NSA Spying Did Not Result In a SINGLE Foiled Terrorist Plot

[revelarts]

NSA Spying Did Not Result In a SINGLE Foiled Terrorist Plot
October 15, 2013

Source: Washington's Blog (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/10/nsa-spying-did-not-result-in-one-stopped-terrorist-plot-and-the-government-actually-did-spy-on-the-bad-guys-before-911.html)

Debunking Government’s Justification for Mass Surveillance
Preface: The Bush and Obama administrations have claimed for more than a decade that spying on Americans was justified by 9/11.
Senator Diane Feinstein – head of the Senate Intelligence Committee – is now trotting out the same old tired justification (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304520704579125950862794052.html?m od=WSJ_article_comments#articleTabs%3Darticle).
However – as demonstrated below – that claim is totally false.

No Stopped Terrorist Plots
TechDirt notes (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131014/12095624868/dianne-feinstein-plays-911-card-why-nsa-should-keep-spying-every-american.shtml):
Feinstein goes on to make … claims that have already been debunked:
Working in combination, the call-records database and other NSA programs have aided efforts by U.S. intelligence agencies to disrupt terrorism in the U.S. approximately a dozen times in recent years, according to the NSA. This summer, the agency disclosed that 54 terrorist events have been interrupted—including plots stopped and arrests made for support to terrorism. Thirteen events were in the U.S. homeland and nine involved U.S. persons or facilities overseas. Twenty-five were in Europe, five in Africa and 11 in Asia.
[The NSA chief himself admits (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/2/nsa-chief-figures-foiled-terror-plots-misleading/?page=all) the numbers are wildly inflated, and there were only "one or two" terrorist plots foiled.]
Note the all important “and other NSA programs” language here. Also the use of “terrorist events” not plots. And, remember, those “thirteen events… in the U.S. homeland,” have since been whittled down to only one that actually relied on the call records program that she’s defending — and that wasn’t a terrorist plot but a cab driver in San Diego sending some cash to a Somali group judged to be a terrorist organization.
Specifically, the cab driver and 3 other men raised a total of $8,500 (http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/Jan/30/somali-terrorism-trial-gets-underway/) and sent it to Somalia.
While the group the money was sent to was, in fact, designated as a terrorist organization in 2008 by the U.S., the FBI itself admits (http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/07/17/what-does-the-government-consider-protected-first-amendment-activities/) that the cab driver’s donation was more in the nature of a political – or eventribal – affiliation, rather than a terrorist one.
So there’s not a single terrorist attack proven to have been thwarted by the NSA. Instead, the entireOrwellian surveillance program (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/10/security-expert-the-details-matter-less-and-less-we-have-to-assume-that-the-nsa-has-everyone-who-uses-electronic-communications-under-constant-surveillance.html) is being justified by one San Diego cabbie sending his loose change ($8,500 divided by 4 is $2,125) to the other side of the world as a political/tribal contribution?
The Government Actually DID Spy On the Bad Guys Before 9/11 ProPublica notes (http://www.propublica.org/article/fact-check-the-nsa-and-sept-11):
In defending the NSA’s sweeping collection of Americans’ phone call records, Obama administration officials have repeatedly (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/dozens_of_attacks_thwarted_nXJ10NuP1kMd1RrIT1IU8J) pointed out (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/13/fbi-mueller-spy-tactics-9-11-boston) how it could have helped thwart the 9/11 attacks: If only the surveillance program been in place before Sept. 11, 2001, U.S. authorities would have been able to identify one of the future hijackers who was living in San Diego [named Khalid al Mihdhar].
Last weekend, former Vice President Dick Cheney invoked (http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/16/18987472-cheney-says-nsa-monitoring-could-have-prevented-911?lite) the same argument.

***
Indeed, the Obama administration’s invocation of the Mihdhar case echoes a nearly identical argument made by (http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2005/12/20051217.html) the Bush administration eight years ago when it defended the NSA’s warrantless wiretapping program.
The reality is different.
Initially, an FBI informant hosted and rented a room to Mihdhar and another 9/11 hijacker (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2002/09/15/exclusive-the-informant-who-lived-with-the-hijackers.html) in 2000.
Investigators for the Congressional Joint Inquiry discovered (http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/05/11/con05439.html) that an FBI informant had hosted and even rented a room to two hijackers in 2000 and that, when the Inquiry sought to interview the informant, the FBI refused outright, and then hid him in an unknown location, and that a high-level FBI official stated these blocking maneuvers were undertaken under orders from the White House.
As the New York Times notes (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/08/politics/08graham.html):
Senator Bob Graham, the Florida Democrat who is a former chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, accused the White House on Tuesday of covering up evidence ….The accusation stems from the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s refusal to allow investigators for a Congressional inquiry and the independent Sept. 11 commission to interview an informant, Abdussattar Shaikh, who had been the landlord in San Diego of two Sept. 11 hijackers.
So mass surveillance of Americans isn’t necessary, when the FBI informant should have apprehended the hijackers.
Moreover, the NSA actually did intercept Mihdhar’s phone calls before 9/11.
We reported (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2008/10/nsa-tapped-911-hijackers-phone-calls-for-2-years-inside-the-u-s.html) in 2008:
The U.S. government heard the 9/11 plans from the hijackers’ own mouth. Most of what we wrote about involved the NSA and other intelligence services tapping top Al Qaeda operatives’ phone calls outside the U.S.
However, as leading NSA expert James Bamford – the Washington Investigative Producer for ABC’s World News Tonight with Peter Jennings for almost a decade, winner of a number of journalism awards for coverage national security issues, whose articles have appeared in dozens of publications, including cover stories for the New York Times Magazine, Washington Post Magazine, and the Los Angeles Times Magazine, and the only author to write any books (he wrote 3) on the NSA – reports (http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/14/james_bamford_the_shadow_factory_the), the NSA was also tapping the hijackers’ phone calls inside the U.S.
Specifically, hijackers Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi lived in San Diego, California, for 2 years before 9/11. Numerous phone calls between al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi in San Diego and a high-level Al Qaeda operations base in Yemen were made in those 2 years.
The NSA had been tapping and eavesdropping on all calls made from that Yemen phone for years. So NSA recorded all of these phone calls.
Indeed, the CIA knew as far back as 1999 that al-Mihdhar was coming to the U.S. Specifically, in 1999, CIA operatives tailing al-Mihdhar in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, obtained a copy of his passport. It contained visas for both Malaysia and the U.S., so they knew it was likely he would go from Kuala Lumpur to America.
We asked top NSA whistleblower William Binney – a highly-credible (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden-whistleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/) 32-year NSA veteran with the title of senior technical director, who headed the agency’s digital data gathering program (featured in a New York Times documentary (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/23/opinion/the-national-security-agencys-domestic-spying-program.html), and the source for much of what we know about NSA spying) – what he thought of the government’s claim that mass surveillance of Americans would have caught Mihdhar and prevented 9/11.
Binney responded:[INDENT] Of course they could have and did have data on hijackers before 9/11. And, Prism did not start until 2007. But they could get the data from the “Upstream” collection. This is the Mark Klein documentation of Narus equipment in the NSA room in San Francisco and probably other places in the lower 48. They did not need Prism to discover that. Prism only suplemented the “Upstream” material starting in 2007 according to the slide.

.............

NSA Spying Did Not Result In a SINGLE Foiled Terrorist Plot | Washington's Blog (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/10/nsa-spying-did-not-result-in-one-stopped-terrorist-plot-and-the-government-actually-did-spy-on-the-bad-guys-before-911.html)

there's MUCH more at link

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

NSA Spying Did Not Result In a SINGLE Foiled Terrorist Plot
October 15, 2013

Source: Washington's Blog (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/10/nsa-spying-did-not-result-in-one-stopped-terrorist-plot-and-the-government-actually-did-spy-on-the-bad-guys-before-911.html)

Debunking Government’s Justification for Mass Surveillance
Preface: The Bush and Obama administrations have claimed for more than a decade that spying on Americans was justified by 9/11.
Senator Diane Feinstein – head of the Senate Intelligence Committee – is now trotting out the same old tired justification (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304520704579125950862794052.html?m od=WSJ_article_comments#articleTabs%3Darticle).
However – as demonstrated below – that claim is totally false.

No Stopped Terrorist Plots
TechDirt notes (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131014/12095624868/dianne-feinstein-plays-911-card-why-nsa-should-keep-spying-every-american.shtml):
Feinstein goes on to make … claims that have already been debunked:
Working in combination, the call-records database and other NSA programs have aided efforts by U.S. intelligence agencies to disrupt terrorism in the U.S. approximately a dozen times in recent years, according to the NSA. This summer, the agency disclosed that 54 terrorist events have been interrupted—including plots stopped and arrests made for support to terrorism. Thirteen events were in the U.S. homeland and nine involved U.S. persons or facilities overseas. Twenty-five were in Europe, five in Africa and 11 in Asia.
[The NSA chief himself admits (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/2/nsa-chief-figures-foiled-terror-plots-misleading/?page=all) the numbers are wildly inflated, and there were only "one or two" terrorist plots foiled.]
Note the all important “and other NSA programs” language here. Also the use of “terrorist events” not plots. And, remember, those “thirteen events… in the U.S. homeland,” have since been whittled down to only one that actually relied on the call records program that she’s defending — and that wasn’t a terrorist plot but a cab driver in San Diego sending some cash to a Somali group judged to be a terrorist organization.
Specifically, the cab driver and 3 other men raised a total of $8,500 (http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/Jan/30/somali-terrorism-trial-gets-underway/) and sent it to Somalia.
While the group the money was sent to was, in fact, designated as a terrorist organization in 2008 by the U.S., the FBI itself admits (http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/07/17/what-does-the-government-consider-protected-first-amendment-activities/) that the cab driver’s donation was more in the nature of a political – or eventribal – affiliation, rather than a terrorist one.
So there’s not a single terrorist attack proven to have been thwarted by the NSA. Instead, the entireOrwellian surveillance program (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/10/security-expert-the-details-matter-less-and-less-we-have-to-assume-that-the-nsa-has-everyone-who-uses-electronic-communications-under-constant-surveillance.html) is being justified by one San Diego cabbie sending his loose change ($8,500 divided by 4 is $2,125) to the other side of the world as a political/tribal contribution?
The Government Actually DID Spy On the Bad Guys Before 9/11 ProPublica notes (http://www.propublica.org/article/fact-check-the-nsa-and-sept-11):
In defending the NSA’s sweeping collection of Americans’ phone call records, Obama administration officials have repeatedly (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/dozens_of_attacks_thwarted_nXJ10NuP1kMd1RrIT1IU8J) pointed out (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/13/fbi-mueller-spy-tactics-9-11-boston) how it could have helped thwart the 9/11 attacks: If only the surveillance program been in place before Sept. 11, 2001, U.S. authorities would have been able to identify one of the future hijackers who was living in San Diego [named Khalid al Mihdhar].
Last weekend, former Vice President Dick Cheney invoked (http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/16/18987472-cheney-says-nsa-monitoring-could-have-prevented-911?lite) the same argument.

***
Indeed, the Obama administration’s invocation of the Mihdhar case echoes a nearly identical argument made by (http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2005/12/20051217.html) the Bush administration eight years ago when it defended the NSA’s warrantless wiretapping program.
The reality is different.
Initially, an FBI informant hosted and rented a room to Mihdhar and another 9/11 hijacker (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2002/09/15/exclusive-the-informant-who-lived-with-the-hijackers.html) in 2000.
Investigators for the Congressional Joint Inquiry discovered (http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/05/11/con05439.html) that an FBI informant had hosted and even rented a room to two hijackers in 2000 and that, when the Inquiry sought to interview the informant, the FBI refused outright, and then hid him in an unknown location, and that a high-level FBI official stated these blocking maneuvers were undertaken under orders from the White House.
As the New York Times notes (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/08/politics/08graham.html):
Senator Bob Graham, the Florida Democrat who is a former chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, accused the White House on Tuesday of covering up evidence ….The accusation stems from the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s refusal to allow investigators for a Congressional inquiry and the independent Sept. 11 commission to interview an informant, Abdussattar Shaikh, who had been the landlord in San Diego of two Sept. 11 hijackers.
So mass surveillance of Americans isn’t necessary, when the FBI informant should have apprehended the hijackers.
Moreover, the NSA actually did intercept Mihdhar’s phone calls before 9/11.
We reported (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2008/10/nsa-tapped-911-hijackers-phone-calls-for-2-years-inside-the-u-s.html) in 2008:
The U.S. government heard the 9/11 plans from the hijackers’ own mouth. Most of what we wrote about involved the NSA and other intelligence services tapping top Al Qaeda operatives’ phone calls outside the U.S.
However, as leading NSA expert James Bamford – the Washington Investigative Producer for ABC’s World News Tonight with Peter Jennings for almost a decade, winner of a number of journalism awards for coverage national security issues, whose articles have appeared in dozens of publications, including cover stories for the New York Times Magazine, Washington Post Magazine, and the Los Angeles Times Magazine, and the only author to write any books (he wrote 3) on the NSA – reports (http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/14/james_bamford_the_shadow_factory_the), the NSA was also tapping the hijackers’ phone calls inside the U.S.
Specifically, hijackers Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi lived in San Diego, California, for 2 years before 9/11. Numerous phone calls between al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi in San Diego and a high-level Al Qaeda operations base in Yemen were made in those 2 years.
The NSA had been tapping and eavesdropping on all calls made from that Yemen phone for years. So NSA recorded all of these phone calls.
Indeed, the CIA knew as far back as 1999 that al-Mihdhar was coming to the U.S. Specifically, in 1999, CIA operatives tailing al-Mihdhar in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, obtained a copy of his passport. It contained visas for both Malaysia and the U.S., so they knew it was likely he would go from Kuala Lumpur to America.
We asked top NSA whistleblower William Binney – a highly-credible (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden-whistleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/) 32-year NSA veteran with the title of senior technical director, who headed the agency’s digital data gathering program (featured in a New York Times documentary (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/23/opinion/the-national-security-agencys-domestic-spying-program.html), and the source for much of what we know about NSA spying) – what he thought of the government’s claim that mass surveillance of Americans would have caught Mihdhar and prevented 9/11.
Binney responded:[INDENT] Of course they could have and did have data on hijackers before 9/11. And, Prism did not start until 2007. But they could get the data from the “Upstream” collection. This is the Mark Klein documentation of Narus equipment in the NSA room in San Francisco and probably other places in the lower 48. They did not need Prism to discover that. Prism only suplemented the “Upstream” material starting in 2007 according to the slide.

.............

NSA Spying Did Not Result In a SINGLE Foiled Terrorist Plot | Washington's Blog (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/10/nsa-spying-did-not-result-in-one-stopped-terrorist-plot-and-the-government-actually-did-spy-on-the-bad-guys-before-911.html)

there's MUCH more at link A lot of hanky /panky and even stanky they have been playing to justify their part in the great socialist remaking of this nation! Damn sure looks like Obama wants to be the guy given the most credit in accomplishing that.. which is actually treason IMHO..Tyr

[gabosaurus]

How would a right-wing blog know this? I call bullshit.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

How would a right-wing blog know this? I call bullshit. Exactly what I have been thinking for decades about the Dem party and about Obama ever since researching who he was. :laugh:--Tyr

[revelarts]

How would a right-wing blog know this? I call bullshit.

Just check the numerous sources given Gab, not your bias's and assumptions here.
it's fact.

the post 9/11 Intel community has lost it's freaking mind and every president loves it.

More money, corruption of power and CYA projects have been the priorities, not our safety.
if you'd go back and read some of my other post with interviews with former top NSA folks, and a few FBI and DIA people you'll see that's the picture they paint.

the Old ways got enough intel to do the job, But they didn't use the Intel. And the new options to make those old methods better WITHOUT the wholesale spying were NOT applied.

Zero foiled terror attacks in the "war on terror"

[jafar00]

But people will still happily give up their freedom just in case the Al Qaeda sleeper cell under their couch is awakened.

[Gaffer]

But people will still happily give up their freedom just in case the Al Qaeda sleeper cell under their couch is awakened.

Only liberals and the uninformed (that's actually the same thing) will give up freedoms. The rest of us will thumb our noses at the security circus. The AQ cells will come out when they are told too.

[hjmick]

Well, at least they know who's on our "buddy" lists...

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Only liberals and the uninformed (that's actually the same thing) will give up freedoms. The rest of us will thumb our noses at the security circus. The AQ cells will come out when they are told too. Jafar does his religion a great service by proclaiming by way of a sarcastic remark that America fears muslim sleeper cells that do not exist. When the truth they do exist and I am of the opinion he knows they do but refuses to admit it. Which in my opinion is Jafar placing his religion before truth and honor. Now its well known muslims are taught to place nothing before Allah, The Quran and Mohammad BUT WE NOT BRAINWASHED PEOPLE KNOW WHO AUTHORS BELIEVING LIES AND DENYING TRUTH! CHRIST DIED TO DEFEAT HIM..AND DID JUST THAT... Logic would therefore dictate that Islam the religion has it's very own special link to the master deceiver. A good look at the known life of it's founder Mohammad points to his having been crazy, a murderer, a rapist, a child molester and likely demon possessed too IMHO.--Tyr

[red states rule]

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/holb_c11317720131029120100.jpg

[revelarts]

Three Democratic senators filed a brief in federal court on Tuesday supporting a lawsuit to end the National Security Agency's bulk collection of phone records.

Sens. Mark Udall (Colo.), Ron Wyden (Ore.) and Martin Heinrich (N.M.), who all have access to classified information as members of the Senate Intelligence Committee, argued that the controversial program does little to combat terrorism.

"[The senators] have reviewed this surveillance extensively and have seen no evidence that the bulk collection of Americans’ phone records has provided any intelligence of value that could not have been gathered through less intrusive means," lawyers for the lawmakers wrote.

They argued that more targeted surveillance programs could have been used to gather the same information that the NSA obtained through the phone data collection.

"Because the government’s call-records program needlessly intrudes upon the privacy rights of hundreds of millions of Americans, [the senators] believe the bulk collection of these phone records should be ended," they wrote.

The controversial program collects phone numbers, call times and call durations on virtually all U.S. phone calls, but not the contents of communications.

The lawmakers filed their brief to support a lawsuit from a coalition of civil liberties groups led by the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

The lawsuit claims that the bulk collection violates constitutional rights to privacy, free speech and free association. Public Knowledge, TechFreedom, a Unitarian church and a California gun rights group also signed on to the suit, which was filed in California.

The senators are also pushing legislation to end the bulk phone data collection....

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/190787-senators-no-evidence-nsa-phone-sweeps-are-useful

It should be enough to say that it's UNCONSTITUTIONAL so it should stop, but at the least NOW,
it's time to get real, not just assume ANYTHING the gov't does to "protect" us is useful.

the NSA blanket spying (and the TSA btw) are useless and criminal. we need to stop selling our rights for BS protection and stop pouring money down the rat holes.

[red states rule]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3ngzsu50CQw/UpdOrC7yl2I/AAAAAAABvPo/mVWzla56xfM/s1600/funny_picdump_540_640_50.jpg

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The single largest entity operating as a terrorist organization against this nation is the Obama administration. I agree Obama is a larger threat right now than Islam is but we must not ignore he works to advance Islam too!
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/07/07/nasas_muslim_outreach_106214.html NASA's Muslim Outreach

By Mona Charen - July 7, 2010
It's not really surprising that President Obama told NASA administrator Charles Bolden that his highest priority should be "to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science ... and math and engineering." It fits with so much that we already knew about the president.

It is consistent with his wildly exaggerated concept of governmental and presidential power and competence. Samuel Johnson wrote: "How small, of all that human hearts endure, that part which laws or kings can cause or cure." Obama believes the opposite -- that his presidency can be a transformative moment not just for the nation, but for the world. He will halt global warming and stop the rise of the oceans, transition America to a green energy future, prevent the "cycle of boom and bust" in the economy, provide universal health care while spending less than before, cushion "underwater" mortgage holders without rewarding profligate borrowers, increase taxes on the "rich" without harming the middle class, solve the problem of excessive public debt by amassing more public debt and so on.





How in the world would NASA help Muslim nations to "feel good" about themselves? Would NASA hold science fairs in Tripoli or Tehran? Produce and circulate propaganda films about Great Muslim Men (careful, never women) of Science? Stress our global debt to Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi, the father of algebra? (That's risky, since al-Khwarizmi reportedly learned his math from the Indians.) How would Obama's NASA chief undertake to alter the civilizational self-esteem of a billion people?

Of course, it's entirely possible (pace Bernard Lewis) that the Muslim world does not lack for self-esteem on the matter of science or anything else. Certainly, scientific know-how has not been lacking in nuclear-armed Pakistan or (would be) nuclear Iran. Besides, hasn't Obama heard? The whole self-esteem myth has been exploded. Though millions of tax dollars and God only knows how many wasted instructional hours have gone toward making American kids think they are really, really special, it turns out that there is zero correlation between such drilled self-esteem and academic performance. (See Scientific American, January 2005)

The Obama directive to NASA also revealed a mental tic common to liberals -- the tendency to universalize the African-American experience. Just as African-Americans were denied their rights and dignity, goes this reasoning, so today fill-in-the-blank are being persecuted or demeaned -- women, gays, Muslims, the handicapped, illegal immigrants, Palestinians, "people of color."


Read more: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/07/07/nasas_muslim_outreach_106214.html#ixzz2mGqMK5BI

[red states rule]

http://media2.policymic.com/d03e5a353d7c5319df1994a06ab2f188.jpg

[red states rule]

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/lb1206cd20131205101145.jpg

[revelarts]

John Stewart NAILS the NSA lies
with a ongoing series of
"ongoing series of reports 'that thing they say they are not doing, THEY ARE TOTALLY DOING!!'"

http://www.ijreview.com/2013/12/100722-jon-stewart-smokes-obama-nsa-lying-program-like-spying/?utm_source=EmailElect&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=Subscriber%2311643&utm_campaign=12-11-2013%20IJ%20Review

[Arbo]

But people will still happily give up their freedom just in case the Al Qaeda sleeper cell under their couch is awakened.

It's because they are a bunch of frightened little babies.

[red states rule]

It's because they are a bunch of frightened little babies.

Or perhaps we are trying to stop another one of "incidents" from happening again asshole

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRuytnNKnCuN1A5f6m4Y_6ZEezZGtV_f zUf0qY_BPqfUn0yqlfp



http://verysmartbrothas.com/images/9-11.jpg?c07647

[Arbo]

Or perhaps we are trying to stop another one of "incidents" from happening again asshole

So let me get this right, you have been posting comics that show a certain level of outrage at government spying, the whole thread is based on a claim that it hasn't lead to the capture of any terrorists or stopping of any terrorist plots, a user says that even that being the case people will give up their freedoms 'just in case' the bad guy is around… to which I say that's because they are a bunch of sissies….

then you defend the spying?

Wow, talk about some serious cognitive detachment.

[fj1200]

It's because they are a bunch of frightened little babies.

They don't want to be judged on results, just their intentions. ;)

[red states rule]

So let me get this right, you have been posting comics that show a certain level of outrage at government spying, the whole thread is based on a claim that it hasn't lead to the capture of any terrorists or stopping of any terrorist plots, a user says that even that being the case people will give up their freedoms 'just in case' the bad guy is around… to which I say that's because they are a bunch of sissies….

then you defend the spying?

Wow, talk about some serious cognitive detachment.

Has the NSA gone too far - you bet

Does someone need to step in and redirect their efforts - absolutely

Instead of playing video games they need to direct their efforts to watching those who are most likely to commit acts of terror against America

Young Middle Eastern men. I believe their intent is too prevent another 9/11 and they need to get back to that primary target

Appeasers like you and your buddies here would be the first to scream after a successful attack why the Feds did not stop the attack - then deny you were the ones opposed to the methods used to track terrorists

[Arbo]

Has the NSA gone too far - you bet

Does someone need to step in and redirect their efforts - absolutely

Instead of playing video games they need to direct their efforts to watching those who are most likely to commit acts of terror against America

Young Middle Eastern men. I believe their intent is too prevent another 9/11 and they need to get back to that primary target

Appeasers like you and your buddies here would be the first to scream after a successful attack why the Feds did not stop the attack - then deny you were the ones opposed to the methods used to track terrorists

You really are not much in touch with reality are you? I say this because you post the most insane shit, over and over. So what NSA was doing was bad at first, then you shifted to it was good because of 'those muslims' they might catch.. Full circle and it appears your position depends on who you are responding to. Flat out pathetic.

Appeasers? Who is appeasing what? Who is opposed to what they are doing? Hey, how about for once in your life, you try to get all your ducks in a row before posting and embarrassing yourself?

[red states rule]

You really are not much in touch with reality are you? I say this because you post the most insane shit, over and over. So what NSA was doing was bad at first, then you shifted to it was good because of 'those muslims' they might catch.. Full circle and it appears your position depends on who you are responding to. Flat out pathetic.

Appeasers? Who is appeasing what? Who is opposed to what they are doing? Hey, how about for once in your life, you try to get all your ducks in a row before posting and embarrassing yourself?

For every dumbass statement you have ever said, there must be thousands of dumbass things you have not said

[Arbo]

For every dumbass statement you have ever said, there must be thousands of dumbass things you have not said

I understand you believe such things, and must abuse a part of the system even when even your brethren have stopped that stilly game. But your false beliefs have nothing to do with the reality that you posted stuff in like with disliking what the NSA is 'up to' yet turned your opinion around… busted is busted, and you were.

[revelarts]

Not My NSA:
Big Brother Is For the Benefit of The State and Big Business...


The big, scary terrorism argument for having an unwieldy and unconstitutional NSA surveillance apparatus has been slowly (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://antiwar.com/blog/2013/10/15/no-nsa-surveillance-wouldnt-have-prevented-911-and-it-hasnt-foiled-a-single-terror-plot/&sa=U&ei=b3i0UtylComy2QXYoICIAQ&ved=0CAYQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGpMQRQlSdu_pLFQ19R1LKQiNngOg) disintegrating (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://antiwar.com/blog/2013/10/08/fun-fact-nsas-collection-of-americanss-metadata-doesnt-make-us-safer/&sa=U&ei=gni0UojhPKmI2wX4q4HoAg&ved=0CAYQFjAB&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGqeFv-79euGqp9noK1QlPxItc6LQ) since the start of Snowden’s leaks. This week was really the death knell (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://antiwar.com/blog/2013/12/19/all-three-branches-of-govt-agree-nsas-bulk-metadata-collection-doesnt-thwart-terrorism/&sa=U&ei=gni0UojhPKmI2wX4q4HoAg&ved=0CAcQFjAC&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHklPasQanAGVGiYZsX3a5ruZFtIA), with all three branches of government agreeing, at least, that the bulk metadata program doesn’t actually thwart terrorists.
The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/officials-defenses-of-nsa-phone-program-may-be-unraveling/2013/12/19/6927d8a2-68d3-11e3-ae56-22de072140a2_story.html):

From the moment the government’s massive database of citizens’ call records was exposed this year, U.S. officials have clung to two main lines of defense: The secret surveillance program was constitutional and critical to keeping the nation safe.
But six months into the controversy triggered by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden, the viability of those claims is no longer clear.
In a three-day span, those rationales were upended by a federal judge who declared that the program was probably unconstitutional (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/judge-nsas-collecting-of-phone-records-is-likely-unconstitutional/2013/12/16/6e098eda-6688-11e3-a0b9-249bbb34602c_story.html) and the release of a report by a White House panel utterly unconvinced that stockpiling such data had played any meaningful role in preventing terrorist attacks (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-shouldnt-keep-phone-database-review-board-recommends/2013/12/18/f44fe7c0-67fd-11e3-a0b9-249bbb34602c_story.html).
But there is more evidence that the terrorism justification for these programs is bullshit. Today the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/21/world/nsa-dragnet-included-allies-aid-groups-and-business-elite.html?_r=0) reports that “Secret documents reveal more than 1,000 targets of American and British surveillance in recent years, including the office of an Israeli prime minister, heads of international aid organizations, foreign energy companies and a European Union official involved in antitrust battles with American technology businesses.”
It’s funny how NSA officials, when they are pulled onto Capitol Hill to testify in front of Congress, never mention the fact that a large part of NSA surveillance targets allies and bureaucratic heads of innocuous aid organizations. It’s hard to create domestic political acceptance of Big Brother when not even the most paranoid phobic considers their surveillance targets a threat.
The targeting of foreign businesses is especially noteworthy, since it is essentially economic espionage. The government can’t seriously claim that spying on Joaquín Almunia, the vice president of the European Commission, is done to protect Americans from foreign attacks. The commission “has broad authority over local and foreign companies, and has punished a number of American companies, including Microsoft and Intel, with heavy fines for hampering fair competition,” the Times reports.
NSA has been spying on the Brazilian oil company Petrobras (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/09/us-usa-security-snowden-petrobras-idUSBRE98817N20130909) and in October President Obama ordered the NSA to halt (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/31/obama-nsa-world-bank_n_4184631.html) surveillance of the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank.
The White House has explicitly denied (http://news.yahoo.com/white-house-denies-nsa-spies-on-allies-for-economic-warfare-174903245.html) that the NSA spies for economic warfare. ”We do not use our intelligence capabilities for that purpose. We use it for security purposes,” spokesman Jay Carney insisted.
I think it’s time the government drop the issuance of public denials on that front. It’s clear NSA spies for the sake of the government and the business elite, not to protect the people.





All Three Branches of Gov’t Agree: NSA’s Bulk Metadata Collection Doesn’t Thwart Terrorism (http://antiwar.com/blog/2013/12/19/all-three-branches-of-govt-agree-nsas-bulk-metadata-collection-doesnt-thwart-terrorism/)

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Not My NSA:
Big Brother Is For the Benefit of The State and Big Business... Right now its to benefit Obama and his weaken/destroy power of America agenda. --Tyr

[revelarts]

Right now its to benefit Obama and his weaken/destroy power of America agenda. --Tyr

OK maybe, but what was it when Bush was doing it? And when Romney promised to continue to do it?

[jimnyc]

OK maybe, but what was it when Bush was doing it? And when Romney promised to continue to do it?

Romney promised to continue NSA spying? I honestly didn't even know it was exposed back then, at least not to this degree, if at all. Anyone that would try to run on that right now would be pushed out of town.

[revelarts]

Romney promised to continue NSA spying? I honestly didn't even know it was exposed back then, at least not to this degree, if at all. Anyone that would try to run on that right now would be pushed out of town.

Yeah he rarely mentioned it outright, But Romeny siad he wanted to spy and bug mosques, churches where ever and who ever willy nilly, to 'git dem terrorist'. And he blew off constitutional ideas of civil rights and the bill of rights because they are gonna kill us all.

[jimnyc]

Yeah he rarely mentioned it outright, But Romeny siad he wanted to spy and bug mosques, churches where ever and who ever willy nilly, to 'git dem terrorist'. And he blew off constitutional ideas of civil rights and the bill of rights because they are gonna kill us all.

The way I looked at it in the past was under the idea that they had the ABILITY to do so, to anyone they find involved in activities that can be related to terrorism, and then had a judges approval. But blanket recording of pretty much anything? Talk about getting caught with your hands in the cookie jar.

[revelarts]

(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/04/mitt-romney-homeland-security-massachusetts_n_1467940.html)Mitt Romney Homeland Security Record In Massachusetts: Domestic Spying, Wiretapping

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/04/mitt-romney-homeland-security-massachusetts_n_1467940.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/04/mitt-romney-homeland-security-massachusetts_n_1467940.html)


he loves the idea of domestic spying.

[fj1200]

Devil's advocate:

Government/NSA collection of metadata is as Constitutional as the local po-po tagging my license plate every time I drive through town as we are using public airwaves just as we use public rights of way.







lookin' @ u rev :poke:

[revelarts]

Devil's advocate:

Government/NSA collection of metadata is as Constitutional as the local po-po tagging my license plate every time I drive through town as we are using public airwaves just as we use public rights of way.

lookin' @ u rev :poke:

why do you want to get me stared again?

2 letters for it,
BS.


Who says the popo can "tag your car? what part of the constitution is that again, the illegal search, or the secure in your property, the due process part, or the all rights not mentioned belong to the people part?

the metadata is just as private as the other data they are getting, does the gov't really own the cell phone companies so they are all "public" and you seem to mean public like area 51, not public like a local park. only gov't access to all data in secret.

bottom line if there's no probable cause then they have NO basis to request, let alone collect a thing from any ones personal or biz accounts ANYWHERE.
totalitarian gov'ts tell people "we must search everything and you need to like it. If not the boggie mans gonna get you."
he Stasi in East Germany, the Communist Chinese, the Soviets and others.
wrapping the same and worse methods in an American flag and IMAGINING that "it's OK if our boys do it." is crazy to me.

If the bill of rights isn't going to be just a historical doc like the code of Hammurabi we can't play at devils advocate.
the founders understood what many today don't, that rights lost are re-won hard if at all.
There's always some horrible threat that the gov't can claim to be protecting us from. NONE of them should steal our liberties to do it.

ya got me monologuing...

[fj1200]

why do you want to get me stared again?

2 letters for it,
BS.


Who says the popo can "tag your car? what part of the constitution is that again, the illegal search, or the secure in your property, the due process part, or the all rights not mentioned belong to the people part?

the metadata is just as private as the other data they are getting, does the gov't really own the cell phone companies so they are all "public" and you seem to mean public like area 51, not public like a local park. only gov't access to all data in secret.

bottom line if there's no probable cause then they have NO basis to request, let alone collect a thing from any ones personal or biz accounts ANYWHERE.
totalitarian gov'ts tell people "we must search everything and you need to like it. If not the boggie mans gonna get you."
he Stasi in East Germany, the Communist Chinese, the Soviets and others.
wrapping the same and worse methods in an American flag and IMAGINING that "it's OK if our boys do it." is crazy to me.

If the bill of rights isn't going to be just a historical doc like the code of Hammurabi we can't play at devils advocate.
the founders understood what many today don't, that rights lost are re-won hard if at all.
There's always some horrible threat that the gov't can claim to be protecting us from. NONE of them should steal our liberties to do it.

ya got me monologuing...

Because it's what I do. :slap:

Anyway... I have no expectation of privacy when the police take a picture of my license plate as I drive down a public street, arguably there is nothing unconstitutional about that; not illegal, you're still secure in your property, and due process hasn't been violated. We all have the privilege of using cell phones, etc. on public airwaves so our expectation of privacy of metadata is nil as well. Having said that it doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be Congressionally authorized, etc. etc.

/devil's advocate

[revelarts]

Because it's what I do. :slap:

Anyway... I have no expectation of privacy when the police take a picture of my license plate as I drive down a public street, arguably there is nothing unconstitutional about that; not illegal, you're still secure in your property, and due process hasn't been violated. We all have the privilege of using cell phones, etc. on public airwaves so our expectation of privacy of metadata is nil as well. Having said that it doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be Congressionally authorized, etc. etc.

/devil's advocate
the devil is a lair.
you have an extremely flawed argument.
"public airways" does not mean the gov't has the right to spy. and the FCC only regulates the "air" traffic it does not give it a right to record all private communications traffic.

Your mail travels down public roads FJ, in public truck by, carried by public servants, so does that mean the gov't should read it?
Your car is on a public highway so they should be able to not only regulate your speed, but search the car as well correct?
If you go to a public rest room you should have no expectation that your actions there should not be recorded. Because they will only record your 'meta data' just your body stats, length of visit, amount of waste you discharged and any odd features or actions. no "personal data".

Public regulation of a service or area does not mean the gov't has a right of access to all private uses.
The gov't needs a warrnant to open mail same applies to non public e-communications.

And why are you still talking about "meta data" as if that should get a pass anyway when it's been shown that they are recording all communications?

[fj1200]

the devil is a lair.
you have an extremely flawed argument.
"public airways" does not mean the gov't has the right to spy. and the FCC only regulates the "air" traffic it does not give it a right to record all private communications traffic.

Your mail travels down public roads FJ, in public truck by, carried by public servants, so does that mean the gov't should read it?
Your car is on a public highway so they should be able to not only regulate your speed, but search the car as well correct?
If you go to a public rest room you should have no expectation that your actions there should not be recorded. Because they will only record your 'meta data' just your body stats, length of visit, amount of waste you discharged and any odd features or actions. no "personal data".

Public regulation of a service or area does not mean the gov't has a right of access to all private uses.
The gov't needs a warrnant to open mail same applies to non public e-communications.

And why are you still talking about "meta data" as if that should get a pass anyway when it's been shown that they are recording all communications?

The argument is possibly flawed but not why you keep saying. Metadata is the same as them recording my license plate while not scanning for the (medicinal amount of) weed ;) in the trunk.

As to your PO example, I believe there to be a Federal law making it a crime to open mail, not that you don't have expectations of privacy there anyway, but I don't see the same argument that they can't track "metadata" on your mailing habits to provide better service. wink, wink.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Because it's what I do. :slap:

Anyway... I have no expectation of privacy when the police take a picture of my license plate as I drive down a public street, arguably there is nothing unconstitutional about that; not illegal, you're still secure in your property, and due process hasn't been violated. We all have the privilege of using cell phones, etc. on public airwaves so our expectation of privacy of metadata is nil as well. Having said that it doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be Congressionally authorized, etc. etc.

/devil's advocate Do you care to put forth the argument that the Founders intended for the Federal government to be able to record every damn thing about every citizens communication??? If not then you shouldn't be making the defense you do by downplaying what the New Obama Gestapo is doing IMHO. THE NET RESULT IS THAT BIG GOVERNMENT HAS GRABBED FAR, FAR TOO MUCH POWER AND BY DOING SO HAS USURPED THE CONSTITUTION AND ATTACKED ITS OWN LAW ABIDING CITIZENS . And that's not chump change or even anywhere near close to it.-Tyr

[fj1200]

Do you care to put forth the argument that the Founders intended for the Federal government to be able to record every damn thing about every citizens communication??? If not then you shouldn't be making the defense you do by downplaying what the New Obama Gestapo is doing IMHO. THE NET RESULT IS THAT BIG GOVERNMENT HAS GRABBED FAR, FAR TOO MUCH POWER AND BY DOING SO HAS USURPED THE CONSTITUTION AND ATTACKED ITS OWN LAW ABIDING CITIZENS . And that's not chump change or even anywhere near close to it.-Tyr

Well right now I'm putting forth the argument that metadata over public airwaves is no different than the police recording my license plate on a public right of way, I bet it's useful to protect kids doncha know. And I'm pretty sure I've put forth the argument in the past that government has grabbed far too much power, prior than 5 years ago too btw, but some 'conservatives' have put forth the argument that the threat we face now is so grave that some Constitutional protections are, shall we say, old fashioned and shouldn't be wrapped up in some sort of "suicide pact;" I can't recall your stance on some of those issues at the moment.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Well right now I'm putting forth the argument that metadata over public airwaves is no different than the police recording my license plate on a public right of way, I bet it's useful to protect kids doncha know. And I'm pretty sure I've put forth the argument in the past that government has grabbed far too much power, prior than 5 years ago too btw, but some 'conservatives' have put forth the argument that the threat we face now is so grave that some Constitutional protections are, shall we say, old fashioned and shouldn't be wrapped up in some sort of "suicide pact;" I can't recall your stance on some of those issues at the moment. My general position is to back the rights of the citizen over the right of a big government to so overreach in its spying as to deny us our Constitutional rights. I believe many search and seizure rights are being trampled by government action and this blanket very massive spying on all citizens. Nobody in their right mind can envision our Founders EVER APPROVING OF THIS TRAMPLING OF OUR RIGHTS IMHO.. -Tyr

[aboutime]

This is how I see it, and what I follow as my guide with all of this.

<dl><dt>Benjamin Franklin (sometimes Thomas Jefferson) is often quoted (http://kevincraig.us/tempsec.htm#History) as saying:</dt></dl>
<center>
<tbody>

Those who would give up Essential Liberty
to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

</tbody>
</center>
What is the opposite of "LIBERTY?" The answer is: SLAVERY.

[fj1200]

My general position is to back the rights of the citizen over the right of a big government to so overreach in its spying as to deny us our Constitutional rights. I believe many search and seizure rights are being trampled by government action and this blanket very massive spying on all citizens. Nobody in their right mind can envision our Founders EVER APPROVING OF THIS TRAMPLING OF OUR RIGHTS IMHO.. -Tyr

I wish everybody believed such, especially all of the conservatives out there.

[Arbo]

I wish everybody believed such, especially all of the conservatives out there.

Only when it suits their other beliefs…