66 years ago today

[Little-Acorn]

66 years ago today, on May 14, 1948, The UN ended the British mandate in the Palestine area, announcing plans for a Jewish state, an Arab state, and a combined area in Jerusalem; and the residents of the Jewish area proclaimed the State of Israel.

A few hours later, the new Israel was attacked by combined forces of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq. And the attacks have gone one more or less continuously, ever since.

In this first conflict of the modern State of Israel, the Israelis captured enough territory from their attackers to increase its size by nearly 70% over what had been mandated by the UN. When the Arab nations attacked, many Arabic peoples fled the battle areas, and later called themselves "Palestinian refugees".

They even managed to pass an ordinance stating that their descendants (including those not yet born who had never lived in the embattled areas) would also be called "Palestinian refugees", thus making the "refugee" problem permanent and ever-expanding instead of assimilating into the areas they had fled to.

[NightTrain]

That little country sure has had more than it's fair share of bloodshed thrown at it, over the years.

Even though Israel wants peace, I doubt she will ever see it due to the unbridled hate the surrounding arabs have for the Jews and the arabs' unwillingness to honestly try to achieve peace in the region with them.

Egypt had a king that recognized that peace was possible and was the first to officially recognize the State of Israel. He was beginning the process to build a lasting and meaningful co-existence between the two countries - and he was murdered for his efforts.

However, one thing they have internationally is respect for their military that has won stunning victories time & time again, against impossible odds on multiple fronts.

Israel is one concentrated can of whoop-ass and the surrounding arab nations have finally realized that direct military confrontation is to be avoided... which brings us to the palestinians who are being used as disposable pawns by neighboring countries supplying arms and keeping them whipped into a frenzy to carry out the senseless attacks on Israel.

[jafar00]

That little country sure has had more than it's fair share of bloodshed thrown at it, over the years.

Even though Israel wants peace, I doubt she will ever see it due to the unbridled hate the surrounding arabs have for the Jews and the arabs' unwillingness to honestly try to achieve peace in the region with them.

A state born from hate and all too pervasive British Colonial stuff ups, is bound to spend eternity in conflict. They don't want peace. They want the space all to themselves and screw the natives.


Egypt had a king that recognized that peace was possible and was the first to officially recognize the State of Israel. He was beginning the process to build a lasting and meaningful co-existence between the two countries - and he was murdered for his efforts.

Correction. Anwar Sadat was a President, not a King. He was part of the military coup that overthrew King Farouk though. The peace treaty with Israel was to secure the return of Sinai which had been occupied by Israel and that led to his assassination because of a perceived rejection of the Palestinian's desire to have their homes returned to them.

[NightTrain]

A state born from hate and all too pervasive British Colonial stuff ups, is bound to spend eternity in conflict. They don't want peace. They want the space all to themselves and screw the natives.

Wrong again.

They've given back huge tracts of land to neighboring countries after kicking the snot out of them, in return for peace.

They've offered time and time again to cede land in return for peace, followed through & pulled back, only to have those lands used as bases to lob rockets and other attacks on Israel.

Don't even try to push this; you'll make a fool of yourself.


Correction. Anwar Sadat was a President, not a King. He was part of the military coup that overthrew King Farouk though. The peace treaty with Israel was to secure the return of Sinai which had been occupied by Israel and that led to his assassination because of a perceived rejection of the Palestinian's desire to have their homes returned to them.

King, President-For-Life, Dictator... okay.

The point is that he recognized Israel amidst howls of outrage by arabs everywhere and with formal visits & a true desire for peace being forged between Egypt and Israel, he was murdered for his efforts.

[jafar00]

Wrong again.

They've given back huge tracts of land to neighboring countries after kicking the snot out of them, in return for peace.

They've offered time and time again to cede land in return for peace, followed through & pulled back, only to have those lands used as bases to lob rockets and other attacks on Israel.

Don't even try to push this; you'll make a fool of yourself.

Can you point out which "huge tracts" of land they have given back in this map?

http://www.afopa.com.au/storage/palestine%20map.jpg




King, President-For-Life, Dictator... okay.

The point is that he recognized Israel amidst howls of outrage by arabs everywhere and with formal visits & a true desire for peace being forged between Egypt and Israel, he was murdered for his efforts.

Indeed he was assassinated for it. He got Sinai back though after kicking Israel's ass. The victory is celebrated each year on the 6th of October in Egypt.

[aboutime]

Can you point out which "huge tracts" of land they have given back in this map?

http://www.afopa.com.au/storage/palestine%20map.jpg





Indeed he was assassinated for it. He got Sinai back though after kicking Israel's ass. The victory is celebrated each year on the 6th of October in Egypt.


jafar. A better question, coming from you more accurately would be. Which portions of land have been occupied by HAMAS after their rocket attacks for PEACE?

[NightTrain]

Can you point out which "huge tracts" of land they have given back in this map?

I'd be happy to!

The Blue is Israeli controlled lands.

The Green is what they've given up in return for promises of peace - which never materialized, has it?

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6089&stc=1


Indeed he was assassinated for it. He got Sinai back though after kicking Israel's ass. The victory is celebrated each year on the 6th of October in Egypt.

LOL, Egypt kicked Israel's ass in 1967? Let's review real history instead of your muzzie propaganda for a moment, shall we?


...and culminating in Egypt blocking the Straits of Tiran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straits_of_Tiran),[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-21)deploying its troops near Israel's border, and ordering the evacuation of the U.N. buffer force from the Sinai Peninsula.[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-22)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-23)Within six days, Israel had won a decisive land war. Israeli forces had taken control of the Gaza Strip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip)and the Sinai Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinai_Peninsula) from Egypt, the West Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank), including East Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem), from Jordan, and the Golan Heights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golan_Heights) from Syria.

Keep in mind that Israel did this to Egypt while simultaneously beating the holy hell out of Jordan and Syria.


On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armoured and one mechanized), four independent infantry brigades and four independent armoured brigades. No fewer than a third of them were veterans of Egypt's continuing intervention into the Yemen Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemen_Civil_War) and another third were reservists. These forces had 950 tanks, 1,100 APCs, and more than 1,000 artillery pieces.[95] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-95)

Syria's army had a total strength of 75,000 and amassed them along the Syrian border.[97] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-97) Jordan's army had 55,000 troops[98] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-98) and 300 tanks along the Jordanian border, 250 of which were U.S. M48 Pattons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M48_Patton), sizable amounts of M113 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M113_Armored_Personnel_Carrier) APCs, a new battalion of mechanized infantry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanized_infantry), and a paratrooper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paratrooper) battalion trained in the new U.S.-built school. They also had 12 battalions of artillery and six batteries of 81 mm and 120 mm mortars.[99] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-segevs-99)

100 Iraqi tanks and an infantry division were readied near the Jordanian border. Two squadrons of fighter-aircraft, Hawker Hunters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Hunter) and MiG 21 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-21), were rebased adjacent to the Jordanian border.[99] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-segevs-99)

On June 2, Jordan called up all reserve officers, and the West Bank commander met with community leaders in Ramallah to request assistance and cooperation for his troops during the war, assuring them that "in three days we'll be in Tel Aviv".[99] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-segevs-99)

The Arab air forces were aided by volunteer pilots from the Pakistan Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Air_Force) acting in independent capacity, and by some aircraft from Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia to make up for the massive losses suffered on the first day of the war.

So not only were the Israelis fighting Egypt, Jordan and Syria, they were also fighting Iraq, Pakistan, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

That's 10 much larger countries to 1 small & surrounded country.

There's no way the heroic arabs can lose, right?

Let's see how the air battle unfolded now that we see how the stage was set, shall we?


Egypt had by far the largest and the most modern of all the Arab air forces, consisting of about 420 combat aircraft,[109] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-109) all of them Soviet-built and with a heavy quota of top-of-the line MiG-21s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-21). Of particular concern to the Israelis were the 30 Tu-16 "Badger" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-16)medium bombers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_bomber), capable of inflicting heavy damage on Israeli military and civilian centers.[110] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-110)

On June 5 at 7:45 Israeli time, as civil defense sirens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_defense_siren) sounded all over Israel, the IAF launched Operation Focus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Focus) (Moked). All but 12 of its nearly 200 operational jets[111] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-111) launched a mass attack against Egypt's airfields.[112] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-112) Most of the Israeli warplanes headed out over the Mediterranean Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Sea), flying low to avoid radar detection, before turning toward Egypt. Others flew over the Red Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Sea).[113] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-Oren_2002-113)

The Israelis employed a mixed attack strategy: bombing and strafing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafing) runs against planes parked on the ground, themselves, and bombing the runways with special tarmac-shredding penetration bombs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarmac-shredding_penetration_bomb) developed jointly with France to disable them and leave surviving aircraft unable to take off. The runway at the Arish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arish) airfield was spared, as the Israelis expected to turn it into a military airport for their transports after the war. The surviving aircraft were later taken out by several more attack waves. The operation was more successful than expected, catching the Egyptians by surprise and destroying virtually all of the Egyptian Air Force on the ground, with few Israeli losses. Only four unarmed Egyptian training flights were in the air when the strike began.[115] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-115) A total of 338 Egyptian aircraft were destroyed and 100 pilots were killed,[116] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-116)although the number of aircraft actually lost by the Egyptians is disputed.[117] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-117)
Among the Egyptian planes lost were all 30 Tu-16 bombers, 27 out of 40 Il-28 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-28) bombers, 12 Su-7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Su-7) fighter-bombers, over 90 MiG-21s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiG-21), 20 MiG-19s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiG-19), 25 MiG-17 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiG-17) fighters, and around 32 assorted transport planes and helicopters. In addition, Egyptian radars and SAM missiles were also attacked and destroyed. The Israelis lost 19 planes, including two destroyed in air-to-air combat and 13 downed by anti-aircraft artillery.[118] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-118) One Israeli plane, which was damaged and unable to break radio silence, was shot down by Israeli Hawk missiles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-23_Hawk) after it strayed over the Negev Nuclear Research Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negev_Nuclear_Research_Center).[119] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-Oren178-119) Another was destroyed by an exploding Egyptian bomber.[120] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-120)

The attack guaranteed Israeli air superiority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_superiority) for the rest of the war.

Oops.

So, with the entire Middle East engaged against Israel, only 2 Israeli fighters were shot down in air-to-air combat, and 13 from Anti-Aircraft fire. That's pretty damned impressive, don't you think, Jafar?


Meanwhile, Egyptian state-run radio had reported an Egyptian victory, falsely claiming that 70 Israeli planes had been downed on the first day of fighting.[121] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-npr-121)

LOL! Sounds pretty familiar... are you familiar with Baghdad Bob? We enjoyed his reports, almost as much as I get a kick out of your silly comment of who kicked who's ass.

But wait, it gets worse for the hapless arabs suddenly holding the wrong end of a chainsaw once the ground war begins in the next post.

[NightTrain]

And now the land campaign, Jafar.


Be sure you take notes so you can educate your muslim brethren because I know the truth is important to you.


The Egyptian forces consisted of seven divisions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_(military)): four armoured (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_(military)#Armored_divisions), two infantry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_(military)#Armored_divisions), and one mechanized infantry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanized_infantry). Overall, Egypt had around 100,000 troops and 900–950 tanks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank) in the Sinai, backed by 1,100 APCs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armored_personnel_carrier) and 1,000 artillery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery) pieces.[122] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-122)

Israeli forces concentrated on the border with Egypt included six armoured brigades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigade), one infantry brigade, one mechanized infantry brigade, three paratrooper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paratrooper) brigades, giving a total of around 70,000 men and 700 tanks, who were organized in three armoured divisions.

With the road open, Israeli forces continued advancing towards Arish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arish). Already by late afternoon, elements of the 79th Armored Battalion had charged through the seven-mile long Jiradi defile, a narrow pass defended by well-emplaced troops of the Egyptian 112th Infantry Brigade. In fierce fighting, which saw the pass change hands several times, the Israelis charged through the position. The Egyptians suffered heavy casualties and tank losses, while Israeli losses stood at 66 dead, 93 wounded and 28 tanks. Emerging at the western end, Israeli forces advanced to the outskirts of Arish.[124] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-124) As it reached the outskirts of Arish, Tal's division also consolidated its hold on Rafah and Khan Yunis.

The following day, the Israeli forces on the outskirts of Arish were reinforced by the 7th Brigade, which fought its way through the Jiradi pass. After receiving supplies via an airdrop, the Israelis entered the city and captured the airport at 7:50 am. The Israelis entered the city at 8:00 am.

As night fell, the Israeli assault troops lit flashlights, each battalion a different color, to prevent friendly fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire) incidents. At 10:00 pm, Israeli artillery began a barrage on Um-Katef, firing some 6,000 shells in less than twenty minutes, the most concentrated artillery barrage in Israel's history.[128] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-128)[129] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-129) Israeli tanks assaulted the northernmost Egyptian defenses and were largely successful, though an entire armoured brigade was stalled by mines, and had only one mine-clearance tank. Israeli infantrymen assaulted the triple line of trenches in the east. To the west, paratroopers commanded by Colonel Danny Matt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Matt) landed behind Egyptian lines, though half the helicopters got lost and never found the battlefield, while others were unable to land due to mortar fire.[130] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-Oren.2C_p._201-130)[131] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-Hammel_1992.2C_p._239-131)


Paratroopers dropped behind Egyptian lines, neutralized their artillery, destroying much of the ammunition dumps, and separated gun crews from their batteries, sowing enough confusion to significantly reduce Egyptian artillery fire. Egyptian reinforcements from Jabal Libni advanced towards Um-Katef to counterattack, but failed to reach their objective, being subjected to heavy air attacks and encountering Israeli lodgements on the roads. Egyptian commanders then called in artillery attacks on their own positions. The Israelis accomplished and sometimes exceeded their overall plan, and had largely succeeded by the following day. The Egyptians took heavy casualties, while the Israelis lost 40 dead and 140 wounded.[130] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-Oren.2C_p._201-130)[131] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-Hammel_1992.2C_p._239-131)


Yoffe's attack allowed Sharon to complete the capture of the Um-Katef, after fierce fighting. The main thrust at Um-Katef was stalled due to mines and craters. After IDF engineers had cleared a path by 4:00 pm, Israeli and Egyptian tanks engaged in fierce combat, often at ranges as close as ten yards. The battle ended in an Israeli victory, with 40 Egyptian and 19 Israeli tanks destroyed. Meanwhile, Israeli infantry finished clearing out the Egyptian trenches, with Israeli casualties standing at 14 dead and 41 wounded and Egyptian casualties at 300 dead and 100 taken prisoner.[132] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-132)


Meanwhile, two Israeli reserve brigades under Brigadier-General Avraham Yoffe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avraham_Yoffe), each equipped with 100 tanks, penetrated the Sinai south of Tal's division and north of Sharon's, capturing the road junctions of Abu Ageila, Bir Lahfan, and Arish, taking all of them before midnight. Two Egyptian armoured brigades counterattacked, and a fierce battle took place until the following morning. The Egyptians were beaten back by fierce resistance coupled with airstrikes, sustaining heavy tank losses. They fled west towards Jabal Libni.[133] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-133)


Further south, the 8th Armored Brigade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8th_Armored_Brigade_(Israel)) under Colonel Albert Mandler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Mandler), initially positioned as a ruse to draw off invasion forces from the real invasion routes, attacked the fortified bunkers at ****illa, a strategically valuable position whose capture would enable Mandler to block reinforcements from reaching Um-Katef and to join Sharon's upcoming attack on Nakhl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nekhel). The defending Egyptian battalion, outnumbered and outgunned, fiercely resisted the attack, hitting a number of Israeli tanks. However, most of the defenders were killed, and only three Egyptian tanks, one of them damaged, survived. By nightfall, Mendler's forces had taken ****illa.[125] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-Oren202-125)


During the ground fighting, remnants of the Egyptian Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Air_Force) attacked Israeli ground forces, but took losses from the Israeli Air Force and from Israeli anti-aircraft units. Throughout the last four days, Egyptian aircraft flew 150 sorties against Israeli units in the Sinai.
Many of the Egyptian units remained intact and could have tried to prevent the Israelis from reaching the Suez Canal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Canal) or engaged in combat in the attempt to reach the canal. However, when the Egyptian Field Marshal Abdel Hakim Amer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdel_Hakim_Amer) heard about the fall of Abu-Ageila (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu-Ageila), he panicked and ordered all units in the Sinai to retreat. This order effectively meant the defeat of Egypt.
President Nasser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamal_Abdel_Nasser), having learned of the results of the air strike, decided together with Field Marshal Amer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdel_Hakim_Amer) to pull out the troops from Sinai within 24 hours. No detailed instructions were given concerning the manner and sequence of withdrawal.[134] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-ahram1-134)Note that it's here, Jafar, that Nasser The Bold ordered a full retreat with no instructions which amounts to "Just get the hell off the battlefield and somehow get home!"


Yep, he threw in the towel at this point.


And this is where the real Egyptian panic sets in - how far will the Israelis go? Will they take the capitol?


And get this : This was just on the first day of the war - June 5th, 1967!


Stay with me, Jafar, it gets even better.

As Egyptian columns retreated, Israeli aircraft and artillery attacked them. Israeli jets used napalm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm) bombs during their sorties. The attacks destroyed hundreds of vehicles and caused heavy casualties. At Jabal Libni, retreating Egyptian soldiers were fired upon by their own artillery. At Bir Gafgafa, the Egyptians fiercely resisted advancing Israeli forces, knocking out three tanks and eight half-tracks, and killing 20 soldiers. Due to the Egyptians' retreat, the Israeli High Command decided not to pursue the Egyptian units but rather to bypass and destroy them in the mountainous passes of West Sinai.



Therefore, in the following two days (June 6 and 7), all three Israeli divisions (Sharon and Tal were reinforced by an armoured brigade each) rushed westwards and reached the passes. Sharon's division first went southward then westward, via An-Nakhl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An-Nakhl_Fortress), to Mitla Pass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitla_Pass) with air support. It was joined there by parts of Yoffe's division, while its other units blocked the Gidi Pass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gidi_Pass). These passes became killing grounds for the Egyptians, who ran right into waiting Israeli positions and suffered heavy losses. According to Egyptian diplomat Mahmoud Riad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Riad), 10,000 men were killed in one day alone, and many others died from hunger and thirst. Tal's units stopped at various points to the length of the Suez Canal.


Due to the haste of the Egyptian retreat, soldiers often abandoned weapons, military equipment, and hundreds of vehicles. Many Egyptian soldiers were cut off from their units had to walk about 200 kilometers through by foot before reaching the Suez Canal with limited supplies of food and water and were exposed to intense heat.
Thousands of soldiers died as a result. Many Egyptian soldiers chose instead to surrender to the Israelis. However, the Israelis eventually exceeded their capabilities to provide for prisoners. As a result, they began directing soldiers towards the Suez Canal and only taking prisoner high-ranking officers, who were expected to be exchanged for captured Israeli pilots.

You know, I'm positive that had the positions been reversed, they'd have all died to a man. Agree?
On June 7, Israel began the conquest of Sharm el-Sheikh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharm_el-Sheikh). The Israeli Navy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Navy) started the operation with a probe of Egyptian naval defenses. An aerial reconnaissance flight found that the area was less defended than originally thought. At about 4:30 am, three Israeli missile boats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_boat) opened fire on Egyptian shore batteries, while paratroopers and commandos boarded helicopters and Nord Noratlas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Noratlas) transport planes for an assault on Al-Tur, as Chief of Staff Rabin was convinced it was too risky to land them directly in Sharm el-Sheikh.[135] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-Oren.2C_p._248-135)



However, the city had been largely abandoned the day before, and reports from air and naval forces finally convinced Rabin to divert the aircraft to Sharm el-Sheikh. There, the Israelis engaged in a pitched battle with the Egyptians and took the city, killing 20 Egyptian soldiers and taking 8 prisoner. At 12:15 pm, Defense Minister Dayan announced that the Straits of Tiran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straits_of_Tiran) constituted an international waterway open to all ships without restriction.[135] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#cite_note-Oren.2C_p._248-135)


On June 8, Israel completed the capture of the Sinai by sending infantry units to Ras Sudar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ras_Sudar) on the western coast of the peninsula.

Even in the middle of a battle for her very existence, Israel still thought of other country's shipping needs and re-opened them to all ships. Seems pretty generous, don't you think, Jafar?


But here's the part that I've always really enjoyed, and I think you will too : At this point, with Israel on the other side of the Suez Canal, Nasser was convinced that Israel was going to take Cairo. His airforce was decimated and his army was scattered to hell and back, raggedly trickling back in after surrendering en masse to the Israelis out in the desert.


So he appealed to the Soviet Union, who called the USA, telling us that if Cairo was taken they would have to get directly involved. We didn't really want World War III out of this arab misadventure, so we asked Israel to stop their advance.


But as it turned out, Israel wasn't even thinking of taking Cairo because it would have been a long, bloody, drawn out affair - and besides, they hadn't wanted want this war in the first place and sure as hell didn't want Cairo.


Crushing the Egyptian military in self defense was their only goal, and even though they could have kept the Suez Canal, they didn't. They gave the whole peninsula back in return for peace in 1978, which was awfully nice of them to do, considering that Egypt attacked them again in 1973 and again got spanked.


Don't you think, Jafar?


Seriously, Jafar, I really don't know why you embarrass yourself by spouting the lies that you do. You're not some ignorant kid growing up in a back alley in Lebanon and this stuff is readily available to anyone interested in the truth.


All you've done is prove to the board that you don't give a rat's ass about the truth and you willingly try to spread easily disproven lies driven by your hatred of Jews - and you've been a muslim for what, 14 whole years now? Charming.


Way to represent Islam, O Holy One. Think you've made a good example of an honest muslim to the world?

[jafar00]

I'd be happy to!

The Blue is Israeli controlled lands.

The Green is what they've given up in return for promises of peace - which never materialized, has it?

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6089&stc=1


Oh, you mean Israel retreated from land they occupied after invading Egypt. Then withdrew from other illegally occupied land after walling off the Palestinians in little easily managed ghettos which they still invade and bomb on a regular basis.
Your map is ridiculous. Nobody with half a brain will believe that nonsense.

[Noir]

Oh, you mean Israel retreated from land they occupied after invading Egypt. Then withdrew from other illegally occupied land after walling off the Palestinians in little easily managed ghettos which they still invade and bomb on a regular basis. Your map is ridiculous. Nobody with half a brain will believe that nonsense.

Gotta say, having read your posts in this thread, and NightTrains, my half-a-brains believing in his nonsense.

[fj1200]

Oh, you mean Israel retreated from land they occupied after invading Egypt. Then withdrew from other illegally occupied land after walling off the Palestinians in little easily managed ghettos which they still invade and bomb on a regular basis.
Your map is ridiculous. Nobody with half a brain will believe that nonsense.

The question at this point is what will bring peace? Israel isn't going anywhere and the Palestinian plight isn't getting better under their current leadership.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

[
QUOTE=jafar00;690729]Oh, you mean Israel retreated from land they occupied after invading Egypt. Then withdrew from other illegally occupied land after walling off the Palestinians in little easily managed ghettos which they still invade and bomb on a regular basis.
Your map is ridiculous. Nobody with half a brain will believe that nonsense.[/QUOTE]

Here are some facts for you, that you so desperately need Jafar! -Tyr





http://www.english-online.at/current_affairs/arab-israeli-conflict/conflict-in-the-middle-east.htm



The Arab-Israeli conflict is a struggle between the Jewish state of Israel and the Arabs of the Middle East. It has continued for many decades and there has been no peaceful solution so far.



From the Beginnings to 1948

Many religions look upon the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea as their homeland. This historic land is called Palestine. Before the birth of Christ, the Jews also lived here. Later on , the Romans invaded the area and made it Christian. The Jews were driven away and had to live in other parts of the world.

Muslims also think of Palestine as a holy place. In the Middle Ages the land was ruled by the Turks of the Ottoman Empire and more and more Arabs came to Palestine.

In the middle of the 19th century, Jews started to think about coming back to Palestine. This idea was called Zionism. By the beginning of the 20th century, more and more Jews came back to Palestine and started a new life there.

At the end of World War I the Turks were defeated and Great Britain ruled Palestine. The British helped the Jews and wanted to create a new country for them. During the Second World War about 6 million Jews were murdered by German Nazis in the Holocaust. Those who survived had no place to go.

In 1947 , the United Nations decided to divide Palestine into two states : Israel for the Jews and Palestine for the Arabs. The Jews accepted the plan but the Arabs didn’t want the Jews to take over their country.

When the British left Palestine in 1948, Israel declared its independence. At once, Arab countries started to attack the new state but Israel fought back and won. It also expanded its territory and occupied more land than the UN gave it. Other Arab countries—Egypt, Syria and Jordan—took over the Arab part of Palestine. Over 700,000 Palestinians became refugees. Most of them fled to Israel’s neighbours .



From 1948 to the present

Since the war of 1948, Israel has had to fight three more wars against its Arab neighbours. In 1956 Egypt took control of the Suez Canal from Great Britain and France. Together with Israel, these two countries attacked Egypt and, for a short time, Israel took control of the Sinai peninsula.

In May 1967, Egypt’s president Nasser prepared for another attack on Israel. He closed Israel’s only route to the sea and soldiers from all the Arab countries marched to Israel’s border. However, Israel attacked first and surprised its enemies. In a war that lasted only six days , Israel defeated the Arabs and took over some of their land:
• the Golan Heights from Syria
• the West Bank from Jordan
• the Gaza Strip from Egypt.

It also took control of East Jerusalem.

The fourth and last war took place in October 1973. It surprised Israel because Egypt and Syria attacked on Yom Kippur, one of Israel’s holiest days. Israel fought back and defeated the Arabs once again. They took control of the Sinai Peninsula, but gave it back to Egypt two years later.

In the late 1970s Egypt saw that it could not win a war against Israel, so it became the first Arab country to make peace with the Jewish state.

In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon, its northern neighbour. The PLO, an organisation thought fought for the rights of the Palestinians, continued to attack Israel from southern Lebanon. Israel's soldiers stayed in Lebanon until 2000.

Towards the end of the 1980’s Palestinians in the occupied lands started to protest against Israel’s rule. This was known as the first Intifada. There were demonstrations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Arabs stopped working for Israelis and some towns stopped paying taxes to the Israeli government. Israel had to use more and more force to get these territories under control.




Nablus - A West Bank town

Nablus - A West Bank town



Peace Talks of the 1990s






At the beginning of the 1990s, the PLO realized that its only hope was to make peace with Israel. In 1993 an agreement was signed between the PLO and Israel. The PLO recognised Israel’s right to exist and Israel promised to give back some of the land that it took away in 1967. It also agreed to talks on a Palestinian state. By the end of the century, more and more land was given back to the Palestinians and they also set up their own government in these areas.

But when the peace talks slowed down in 2000, the second Intifada began. Palestinian suicide bombers started blowing themselves up in Israeli towns , killing many Israelis . In return, Israel’s army took control of most parts of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

Today, lasting peace is farther away than ever before, because there are extremists on both sides who don’t want to live together peacefully.





The New Millennium

During the second Intifada Israel sent soldiers to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. They started building a fence around the occupied territories.

In 2006 Hezbollah, an extremist group, took control of Lebanon, Israeli soldiers were kidnapped and rocket attacks were launched against northern Israel. As retaliation Israel invaded Lebanon to stop the attacks.

In the Gaza Strip Hamas, another paramilitary organization has become more powerful and today controls the Gaza Strip. It started launching attacks against Israel. Israel reacted by sending more troops into the area.



The PLO

The Palestine Liberation Organisation is a political group that fights for the rights of the Arab people in Palestine. Its main goal is to create an independent state for these people. Today there are more than 4 million people who live in the lands that are occupied by Israel.

The PLO is made up of people from all social classes—doctors, lawyers, teachers and , of course, people from the working classes. There are also radical members, who hate the Israelis and don’t want to live in peace with them.

The PLO was founded in 1964 . Yassir Arafat was their leader for over 35 years. He died in 2004. The organisation has never had a real home. Over the years they have been in Jordan and Lebanon, but they are not very welcome anywhere.

Today, the PLO controls some parts of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip , where they also have their own government. In the past few years Arafat’s successor Mahmoud Abbas has had problems controlling groups that want to destroy Israel. Radical Palestinians put bombs on their bodies and blow themselves up in crowded areas.

[NightTrain]

Oh, you mean Israel retreated from land they occupied after invading Egypt.

But wait a minute, Jafar. Let's revisit what you said earlier in this very thread :


He got Sinai back though after kicking Israel's ass.

You can't have it both ways. It appears to me that you're having trouble keeping track of your special version of history.

I will explain it to you - I'm a helpful kind of guy and I've always found this particular bit of history fascinating, and I want you to come away from this with lots of new facts you can amaze your Mosque-frequenting buddies with.

Israel took the entire Sinai Peninsula from Egypt in a stunning victory that shattered every facet of Egypt's military. They even controlled the Suez Canal, and it should be noted that the Israelis were reluctant conquerors because they really didn't want any of it.

Israel had more than tripled her size in a matter of 3 days of fighting - and there was no way the UN was going to do anything about it since Egypt & the other knuckleheads had started the whole thing and deserved to lose a large chunk of territory.

But it was a good bargaining chip, because the Egyptians wanted it back desperately - but had no means to do so. Egypt and the rest of the Middle East were suddenly the military laughingstock internationally and Generals the world over were scratching their heads trying to figure out how Egypt & the others had managed to lose so completely and quickly.

A plan was hatched to redeem themselves and launched 6 years later.

So in 1973, this time with Anwar Sadat behind the wheel, Egypt & Syria again launched a surprise attack on Israel, known as the Yom Kippur War. The timing was deliberately done to coincide with most of Israel's military on leave to observe their religious holiday and there were minimal forces deployed & active. Initially, Israel was taken by surprise (which was an embarrassment to Mossad that should have seen it coming) and there were arab gains in the first few hours.

Israel quickly recovered, activated their reserves & military on leave, and the Arabs began receiving their ass-whoopings anew, with a vengeance.

I won't alarm you with the details of the annihilation of the Arab armies again, Jafar, unless you'd like me to, but it's very interesting and extremely impressive with regard to the performance of Israel's military.

The result was the same as 1967 with the efficient man-handling of Egypt & Syria's military in direct confrontation.

They even panicked again and cried to Moscow to save Cairo, and the same thing happened again as before. This time the USA went to DEFCON 3, which alarmed the Soviets that we'd do such a thing over Egypt and Syria and they began berating the Arabs behind the scenes for their inept performance with the latest Soviet hardware.

The UN called for a cease-fire, but both sides continued fighting anyway, mostly because Egypt's 3rd Army at the city of Suez was surrounded and in danger of being annihilated. Israel wanted to kill it (a sound military policy) and Egypt wanted to save it from destruction (another sound military policy).

The other Middle East countries in this 1973 war contributed over 100,000 soldiers & hardware from Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Algeria, Libya, Morocco, Tunisia, Kuwait, Lebanon, Sudan, Cuba and Pakistan. They didn't make much difference, as before.

The end result was the Israelis held land west of the Suez Canal and the Egyptians had lost more land than they had prior to the start of the conflict. Israel accepted UN "buffer" peacekeepers on the Sinai which helped calm things down.

Doesn't sound like a military success, does it, Jafar? Yes, this is what the Egyptians celebrate on October 6th, and no one in their right mind would call this an Egyptian victory. An honest Egyptian would call it "The 2nd time in 6 years we got our asses kicked by a tiny country".



Can you point out which "huge tracts" of land they have given back in this map?

In the Camp David Accords in 1978, Israel agreed to return the Sinai to Egypt in return for peace. The last of their withdrawals from there was in 1982.

Stated, backed up and irrefutable. You're welcome.

I invite you to read it for yourself - I wouldn't lie to you, but don't just take my word for it. It's all verified with thousands of supporting links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War


Then withdrew from other illegally occupied land after walling off the Palestinians in little easily managed ghettos which they still invade and bomb on a regular basis.

You don't want to get into this part, either, Jafar. Really, you don't.

Unless you really believe the whole 'Palestinian' propaganda bullshit, in which case I will gladly sit down and type it all out for you and educate you. Those 'Palestinians' are displaced Egyptians, Lebanese, Jordanians and Syrians that found themselves on the wrong side of the border after their countries lost land in ill-conceived wars against Israel, as I outlined for you above.

I realize that I concentrated on Egypt's defeat, this was because you seem to have a personal interest in Egypt and your factual knowledge was sorely lacking in historical events. I trust you're up to speed now?

But I'm more than willing to show you when, where and how these 'Palestinians' came to be, and from which country they're from. Gaza Strip and Golan Heights will tie right back into what I just educated you about from '67 and '73, only it won't be the Egyptians getting their asses handed to them this time.

Would you like to retract your asinine claims about the 'Palestinians' or would you like me to take you to task? You've spouted off enough ammo for me all over this board that I'll quote and make you eat every word.

I haven't been in the mood for a while... but I've had enough of your lies.

I'll smoke you if you try me. I have facts on my side. :smoke:


Your map is ridiculous. Nobody with half a brain will believe that nonsense.

I just proved it in regards to the Sinai. Checkmate.

Refute it if you think you're man enough.

[Drummond]

The simple truth (maybe overly simple) is that there will never be peace in the region until all non-Israelis give up their hatreds and their hostile desires against the State of Israel.

After all these decades, that hatred still burns very strongly. Its very existence poisons peace. And it will never go of its own accord.

See ...

http://www.aawsat.net/2014/05/article55332303


Ramallah, Asharq Al-Awsat—Officials from rival Palestinian factions Fatah and Hamas have drawn up a list of cabinet members for a new interim unity government to be led by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, Asharq Al-Awsat has learned.

After Wednesday’s one-day talks in Gaza, the two groups agreed to form a 15-member interim government, including ministers of the interior, foreign affairs and health.

In exclusive comments to Asharq Al-Awsat, a member of the Fatah delegation to Gaza, Faisal Abu Shahla, said that Wednesday’s talks were “very positive and serious,” adding that the two sides had “agreed on the nature of the government, and its tasks and role.”

Responding to a question about whether the government line-up has been determined, Abu Shahla said: “The two factions have deliberated the names on the table,” adding that Abbas will “choose his government by himself after his foreign tour.”

The talks come as part of an April 23 deal aimed at reviving reconciliation efforts between the two factions. Under the deal, the Palestinians have to form an interim unity government of technocrats by the end of May. The aim of the government is to prepare for the 2015 general elections.

The two factions have been at odds since 2007, when Hamas’s victory in legislative elections led to a series of violent clashes that left it in possession of the Gaza Strip, with Fatah controlling parts of the West Bank.

Previous attempts to broker reconciliation between the two sides in 2013 broke down, but now both face mounting political pressure from various sources pushing them to make fresh efforts.

Despite reports of progress in rebuilding relations between both groups, Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas may yet face stiffer challenges in winning Western support—or acquiescence—for a unity government which includes Hamas, designated as a terrorist organization in a number of Western countries, including the US.

Hamas is designated a terrorist organisation because it IS one. Everyone knows this. Yet, here we have Abbas joining forces with Hamas.

Hamas has, as a core imperative, a goal of NEVER genuinely entertaining a peaceful resolution with Israel ... they want only Israel's destruction. And now, Abbas and his faction are joining with them .. which proves the impossibility of hoping for real peace from the so-called 'Palestinian' side.

How can Israel meet such a challenge to its future ?

I see only one way. Since their opposition are centred on their hatreds, since they'll never give them up ... as I see it, Israel's only hope is to fight to secure their future. Hamas is an implacable enemy. Israel should act to destroy them once and for all.

Any 'Palestinian'wanting peace, evidently, must be shown the hard way where their only chance of it lies. And it's a lesson Israel must resolve to teach them.

After all, Hamas are only terrorists. Wiping the trash out does the world a favour.

[NightTrain]

I agree that something else needs to be done, Drummond, but I have another idea that would be a bit more... politically feasible than extermination.

It would be easier to simply expel the palestinians outside of the borders and prevent them from re-entering. There would certainly be bitter fighting by the resident terrorists about to lose their base of operations, but in the long run it would be for the best for everyone. Referring to the 2001 map I provided Jafar above, the internal Green areas would have to be annexed to secure the country to a 1993 state.

Giving land for peace hasn't gotten them anywhere, other than with Egypt. Everywhere else it's been a miserable failure for Israel, because they're not dealing with a country that you can retaliate against - instead they're having to beat up combatants within their own borders or areas not officially claimed by anyone other than fronts for PLO, Hamas and others of that ilk.

The problem with this solution right now is that it wouldn't be politically feasible because they'd find themselves with crippling sanctions imposed by the UN and isolated. With a strong U.S. President we could veto many of these proposals in the UN to protect Israel in this endeavor, but I strongly doubt it would happen right now and I think at the moment America would allow the UN to severely punish Israel over it.

The palestinians have mastered the process of goading Israel into attacking them, and then loudly claiming atrocities committed internationally - and Western liberals eat this kind of propaganda up with gusto, let alone what muslims being fed State-Run Media think.

Hell, just consider Jafar who resides in Australia. He's got full access to the internet like all of us do in the Free World, and yet buys into manufactured events, half-truths and outright lies without blinking an eye - and actually comes on this American board to try to shamelessly spread propaganda with no interest in looking up the facts for himself.

So here is a First-World educated muslim with the capability to easily learn the truth but willfully shuns it like it was wrapped in bacon. How do you get past willful ignorance? I simply can't see any reasonable way around that issue.

The arabs will never accept Israel nor their right to exist, and these 'peace talks' have always been a sham to buy time to rearm the terrorists & draw up new plans. Nothing will change with the way things are.

Really the only solution when you consider the muslim mindset is to forcibly expel all palestinians outside of those 1993 borders in the map I provided above and build a damn wall around the Northern & Western part of the country. Call Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt and tell them to come pick up their refugees.

Once you have the interior of the country secured, defense will become exponentially easier for the IDF. If terrorists lob rockets at Israel from Syrian territory, you take Syria to task for it - problem solved because there's no more grey areas anymore to feign innocence and Syria will crack down on the terrorists and start policing them instead of arming & encouraging them like they do now.

Rockets from Lebanon? Take out their airport. They'll soon have their troublemakers in prison because it's really expensive to rebuild that airport.

Harsh? Yep, no question about it and it sucks for the ones getting expelled that weren't involved in terrorist acts or supporting such things. But this action will prevent losses on both sides and will achieve peace.

These insincere peace negotiations from the palestinians have gotten exactly nowhere and this is the only solution I see that would work, even though there will be condemnations worldwide from liberals & muslims... but they've had their chance for many years now with a perfect 100% failure rate.

[Drummond]

I agree that something else needs to be done, Drummond, but I have another idea that would be a bit more... politically feasible than extermination.

It would be easier to simply expel the palestinians outside of the borders and prevent them from re-entering. There would certainly be bitter fighting by the resident terrorists about to lose their base of operations, but in the long run it would be for the best for everyone. Referring to the 2001 map I provided Jafar above, the internal Green areas would have to be annexed to secure the country to a 1993 state.

Giving land for peace hasn't gotten them anywhere, other than with Egypt. Everywhere else it's been a miserable failure for Israel, because they're not dealing with a country that you can retaliate against - instead they're having to beat up combatants within their own borders or areas not officially claimed by anyone other than fronts for PLO, Hamas and others of that ilk.

The problem with this solution right now is that it wouldn't be politically feasible because they'd find themselves with crippling sanctions imposed by the UN and isolated. With a strong U.S. President we could veto many of these proposals in the UN to protect Israel in this endeavor, but I strongly doubt it would happen right now and I think at the moment America would allow the UN to severely punish Israel over it.

The palestinians have mastered the process of goading Israel into attacking them, and then loudly claiming atrocities committed internationally - and Western liberals eat this kind of propaganda up with gusto, let alone what muslims being fed State-Run Media think.

Hell, just consider Jafar who resides in Australia. He's got full access to the internet like all of us do in the Free World, and yet buys into manufactured events, half-truths and outright lies without blinking an eye - and actually comes on this American board to try to shamelessly spread propaganda with no interest in looking up the facts for himself.

So here is a First-World educated muslim with the capability to easily learn the truth but willfully shuns it like it was wrapped in bacon. How do you get past willful ignorance? I simply can't see any reasonable way around that issue.

The arabs will never accept Israel nor their right to exist, and these 'peace talks' have always been a sham to buy time to rearm the terrorists & draw up new plans. Nothing will change with the way things are.

Really the only solution when you consider the muslim mindset is to forcibly expel all palestinians outside of those 1993 borders in the map I provided above and build a damn wall around the Northern & Western part of the country. Call Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt and tell them to come pick up their refugees.

Once you have the interior of the country secured, defense will become exponentially easier for the IDF. If terrorists lob rockets at Israel from Syrian territory, you take Syria to task for it - problem solved because there's no more grey areas anymore to feign innocence and Syria will crack down on the terrorists and start policing them instead of arming & encouraging them like they do now.

Rockets from Lebanon? Take out their airport. They'll soon have their troublemakers in prison because it's really expensive to rebuild that airport.

Harsh? Yep, no question about it and it sucks for the ones getting expelled that weren't involved in terrorist acts or supporting such things. But this action will prevent losses on both sides and will achieve peace.

These insincere peace negotiations from the palestinians have gotten exactly nowhere and this is the only solution I see that would work, even though there will be condemnations worldwide from liberals & muslims... but they've had their chance for many years now with a perfect 100% failure rate.:clap::clap::clap:

This is a great post !

I don't know if all this would pan out quite as you describe it .. but I also can't really fault this, either. I like your thinking !

OK, I look forward to Jafar's response. IF he'll be inclined to give one.

[NightTrain]

Jafar?

Is this thing on?

Hello, Jafar?

We have unfinished business in this thread. Let's get to it, shall we?

[Little-Acorn]

Looks like jafar has fled in embarrassment, after getting creamed in the debate. Again.

[Jeff]

Looks like jafar has fled in embarrassment, after getting creamed in the debate. Again.



jafar has left the building :laugh:

[aboutime]

jafar has left the building :laugh:


jafar WILL BE BACK. He has far too much unrepeated propaganda to SPOUT.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I agree that something else needs to be done, Drummond, but I have another idea that would be a bit more... politically feasible than extermination.

It would be easier to simply expel the palestinians outside of the borders and prevent them from re-entering. There would certainly be bitter fighting by the resident terrorists about to lose their base of operations, but in the long run it would be for the best for everyone. Referring to the 2001 map I provided Jafar above, the internal Green areas would have to be annexed to secure the country to a 1993 state.

Giving land for peace hasn't gotten them anywhere, other than with Egypt. Everywhere else it's been a miserable failure for Israel, because they're not dealing with a country that you can retaliate against - instead they're having to beat up combatants within their own borders or areas not officially claimed by anyone other than fronts for PLO, Hamas and others of that ilk.

The problem with this solution right now is that it wouldn't be politically feasible because they'd find themselves with crippling sanctions imposed by the UN and isolated. With a strong U.S. President we could veto many of these proposals in the UN to protect Israel in this endeavor, but I strongly doubt it would happen right now and I think at the moment America would allow the UN to severely punish Israel over it.

The palestinians have mastered the process of goading Israel into attacking them, and then loudly claiming atrocities committed internationally - and Western liberals eat this kind of propaganda up with gusto, let alone what muslims being fed State-Run Media think.

Hell, just consider Jafar who resides in Australia. He's got full access to the internet like all of us do in the Free World, and yet buys into manufactured events, half-truths and outright lies without blinking an eye - and actually comes on this American board to try to shamelessly spread propaganda with no interest in looking up the facts for himself.

So here is a First-World educated muslim with the capability to easily learn the truth but willfully shuns it like it was wrapped in bacon. How do you get past willful ignorance? I simply can't see any reasonable way around that issue.

The arabs will never accept Israel nor their right to exist, and these 'peace talks' have always been a sham to buy time to rearm the terrorists & draw up new plans. Nothing will change with the way things are.

Really the only solution when you consider the muslim mindset is to forcibly expel all palestinians outside of those 1993 borders in the map I provided above and build a damn wall around the Northern & Western part of the country. Call Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt and tell them to come pick up their refugees.

Once you have the interior of the country secured, defense will become exponentially easier for the IDF. If terrorists lob rockets at Israel from Syrian territory, you take Syria to task for it - problem solved because there's no more grey areas anymore to feign innocence and Syria will crack down on the terrorists and start policing them instead of arming & encouraging them like they do now.

Rockets from Lebanon? Take out their airport. They'll soon have their troublemakers in prison because it's really expensive to rebuild that airport.

Harsh? Yep, no question about it and it sucks for the ones getting expelled that weren't involved in terrorist acts or supporting such things. But this action will prevent losses on both sides and will achieve peace.

These insincere peace negotiations from the palestinians have gotten exactly nowhere and this is the only solution I see that would work, even though there will be condemnations worldwide from liberals & muslims... but they've had their chance for many years now with a perfect 100% failure rate.

Islam teaches it is a grave and punishable moral sin to look outside of the Holy Quran for any truth. They are taught that the only truth in the world is taught from the Quran, the mosques and Islamic teachers- Imams..
Ask Jafar if science ,reality and/or history has ever proven the Quran to be wrong on anything and watch how he answers.
He damn sure will not give a simple and plain yes!!!--Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Oh, you mean Israel retreated from land they occupied after invading Egypt. Then withdrew from other illegally occupied land after walling off the Palestinians in little easily managed ghettos which they still invade and bomb on a regular basis.
Your map is ridiculous. Nobody with half a brain will believe that nonsense.

ok, hotshot--was that land reconquered or was it simply and erroneously
given back in bids to secure a lasting peace??
If you answer it was reconquered then list what wars and which battles regained it......
Man up , if you can.....-Tyr

[jafar00]

:clap::clap::clap:

This is a great post !

I don't know if all this would pan out quite as you describe it .. but I also can't really fault this, either. I like your thinking !

OK, I look forward to Jafar's response. IF he'll be inclined to give one.

I should have known you would approve of a post in support of Genocide or at very least, ethnic cleansing.

BTW, these Israelis you support were considered terrorists who killed a lot of Brits before they were handed someone else's homes to live in. Like the King David Hotel bombing that killed 91 people including 28 British citizens. That bomb was planted by Lehi, one of the Zionists terrorist groups.

Think about it. By supporting Israel, you are supporting terrorists who targeted and killed your fellow British citizens. :p

[NightTrain]

I should have known you would approve of a post in support of Genocide or at very least, ethnic cleansing.

BTW, these Israelis you support were considered terrorists who killed a lot of Brits before they were handed someone else's homes to live in. Like the King David Hotel bombing that killed 91 people including 28 British citizens. That bomb was planted by Lehi, one of the Zionists terrorist groups.

Think about it. By supporting Israel, you are supporting terrorists who targeted and killed your fellow British citizens. :p


That event occurred prior to Israel's founding.

Your argument is invalid.

[Gaffer]

I should have known you would approve of a post in support of Genocide or at very least, ethnic cleansing.

BTW, these Israelis you support were considered terrorists who killed a lot of Brits before they were handed someone else's homes to live in. Like the King David Hotel bombing that killed 91 people including 28 British citizens. That bomb was planted by Lehi, one of the Zionists terrorist groups.

Think about it. By supporting Israel, you are supporting terrorists who targeted and killed your fellow British citizens. :p

Says the morsi, brotherhood supporter. hamas is an arm of the brotherhood so naturally jafar supports it.

In every history of every group or country you have those that are fanatical. In the case of muslims the fanatical out number the rational.

[fj1200]

That event occurred prior to Israel's founding.

Your argument is invalid.

Why would that matter?

[jafar00]

That event occurred prior to Israel's founding.

Your argument is invalid.

Zionist terrorism began before the establishment of the terrorist state and was the aim of it. In this case, terrorism worked to further the goals of the terrorists to have a homeland purely for the chosen race.


In every history of every group or country you have those that are fanatical. In the case of muslims the fanatical out number the rational.

Ridiculous.

[Little-Acorn]

If you have to go back nearly 70 years to find something to bash Israel for, that pretty much shows they are cleaner than any other nation on Earth.


Today, if an angel were to somehow come down to Earth and touch all the so-called "Palestinians" on the shoulder, in sight of the Israelis, so that the "Palestinians" lost all hostile intent, threw away their weapons, and became genuinely and permanently peaceful and the Israelis knew it...

....then the Israelis would also stop all attacks against the "Palestinians" and likewise become genuinely and permanently peaceful to them.


But if a similar angel were to somehow come down to Earth and touch all the Israelis on the shoulder, in sight of the so-called "Palestinians", so that the Israelis lost all hostile intent, threw away their weapons, and became genuinely and permanently peaceful and the "Palestinians" knew it...

....then the militant "Palestinian" radicals would keep attacking and killing Israelis anyway.

That is the major difference between Israelis and so-called "Palestinians".

The Israelis genuinely want peace. But the "Palestinian" militants want to kill Jews.

[aboutime]

Zionist terrorism began before the establishment of the terrorist state and was the aim of it. In this case, terrorism worked to further the goals of the terrorists to have a homeland purely for the chosen race.



Ridiculous.

jafar. You should go back to your doctor, or sue your doctor. That Lobotomy isn't working, or making any of your repeated propaganda sound very smart.

Take a deep breath, then Wipe.

[Drummond]

Zionist terrorism began before the establishment of the terrorist state and was the aim of it. In this case, terrorism worked to further the goals of the terrorists to have a homeland purely for the chosen race.

I think you've been answered adequately already, Jafar.

I merely reflect on your great enthusiasm - which it seems you can't easily contain, if at all ! - for demonising Israel as a 'terrorist State'. Yet ... here we are, TODAY, with Gaza currently ruled by terrorists called Hamas.

Where is your comparable enthusiasm, Jafar, for demonising THEM ?

After all, you tell us you're no friend of terrorists. You claim, with questionable consistency, to see Hamas as terrorists, and to see SOME of their actions as un-Islamic.

So where's your willingness, comparably speaking, to commit yourself to attack-prose against Hamas ... as you do against the so-called 'terrorist State' of Israel ?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I think you've been answered adequately already, Jafar.

I merely reflect on your great enthusiasm - which it seems you can't easily contain, if at all ! - for demonising Israel as a 'terrorist State'. Yet ... here we are, TODAY, with Gaza currently ruled by terrorists called Hamas.

Where is your comparable enthusiasm, Jafar, for demonising THEM ?

After all, you tell us you're no friend of terrorists. You claim, with questionable consistency, to see Hamas as terrorists, and to see SOME of their actions as un-Islamic.

So where's your willingness, comparably speaking, to commit yourself to attack-prose against Hamas ... as you do against the so-called 'terrorist State' of Israel ?
Just take note how Jafar dodged my hard to answer post/ question and instead went on with that which he could at least attempt to spin.
My cold hard truth stopped him dead in his tracks. That is the power of undeniable and cold hard truth. That which makes ALL Muslims alive quake in their sandals and their body wrapped tents. -Tyr

[aboutime]

Just take note how Jafar dodged my hard to answer post/ question and instead went on with that which he could at least attempt to spin.
My cold hard truth stopped him dead in his tracks. That is the power of undeniable and cold hard truth. That which makes ALL Muslims alive quake in their sandals and their body wrapped tents. -Tyr


Tyr. jafar is convinced his propaganda machine excludes him from being honest about his love for Hamas.

[NightTrain]

Why would that matter?

It matters because Jafar is trying to prove that Israel supports and conducts terrorist bombings, but that event occurred prior to the Nation of Israel being founded by a couple of years.

[NightTrain]

Zionist terrorism began before the establishment of the terrorist state and was the aim of it.

Events that happened in the late 1940s that were hatched & executed by radicals operating on their own in no way reflects on the Nation of Israel since it didn't even exist at that point.


In this case, terrorism worked to further the goals of the terrorists to have a homeland purely for the chosen race.

Here's a Fun Fact : Jews are not a race. It's a religion.

I've met black people that are Jews. Are they a different race than Christian blacks?

I can't help but notice, Jafar, that you've neglected to answer my questions posed to you earlier in this thread or respond to my answers correcting your grievous errors in historical accuracy. Why is that?

[fj1200]

It matters because Jafar is trying to prove that Israel supports and conducts terrorist bombings, but that event occurred prior to the Nation of Israel being founded by a couple of years.

A couple of years isn't anything in making a logical point. Your logic would suggest that when the Palestinians are blessed with a State that the record is wiped clean.

[NightTrain]

A couple of years isn't anything in making a logical point. Your logic would suggest that when the Palestinians are blessed with a State that the record is wiped clean.

The point is that Israel does not condone terrorist activities, a point jafar has been thrashing awkwardly about trying to make.

I suggested no such thing. I firmly believe that the palestinians will never join civilized society because they're incapable of thinking for themselves, a defect jafar has repeatedly demonstrated - it seems to be a muslim mindset to forever hate Jews and to do so requires willful ignorance of facts, both modern day and historical to put their own special spin on things so they can sleep at night.

[fj1200]

The point is that Israel does not condone terrorist activities, a point jafar has been thrashing awkwardly about trying to make.

I suggested no such thing. I firmly believe that the palestinians will never join civilized society because they're incapable of thinking for themselves, a defect jafar has repeatedly demonstrated - it seems to be a muslim mindset to forever hate Jews and to do so requires willful ignorance of facts, both modern day and historical to put their own special spin on things so they can sleep at night.

It was a leap of logic not an actual suggestion of course. It's easy to not condone terrorist activities when you're the one in power. But I have little hope for peace because no one is laying the groundwork for peace.

[NightTrain]

It was a leap of logic not an actual suggestion of course. It's easy to not condone terrorist activities when you're the one in power. But I have little hope for peace because no one is laying the groundwork for peace.

The reason peace cannot be achieved is because neighboring countries are supplying and encouraging proxy attacks on Israel, goading them until retaliation occurs in the hope that Israel will get a black eye when a school gets blown up by an airstrike - such as the one just discovered to have 20 missiles stored in it.

That's why the area needs to be annexed and secured - the palestinians are pawns in this game and are easily manipulated by the puppeteers behind the scenes and the grey areas allow them to deny knowledge or responsibility. Nothing will change with the enemy within.

[fj1200]

The reason peace cannot be achieved is because neighboring countries are supplying and encouraging proxy attacks on Israel, goading them until retaliation occurs in the hope that Israel will get a black eye when a school gets blown up by an airstrike - such as the one just discovered to have 20 missiles stored in it.

That's why the area needs to be annexed and secured - the palestinians are pawns in this game and are easily manipulated by the puppeteers behind the scenes and the grey areas allow them to deny knowledge or responsibility. Nothing will change with the enemy within.

Of course, the totalitarian leadership of Hamas is being supplied. They have crappy leaders who have no interest in peace.

[NightTrain]

Of course, the totalitarian leadership of Hamas is being supplied. They have crappy leaders who have no interest in peace.

Absolutely.

Or, if one happens to rise through the ranks and gain power, he's quickly bought and paid for. That way the senseless provocations continue when desired and the peons carry out the orders as always.

I forget how many millions upon millions that Arafat had squirreled away in overseas banks when he finally croaked. It was sickening. He always had his hand out looking for charity for the "poor palestinians" but he was taking the lion's share and directed attacks while claiming no responsibility or knowledge. He played Clinton like a fiddle.

[fj1200]

Absolutely.

Or, if one happens to rise through the ranks and gain power, he's quickly bought and paid for. That way the senseless provocations continue when desired and the peons carry out the orders as always.

I forget how many millions upon millions that Arafat had squirreled away in overseas banks when he finally croaked. It was sickening. He always had his hand out looking for charity for the "poor palestinians" but he was taking the lion's share and directed attacks while claiming no responsibility or knowledge. He played Clinton like a fiddle.

It's going to take someone who will invest the political capital to move the window (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window). I'm not holding out much hope.

[NightTrain]

It's going to take someone who will invest the political capital to move the window (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window). I'm not holding out much hope.

It will take another Arab of Anwar Sadat's caliber. He did what needed to be done to achieve peace and was assassinated for it - it took another ass kicking by Israel, but he was one of the few that was smart enough to realize that Israel is there to stay and peace was the way. The weird part was that his popularity was very high, even after making peace with Israel and formally recognizing her, but of course the jihad element and rest of the ME went batshit insane over it. They even kicked Egypt out of the Arab League over it until 1989.

The palestinian version will surely be killed, too, it'll only be a matter of time IMO, but maybe he'll be able to accomplish something before he's rubbed out.

Any Arab seen as a peacemaker with Israel is automatically targeted for killing, especially those in seats of power.

Keeping the existing conflict going serves to distract the peasants in neighboring countries of their own miserable existence as the rulers enjoy gold-plated bathroom fixtures and private jets. It's in their best interests to fan the flames against Israel lest the peasants realize they're being screwed and revolt.

[fj1200]

It will take another Arab of Anwar Sadat's caliber. He did what needed to be done to achieve peace and was assassinated for it - it took another ass kicking by Israel, but he was one of the few that was smart enough to realize that Israel is there to stay and peace was the way. The weird part was that his popularity was very high, even after making peace with Israel and formally recognizing her, but of course the jihad element and rest of the ME went batshit insane over it. They even kicked Egypt out of the Arab League over it until 1989.

The palestinian version will surely be killed, too, it'll only be a matter of time IMO, but maybe he'll be able to accomplish something before he's rubbed out.

Any Arab seen as a peacemaker with Israel is automatically targeted for killing, especially those in seats of power.

Keeping the existing conflict going serves to distract the peasants in neighboring countries of their own miserable existence as the rulers enjoy gold-plated bathroom fixtures and private jets. It's in their best interests to fan the flames against Israel lest the peasants realize they're being screwed and revolt.

Bam! What I've been saying all along... ;) just no so eloquently. And an excellent post to boot.