Pope Francis assures sceptics: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven

[Arbo]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-sceptics-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

Interesting view. Never seen this expressed before, not by someone so high in any church.




Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

[revelarts]

it is very interesting,
the Pope might want to consult the original Peter on that..
just saying.

[tailfins]

Greetings, from the most Catholic state in America! Roger Williams must be rolling in his grave. In honor of Roger Williams, I post the following.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-sceptics-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

Interesting view. Never seen this expressed before, not by someone so high in any church.

[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

What else would you expect from the great whore?


"For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication..." ―Revelation 19:2

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/the_great_whore.htm


http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/salvationtract.jpg


(http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/the_great_whore.htm)

Notice the Halo around Mary (especially her head). The is an idolatrous practice of the Catholics which symbolizes deity (that she is equal with God). The Babylonians practiced the same idolatrous worship to the Queen of Heaven. Mary is NOT deity, she was a normal every-day woman. Yes friend, Satan is definitely working in the Vatican and in Catholic organizations all across the world. Though most Catholics will deny worshipping Mary, the evidence says something very different! They bow down and literally pray in the name of "Mother Mary" to a graven statue of Mary. This is sinful idolatry! They are lying through their teeth. God makes CLEAR in His Word that He will NOT share His glory with another (that includes Mary).

"I am the LORD: that is my name: andmy glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." ―Isaiah 42:8

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/pope4.jpg (http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/pope_worships_mary.htm)


(http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/the_great_whore.htm)

[Arbo]

it is very interesting,
the Pope might want to consult the original Peter on that..
just saying.

Not sure how it jibes with normal Catholic doctrine.

[Abbey Marie]

I'm not so sure that I read his comment that way. If the person goes to Him with a sincere and contrite heart, as the Pope states in the interview, they believe in Him, no?

[Arbo]

I'm not so sure that I read his comment that way. If the person goes to Him with a sincere and contrite heart, they believe in him, no?

I dunno, the whole "
Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience" kinda confused me a bit. Is that saying that everyone has a built in conscience that follows the 'sins' of the bible?

[Marcus Aurelius]

I'm not so sure that I read his comment that way. If the person goes to Him with a sincere and contrite heart, they believe in him, no?

You can't go to Him, if you do not believe He exists. The article in the OP made a sensationalistic headline that does not confer what the Pope actually said.

Big surprise.

[Arbo]

You can't go to Him, if you do not believe He exists. The article in the OP made a sensationalistic headline that does not confer what the Pope actually said.

Well, you'll have to take that up with http://www.independent.co.uk/ (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-sceptics-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html), as it is their headline.


From what I have always understood, everyone goes to him (as far as the beliefs go), it is then that people are judged. If that is the case and it is 'sinners' that are not let in heaven, then the pope saying "
“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience" it appears he thinks if you go before 'him' and have even been without sin as a non-believer, you may well still 'pass on'. Logically anyway. Of course not long ago the pope also said: " “If someone is gay and is looking for the Lord, who am I to judge him?”, so I can see some might disregard what a more 'progressive' pope says. ;)

[Abbey Marie]

Well, you'll have to take that up with http://www.independent.co.uk/ (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-sceptics-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html), as it is their headline.


From what I have always understood, everyone goes to him (as far as the beliefs go), it is then that people are judged. If that is the case and it is 'sinners' that are not let in heaven, then the pope saying "
“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience" it appears he thinks if you go before 'him' and have even been without sin as a non-believer, you may well still 'pass on'. Logically anyway. Of course not long ago the pope also said: " “If someone is gay and is looking for the Lord, who am I to judge him?”, so I can see some might disregard what a more 'progressive' pope says. ;)



"If you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart", connotes something you would do while you are still alive, asking forgiveness. Had the Pope meant judgment day (after death) he would have said "When you appear before Him..." Also, nothing in the Bible would lead you to believe that you can state your case to God after your dead. Your chance to repent and demonstrate your faith is while you live.

[tailfins]

Well, you'll have to take that up with http://www.independent.co.uk/ (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-sceptics-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html), as it is their headline.


From what I have always understood, everyone goes to him (as far as the beliefs go), it is then that people are judged. If that is the case and it is 'sinners' that are not let in heaven, then the pope saying "
“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience" it appears he thinks if you go before 'him' and have even been without sin as a non-believer, you may well still 'pass on'. Logically anyway. Of course not long ago the pope also said: " “If someone is gay and is looking for the Lord, who am I to judge him?”, so I can see some might disregard what a more 'progressive' pope says. ;)



Romans 3:10King James Version (KJV)

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


John 14:6 <small style="color:#999999;">Viewing the King James Version. Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of John 14:6 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_John-14-6/). </small>

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[Arbo]

"If you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart", connotes something you would do while you are still alive asking forgiveness. Had the Pope meant judgment day (after death) he would have said "When you appear before Him..." Also, nothing in the Bible would lead you to believe that you can state your case to God after your dead. Your chance to repent and demonstrate your faith is while you live.

Makes sense. Kinda makes you wonder WTF the pope was talking about then.

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Abbey http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=664125#post664125)
"If you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart", connotes something you would do while you are still alive asking forgiveness. Had the Pope meant judgment day (after death) he would have said "When you appear before Him..." Also, nothing in the Bible would lead you to believe that you can state your case to God after your dead. Your chance to repent and demonstrate your faith is while you live.


Makes sense. Kinda makes you wonder WTF the pope was talking about then.

Maybe it makes non-believers like you wonder, but those of us who believe know exactly what he was talking about.

[fj1200]

Maybe it makes non-believers like you wonder, but those of us who believe know exactly what he was talking about.

Which is?

[Noir]

Sounds like they're making it up as they go. I am shock ;D

Kinda like when they decided limbo wasn't a thing. (Though not quite as disgusting).

[darin]

I agree with the Pope. :)

God would be pretty petty if Jesus REALLY is telling people "Accept me into your heart - because I LOVE you! And if you do NOT love me back, I will destroy you for all eternity!"

The Pope's comments jive, surprisingly, with my idea - Christ leads people to God via His spirit. I believe that. Nowhere does it say the person MUST recognize God as 'God' or "Jesus" by name or convention. As He does not describe HIS methods for dealing with people, say, living in the Mountains who never see/hear of the Bible, His methods are his own. Whom he decides is 'saved' IS 'saved' (to use the familiar). It's not up to any Church to say otherwise.

[revelarts]

the original Peter in Acts Chapter 4 said:
"let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the deadby this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11 He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”


soooo if there's salvation in no one else i'm not sure how an unbeliever is OK if they just "follow their conscience" .

He didn't say there is salvation if you "follow your conscience" or do the best you can.

But believe what you want, but Peter is not on board with the understanding of the Pope's words promoted by the article.

[darin]

the original Peter in Acts Chapter 4 said:
"let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the deadby this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11 He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”


soooo if there's salvation in no one else i'm not sure how an unbeliever is OK if they just "follow their conscience" .

He didn't say there is salvation if you "follow your conscience" or do the best you can.

But believe what you want, but Peter is not on board with the understanding of the Pope's words promoted by the article.

That does not conflict what the Pope suggested. What you quoted says "Chris saves men" - specifically, what Christ did reconciled mankind to God.

[fj1200]

the original Peter in Acts Chapter 4 said:
12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

...

But believe what you want, but Peter is not on board with the understanding of the Pope's words promoted by the article.

I don't think he even said anything that radical. First, the question:


You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith.

Second, he sets a baseline:


I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart.

God is merciful and forgives those who repent; we can all agree on that. And then back to the question:


The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

Non-believers who don't follow God can still "be good" by following their conscience. Of course he seems to dispel the idea that morality comes from God with that last part.

[revelarts]

That does not conflict what the Pope suggested. What you quoted says "Chris saves men" - specifically, what Christ did reconciled mankind to God.

DMP, all due respect but what you seem to say seems to conflict with both.

Based on our past talks, if i've understood you correctly, you say, Christ saves everyone IN SPITE of their sins without even consulting their own conscience's OR having to personally believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.
Your on a whole different page completely it seems to me.

[fj1200]

DMP, all due respect but what you seem to say seems to conflict with both.

Based on our past talks, if i've understood you correctly, you say, Christ saves everyone IN SPITE of their sins without even consulting their own conscience's OR having to personally believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.
Your on a whole different page completely it seems to me.

Revelation would seem to disagree.

[revelarts]

First, the question: You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith.



Second, he sets a baseline:

I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart.


God is merciful and forgives those who repent; we can all agree on that.
Sure



And then back to the question:

The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”


Non-believers who don't follow God can still "be good" by following their conscience. Of course he seems to dispel the idea that morality comes from God with that last part.
Ok well If we was refering to the 1st Question then his answer was about salvation
"forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith."

your seem to be saying he's not answering THAT question but is now answering a question about personal morality and sin.

If he's not Addressing God's Forgiveness, OK I fine. but that was the question.

Concerning whether morals come from God or not , Who made man's conscience? And the Pope also assume man has one. Some Atheist claim all human actions are determined biologically or mechanically. no soul or conscience included. However most people, believers and unbelievers of all types, will acknowledge we all have some kind of built in moral compass. a conscience.
the Pope is not saying anything controversial there. And when he says when we disobey it, we sin, well, In most cases sure most would agree with that. However some people don't have much of conscious, some can kill without remorse and even with pleasure. conscience alone is not the final word on personal sin. or the final arbitary of right and wrong. for most it's a starting place.

but the original questions was a Does GOD forgive. Not do people sin if they don't believe in God.
Most people would agree that, yes people do sin/wrong/evil. You don't have to believe in God to know that for yourself. But where that sense comes from is not a known product of biology. It seems to transcend biology and the physical world. And Whether GOD forgives those sins is the real question.

and Peter says there's NO salvation (forgiveness of sins by God) except by the name of Jesus.

[darin]

DMP, all due respect but what you seem to say seems to conflict with both.

Based on our past talks, if i've understood you correctly, you say, Christ saves everyone IN SPITE of their sins without even consulting their own conscience's OR having to personally believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.
Your on a whole different page completely it seems to me.

Yes Despite/In Spite of our Sins, Christ paid our cost. I'm saying God decides whom he forgives. I'm saying Christ's work absolutely 'attoned' and now Christ 'draws men' unto himself.

The Bible we have makes statements suggesting Christ's work is the final action towards bringing all mankind to God. Christ said if he's lifted-up, he will draw ALL Men unto himself. Implies the 'salvation' most christians rely upon and the 'hell' most christians despirately hope exists, may not matter - because Christ has drawn mankind unto himself.

I'm saying Christ's 'essential' commandments do not include a sinner's prayer. It's Love others as yourself, and Love God. I contend somebody can Love God (verb) without knowing it's the Christian personna of God they are loving. Make sense?

[revelarts]

Yes Despite/In Spite of our Sins, Christ paid our cost. I'm saying God decides whom he forgives. I'm saying Christ's work absolutely 'attoned' and now Christ 'draws men' unto himself.

The Bible we have makes statements suggesting Christ's work is the final action towards bringing all mankind to God. Christ said if he's lifted-up, he will draw ALL Men unto himself. Implies the 'salvation' most christians rely upon and the 'hell' most christians despirately hope exists, may not matter - because Christ has drawn mankind unto himself.

I'm saying Christ's 'essential' commandments do not include a sinner's prayer. It's Love others as yourself, and Love God. I contend somebody can Love God (verb) without knowing it's the Christian personna of God they are loving. Make sense?

Yes i get what your saying, you think Everyone is/will be forgiven in the end/today no matter what they think or believe or do or feel in their hearts today or tomorrow. Christ has done it all for everyone even if they don't believe anything Jesus or the Bible says.

you believe that .. becaaaause the Bible says so... or at least parts of it seem to conform to your own belief that God is working things out that way.


I get you.
But as I said that's very different from what the current Pope seems to be saying and what Peter said.

[darin]

Could it be God is bigger, more-complex, more-simple, more amazing, graceful, and wonderful than what we have in the bible we chose?

;)

[Arbo]

Could it be God is bigger, more-complex, more-simple, more amazing, graceful, and wonderful than what we have in the bible we chose?

;)

Considering that things we now understand were mysterious back in the day (earthquakes, lightning, etc), and considering much of the Bible was written back when much was a mystery, it seems possible that humans did not have the ability to fully comprehend 'God'.

[revelarts]

Considering that things we now understand were mysterious back in the day (earthquakes, lightning, etc), and considering much of the Bible was written back when much was a mystery, it seems possible that humans did not have the ability to fully comprehend 'God'.
Well if the old timey prophets really did talk to God directly and pasted on the info as instructed i don't know if our modern insights will change our understanding of God and his intents substantially. Man is still man, morals are still morals.
AND If Jesus Christ really died and rose form the dead and is who he claimed to be. I don't think any modern understanding is going surpass his.
John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

He's able to comprehend himself.

[DragonStryk72]

I dunno, the whole "
Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience"
kinda confused me a bit. Is that saying that everyone has a built in conscience that follows the 'sins' of the bible?

No, he's saying that sin exists, whether belief in God is present or not. So, basically, if you've been living a moral life, God isn't screwing you over because of a single point of belief when the ultimate truth is revealed after death.

In the end, all find their way to God, whether they believed in life or not, because again, it's like Earth, you don't have to know of it or to believe it's there to be standing on it right now. Why would Heaven be any different in this regard?

[DragonStryk72]

Yes i get what your saying, you think Everyone is/will be forgiven in the end/today no matter what they think or believe or do or feel in their hearts today or tomorrow. Christ has done it all for everyone even if they don't believe anything Jesus or the Bible says.

you believe that .. becaaaause the Bible says so... or at least parts of it seem to conform to your own belief that God is working things out that way.


I get you.
But as I said that's very different from what the current Pope seems to be saying and what Peter said.

You have to bear in mind, however, that Paul and Peter were still men. They were very good men who did great things in their lives, but they were still men, not divine. None of Christ's Apostles got away from being men in the end of things, and that was the whole point, wasn't it? Christ's message was that we didn't have to hold ourselves up to some impossible ideal to live a moral life and make it into Heaven, that God understand that it is the nature of man to stumble and err.

In fact, I would posit that God feels this is one of our most important traits, hence the destruction of the Tower of Babel when we all came to a single belief. Had He wanted us all in lockstep, did that not fulfill the intent? And if it was only that He did not care for the tower, why not simply destroy the tower, and leave that languages of His people alone?

[Arbo]

No, he's saying that sin exists, whether belief in God is present or not. So, basically, if you've been living a moral life, God isn't screwing you over because of a single point of belief when the ultimate truth is revealed after death.

That's what I thought, but it seems others disagree with that point.