The Punishment for Reading a Bible in Saudi Arabia [Archive] - Debate Policy

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Jeff

08-13-2013, 03:57 PM

Pretty barbaric to say the least, all this because someone wanted to read the bible, hmmm from the religion of peace

jafar you tried to say Christians kill in the name of God all the time I disagree and here is a little fact you may like to see

Apart from their Sharia law, based on the doctrine’s of their ‘prophet’ Mohammed (warlord and pedophile) Saudi Arabia has been short of head-choppers (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/06/07/saudi-arabia-jobs-problem-not-enough-exectutioners/) for their 2,500+ executions per year (http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/03/30/the-work-of-god-interview-with-saudi-executioner-who-behead-2500-people-a-year/) PER executioner and have been advertising to fill these dirty positions for quite sometime.
I know this isn't in the Koran but this is the law they want is it not ?

Back to the story

There is a new punishment for reading the Bible in Saudi Arabia. Your right hand is shredded. The four fingers and thumb are cut to the bone forty or fifty times. Muscles and nerves are severed so as to render the hand useless in the future. Also this punishment is carried out in filthy conditions making serious infection almost certain. [the image is an example of the damage].
http://shariaunveiled.wordpress.com/2013/08/11/the-punishment-for-reading-a-bible-in-saudi-arabia/

jafar00

08-13-2013, 07:33 PM

Pretty barbaric to say the least, all this because someone wanted to read the bible, hmmm from the religion of peace

jafar you tried to say Christians kill in the name of God all the time I disagree and here is a little fact you may like to see

Apart from their Sharia law, based on the doctrine’s of their ‘prophet’ Mohammed (warlord and pedophile) Saudi Arabia has been short of head-choppers (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/06/07/saudi-arabia-jobs-problem-not-enough-exectutioners/) for their 2,500+ executions per year (http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/03/30/the-work-of-god-interview-with-saudi-executioner-who-behead-2500-people-a-year/) PER executioner and have been advertising to fill these dirty positions for quite sometime.

I know this isn't in the Koran but this is the law they want is it not ?

Back to the story

There is a new punishment for reading the Bible in Saudi Arabia. Your right hand is shredded. The four fingers and thumb are cut to the bone forty or fifty times. Muscles and nerves are severed so as to render the hand useless in the future. Also this punishment is carried out in filthy conditions making serious infection almost certain. [the image is an example of the damage].

http://shariaunveiled.wordpress.com/2013/08/11/the-punishment-for-reading-a-bible-in-saudi-arabia/

You are preaching to the converted. I have stated more than a few times that the Saudi regime is deviant and not Islamic. Everyone outside of Saudi Arabia knows this.

I agree this is barbaric. It's totally against at least Surat al Kaafiroon, "To you your religion and to me, mine" for a start.

This is not an Islamic law or punishment. Malaysia is an Islamic country for example and they have churches and nobody is punished for reading a Bible.

Kathianne

08-13-2013, 07:43 PM

You are preaching to the converted. I have stated more than a few times that the Saudi regime is deviant and not Islamic. Everyone outside of Saudi Arabia knows this.

I agree this is barbaric. It's totally against at least Surat al Kaafiroon, "To you your religion and to me, mine" for a start.

This is not an Islamic law or punishment. Malaysia is an Islamic country for example and they have churches and nobody is punished for reading a Bible.

Jafar, I often feel for you, trying to respond and you do, to all those attacking you and your defense of your religious beliefs. I believer that you are committed to what you think your religion stands for. Indeed, you may actually be one of the few lights, trying to bring illumination in the darkness.

Here's the problem. Along the way you've said, "English Translations", yet the Koran has been translated as much as the Bible. The 'English speaking' folks have a myriad of reasons to get the translations right, like their citizens lives, your denying they 'got it right', is on you.

The interpretation problems aren't from the West, not by a long shot. It's from the elite in Islamic countries, recruiting to those that cannot read the Koran or anything else, in their own languages, never mind English or Arabic.

jafar00

08-13-2013, 08:24 PM

Jafar, I often feel for you, trying to respond and you do, to all those attacking you and your defense of your religious beliefs. I believer that you are committed to what you think your religion stands for. Indeed, you may actually be one of the few lights, trying to bring illumination in the darkness.

Here's the problem. Along the way you've said, "English Translations", yet the Koran has been translated as much as the Bible. The 'English speaking' folks have a myriad of reasons to get the translations right, like their citizens lives, your denying they 'got it right', is on you.

The interpretation problems aren't from the West, not by a long shot. It's from the elite in Islamic countries, recruiting to those that cannot read the Koran or anything else, in their own languages, never mind English or Arabic.

The problem is not with the translations or interpretations. It's from people who don't bother to fully research something before commenting about it.

Kathianne

08-13-2013, 08:37 PM

]The problem is not with the translations or interpretations.[/B] It's from people who don't bother to fully research something before commenting about it.

And yet earlier you blamed problems on English readings. Seriously, what do you want?

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

08-13-2013, 09:09 PM

And yet earlier you blamed problems on English readings. Seriously, what do you want? Could be that he wants Islam to actually be a religion of peace!! Could be that he already thinks it is. Could be he actually does believe most muslims have been led astray. Were it not for his stand on Hamas those all could be true. His stand on supporting Hamas is the fly in the soup for a lot of us. As I've noted before Hamas is the single greatest practitioner of Jihad in existence. And Jihad is truly a core part of Islam despite the obvious lying claims stating that it is not.--Tyr

Kathianne

08-13-2013, 09:13 PM

The problem is not with the translations or interpretations. It's from people who don't bother to fully research something before commenting about it.

and of the umteenth billion members of Islam, how many can?

jafar00

08-13-2013, 10:16 PM

and of the umteenth billion members of Islam, how many can?

You tell me.

jafar00

08-13-2013, 10:17 PM

And yet earlier you blamed problems on English readings. Seriously, what do you want?

No. The comprehension of them. Not just reading but understanding them in context etc...

red state

08-13-2013, 11:58 PM

Let the blind "feel" for jafar....I know what his lies are all about and this is exactly how they've established such a foot hold in civilized nations. The "tolerant" will always "FEEL" and try to be "fair" but the facts are well known to the wise and I give no credit where there is no credit to be given. I have researched the cult of iSLUM and have had friends who were once muSLUM and I know and have their account of this cult which can only be described as a practice of pure evil. PERIOD. Those who extinguish freedom, respect for women and the worship of a profit who often had "fits" (when he wasn't robbing and looting) are the REAL muSLUMs. They aren't hiding in Antarctica somewhere or on some dark corner of the moon (from which their cult derived from). NO, my friends, the REAL muSLUMS are all around us and in every sewer of the world oppressing others and causing great harm to mankind.

Noir

08-14-2013, 12:14 AM

No. The comprehension of them. Not just reading but understanding them in context etc...

Kay so their are a wealth to choose from, for example

2171. Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that Lâ ilâha ill-Allâh (there is no god but Allâh), cannot be shed except in three cases: 1. Life for life (in cases of intentional murders without right i.e., in Al-Qis̩âs̩ – Law of Equality in punishment); 2. A married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse; and 3. The one who turns renegade from Islâm (apostate) and leaves the group of Muslims. [9:17-O.B]"[49]

Now i know that you will know how i read that, and what i take it to mean. So how am I wrong in thinking that is what it means?

Drummond

08-14-2013, 02:16 AM

Could be that he wants Islam to actually be a religion of peace!! Could be that he already thinks it is. Could be he actually does believe most muslims have been led astray. Were it not for his stand on Hamas those all could be true. His stand on supporting Hamas is the fly in the soup for a lot of us. As I've noted before Hamas is the single greatest practitioner of Jihad in existence. And Jihad is truly a core part of Islam despite the obvious lying claims stating that it is not.--Tyr

:clap::clap::clap:

Precisely, Tyr. Jafar's continuing support for Hamas makes no sense, IF Jafar is truly committed to not only believing, but in following, Islam as a 'religion of peace'.

I've already posted this elsewhere. However, here's further proof for Jafar that he cannot possibly reconcile support for Hamas in any other way but as support for terrorism. And I offer him this challenge, now ... tell us you will henceforth CEASE any further support of those TERRORISTS ...

http://archive.adl.org/PresRele/ASaw_14/5046_14.htm

New York, NY, May 9, 2007 … The revelation that a Hamas-run TV station is using what appears to be a Mickey Mouse look-alike named "Farfur" to promote a message of radical Islam, anti-Semitism and hatred for the West, "shows that for all of their attempts to appear more moderate, Hamas is still willing to indoctrinate children into their culture of hate," the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) said today.
The "Farfur" character and child actors on the program taunt Western leaders and urge children to take up AK-47 assault rifles to defeat Israel and the United States. Farfur, a mouse in tuxedo with tails and red bow tie, first appeared last month on Al-Aqsa TV, the official television station of the terrorist group Hamas in Gaza City, according to Palestinian Media Watch (www.pmw.org.il), which was the first to report on and translate the program. Palestinian Information Minister Mustafa Barghouti announced today that the program had been pulled off the air "for review" and said it was "wrong to use a program directed at children to convey political messages."

Hamas has long used programs aimed at young children to raise a new generation of terrorists. Other Palestinian children's programs inciting hate have used the Mickey Mouse image. An infamous 1998 episode of the program the Children's Club on official Palestinian Authority television had a Mickey Mouse-type figure amidst children praising suicide terrorist attacks against Israelis.

"When you take a Mickey Mouse-like character and deliberately use it to promote an ideology of hatred, obviously its going to have an impact on children and their thinking," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "The apparent message to children is, 'drink milk everyday, and defeat the Jews.'

"For all of their attempts to appear more moderate, Hamas is still willing to indoctrinate children into their culture of hate," added Mr. Foxman.

Hamas has been designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization by the U.S. State Department and is responsible for dozens of suicide attacks against Israeli civilians.

red states rule

08-14-2013, 02:23 AM

jafar00

08-14-2013, 04:53 AM

:clap::clap::clap:

Precisely, Tyr. Jafar's continuing support for Hamas makes no sense, IF Jafar is truly committed to not only believing, but in following, Islam as a 'religion of peace'.

I've already posted this elsewhere. However, here's further proof for Jafar that he cannot possibly reconcile support for Hamas in any other way but as support for terrorism. And I offer him this challenge, now ... tell us you will henceforth CEASE any further support of those TERRORISTS ...

http://archive.adl.org/PresRele/ASaw_14/5046_14.htm

Are you going to do this in EVERY thread? Hamas doesn't represent Islam BTW.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

08-14-2013, 08:33 AM

Are you going to do this in EVERY thread? Hamas doesn't represent Islam BTW. Yes it does Jafar. Its a major force in Islam and its sole purpose is to advance Islam and destroy Israel. You can deny it all you like but does not change the reality. You are engaging in this and its not working..-Tyr

http://thumb10.shutterstock.com/thumb_small/1058333/126392426/stock-vector-illustration-of-cartoon-three-monkeys-see-hear-speak-no-evil-126392426.jpg

red state

08-14-2013, 09:44 AM

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Drummond http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=657925#post657925)
:clap::clap::clap:

Precisely, Tyr. Jafar's continuing support for Hamas makes no sense, IF Jafar is truly committed to not only believing, but in following, Islam as a 'religion of peace'.

I've already posted this elsewhere. However, here's further proof for Jafar that he cannot possibly reconcile support for Hamas in any other way but as support for terrorism. And I offer him this challenge, now ... tell us you will henceforth CEASE any further support of those TERRORISTS ...

http://archive.adl.org/PresRele/ASaw_14/5046_14.htm

Are you going to do this in EVERY thread? Hamas doesn't represent Islam BTW.

jAFAR, IF YOU CONTINUE TO LIE, I'M SURE DRUMMOND WILL CONTINUE TO SHARE FACTS AND ENLIGHTEN ALL AS TO THE TRUTH CONCERNING iSLUM....SOUNDS FAIR AND BALANCED TO ME (AS NIGHT AND DAY).

red states rule

08-15-2013, 02:49 AM

Are you going to do this in EVERY thread? Hamas doesn't represent Islam BTW.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_r4RxAPvEduQ/SWQBC6qeTnI/AAAAAAAAC88/0wg7KSMleL4/s800/hamas%20tenets.jpg

jafar00

08-15-2013, 04:46 AM

I can't even agree with you guys without a thread being derailed into yet another Hamas debate. Damned if I do and damned if I don't.

Drummond

08-15-2013, 05:14 AM

Drummond

08-15-2013, 05:25 AM

I can't even agree with you guys without a thread being derailed into yet another Hamas debate. Damned if I do and damned if I don't.

Au contraire.

I don't see your problem. The solution is simple, Jafar .. to be credible, you need to at least be CONSISTENT. However much you rail against terrorists, expressing disapproval of the likes of Al Qaeda, or claim that the brutalities from Saudi Arabia are unrepresentative of Islam, the Islam you say is 'true' and 'peaceloving' .. and however myopically you dismiss Islamic terrorists virtually the world over (!) for THEIR terrorism .. STILL, YOU WON'T WITHDRAW ALL SUPPORT FOR HAMAS.

Hamas ARE Islamic. Their Charter makes it abundantly clear that their warlike, utterly Jihadist approach to their religion IS in the service of Islam. They even brainwash kids to become suicide bombers !!!!!

And their central aim, reason for being, is to launch terrorist attacks against a perceived enemy, one they hate out of long-standing, deeply-ingrained bigoted racism .. which is a sick joke in itself, because the so-called 'Palestinian people' are provably PART JEWISH !!

... so, you simultaneously OPPOSE, yet also SUPPORT, terrorists !

I say again: to be credible, you need to be consistent. STOP SUPPORTING HAMAS, AND TELL US THAT YOU HAVE .. this will be progress, Jafar.

Jeff

08-15-2013, 07:07 AM

And yet earlier you blamed problems on English readings. Seriously, what do you want?

He wants what ever good Muslim wants to rid the world of all other religions and then they will be the religion of peace

jafar that isn't fair of me to say and I apologize I truly believe you just like me love your religion and there is nothing wrong with that but honestly it has nothing to do with interpretations or anything like that it has to do with statistics ( shown many times to you how Muslims kill for there religion daily according to the last chart I posted 2500 murders a year well that is way more than daily ) as for interpretations heck all I need to know is on 9/11 as Americans went to work as any other normal day they where attacked by cowards not face to face or army to army but they killed innocent unsuspecting innocent people that there only crime was going to work, am I narrow minded probably but yall brought this stuff here if yall didn't quite honestly I couldn't care less what yall do to each other in other countries but it didn't go down that way yall brought it here

jimnyc

08-15-2013, 03:22 PM

Saudi Arabia, the Holy Land, infested with animals and cockroaches. What an inspiration for the muslim world!

jafar00

08-15-2013, 07:51 PM

Yes it does Jafar. Its a major force in Islam and its sole purpose is to advance Islam and destroy Israel. You can deny it all you like but does not change the reality. You are engaging in this and its not working..-Tyr

http://thumb10.shutterstock.com/thumb_small/1058333/126392426/stock-vector-illustration-of-cartoon-three-monkeys-see-hear-speak-no-evil-126392426.jpg

It is not a major force in Islam. It is a major political power in it's own little corner of the Middle East, but their association with Islam is nil.

Au contraire.

I don't see your problem. The solution is simple, Jafar .. to be credible, you need to at least be CONSISTENT. However much you rail against terrorists, expressing disapproval of the likes of Al Qaeda, or claim that the brutalities from Saudi Arabia are unrepresentative of Islam, the Islam you say is 'true' and 'peaceloving' .. and however myopically you dismiss Islamic terrorists virtually the world over (!) for THEIR terrorism .. STILL, YOU WON'T WITHDRAW ALL SUPPORT FOR HAMAS.

Hamas ARE Islamic. Their Charter makes it abundantly clear that their warlike, utterly Jihadist approach to their religion IS in the service of Islam. They even brainwash kids to become suicide bombers !!!!!

And their central aim, reason for being, is to launch terrorist attacks against a perceived enemy, one they hate out of long-standing, deeply-ingrained bigoted racism .. which is a sick joke in itself, because the so-called 'Palestinian people' are provably PART JEWISH !!

... so, you simultaneously OPPOSE, yet also SUPPORT, terrorists !

I say again: to be credible, you need to be consistent. STOP SUPPORTING HAMAS, AND TELL US THAT YOU HAVE .. this will be progress, Jafar.

Whether Hamas say they are Islamic or not is a moot point. A lot of what they do, suicide bombs included are not Islamic and you cannot prove otherwise.

Saudi Arabia, the Holy Land, infested with animals and cockroaches. What an inspiration for the muslim world!

You should separate the corrupt govt from the astray people and the holy land.

Drummond

08-15-2013, 09:18 PM

IWhether Hamas say they are Islamic or not is a moot point. A lot of what they do, suicide bombs included are not Islamic and you cannot prove otherwise.

I see you've evaded my challenge.

You, as - presumably ? - a loyal Muslim, loyal to your beliefs, continue to SUPPORT HAMAS. Certainly, you've offered no pledge to stop doing so, have you ?

You claim that their activities aren't Islamic. You claim not to be supportive of those actions. BUT, your support for Hamas, who are TERRORISTS, still CONTINUES.

So your position isn't a credible one. Any more, in fact, than is your insistence that all the Muslim terrorists who insist that they are being good Islamists when they terrorise, supposedly aren't.

You'd have us believe that you are right, and that Muslim terrorists across the world are not. Yet, you cannot reconcile your OWN support, AS A MUSLIM, for one such terrorist grouping ....

.... which makes NO sense at all.

Kathianne

08-15-2013, 09:56 PM

It is not a major force in Islam. It is a major political power in it's own little corner of the Middle East, but their association with Islam is nil.

Whether Hamas say they are Islamic or not is a moot point. A lot of what they do, suicide bombs included are not Islamic and you cannot prove otherwise.

You should separate the corrupt govt from the astray people and the holy land.

First point, bolded black, what are the things they do that you consider Islamic? "Care for the poor perhaps?" Those they send for suicide bombings? Reminds me of terrorists giving heart meds to a captive, so he'll live to be beheaded after a 'trial.' Crap.

2nd point, bolded in blue. Why should we have to do such? Why don't the people and their leaders provide clarity? Seriously, all that's necessary is to read your posts, I've no doubt your are not a terrorist and indeed deplore the violence. Yet you 'understand' the reasons behind such, even going as far as to defend groups that deploy said violence.

red states rule

08-16-2013, 02:09 AM

It is not a major force in Islam. It is a major political power in it's own little corner of the Middle East, but their association with Islam is nil.

Whether Hamas say they are Islamic or not is a moot point. A lot of what they do, suicide bombs included are not Islamic and you cannot prove otherwise.

You should separate the corrupt govt from the astray people and the holy land.

Using your "logic", the concentration camps had nothing to do with Nazi ideology and the final solution was put together by only a couple of zealots and had nothing to do with the German government

And all Germany was trying to do was rid itself of "undesirables"

Jafar, I do not know what is worse

The excuses you make for terrorists or the fact you actually believe the garbage you post

DragonStryk72

08-16-2013, 02:13 AM

Okay, I think I see what jafar is referring to when he is saying they are not following true Islam. Think back to the Puritan days here, when we had laws on the books for how often you had to go to church, and the Puritans got that whole witch hunt thing going.

They quoted Bible passages that, individually, seemed to prove them right, unless you actually read the Bible yourself and knew the passage and its context in the chapter. And they used it to some pretty horrible ends.

Then you had the Quakers who died out over their interpretation of being chaste, taking it to the point that they didn't reproduce. Sure, technically, lust is a sin, but God didn't mean for us to die out to avoid sex, and that's made clearly evident in other sections of the bible.

The problem is most people don't actually read the full bible, and its the same with the Quran. At most, they went over it in school, but mostly its coming from their religious leaders. Now, if their religious leaders are zealots and political plants, then you can see where the snowball starts gaining momentum.

Its much the same as preachers who used their power to push Leviticus to fuel hate, even knowing that Christ spoke directly against much of it, and the pharisees who beat the Hebrews down with it.

red states rule

08-16-2013, 02:18 AM

http://i2.wp.com/www.funnywallphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/islam.jpg?resize=500%2C400

jafar00

08-16-2013, 06:36 AM

The problem is most people don't actually read the full bible, and its the same with the Quran. At most, they went over it in school, but mostly its coming from their religious leaders. Now, if their religious leaders are zealots and political plants, then you can see where the snowball starts gaining momentum.

Its much the same as preachers who used their power to push Leviticus to fuel hate, even knowing that Christ spoke directly against much of it, and the pharisees who beat the Hebrews down with it.

At least someone understands what's going on. This is precisely how the Taliban and the like work. Many of them don't even know the basics of how to pray let alone read and comprehend the Qur'aan. They just see a guy in a beard and do what he says because they don't know any better.

Voted4Reagan

08-16-2013, 09:20 AM

No. The comprehension of them. Not just reading but understanding them in context etc...

Since Muslim literacy is around 35% to 40% that means 60% cant read and must rely on ORAL presentation.

This is how Muslims are kept indoctrinated in Islam. By not being able to learn and gain intellectual freedom.

Those presenting the Quran orally pervert the word to keep the masses ignorant and violent.

jimnyc

08-16-2013, 09:29 AM

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

08-16-2013, 09:47 AM

DragonStryk72

08-16-2013, 11:21 AM

Since Muslim literacy is around 35% to 40% that means 60% cant read and must rely on ORAL presentation.

This is how Muslims are kept indoctrinated in Islam. By not being able to learn and gain intellectual freedom.

Those presenting the Quran orally pervert the word to keep the masses ignorant and violent.

you also have to keep in mind that these countries also have no protections from religion, as we have here. There is no separation of church and state, and even if not outright theocracies, the governments are not far removed.

Then there's the tension in these places. the middle east has been constantly in one conflict or another for the past several decades. This means as well, that everyone's lost someone over there, and the religious leaders use this fact to their advantedge, giving them enemies to push their hate toward, instead of trying to help them through their grief to a place of peace as our own pastors and priests would. Really think about it, if a bomb dropped in the Iraq War killed your children and wife, how hard would it be for someone to get you to hate us? Doesn't matter why the bomb was dropped, even. You're vulnerable, and able to be taken advantedge of.

DragonStryk72

08-16-2013, 11:26 AM

So you're saying that the majority of muslims are stupid and/or illiterate. Now tell us something we don't know already!

I wouldn't go poking too hard at that one. Catholic church used to do the same thing. That's why the bible was kept in Latin for so long, because if someone knew their letters, only a fraction of those people could read it. This way, an Irishman or Scotsman who knew how to read their language, Gaelic, would still have to rely on the priest's interpretation of the bible.

jimnyc

08-16-2013, 11:34 AM

I wouldn't go poking too hard at that one. Catholic church used to do the same thing. That's why the bible was kept in Latin for so long, because if someone knew their letters, only a fraction of those people could read it. This way, an Irishman or Scotsman who knew how to read their language, Gaelic, would still have to rely on the priest's interpretation of the bible.

"Used to" being the key here. I'll happily condemn certain things from the Catholic past and/or people that performed any type of abuse or murder. But I'm not condemning the shit in Islam from long ago, I'm condemning what is a reality TODAY. Sure, one can bring up something Catholic being wrong today, from here or another country. And sure, again, I'll happily condemn it. But the horrid things happening from islam is about 56,547% higher. If a major reason is because they can't read or write, I'm simply saying it's not surprising in the slightest bit, as I've been watching so many of them be like animals for quite some time now.

DragonStryk72

08-16-2013, 12:50 PM

"Used to" being the key here. I'll happily condemn certain things from the Catholic past and/or people that performed any type of abuse or murder. But I'm not condemning the shit in Islam from long ago, I'm condemning what is a reality TODAY. Sure, one can bring up something Catholic being wrong today, from here or another country. And sure, again, I'll happily condemn it. But the horrid things happening from islam is about 56,547% higher. If a major reason is because they can't read or write, I'm simply saying it's not surprising in the slightest bit, as I've been watching so many of them be like animals for quite some time now.

Actually, if we wanna be real honest here, Ireland public schools are STILL run by the church, and we as a society still have the effects of those times, both good and ill. Bear in mind as well, it didn't get as bad here due to the power of the Constitution. A Constitution they don't have, and wouldn't understand if we explained it to them.

And if we want to really point it out, Islam are bored porch dogs compared to the shit we've pulled from the 1600s to 1800s. I mean, come on, only one guy's head get cut off? Just a hand? We used to murder and burn whole towns of "heretics" (That being people who believed in Jesus slightly differently than the Church did, like those godless Lutherans.), take camp followers (aka women that would be essentially the slaves of those who took them, get repeatedly raped, and left behind or killed later, assuming the squallid conditions and repeated rapes didn't finish the job.), and used inquisitions to strip people of their lands and titles, since anyone burned as a heretic had their property revert to the church.

I mean, seriously, Islam's positively boring about this kind of thing, if you really wanna get down to it. And sadly, we did it for much the same reason: Because the people we trusted as our religious leaders kept knowledge from us, in order to pursue their own greedy, hateful agendas. The people of these Islamic nations are victims of those that have abused their positions of trust and authority, just as we were at one point.

SO, how about we do the Christian thing, and not act like we're better than them, and maybe show some compassion, and understanding that once, we were not so far removed from them?

jimnyc

08-16-2013, 01:03 PM

Actually, if we wanna be real honest here, Ireland public schools are STILL run by the church, and we as a society still have the effects of those times, both good and ill. Bear in mind as well, it didn't get as bad here due to the power of the Constitution. A Constitution they don't have, and wouldn't understand if we explained it to them.

And if we want to really point it out, Islam are bored porch dogs compared to the shit we've pulled from the 1600s to 1800s. I mean, come on, only one guy's head get cut off? Just a hand? We used to murder and burn whole towns of "heretics" (That being people who believed in Jesus slightly differently than the Church did, like those godless Lutherans.), take camp followers (aka women that would be essentially the slaves of those who took them, get repeatedly raped, and left behind or killed later, assuming the squallid conditions and repeated rapes didn't finish the job.), and used inquisitions to strip people of their lands and titles, since anyone burned as a heretic had their property revert to the church.

I mean, seriously, Islam's positively boring about this kind of thing, if you really wanna get down to it. And sadly, we did it for much the same reason: Because the people we trusted as our religious leaders kept knowledge from us, in order to pursue their own greedy, hateful agendas. The people of these Islamic nations are victims of those that have abused their positions of trust and authority, just as we were at one point.

SO, how about we do the Christian thing, and not act like we're better than them, and maybe show some compassion, and understanding that once, we were not so far removed from them?

Sorry, I had nothing to do with any of the crap you pointed out and have already stated I would condemn any such actions. Again, TODAY, neither "we" nor "I" am doing anything, but COUNTLESS muslims are in COUNTLESS muslim nations. I'd prefer to address the current reality, although as already stated, I do condemn past actions. But I don't have compassion for anyone in Islam that abuses, kills, riots, terrorizes... And not having a constitution doesn't mean one must act like animals in order to achieve what they want. And we see countless of these animals, from abuses of women of the highest percentage, to endless terror attacks and other atrocities that seem to happen on a daily basis, and so, so many of them claiming to do so in the name of their religion.

jafar00

08-16-2013, 01:51 PM

jafar00

08-16-2013, 01:56 PM

Sorry, I had nothing to do with any of the crap you pointed out and have already stated I would condemn any such actions. Again, TODAY, neither "we" nor "I" am doing anything, but COUNTLESS muslims are in COUNTLESS muslim nations. I'd prefer to address the current reality, although as already stated, I do condemn past actions. But I don't have compassion for anyone in Islam that abuses, kills, riots, terrorizes... And not having a constitution doesn't mean one must act like animals in order to achieve what they want. And we see countless of these animals, from abuses of women of the highest percentage, to endless terror attacks and other atrocities that seem to happen on a daily basis, and so, so many of them claiming to do so in the name of their religion.

Just thank God (or your lucky stars if you prefer) that you are lucky enough to live in a country that is not beset by constant war, invasions and political manipulation by an outside superpower. Many Muslims live in such places through no fault of their own.

Drummond

08-16-2013, 02:19 PM

That's a bit of a wide generalisation isn't it?

With literacy rates like..
Turkey: 95.3%
Bahrain: 94.5%
Khazakstan: 99.5%
Turkmenistan: 98.8%
Qatar: 96.3%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate
etc...

The least literate are in deepest, darkest Africa in war torn and poor countries. No surprise there.

But what you've posted here qualifies as its own generalisation, Jafar.

There are Muslim societies which are deeply unhappy about seeing women educated to anything like the level many Muslim men could hope for. Here ... see this, and from (before you claim otherwise) a Muslim FRIENDLY site ..

http://www.minhaj.org/english/tid/8535/Women-Education-in-Islam-article-by-dr-raheeq-ahmad-rahiq-ahmed-abbasi-nazim-e-aala-mqi-minhaj-ul-quran.html

Gender inequality is a common accusation made against Islam and a disparity in educational opportunities between men and women in many Muslim countries is often cited as a primary example of this. Education is seen as one of the pivotal factors in determining the economic, social and political advancement of a society and if, those making up over fifty percent of that society, are denied such a basic fundamental right then needless to say human rights activists will seek to find reasons for this disparity. Religion, particularly Islam is cited as a major stumbling block for women’s advancement. Studies have shown that in many parts of Africa and South East Asia women’s acquisition of knowledge is either fervently opposed; regulated to secondary importance as compared to men or encumbered with so many restrictions as to make it almost impossible for female students to acquire a decent standard of education.

This is a sad reflection upon Muslims and the societies that we have built since knowledge is one of the important pillars upon which the edifice of Islam has been raised.

Being Muslim friendly, Jafar, it goes on to sanitise much as you are fond of doing. Nonetheless, you have something of the truth represented in the above quote. And with it ... some very backward attitudes towards women, the likes of which hasn't been mirrored in truly Christian countries for generations.

This is (apart from all the disgusting terrorism !!) maybe the biggest problem that Islam has - it simply REFUSES TO EVOLVE WITH THE TIMES, and remains locked in a mindset that's almost mind-bogglingly backward.

Drummond

08-16-2013, 02:26 PM

Just thank God (or your lucky stars if you prefer) that you are lucky enough to live in a country that is not beset by constant war, invasions and political manipulation by an outside superpower. Many Muslims live in such places through no fault of their own.

What, like Afghanistan, you mean ?

Did NO Afghan Muslims play a part in making Afghanistan the dysfunctional failed State that it became, courtesy of the Taliban and Al Qaeda ?? And did no Muslims from outside Afghanistan ever play their part, either ??

Let me guess. The Taliban were all Chinese .. yes ??

No, you can blame Muslims squarely for the great need they had to be dealt with, post-9/11.

Voted4Reagan

08-16-2013, 09:31 PM

jafar00

08-17-2013, 07:22 AM

But what you've posted here qualifies as its own generalisation, Jafar.

There are Muslim societies which are deeply unhappy about seeing women educated to anything like the level many Muslim men could hope for. Here ... see this, and from (before you claim otherwise) a Muslim FRIENDLY site ..

http://www.minhaj.org/english/tid/8535/Women-Education-in-Islam-article-by-dr-raheeq-ahmad-rahiq-ahmed-abbasi-nazim-e-aala-mqi-minhaj-ul-quran.html

Being Muslim friendly, Jafar, it goes on to sanitise much as you are fond of doing. Nonetheless, you have something of the truth represented in the above quote. And with it ... some very backward attitudes towards women, the likes of which hasn't been mirrored in truly Christian countries for generations.

This is (apart from all the disgusting terrorism !!) maybe the biggest problem that Islam has - it simply REFUSES TO EVOLVE WITH THE TIMES, and remains locked in a mindset that's almost mind-bogglingly backward.

Pamella Geller was involved. Figures....

What, like Afghanistan, you mean ?

Did NO Afghan Muslims play a part in making Afghanistan the dysfunctional failed State that it became, courtesy of the Taliban and Al Qaeda ?? And did no Muslims from outside Afghanistan ever play their part, either ??

Let me guess. The Taliban were all Chinese .. yes ??

No, you can blame Muslims squarely for the great need they had to be dealt with, post-9/11.

Afghanistan more than qualifies as a poor, war torn country that has been attacked and invaded many times. By the Taliban included.

And 9/11 was not done by Afghans. Weren't they (hijackers) all Arabs?

from October 2012 ( have shown you this before and you ran away from it)

http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/islamabad-freelance-columnist-800-million-muslims-out-of-1-4-billion-are-illiterate/

Dr Farrukh Salem: ’800 million Muslims out of 1.4 billion are illiterate’

Fifty-seven Muslim majority countries have an average of ten universities each for a total of less than 600 universities for 1.4 billion people; India has 8,407 universities, the U.S. has 5,758. From within 1.4 billion Muslims Abdus Salam and Ahmed Zewail are the only two Muslim men who won a Nobel Prize in physics and chemistry (Salam pursued his scientific work in Italy and the UK, Zewail at California Institute of Technology). Dr Salam in his home country is not even considered a Muslim.

Over the past 105 years, 1.4 billion Muslims have produced eight Nobel Laureates while a mere 14 million Jews have produced 167 Nobel Laureates. Of the 1.4 billion Muslims less than 300,000 qualify as ‘scientists’, and that converts to a ratio of 230 scientists per one million Muslims. The United States of America has 1.1 million scientists (4,099 per million); Japan has 700,000 (5,095 per million).

Fact: Of the 1.4 billion Muslims 800 million are illiterate (6 out of 10 Muslims cannot read). In Christendom, adult literacy rate stands at 78 percent.

And?

jimnyc

08-17-2013, 07:35 AM

Fact: Of the 1.4 billion Muslims 800 million are illiterate (6 out of 10 Muslims cannot read). In Christendom, adult literacy rate stands at 78 percent.

That's mind boggling, that well over half of such a group of people are illiterate, and sure as hell explains a lot. There appears to be some sort of correlation between illiteracy and the amount of people that turn into animals.

jafar00

08-17-2013, 03:16 PM

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

08-17-2013, 04:18 PM

from October 2012 ( have shown you this before and you ran away from it)

http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/islamabad-freelance-columnist-800-million-muslims-out-of-1-4-billion-are-illiterate/

Dr Farrukh Salem: ’800 million Muslims out of 1.4 billion are illiterate’

Fifty-seven Muslim majority countries have an average of ten universities each for a total of less than 600 universities for 1.4 billion people; India has 8,407 universities, the U.S. has 5,758. From within 1.4 billion Muslims Abdus Salam and Ahmed Zewail are the only two Muslim men who won a Nobel Prize in physics and chemistry (Salam pursued his scientific work in Italy and the UK, Zewail at California Institute of Technology). Dr Salam in his home country is not even considered a Muslim.

Over the past 105 years, 1.4 billion Muslims have produced eight Nobel Laureates while a mere 14 million Jews have produced 167 Nobel Laureates. Of the 1.4 billion Muslims less than 300,000 qualify as ‘scientists’, and that converts to a ratio of 230 scientists per one million Muslims. The United States of America has 1.1 million scientists (4,099 per million); Japan has 700,000 (5,095 per million).

Fact: Of the 1.4 billion Muslims 800 million are illiterate (6 out of 10 Muslims cannot read). In Christendom, adult literacy rate stands at 78 percent. Yes, the greatness of Islam is well over have its followers are told what the Koran states rather then knowing because they can read it! Of that small number that can actually read how many are in the Western civilized nations? Very likely the majority of that minority are Westernized muslims! Which explains why the defenders of Islam can get by with claiming it is just a few radicals doing the evil deeds. Those that can actually read the Koran are "tamer/more peaceful" because the Koran teaches them to be in order to pull off the deception of Allah's enemies. Do not think for a second they are not taught this..-Tyr

aboutime

08-17-2013, 05:13 PM

Says who? A hate blog with it's agenda clearly on the front page?

No jafar. It's a statement you always dance around, and are never willing to admit. If the statement was so wrong. Why then did YOU feel a need to leave the Middle Eastern nations, and go to Australia?
And, no. I won't take the excuse of Employment Opportunities either.

What is on the front page, seems to be nothing but Islamic, Muslim hatred being displayed. Just as the Muslim Brotherhood finds itself being rejected from Egypt.
If things were, as good as you pretend they are educationally. Why would you, or any other Muslim need to be part of an Exodus from your Wonderful, Peace Loving lands???

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

08-17-2013, 05:21 PM

aboutime

08-17-2013, 06:26 PM

Allah commands them to go forth to infiltrate enemy territory. To build a fortress inside and populate it for a later takeover. Could be Jafar felt it his Islamic duty. According to most experts on Islam the muslims do -EVERYTHING- in accordance to how it will advance Islam ahead of anything or everything! -Tyr

Tyr. No wonder people like jafar get so angry when we tell them the truth, and call them the Enemy they fear themselves?
If they disobey the tenants of Islam...they become the enemy. It's a Win-Win for Muslimship.

Drummond

08-18-2013, 12:37 PM

Pamella Geller was involved. Figures....

Meaning ?

Jafar .. am I to now understand that you'll EVEN try to distance yourself from MUSLIM FRIENDLY sites, when they tell you a truth you'd rather not concede ??

Makes your 'they're hate blog sites' defence rather pointless, doesn't it ?

Afghanistan more than qualifies as a poor, war torn country that has been attacked and invaded many times. By the Taliban included.

Afghanistan was and is a country full of Muslims. Run by Muslims (except when the Soviet Union invaded, of course), for Muslims, according to Islamic rule. And it turned into a Failed State ... a base where Al Qaeda could freely operate ... dominated by ISLAMIC RULE.

And 9/11 was not done by Afghans. Weren't they (hijackers) all Arabs?

Perhaps if Afghans hadn't enabled Al Qaeda in the first place, the attacks might have been prevented ?

aboutime

08-18-2013, 12:50 PM

Meaning ?

Jafar .. am I to now understand that you'll EVEN try to distance yourself from MUSLIM FRIENDLY sites, when they tell you a truth you'd rather not concede ??

Makes your 'they're hate blog sites' defence rather pointless, doesn't it ?

Afghanistan was and is a country full of Muslims. Run by Muslims (except when the Soviet Union invaded, of course), for Muslims, according to Islamic rule. And it turned into a Failed State ... a base where Al Qaeda could freely operate ... dominated by ISLAMIC RULE.

Perhaps if Afghans hadn't enabled Al Qaeda in the first place, the attacks might have been prevented ?

Sir Drummond. Once again. We must keep in mind; when talking with jafar about Afghanistan, and how poor it is as a nation. How jafar may just enjoy that so-called Poverty as he reaps the benefits of successful POPPY plant products that make's it's way around the world, and into the blood-stream of millions of Poor, Impoverished Afghan's.
Sorta like our American expression comes from for jafar, as in
"Laughing, all the way to the bank".

jafar00

08-18-2013, 03:22 PM

No jafar. It's a statement you always dance around, and are never willing to admit. If the statement was so wrong. Why then did YOU feel a need to leave the Middle Eastern nations, and go to Australia?
And, no. I won't take the excuse of Employment Opportunities either.

What is on the front page, seems to be nothing but Islamic, Muslim hatred being displayed. Just as the Muslim Brotherhood finds itself being rejected from Egypt.
If things were, as good as you pretend they are educationally. Why would you, or any other Muslim need to be part of an Exodus from your Wonderful, Peace Loving lands???

I was born in Australia and there are 7 generations of Australians on my Father's side. You assume much.

Meaning ?

Jafar .. am I to now understand that you'll EVEN try to distance yourself from MUSLIM FRIENDLY sites, when they tell you a truth you'd rather not concede ??

Makes your 'they're hate blog sites' defence rather pointless, doesn't it ?

Pamella Geller and bigots like her have no credibility.

Afghanistan was and is a country full of Muslims. Run by Muslims (except when the Soviet Union invaded, of course), for Muslims, according to Islamic rule. And it turned into a Failed State ... a base where Al Qaeda could freely operate ... dominated by ISLAMIC RULE.

Perhaps if Afghans hadn't enabled Al Qaeda in the first place, the attacks might have been prevented ?

Afghanistan may be a country full of Muslims, but it has not been ruled by Islam. You cannot say the Taliban are an Islamic group and keep a straight face. They are the embodiment of pure evil.

tailfins

08-18-2013, 03:59 PM

I was born in Australia and there are 7 generations of Australians on my Father's side. You assume much.

Pamella Geller and bigots like her have no credibility.

Afghanistan may be a country full of Muslims, but it has not been ruled by Islam. You cannot say the Taliban are an Islamic group and keep a straight face. They are the embodiment of pure evil.

Incompetency has caused as much damage as terrorism. Isn't it interesting that recently a spy manual from the 1940s or 1950s was uncovered: Some of the instructions were to spread discontent and be incompetent in the "host" organizations. I see up close and personal the gap between homegrown talent and H1B visa talent here in the US. I seek out H1B teams to be a part of so I can work with knowledgeable people. I did a quick search at PayScale.com and noticed AUS120K was a typical income for an accomplished, experienced C# (C-Sharp) person over there in Australia. What kind of housing will AUS 2,000 per month get you?

jafar00

08-18-2013, 04:20 PM

Incompetency has caused as much damage as terrorism. Isn't it interesting that recently a spy manual from the 1940s or 1950s was uncovered: Some of the instructions were to spread discontent and be incompetent in the "host" organizations. I see up close and personal the gap between homegrown talent and H1B visa talent here in the US. I seek out H1B teams to be a part of so I can work with knowledgeable people. I did a quick search at PayScale.com and noticed AUS120K was a typical income for an accomplished, experienced C# (C-Sharp) person over there in Australia. What kind of housing will AUS 2,000 per month get you?

Precisely. Those who are doing terrorism while screaming Allahu Akbar are working against Muslims.

$2k/mo rent will get you a run down 2 bedroom flat/unit in Sydney's Outer West where we have all the drug dealers and Bikie gangs shooting at each other. nobody lives there given a choice. The more affluent North is the place to be.

Drummond

08-18-2013, 04:31 PM

Precisely. Those who are doing terrorism while screaming Allahu Akbar are working against Muslims.

$2k/mo rent will get you a run down 2 bedroom flat/unit in Sydney's Outer West where we have all the drug dealers and Bikie gangs shooting at each other. nobody lives there given a choice. The more affluent North is the place to be.

'Yes', and Abu Hamza was an MI5 'stooge' ..... :laugh:

I'm still laughing about that one !! :laugh::laugh2::laugh:

Abbey Marie

08-18-2013, 04:31 PM

That's mind boggling, that well over half of such a group of people are illiterate, and sure as hell explains a lot. There appears to be some sort of correlation between illiteracy and the amount of people that turn into animals.

It is my understanding that schools recently built for girls in Afghanistan by a westerner with donated funds, were subsequently destroyed by Islamic Afghanis. Where shall we lay the blame for that? Illiteracy? Poverty? The government? Israel? America? It doesn't take a genius to figure out is the barbaric Islamic attitude towards women that is responsible.

jimnyc

08-18-2013, 04:35 PM

It is my understanding that schools recently built for girls in Afghanistan by a westerner with donated funds, were subsequently destroyed by Islamic Afghanis. Where shall we lay the blame for that? Illiteracy? Poverty? The government? Israel? America? It doesn't take a genius to figure out is the barbaric Islamic attitude towards women that is responsible.

Islam as a WHOLE are downright disgusting towards women. From education to marriage to TONS of rights in EVERY islamic shit country.

Larrymc

08-18-2013, 05:34 PM

Are you going to do this in EVERY thread? Hamas doesn't represent Islam BTW.Why are they called "Islamist?"

Drummond

08-18-2013, 05:36 PM

Islam as a WHOLE are downright disgusting towards women. From education to marriage to TONS of rights in EVERY islamic shit country.

... assuming, of course, that the women even SURVIVE it !! Honour killings come to mind -

Drummond

08-18-2013, 05:46 PM

Why are they called "Islamist?"

As I have posted in another thread ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

After the Intifada, Hamas was established. The Islamic Resistance Movement, or Hamas, founded in 1987 in Gaza, is a wing of the Brotherhood, formed out of Brotherhood-affiliated charities and social institutions that had gained a strong foothold among the local population. During the First Intifada (1987–93), Hamas militarized and transformed into one of the strongest Palestinian militant groups.

The Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip in 2007 was the first time since the Sudanese coup of 1989 that brought Omar al-Bashir to power, that a Muslim Brotherhood group ruled a significant geographic territory.

I believe what's now required is for Jafar to prove that the Muslim Brotherhood, ISN'T ISLAMIC !!

Good luck with THAT one, Jafar !! :laugh::laugh::laugh2::laugh::lol:

Larrymc

08-18-2013, 05:55 PM

As I have posted in another thread ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

I believe what's now required is for Jafar to prove that the Muslim Brotherhood, ISN'T ISLAMIC !!

Good luck with THAT one, Jafar !! :laugh::laugh::laugh2::laugh::lol:I saw that, i was wondering how Jafar would answer that.

aboutime

08-18-2013, 06:31 PM

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

08-18-2013, 10:52 PM

It is my understanding that schools recently built for girls in Afghanistan by a westerner with donated funds, were subsequently destroyed by Islamic Afghanis. Where shall we lay the blame for that? Illiteracy? Poverty? The government? Israel? America? It doesn't take a genius to figure out is the barbaric Islamic attitude towards women that is responsible. Such savages are the true believers in Islam. They follow the Quran and do as it instructs them. Yes the Quran teaches women are livestock to be managed. They are to be humiliated and punished for the slightest infraction of a man's wishes. Such is why Islam has never progressed past its barbaric ,murder the world stage and never will. -Tyr

jafar00

08-18-2013, 11:16 PM

'Yes', and Abu Hamza was an MI5 'stooge' ..... :laugh:

I'm still laughing about that one !! :laugh::laugh2::laugh:

He sure as hell wasn't working for the benefit of Muslims was he?

It is my understanding that schools recently built for girls in Afghanistan by a westerner with donated funds, were subsequently destroyed by Islamic Afghanis. Where shall we lay the blame for that? Illiteracy? Poverty? The government? Israel? America? It doesn't take a genius to figure out is the barbaric Islamic attitude towards women that is responsible.

Yet every other Islamic country has schools full of women. The Afghans doing that are misguided and need to be re-educated.

Education for both men and women is very important in Islam. In fact, the Prophet Mohamed (saw) used to praise the women of Medina for their pursuit of knowledge. His wife Aicha went on to become one of Islam's greatest scholars and teacher of women after the Prophet (saw) died.

But don't take my word for it. Please read the following. It will help remove the blindfold of hate you have on.

Gender inequality is a common accusation made against Islam and a disparity in educational opportunities between men and women in many Muslim countries is often cited as a primary example of this. Education is seen as one of the pivotal factors in determining the economic, social and political advancement of a society and if, those making up over fifty percent of that society, are denied such a basic fundamental right then needless to say human rights activists will seek to find reasons for this disparity. Religion, particularly Islam is cited as a major stumbling block for women’s advancement. Studies have shown that in many parts of Africa and South East Asia women’s acquisition of knowledge is either fervently opposed; regulated to secondary importance as compared to men or encumbered with so many restrictions as to make it almost impossible for female students to acquire a decent standard of education.
This is a sad reflection upon Muslims and the societies that we have built since knowledge is one of the important pillars upon which the edifice of Islam has been raised. The very fact that the first revelation upon the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) contained the commandment to ‘read’ speaks volumes of the emphasis Islam lays on education. Within Islam there is no disagreement found on acquisition of knowledge being binding and obligatory. The importance and excellence of knowledge has been highlighted both directly and indirectly in over five hundred places in the Holy Qur’an. Indeed one of the essential duties and responsibilities of Prophethood was the dissemination of knowledge and wisdom to all. Allah Almighty says:
﴿كَمَآ أَرْسَلْنَا فِيكُمْ رَسُولاً مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُواْ عَلَيْكُمْ ءَايَــــٰـــتِنَا وَيُزَكِّيكُمْ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ ٱلْكِتَــــٰـــبَ وَٱلْحِكْمَةَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُم مَّا لَمْ تَكُونُواْ تَعْلَمُونَ﴾
Likewise, We have sent you (Our) Messenger (blessings and peace be upon him) from amongst yourselves who recites to you Our Revelations and purifies and sanctifies (your hearts and ill-commanding selves) and teaches you the Book and inculcates in you logic and wisdom and enlightens you (on the mysteries of spiritual gnosis and divine truth) which you did not know. [al-Baqara, 2:151.]
﴿هُوَ ٱلَّذِى بَعَثَ فِى ٱلْأُمِّيِّـينَ رَسُولاً مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ ءَايَــــٰـــتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ ٱلْكِتَــــٰـــبَ وَٱلْحِكْمَةَ وَإِن كَانُواْ مِن قَبْلُ لَفِى ضَلَــــٰـــلٍ مُّبِينٍ﴾
He is the One Who sent a (Glorious) Messenger (blessings and peace be upon him) amongst the illiterate people from amongst themselves who recites to them His Revelations and cleanses and purifies them (outwardly and inwardly) and teaches them the Book and wisdom. Indeed, they were in open error before (his most welcome arrival). [al-Jumu‘a, 62:2.]
A basic principle of Islamic Shariah states that when a commandment is revealed, even if the masculine form of word is used the female gender is also included in this commandment. If this principle is rejected then the basic pillars of Islam such as prayer, fasting, pilgrimage and alms-due will become null and void for women. So though God Almighty and the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) use the masculine form of sentence to describe most of the commandments, women are also bound to act and follow those rules and regulations.
The study of these verses clearly shows that the prophetic responsibilities of Prophet Muhammad (blessings and peace be upon him) through his Prophethood included recital of the verses, purgation of the self, education of the Book and wisdom and communication of knowledge. Four duties out of five directly talk of knowledge whereas the second and fifth in the sequence refers to a particular kind of knowledge, which is technically defined as mysticism or sufism. However if the doors of acquiring knowledge are closed for women or unjustified restrictions are imposed upon this acquisition, which religion will they act upon? How can they come to know the nature of the verses that have been revealed to them? How will they attain the wisdom and hikma that Allah Almighty wished them to know through the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him)? How are they to teach the fundamentals of the faith to their children if they have no knowledge of it themselves?
The Holy Qur’an also states:
﴿قُلْ هَلْ يَسْتَوِى ٱلَّذِينَ يَعْلَمُونَ وَٱلَّذِينَ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ* إِنَّمَا يَتَذَكَّرُ أُوْلُواْ ٱلْأَلْبَــــٰـــبِ﴾
Say: ‘Can those who have knowledge and those who do not be alike?’ So only the wise do receive the admonition. [al-Zumar, 39:9.]
﴿إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى ٱللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ ٱلْعُلَمَــــٰۤـــؤُاْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ غَفُورٌ﴾
So only those of His servants who have knowledge (of these realities with a vision and outlook) fear Him. Surely, Allah is Almighty, Most Forgiving. [Fatir, 35:28.]
None of these verses specify that only ‘wise men’ receive admonition or that only ‘male servants’ who have knowledge fear Him. If reference to the importance of knowledge has not been restricted within the purview of men by Almighty God, why do we persevere in creating them ourselves? A number of Prophetic traditions also talk directly about knowledge being obligatory and binding in character.
The Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) said:
«طَلَبُ الْعِلْمِ فَرِيضَةٌ عَلَى كُلِّ مُسْلِمٍ».
Acquisition of knowledge is binding on all Muslims (both men and women without any discrimination). [Narrated by Ibn Maja in al-Sunan, 1:81 §224.]
The Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) also said at another place:
«اُطْلُبُوا الْعِلْمَ وَلَوْ بِالصِّينِ».
Acquire knowledge even if you may have to go to China for it. [Narrated by al-Bazzar in al-Musnad, 1:175 §95.]
He (blessings and peace be upon him) said at another place:
«مَنْ سَلَكَ طَرِيقًا يَلْتَمِسُ فِيهِ عِلْمًا سَهَّلَ اللهُ لَهُ بِهِ طَرِيقًا إِلَى الْجَنَّةِ».
Allah Almighty makes the path to paradise easier for him who walks on it for getting knowledge. [Narrated by Muslim in al-Sahih, 4:2074 §2699.]
It is apparent from the Holy Qur’an and hadiths that the acquisition of knowledge is obligatory for women in the same way as in the case of men. The study of the life of the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) also shows that he himself made special arrangements for the education and training of women.
Abu Sa‘id al-Khudri reports that some women said to the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him): ‘men have gone ahead of us (in terms of acquisition of knowledge). Therefore, appoint a special day for our benefit as well.’ The Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) fixed one day for them. He (blessings and peace be upon him) would meet them on that day, advise them and educate them about commandments of Allah Almighty.[Narrated by al-Bukhari in al-Sahih, 1:50.]
‘A’isha al-Siddiqa, mother of the faithful, was a hadith-narrator, scholar, intellectual and jurist of great standing. She is believed to have reported 2,210 traditions. Abu Hurayra, ‘Abd Allah b. ‘Amr and Anas b. Malik (may Allah be well pleased with them) were the only ones from amongst male hadith-narrators who had narrated more traditions than she did. This itself illustrates that women could not only teach women but also men after fulfilling certain preconditions.
‘A’isha bint Talha (may Allah be well pleased with her) reports:
I stayed with ‘A’isha. People from every city would come to me including the old ones (who would put forward questions) because they knew that I am her servant. And the students who were young would treat me like their sister and would present gifts (to ‘A’isha through me). Many would also write me letters (so that I could reply them back after soliciting answers from ‘A’isha. I would submit: O aunt! Mr so and so has written a letter and there is his present as well. ‘A’isha would say in reply to this: O daughter! Answer his query and give him present in exchange as well. If you have nothing to give, let me know, I will give. So she would return (the present in exchange and I would send it back along with the letter). [Narrated by al-Bukhari in al-Adab al-Mufrad.]
It is important to note here that the concept of knowledge in Islam covers a broad spectrum of subjects. All interpreters of the Holy Qur’an are in agreement that the first five verses of chapter al-‘Alaq form the beginning of the sending of revelation:
﴿ٱقْرَأْ بِٱسْمِ رَبِّكَ ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَ. خَلَقَ ٱلْإِنسَــــٰـــنَ مِنْ عَلَقٍ. ٱقْرَأْ وَرَبُّكَ ٱلْأَكْرَمُ. ٱلَّذِى عَلَّمَ بِٱلْقَلَمِ. عَلَّمَ ٱلْإِنسَــــٰـــنَ مَا لَمْ يَعْلَمْ﴾
(O Beloved!) Read (commencing) with the Name of Allah, Who has created (everything). He created man from a hanging mass (clinging) like a leech (to the mother’s womb). Read, and your Lord is Most Generous, Who taught man (reading and writing) by the pen, Who (besides that) taught man (all that) which he did not know. [al-‘Alaq, 96:1–5.]
The first commandment contained in these verses relates to ‘reading’ as a part of a process of acquisition of knowledge. In addition to the description of Allah Almighty being the Creator and Sustainer, two branches of knowledge are mentioned, embryology and sociology. Whilst indicating knowledge of biology and morality in these verses, the Qur’an explains the Islamic concept of knowledge as being very vast. Acquisition of knowledge embraces within in its fold all of its branches, both religious and secular, which are productive for mankind. It is important to note that this is not restricted to the purview of the traditional religious sciences. Instead many verses of the Holy Qur’an invite man to ponder and meditate over the creation of the universe. Thus it would be wrong to allow women to just partake in learning of the religious sciences and prohibit her from gaining a wider scope in her learning.
Another misnomer is the view that suggests women are only allowed to gain knowledge from female teachers and that instruction from men is prohibited due to the demands of purdah. Although an ideal environment would dictate women teaching women, we do not live in an ideal world where this is always possible. Since Islam is a religion for all nations and all times, it is based on practical reality. There is no stipulation that only women can teach other women or a bar regarding male teachers for women. If the rules of attire and dress are properly observed then men can teach female students under Sharia. This is also apparent from the above mentioned hadith where the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) himself made arrangements for the education and training of women where one day was particularly specified for women in the Prophet’s Mosque.
Indeed those who quote the verses of the Holy Qur’an regarding the veil as an argument against women leaving the home in pursuit of knowledge are also severely misguided. If attending a school or college in the pursuit of knowledge constitutes breaking the laws of purdah then anytime a women steps out of her home would entail the same breakage of laws. This would of course create a ludicrous situation where a woman could never leave her home for any reason. If one looks at the verses regarding the veil Allah Almighty states:
﴿وَقُل لِّلْمُؤْمِنَــــٰـــتِ يَغْضُضْنَ مِنْ أَبْصَــــٰـــرِهِنَّ وَيَحْفَظْنَ فُرُوجَهُنَّ وَلَا يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلَّا مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا*﴾
And direct the believing women that they (too) must keep their eyes lowered and guard their chastity, and must not show off their adornments and beautification except that (part of it) which becomes visible itself. [al-Nur, 24:31.]
﴿يَــــٰۤـــأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّبِىُّ قُل لِّأَزْوَاجِكَ وَبَنَاتِكَ وَنِسَآءِ ٱلْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَــــٰـــبِيبِهِنَّ ذَالِكَ أَدْنَىٰۤ أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلَا يُؤْذَيْنَ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ غَفُورًا رَّحِيمًا﴾
O Prophet! Say to your wives, your daughters and the women of believers that, (whilst going out,) they should draw their veils as coverings over them. It is more likely that this way they may be recognized (as pious, free women), and may not be hurt (considered by mistake as roving slave girls). And Allah is Most Forgiving, Ever-Merciful. [12 al-Ahzab, 33:59.]
Neither of these verses prohibits a woman leaving her house. In fact they merely stipulate that when she leaves the house she should observe the veil whilst outside. Indeed these commandments are themselves a great justification for women stepping out of their homes and becoming active members within society. Moreover if the act of a woman stepping out of her home was prohibited, why did the revered wives of the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) participate in battles? If we study the following traditions we come to know the range of functions women performed during the period of Prophethood.
Anas b. Malik (may Allah be well pleased with him) narrates: when people became separated from the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him), I saw ‘A’isha bint Abi Bakr and Umm Sulaym (may Allah be well pleased with them) were completely covered in attire. They would bring water-bags upon their back, offer it to the thirsty Muslims and then return. They would bring water-bags again and made the thirsty Muslims drink it.[Narrated by al-Bukhari in al-Sahih, 3:1055 §2724.]
Umm ‘Atiya (may Allah be well pleased with her) says: I participated in six battles with the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him). I would pursue the Ghazis in their tracks, cook food for them and do dressing for the injured and make arrangements for treatment of the diseased. [Narrated by al-Bukhari in al-Sahih, 1:333 §937 & 2:595 §1569.]
This practice continued in the period of the rightly-guided Caliphs after the period of Prophethood. It is related in the books of sira that women were part of the parliament (majlis al-shura) during the period of ‘Umar b. al-Khattab (may Allah be well pleased with him). [Narrated by ‘Abd al-Razzaq in al-Musannaf, 6:180 §10420.] During the rule of ‘Uthman (may Allah be well pleased with him), women were designated as ambassadors to other countries. [Related by al-Tabari in Tarikh al-Umam wa al-Muluk, 2:601.]
In a similar manner the history of Islam is replete with the mention of women who obtained distinguished positions in the fields of hadith sciences, the science of interpretation, jurisprudence, medical science, poetry and calligraphy. [Shaykh-ul-Islam Dr Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, Women Rights in Islam.]
It is thus imperative, if a nation wishes to be successful and move towards a sustainable reality, the women of that society must be given every opportunity to attain knowledge and education which is not only her due but a right that has been ordained to her by Almighty Allah.

Islam as a WHOLE are downright disgusting towards women. From education to marriage to TONS of rights in EVERY islamic shit country.

Bad treatment of women is not in Islam so you can't call it Islamic.

Why are they called "Islamist?"

It's a phrase used to describe Muslims who happen to be politicians.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

08-19-2013, 06:52 AM

He sure as hell wasn't working for the benefit of Muslims was he?

Yet every other Islamic country has schools full of women. The Afghans doing that are misguided and need to be re-educated.

Education for both men and women is very important in Islam. In fact, the Prophet Mohamed (saw) used to praise the women of Medina for their pursuit of knowledge. His wife Aicha went on to become one of Islam's greatest scholars and teacher of women after the Prophet (saw) died.

But don't take my word for it. Please read the following. It will help remove the blindfold of hate you have on.

Bad treatment of women is not in Islam so you can't call it Islamic.

It's a phrase used to describe Muslims who happen to be politicians.
All that did was prove that Islam commands that all believers are to be taught to fear and obey Allah. It gave no specifics as to females and it also gave no specifics as to how they should be treated. Example of it being about women being also bound ,that's an indication of servitude not equality. Also bound by the law isn't equality for women , Hoss. -----------------------------------------------
So though God Almighty and the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) use the masculine form of sentence to describe most of the commandments, women are also bound to act and follow those rules and regulations. -------------------------------------- What you did was quote something then give your interpretation of its meaning , no different that the thousands of other Islamic leaders that interpret Koran saying beat your women and keep them in line.. Which is exactly what has been pointed out ,the inhuman treatment of women in Islam. A reaffirmation that all humans are bound by the law is not proof of a command that women are to be treated as equals. 2+2=4 not 5 or 6!! -Tyr

jafar00

08-19-2013, 03:58 PM

All that did was prove that Islam commands that all believers are to be taught to fear and obey Allah. It gave no specifics as to females and it also gave no specifics as to how they should be treated. Example of it being about women being also bound ,that's an indication of servitude not equality. Also bound by the law isn't equality for women , Hoss. ----------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------- What you did was quote something then give your interpretation of its meaning , no different that the thousands of other Islamic leaders that interpret Koran saying beat your women and keep them in line.. Which is exactly what has been pointed out ,the inhuman treatment of women in Islam. A reaffirmation that all humans are bound by the law is not proof of a command that women are to be treated as equals. 2+2=4 not 5 or 6!! -Tyr

O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. (4:16)

O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you. (4:1)

"Assuredly, women are the twin halves of men." (Sahih reported by Abu-Dawud (RA) The Prophet of Islam (peace be upon him) said, He said, “Yes, for women are the twin halves of men.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 113; Ahmad, 25663. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi)

And so on. Islam gave women rights and equality long before Europe caught up.

Marcus Aurelius

08-19-2013, 04:08 PM

O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. (4:16)

O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you. (4:1)

"Assuredly, women are the twin halves of men." (Sahih reported by Abu-Dawud (RA) The Prophet of Islam (peace be upon him) said, He said, “Yes, for women are the twin halves of men.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 113; Ahmad, 25663. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi)

And so on. Islam gave women rights and equality long before Europe caught up.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Slavery

"Slavery is a part of Islam...(those who argue that slavery is abolished are) ignorant, not scholars. They are merely writers. Whoever says such things is an infidel."
Saudi Sheikh Saleh Al-Fawzan, member of the Senior Council of Clerics, 2003 (http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2003/11/saudi-religious-leader-calls-for-slaverys)

Islam Permits Slavery These Hadiths show how Islam explicitly and implicitly permits slavery.

Islam Permits Raping Captives and Slaves Main Article: Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Rape (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Rape)

Muhammad Had No Animosity With Slavery Mohammed regularly met with and commanded slaves without asking the slave's master to free the slave even though it was within his power to do so.

Marrying Slaves Narrated Abu Haraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "A lady slave should not be given in marriage until she is consulted, and a virgin should not be given in marriage until her permission is granted." The people said, "How will she express her permission?" The Prophet said, "By keeping silent (when asked her consent)." Some people said, "If a man, by playing a trick, presents two false witnesses before the judge to testify that he has married a matron with her consent and the judge confirms his marriage, and the husband is sure that he has never married her (before), then such a marriage will be considered as a legal one and he may live with her as husband."
Sahih Bukhari (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Compendium_of_Muslim_Texts) 9:86:100 (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/086-sbt.php#009.086.100)

jahil may now go fuck a camel.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

08-19-2013, 06:27 PM

jafar00

08-19-2013, 10:25 PM

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Slavery

jahil may now go fuck a camel.

Sure. Quote your cherry picked Wahhabi sources. If we were talking about Wahhabism I might agree with you but we are talking about Islam here.

A religion born from the mind of a man that could not read or write Jafar. So answer this Jafar, did Allah command The great Prophet to learn to read and to write and did the great Prophet ever do that? Answer please because there is a reason I ask.--Tyr

The very first revelation that Mohamed (saw) received was...

اقْرَأْ بِاسْمِ رَبِّكَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ
Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth (96:1)

Marcus Aurelius

08-20-2013, 06:49 AM

Sure. Quote your cherry picked Wahhabi sources. If we were talking about Wahhabism I might agree with you but we are talking about Islam here.

Once again, as usual, Jahil is shown parts of the Qur'an, hadiths, etc. that go against 'his' vision of Islam, and he denounces them as nonsense. What a fucking surprise.

Mohammed himself could come down from heaven, plop a copy of the Qur'an down in front of Jahuil, and recite verses... and if they did not conform to Jahil's vision of Islam, Jahil would claim Mohammed 'wasn't really Islamic'.

Dumb ass.

Marcus Aurelius

08-20-2013, 06:52 AM

But don't take my word for it. Please read the following. It will help remove the blindfold of hate you have on.

Gender inequality is a common accusation made against Islam and a disparity in educational opportunities between men and women in many Muslim countries is often cited as a primary example of this. Education is seen as one of the pivotal factors in determining the economic, social and political advancement of a society and if, those making up over fifty percent of that society, are denied such a basic fundamental right then needless to say human rights activists will seek to find reasons for this disparity. Religion, particularly Islam is cited as a major stumbling block for women’s advancement. Studies have shown that in many parts of Africa and South East Asia women’s acquisition of knowledge is either fervently opposed; regulated to secondary importance as compared to men or encumbered with so many restrictions as to make it almost impossible for female students to acquire a decent standard of education.
This is a sad reflection upon Muslims and the societies that we have built since knowledge is one of the important pillars upon which the edifice of Islam has been raised. The very fact that the first revelation upon the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) contained the commandment to ‘read’ speaks volumes of the emphasis Islam lays on education. Within Islam there is no disagreement found on acquisition of knowledge being binding and obligatory. The importance and excellence of knowledge has been highlighted both directly and indirectly in over five hundred places in the Holy Qur’an. Indeed one of the essential duties and responsibilities of Prophethood was the dissemination of knowledge and wisdom to all. Allah Almighty says:
﴿كَمَآ أَرْسَلْنَا فِيكُمْ رَسُولاً مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُواْ عَلَيْكُمْ ءَايَــــٰـــتِنَا وَيُزَكِّيكُمْ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ ٱلْكِتَــــٰـــبَ وَٱلْحِكْمَةَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُم مَّا لَمْ تَكُونُواْ تَعْلَمُونَ﴾
Likewise, We have sent you (Our) Messenger (blessings and peace be upon him) from amongst yourselves who recites to you Our Revelations and purifies and sanctifies (your hearts and ill-commanding selves) and teaches you the Book and inculcates in you logic and wisdom and enlightens you (on the mysteries of spiritual gnosis and divine truth) which you did not know. [al-Baqara, 2:151.]
﴿هُوَ ٱلَّذِى بَعَثَ فِى ٱلْأُمِّيِّـينَ رَسُولاً مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ ءَايَــــٰـــتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ ٱلْكِتَــــٰـــبَ وَٱلْحِكْمَةَ وَإِن كَانُواْ مِن قَبْلُ لَفِى ضَلَــــٰـــلٍ مُّبِينٍ﴾
He is the One Who sent a (Glorious) Messenger (blessings and peace be upon him) amongst the illiterate people from amongst themselves who recites to them His Revelations and cleanses and purifies them (outwardly and inwardly) and teaches them the Book and wisdom. Indeed, they were in open error before (his most welcome arrival). [al-Jumu‘a, 62:2.]
A basic principle of Islamic Shariah states that when a commandment is revealed, even if the masculine form of word is used the female gender is also included in this commandment. If this principle is rejected then the basic pillars of Islam such as prayer, fasting, pilgrimage and alms-due will become null and void for women. So though God Almighty and the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) use the masculine form of sentence to describe most of the commandments, women are also bound to act and follow those rules and regulations.
The study of these verses clearly shows that the prophetic responsibilities of Prophet Muhammad (blessings and peace be upon him) through his Prophethood included recital of the verses, purgation of the self, education of the Book and wisdom and communication of knowledge. Four duties out of five directly talk of knowledge whereas the second and fifth in the sequence refers to a particular kind of knowledge, which is technically defined as mysticism or sufism. However if the doors of acquiring knowledge are closed for women or unjustified restrictions are imposed upon this acquisition, which religion will they act upon? How can they come to know the nature of the verses that have been revealed to them? How will they attain the wisdom and hikma that Allah Almighty wished them to know through the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him)? How are they to teach the fundamentals of the faith to their children if they have no knowledge of it themselves?
The Holy Qur’an also states:
﴿قُلْ هَلْ يَسْتَوِى ٱلَّذِينَ يَعْلَمُونَ وَٱلَّذِينَ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ* إِنَّمَا يَتَذَكَّرُ أُوْلُواْ ٱلْأَلْبَــــٰـــبِ﴾
Say: ‘Can those who have knowledge and those who do not be alike?’ So only the wise do receive the admonition. [al-Zumar, 39:9.]
﴿إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى ٱللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ ٱلْعُلَمَــــٰۤـــؤُاْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ غَفُورٌ﴾
So only those of His servants who have knowledge (of these realities with a vision and outlook) fear Him. Surely, Allah is Almighty, Most Forgiving. [Fatir, 35:28.]
None of these verses specify that only ‘wise men’ receive admonition or that only ‘male servants’ who have knowledge fear Him. If reference to the importance of knowledge has not been restricted within the purview of men by Almighty God, why do we persevere in creating them ourselves? A number of Prophetic traditions also talk directly about knowledge being obligatory and binding in character.
The Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) said:
«طَلَبُ الْعِلْمِ فَرِيضَةٌ عَلَى كُلِّ مُسْلِمٍ».
Acquisition of knowledge is binding on all Muslims (both men and women without any discrimination). [Narrated by Ibn Maja in al-Sunan, 1:81 §224.]
The Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) also said at another place:
«اُطْلُبُوا الْعِلْمَ وَلَوْ بِالصِّينِ».
Acquire knowledge even if you may have to go to China for it. [Narrated by al-Bazzar in al-Musnad, 1:175 §95.]
He (blessings and peace be upon him) said at another place:
«مَنْ سَلَكَ طَرِيقًا يَلْتَمِسُ فِيهِ عِلْمًا سَهَّلَ اللهُ لَهُ بِهِ طَرِيقًا إِلَى الْجَنَّةِ».
Allah Almighty makes the path to paradise easier for him who walks on it for getting knowledge. [Narrated by Muslim in al-Sahih, 4:2074 §2699.]
It is apparent from the Holy Qur’an and hadiths that the acquisition of knowledge is obligatory for women in the same way as in the case of men. The study of the life of the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) also shows that he himself made special arrangements for the education and training of women.
Abu Sa‘id al-Khudri reports that some women said to the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him): ‘men have gone ahead of us (in terms of acquisition of knowledge). Therefore, appoint a special day for our benefit as well.’ The Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) fixed one day for them. He (blessings and peace be upon him) would meet them on that day, advise them and educate them about commandments of Allah Almighty.[Narrated by al-Bukhari in al-Sahih, 1:50.]
‘A’isha al-Siddiqa, mother of the faithful, was a hadith-narrator, scholar, intellectual and jurist of great standing. She is believed to have reported 2,210 traditions. Abu Hurayra, ‘Abd Allah b. ‘Amr and Anas b. Malik (may Allah be well pleased with them) were the only ones from amongst male hadith-narrators who had narrated more traditions than she did. This itself illustrates that women could not only teach women but also men after fulfilling certain preconditions.
‘A’isha bint Talha (may Allah be well pleased with her) reports:
I stayed with ‘A’isha. People from every city would come to me including the old ones (who would put forward questions) because they knew that I am her servant. And the students who were young would treat me like their sister and would present gifts (to ‘A’isha through me). Many would also write me letters (so that I could reply them back after soliciting answers from ‘A’isha. I would submit: O aunt! Mr so and so has written a letter and there is his present as well. ‘A’isha would say in reply to this: O daughter! Answer his query and give him present in exchange as well. If you have nothing to give, let me know, I will give. So she would return (the present in exchange and I would send it back along with the letter). [Narrated by al-Bukhari in al-Adab al-Mufrad.]
It is important to note here that the concept of knowledge in Islam covers a broad spectrum of subjects. All interpreters of the Holy Qur’an are in agreement that the first five verses of chapter al-‘Alaq form the beginning of the sending of revelation:
﴿ٱقْرَأْ بِٱسْمِ رَبِّكَ ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَ. خَلَقَ ٱلْإِنسَــــٰـــنَ مِنْ عَلَقٍ. ٱقْرَأْ وَرَبُّكَ ٱلْأَكْرَمُ. ٱلَّذِى عَلَّمَ بِٱلْقَلَمِ. عَلَّمَ ٱلْإِنسَــــٰـــنَ مَا لَمْ يَعْلَمْ﴾
(O Beloved!) Read (commencing) with the Name of Allah, Who has created (everything). He created man from a hanging mass (clinging) like a leech (to the mother’s womb). Read, and your Lord is Most Generous, Who taught man (reading and writing) by the pen, Who (besides that) taught man (all that) which he did not know. [al-‘Alaq, 96:1–5.]
The first commandment contained in these verses relates to ‘reading’ as a part of a process of acquisition of knowledge. In addition to the description of Allah Almighty being the Creator and Sustainer, two branches of knowledge are mentioned, embryology and sociology. Whilst indicating knowledge of biology and morality in these verses, the Qur’an explains the Islamic concept of knowledge as being very vast. Acquisition of knowledge embraces within in its fold all of its branches, both religious and secular, which are productive for mankind. It is important to note that this is not restricted to the purview of the traditional religious sciences. Instead many verses of the Holy Qur’an invite man to ponder and meditate over the creation of the universe. Thus it would be wrong to allow women to just partake in learning of the religious sciences and prohibit her from gaining a wider scope in her learning.
Another misnomer is the view that suggests women are only allowed to gain knowledge from female teachers and that instruction from men is prohibited due to the demands of purdah. Although an ideal environment would dictate women teaching women, we do not live in an ideal world where this is always possible. Since Islam is a religion for all nations and all times, it is based on practical reality. There is no stipulation that only women can teach other women or a bar regarding male teachers for women. If the rules of attire and dress are properly observed then men can teach female students under Sharia. This is also apparent from the above mentioned hadith where the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) himself made arrangements for the education and training of women where one day was particularly specified for women in the Prophet’s Mosque.
Indeed those who quote the verses of the Holy Qur’an regarding the veil as an argument against women leaving the home in pursuit of knowledge are also severely misguided. If attending a school or college in the pursuit of knowledge constitutes breaking the laws of purdah then anytime a women steps out of her home would entail the same breakage of laws. This would of course create a ludicrous situation where a woman could never leave her home for any reason. If one looks at the verses regarding the veil Allah Almighty states:
﴿وَقُل لِّلْمُؤْمِنَــــٰـــتِ يَغْضُضْنَ مِنْ أَبْصَــــٰـــرِهِنَّ وَيَحْفَظْنَ فُرُوجَهُنَّ وَلَا يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلَّا مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا*﴾
And direct the believing women that they (too) must keep their eyes lowered and guard their chastity, and must not show off their adornments and beautification except that (part of it) which becomes visible itself. [al-Nur, 24:31.]
﴿يَــــٰۤـــأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّبِىُّ قُل لِّأَزْوَاجِكَ وَبَنَاتِكَ وَنِسَآءِ ٱلْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَــــٰـــبِيبِهِنَّ ذَالِكَ أَدْنَىٰۤ أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلَا يُؤْذَيْنَ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ غَفُورًا رَّحِيمًا﴾
O Prophet! Say to your wives, your daughters and the women of believers that, (whilst going out,) they should draw their veils as coverings over them. It is more likely that this way they may be recognized (as pious, free women), and may not be hurt (considered by mistake as roving slave girls). And Allah is Most Forgiving, Ever-Merciful. [12 al-Ahzab, 33:59.]
Neither of these verses prohibits a woman leaving her house. In fact they merely stipulate that when she leaves the house she should observe the veil whilst outside. Indeed these commandments are themselves a great justification for women stepping out of their homes and becoming active members within society. Moreover if the act of a woman stepping out of her home was prohibited, why did the revered wives of the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) participate in battles? If we study the following traditions we come to know the range of functions women performed during the period of Prophethood.
Anas b. Malik (may Allah be well pleased with him) narrates: when people became separated from the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him), I saw ‘A’isha bint Abi Bakr and Umm Sulaym (may Allah be well pleased with them) were completely covered in attire. They would bring water-bags upon their back, offer it to the thirsty Muslims and then return. They would bring water-bags again and made the thirsty Muslims drink it.[Narrated by al-Bukhari in al-Sahih, 3:1055 §2724.]
Umm ‘Atiya (may Allah be well pleased with her) says: I participated in six battles with the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him). I would pursue the Ghazis in their tracks, cook food for them and do dressing for the injured and make arrangements for treatment of the diseased. [Narrated by al-Bukhari in al-Sahih, 1:333 §937 & 2:595 §1569.]
This practice continued in the period of the rightly-guided Caliphs after the period of Prophethood. It is related in the books of sira that women were part of the parliament (majlis al-shura) during the period of ‘Umar b. al-Khattab (may Allah be well pleased with him). [Narrated by ‘Abd al-Razzaq in al-Musannaf, 6:180 §10420.] During the rule of ‘Uthman (may Allah be well pleased with him), women were designated as ambassadors to other countries. [Related by al-Tabari in Tarikh al-Umam wa al-Muluk, 2:601.]
In a similar manner the history of Islam is replete with the mention of women who obtained distinguished positions in the fields of hadith sciences, the science of interpretation, jurisprudence, medical science, poetry and calligraphy. [Shaykh-ul-Islam Dr Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, Women Rights in Islam.]
It is thus imperative, if a nation wishes to be successful and move towards a sustainable reality, the women of that society must be given every opportunity to attain knowledge and education which is not only her due but a right that has been ordained to her by Almighty Allah.

when you post something like that, you are required by board rules to provide a link.

jafar00

08-20-2013, 07:43 AM

when you post something like that, you are required by board rules to provide a link.

Please excuse the lack of link. http://www.minhaj.org/english/tid/8535/Women-Education-in-Islam-article-by-dr-raheeq-ahmad-rahiq-ahmed-abbasi-nazim-e-aala-mqi-minhaj-ul-quran.html

red state

08-20-2013, 08:51 AM

I see that there are still a few (due to ignorance or willful ignorant hatred) misquote the Constitution and refer to our system as "FREEDOM FROM RELIGION" instead of "FREEDOM OF RELIGION."

I couldn't even force myself to read that $#!T any further from that particular poster and must point out that he is not only WRONG but misguided on why the muSLUM systems and OUR system is so vastly different. They, for the most part, and as the leftist, do not accept other beliefs/moral convictions or allow others to live as FREE, prosperous and healthy individuals (within and FOR) a society. They also share the same philosophy/tactics in misinforming, indoctrinating and shouting down the opposition. THEY can't stand FREEDOM OF RELIGION so they strive to establish freedom from religion or from any other belief besides their cult-like movement within EVILUTION or the violent, deadly cult of iSLUM.

As these terrible dragons stryke....our society, freedoms and prosperity go up in flames.

Marcus Aurelius

08-20-2013, 09:33 AM

Please excuse the lack of link. http://www.minhaj.org/english/tid/8535/Women-Education-in-Islam-article-by-dr-raheeq-ahmad-rahiq-ahmed-abbasi-nazim-e-aala-mqi-minhaj-ul-quran.html

Interesting that you use a source from Pakistan...

Minhaj-ul-Quran International is an international non-governmental organization founded by Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri in 1981 in Lahore, Pakistan

...when you normally claim Pakistan is entirely controlled by the Taliban, and is thus, 'not really Islamic'.

jimnyc

08-20-2013, 11:34 AM

Once again, as usual, Jahil is shown parts of the Qur'an, hadiths, etc. that go against 'his' vision of Islam, and he denounces them as nonsense. What a fucking surprise.

Mohammed himself could come down from heaven, plop a copy of the Qur'an down in front of Jahuil, and recite verses... and if they did not conform to Jahil's vision of Islam, Jahil would claim Mohammed 'wasn't really Islamic'.

Dumb ass.

I'm "shocked" you got a reply, being you were on ignore. Lying and Islam go hand in hand, also proved by the continual denial of who are real muslims and the dismissing of imams and writings that one doesn't care for. Oh, and I can answer for you, muhammedmonkey wasn't islamic, as they don't care for dogs/animals/pets/pigs - but perhaps he was adored for his magical ability to get 6yr olds to submit to his sexual desires.

jimnyc

08-20-2013, 11:35 AM

Interesting that you use a source from Pakistan...

...when you normally claim Pakistan is entirely controlled by the Taliban, and is thus, 'not really Islamic'.

If you quoted something spoken from a Shia, and it favored muslims and his "story", he would go along with it. It's called lying and delusions.

Marcus Aurelius

08-20-2013, 11:37 AM

I'm "shocked" you got a reply, being you were on ignore. Lying and Islam go hand in hand, also proved by the continual denial of who are real muslims and the dismissing of imams and writings that one doesn't care for. Oh, and I can answer for you, muhammedmonkey wasn't islamic, as they don't care for dogs/animals/pets/pigs - but perhaps he was adored for his magical ability to get 6yr olds to submit to his sexual desires.

Now now, lets be historically accurate. She was 6 when they married. She only submitted to his perverse sexual desires when she was 9.

aboutime

08-20-2013, 01:51 PM

Now now, lets be historically accurate. She was 6 when they married. She only submitted to his perverse sexual desires when she was 9.

Marcus. I was almost expecting jafar to tell us..."she was ATE before she was Six", or however that goes in Islamic terms these days.

Drummond

08-20-2013, 03:34 PM

Reading material for Jafar:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Quran.

The context of violent passages is more ambiguous than might be expected of a perfect book from a loving God, however this can work both ways. Most of today's Muslims exercise a personal choice to interpret their holy book's call to arms according to their own moral preconceptions about justifiable violence. Apologists cater to their preferences with tenuous arguments that gloss over historical fact and generally do not stand up to scrutiny. Still, it is important to note that the problem is not bad people, but bad ideology.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. Muhammad's own martial legacy - and that of his companions - along with the remarkable stress on violence found in the Quran have produced a trail of blood and tears across world history.

The Quran:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:293, also). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had the power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert.

Quran (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The Arabic word interpreted as "striving" in this verse is the same root as "Jihad". The context is obviously holy war.

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.

Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).

Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.

Quran (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."

Quran (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Note that the crime is moral transgression, and the punishment is "utter destruction." (Before ordering the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden first issued Americans an invitation to Islam).

I'm sure that all this has been posted before. But, Jafar overlooks it all .. rather a lot ...

Remember on that last one, Jafar, your DENIAL that Al Qaeda are Islamic ..

Now try this ... Islamic treatment of, and 'regard' for, women ...

http://www.radicaltruth.net/index.php/learn/radical-truth-islam/97-the-view-of-women-in-islam

There is a very considerable amount to read here, rather more than it's practical to post in any great detail. Let the link speak for itself.

jimnyc

08-20-2013, 03:37 PM

Reading material for Jafar:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

I'm sure that all this has been posted before. But, Jafar overlooks it all .. rather a lot ...

Remember on that last one, Jafar, your DENIAL that Al Qaeda are Islamic ..

Now try this ... Islamic treatment of, and 'regard' for, women ...

[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE]http://www.radicaltruth.net/index.php/learn/radical-truth-islam/97-the-view-of-women-in-islam

There is a very considerable amount to read here, rather more than it's practical to post in any great detail. Let the link speak for itself.

Every one of those quotes is taken out of context and written by non-muslims. Oh, and it's from a hate site. :poke:

Marcus Aurelius

08-20-2013, 03:50 PM

Every one of those quotes is taken out of context and written by non-muslims. Oh, and it's from a hate site. :poke:

Not 'non-Muslims', but Muslims who are 'not really Muslims'. You and I are 'non-Muslims'. Muslims who do not follow Jahil's personal interpretation of Islam are 'not really Muslims'.

Drummond

08-20-2013, 03:54 PM

Every one of those quotes is taken out of context and written by non-muslims. Oh, and it's from a hate site. :poke:

What's more, they're English translations, and English translations 'can't be trusted' .... :laugh:

As I posted recently, there's a spoof 'Wikipedia' site run by the British Army. They make reference in it to the bog-standard Muslim excuse that English translations don't convey the proper meanings of Koranic verses.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Koran

The mainstream view is also that the Koran should only be read in the original classical Arabic, and that translations into modern languages are merely "interpretations" with no validity. This has the unfortunate consequence that many Muslims have never actually read the Koran, since they are not provided it in a language they can understand, much like the Latin Bible in medieval Catholicism. Oh, and according to a related view, only Muslims can understand it anyway, so there's no point in you reading it, infidel.

jafar00

08-20-2013, 04:38 PM

I don't have time to go through all of the verses you copy/pasted from your hate blog so I will just comment on the ones you bolded. Answers in Blue

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

This verse just allows fighting for self defence or in defence of others. It is not a decree to go around killing everyone you meet. The following verse backs it up describing the nature of fighting.

How is it that you do not fight in the way of Allah and in support of the helpless - men, women and children -who pray: 'Our Lord, bring us out of this land whose people are oppressors and appoint for us from Yourself, a protector, and appoint for us from Yourself a helper'?. (4:75)Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

The verse in full...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.
This follows on from 4:75. It describes those fighting against oppression who fight within the constraints vs the evil doers (dictators)Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

See Battle of Badr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Badr)Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Again, Battle of Badr

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Note that the crime is moral transgression, and the punishment is "utter destruction."(Before ordering the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden first issued Americans an invitation to Islam).

Note the "Royal We". The Royal We is used in interpretations of the Qur'aan to give a sense of majesty to God's decrees. This is God doing the destruction, not Osama, not any mortal. You can't even misread this any other way.

tailfins

08-20-2013, 04:45 PM

I don't have time to go through all of the verses you copy/pasted from your hate blog so I will just comment on the ones you bolded. Answers in Blue

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

This verse just allows fighting for self defence or in defence of others. It is not a decree to go around killing everyone you meet. The following verse backs it up describing the nature of fighting.
How is it that you do not fight in the way of Allah and in support of the helpless - men, women and children -who pray: 'Our Lord, bring us out of this land whose people are oppressors and appoint for us from Yourself, a protector, and appoint for us from Yourself a helper'?. (4:75)Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

The verse in full...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.
This follows on from 4:75. It describes those fighting against oppression who fight within the constraints vs the evil doers (dictators)Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

See Battle of Badr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Badr)Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Again, Battle of Badr

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Note that the crime is moral transgression, and the punishment is "utter destruction."(Before ordering the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden first issued Americans an invitation to Islam).

Note the "Royal We". The Royal We is used in interpretations of the Qur'aan to give a sense of majesty to God's decrees. This is God doing the destruction, not Osama, not any mortal. You can't even misread this any other way.

It seems you come here looking for people to play devil's advocate. Have you ever met a more develish bunch?

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

08-20-2013, 05:33 PM

Now now, lets be historically accurate. She was 6 when they married. She only submitted to his perverse sexual desires when she was 9. When she was 6 he had her doing a Monica Lewinsky MASSAGE on him until she turned the ripe old age of 9!! Then he went in for the whole hog... Tyr

Drummond

08-20-2013, 07:25 PM

It seems you come here looking for people to play devil's advocate. Have you ever met a more develish bunch?

... so tell me, Tailfins, would I become 'saintly' if I suddenly started siding with Muslims, and sympathised with their terrorist activities ?

Drummond

08-20-2013, 07:32 PM

I don't have time to go through all of the verses you copy/pasted from your hate blog so I will just comment on the ones you bolded. Answers in Blue

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

This verse just allows fighting for self defence or in defence of others. It is not a decree to go around killing everyone you meet. The following verse backs it up describing the nature of fighting.
How is it that you do not fight in the way of Allah and in support of the helpless - men, women and children -who pray: 'Our Lord, bring us out of this land whose people are oppressors and appoint for us from Yourself, a protector, and appoint for us from Yourself a helper'?. (4:75)Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

The verse in full...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.
This follows on from 4:75. It describes those fighting against oppression who fight within the constraints vs the evil doers (dictators)Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

See Battle of Badr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Badr)Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Again, Battle of Badr

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Note that the crime is moral transgression, and the punishment is "utter destruction."(Before ordering the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden first issued Americans an invitation to Islam).

Note the "Royal We". The Royal We is used in interpretations of the Qur'aan to give a sense of majesty to God's decrees. This is God doing the destruction, not Osama, not any mortal. You can't even misread this any other way.

Question: those 'oppressors', those so-called 'evil doers'. Jafar, tell me, what was their identity ?

To be clearer, I have in mind what may have been their RACIAL identity. Can you clarify ?

The 'self defence' claim of yours is ALREADY refuted in the text I posted !!

And do you deny, Jafar, that Al Qaeda 'first issued Americans an invitation to Islam' before 9/11 was proceeded with ?

What a strange thing for a NON Muslim group to do.

tailfins

08-20-2013, 07:36 PM

... so tell me, Tailfins, would I become 'saintly' if I suddenly started siding with Muslims, and sympathised with their terrorist activities ?

Of course not! You should forge on as an armchair warrior. I thought Conservative ideology meant individual responsibility. You seem to have group guilt polished to a mirror finish.

Drummond

08-20-2013, 07:40 PM

Of course not! You should forge on as an armchair warrior. I thought Conservative ideology meant individual responsibility. You seem to have group guilt polished to a mirror finish.

What on earth do you mean ? I post according to my own views, and I take responsibility for those views. What I do NOT do is propagandise, with the intention in mind of sanitising the unacceptable.