Illegal immigration: A modest proposal

[GW in Ohio]

It's readily apparent that the illegal immigration issue really gets our right-wing friends riled up. The following is my best solution to the situation. I'd like to hear your reactions.


Shut off the flow of illegal immigration. Build a fence along our southern border. Assign the National Guard to patrol the border and hire additional border patrol agents.
For all illegals currently in this country, offer them the choice of a path to citizenship, or leave the country.
If they accept the path to citizenship, they must come out of the shadows and apply for citizenship. If they apply, they get papers and a Social Security card to show to any employer.
Those who don't want to become citizens have 30 days to leave the country. If they're found here after the 30 days, they go to jail. Then they get deported.
Increase the penalties for employers who hire workers without documentation.
Congress should approve the necessary funding for this plan. Additional INS agents will be needed to process the new applications for citizenship. Additional law enforcement agents will be needed to capture and incarcerate individuals in this country illegally.


Comments?

[Pale Rider]

If you're found to have entered this country illegaly, you get deported. No ifs, ands or buts.

No more anchor babies.

Secure the border, fence, National Guard - ARMED AND ORDERED TO SHOOT, high tech surveillance.

$100,000 fine for a business per illegal employed. Second offense, you go to jail.

Deport all illegals in jail and prison system.

If we did these things, the invasion from mexico would grind to such a screeching halt, it would be heard around the world. NO MORE SNEAKING INTO AMERICA!!! In all actuality, the human tidal wave would probably REVERSE! We'd see a mass exodus as millions went home.

[GW in Ohio]

If you're found to have entered this country illegaly, you get deported. No ifs, ands or buts.

No more anchor babies.

Secure the border, fence, National Guard - ARMED AND ORDERED TO SHOOT, high tech surveillance.

$100,000 fine for a business per illegal employed. Second offense, you go to jail.

Deport all illegals in jail and prison system.

Your hardass approach will never get implemented. It's punitive and mean-spirited and would poison relations between the US and Mexico.

[Pale Rider]

Your hardass approach will never get implemented. It's punitive and mean-spirited and would poison relations between the US and Mexico.

No... it probably won't get implemented, but that's not to say that that isn't EXACTLY what the MAJORITY of Americans want.

There is NOTHING "mean spirited" about it. That's just you and your liberal name calling again because I think differently than you do. I'm talking about upholding American LAWS... know what I mean? Or don't you believe in upholding the law?

And WHO - IN - THE - HELL - GIVES - A -RATS - ASS - ABOUT - WHAT - MEXICO - THINKS - OF - US???! YOU THINK THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT WHAT WE THINK OF THEM???!!!

GET FUCKING REAL.

[GW in Ohio]

No... it probably won't get implemented, but that's not to say that that isn't EXACTLY what the MAJORITY of Americans want.

There is NOTHING "mean spirited" about it. That's just you and your liberal name calling again because I think differently than you do. I'm talking about upholding American LAWS... know what I mean? Or don't you believe in upholding the law?

And WHO - IN - THE - HELL - GIVES - A -RATS - ASS - ABOUT - WHAT - MEXICO - THINKS - OF - US???! YOU THINK THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT WHAT WE THINK OF THEM???!!!

GET FUCKING REAL.

We've had almost 7 years of the George Bush approach to foreign policy, as exemplified in your post. The Bush school of foreign policy runs like this:

Who the fuck cares what other countries think of us? We're the most powerful nation on earth. We do as we see fit and fuck the rest of 'em. We don't need friends and we don't need to cooperate with other countries (except our good friends, the Brits).

We don't need other countries to love us, as long as they fear us.

As demonstrated by the '06 elections and the public opinion polls, Americans have rejected the Bush approach to foreign policy by a wide margin. We'll just have to endure another 16 months or so of it and then we can take the following approach to the Bush foreign policy:

:pee:

[Pale Rider]

We've had almost 7 years of the George Bush approach to foreign policy, as exemplified in your post. The Bush school of foreign policy runs like this:

Who the fuck cares what other countries think of us? We're the most powerful nation on earth. We do as we see fit and fuck the rest of 'em. We don't need friends and we don't need to cooperate with other countries (except our good friends, the Brits).

We don't need other countries to love us, as long as they fear us.

As demonstrated by the '06 elections and the public opinion polls, Americans have rejected the Bush approach to foreign policy by a wide margin. We'll just have to endure another 16 months or so of it and then we can take the following approach to the Bush foreign policy:

:pee:

Well now are we talking about bush or immigration? I know you liberals just froth at the mouth at every chance you get to bash bush, but lets stay on topic, or I'm done here.

So to recap what "I SAID," since you didn't really seem to GET IT, it is MEXICO that doesn't GIVE A SHIT WHAT WE THINK.... OK? You got that now? "WE" have been catering to their every whimper. "THEY" have been running rough shod over us like they RUN this country, and at times I think they do, because bush acts like they've got him in their back pocket.

Now go ahead and put your little pissing squirrel emoticon on that.

[gabosaurus]

You can't argue with idiots like Pale, because you know they are going to be hard line and mean spirited. If you ever visited a Mexican neighborhood, you would see how decent and hard working most of them are.

The fence will not work. You would just be creating a Berlin Wall atmosphere. And you know how well that worked.

My idea has always been a bit like GW's:

Beef up the border patrol (WARNING! will increase your taxes!) and secure the border.

Give all illegal aliens in the country 60 days to choose their country. Note that U.S. citizenship includes a requirement of English proficiency.

Stiff fines for employers who hire illegal aliens. Second offense means losing their business.

------------------

Increasing the pay and benefits for border patrol agents is a MUST. If you are earning $30,000 a year, and a drug or immigrant smuggler offers you a one-time payment of $30,000 to let his cargo across, what are you going to choose?

[Pale Rider]

You can't argue with idiots like Pale,

Oh look... it's miss cleft palate, here to rescue her brother liberal from the big, bad, conservative, Pale Rider... :laugh:


If you ever visited a Mexican neighborhood, you would see how decent and hard working most of them are.
Don't know what country you were in, but every time I go to mexico, I see rampant drinking, drugs, corruption and crime, and I was just down there about nine months ago.

[GW in Ohio]

Oh look... it's miss cleft palate, here to rescue her brother liberal from the big, bad, conservative, Pale Rider... :laugh:


Don't know what country you were in, but every time I go to mexico, I see rampant drinking, drugs, corruption and crime, and I was just down there about nine months ago.

Pale.....dude.....

You need to stop going to Tijuana, and stop frequenting those whorehouses in the border towns.

Get out among the real Mexican people and stay away from the ones who want to sell their sister to you.

[GW in Ohio]

You can't argue with idiots like Pale, because you know they are going to be hard line and mean spirited. If you ever visited a Mexican neighborhood, you would see how decent and hard working most of them are.

The fence will not work. You would just be creating a Berlin Wall atmosphere. And you know how well that worked.

My idea has always been a bit like GW's:

Beef up the border patrol (WARNING! will increase your taxes!) and secure the border.

Give all illegal aliens in the country 60 days to choose their country. Note that U.S. citizenship includes a requirement of English proficiency.

Stiff fines for employers who hire illegal aliens. Second offense means losing their business.

------------------

Increasing the pay and benefits for border patrol agents is a MUST. If you are earning $30,000 a year, and a drug or immigrant smuggler offers you a one-time payment of $30,000 to let his cargo across, what are you going to choose?


gabo: I take issue with your Berlin Wall analogy. The Berlin Wall was built to keep people in...it was a prison wall. A fence along our southern border will serve notice that if you want to come in here, you do it legally.

[gabosaurus]

I respectfully disagree. A wall is a wall. Like the sheriff in South Texas said "if you build a six-foot tall wall, they are going to find seven-foot ladders."
What is going to happen is that people are going to attempt to scale the wall and get killed. Every time it happens, the world will scorn and folks like Pale will end up with new stains on their pants.

[GW in Ohio]

Well now are we talking about bush or immigration? I know you liberals just froth at the mouth at every chance you get to bash bush, but lets stay on topic, or I'm done here.

So to recap what "I SAID," since you didn't really seem to GET IT, it is MEXICO that doesn't GIVE A SHIT WHAT WE THINK.... OK? You got that now? "WE" have been catering to their every whimper. "THEY" have been running rough shod over us like they RUN this country, and at times I think they do, because bush acts like they've got him in their back pocket.

Now go ahead and put your little pissing squirrel emoticon on that.

You brought in Bush and foreign policy with the comment, "Who the fuck cares what Mexico thinks of us?"

[Trigg]

The fence will not work. You would just be creating a Berlin Wall atmosphere. And you know how well that worked.

My idea has always been a bit like GW's:

Beef up the border patrol (WARNING! will increase your taxes!) and secure the border.

Give all illegal aliens in the country 60 days to choose their country. Note that U.S. citizenship includes a requirement of English proficiency.

Stiff fines for employers who hire illegal aliens. Second offense means losing their business.

------------------




1. A fence is a great idea. Instead of being able to run across the border with no barrior they will have to climb, giving time to the border patrol to catch them. It steams the flow into a trickle.

2. Agree, beef up border patrol

3. The problem with illegals in this country is the ILLEGAL part, something liberals don't seem to understand. Now, sadly I think the gov will pass an amnesty, as much as I'd love to deport them all. They at least need a HEAVY fine and need to learn English. ANYONE who has broken the law should be kicked out period.

4. Agree with the stiff fines.

Once again I feel the need to point out that illegal alien doesn't always point only to Mexicans. An article last week was about Mexico deporting Hondurans trying to sneak across their country to make it into ours. We have no idea who those illegals are, at this point ANEONE could sneak in and we would be none the wiser.

[Rahul]

It's readily apparent that the illegal immigration issue really gets our right-wing friends riled up. The following is my best solution to the situation. I'd like to hear your reactions.

I'm not right wing, but here are mine. ;)


Shut off the flow of illegal immigration. Build a fence along our southern border. Assign the National Guard to patrol the border and hire additional border patrol agents.

Agree.



For all illegals currently in this country, offer them the choice of a path to citizenship, or leave the country.

I'm not so sure I agree fully with this one . . . This could in fact spur on more people to enter the US illegally, just because they can see the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, so to speak (if entering the US illegally can be compared to a rainbow).

Personally, I believe the best way is to offer people legally in the US a path to citizenship, not all illegals . . .



If they accept the path to citizenship, they must come out of the shadows and apply for citizenship. If they apply, they get papers and a Social Security card to show to any employer.

Again, if someone is in the US illegally, I dont think they should automatically be entitled to a social security card, for instance. IMO, it would set a bad example.



Those who don't want to become citizens have 30 days to leave the country. If they're found here after the 30 days, they go to jail. Then they get deported.

In principle, it's a workable idea - in practice, there wouldn't be a need for such laws. I'd be willing to bet most, if not all, illegals, given the choice to become citizens would take it instead of the 30 day option.



Increase the penalties for employers who hire workers without documentation.

Spot on!



Congress should approve the necessary funding for this plan. Additional INS agents will be needed to process the new applications for citizenship. Additional law enforcement agents will be needed to capture and incarcerate individuals in this country illegally.


Got no problem with any of that either. :)


Comments?

:beer:

[Pale Rider]

Pale.....dude.....

You need to stop going to Tijuana, and stop frequenting those whorehouses in the border towns.

Get out among the real Mexican people and stay away from the ones who want to sell their sister to you.

I ride with a motorcycle gang called the "Vagos." (http://www.vagosworld.com) Every year they do a different ride to mexico. Last year we made a loop down through Chihuahua and Monterrey. We went through a LOT of mexico. No T.J. GW... sorry. We went through about as much "real" mexico as you'd ever want to see.

[Pale Rider]

You brought in Bush and foreign policy with the comment, "Who the fuck cares what Mexico thinks of us?"

I most certainly did not. My point, that I've made TWICE now, was "MEXICO'S" foreign policy. NOT ours. Why do I have to keep repeating that? Is that something you just don't understand?

[nevadamedic]

:popcorn:

[gabosaurus]

We can grant amnesty to all 12 million illegal aliens currently in the US, on the condition that they move to areas that are currently deprived of diversity. We will start with the Dakotas, Montana, various areas of the Midwest and Northern Nevada. They can open a new headquarters of MS 13 in Pale's neighborhood.

[Dilloduck]

We can grant amnesty to all 12 million illegal aliens currently in the US, on the condition that they move to areas that are currently deprived of diversity. We will start with the Dakotas, Montana, various areas of the Midwest and Northern Nevada. They can open a new headquarters of MS 13 in Pale's neighborhood.

Why can't they just stay at your cousins wedding--permanently ?

[Pale Rider]

We can grant amnesty to all 12 million illegal aliens currently in the US, on the condition that they move to areas that are currently deprived of diversity. We will start with the Dakotas, Montana, various areas of the Midwest and Northern Nevada. They can open a new headquarters of MS 13 in Pale's neighborhood.

Or after we deport them all, you can move down to mexico and be mother maid to them all, pay for all their expenses, and clean up after them... since you seem to want to do it here.

[Dilloduck]

Or after we deport them all, you can move down to mexico and be mother maid to them all, pay for all their expenses, and clean up after them... since you seem to want to do it here.

We're getting to see some classic liberal "thinking" here. Gab wants to legalize all illegals as long as they dont live where she is (except they really are nice people and make great Mexican food --Odd concept :laugh2:) and Rahul really cares about polar bears since they're thousands of miles away from him and no one can really expect him to actually DO anything about them.

[stephanie]

We're getting to see some classic liberal "thinking" here. Gab wants to legalize all illegals as long as they dont live where she is (except they really are nice people and make great Mexican food --Odd concept :laugh2:) and Rahul really cares about polar bears since they're thousands of miles away from him and no one can really expect him to actually DO anything about them.

:laugh2:

[GW in Ohio]

I ride with a motorcycle gang called the "Vagos." (http://www.vagosworld.com) Every year they do a different ride to mexico. Last year we made a loop down through Chihuahua and Monterrey. We went through a LOT of mexico. No T.J. GW... sorry. We went through about as much "real" mexico as you'd ever want to see.

Well, that's one thing I like about ya....

[Gunny]

It's readily apparent that the illegal immigration issue really gets our right-wing friends riled up. The following is my best solution to the situation. I'd like to hear your reactions.


Shut off the flow of illegal immigration. Build a fence along our southern border. Assign the National Guard to patrol the border and hire additional border patrol agents.
For all illegals currently in this country, offer them the choice of a path to citizenship, or leave the country.
If they accept the path to citizenship, they must come out of the shadows and apply for citizenship. If they apply, they get papers and a Social Security card to show to any employer.
Those who don't want to become citizens have 30 days to leave the country. If they're found here after the 30 days, they go to jail. Then they get deported.
Increase the penalties for employers who hire workers without documentation.
Congress should approve the necessary funding for this plan. Additional INS agents will be needed to process the new applications for citizenship. Additional law enforcement agents will be needed to capture and incarcerate individuals in this country illegally.


Comments?

no amnesty for criminals.

[nevadamedic]

We can grant amnesty to all 12 million illegal aliens currently in the US, on the condition that they move to areas that are currently deprived of diversity. We will start with the Dakotas, Montana, various areas of the Midwest and Northern Nevada. They can open a new headquarters of MS 13 in Pale's neighborhood.

They are already flocking to Northern Nevada :(

[Rahul]

and Rahul really cares about polar bears since they're thousands of miles away from him and no one can really expect him to actually DO anything about them.

That is not true. I care about the bears and do what I can to save them.

One of the most important things is to ensure fuel efficiency in your car. There arre many other things you can do as well.



http://www.livescience.com/environment/070131_GW_tips.html

How You Can Fight Global Warming

The scientific and political arguments surrounding global warming can make the whole topic seem beyond the grasp of the individual. How fast is the climate changing? Exactly what effects do humans have? Is the White House telling the truth about the problem? And what's being done?
Scientists have proposed some wacky solutions, from injecting sulfur into the air to shading Earth with a ring of satellites. But real, rational and large-scale near-term solutions can only come from new laws. Meanwhile, there are things you can do. How we treat Earth involves trillions of little decisions by billions of individuals that drive the industrial engines that ultimately spew the greenhouse gases into the air.
That in mind, LiveScience presents a range of ideas for saving energy and otherwise cutting down on your impact on the planet. Many of the ideas will also save you money.

Change light bulbs

Meanwhile, there are now highly efficient compact fluorescent light bulbs (CFLs) that last for years, use a quarter of the energy of regular bulbs and actually produce more light.
Look for the government's ENERGY STAR label, which means the bulb has been tested for quality and efficiency. While each ENERGY STAR qualified bulb will cost more initially-anywhere from $3 to $9 a piece-remember that there are two price tags: what you pay at the register and what you pay in energy costs to over the bulb's lifetime. So you may pay more up front, but you will actually save hundreds of dollars in your household budget over the long term because of their long life.
While CFLs were harder to find a few years ago, they're now widely available and much more affordable. You'll find them at major home improvement and hardware stores-even grocery and some convenience stores.
Here's the impact. If every household in the U.S. replaced a burned-out bulb with an energy-efficient, ENERGY STAR qualified compact fluorescent bulb, the cumulative effect is enormous. It would prevent more than 13 billion pounds of carbon dioxide from entering the atmosphere-which is like taking more than a million cars off the road for an entire year.
There are other, simple things with household lighting you can do to conserve: turn off unneeded lights, dim lights when you can and bring natural sunlight into your home when it is feasible.
But changing those old light bulbs and replacing them with ENERGY STAR qualified compact fluorescents that can last for a decade or more is by far the best thing you can do.

Drive differently, or drive a different vehicle

The sad truth is that your car emits as much carbon dioxide as your entire house. That's the bad news. The good news is that anything you can do to improve the fuel efficiency of your car will have an enormous impact on climate change. In fact, experts say that paying attention to fuel efficiency in your car may be the single biggest thing you can do to prevent global warming
Buying a fuel-efficient car (like a hybrid) is wonderful. In fact, replacing your gas-guzzling car with a fuel-efficient one is by far the best thing you can do, out of all your choices. But not all of us can do that-at least, not right now. Car makers haven't sold enough hybrids in the U.S. yet to make them as affordable as they should be. That will change, but not for a few years.
So, in the interim, there are things you can do with the car you drive now to conserve energy and be more fuel-efficient.
Drive less. Every year, Americans as a whole drive more miles than they did the year before. Stop this trend, and we drive a stake in that trend. Telecommuting and public transportation are great options-once a week saves a ton of carbon dioxide a year-but even piling multiple errands into one trip helps. If you can walk instead of drive, even better.
Get your car tuned up. Just a simple tune-up often improves fuel efficiency by half. If 100,000 of us went out and got a tune up, we save 124,000 tons of carbon dioxide.
Slow down, don't race your car's engine, and watch your idling. All of these save on gas (saving you money) and have a big impact on burning gasoline.
Horribly inefficient SUVs, minivans and pickup trucks now make up more than half of the cars on American roads. The real tragedy is that automakers could double the current average fuel efficiency of SUVs if they wanted to, which would save 70 tons of carbon dioxide per car. The technology exists. Unfortunately, consumer demand does not.

Control your temperature

The bad news is that half of your household energy costs go towards just two things-heating and cooling. And, ironically, air conditioners inject additional carbon into the air and exacerbate global warming.
The good news is that means you have lots of room for improvement, and even small changes make dramatic improvements in household fuel efficiency.
Older heating and cooling systems are a third less efficient than the new systems. So replacing the old with the new is a wonderful idea, but not very practical for most of us. Things you can do right now to make sure you're setting the right temperature in your house include:
Tune up your heating system. This one thing every couple of years can reduce your heating costs by 10 percent a year.
Clean vents, close unused vents, and change filters in the vents. Again, just these simple things will save you 10 percent.
Buy a programmable thermostat, which can regulate different temperatures at different times of the day. And if you have one, use it! Right now, three-quarters of people who have programmable thermostats don't use them at all.
Add two degrees to the AC thermostat in summer, and two degrees in winter. If everyone did this, the cumulative impact is significant.
Make sure windows and doors are sealed. Again, this will dramatically improve your household fuel efficiency.
Of course, if you can stand it, by far the best approach is to avoid air conditioners at all. Ceiling fans, instead of AC, can reduce your cooling costs by more than half.

Tame the refrigerator monster

Did you know that your friendly refrigerator has a voracious energy appetite? It is, by far, the single biggest consumer of electricity in the average household, responsible for 10-15 percent of the electricity you use each month.
Older refrigerators, as a rule, are far less efficient than the newest ones-as much as 50 percent more efficient in many cases. But buying a brand-new, energy-efficient refrigerator is almost certainly not in the cards for most of us. Fortunately, other things will help.
Don't set the thermostat too high. Even 1 degree will make a big difference.
If your refrigerator is near a heating vent, or always in the sun, then change the location, cover up the heat vent near it or drape the window.
Turn on your "energy saver" switch near the thermostat.
Clean the condenser coil. This one, very simple thing can improve the efficiency of your refrigerator by a third!
Get rid of your second refrigerator. If you don't need it, don't waste the energy.
Make sure the doors seal properly, and keep the cool in.

Twist some knobs

The other big users of energy in your household are your hot water heater, your washer and dryer, and your dishwasher. Each, in its own way, can be inefficient. Here are some things to try:
Either turn the hot water heater down a couple of degrees, or turn on the "energy conservation" setting.
Buy insulation for your hot water heater at a local store and insulate the pipes as well.
Install a timer on your water heater to turn off at night and just before you wake up in the morning.
When possible, wash a few dishes by hand. Over time, that will save a few loads in the dishwasher, conserving energy.
Don't pre-rinse dishes. Today's detergents are powerful enough to do the job.
Wait until you have a full load to run the dishwasher.
Wash clothes in warm water, not hot. The clothes will be just as clean, and you'll cut energy use by 50 percent.
Don't over-dry your clothes. That will save 15 percent.

Plant smartly

While it is true that planting more trees will help in the short term because they essentially soak up carbon, they also release carbon dioxide when they die. So it just postpones the problem. But there are other reasons to plant trees-as wind breaks to save energy, and as shade to lower cooling costs. And even the short-term help while we get our act together is a good thing.
As for plants, do everything you can in your yard and garden to create ways in which plants use less water. Choose hardier plants, plant things in groups that need more water and put in mulch to help keep moisture in. When you mow your grass, make sure you do it smartly-with sharp blades, and only when the grass needs cutting. Finally, make sure you water your lawn sparingly. All of these will conserve energy.

Invest in green energy

Imagine if we ran out of fossil fuels tomorrow, what would we do? Well, we'd get our electricity from renewable sources-solar panels, geothermal and wind power sources. Many utilities now give consumers the option to buy "green power."
Learn the truth about nuclear power and natural gas as viable "green" options. They aren't. Radioactive waste will be a problem for tens of thousands of years into the future, and natural gas kicks out almost as much carbon dioxide as coal and oil. Natural gas can help us make a transition, but it isn't the solution.

Finally, if you invest, invest in green stocks and renewable energy companies through socially responsible funds. They perform just as well (if not better) than all of the unfiltered funds.

Go organic

Even with our vast reservoir of scientific knowledge about farming, most American farmers still spray a billion pounds of pesticides to protect crops each year.
Now here's the kicker: when chemical pesticides are used to kill pests, they also kill off microorganisms that keep carbon contained in the soil. When the microorganisms are gone, the carbon is released into the atmosphere as carbon dioxide. And when those organisms are gone, the soil is no longer naturally fertile and chemical fertilizers become a necessity, not a luxury.
But besides going organic-thereby saving the carbon release from soil-there are other simple things you can do with food that will also make a difference:
Eat locally grown food. If the food doesn't have to travel far, there's less carbon dioxide from the trucks that ship it [Related Story].
Eat fruits and vegetables in season. Again, that saves the enormous transportation costs.

Plant your own vegetable garden. It's not as hard as you might think.
Buy recycled

This may sound simple, but it takes less energy to manufacture a recycled product than a brand new one. So if you and every other consumer buy recycled, you'll help create a market, and conserve energy along the way.
Because many manufacturers don't go out of their way to tout their recycled products, you should know that aluminum and tin cans, glass containers, and pulp cardboard have a fair amount of recycled content. So buy away!
Recycled is often considerably cheaper than non-recycled, so it's cost-effective as well as conservation-minded. For instance, recycled paper can be as much as a third cheaper than non-recycled paper.
Finally, before you buy, check to see if the product or its packaging can be recycled. The recyclable logo (three arrows forming a triangle) is fairly common now.

Be a minimalist

We know it's difficult, but in today's consumer economy, an easy way to conserve energy is to simply use-and buy-less. Every time you buy something, energy has gone into getting that product to you. So the less you buy, the more you save energy-wise. It's a simple equation.
This last item on our Top Ten list may, in fact, be the single biggest way to make a dent in the global warming problem. Again, we know it sounds obvious, but buying less things-some of which you just don't need-changes the energy equation across the board, on every single consumer product. If everyone used less, the impact would be large indeed.

So how about some specific things? Here are a few:

Buy in bulk. In short, bulk items use less packaging, which translates into less energy.

Buy one of something, not 21 of something. You don't need 21 pairs of shoes, if one pair works just as well.

Go through your closet. Donate or recycle what you really don't need, then make a pledge not to replace everything you just got rid of.

Buy quality products that will last longer. Over time, you'll obviously buy fewer products that way.

Be creative in what you use for work, play and leisure. You don't always have to buy new products for activities. Re-use in creative ways.




Have you done any of these things?

[Dilloduck]

That is not true. I care about the bears and do what I can to save them.

One of the most important things is to ensure fuel efficiency in your car. There arre many other things you can do as well.



Have you done any of these things?

I'll match my "carbon footprint" with yours anyday but if you care as much as you claim I think you should sell everything you have, go to where the bears actually are and save them. All these other "sacrifices" that you are supposedly making are mere window dressings that liberals like to use to make it look like they are making some extraordinary effort to prove their compassion.

[GW in Ohio]

That is not true. I care about the bears and do what I can to save them.

One of the most important things is to ensure fuel efficiency in your car. There arre many other things you can do as well.



Have you done any of these things?

Rahul: Great summary of what we can do to minimize the stress on our environment. I'm doing many of those things, but there's room for improvement.

[Pale Rider]

That is not true. I care about the bears and do what I can to save them.

One of the most important things is to ensure fuel efficiency in your car. There arre many other things you can do as well.



Have you done any of these things?

Great way to derail a thread. This one is about illegal aliens, not gas mileage.

[Rahul]

Great way to derail a thread. This one is about illegal aliens, not gas mileage.

Dilloduck brought up the issue of me caring for the polar bears. What was I supposed to do? Ignore him?

[Rahul]

Rahul: Great summary of what we can do to minimize the stress on our environment. I'm doing many of those things, but there's room for improvement.

Thanks. I agree, there is always room for improvement - that is the case with me too. I shouldn't be fidding around with the thermostat in the fridge/on the A/C so much for one! :D


I'll match my "carbon footprint" with yours anyday but if you care as much as you claim I think you should sell everything you have, go to where the bears actually are and save them.

What a ludicrious statement indeed.



All these other "sacrifices" that you are supposedly making are mere window dressings that liberals like to use to make it look like they are making some extraordinary effort to prove their compassion.

Nonsense. They are all things that help the environment. Which one of them did you not understand?

[Pale Rider]

Dilloduck brought up the issue of me caring for the polar bears. What was I supposed to do? Ignore him?

You're the one always playing like you're a mod and reminding people of the rules. What do you think?

If you're going to constantly preach to everyone else about obeying the rules, then you better do it too, otherwise you're a hypocrite.

[Dilloduck]

You're the one always playing like you're a mod and reminding people of the rules. What do you think?

If you're going to constantly preach to everyone else about obeying the rules, then you better do it too, otherwise you're a hypocrite.


My bad--I should known Rahul wouldn't undertand the larger picture I was trying to paint. He's obsessed with turning out his lights to save the bears. It's like Gabby wanting all the illegal Mexicans to live in someone elses state.

Back to sending the illegals home without passing " GO ".

[Rahul]

You're the one always playing like you're a mod and reminding people of the rules.

I don't play games with you.


What do you think?

I believe in responding to questions thrown at me in a courteous fashion, unlike you.



If you're going to constantly preach to everyone else about obeying the rules, then you better do it too, otherwise you're a hypocrite.

Name calling isn't required. Are you always this rude to others?


My bad--I should known Rahul wouldn't undertand the larger picture I was trying to paint. He's obsessed with turning out his lights to save the bears.

That's funny, coming from someone who brought up the bear issue himself. :)

[Pale Rider]

I don't play games with you.
You're playing games right now.


I believe in responding to questions thrown at me in a courteous fashion.
Maybe courteous, but completely off the wall.


Name calling isn't required.
You're doing it again. Stop pretending you're a mod.

[Hagbard Celine]

It's readily apparent that the illegal immigration issue really gets our right-wing friends riled up. The following is my best solution to the situation. I'd like to hear your reactions.


Shut off the flow of illegal immigration. Build a fence along our southern border. Assign the National Guard to patrol the border and hire additional border patrol agents.
For all illegals currently in this country, offer them the choice of a path to citizenship, or leave the country.
If they accept the path to citizenship, they must come out of the shadows and apply for citizenship. If they apply, they get papers and a Social Security card to show to any employer.
Those who don't want to become citizens have 30 days to leave the country. If they're found here after the 30 days, they go to jail. Then they get deported.
Increase the penalties for employers who hire workers without documentation.
Congress should approve the necessary funding for this plan. Additional INS agents will be needed to process the new applications for citizenship. Additional law enforcement agents will be needed to capture and incarcerate individuals in this country illegally.


Comments?

I like the proposal, but I always shun the creation of more law enforcement officers. More of "the man's" henchmen is the way I see it. I think I'd look the other way though if a plan this good could actually be set into motion. But even that's doubtful taking into account the way bureacracy bungles even the simplest plans.

[remie]

It's readily apparent that the illegal immigration issue really gets our right-wing friends riled up. The following is my best solution to the situation. I'd like to hear your reactions.


Shut off the flow of illegal immigration. Build a fence along our southern border. Assign the National Guard to patrol the border and hire additional border patrol agents.
For all illegals currently in this country, offer them the choice of a path to citizenship, or leave the country.
If they accept the path to citizenship, they must come out of the shadows and apply for citizenship. If they apply, they get papers and a Social Security card to show to any employer.
Those who don't want to become citizens have 30 days to leave the country. If they're found here after the 30 days, they go to jail. Then they get deported.
Increase the penalties for employers who hire workers without documentation.
Congress should approve the necessary funding for this plan. Additional INS agents will be needed to process the new applications for citizenship. Additional law enforcement agents will be needed to capture and incarcerate individuals in this country illegally.


Comments?

I can buy it all except making illegals citizens. Send them home and if you want to help someone along the path to citizenship, help the ones that are here legally. They at least have demonstrated that they have some respect for our laws.

[Dilloduck]

I can buy it all except making illegals citizens. Send them home and if you want to help someone along the path to citizenship, help the ones that are here legally. They at least have demonstrated that they have some respect for our laws.

The Z visa is AMNESTY-----no two ways about it. The Z visa needs to be killed before I would even consider looking at this bill again.

[Rahul]

You're playing games right now.


I don't play games with you.


Maybe courteous, but completely off the wall.


You did not answer. Was I supposed to ignore his comment about polar bears? Why, or why not?



You're doing it again. Stop pretending you're a mod.

I disagree. Asking you to cease with the flames and contribute to the argument is not pretending to be a moderator. Anyone genuinely interested in debate would tell you the same thing.

[Hagbard Celine]

I can buy it all except making illegals citizens. Send them home and if you want to help someone along the path to citizenship, help the ones that are here legally. They at least have demonstrated that they have some respect for our laws.

Aren't we all the product of illegal immigration? My family has been here since the 1500s, well before the INS was formed. I doubt the indians wanted us here spreading smallpox and throwing them off their land while reducing their entire race to a few small reservations in the desert. Do they have an argument that all of us are here illegally? Probably.

And isn't it a compliment that all these illegal aliens want to be here and want to be citizens of our great country? Why greet them with rebuke and vitreol when we could give them a path to citizenship? It's completely unrealistic to believe that all the illegals could be rounded up by our law enforcement as many as there are. Why grasp onto an unrealistic fantasy when giving them a path to citizenship would provide a positive answer to both sides of the argument?

[Pale Rider]

I don't play games with you.
Yes you do. You're doing it now.


You did not answer. Was I supposed to ignore his comment about polar bears? Why, or why not?
I answered your question. You just don't like the answer you're getting.


I disagree. Asking you to cease with the flames and contribute to the argument is not pretending to be a moderator.
Yes it is. Because you will not have any effect on me, since you are NOT a mod. You might as well drop the act. If you don't like the way I answer, don't answer me back, or leave.


Anyone genuinely interested in debate would tell you the same thing.
You have to first be interested in genuine debate, and you're not. You are a liberal bigot from another galaxy.

[Monkeybone]

the whole 'well we are illegals arguement' is blah in now-a-days times. yes our ancestors came from another country, and in early times there were no records. but then they started amking it that everyone had to go through processing and the like so that they were registered.

and what yah it is awesome that they wanna come here and start a new life. you wanna do that, then follow our rules. apply for citzenship. get medically checked out and make sure that you aren't a viral time bomb or a mass murderer. learn the language. become an american basically. nothing wrong with celebrating your heritage, but don't live by it that you make a tiny little country in the community that you are in. i am all for letting everyone stay, but they have some work to do before it happens.

[Pale Rider]

Aren't we all the product of illegal immigration? My family has been here since the 1500s, well before the INS was formed. I doubt the indians wanted us here spreading smallpox and throwing them off their land while reducing their entire race to a few small reservations in the desert. Do they have an argument that all of us are here illegally? Probably.
True enough... if it was the American Indians making the claim. But if you went back far enough, I'd be willing to bet they weren't the first ones here either. The mexicans have even LESS of a claim. They aren't even indigenous to mexico. The Aztecs, Huichol, Kiliwal, Mayas, Purepecha, Tarahumara, Tlahui, Yagui, Zapoteco are. Mexicans are from Spain. Maybe we should be telling them to get the hell out of mexico.


And isn't it a compliment that all these illegal aliens want to be here and want to be citizens of our great country? Why greet them with rebuke and vitreol when we could give them a path to citizenship? It's completely unrealistic to believe that all the illegals could be rounded up by our law enforcement as many as there are. Why grasp onto an unrealistic fantasy when giving them a path to citizenship would provide a positive answer to both sides of the argument?
Quite simply, every one of them is a criminal. They broke our laws by jumping our borders. WHY on earth we should we REWARD them for that?

[remie]

Aren't we all the product of illegal immigration? My family has been here since the 1500s, well before the INS was formed. I doubt the indians wanted us here spreading smallpox and throwing them off their land while reducing their entire race to a few small reservations in the desert. Do they have an argument that all of us are here illegally? Probably.

And isn't it a compliment that all these illegal aliens want to be here and want to be citizens of our great country? Why greet them with rebuke and vitreol when we could give them a path to citizenship? It's completely unrealistic to believe that all the illegals could be rounded up by our law enforcement as many as there are. Why grasp onto an unrealistic fantasy when giving them a path to citizenship would provide a positive answer to both sides of the argument?

Why do they not respect our laws? The only thing we accomplish by allowing illegals to stay is increasing the number of criminals we have here. Again, why allow them to be in the front of the line. There are many who have followed the process legally and we are pissing on them by letting the criminals in first. That makes no sense. As far as rounding them up, I dont think it would be as hard as you would have us believe. Shit give me a license and I will start tomorrow. They are not hard to find if you want to find them.

[remie]

The Z visa is AMNESTY-----no two ways about it. The Z visa needs to be killed before I would even consider looking at this bill again.

I couldnt agree more.

[GW in Ohio]

Aren't we all the product of illegal immigration? My family has been here since the 1500s, well before the INS was formed. I doubt the indians wanted us here spreading smallpox and throwing them off their land while reducing their entire race to a few small reservations in the desert. Do they have an argument that all of us are here illegally? Probably.

And isn't it a compliment that all these illegal aliens want to be here and want to be citizens of our great country? Why greet them with rebuke and vitreol when we could give them a path to citizenship? It's completely unrealistic to believe that all the illegals could be rounded up by our law enforcement as many as there are. Why grasp onto an unrealistic fantasy when giving them a path to citizenship would provide a positive answer to both sides of the argument?

Hagbard: Point well taken.

The rightwads say they want to deport all the illegals "because we must uphold the rule of law."

I say, :bsflag: bull droppings. They're here, on board the ark that is America and now they want to pull up the gangplank lest any of those brown-skinned people from Mexico should get on board.

I think in the back of their minds is this fear that someday, down the road, some brown-skinned young man named Jose will come courting their fair-haired daughters.

What do you say, right wingers? Is that what it is?

[Dilloduck]

Hagbard: Point well taken.

The rightwads say they want to deport all the illegals "because we must uphold the rule of law."

I say, :bsflag: bull droppings. They're here, on board the ark that is America and now they want to pull up the gangplank lest any of those brown-skinned people from Mexico should get on board.

I think in the back of their minds is this fear that someday, down the road, some brown-skinned young man named Jose will come courting their fair-haired daughters.

What do you say, right wingers? Is that what it is?

I say that your claims of bigotry and racism have become trite, cliche and remain unsubstantiated. Got anything else ?

[Pale Rider]

I say that your claims of bigotry and racism have become trite, cliche and remain unsubstantiated. Got anything else ?

Not only are they trite and cliche dillo, they're hollow, and have no ring of truth. It's painfully obvious that it's nothing more than the last breath of a liberal with nothing left to say with any real substance.

Conservatives ALWAYS beat liberals in the arena of reason. That's why we ALWAYS see the liberals degenerate into name calling character assassins. It's always their debate dying breath. We on the other hand, know this, and can take pride in the fact that we have kicked another liberals ass in debate. Like it's hard to do... :laugh:

[Dilloduck]

Not only are they trite and cliche dillo, they're hollow, and have no ring of truth. It's painfully obvious that it's nothing more than the last breath of a liberal with nothing left to say with any real substance.

It's getting to be a pattern around here---guess they're waiting for 2008 cause taking the house didn't help em much.

[Pale Rider]

It's getting to be a pattern around here---guess they're waiting for 2008 cause taking the house didn't help em much.

Not only did it not help, it's making them look real bad. They've accomplished exactly JACK SHIT so far, and that isn't what they claimed they were going to do.