Hey ultra conservatives! Pope Francis wants you to chill out

[gabosaurus]

I can dig it! The Pope is threatening to drag the Catholic church into the 21st Century. :cool:


Pope Francis has warned that the Roman Catholic Church could lose its way if it focuses too much on enforcing rules against contraception, abortion and homosexuality, instead of throwing open its doors and making the church more merciful.

In a candid interview with an Italian Jesuit magazine, Francis also reiterated conciliatory comments he made this summer about not judging gay people.

"A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality,” he told La Civilta Cattolica. “I replied with another question: 'Tell me, when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?'

http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-pope-francis-gays-abortion-contraception-20130919,0,2183109.story

[DragonStryk72]

I can dig it! The Pope is threatening to drag the Catholic church into the 21st Century. :cool:



http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-pope-francis-gays-abortion-contraception-20130919,0,2183109.story

Actually, you mean Hard Line catholics. I know, you only really deal in stereotypes, but believe it or not, words do mean things.

[revelarts]

"...throwing open its doors and making the church more merciful..."

what does that mean do you think?

Announcing that abortion is NOT killing a child?
Announcing that Abortion is not a sin?
openly gay priest?
announcing that homosexuality is no longer a sin?


what does it mean?
any of the above then it would mean.
throwing open the doors of the church and tossing out MORE pages of the Bible than it has.

[Arbo]

I can dig it! The Pope is threatening to drag the Catholic church into the 21st Century. :cool:

Yeah, I read that. Simply amazing someone so high in any church has that amount of common sense.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I can dig it! The Pope is threatening to drag the Catholic church into the 21st Century. :cool:



http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-pope-francis-gays-abortion-contraception-20130919,0,2183109.story O' Lord, deliver us from this insidious "all inclusive monster" that has possessed the Pope. A good exorcism is what the Doc now orders. ;)--Tyr

[tailfins]

I can dig it! The Pope is threatening to drag the Catholic church into the 21st Century. :cool:



http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-pope-francis-gays-abortion-contraception-20130919,0,2183109.story


Why should I care what the leader of some apostate religion thinks? If Dr. James Dobson were to come out in favor a gay marriage or abortion, that would matter.

[glockmail]

Gabs, you don't know shit about Catholicism.

[SassyLady]

It's not my faith and I'm not fretting about what they want to do within their own religion.

[logroller]

Be more merciful?

I beginning to suspect the pope isn't a real catholic. :laugh:

[Voted4Reagan]

"...throwing open its doors and making the church more merciful..."

what does that mean do you think?

Announcing that abortion is NOT killing a child?
Announcing that Abortion is not a sin?
openly gay priest?
announcing that homosexuality is no longer a sin?


what does it mean?
any of the above then it would mean.
throwing open the doors of the church and tossing out MORE pages of the Bible than it has.




The Church needs to be more progressive in accepting EVERYONE.

Gay Priests? Sure...no problem
Women Priests? Sure...No Problem
Abortion? That may be more a problem.
Contraception...Sure...No Problem.
Married Priests? Sure...Not a Problem

As a Catholic I applaud the Pope... The Church has for too long preached the doctrine of Men and not the Gospel of the Son of God.

This Pope may save the Church.... I welcome his changes.

[Abbey Marie]

"...throwing open its doors and making the church more merciful..."

what does that mean do you think?

Announcing that abortion is NOT killing a child?
Announcing that Abortion is not a sin?
openly gay priest?
announcing that homosexuality is no longer a sin?


what does it mean?
any of the above then it would mean.
throwing open the doors of the church and tossing out MORE pages of the Bible than it has.




One might logically conclude that mercy is needed precisely because one is dealing with sinners. Not that such behavior is 'a-ok" with the Church or with God.

[DragonStryk72]

One might logically conclude that mercy is needed precisely because one is dealing with sinners. Not that such behavior is 'a-ok" with the Church or with God.

Christ spent time with hookers and roman tax collectors. He didn't turn anyone away, so why should the church? Sinners outside the faith need God more, not less. Christ gave his life on the cross for everyone, not simply those who believed in him.

[jimnyc]

Here's what I got from another article - it's not that the pope is giving the OK for these things, but rather he's saying that the church shouldn't be fixated on solely these things. Nothing will change from within that these are less than a sin, doctrine the same, rules the same (however you want to spell it)...

Sounds like he is saying that the Church should be a tad friendlier, more politically correct, a little less judgmental even though certain things STILL are sins.


Pope Francis is sounding off on the Catholic Church's apparent fixation on gays and abortions, saying the church needs to be more welcoming and stop getting locked up in "small-minded rules."
In an in-depth interview with Jesuit journals, including America Magazine, the 76-year-old Argentinian leader of the Vatican Church says there is too much dogma and is surprising some with his semi-tolerant tone on gays and women who have had abortion.

"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible," he said.

But to be clear: The Pope isn't changing church doctrine, but he is calling for a less judgmental church.

The rules, Francis says, are clear and he agrees with them "but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time. The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent."

Calling himself a sinner who believes in the holy sacrament of confession, Francis says it's the church's work to help everyone move forward in their Christian lives.

http://news.yahoo.com/popes-dope-advice-church-needs-stop-fixating-gays-000134470.html

[tailfins]

Christ spent time with hookers and roman tax collectors. He didn't turn anyone away, so why should the church? Sinners outside the faith need God more, not less. Christ gave his life on the cross for everyone, not simply those who believed in him.

It's not a matter of turning anyone away. The kindest thing you can do is warn someone of God's judgement. When they heed that warning, you have saved them from an everlasting torment in hell.

[revelarts]

I'm not a Catholic but I think what they do is extremely important. since many in the world think of of them as representing Jesus Christ or Christians in general. ANd if By Gods Grace a Pope was truly captured to do the will of God and not play religious politics could be an amazing wonder.





One might logically conclude that mercy is needed precisely because one is dealing with sinners. Not that such behavior is 'a-ok" with the Church or with God.
Christ spent time with hookers and roman tax collectors. He didn't turn anyone away, so why should the church? Sinners outside the faith need God more, not less. Christ gave his life on the cross for everyone, not simply those who believed in him.

Yes mercy is Central to Faith in Jesus, however what is God having mercy for? For Sin.
Yet many Homosexuals don't want to be told that what they do is Sin.

Jesus was merciful and kind to everyone but he didn't pull in punches either.
to the woman caught in adultery He said "neither do i condemn (physically kill) you. Go and SIN NO MORE."
He didn't say: You keep going in your adulterous relationship and I'll make you a Bishopish of a church don't worry about it dear your only human.

People love to be touchy feely about these things.
Be kind... be merciful... don't hurt feeling... don't accuse... don't judge.
That's all great emotional talk. But Jesus Christ and the Asposltes were never about making people feel like their sins weren't real or serious. But that they could all be forgiven 100%, and as a gift.
He never wants us to CONTINUE in them or CELEBRATE them. But to make every effort to live HOLY.


Is that a dirty word in the Churches now. HOLINESS?
Peter said
Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”....
1 Peter 1:13-16


God does NOT tell Cristian to berate sinners, but to call fellow sinners to the Grace of God.
He doesn't call us to excuse or ignore sin but to get washed from our sins by the blood of Jesus.
He doesn't call us to be mean but to be clear, to speak the truth in love.

sin hasn't changed. There was huge amount of homosexuality in the Roman culture Christianity was 1st set in. But it was never condoned by the the Apostles, it was to be forgiven and put away , not to be assumed "normal".
it's not some Modern Idea that the lifestyle is ok. like all sin, it's old as dirt.

Abortion, adultery, sex before marriage,
God has mercy on all sin. but he doesn't want Christians wallowing in it acting like it's OK with God.

And if your not a christian, you don't have to agree with the Bible's view on ANY issues. But funny that some are pissed that many Christians believe in what Moses, Jesus and Apostles taught, in contrast to the same old perversions the Roman's (Caesar -Caligula) believed. just with a modern cultures stamp of approval.

sorry, Many Christians believe that we should change to conform to what the God says about all things, including Sin annnnd Mercy.
But we don't conform the Bible to what "modern" cultures says. If you want to live like Modern culture says why are you trying to be Christian? I've never understood that.
"Well I'm a Christian but i don't believe THIS PART of what JESUS or the Apostles says , I won't say OUT LOUD that JESUS was wrong, but it was some .. scribe or priest or... or.. something old backward cultural something that was inserted. Because God Agrees with ME and all my cool unbelieving Friends."

seems weird to me.

Believe me, if I thought the Bible was wrong about all the stuff people complain about i would NOT be a Christian.

[Arbo]

Christ spent time with hookers and roman tax collectors. He didn't turn anyone away, so why should the church? Sinners outside the faith need God more, not less. Christ gave his life on the cross for everyone, not simply those who believed in him.

Well said, and seems more in line with the idea of Christianity than what most christians put forth.

[Larrymc]

I can dig it! The Pope is threatening to drag the Catholic church into the 21st Century. :cool:



http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-pope-francis-gays-abortion-contraception-20130919,0,2183109.storyWhile i agree that the church has historically been wrong in the way they handled suck sin, by displaying suck disdain with an unwillingness to address suck issues as Homosexuality they pushed people away, instead the church should admit that those are for what ever reason a real desire for some, and the church should be prepared to welcome those, now im not suggesting that the church should accept there open behavior, but accept them and support them as none practicing Gays, deserving of the same love and respect as the rest of the sinners in the church. I don't think that people are born that way, but i do believe there is a host of situations that can cause a weakness for it, i know God could deliver a person from it, but it may be their cross to bare, as it has been a temptation for man sense Biblical times, evident by the Bibles need to warn against it. As for swing the doors open wide, it depends on what that means?
Isaiah 5:20

King James Version (KJV)

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

I have been ridiculed for saying that i believe the Great Church in Revelations that will have it wrong will be the Catholic church because they will change to suit the present society, i could be wrong some think it will be some new movement like Scientology ect. "Just my opinion not meant to offend"

[Gaffer]

I have been ridiculed for saying that i believe the Great Church in Revelations that will have it wrong will be the Catholic church because they will change to suit the present society, i could be wrong some think it will be some new movement like Scientology ect. "Just my opinion not meant to offend"

What if it's not a great church, but a mosque?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

One might logically conclude that mercy is needed precisely because one is dealing with sinners. Not that such behavior is 'a-ok" with the Church or with God. God's mercy is ever present and eternal, known as our Savior Jesus Christ. Not sure why the Pope felt the need to strike the rock when the bible tells all that needs to be told. Love the sinner but not the sin is a standard in Christianity but inclusiveness should never include turning a blind eye to the way of life of some of the groups he sent the message to IMHO. And if that's the true intent of the message he sent then the Catholic Church will be in for a world of hurt and punishment. None escape the justice affirmed in the principles given in the bible.-Tyr

[Larrymc]

What if it's not a great church, but a mosque?I would not be surprised as i said, i could be wrong.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

What if it's not a great church, but a mosque? Everything currently points to it being a mosque. Islam was founded as a counter to Judaism and Christianity and its founder used Mohammad to deliver his message. Lucifer is not called the "Great Deceiver" FOR NOTHING..-Tyr

[gabosaurus]

One might logically conclude that mercy is needed precisely because one is dealing with sinners. Not that such behavior is 'a-ok" with the Church or with God.

Now, now, your attempts to infuse logic into this discussion are useless. Why try to make sense of a subject when you can more easily just bash Muslims. :rolleyes:

[Kathianne]

I know it's shocking, but the 'headlines' may be a tad misleading. If anyone is actually interested, here's the entire interview, 11k words:

http://www.americamagazine.org/pope-interview

[Abbey Marie]

I wasn't disagreeing, Rev. :thumb:

As for the church being "less judgmental", as Jim quoted above, it really depends what form that takes. If it means being welcoming but honest and clear about what the Bible teaches, in the hope that such people will turn away from sin, that's a good thing. If it means being wishy-washy about it, just so people will like the church more and feel more comfortable sinning, that's worse than doing nothing at all. Well, except for the church's coffers. They would improve.

[tailfins]

I wasn't disagreeing, Rev. :thumb:

As for the church being "less judgmental", as Jim quoted above, it really depends what form that takes. If it means being welcoming but honest and clear about that the Bible teaches in the hope that such people will turn away from sin, that's a good thing. If it means being wishy-washy about it, just so people will like the church more and feel more comfortable sinning, that's worse than doing nothing at all. Well, except for the church's coffers. They would improve.

"The church" might confuse people. How about the RIGHT church? (Which of course is a KJV-Only Fundamental Baptist Church)

[Abbey Marie]

By the current Pope, from Kath's quoted article, and I would agree. But we must not lose our way in actually getting to part 2:


But the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives. Today sometimes it seems that the opposite order is prevailing.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Now, now, your attempts to infuse logic into this discussion are useless. Why try to make sense of a subject when you can more easily just bash Muslims. :rolleyes: There would be no order in the world if the TRUTH didn't hurt those that are deserving of it. Hiding and ignoring the truth is a recipe for disaster.

[DragonStryk72]

I'm not a Catholic but I think what they do is extremely important. since many in the world think of of them as representing Jesus Christ or Christians in general. ANd if By Gods Grace a Pope was truly captured to do the will of God and not play religious politics could be an amazing wonder.






Yes mercy is Central to Faith in Jesus, however what is God having mercy for? For Sin.
Yet many Homosexuals don't want to be told that what they do is Sin.

Jesus was merciful and kind to everyone but he didn't pull in punches either.
to the woman caught in adultery He said "neither do i condemn (physically kill) you. Go and SIN NO MORE."
He didn't say: You keep going in your adulterous relationship and I'll make you a Bishopish of a church don't worry about it dear your only human.

People love to be touchy feely about these things.
Be kind... be merciful... don't hurt feeling... don't accuse... don't judge.
That's all great emotional talk. But Jesus Christ and the Asposltes were never about making people feel like their sins weren't real or serious. But that they could all be forgiven 100%, and as a gift.
He never wants us to CONTINUE in them or CELEBRATE them. But to make every effort to live HOLY.


Is that a dirty word in the Churches now. HOLINESS?
Peter said
Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”....
1 Peter 1:13-16


God does NOT tell Cristian to berate sinners, but to call fellow sinners to the Grace of God.
He doesn't call us to excuse or ignore sin but to get washed from our sins by the blood of Jesus.
He doesn't call us to be mean but to be clear, to speak the truth in love.

sin hasn't changed. There was huge amount of homosexuality in the Roman culture Christianity was 1st set in. But it was never condoned by the the Apostles, it was to be forgiven and put away , not to be assumed "normal".
it's not some Modern Idea that the lifestyle is ok. like all sin, it's old as dirt.

Abortion, adultery, sex before marriage,
God has mercy on all sin. but he doesn't want Christians wallowing in it acting like it's OK with God.

And if your not a christian, you don't have to agree with the Bible's view on ANY issues. But funny that some are pissed that many Christians believe in what Moses, Jesus and Apostles taught, in contrast to the same old perversions the Roman's (Caesar -Caligula) believed. just with a modern cultures stamp of approval.

sorry, Many Christians believe that we should change to conform to what the God says about all things, including Sin annnnd Mercy.
But we don't conform the Bible to what "modern" cultures says. If you want to live like Modern culture says why are you trying to be Christian? I've never understood that.
"Well I'm a Christian but i don't believe THIS PART of what JESUS or the Apostles says , I won't say OUT LOUD that JESUS was wrong, but it was some .. scribe or priest or... or.. something old backward cultural something that was inserted. Because God Agrees with ME and all my cool unbelieving Friends."

seems weird to me.

Believe me, if I thought the Bible was wrong about all the stuff people complain about i would NOT be a Christian.

And their is no mercy without sin. I mean, impossible by Catholic doctrine as it is, would a person without sin need God's mercy? No, of course not. Homosexuality is still a sin, just as having any sex that is not in the missionary position for the sole purpose of having babies is considered a sin by the church. And there's no hierarchy of sins here, they both fall under Lust, one of the 7 cardinal sins.

It's sort of impossible to call people to the Grace of God when they're constantly being berated, and this is an issue I've seen in my friends, where they a lot of times forget I'm catholic because I'm not harping about stuff. One of my friends routinely slaps down Christians as a whole, and I finally got sick of turning the other cheek, "Really, I'm an asshole?"

"Well, no, I mean, you're not a real Christian."

I admit it- I gave in to wrath. There was a solid ten minute section of time that was just me going off on things like hypocrisy, broad strokes painting, and how the true fake Christians are the ones using Jesus to fuel hate. Like, people who sit there with those "GOD HATES FAGS" signs, or who kill abortion clinic doctors, they're not Christians, cause God doesn't hate anyone. He hates murder, He hates rape, but He doesn't hate murderers and rapists.

[revelarts]

And their is no mercy without sin. I mean, impossible by Catholic doctrine as it is, would a person without sin need God's mercy? No, of course not. Homosexuality is still a sin, just as having any sex that is not in the missionary position for the sole purpose of having babies is considered a sin by the church. And there's no hierarchy of sins here, they both fall under Lust, one of the 7 cardinal sins.

It's sort of impossible to call people to the Grace of God when they're constantly being berated, and this is an issue I've seen in my friends, where they a lot of times forget I'm catholic because I'm not harping about stuff. One of my friends routinely slaps down Christians as a whole, and I finally got sick of turning the other cheek, "Really, I'm an asshole?"

"Well, no, I mean, you're not a real Christian."

I admit it- I gave in to wrath. There was a solid ten minute section of time that was just me going off on things like hypocrisy, broad strokes painting, and how the true fake Christians are the ones using Jesus to fuel hate. Like, people who sit there with those "GOD HATES FAGS" signs, or who kill abortion clinic doctors, they're not Christians, cause God doesn't hate anyone. He hates murder, He hates rape, but He doesn't hate murderers and rapists.

"..just as having any sex that is not in the missionary position for the sole purpose of having babies is considered a sin by the church..."
Not any church i've been a member of. just saying. that line is not from the Bible.
the Bible says what the married couple do in the bedroom is their own biz.
The Pope might want to move back from the position you described. if that really the RC teaching nowadays.

As far as the Christians reputation for berating before the mercy goes. well I suppose some of that is deserved . you mention a few groups of nuts. but have you meet many/any Christian that do what your friend describes as "Christian". espescailly since he doesn't consider you one.
None of the Churches I've attended have marched around with signs or attack people the way you describe. Have Christians fought in the courts to keep homosexual marriage illegal? Yes. Is that calling names? hypocritical? Is it Hate? or just trying to maintain a legal moral standard?

the homosexual groups say if we don't agree with their view of sex then we are hateful. If that's the case then I guess many Christian will just have to live with the label. Even though Many if Not MOST have never called a homosexual a name or killed an abortion doctor.

My point is that that there's an area where there is no compromise. and it's not built on hate. the murderer is not asking that we accept his murders as a "lifestyle" and make it legal and teach it in school as normal. The murderers need/have God's love available as much as anyone. And His hand is outstretched as ours should be as fellow sinners, but should we hire unrepentant murders as priest and pastors?

from the 1st post
"Pope Francis has warned that the Roman Catholic Church could lose its way if it focuses too much on enforcing rules against contraception, abortion and homosexuality, instead of throwing open its doors and making the church more merciful.

In a candid interview with an Italian Jesuit magazine, Francis also reiterated conciliatory comments he made this summer about not judging gay people.

"A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality,” he told La Civilta Cattolica. “I replied with another question: 'Tell me, when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?'"

lets change the sin
'Tell me, when God looks at a Murderer, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?'"

I agree. the answer is of course, God loves that person.
my 1st questions still stand though. What does that mean in practice?