Abdul Haji - Muslim Hero of Westgate

[jafar00]

A hero and and a beautiful Muslim man, Abdul Haji saved more the 100 people from the Westgate Mall attack. May Allah bless him and protect him always.


Revealed: American family rescued by Muslim hero of attack on Kenya's Westgate mallExclusive: American family the Waltons have told how they were rescued from the siege at Nairobi's Westgate mall by a man who has been hailed a hero. Aislinn Laing reports on the terrifying drama and the iconic picture which bears witness to it.
Faced with a long afternoon trapped in the house with her five children last Saturday, Katherine Walton decided on a quick excursion – a trip to Nairobi's popular Westgate Mall.

On arriving together, her two teenage boys briefly went ahead with Mrs Walton following with her three daughters including four-year-old Portia.

Four hours later, the family lay pinned to the ground opposite the supermarket where they did their weekly shop as gunmen hurled grenades and sprayed bullets just yards from them.

"We were just going to meet my two older boys in the supermarket when we heard an explosion," said Mrs Walton, a 38-year-old IT worker from North Carolina who moved to Kenya with her husband Philip and their children two years ago.

"I grabbed the girls and started running. A woman pulled us behind a promotional table opposite. I could see the bullets hitting above the shops and hear the screaming all around us."


She remembers only fragments of the hours that followed which she spent huddled under the table, but, according to Mr Walton, 39, she saw enough of the attackers to be able to describe several of them in detail afterwards.
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02684/NAIROBI-INDIAN-LAD_2684618c.jpgMrs Walton and an Asian lady escape with two of the children (GORAN TOMASEVIC/REUTERS)
"She heard them talking to people, telling them to stand up followed by gunshots," he recalled. "The thing that's troubling her now is she can't forget the smell of the gunpowder."
During their ordeal, the couple's three daughters, aged four, two and 13 months, were shielded and calmed by an injured Kenyan woman and two Indian women who hid with them.
"They were so still and quiet," Mrs Walton said. "My baby was screaming when there was shooting but between that, she just slept. In one lull in the fighting, my two-year-old and the baby were playing together with my phone. I couldn't understand how they could be acting like everything was fine."
Yards away a man with a pistol who was shooting at a heavily armed young jihadi in a bandanna who was taunting him to come closer.
That man was Abdul Haji, the son of a former security minister in the Kenyan government, who had rushed to the mall after getting a text message from his brother who was trapped inside.
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02684/NAIROBI-POLICE_2684617c.jpgAbdul Haji and a fellow police offider in the mall. (GORAN TOMASEVIC/REUTERS)
"We saw a lot of dead people. Very young people, children, old ladies, you cannot imagine," Mr Haji told the Kenyan television station NTV.
"From what they were doing, you could tell that these were not normal people. The fact that he was making a joke out of this whole thing made me much more angry and determined to engage them, and to shame them."
Mr Haji said his father taught him to use a gun to protect their cattle from bandits when he was growing up.
Last Saturday, he used his skills to provide fire cover for the Kenyan Red Cross workers and, over a period of three hours, help to evacuate some of the 1,000 people who escaped the mall in the initial stages of a siege that would last three days and leave at least 72 people dead. As he stood with a fellow rescuer crouched outside the Nakumatt supermarket, Mr Haji said he noticed the women hiding under the table.
"Just a few minutes ago we were exchanging fire with the terrorists and these people were right in the middle of it, in the crossfire. We regrouped and we started to strategise on how to get them out of there," he said.
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02684/Nairobi_escape_2684620c.jpgMr Haji helps another woman and child to flee the scene (GORAN TOMASEVIC/REUTERS)
He asked the women to move towards them but they indicated they had children with them and could not all run together.
Mr Haji said he asked Mrs Walton if one of the older children could be encouraged to run towards him.
Mrs Walton's oldest daughter Portia emerged and ran across the deserted corridor.
The moment was captured by a Reuters photographer, Goran Tomasevic, in a dramatic image that was beamed around the world.
Mr Walton, who during the siege was 9,000 miles away on a business trip to the United States, said he reacted in disbelief when he first saw the photograph of his daughter striking out alone across the mall. "She's not normally the kind of girl that would run to a stranger, particularly one with a gun," he said.
His wife added: "I don't know how she knew to do it but she did. She did what she was told and she went."
Seeing the little girl running towards him gave Mr Haji fresh impetus to continue helping people out.
"This little girl is a very brave girl," he said. "Amid all this chaos around her, she remained calm, she wasn't crying and she actually managed to run towards men who were holding guns. I was really touched by this and I thought if such a girl can be so brave ... it gave us all courage."
One by one, the Walton family emerged and ran with Mr Haji and other rescuers until they reached the police lines outside the mall.
There, Mrs Walton was reunited with her teenage boys who had been trapped with another family in the basement of the mall but also had escaped.
"As we went out, it was so quiet and we started to get upset because we realised we were almost there," Mrs Walton said.
"They soothed us, told us we were OK, we were safe and to stay calm. They did a wonderful job."
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02684/NAIROBI-SAFE_2684616c.jpgPortia Walton is safely reunited with her mother. (GEORGINA GOODWIN/SAX)
Looking at the photograph now, Mrs Walton says she can see the fear etched on her daughter's face. "I was worried about family in America seeing it because we haven't really shared the whole story with them yet," she said. "For me, I know the story behind it and that it ends well. I think I owe Mr Haji a hug or two."
Since he has been identified, many Kenyans have hailed Mr Haji as a hero but he disagrees.
"I think I did what any Kenyan in my situation would have done to save lives, to save other humans regardless of their nationality, religion or creed," he said.
Portia and her big brother have since been sent back to school in an attempt to establish "a new normal", Mr Walton said.
"Our two-year-old cries a little bit more and Portia wants to stand a little closer but really they are doing exceptionally well considering," his wife added.
Mr Walton said there was no question that they would now be leaving Kenya. "There will always be bad people in the world but it's the comfort of knowing that there are good people that matters," he said.
"The way this community drew together and responded was just incredible. It's an honour and a privilege to be able to live among such good people."
Asked what they would tell their children about the Westgate attack when they grew up, he said: "We will be truthful with them.
"It defies logic that they survived but we're a family of deep faith and take a lot of comfort from knowing that God protected them."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/kenya/10337908/Revealed-American-family-rescued-by-Muslim-hero-of-attack-on-Kenyas-Westgate-mall.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r1kECr-4X0

[fj1200]

Well that just doesn't fit the narrative jafar; how dare you?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Well that just doesn't fit the narrative jafar; how dare you?

What narrative? You mean the one where muslims are murdering innocent people? I guess it does. Muslims were in the mall murdering innocent people. Another muslim went there to rescue his brother and shoot at the first muslims terrorists that were there murdering people! Muslims do not get a pass because one did a good deed. Such childish thinking is silly. 72 murdered people and you apparently think a man defending his brother exonerates something? Had my brother been in that place I'd went in with my 45 cal Kimber , 308 caliber rifle and likely killed all the bastards as I simply don't miss when shooting.. -Tyr

[CSM]

I admire courage no matter where it is displayed.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I admire courage no matter where it is displayed. I do as well. The guy is a brave man and certainly did a good deed but that certainly does not exonerate Islam for the murdering done by so many radical muslims. Islam is a violent religion.... -Tyr

[fj1200]

What narrative? You mean the one where muslims are murdering innocent people?

No, the ones where all Islam is all bad. That display of childish thinking.

[Larrymc]

A hero and and a beautiful Muslim man, Abdul Haji saved more the 100 people from the Westgate Mall attack. May Allah bless him and protect him always.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/kenya/10337908/Revealed-American-family-rescued-by-Muslim-hero-of-attack-on-Kenyas-Westgate-mall.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r1kECr-4X0No doubt this man is a hero, and shown a good light on his faith, but as tyr said it don't negate the fact that the mall was under siege by Muslims.

[Arbo]

Such childish thinking is silly.

Yes, the continued thinking that all Muslims are bad is indeed childish and silly. And ignorant and a few other things.

[jafar00]

No doubt this man is a hero, and shown a good light on his faith, but as tyr said it don't negate the fact that the mall was under siege by Muslims.

The terrorists were definitely not Muslims. They left Islam behind with the first shot into an innocent person.

[aboutime]

The terrorists were definitely not Muslims. They left Islam behind with the first shot into an innocent person.


We must believe you jafar? Were you there at the Westgate Mall to check ID's before the shooting started?

[Larrymc]

The terrorists were definitely not Muslims. They left Islam behind with the first shot into an innocent person.We have many Muslims in the US and i have made no bone about not trusting them, and i would like to believe what you say, but until there is some kind of up raising from Muslims against these people, who hijack there religion trust will be hard to come.

[logroller]

We have many Muslims in the US and i have made no bone about not trusting them, and i would like to believe what you say, but until there is some kind of up raising from Muslims against these people, who hijack there religion trust will be hard to come.
Is this thread not offered as evidence of Muslims rising against those who aren't to be trusted?

[Larrymc]

Is this thread not offered as evidence of Muslims rising against those who aren't to be trusted?Sorry this tread, or a couple of guys arguing for Peaceful Islam is not going to do anything for me.

[logroller]

Sorry this tread, or a couple of guys arguing for Peaceful Islam is not going to do anything for me.
What would?

[Larrymc]

What would?as i said an up raising from the Islamic community, publicly calling this trash what they say it is. we see daily Atrocity's done in the name of Islam, yet the Muslim community is silent.

[Arbo]

as i said an up raising from the Islamic community, publicly calling this trash what they say it is. we see daily Atrocity's done in the name of Islam, yet the Muslim community is silent.

I haven't seen a christian uprising against the Westboro Baptists. Oh wait, that's because most Christians are just like them, they just don't have the balls to admit it.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Is this thread not offered as evidence of Muslims rising against those who aren't to be trusted?

Sorry, its about a muslim that went to fight to save his brother in that mall. It is not about a brave muslim that went there to fight them because they were dishonoring Islam. That dog is not going to hunt ,plain and simple. Guy was brave indeed but did so to try to save his brother no different than what I would have done except I would have taken pistol, long rifle ,plenty ammo and killed lots of them. Fact. Ever see what a 308 caliber hunting round does to its target? I have and its not a round a man wants to even touch any part of his body. I'd have no fear shooting Grizzly bears with it. Also I have a nice 45/70 which is even more powerful. --Tyr

[logroller]

as i said an up raising from the Islamic community, publicly calling this trash what they say it is. we see daily Atrocity's done in the name of Islam, yet the Muslim community is silent.
This 'Islamic community'-- what's that? Islam is as diverse as any other religion, and there are certainly instances of their constituent members standing up. I think you just discount them as you have with the instance in the OP, perpetuating the narrative that all Muslims are bad based upon the actions of relatively few. Which is ironic since you openly dismiss instances of muslims who openly oppose terrorism. Sadly you're no alone, media in general doesn't report the instances because if it doesn't bleed, it doesn't lead. But nonetheless, its happens.

http://nation.foxnews.com/coptic-christians/2011/01/15/egypts-muslims-attend-coptic-christmas-mass-serving-human-shields

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90854/7192595.html?

The 'Muslims don't do enough' demand reminds me a lot of the gun control fanatics demands where the instances of known opposition to mass murder was sufficient enough to deter such acts from occurring, and thus there's no report if such, being taken as definitive lack of evidence that gun possession deters such crime.

[logroller]

I haven't seen a christian uprising against the Westboro Baptists. Oh wait, that's because most Christians are just like them, they just don't have the balls to admit it.
Many Christians do, its just not deemed noteworthy.

[Larrymc]

I haven't seen a christian uprising against the Westboro Baptists. Oh wait, that's because most Christians are just like them, they just don't have the balls to admit it.so what other denomination have you seen supporting them?

[Arbo]

except I would have taken pistol, long rifle ,plenty ammo and killed lots of them. Fact.


Matthew : "Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven."

Jude 1:16 - " These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage."

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

This 'Islamic community'-- what's that? Islam is as diverse as any other religion, and there are certainly instances of their constituent members standing up. . That is not what is being touted when defenders toss out that 1.6 billion muslims number. When doing that those defenders tell us we must fear that great massive number as if it is a united block. Can't have it both ways Log. Just sayin', either you are correct or those other muslim defenders are. And yes that point of the 1.6 billion muslims that has been made here ..-Tyr

[Arbo]

so what other denomination have you seen supporting them?

Ah, the attempt to spin from 'stand up against' to 'supporting them'. Doesn't work. If you want those of a different religion to 'stand up against' the 'bad' in their religion, then it must hold constant no matter the religion, you can not change the goal post.

[Larrymc]

This 'Islamic community'-- what's that? Islam is as diverse as any other religion, and there are certainly instances of their constituent members standing up. I think you just discount them as you have with the instance in the OP, perpetuating the narrative that all Muslims are bad based upon the actions of relatively few. Which is ironic since you openly dismiss instances of muslims who openly oppose terrorism. Sadly you're no alone, media in general doesn't report the instances because if it doesn't bleed, it doesn't lead. But nonetheless, its happens.

http://nation.foxnews.com/coptic-christians/2011/01/15/egypts-muslims-attend-coptic-christmas-mass-serving-human-shields

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90854/7192595.html?

The 'Muslims don't do enough' demand reminds me a lot of the gun control fanatics demands where the instances of known opposition to mass murder was sufficient enough to deter such acts from occurring, and thus there's no report if such, being taken as definitive lack of evidence that gun possession deters such crime.What is the Islamic Community indeed, that may be the problem, unlike other religions Islam breeds many violent groups, Islam is known for infiltrating societies in peace, and then began to force there religion, so am i imagining these facts. sorry i don't have the time or the will to distinguish, and try to keep tabs on who is who.

[Arbo]

unlike other religions Islam breeds many violent groups,

Hutaree, The Gunpowder Plot, Army of God, National Liberation Front of Tripura, Lamb's of Christ, Orange Volunteers, Iron Guard, Lord's Resistance Army, Lăncieri, KKK, The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord, Defensive Action, The Freemen Community, Temple of Love, .... the list goes on and on. Are any of these violent groups Islamic?

[Larrymc]

Hutaree, The Gunpowder Plot, Army of God, National Liberation Front of Tripura, Lamb's of Christ, Orange Volunteers, Iron Guard, Lord's Resistance Army, Lăncieri, KKK, The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord, Defensive Action, The Freemen Community, Temple of Love, .... the list goes on and on. Are any of these violent groups Islamic?Boy your reaching, im seeing desperation, can you show any incident, in recent history involving any of these groups, the only one im aware of is the KKK anything on them? now that deserves a :laugh:

[aboutime]

Boy your reaching, im seeing desperation, can you show any incident, in recent history involving any of these groups, the only one im aware of is the KKK anything on them? now that deserves a :laugh:


Larrymc. Be careful. Arbo sounds like he's daring you to become a member of those groups, and give him credit for bringing in new members he can brag about.

[Gaffer]

Yes, the continued thinking that all Muslims are bad is indeed childish and silly. And ignorant and a few other things.

All muslims are not bad, just the religion they practice.

[Arbo]

Boy your reaching, im seeing desperation, can you show any incident, in recent history involving any of these groups, the only one im aware of is the KKK anything on them? now that deserves a :laugh:

Again you try to move the goal posts to defend your previous words. To remind you of what you said:


unlike other religions Islam breeds many violent groups

I gave a small sample of violent religious groups from other religions. Your statement was disproved.

[Arbo]

Larrymc. Be careful. Arbo sounds like he's daring you to become a member of those groups, and give him credit for bringing in new members he can brag about.

Hey look! Idiot boy gracing yet another thread with his OT crap. It is no surprise he has nothing to offer. And off to the cage this all will go.

[jafar00]

as i said an up raising from the Islamic community, publicly calling this trash what they say it is. we see daily Atrocity's done in the name of Islam, yet the Muslim community is silent.

Statements of condemnation of such attacks from Muslims are generally ignored by the press unfortunately. Besides, we are told the best place to protest is in the Mosque by praying and asking Allah to help.

[Larrymc]

Again you try to move the goal posts to defend your previous words. To remind you of what you said:



I gave a small sample of violent religious groups from other religions. Your statement was disproved.Not at all, the fact that there have been other Extreme religious groups in history hardly compares to Islam, still reaching

[Arbo]

Not at all, the fact that there have been other Extreme religious groups in history hardly compares to Islam, still reaching

Again I will remind you, you said:


unlike other religions Islam breeds many violent groups

So again you are trying to spin, move the goal posts and all that. Doesn't matter how this or that religion 'compares' to Islam. Your statement suggests that 'other religions' do not breed 'violent groups'. I listed several that disprove your statement.

Just about every religion has breed violence and violent groups. This is a historical (and often modern) fact.

[Larrymc]

Again I will remind you, you said:



So again you are trying to spin, move the goal posts and all that. Doesn't matter how this or that religion 'compares' to Islam. Your statement suggests that 'other religions' do not breed 'violent groups'. I listed several that disprove your statement.

Just about every religion has breed violence and violent groups. This is a historical (and often modern) fact.not trying to spin anything, the statement is still true, if you have a learning disability don't be embarrassed, just admit it and quit wasting peoples time.

,

[Larrymc]

Again I will remind you, you said:



So again you are trying to spin, move the goal posts and all that. Doesn't matter how this or that religion 'compares' to Islam. Your statement suggests that 'other religions' do not breed 'violent groups'. I listed several that disprove your statement.

Just about every religion has breed violence and violent groups. This is a historical (and often modern) fact.the only way you can argue is to spin, it gets old, The fact that there are fanatics in most religions, i wouldn't call them breeding, there holy book what ever it may be does not promote Violence, the way the Qur'an does.

[logroller]

Sorry, its about a muslim that went to fight to save his brother in that mall. It is not about a brave muslim that went there to fight them because they were dishonoring Islam. That dog is not going to hunt ,plain and simple. Guy was brave indeed but did so to try to save his brother no different than what I would have done except I would have taken pistol, long rifle ,plenty ammo and killed lots of them. Fact. Ever see what a 308 caliber hunting round does to its target? I have and its not a round a man wants to even touch any part of his body. I'd have no fear shooting Grizzly bears with it. Also I have a nice 45/70 which is even more powerful. --Tyr
You ask a hundred soldiers why he enlisted you'll get a bunch of answers; ask him who he fights for in the shit -- his brothers. That doesn't discount the merits of their service.
Along that line, I'd be honored to hunt/fight along side you. And when the shit hits the fan, I hope you won't discount the love of God and country.

[jafar00]

All muslims are not bad, just the religion they practice.

Our religion condemns acts of terrorism so why do you keep blaming Islam?

[Gaffer]

Our religion condemns acts of terrorism so why do you keep blaming Islam?

Because islam is responsible. If it was naked pictures I would blame that. If it was Buddhist I would blame that. If it was video games or music I would blame those. But the root cause of all the terror and violence is islam.

You yourself support hamas and its doctrine to wipe out Israel. You don't support terrorists or mass killings or bombings of innocents. That's all unislamic. You just throw your support to hamas and their killing of the evil Zionists as a side line thing, like hoping your favorite team goes to the play offs this year. And that's where your religion of peace stuff falls apart. Morally, financially or physically supporting a group is still supporting them. If you can't condemn them, in full, as you do AQ, then your a hypocrite.

I have even more in depth reasons for blaming islam if you want to know.

[Arbo]

not trying to spin anything, the statement is still true, if you have a learning disability don't be embarrassed, just admit it and quit wasting peoples time.

,

Love your DNC response. So nice and formula. That you can not handle the FACT that religions other than Islam have spawned plenty of violence, is your cross to bear, so to speak.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

What is the Islamic Community indeed, that may be the problem, unlike other religions Islam breeds many violent groups, Islam is known for infiltrating societies in peace, and then began to force there religion, so am i imagining these facts. sorry i don't have the time or the will to distinguish, and try to keep tabs on who is who. Islam and its defenders like to play these little games. Trying to force those that righty criticize its evil deeds to justify daring to present the documented proof. They seek to make such truth taboo. And this game is most often played by their non-muslim defenders. Its insidious and asinine to boot but attacking the messenger of truth is al they have because TRUTH can not be defeated. In my opinion the more they seek to banish truth the more we should present it. Now my favorite information site on Islam has been down for at least 4 days now. I am guessing either Obama admin shut it down or had government operatives cyber attack it. Obama is an avowed enemy of truth, Christians, patriots and our Constitution. Getting our guns first takes precedence over attacking and destroying Christianity with him. Make no mistake about it, if Obama the traitor gets our guns the Christians will be the first ones he has rounded up!--Tyr

[Arbo]

Obama is an avowed enemy of truth, Christians, patriots and our Constitution. Getting our guns first takes precedence over attacking and destroying Christianity with him. Make no mistake about it, if Obama the traitor gets our guns the Christians will be the first ones he has rounded up!--Tyr

Does it hurt to be so painfully dumb?

[Larrymc]

Islam and its defenders like to play these little games. Trying to force those that righty criticize its evil deeds to justify daring to present the documented proof. They seek to make such truth taboo. And this game is most often played by their non-muslim defenders. Its insidious and asinine to boot but attacking the messenger of truth is al they have because TRUTH can not be defeated. In my opinion the more they seek to banish truth the more we should present it. Now my favorite information site on Islam has been down for at least 4 days now. I am guessing either Obama admin shut it down or had government operatives cyber attack it. Obama is an avowed enemy of truth, Christians, patriots and our Constitution. Getting our guns first takes precedence over attacking and destroying Christianity with him. Make no mistake about it, if Obama the traitor gets our guns the Christians will be the first ones he has rounded up!--TyrAgreed

[jafar00]

Because islam is responsible.

Prove it.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Because islam is responsible. If it was naked pictures I would blame that. If it was Buddhist I would blame that. If it was video games or music I would blame those. But the root cause of all the terror and violence is islam.

You yourself support hamas and its doctrine to wipe out Israel. You don't support terrorists or mass killings or bombings of innocents. That's all unislamic. You just throw your support to hamas and their killing of the evil Zionists as a side line thing, like hoping your favorite team goes to the play offs this year. And that's where your religion of peace stuff falls apart. Morally, financially or physically supporting a group is still supporting them. If you can't condemn them, in full, as you do AQ, then your a hypocrite.

I have even more in depth reasons for blaming islam if you want to know. I predict that Jafar will just deny any proof you present Gaffer. Steve, Drummond , Jim ,myself and others have presented numerous verses from the Quran and all were rejected as being valid proof by Jafar. Seems only Jafar's interpretation counts, go figure on that one. As my 'ole grandpappy used to say, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink." :laugh:--Tyr

[Arbo]

I predict that Jafar will just deny any proof you present Gaffer.

Much in the way you deny EVERYTHING that might shatter your tiny little mind. :laugh:


Steve, Drummond , Jim ,myself and others have presented numerous verses from the Quran and all were rejected as being valid proof by Jafar. Seems only Jafar's interpretation counts, go figure on that one.

Let's see, when inconsistencies in the Bible are pointed out, the response is "you must be a believer to understand." Yet you all don't hold that to be the case with Islam. Hypocrites yet again.

[aboutime]

Prove it.



Jafar. PROVE IT ISN'T!

We can all play your game, and you'll never win.

[Arbo]

Jafar. PROVE IT ISN'T!

We can all play your game, and you'll never win.

Clearly you know nothing about debate, making claims, and the who holds the burden of proof. The only 'game' being played is by your ignorance of those things and trying to spin it, as you can not do as he asks. But expecting you to actually use facts and logic to back up ANYTHING you say is about the equivalent of expecting an elephant to beat the world pole volt record. :laugh:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You ask a hundred soldiers why he enlisted you'll get a bunch of answers; ask him who he fights for in the shit -- his brothers. That doesn't discount the merits of their service.
Along that line, I'd be honored to hunt/fight along side you. And when the shit hits the fan, I hope you won't discount the love of God and country. As I would you , just don't forget to bring extra ammo and a few extra cans of Vienna sausages. I applaud the man's service and even his service to his beliefs by way of possibly being a secondary consideration. Guy obviously is a brave man. Muslims can be brave and muslims can be good. To be good they have to interpret the Quran in a way in which it commands them to kill no innocent people regardless of their faith. The majority fail to do that as far as believing it and a big group of that majority actively engage worldwide in jihad. Sad but true. Family , God and country are always primary factors in my life. Tis' the major reason that I get so much vehement opposition on political sites.;) -Tyr

[Arbo]

Muslims can be brave and muslims can be good. To be good they have to interpret the Quran in a way in which it commands them to kill no innocent people regardless of their faith.

Huh? So when Jafar tells you what different passages mean, you tell him basically he 'doesn't know shit' about them, and declare yourself to be the most knowledgeable. Yet above you say they just need to do what Jafar has done. Wow, no lack of consistency there. :rolleyes:

[fj1200]

Let's see, when inconsistencies in the Bible are pointed out, the response is "you must be a believer to understand." Yet you all don't hold that to be the case with Islam. Hypocrites yet again.

That's why context is important. If you're going to look for inconsistencies you will certainly find them in any religious text.

[Larrymc]

That's why context is important. If you're going to look for inconsistencies you will certainly find them in any religious text.Apparently the Qur'an fails to clearly distinguish, the violence and the peaceful verses and when they apply. Like the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus, changed most of the old testament traditions, there is no verses in the new testament that could be interpreted to show violence or barbaric behavior. The fanatics you find in Christianity, generally use the old testament to justify their idiocracy. i believe i have ask this quiston before is there a clear change in the Qur'an to dispute any Violence after a certain point or time?

[jafar00]

Jafar. PROVE IT ISN'T!

We can all play your game, and you'll never win.

It's not up to me to disprove a claim that is not backed up at all. You saying Islam is to blame for terrorism is nothing more than your opinion however wrong that opinion may be.

Despite your closed minded bigotry, I have a few things from the Qur'aan for you to mull over.

O people of the Book, Our Apostle has come to you, announcing many things of the Scriptures that you have suppressed, passing over some others. To you has come light and a clear Book from God. Through which God will lead those who follow His pleasure to the path of peace, and guide them out of darkness into light by His will, and to the path that is straight. (5:15-16)

Whosoever kills a human being, except (as punishment) for murder or for spreading corruption in the land, it shall be like killing all humanity; and whosoever saves a life, saves the entire human race. (5:32)

God invites you to mansions of peace, and guides whosoever He will to the path that is straight. For those who do good there is goodness and more, and no blot or disgrace will cover their faces. They are people of Paradise, where they will abide for ever. But those who earn evil shall be punished to an equal degree as their evil, and they will be covered with shame, and will have none to protect them against God: Their faces shall be blackened as though with patches of the night. They are the people of Hell, where they will abide for ever. (10:25-27)


Before engaging in battle, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) instructed his soldiers:
1. “Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person.” (Sunan Abu Dawud)
2. “Do not practice treachery or mutilation.(Al-Muwatta)
3. Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees.(Al-Muwatta)
4. Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food.” (Al-Muwatta)
5. “If one fights his brother, [he must] avoid striking the face, for God created him in the image of Adam.” (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)
6. “Do not kill the monks in monasteries, and do not kill those sitting in places of worship. (Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal)
7. “Do not destroy the villages and towns, do not spoil the cultivated fields and gardens, and do not slaughter the cattle.” (Sahih Bukhari; Sunan Abu Dawud)
8. “Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy; pray to God to grant you security; but when you [are forced to] encounter them, exercise patience.” (Sahih Muslim)
9. “No one may punish with fire except the Lord of Fire.” (Sunan Abu Dawud).
10. “Accustom yourselves to do good if people do good, and to not do wrong even if they commit evil.” (Al-Tirmidhi)

- See more at: http://1000gooddeeds.com/2012/11/20/10-islamic-rules-of-war/#sthash.qTWJyazw.dpuf

You will not that none of these rules are followed by terrorists or terrorist groups. With that alone it is enough to condemn them as non Muslims.


Apparently the Qur'an fails to clearly distinguish, the violence and the peaceful verses and when they apply. Like the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus, changed most of the old testament traditions, there is no verses in the new testament that could be interpreted to show violence or barbaric behavior. The fanatics you find in Christianity, generally use the old testament to justify their idiocracy. i believe i have ask this quiston before is there a clear change in the Qur'an to dispute any Violence after a certain point or time?

That is why the Bible is corrupt. You keep changing it.

[Larrymc]

It's not up to me to disprove a claim that is not backed up at all. You saying Islam is to blame for terrorism is nothing more than your opinion however wrong that opinion may be.

Despite your closed minded bigotry, I have a few things from the Qur'aan for you to mull over.

O people of the Book, Our Apostle has come to you, announcing many things of the Scriptures that you have suppressed, passing over some others. To you has come light and a clear Book from God. Through which God will lead those who follow His pleasure to the path of peace, and guide them out of darkness into light by His will, and to the path that is straight. (5:15-16)

Whosoever kills a human being, except (as punishment) for murder or for spreading corruption in the land, it shall be like killing all humanity; and whosoever saves a life, saves the entire human race. (5:32)

God invites you to mansions of peace, and guides whosoever He will to the path that is straight. For those who do good there is goodness and more, and no blot or disgrace will cover their faces. They are people of Paradise, where they will abide for ever. But those who earn evil shall be punished to an equal degree as their evil, and they will be covered with shame, and will have none to protect them against God: Their faces shall be blackened as though with patches of the night. They are the people of Hell, where they will abide for ever. (10:25-27)

- See more at: http://1000gooddeeds.com/2012/11/20/10-islamic-rules-of-war/#sthash.qTWJyazw.dpuf

You will not that none of these rules are followed by terrorists or terrorist groups. With that alone it is enough to condemn them as non Muslims.



That is why the Bible is corrupt. You keep changing it.Keep changing it, there's is only before Christ and After, so my quiston on the Qur'an would be a no, that's why Islam will always riddle with Fanatics, and Extremist, and there for can't be trusted, you say Islam is peaceful, Extremist, they are called to convert or kill the infidel, and Jihad, and the Qur'an seems to back up both sides.

[fj1200]

Apparently the Qur'an fails to clearly distinguish, the violence and the peaceful verses and when they apply. Like the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus, changed most of the old testament traditions, there is no verses in the new testament that could be interpreted to show violence or barbaric behavior. The fanatics you find in Christianity, generally use the old testament to justify their idiocracy. i believe i have ask this quiston before is there a clear change in the Qur'an to dispute any Violence after a certain point or time?

That's your opinion, Jafar will argue til the end of time contrary to your point and if there is denial of context on either side then there will be no agreement. And I disagree, there could be verses in the NT that are interpreted to justify violent behavior; you and I may not agree with the interpretation but the question is the radicals and what they will do to pervert it. We were discussion Revelation 19 today in Sunday School and some verses could be interpreted to justify some means. We were cautioned against such though. Also, there are plenty of OT justifications made in certain circumstances. :cough: gays :cough:

[Larrymc]

That's your opinion, Jafar will argue til the end of time contrary to your point and if there is denial of context on either side then there will be no agreement. And I disagree, there could be verses in the NT that are interpreted to justify violent behavior; you and I may not agree with the interpretation but the question is the radicals and what they will do to pervert it. We were discussion Revelation 19 today in Sunday School and some verses could be interpreted to justify some means. We were cautioned against such though. Also, there are plenty of OT justifications made in certain circumstances. :cough: gays :cough:In Revaluations Gods wrath is falling on the earth, and the inhabitants of it, Christians are not being called to any violence, its to late, so unless you hold the God of the Bible to be the one true God, it would be foolish to bring that violent time up, sense God is at work there. as for as Homosexuals, im not aware of any call to violence against them in the OT and even though the OT stance on it still stands in the NT there's still no call for violence against the, not even hatred as they insist.

[fj1200]

In Revaluations Gods wrath is falling on the earth, and the inhabitants of it, Christians are not being called to any violence, its to late, so unless you hold the God of the Bible to be the one true God, it would be foolish to bring that violent time up, sense God is at work there. as for as Homosexuals, im not aware of any call to violence against them in the OT and even though the OT stance on it still stands in the NT there's still no call for violence against the, not even hatred as they insist.

We're discussing interpretation. Revelation could be interpreted in a violent manner. And I wasn't bringing up violence against gays but "fanatical Christians" using OT justification.

[Larrymc]

We're discussing interpretation. Revelation could be interpreted in a violent manner. And I wasn't bringing up violence against gays but "fanatical Christians" using OT justification.I see, your right no there's no accounting for Fanatics, I think this was a conversation for Jafar00:confused:

[Drummond]

Huh? So when Jafar tells you what different passages mean, you tell him basically he 'doesn't know shit' about them, and declare yourself to be the most knowledgeable. Yet above you say they just need to do what Jafar has done. Wow, no lack of consistency there. :rolleyes:

Jafar professes to know better than Islamic terrorists THEMSELVES do, whether or not they're Islamic. Which puts him in an awful lot of disagreement with an awful lot of terrorists ... an entire WORLD'S WORTH, in fact ! Including Hamas, by the way, whom Jafar consistently SUPPORTS !

Jafar also once claimed that the Shia weren't Islamic, either - which also brings him into sharp disagreement, for example, with Wikipedia ... which states, I quote ..


The Shia (Arabic: شيعة‎, Shīʿah) represent the second largest sect of Islam after Sunni Islam.

Check that text out from their site if you don't believe me. [I recall Marcus including this in his signature for a time, in reaction to Jafar's denial ...]

Care to place an estimate of the number of Islamists, in total, that all this means that Jafar is in fundamental disagreement with ? To the nearest MILLION will do ...

[jafar00]

they are called to convert or kill the infidel, and Jihad, and the Qur'an seems to back up both sides.

Which part? Your task is to convince me, a practising Muslim to go out and kill a bunch of innocent people using the Qur'aan to justify your claims. If half of what you are saying is true, I must be a pretty bad Muslim. I'm also surprised you are still alive with 1.5billion+ "jihadists" running about killing non believers.

[Larrymc]

Which part? Your task is to convince me, a practising Muslim to go out and kill a bunch of innocent people using the Qur'aan to justify your claims. If half of what you are saying is true, I must be a pretty bad Muslim. I'm also surprised you are still alive with 1.5billion+ "jihadists" running about killing non believers.getting me might be tough right now here in the states, but their working on it.

[jafar00]

getting me might be tough right now here in the states, but their working on it.

Don't forget to look for them behind the couch.

http://i.qkme.me/3u1h80.jpg

[Arbo]

Jafar professes to know better than Islamic terrorists THEMSELVES do,

Considering he is closer to the religion that you, it seems his view and interpretation would hold more value than his.


for example, with Wikipedia ... which states, I quote ..

wikipedia as a source! LOL. Now that's some funny shit! :laugh:

[Arbo]

getting me might be tough right now here in the states, but their working on it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :laugh::laugh:

[aboutime]

Don't forget to look for them behind the couch.

http://i.qkme.me/3u1h80.jpg



Jafar. How long were you a member of that club before they issued the Official Hat above?

[Drummond]

Considering he is closer to the religion that you, it seems his view and interpretation would hold more value than his.

But as I've explained, the world's Islamic terrorists (including Hamas) would strongly disagree.

I'd be happy to see evidence of Jafar debating this with his much-favoured Hamas (whose Charter, by the way, expresses some definite views about how Islamists should behave !). Indeed, I'd be happy to see if Jafar even survives the attempt (I would wish him luck in managing it) !


wikipedia as a source! LOL. Now that's some funny shit! :laugh:

No, it's a website, actually.

Do you reserve the same extent of derision, say, for the Times of India ?

See this ...

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-01-02/india/28120218_1_sects-caliphs-followers

... a detailed summary of Islam's sects. I quote -


THE SHIAS

The Shias are the second largest sect of Islam. Followers of Hazrat Ali, the fourth Caliph and son-in-law of Prophet Muhammad, the Shias oppose the institution of the caliphate and follow imamate (divine appointment as imams among the descendants of Hazrat Ali). The Shias believe that the Prophet's family (Ahl al-Bayt ), including his descendants known as Imams, have a divine right to rule over the community. Though a minority in the Muslim world, the Shias are in a majority in Iran (70 million). Over 90 per cent of the population in Iran is Shia while the minorities comprise Sunnis, Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians.


The differences between the Shias and the Sunnis were accentuated by the murder of Ali in 661 AD. His chief opponent , Muawiah, became caliph. Caliph Muawiah was later succeeded by his son Yazid, but Ali's son Hussain refused to accept his legitimacy and differences between the two erupted. Hussain and his followers were massacred in battle near Karbala and this gave rise to the Shia cult of martyrdom.


To this day, the Shias and Sunnis have a schism. Shia and Sunni militias have fought pitched battles in Iraq .....

'Not bad' for a so-called 'religion of peace' .. :laugh:

So tell me. Is Iran not a Muslim country ?

[Arbo]

But as I've explained, the world's Islamic terrorists (including Hamas) would strongly disagree.

People that murder innocents rate higher in your book than a member of this forum that does not murder innocent people. Very interesting.

[jafar00]

Jafar. How long were you a member of that club before they issued the Official Hat above?

I carry it with me always. I never know when Al Qaeda is going try to use their mind control ray on me.


But as I've explained, the world's Islamic terrorists (including Hamas) would strongly disagree.

Would you prefer me to become a terrorist because that is your opinion about Islam? Is it your contention that I am not a very good Muslim because I've never, nor do I intend on killing another human being?

[Drummond]

People that murder innocents rate higher in your book than a member of this forum that does not murder innocent people. Very interesting.

What exactly do you mean by 'People that murder innocents rate higher in your book than a member of this forum' .. ? 'Rate higher' .. how, exactly ?

Taking it to mean (I hope you mean nothing else !) that I take more notice, and consider more representative, the 'people' that murder innocents because I think that they better represent the truth of Islam, well ... there are so MANY of them, whereas Jafar is only one individual.

Did they all just 'coincidentally' get the reality of Islam 'wrong', and IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY, ALL COINCIDENTALLY, AND REGARDLESS OF WHERE IN THE WORLD THEY HAPPEN TO BE LOCATED ?

Besides - Larry has just posted a thread containing this link (you've seen it already, I think). Check this out -

http://freepatriot.org/2013/09/29/virginia-muslim-imam-calls-terror-attacks-america-response-u-s-government/?fb_source=pubv1


A controversial imam is urging immigrant Muslims in the United States to wage war for Islam. That would mean violence against average American citizens, basically he is calling for acts of terror in the homeland. Where is Homeland Security? Shouldn’t this be addressed and maybe even stopped?

Does this not rise to the levels of the basic definition of hate speech? Do we not take the threat of actions of terror seriously in this country anymore?

Maybe this guy is just another “Joe Biden” type that you let say stupid things because you know he really doesn’t understand the implications. No, that’s not it. Shaker Elsaed is a well-known religious leader at a large and prominent mosque in Arlington, VA. He’s serious.

Please explain to me how it is that Jafar's stance on the truth of Islam is, authoritatively speaking, to be far preferred over that of an IMAM.

And while you're at it, maybe you can explain (.. since Jafar seemingly CANNOT ..) how he reconciles himself as a 'peaceloving Islamist' with his support for HAMAS !!!

Good luck with that one !!!

[aboutime]

I carry it with me always. I never know when Al Qaeda is going try to use their mind control ray on me.



Would you prefer me to become a terrorist because that is your opinion about Islam? Is it your contention that I am not a very good Muslim because I've never, nor do I intend on killing another human being?


Jafar. Put yourself in our place for an instant. How would you feel about any of us if we told you, we fully supported MASS MURDERERS, SERIAL KILLERS, or DRUNKEN DRIVERS?

That is how we feel about you, and feel distrust for you when you often Tell us how much you support groups like HAMAS, and HEZBOLLA.

And you expect us to simply Overlook that, and accept you at face value while you hide safely in Australia...where you feel safe, and comfortable?????

Get it now????

[Drummond]

I carry it with me always. I never know when Al Qaeda is going try to use their mind control ray on me.

I believe they'd call it a Quran, Jafar.

In any case, I'm sure they'd consider their terrorism to have its own way of changing minds to their way of, er'm, 'thinking'.


Would you prefer me to become a terrorist because that is your opinion about Islam? Is it your contention that I am not a very good Muslim because I've never, nor do I intend on killing another human being?

What I would prefer, Jafar, is for all terrorists to stop their terrorism immediately, and for good, and become the peaceloving types you yourself profess to be (.. and yes, of course that includes your chums in Hamas ..). BUT THE POINT IS THAT IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, NOT THROUGH CHOICE !!

Terrorists, Jafar, see their terrorism as a product of Islam. They enact their savagery in the service of it.

And I ask you once more to consult the Hamas Charter. It seems abundantly clear from it that Hamas's own interpretation of a good Muslim is one always prepared to be fired up to fight their Jihadist wars. This being true - you STILL support the trash. Don't you ?

My suggestion is that you, as their professed chum, approach Hamas and persuade them that they should renounce their violence. Try sending some tweets on the subject to them !

And please, tell us how far you get ....

[Drummond]

Jafar. Put yourself in our place for an instant. How would you feel about any of us if we told you, we fully supported MASS MURDERERS, SERIAL KILLERS, or DRUNKEN DRIVERS?

That is how we feel about you, and feel distrust for you when you often Tell us how much you support groups like HAMAS, and HEZBOLLA.

And you expect us to simply Overlook that, and accept you at face value while you hide safely in Australia...where you feel safe, and comfortable?????

Get it now????:clap::clap::clap::goodposting::goodposting :

[Jeff]

This guy really is a Hero whether going in to get his brother or what ever the reason my hat is off to him, he shot up a bunch of animals , but I don't know that I would call him a Hero ( yes most do no matter the guys religion or ethnic background ) but personally whether my brother or any other member of my family was or wasn't in there I would of helped those in need and I think most that are smart enough to arm themselves would of done the same thing so it isn't so much being a hero as it is being a man but either way the guy did the right thing and my hat is off to him .

[jafar00]

Jafar. Put yourself in our place for an instant. How would you feel about any of us if we told you, we fully supported MASS MURDERERS, SERIAL KILLERS, or DRUNKEN DRIVERS?

That is how we feel about you, and feel distrust for you when you often Tell us how much you support groups like HAMAS, and HEZBOLLA.

And you expect us to simply Overlook that, and accept you at face value while you hide safely in Australia...where you feel safe, and comfortable?????

Get it now????

You're obsessed.

[aboutime]

you're obsessed.



agreed!......with the truth you cannot deny!

[Drummond]

You're obsessed.

I wonder if you'd be similarly dismissive of those who've been caught up in Islamic terrorist attacks ?

Maybe a man who's had a leg blown off by an Al Qaeda bomb could be said to be 'obsessed' in his hatred, his loathing, of the scum responsible ?

I wonder why ? H'm ?

Perhaps New York, in 2001, was full of 'obsessed' people, following the demolition of the Twin Towers ? I'd suggest that running for your life, with great clouds of rubble following you from a COLLAPSED SKYSCRAPER, is enough to cause a teeny bit of 'obsession' .. ?

But perhaps Americans should take it all in their stride, eh, Jafar ? So, 9/11 happened. Terrorism is a fact of 'life' these days, so why not just sit back in a comfy chair, relax, and wait for the next terrorist attack to come along and kill, and maim, more victims ?

Better that, eh, Jafar, than to ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT - TO FACE THE REALITY IT REPRESENTS - to 'obsess' about THE STINKING SCUM RESPONSIBLE ...

[aboutime]

Sir Drummond. Here is my obsession with jafar.

For those who have never seen this. Please Imagine...I am the man Yelling at the recruits....

And. I mean every word....directed at jafar first, and anyone else on this forum who dislikes, or hates me in any way.

But...it will make me feel better if you have the courage to listen, and pretend I am speaking to you.

http://youtu.be/5TNhS81w4bM

[Drummond]

Sir Drummond. Here is my obsession with jafar.

For those who have never seen this. Please Imagine...I am the man Yelling at the recruits....

And. I mean every word....directed at jafar first, and anyone else on this forum who dislikes, or hates me in any way.

But...it will make me feel better if you have the courage to listen, and pretend I am speaking to you.

http://youtu.be/5TNhS81w4bM:goodposting::goodposting:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I believe they'd call it a Quran, Jafar.

In any case, I'm sure they'd consider their terrorism to have its own way of changing minds to their way of, er'm, 'thinking'.



What I would prefer, Jafar, is for all terrorists to stop their terrorism immediately, and for good, and become the peaceloving types you yourself profess to be (.. and yes, of course that includes your chums in Hamas ..). BUT THE POINT IS THAT IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, NOT THROUGH CHOICE !!

Terrorists, Jafar, see their terrorism as a product of Islam. They enact their savagery in the service of it.

And I ask you once more to consult the Hamas Charter. It seems abundantly clear from it that Hamas's own interpretation of a good Muslim is one always prepared to be fired up to fight their Jihadist wars. This being true - you STILL support the trash. Don't you ?

My suggestion is that you, as their professed chum, approach Hamas and persuade them that they should renounce their violence. Try sending some tweets on the subject to them !

And please, tell us how far you get .... I'll tell you how far he would get. They'd flag his name and the next time he travelled to the ME HE 'D END UP MINUS A HEAD. I JUST BET HE KNOWS THAT AND WOULDNT DARE DO AS YOU SUGGEST.. ANYBODY THINK THEY ARENT KEEPING A LIST ON AMERICANS TO KILL IF EVER THEY VENTURE OVER THERE IS STUPID AND GULLIBLE AS HELL. -Tyr