualties of people passing by. That's not fighting for your home, it's simple murder of a people you don't like. It's really quite easy to see without the blinders of islam.

You support an evil terrorist organization, so you have no credibility here.

That's the Israeli position. Palestine never existed and nor did it's people.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

And it is complete nonsense.


Tyr's already given you a great answer. But mine is ... what do you mean by 'your country' ?

I thought I'd already covered this ? Israel has legitimate claim to Statehood, this internationally recognised and sanctioned at its inception by the United Nations. BUT, JAFAR, NONE OF THIS CAN BE CLAIMED FOR THE PEOPLE YOU'RE THINKING OF.

So I ask again, what do you mean by 'your country' ?

Who lived in "Israel" before the Zionist invasion?

What I mean by "your country" is the place where you live. If a foreign aggressor came and turfed you out of your home and gave you the least productive part of a desert to live in, wouldn't you fight back? Or would you graciously accept being put into a concentration camp for the rest of your life and the lives of your descendants?

Nobody here ever answers that question. Ever.


If a band of gypsies settle on a plot of land, do they have the right, after some time has passed, to declare UDI and say that the territory they've marked out as theirs becomes 'their country' .. ?

Case in point, the Jews in Palestine. The Zionists were making settlements way before the UN folly of creating Israel out of thin air occurred.


Maybe Muslims really DO have the 'right' to declare those parts of London where they're most numerous to be 'Sharia Zones', and try to run them like separate pocket-States divorced from the rest of the UK, then .. just because they're feeling belligerent enough to try it ? WOULD YOU ARGUE FOR THAT, JAFAR (.. silly question, eh ..) ?

No, they are completely wrong both from the point of view of simple humanity and from the position of Islam. Lock them up.


As if all of that isn't ludicrous enough, the 'people' you want to defend opt for terrorism. To brutally slaughter as many innocent citizens of the LEGITIMATE State as takes their fancy.

NO, JAFAR - YOU TRY TO DEFEND THE TOTALLY INDEFENSIBLE. Your defence of Hamas to ANY extent is completely unacceptable.

The only fitting fate for Hamas is its extermination. They never renounce violence, and are committed to a Jihadist war for the destruction of Israel which THEY - even if you refute its legitimacy in terms of Islam itself, Jafar - DO assert to be fully justified by Islam, and in the furtherance of that religion. The Hamas Charter makes that abundantly clear.

They are murderous scum. If or when Israel destroys Hamas, I for one will cheer them on.

Everyone misunderstands my position on Hamas here. I wouldn't give them the time of day, however they are the elected government in Gaza and they are the only ones fighting back to try however futile it is to get their ancestral homes back.

Even Zionist leaders admit they are the aggressors who have stolen their homes.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- Moshe Dayan, April 1969, Ha'aretz; quoted in Edward Said, 'Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims', Social Text, Volume 1, 1979, 7-58.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

[jimnyc]

So are we all agreed that anyone who thinks they have a Muslim friend is mistaken, for all Muslims are just pretending to be friends?

Unless you are a Muslim as well, you don't have a friend in a Muslim. You are an infidel, you need to convert, you are an enemy until such time. Just posted this in another thread, if the fake books are to be followed:

Al mai'da 5: 51 "O ye who believe [Muslims] take not the Jews [Yahood] and the Christians [Nasara] for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them [for friendship] is of them."

Muslims cannot befriend or be under the influence of Christians or Jews and if they do, they immediately become enemies of Islam to be slaughtered.

[jimnyc]

Also translated directly from here - http://quran.com/5/51

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

So are we all agreed that anyone who thinks they have a Muslim friend is mistaken, for all Muslims are just pretending to be friends? Now you are catching on. In the Koran , Hadiths /Sura's a true muslim can not be friends with an infidel but yes they can and are encouraged to pretend friendship to further Islam's advancement. Glad to help you with such information. Deception is a much admired and promoted tactic in Islam. --Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Unless you are a Muslim as well, you don't have a friend in a Muslim. You are an infidel, you need to convert, you are an enemy until such time. Just posted this in another thread, if the fake books are to be followed:

Al mai'da 5: 51 "O ye who believe [Muslims] take not the Jews [Yahood] and the Christians [Nasara] for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them [for friendship] is of them."

Muslims cannot befriend or be under the influence of Christians or Jews and if they do, they immediately become enemies of Islam to be slaughtered.
Thanks Jim, I was just going to get the verses for Noir. Good that I finished reading you saved me the trouble. :beer:--Tyr

[Noir]

Unless you are a Muslim as well, you don't have a friend in a Muslim. You are an infidel, you need to convert, you are an enemy until such time. Just posted this in another thread, if the fake books are to be followed:

Al mai'da 5: 51 "O ye who believe [Muslims] take not the Jews [Yahood] and the Christians [Nasara] for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them [for friendship] is of them."

Muslims cannot befriend or be under the influence of Christians or Jews and if they do, they immediately become enemies of Islam to be slaughtered.

So are your friends who are muslim real muslims?

[Noir]

Now you are catching on. In the Koran , Hadiths /Sura's a true muslim can not be friends with an infidel but yes they can and are encouraged to pretend friendship to further Islam's advancement. Glad to help you with such information. Deception is a much admired and promoted tactic in Islam. --Tyr

So you're saying any muslim who is friends with a non-muslim is not a real muslim?

[jimnyc]

So are your friends who are muslim real muslims?

Yes, they are real muslims, who try to convert me, who believe in multiple marriages, believe in beating women, believe Israel and all its occupants should be annihilated, are 3000% anti-USA, tell me point blank that I am an infidel, lie and deny muslim facts from around the world (like so many others). The 2 who are married treat their wives like they own them, literally, and treat the 3 young girls the same, while the boys get to be part of the family business. They also deny Shia as muslims and think they are no good. They think the Bible is a joke as "written by man" and laugh at anyone who would rationally discuss it with them. They speak highly of Al Qaeda and Hamas - and similarly speak of them as "freedom fighters" and not terrorists, but of course ALL Jews are no good and "baby killers".

They do make good coffee though, which is just their water added to Green Mountain. Being the generous and kind person I am, I have fixed all of their computers 900x for little to no cost. I try to avoid the above discussions with any of them and keep things humorous. The only non-radical among them is a Shia, now a former Shia, who married a Catholic woman and finally came to his senses and converted. He's since had all of the other guys turn their back on him. He's a fine citizen of the community and a police officer for nearly 25 years.

Once I tire of their coffee, continued attempts to convert me and "talk sense into me", and their ability to use and abuse me, I will move on. I offer my friendship with religion as an aside, theirs is a mandatory, even if lengthy process.

[Drummond]

Who lived in "Israel" before the Zionist invasion?

What 'Zionist invasion' would that be, then ?

You're cherrypicking your periods to suit yourself. Around 2000 years ago, didn't Jews live in the region at ALL ? Isn't today's Israel a modern day equivalent of what ALSO existed in ancient times ?

Look to the history of the region, from 2000 years ago up to 1947. It's had war after war, conquest after conquest. And a substantial Jewish presence existed there in the 20th century quite some time before the United Nations ratified the current State of Israel.

I see no reason for 'Palestinians' to have any special claim on the area, much less to think what Hamas do today .. THAT THE STATE OF ISRAEL MUST BE MADE TO CEASE TO EXIST.

Because that's what we're really talking about here. A band of terrorist scum who 'represent' people with a highly dubious claim to the region, who want to see that claim win out over an internationally-recognised Nation State. With the result being the destruction of that Nation State ... as argued for in the Hamas Charter.

Hamas want the death of Israel, to promote a racist 'Lebensraum' situation, brought about on the back of terrorist savagery.


What I mean by "your country" is the place where you live. If a foreign aggressor came and turfed you out of your home and gave you the least productive part of a desert to live in, wouldn't you fight back? Or would you graciously accept being put into a concentration camp for the rest of your life and the lives of your descendants?

Covered already. But you should consider this (.. even though you WON'T ..) - Israel permits Gaza to exist, when I'm sure it has ample firepower to wipe it off the face of the planet if it so chose. But .. even despite the THOUSANDS of rocket attacks Israel has suffered, Israel still permits Gaza to continue.

But Hamas, as its Charter proves, is nothing like as generous towards Israel. THEY want Israel DEFEATED as a viable Nation State.


Everyone misunderstands my position on Hamas here. I wouldn't give them the time of day, however they are the elected government in Gaza and they are the only ones fighting back to try however futile it is to get their ancestral homes back.

Your support for A TERRORIST GROUP is acknowledged for what it is, Jafar.

Hamas, yes, were elected. And tell me, have Hamas held any more elections since ?

[.. I am reminded of Nazi Germany ..]

But Hamas are terrorists, elected by terrorist sympathisers lacking any legitimate claim to Statehood anything like the equal of the Nation State they're bent on obliterating.

And that doesn't bother you, evidently. Killers are OK to support because you hate the same people THEY hate .. THAT'S the truth here, Jafar.

If there'd been an election in Afghanistan and Al Qaeda had formed a Government there .. tell me, Jafar, would you have argued for their 'democratic right' to launch the 9/11 attack ? OR, are there limits to what's internationally, and HUMANLY, acceptable in a civilised world ??

Jafar, you DO give Hamas the 'time of day', and you cherrypick points of argumentation to try and sanitise their image. You, I, everyone here, KNOWS what murderous actions they HAVE taken and still WANT TO TAKE to act against Israelis.

You, Jafar, by supporting Hamas, make yourself a terrorist supporter. THAT IS THE TRUTH OF IT.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

So you're saying any muslim who is friends with a non-muslim is not a real muslim? Actually the Koran says it but does also say its allowed to pretend friendship in order to gain security and use deception to advance Islam.

[aboutime]

Who wants to remind jafar that...prior to Israel becoming a recognized state in the Middle-East. There NEVER WAS any nation in recorded History called "PALESTINE"?

This is what I have found for jafar to read, heed, and forget making excuses.


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Mar 8, 2010 - To answer you,It has never been the name of a nation or state. It is a geographical term, used to designate the region at those times in history when ...

WHAT DOES "PALESTINE" MEAN?who are they?I have looked all over for the history of these so called people, but found nothing, are they any different culturally, historically or ethnically from other Arabs living in any of the 24 Arab countries from which they emigrated?Are the Palestinians unique, do they have their own identitiy?
why dont countries they come from agree to accept them back in.? Is this why the so called Palestinians live in refugee camps?, Are their neighboring Arab countries, lacking fundamental civil rights.In their frustration their only hope and choice is to try and steal someone else's country!which clearly does not belong to the Arabs , but to the Jewish people.

[Drummond]

Who wants to remind jafar that...prior to Israel becoming a recognized state in the Middle-East. There NEVER WAS any nation in recorded History called "PALESTINE"?

This is what I have found for jafar to read, heed, and forget making excuses.


<cite class="bc" style="color: rgb(0, 128, 42); font-style: normal; font-size: 14px !important;">answers.yahoo.com › ... › Travel (http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index?sid=396545469&link=list) › Africa & Middle East (http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index?sid=396545470&link=list) › Israel (http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index?sid=396545473&link=list)</cite>‎



Mar 8, 2010 - To answer you,It has never been the name of a nation or state. It is a geographical term, used to designate the region at those times in history when ...

WHAT DOES "PALESTINE" MEAN?who are they?

I have looked all over for the history of these so called people, but found nothing, are they any different culturally, historically or ethnically from other Arabs living in any of the 24 Arab countries from which they emigrated?Are the Palestinians unique, do they have their own identitiy?
why dont countries they come from agree to accept them back in.? Is this why the so called Palestinians live in refugee camps?, Are their neighboring Arab countries, lacking fundamental civil rights.In their frustration their only hope and choice is to try and steal someone else's country!which clearly does not belong to the Arabs , but to the Jewish people.

Yes, EXACTLY. Israel existed in ancient, Biblical times. Palestine, by contrast, is MYTHICAL.

Here's my offering:-

http://www.mythsandfacts.org/Conflict/7/palestinians.pdf


The Palestinians’ claim that they are an ancient and indigenous people fails to stand up to historic scrutiny. Most Palestinian Arabs were newcomers to British Mandate Palestine. Until the 1967 Six-Day War made it expedient for Arabs to create a Palestinian peoplehood, local Arabs simply considered themselves part of the ‘great Arab nation’ or ‘southern Syrians.’

There is no age-old Palestinian people. Most so-called Palestinians are relative newcomers to The Land of Israel.

Palestinian Arabs cast themselves as a native people in “Palestine” – like the Aborigines in Australia or Native Americans in America. They portray the Jews as European imperialists and colonizers. This is simply untrue.

Until the Jews began returning to the Land of Israel in increasing numbers from the late 19th century to the turn of the 20th, the area called Palestine was a God-forsaken backwash that belonged to the Ottoman Empire, based in Turkey.

The land’s fragile ecology had been laid waste in the wake of the Arabs’ 7th-century conquest. In 1799, the population was at it lowest and estimated to be no more than 250,000 to 300,000 inhabitants in all the land.

At the turn of the 20th century, the Arab population west of the Jordan River (today, Israel and the West Bank) was about half a million inhabitants and east of the Jordan River perhaps 200,000.

The collapse of the agricultural system with the influx of nomadic tribes after the Arab conquest that created malarial swamps and denuded the ancient terrace system eroding the soil, was coupled by a tyrannous regime, a crippling tax system and absentee landowners that further decimated the population. Much of the indigenous population had long since migrated or disappeared. Very few Jews or Arabs lived in the region before the arrival of the first Zionists in the 1880s and most of those that did lived in abject poverty.

Most Arabs living west of the Jordan River in Israel, the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) and Gaza are newcomers who came from surrounding Arab lands after the turn of the 20th century because they were attracted to the relative economic prosperity brought about by the Zionist Movement and the British in the 1920s and 1930s.

The REAL truth is that all this hype about the dispossessed 'Palestinian People' is really about finding a means to assert, then to arrange, the destruction of Israel. People - just as Jafar argues - are meant to think of Jews as invaders, having no right to 'chuck out' the so-called 'rightful' dwellers in the region. But, to the extent that Palestinians ever existed as a distinct group, they were a nomadic people who'd never settled long enough to form any country of their own.

The true history of the region speaks for itself.

[Perianne]

I have not read all this thread. Mostly because I don't give a crap about any Muslim.

I come in contact with Muslims regularly in my job. Without doubt, the male Muslims are the rudest, most arrogant people I have ever been around. I believe it is their culture, but I don't excuse it.

[Drummond]

I have not read all this thread. Mostly because I don't give a crap about any Muslim.

I come in contact with Muslims regularly in my job. Without doubt, the male Muslims are the rudest, most arrogant people I have ever been around. I believe it is their culture, but I don't excuse it.

Refreshingly put, Perianne.

I'm sure you get the treatment that you do from them because you've committed the 'crime' of being a woman, and worse still, a non-Muslim woman. I'm sure that no properly civilised human being SHOULD excuse that sort of attitude or behaviour.

But if you don't give a crap about any Muslim, I think you'll find that they do about you. Enough, that is, to want to see you subservient to all that they represent. It's what Tyr's and my own posts are largely about, alerting people to the arrogance of Islamic expectations of no less than the entire world.

[jafar00]

Unless you are a Muslim as well, you don't have a friend in a Muslim. You are an infidel, you need to convert, you are an enemy until such time. Just posted this in another thread, if the fake books are to be followed:

Al mai'da 5: 51 "O ye who believe [Muslims] take not the Jews [Yahood] and the Christians [Nasara] for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them [for friendship] is of them."

Muslims cannot befriend or be under the influence of Christians or Jews and if they do, they immediately become enemies of Islam to be slaughtered.

This is why I post here. The word translated as friends here "awliyaa" is not literally friends. Awliyaa is the plural of Wali which means Guardian, or protector. In this case it is a religious guide, patron or affiliate.

I know you won't take the word of a Muslim over a hate blog (the only source I can find for the above translation) but I can at least try to help you have a at least a little understanding about what you hate. Don't take English interpretations of the Qur'aan at face value without consulting someone with knowledge about it because you will become astray and make outrageous claims which are totally wrong.

You must also take into account the historical situation surrounding the revelation of a surah. In this case it was not long after the Muslims had been driven from their homes in Mecca and had settled in Medina. Soon after the battle of Badr, some of those from Christian and Jewish tribes who had ancient alliances with the now Muslims were presenting themselves with 2 faces. They were pretending to still be allies but secretly plotting against the Muslims with the pagans of Mecca. It is a warning that a moral and spiritual "alliance" with them is treacherous.

In other words, don't ask a priest, rabbi or zionist hate blog for guidance in religion :p

Saying that Muslims cannot have non Muslim friends is wrong and in stark contrast to these verses...

O ye who believe! Be steadfast witnesses for Allah in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that ye deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is Informed of what ye do. (5:8)

and

Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers. (60:8)

Don't let hatred and ignorance blind you from the truth.


What 'Zionist invasion' would that be, then ?

You're cherrypicking your periods to suit yourself. Around 2000 years ago, didn't Jews live in the region at ALL ? Isn't today's Israel a modern day equivalent of what ALSO existed in ancient times ?

Look to the history of the region, from 2000 years ago up to 1947. It's had war after war, conquest after conquest. And a substantial Jewish presence existed there in the 20th century quite some time before the United Nations ratified the current State of Israel.

I see no reason for 'Palestinians' to have any special claim on the area, much less to think what Hamas do today .. THAT THE STATE OF ISRAEL MUST BE MADE TO CEASE TO EXIST.

Sure Jews lived there over history but so have the Palestinian people. The area has been invaded countless times but one thing is for sure, it has always been referred to as Palestine. Even the ancient Romans called it Palestine. What was given away by the UN as the state of Israel already had an established population, who had nothing to do with Germany's mistreatment of the Jews, and who were unceremoniously turfed out of their homes by the newcomers.



Covered already. But you should consider this (.. even though you WON'T ..) - Israel permits Gaza to exist, when I'm sure it has ample firepower to wipe it off the face of the planet if it so chose. But .. even despite the THOUSANDS of rocket attacks Israel has suffered, Israel still permits Gaza to continue.

You know as well as I do, that they would lose monetary support and holocaust sympathy if they did that. I doubt even they want to go down in history as the worst genocidal maniacs ever.


Yes, EXACTLY. Israel existed in ancient, Biblical times. Palestine, by contrast, is MYTHICAL.

Here's my offering:-

http://www.mythsandfacts.org/Conflict/7/palestinians.pdf



The REAL truth is that all this hype about the dispossessed 'Palestinian People' is really about finding a means to assert, then to arrange, the destruction of Israel. People - just as Jafar argues - are meant to think of Jews as invaders, having no right to 'chuck out' the so-called 'rightful' dwellers in the region. But, to the extent that Palestinians ever existed as a distinct group, they were a nomadic people who'd never settled long enough to form any country of their own.

The true history of the region speaks for itself.

I'm not going to post maps of "Palestine" again. You have seen them the other times this issue has been discussed. It was known as Palestine from about the Iron age (1000+ years BC) onwards.

Up until recent history they have always had a national identity as Palestinians.

They even had their own bank notes. This scan from 1929

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/PalestineP7b-1Pound-1929-donatedtj_f.jpg

How can you say they don't exist when the evidence to support the idea that they do exist is right in front of you?

[aboutime]

This is why I post here. The word translated as friends here "awliyaa" is not literally friends. Awliyaa is the plural of Wali which means Guardian, or protector. In this case it is a religious guide, patron or affiliate.

I know you won't take the word of a Muslim over a hate blog (the only source I can find for the above translation) but I can at least try to help you have a at least a little understanding about what you hate. Don't take English interpretations of the Qur'aan at face value without consulting someone with knowledge about it because you will become astray and make outrageous claims which are totally wrong.

You must also take into account the historical situation surrounding the revelation of a surah. In this case it was not long after the Muslims had been driven from their homes in Mecca and had settled in Medina. Soon after the battle of Badr, some of those from Christian and Jewish tribes who had ancient alliances with the now Muslims were presenting themselves with 2 faces. They were pretending to still be allies but secretly plotting against the Muslims with the pagans of Mecca. It is a warning that a moral and spiritual "alliance" with them is treacherous.

In other words, don't ask a priest, rabbi or zionist hate blog for guidance in religion :p

Saying that Muslims cannot have non Muslim friends is wrong and in stark contrast to these verses...

O ye who believe! Be steadfast witnesses for Allah in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that ye deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is Informed of what ye do. (5:8)

and

Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers. (60:8)

Don't let hatred and ignorance blind you from the truth.



Sure Jews lived there over history but so have the Palestinian people. The area has been invaded countless times but one thing is for sure, it has always been referred to as Palestine. Even the ancient Romans called it Palestine. What was given away by the UN as the state of Israel already had an established population, who had nothing to do with Germany's mistreatment of the Jews, and who were unceremoniously turfed out of their homes by the newcomers.




You know as well as I do, that they would lose monetary support and holocaust sympathy if they did that. I doubt even they want to go down in history as the worst genocidal maniacs ever.



I'm not going to post maps of "Palestine" again. You have seen them the other times this issue has been discussed. It was known as Palestine from about the Iron age (1000+ years BC) onwards.

Up until recent history they have always had a national identity as Palestinians.

They even had their own bank notes. This scan from 1929

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/PalestineP7b-1Pound-1929-donatedtj_f.jpg

How can you say they don't exist when the evidence to support the idea that they do exist is right in front of you?

Excuses, excuses, excuses are still unable to change actual facts, or constantly repeated lies jafar.
As the old expression says "Repeat a lie often, and long enough, and those hearing the lie are eventually convinced the Lie is truth".
Same can, and is said for what your excuses say above.
Long before the birth of Christ, or Allah. Human beings used stones, animals, crops, and even other humans as currency. Was that also Palestine?????

[Gaffer]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/PalestineP7b-1Pound-1929-donatedtj_f.jpg

How can you say they don't exist when the evidence to support the idea that they do exist is right in front of you?

That's British currency for the territory. Try again.

[jafar00]

That's British currency for the territory. Try again.

It's called the "Palestinian" pound.

[red state]

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4650389860516127&pid=15.1&w=126&h=126&p=0 :lame2: :lol: "more lies".....FROM jafarhttp://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4650389860516127&pid=15.1&w=126&h=126&p=0

jafar, your LIES make no sense and you no nothing of TRUTH!!! I do believe that Gaffer is correct and he's usually pretty darn sharp on catching you and others of ilk in their lies and misrepresentation of facts. That is British currency for when they had control over the area (unless you can prove otherwise). Perhaps you can prove this better than you can prove that there are REAL muSLUMS out there...somewhere.

You can throw all your crap around if you want to but the fact is that Israel was a KINGDOM long ago and had been defeated many times throughout their long history. After Britain backed out of that area, they "GAVE" each group of people a portion of land (fairly I believe) YET the muSLUMS attempted to TAKE the Israeli's portion and ended up losing more of their own "GIVEN" portion to their enemy (Israel) and Israel has been the only ones to promote peace by giving in. Each and every time they give in to their "neighbors" they end up attacked for it. This usually ends up with the 'paliSTAINians' getting their @$$E$ kicked again and losing more ground (AGAIN). If Israel was anything near as vile and dishonorable as the 'paliSTAINians' they'd have every bit of that country by now and the muSLUMS would be begging to pitch a tent in Syria, Egypt or some other neighboring country (as they did when Israel was a MIGHTY kingdom and world power).

Spew your lies elswhere....

[red state]

That's British currency for the territory. Try again.


So.....try again, jafar...

[red state]

It's called the "Palestinian" pound.


http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4650389860516127&pid=15.1&w=126&h=126&p=0 :lame2: :lol: "more lies".....FROM jafarhttp://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4650389860516127&pid=15.1&w=126&h=126&p=0

jafar, your LIES make no sense and you no nothing of TRUTH!!! I do believe that Gaffer is correct and he's usually pretty darn sharp on catching you and others of ilk in their lies and misrepresentation of facts. That is British currency for when they had control over the area (unless you can prove otherwise). Perhaps you can prove this better than you can prove that there are REAL muSLUMS out there...somewhere.

You can throw all your crap around if you want to but the fact is that Israel was a KINGDOM long ago and had been defeated many times throughout their long history. After Britain backed out of that area, they "GAVE" each group of people a portion of land (fairly I believe) YET the muSLUMS attempted to TAKE the Israeli's portion and ended up losing more of their own "GIVEN" portion to their enemy (Israel) and Israel has been the only ones to promote peace by giving in. Each and every time they give in to their "neighbors" they end up attacked for it. This usually ends up with the 'paliSTAINians' getting their @$$E$ kicked again and losing more ground (AGAIN). If Israel was anything near as vile and dishonorable as the 'paliSTAINians' they'd have every bit of that country by now and the muSLUMS would be begging to pitch a tent in Syria, Egypt or some other neighboring country (as they did when Israel was a MIGHTY kingdom and world power).

Spew your lies elsewhere....

[red state]

I'll help you:
Just Google British Middle Eastern Pound images or the BRITISH/paliSTAINian pound. :dance:

[red states rule]

http://www.jewishhigh.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/msg_from_hamas_toon5.jpg

[red states rule]

I have not read all this thread. Mostly because I don't give a crap about any Muslim.

I come in contact with Muslims regularly in my job. Without doubt, the male Muslims are the rudest, most arrogant people I have ever been around. I believe it is their culture, but I don't excuse it.

So far you have only met the nice ones

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRu74AoiykYzTssWBrZD8cTsg3HTDTOF Svz6MVNFZ5ixIRBcfC_

[Gaffer]

It's called the "Palestinian" pound.

It's called that because it was a British issued currency for the region. It even says POUND on the bill. Most countries issue script in regions they have occupied. It's for local use only. And actual British pound was probably worth ten times what that was. In many cases it's illegal to use anything but the local script.

So as I and Red States said, try again.

[Drummond]

Sure Jews lived there over history but so have the Palestinian people. The area has been invaded countless times but one thing is for sure, it has always been referred to as Palestine. Even the ancient Romans called it Palestine. What was given away by the UN as the state of Israel already had an established population, who had nothing to do with Germany's mistreatment of the Jews, and who were unceremoniously turfed out of their homes by the newcomers.

You speak as though 'Palestine' was one area, having one name. And you speak as though 'Palestinians' were and are a distinct people, and have been throughout history.

NEITHER is the case !! So, little wonder that for this reason alone there has NEVER been a recognised Nation State of Palestine !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine


The name was used by Ancient Greek writers, and was later used for the Roman province Syria Palaestina, the Byzantine Palaestina Prima and the Umayyad and Abbasid province of Jund Filastin. The region is also known as the Land of Israel, the Holy Land, the Southern Levant, Cisjordan, and historically has been known by other names including Canaan, Southern Syria and Jerusalem.

Situated at a strategic location between Egypt, Syria and Arabia, and the birthplace of Judaism and Christianity, the region has a long and tumultuous history as a crossroads for religion, culture, commerce, and politics. The region has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, the Sunni Arab Caliphates, the Shia Fatimid Caliphate, Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans, the British and modern Israelis and Palestinians.

Boundaries of the region have changed throughout history, and were last defined in modern times by the Franco-British boundary agreement (1920) and the Transjordan memorandum of 16 September 1922, during the mandate period. Today, the region comprises the State of Israel and the Palestinian territories.

The boundaries of Palestine have varied throughout history. The Jordan Rift Valley (comprising Wadi Arabah, the Dead Sea and River Jordan) has at times formed a political and administrative frontier, even within empires that have controlled both territories. At other times, such as during certain periods during the Hasmonean and Crusader states for example, as well as during the biblical period, territories on both sides of the river formed part of the same administrative unit. During the Arab Caliphate period, parts of southern Lebanon and the northern highland areas of Palestine and Jordan were administered as Jund al-Urdun, while the southern parts of the latter two formed part of Jund Dimashq, which during the ninth century was attached to the administrative unit of Jund Filasteen.

The boundaries of the area and the ethnic nature of the people referred to by Herodotus in the 5th century BCE as Palaestina vary according to context. Sometimes, he uses it to refer to the coast north of Mount Carmel. Elsewhere, distinguishing the Syrians in Palestine from the Phoenicians, he refers to their land as extending down all the coast from Phoenicia to Egypt. Pliny, writing in Latin in the 1st century CE, describes a region of Syria that was "formerly called Palaestina" among the areas of the Eastern Mediterranean.

Since the Byzantine Period, the Byzantine borders of Palaestina (I and II, also known as Palaestina Prima, "First Palestine", and Palaestina Secunda, "Second Palestine"), have served as a name for the geographic area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. Under Arab rule, Filastin (or Jund Filastin) was used administratively to refer to what was under the Byzantines Palaestina Secunda (comprising Judaea and Samaria), while Palaestina Prima (comprising the Galilee region) was renamed Urdunn ("Jordan" or Jund al-Urdunn).

Nineteenth-century sources refer to Palestine as extending from the sea to the caravan route, presumably the Hejaz-Damascus route east of the Jordan River valley. Others refer to it as extending from the sea to the desert. Prior to the Allied Powers victory in World War I and the Partitioning of the Ottoman Empire, which created the British mandate in the Levant, most of the northern area of what is today Jordan formed part of the Ottoman Vilayet of Damascus (Syria), while the southern part of Jordan was part of the Vilayet of Hejaz. What later became part of British Mandate Palestine was in Ottoman times divided between the Vilayet of Beirut (Lebanon) and the Sanjak of Jerusalem.

To put it mildly, Jafar, 'this is all a bit of a mess', isn't it ? Different peoples, different empires, have defined the location of this so-called 'Palestine' in different ways, according to their choice.

As for the so-called 'Palestinian People' ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people


Genetic analysis suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the southern Levant whose core may reach back to prehistoric times. A study of high-resolution haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Israeli Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool. Since the time of the Muslim conquests in the 7th century, religious conversions have resulted in Palestinians being predominantly Sunni Muslim by religious affiliation, though there is a significant Palestinian Christian minority of various Christian denominations, as well as Druze and a small Samaritan community. Though Palestinian Jews made up part of the population of Palestine prior to the creation of the State of Israel, few identify as "Palestinian" today. Acculturation, independent from conversion to Islam, resulted in Palestinians being linguistically and culturally Arab. The vernacular of Palestinians, irrespective of religion, is the Palestinian dialect of Arabic. Many Arab citizens of Israel including Palestinians are bilingual and fluent in Hebrew.

The history of a distinct Palestinian national identity is a disputed issue amongst scholars. Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th century. "Palestinian" was used to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the Arabs of Palestine in a limited way until World War I. The first demand for national independence of the Levant was issued by the Syrian–Palestinian Congress on 21 September 1921. After the creation of the State of Israel, the exodus of 1948, and more so after the exodus of 1967, the term came to signify not only a place of origin, but also the sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian state.

It gets more interesting, doesn't it, Jafar ?

If 'Palestinians' exist, then they're genetically PART JEWISH. They may not identify as Jewish, because of the Islamification of so-called 'Palestinians', which in turn considerably post-dates the original Israel of Biblical times. Nonetheless ... it's evidently a genetic fact that, when Palestinians indulge in, shall we call it, 'Jihadist excesses', they're attacking BLOOD BROTHERS ... who just happen, 'very naughtily', to not buy into Islam.

Little wonder that Islamists hate them for it. This is down to simple bigotry. A bloodlust founded on bigotry. Actually, a 'blood feud' ..

You must feel 'proud' of Hamas, Jafar ....

Anyway, evidently a good case can be made to say that Palestinian identity, as we recognise it today (IF we do ..) is actually less than ONE century old. And, Jafar, the Jewish claim for the re-establishment of an Israel is MANY CENTURIES older.

So, give it up. 'Palestinians' are linked, genetically, to Jews. The geographical boundaries of so-called Palestine are rather less well defined than shifting sand dunes. One would have greater luck trying to pin down the exact boundaries of the Bermuda Triangle.

... I'm waiting for Atlantis to start figuring in the story, sometime ...


You know as well as I do, that they would lose monetary support and holocaust sympathy if they did that. I doubt even they want to go down in history as the worst genocidal maniacs ever.

... whereas, Hamas have no such qualms, eh ?

Neither did Ahmadinejad, where Israel was concerned.


I'm not going to post maps of "Palestine" again.

- - CRIPES ! I DON'T BLAME YOU !!!!


You have seen them the other times this issue has been discussed. It was known as Palestine from about the Iron age (1000+ years BC) onwards.

Up until recent history they have always had a national identity as Palestinians.

Wikipedia lies, then ?

Prove to me that their entries are falsehoods.


They even had their own bank notes. This scan from 1929

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/PalestineP7b-1Pound-1929-donatedtj_f.jpg

How can you say they don't exist when the evidence to support the idea that they do exist is right in front of you?

You've been answered on this already. This is a product of BRITISH dominion over the territory, of the time. Indeed, you can even see from the image that the banknote was printed in London (look at the very bottom of the image) !!!

Talking of which .. see ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine


Mandatory Palestine or Mandate of Palestine (English: Palestine; Arabic: فلسطين‎ Filasţīn; Hebrew: פָּלֶשְׂתִּינָה (א"י) Palestína (EY), where "EY" indicates "Eretz Yisrael") was a geopolitical entity under British administration, carved out of Ottoman Southern Syria after World War I. British civil administration in Palestine operated from 1920 until 1948.

During the First World War, General Edmund Allenby the British Empire commander of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force remained responsible for the territories, occupied during the Sinai and Palestine Campaign. After the war ended a military administration, named Occupied Enemy Territory Administration, was established in the captured territory of the former Ottoman Syria. The British sought to set up legitimacy for their continued control of the region and this was achieved by obtaining a mandate from the League of Nations in June 1922. The formal objective of the League of Nations Mandate system was to administer parts of the defunct Ottoman Empire, which had been in control of the Middle East since the 16th century, "until such time as they are able to stand alone."

The civil Mandate administration was formalized with the League of Nations' consent in 1923 under the British Mandate for Palestine, which covered two administrative areas. The land west of the Jordan River, known as Palestine, was under direct British administration until 1948, while the land east of the Jordan was a semi-autonomous region known as Transjordan, under the rule of the Hashemite family from the Hijaz, and gained independence in 1946.

Through the British Mandate period, the area experienced the ascent of two major nationalist movements, one among the Jews and the other among the Arabs. Competition and collision of those nationalist movements have had a significant impact on the history of that period, with violence peaking especially high during the Arab Revolt of 1936-1939 and the Civil War of 1947-1948.

So, was 'Mandatory Palestine', the forerunner of so-called 'modern' Palestine (whose boundaries and exact location are different) even PALESTINE, AT ALL, AS YOU'D KNOW IT ? And if not, where was the REAL 'Palestine' during that time ?

.. That's to say ... as, ahem, the PART JEWISH people of 'Palestine' would think of it ???

You know, Jafar, the more one looks into all this, the murkier the waters become ....

[Drummond]

That's British currency for the territory. Try again.:clap::clap::clap:

Exactly, Gaffer. As I pointed out in my own post, the timing of when it was printed, to say nothing of the just-legible evidence at the bottom of the banknote to show it was produced in London (!!!) are something of a giveaway !!!!

[Gaffer]

:clap::clap::clap:

Exactly, Gaffer. As I pointed out in my own post, the timing of when it was printed, to say nothing of the just-legible evidence at the bottom of the banknote to show it was produced in London (!!!) are something of a giveaway !!!!

I looked at that too. Guess he didn't expect anyone to look closely at it. Plus my experience in Vietnam taught me that countries like the US and UK use script to help protect their actual money when in foreign countries. And the script is changed every so often to prevent counterfeiting. The locals use to get really pissed when that happened.

[jafar00]

It's called that because it was a British issued currency for the region. It even says POUND on the bill. Most countries issue script in regions they have occupied. It's for local use only. And actual British pound was probably worth ten times what that was. In many cases it's illegal to use anything but the local script.

So as I and Red States said, try again.

Egypt, Syria, Sudan and Lebanon also have pounds. Does that mean they don't exist?


:clap::clap::clap:

Exactly, Gaffer. As I pointed out in my own post, the timing of when it was printed, to say nothing of the just-legible evidence at the bottom of the banknote to show it was produced in London (!!!) are something of a giveaway !!!!

Vietnamese plastic notes were produced in Australia. So what of it?

BTW, here are some more historical maps of "Palestine" for you. Saying it never existed is stupid after being presented with evidence that it did.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/ancient_palestine_ref_1926.jpg
http://www.gilai.com/images/items/1298_big.jpg

[Gaffer]

Egypt, Syria, Sudan and Lebanon also have pounds. Does that mean they don't exist?

It means they continued using the British pound as their currency designation, for what ever reason they had.


Vietnamese plastic notes were produced in Australia. So what of it?

I don't know where they were produced but they were paper, not plastic. I used it as an example of military forces using such script in war zones or occupied territory. In the case of the British in palestine territory they would have to do that as there was no country or govt to print money or issue it. It was the Brit's responsibility. Before that it was the Turk's.

As for your maps, I see territory and regions. But none of them show the country of palestine. I also don't see lebanon or jordan. hmmmm. Maybe because none of them existed at that time. What was used to identify the regions were the old biblical names. palestine was simply a very large area of land which the British divided up. The pals actually have a right to claim parts of jordan, syria and lebanon as their territory too. Think maybe they should do that?

Or

Maybe they could take all that money that is given to them and build infrastructure, agriculture and manufacturing to become self sufficient. Instead of dwelling on hate and desire to destroy Israel. Think maybe they should do that?

[red state]

jafar LIES and must (TRY AGAIN). We're not biting so try some different bait there "PAL-estine". Is it just me or does PALESTINE sound like a Jewish word STIEN, STEIN as with Palestine with out the "E"? HA!!! 70% ayyy??? Well aint that sumpin'!!! Shut my mouth and slice me another piece of pie....how about you shuttin' yo mouth jafar....let others guess your intelligence without you actually proving to all of us what most of us already know.

Thanks for those statistics and fact Gaffer....you seem to have shut jafar up for a while. THANKS a bunch for that!!!!

[Drummond]

BTW, here are some more historical maps of "Palestine" for you. Saying it never existed is stupid after being presented with evidence that it did.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/ancient_palestine_ref_1926.jpg
http://www.gilai.com/images/items/1298_big.jpg

I thought you said that you weren't going to post 'maps of Palestine' again ?

But Jafar, really, you're being tiresome. These maps don't prove a thing.

For example, I don't doubt that the Nazis produced maps of Europe showing great swathes of Europe as being a dominion of the Third Reich. But that doesn't legitimise the Third Reich's existence across aeons !!!

Maps change over time, showing differing names for the same territory. But as for your 'proof' of Palestine's 'legitimacy' ... I shall simply requote part of what I've already posted. As follows:-


The boundaries of Palestine have varied throughout history. The Jordan Rift Valley (comprising Wadi Arabah, the Dead Sea and River Jordan) has at times formed a political and administrative frontier, even within empires that have controlled both territories. At other times, such as during certain periods during the Hasmonean and Crusader states for example, as well as during the biblical period, territories on both sides of the river formed part of the same administrative unit. During the Arab Caliphate period, parts of southern Lebanon and the northern highland areas of Palestine and Jordan were administered as Jund al-Urdun, while the southern parts of the latter two formed part of Jund Dimashq, which during the ninth century was attached to the administrative unit of Jund Filasteen.

The boundaries of the area and the ethnic nature of the people referred to by Herodotus in the 5th century BCE as Palaestina vary according to context. Sometimes, he uses it to refer to the coast north of Mount Carmel. Elsewhere, distinguishing the Syrians in Palestine from the Phoenicians, he refers to their land as extending down all the coast from Phoenicia to Egypt. Pliny, writing in Latin in the 1st century CE, describes a region of Syria that was "formerly called Palaestina" among the areas of the Eastern Mediterranean.

Now, are you SERIOUSLY telling me it's impossible for maps to exist as snapshots of whatever 'status quo' might apply to the period the map is meant to address ?!? AND, how would ANY such map disprove even ONE WORD of the above text ???

No, Jafar. If you're going to be convincing, you'll have to prove that Wikipedia's description is a lie, and that 'Palestine' has known independent, autonomous Nation Statehood in the past, AND that any / all of 'this' this trumps the right of Israel to exist (... which means also proving to us that the United Nations acted unlawfully, by the way ...).

And should you by any chance try any of that (which of course I doubt ..) .. it should be remembered that the genetic composition of the people in that area is in part provably Jewish. So, Jafar, enjoy furthering your squalid little blood feud, for the sake of Islamic 'purity' !!

How's that loyalty to Hamas coming along, by the way ?

[red state]

Drummond, pease don't ask him a question that will bring him and the intellignece level down....we already know what he's gonna say (like a broken, liberal record) THEY only know one answer and that is the one THEY have been programmed to respond with.

Don't go away angry, mr. jafar....just go away or man up and say that you are wrong and folks like Gaffer and Drummond are RIGHT. They know through experience and common sense the things of this cruel ole world and yet you continue to spew your hate of Jews.

[jafar00]

The boundaries of Palestine have varied throughout history.

The borders of Israel change more frequently. So what?

[Drummond]

The borders of Israel change more frequently. So what?

I've already made my case about this.

Israel is a modern, internationally recognised, autonomous Nation State. What factors have been brought to bear, sometimes outside of Israel's full control, to change those borders ?

'Palestine', however, to whatever degree it can even be said to have had any sort of 'coherent history', has never been autonomous in the sense that Israel is, and also WAS, in more ancient times.

How's the blood feud coming along ? Care to impart some Charter-inspired Hamas 'wisdom' in our direction ?

[jafar00]

I've already made my case about this.

Israel is a modern, internationally recognised, autonomous Nation State. What factors have been brought to bear, sometimes outside of Israel's full control, to change those borders ?

'Palestine', however, to whatever degree it can even be said to have had any sort of 'coherent history', has never been autonomous in the sense that Israel is, and also WAS, in more ancient times.

How's the blood feud coming along ? Care to impart some Charter-inspired Hamas 'wisdom' in our direction ?

Whatever your views, it doesn't change the fact that people were turfed out of their homes at gun and bomb point to create Israel. This is the problem with the place.

[aboutime]

JAFAR'S 5388. But jafa's thought's mean more5389.

[red states rule]

Whatever your views, it doesn't change the fact that people were turfed out of their homes at gun and bomb point to create Israel. This is the problem with the place.

No, the problem is assholes like you who support and then lie about f'ing terrorist's who want to slaughter very Jew on the planet think it will make the world a better place


http://progressivecynic.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/hamas-cartoon.jpg?w=600



http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR_vVooQafRWu7TAEMqV9rhy_glAtYvh AXu0lNYFkhmjmm-fWpG6Q