Why have people come to believe health care is a "right" when it actually isn't?

[Little-Acorn]

Health care insurance started going downhill in this country during the Great Depression and World War II, despite the numerous technical advances that were made during that period.

Then-President FDR clamped huge restrictions onto many parts of the economy during the Depression (resulting in that depression stretching out further than any ever had in world history), and they became even worse during WWII. One of them was wage and price controls, which became onerous as many able-bodied men joined the armed services to fight in the war.

Attracting talented people to fulfill the jobs they left was tough enough with so many good men joining up, and the govt's wage controls made the situation worse when employers found they couldn't offer higher wages to get people to hire on. Whether this was justifiable, not to say effective, by the war emergency is debatable.

Employers screamed bloody murder as their businesses approached collapse due to unfilled jobs, and while government refused to lift its wage and price controls, they announced the employers could offer benefits in lieu of pay to attract workers. One benefit was a tax exemption for employer-provided health insurance.

This helped somewhat, but with an employer only able to offer a few insurance plans, it locked employees into fairly uncompetetive market unless he changed jobs. And FDR's relatively new policy of "tax withholding" was extended to the employee part of the payments for insurance, further insulating the employee fro the gut-check of having to write weekly or monthly checks to the insurance company.

Employers offered "Cadillac" plans in their efforts to attract workers, and the employees seldom saw the actual cost of those expensive plans, which often paid for routine medications and office visits formerly not covered by real insurance plans. That, plus the lack of competition most insurance companies found themselves facing, removed a lot of their impetus to pare costs. And employees became used to health care which "seemed free", and started thinking of it as something akin to a "right", since it (sort of) appeared to cost nothing.

When the war ended, government did NOT remove the tax exemption for employer-provided health insurance even though the circumstances that made it desirable were now gone. And so health insurance has existed in a strange nether world ever since for most people, with employees of a company locked into the few (or one) insurance plan offered by that company with little likelihood they will ever leave it. At the same time it appeared to cost little or nothing, with even routine services (far beyond the major-event coverage real insurance is for) included and seeming "complimentary".

Fast forward to the 21st century. Now we have self-serving politicians screaming from the rooftops that health care is somehow a "right", though it comes nowhere close to resembling a right to liberty, right to speech, right to self-defense etc. - all of which are based on the fundamental right to be left alone and to associate only voluntarily with others. And most people, used to generations of "free" health care that was caused by that very government long ago, are actually believing it, despite the clear unworkability of the idea, the unnecessary expense and clumsiness of one-size-fits-all (or even three-sizes-fit-all) policies administered from thousand of miles away in Washington.

The cockeyed notion that we somehow have a "right" to have a broken arm set or an infection cleaned and treated by others, came (as so many cockeyed ideas do) from government intrusion into private matters in the first place.

We should be thankful that the government didn't offer tax breaks for food purchased by one's employer. Or by now, the same deluded people would be screaming that they had a "right" to food (some actually believe this one too, after generations of food stamps). Ditto for rent, phone service, etc., all of which have been tainted at one time or another by government programs to make them nearly "free".

Weaning Americans off these destructive addictions to "free" necessities and "rights" that aren't rights and never were, will be painful, as breaking an addiction always is. But it is no less necessary, if we are to survive as sovereign citizens in a free society.

[Arbo]

Because people are dumb (they don't understand the Constitution) and lazy (if it's a 'right' they don't have to work for it).

[Drummond]

The UK was the first place in the world to introduce a National Health Service .. it's existed, here, ever since the late 1940's. Generations have grown up, here, conditioned into taking its service for granted.

I think you'd be very hard pressed indeed to find any Brit who'd dream of arguing that healthcare wasn't a 'right'.

Of course, we've seen where that has led. Ignoring the fact of bad timing, and our Socialists introducing it when we were still trying to recover from World War II (!!!) ... it at first came close to bankrupting us.

But, the UK persevered with it. Today, it lurches from one scandal to another, and few would say that the NHS worked particularly well. But this still doesn't stop people from being supportive of it.

Such is Socialist conditioning. Acceptance of the 'right' to expect State healthcare to be 'on tap' has done much to consolidate a dependency culture .. what Socialists most want to see. So, they keep getting elected. So, they find more and more ways and excuses to intrude in peoples' lives. People here believe they are free. But they're mistaken. They're the willing victims of social manipulation.

Freedom means taking responsibility, not waiting forever for handouts.

[Trigg]

The UK was the first place in the world to introduce a National Health Service .. it's existed, here, ever since the late 1940's. Generations have grown up, here, conditioned into taking its service for granted.

I think you'd be very hard pressed indeed to find any Brit who'd dream of arguing that healthcare wasn't a 'right'.

Of course, we've seen where that has led. Ignoring the fact of bad timing, and our Socialists introducing it when we were still trying to recover from World War II (!!!) ... it at first came close to bankrupting us.

But, the UK persevered with it. Today, it lurches from one scandal to another, and few would say that the NHS worked particularly well. But this still doesn't stop people from being supportive of it.

Such is Socialist conditioning. Acceptance of the 'right' to expect State healthcare to be 'on tap' has done much to consolidate a dependency culture .. what Socialists most want to see. So, they keep getting elected. So, they find more and more ways and excuses to intrude in peoples' lives. People here believe they are free. But they're mistaken. They're the willing victims of social manipulation.

Freedom means taking responsibility, not waiting forever for handouts.


It doesn't even take generations to fall into the "we deserve it crowd". My sister moved to Finland only 20 years ago and firmly thinks "free" heath care is the way to go. Even when we discuss how may taxes go into paying for said "free" health care and the fact that if she wants to see a REAL physician she pays for SECONDARY health coverage.

She talks about going to the ER when her kids have a cold, after all why shouldn't she......it's free. Of course this only bogs down the ER's and makes people who really need to be seen wait.

They have a severe physician shortage because, really, who wants to go to school for 6 to 10 yrs and come out making as much as someone who went to school for 4 or less??????? The US is looking at a shortage right now.

[Drummond]

It doesn't even take generations to fall into the "we deserve it crowd". My sister moved to Finland only 20 years ago and firmly thinks "free" heath care is the way to go. Even when we discuss how may taxes go into paying for said "free" health care and the fact that if she wants to see a REAL physician she pays for SECONDARY health coverage.

She talks about going to the ER when her kids have a cold, after all why shouldn't she......it's free. Of course this only bogs down the ER's and makes people who really need to be seen wait.

They have a severe physician shortage because, really, who wants to go to school for 6 to 10 yrs and come out making as much as someone who went to school for 4 or less??????? The US is looking at a shortage right now.

Of course, there's no such thing as 'free' healthcare. There are systems where the charges are obvious, then there are the Socialist ones where the truth of healthcare cost is far more hidden.

Here, we too have secondary systems .. such as BUPA. Although ... back in the 1970's, one Socialist Government tried to get all competitors to the NHS banned outright. Happily, they failed. Nonetheless, the NHS is by far the more dominant system.

And beware of the massive drain any system remotely reminiscent of our NHS is bound to be. Here, on a website that's naturally painting an UPBEAT impression of our NHS, we see ...

http://www.jobs.nhs.uk/about_nhs.html


The National Health Service (NHS) is one of the largest employers in the world, and is the biggest in Europe, with over 1.3 million staff.

For the NHS a typical day includes:


over 835,000 people visiting their GP practice or practice nurse
almost 50,000 people visiting accident and emergency departments
49,000 outpatient consultations
94,000 people admitted to hospital as an emergency admission
36,000 people in hospital for planned treatment.

That's just to offer coverage for a population slightly bigger than 60 million people (the majority of whom won't need their service at any one time). ONE OF THE LARGEST EMPLOYERS IN THE WORLD ... now, I ask you ... how much worse would such a system be, in being a drain on resources, manpower, sheer cost, if it had to cover THREE HUNDRED million people ??

That, I suggest, is one MASSIVE social millstone to cope with !!

[Missileman]

Because people are dumb (they don't understand the Constitution) and lazy (if it's a 'right' they don't have to work for it).

I don't have a problem with healthcare being deemed a right. That doesn't mean however that the government is obligated to provide it. I have the right to bear arms...the government isn't obligated to provide me a rifle.

[Larrymc]

Health care insurance started going downhill in this country during the Great Depression and World War II, despite the numerous technical advances that were made during that period.

Then-President FDR clamped huge restrictions onto many parts of the economy during the Depression (resulting in that depression stretching out further than any ever had in world history), and they became even worse during WWII. One of them was wage and price controls, which became onerous as many able-bodied men joined the armed services to fight in the war.

Attracting talented people to fulfill the jobs they left was tough enough with so many good men joining up, and the govt's wage controls made the situation worse when employers found they couldn't offer higher wages to get people to hire on. Whether this was justifiable, not to say effective, by the war emergency is debatable.

Employers screamed bloody murder as their businesses approached collapse due to unfilled jobs, and while government refused to lift its wage and price controls, they announced the employers could offer benefits in lieu of pay to attract workers. One benefit was a tax exemption for employer-provided health insurance.

This helped somewhat, but with an employer only able to offer a few insurance plans, it locked employees into fairly uncompetetive market unless he changed jobs. And FDR's relatively new policy of "tax withholding" was extended to the employee part of the payments for insurance, further insulating the employee fro the gut-check of having to write weekly or monthly checks to the insurance company.

Employers offered "Cadillac" plans in their efforts to attract workers, and the employees seldom saw the actual cost of those expensive plans, which often paid for routine medications and office visits formerly not covered by real insurance plans. That, plus the lack of competition most insurance companies found themselves facing, removed a lot of their impetus to pare costs. And employees became used to health care which "seemed free", and started thinking of it as something akin to a "right", since it (sort of) appeared to cost nothing.

When the war ended, government did NOT remove the tax exemption for employer-provided health insurance even though the circumstances that made it desirable were now gone. And so health insurance has existed in a strange nether world ever since for most people, with employees of a company locked into the few (or one) insurance plan offered by that company with little likelihood they will ever leave it. At the same time it appeared to cost little or nothing, with even routine services (far beyond the major-event coverage real insurance is for) included and seeming "complimentary".

Fast forward to the 21st century. Now we have self-serving politicians screaming from the rooftops that health care is somehow a "right", though it comes nowhere close to resembling a right to liberty, right to speech, right to self-defense etc. - all of which are based on the fundamental right to be left alone and to associate only voluntarily with others. And most people, used to generations of "free" health care that was caused by that very government long ago, are actually believing it, despite the clear unworkability of the idea, the unnecessary expense and clumsiness of one-size-fits-all (or even three-sizes-fit-all) policies administered from thousand of miles away in Washington.

The cockeyed notion that we somehow have a "right" to have a broken arm set or an infection cleaned and treated by others, came (as so many cockeyed ideas do) from government intrusion into private matters in the first place.

We should be thankful that the government didn't offer tax breaks for food purchased by one's employer. Or by now, the same deluded people would be screaming that they had a "right" to food (some actually believe this one too, after generations of food stamps). Ditto for rent, phone service, etc., all of which have been tainted at one time or another by government programs to make them nearly "free".

Weaning Americans off these destructive addictions to "free" necessities and "rights" that aren't rights and never were, will be painful, as breaking an addiction always is. But it is no less necessary, if we are to survive as sovereign citizens in a free society."Because Obama Said"

[Arbo]

I don't have a problem with healthcare being deemed a right. That doesn't mean however that the government is obligated to provide it. I have the right to bear arms...the government isn't obligated to provide me a rifle.

I understand what you are saying, but the right as in to bear arms is quite different from 'rights' as many see them now. Now the term seems to mean 'i am owed this'. As an example, they see a 'right' to food as the ability to take from the farmer because it is owed to them.

[Missileman]

I understand what you are saying, but the right as in to bear arms is quite different from 'rights' as many see them now. Now the term seems to mean 'i am owed this'. As an example, they see a 'right' to food as the ability to take from the farmer because it is owed to them.

I can't be held responsible for their misuse of the term. :salute:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The UK was the first place in the world to introduce a National Health Service .. it's existed, here, ever since the late 1940's. Generations have grown up, here, conditioned into taking its service for granted.

I think you'd be very hard pressed indeed to find any Brit who'd dream of arguing that healthcare wasn't a 'right'.

Of course, we've seen where that has led. Ignoring the fact of bad timing, and our Socialists introducing it when we were still trying to recover from World War II (!!!) ... it at first came close to bankrupting us.

But, the UK persevered with it. Today, it lurches from one scandal to another, and few would say that the NHS worked particularly well. But this still doesn't stop people from being supportive of it.

Such is Socialist conditioning. Acceptance of the 'right' to expect State healthcare to be 'on tap' has done much to consolidate a dependency culture .. what Socialists most want to see. So, they keep getting elected. So, they find more and more ways and excuses to intrude in peoples' lives. People here believe they are free. But they're mistaken. They're the willing victims of social manipulation.

Freedom means taking responsibility, not waiting forever for handouts. Well stated. :clap::beer::clap: Socialism/liberalism destroys nations. We see its advance here and we now see the utter disaster it has birthed. We see it with Obama and his policies. I hate to think about how much more destruction that lying traitorous bastard will do in the next few years. I know he will seek to do more than he previously has. That should scare the living hell out of all Americans but about 49% have been bought off by being on the government tit. That leaves about 51% most of which haven't a damn clue what Obama truly is and how he hates this nation. So his truly knowledgeable dedicated opposition is likely only about 15 to 20 % . With that number being so low we will get the destruction he plans on delivering. Perhaps it is simply justice being delivered for well over a 60 million children having been murdered by abortions since SCOTUS legalized such murder... ..... Food for thought right there IMHO.--Tyr

[Drummond]

Well stated. :clap::beer::clap: Socialism/liberalism destroys nations. We see its advance here and we now see the utter disaster it has birthed. We see it with Obama and his policies. I hate to think about how much more destruction that lying traitorous bastard will do in the next few years. I know he will seek to do more than he previously has. That should scare the living hell out of all Americans but about 49% have been bought off by being on the government tit. That leaves about 51% most of which haven't a damn clue what Obama truly is and how he hates this nation. So his truly knowledgeable dedicated opposition is likely only about 15 to 20 % . With that number being so low we will get the destruction he plans on delivering. Perhaps it is simply justice being delivered for well over a 60 million children having been murdered by abortions since SCOTUS legalized such murder... ..... Food for thought right there IMHO.--Tyr:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[red states rule]

The give me mentality started with FDR and has continued to increase since then. The #1 goal of liberals is too have as many as people as possible hooked on a government program

Libs believe owning a house is a right and they now want to extend that to healthcare ins

Once those government subsides start being handed out libs know it will be damn near impossible to take them back. Added to that you have a growing number of people who pay ZERO income taxes while having 1% of the taxpayers paying 40% of the federal taxes collected. We have a smaller number of people paying the bills while the nation continues to add to our Mt Everest sized debt

Libs love it that have the country is getting some sort of handout and al they see are more and more loyal Dem voters

[CSM]

Keep one thing in mind. Governing concepts, regardless of ideology, only stand as long as the people under its rule allow it to work. I believe that to be true for feudalism, democracy, socialism, fascism or any other form of government. A people only change their form of government when the perceived oppression becomes so great that a nucleus of the strong use force to change it. That force may or may not be physical violence. I submit that the US citizen is the single reason we are in the position we are in. We, the citizens of this country are allowing this "transformation" to take place because most of us are apathetic, lazy and self centered. Read about the rise and fall of the Roman empire; there are many, many allegories with the path the US is currently following.

[red states rule]

Keep one thing in mind. Governing concepts, regardless of ideology, only stand as long as the people under its rule allow it to work. I believe that to be true for feudalism, democracy, socialism, fascism or any other form of government. A people only change their form of government when the perceived oppression becomes so great that a nucleus of the strong use force to change it. That force may or may not be physical violence. I submit that the US citizen is the single reason we are in the position we are in. We, the citizens of this country are allowing this "transformation" to take place because most of us are apathetic, lazy and self centered. Read about the rise and fall of the Roman empire; there are many, many allegories with the path the US is currently following.

also adding to the problem is that millions of conservatives had a temper tantrum and stayed home on election day 2012 - thus giving all of us 4 more years of hope and change

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The give me mentality started with FDR and has continued to increase since then. The #1 goal of liberals is too have as many as people as possible hooked on a government program

Libs believe owning a house is a right and they now want to extend that to healthcare ins

Once those government subsides start being handed out libs know it will be damn near impossible to take them back. Added to that you have a growing number of people who pay ZERO income taxes while having 1% of the taxpayers paying 40% of the federal taxes collected. We have a smaller number of people paying the bills while the nation continues to add to our Mt Everest sized debt

Libs love it that have the country is getting some sort of handout and al they see are more and more loyal Dem voters


Libs believe owning a house is a right and they now want to extend that to healthcare ins So they destroyed the economy , destroyed the housing market and envision to be able to someday put a hundred million people here into government subsidized housing. I wonder how many millions they have in that program now? That's right currently its just a government plantation set up but they want it to be permanent, mandatory and extremely huge and when they get the amount of control they want by way of the healthcare whip(bamcrapcare) my guess is that they'll do it. Currently they are trying to build an ant colony to work for them.. see-- Globalists and their agenda for a better understanding. --Tyr

[red states rule]

So they destroyed the economy , destroyed the housing market and envision to be able to someday put a hundred million people here into government subsidized housing. I wonder how many millions they have in that program now? That's right currently its just a government plantation set up but they want it to be permanent, mandatory and extremely huge and when they get the amount of control they want by way of the healthcare whip(bamcrapcare) my guess is that they'll do it. Currently they are trying to build an ant colony to work for them.. see-- Globalists and their agenda for a better understanding. --Tyr

Libs destroyed the housing market. How the hell they can blame banks for fraud when these people were given money is beyond me

But I suspect libs planned this and now that Obamacare is a total clusterfu** they will now moan how the ONLY solution is a - shock - single payer system

Which is what they wanted in the first place

Again, the more people who are dependent on government the happier libs are

and the poorer full time workers like me will be as my taxes will go up

[Drummond]

Keep one thing in mind. Governing concepts, regardless of ideology, only stand as long as the people under its rule allow it to work. I believe that to be true for feudalism, democracy, socialism, fascism or any other form of government. A people only change their form of government when the perceived oppression becomes so great that a nucleus of the strong use force to change it. That force may or may not be physical violence. I submit that the US citizen is the single reason we are in the position we are in. We, the citizens of this country are allowing this "transformation" to take place because most of us are apathetic, lazy and self centered. Read about the rise and fall of the Roman empire; there are many, many allegories with the path the US is currently following.

This is well said.

You've left out one factor, though. It isn't just laziness, apathy, etc that's involved. Part of the danger is in the strength of the power of propaganda. People coming to believe that something deserves to become 'the norm' because of concerted efforts to propagandise that it should be ... this has its own persuasive power.

As I posted before ... in my country, healthcare IS seen as a 'right', because so much grounding has gone into creating the perception that it 'is'. Make no mistake - the spirit of self-reliance, of struggling and striving to achieve, factors that made the US a truly great country, this is under attack from your Leftie-In-Chief. If you're not careful, you as a country will sleepwalk into becoming a clone of the UK.

This is something which, I assure you, you do NOT want !!!

[red states rule]

http://conservativebyte.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/91506_600.jpg
This is well said.

You've left out one factor, though. It isn't just laziness, apathy, etc that's involved. Part of the danger is in the strength of the power of propaganda. People coming to believe that something deserves to become 'the norm' because concerted efforts to propagandise that it should be ... this has its own persuasive power.

As I posted before ... in my country, healthcare IS seen as a 'right', because so much grounding has gone into creating the perception that it 'is'. Make no mistake - the spirit of self-reliance, of struggling and striving to achieve, factors that made the US a truly great country, this is under attack from your Leftie-In-Chief. If you're not careful, you as a country will sleepwalk into becoming a clone of the UK.

This is something which, I assure you, you do NOT want !!!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Keep one thing in mind. Governing concepts, regardless of ideology, only stand as long as the people under its rule allow it to work. I believe that to be true for feudalism, democracy, socialism, fascism or any other form of government. A people only change their form of government when the perceived oppression becomes so great that a nucleus of the strong use force to change it. That force may or may not be physical violence. I submit that the US citizen is the single reason we are in the position we are in. We, the citizens of this country are allowing this "transformation" to take place because most of us are apathetic, lazy and self centered. Read about the rise and fall of the Roman empire; there are many, many allegories with the path the US is currently following. In 1972 my term paper was titled "America will fall as did the Roman Empire." The prime factor being corruption from within for that is exactly what destroyed Rome and its deadly war machine. The similarities are striking between ancient Rome and modern America... as is the fall from power we see taking place now because of the massive corruption from within(Obama and CO.)>> BY THE WAY SCORED A 100 ON THAT TERM PAPER FROM A TEACHER THAT WAS AS CRITICAL AND HARD AS NAILS. Yes, she was an excellent teacher that coaxed and forced her students to actually learn! Something I've always appreciated and admired.. -Tyr

[CSM]

This is well said.

You've left out one factor, though. It isn't just laziness, apathy, etc that's involved. Part of the danger is in the strength of the power of propaganda. People coming to believe that something deserves to become 'the norm' because of concerted efforts to propagandise that it should be ... this has its own persuasive power.

As I posted before ... in my country, healthcare IS seen as a 'right', because so much grounding has gone into creating the perception that it 'is'. Make no mistake - the spirit of self-reliance, of struggling and striving to achieve, factors that made the US a truly great country, this is under attack from your Leftie-In-Chief. If you're not careful, you as a country will sleepwalk into becoming a clone of the UK.

This is something which, I assure you, you do NOT want !!!

Propaganda can be a powerful method for setting the conditions ... that is true. That was the point I was trying to make in the "MMA" thread. I make a point to be cognizant of the adjectives used in any article or report, especially those presented by supposed journalists associated with the media. I believe that the average US resident doesn't even realize when they are being preconditioned. Brainwashing takes many forms and it has been practiced in this country for some time now; so much so that most don't even realize they have succumbed. I would point out too, that it is not just the MSM. Both political parties and our elected officials have mastered the use of propaganda. It is how they stay in power.

[Arbo]

Keep one thing in mind. Governing concepts, regardless of ideology, only stand as long as the people under its rule allow it to work. I believe that to be true for feudalism, democracy, socialism, fascism or any other form of government. A people only change their form of government when the perceived oppression becomes so great that a nucleus of the strong use force to change it. That force may or may not be physical violence. I submit that the US citizen is the single reason we are in the position we are in. We, the citizens of this country are allowing this "transformation" to take place because most of us are apathetic, lazy and self centered. Read about the rise and fall of the Roman empire; there are many, many allegories with the path the US is currently following.

This is correct. Of course, most here will deny they are part of the problem, but if they are not out in the community and actively working to change things, they are indeed part of the problem. As throwing a fit on an internet forum doesn't bring forth change. And most that throw a fit on the internet are generally not active in the real world in terms of addressing the problems and working to fix them.

[red states rule]

What is laughable is that Dems do not see Obamacare an as issue in the upcoming elections. I do hope Dems do what Debbie Wasserman Schultz says they will do

Run on Obamacare. Debbie - please do just that

Enjoy Debbie's delusions folks (go to the 1:21)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThJjryHYnc