DIA Chief: White House Will Whitewash Jihadist Threat 'Over My Dead Body'

[jimnyc]

I think most know my stance by now. No way are they done and on the run. Likely rebuilding, and they won't give up until the last man is dead. They are hoping we grow tired, give up, consider them done. As shown before many times, Al Qaeda is willing to wait patiently.


The Obama administration triggered a firestorm of angry reaction when it produced a draft 2012 National Intelligence Estimate concluding that al-Qaida no longer constituted a direct threat to the United States, according to a report published by The Daily Beast.

That classified assessment was broadly consistent with President Obama’s statements on the campaign trail, as he won re-election by pointing to the assassination of Osama bin Laden and claiming that al-Qaida was on the run.

But senior U.S. intelligence officials, including Defense Intelligence Agency Director Gen. Michael Flynn, vigorously objected to that claim and won a partial victory by securing removal of the judgment on al-Qaida.

“Flynn and others at the time made it clear they would not go along with that kind of assessment,” a U.S. intelligence officer who worked on the al-Qaida file told The Daily Beast’s Eli Lake. “It was basically: ‘Over my dead body.’ ”

Press reports said that Flynn, who announced his retirement last month, was forced to depart because of numerous policy disagreements with the Obama administration.

But Flynn and his colleagues were successful in getting the administration to soften its tone.

In his 2012 State of the Union address, Obama declared that “al-Qaida operatives who remain are scrambling, knowing that they can’t escape the reach of the United States of America.”

But since then, the terrorist group has appeared to be thriving across the Islamic world. In the past two years, it has established safe havens in Iraq, Libya and Syria and carried out scores of lethal, high-profile attacks there and nations such as Afghanistan, Algeria, Egypt, Kenya, Lebanon, Nigeria and Pakistan.

The White House backed down from its upbeat assessment and conceded that al-Qaida remained a serious threat.

Earlier this week, FBI Director James Comey, who took office last year, admitted that he had underestimated the danger posed by al-Qaida affiliates.

"I didn’t have anywhere near the appreciation I got after I came into this job just how virulent those affiliates had become," he told The New York Times, saying that al-Qaida-linked groups in the Middle East and Africa are a greater threat than he had been led to believe.

http://www.newsmaxworld.com/GlobalTalk/US-terrorism-DIA/2014/05/22/id/572827/

[jafar00]

He was right. AQ doesn't pose a threat to the USA. They pose a threat to Muslims in other countries.

[NightTrain]

He was right. AQ doesn't pose a threat to the USA. They pose a threat to Muslims in other countries.


They are a very real threat.

Only an appallingly ignorant liberal would even think such a thing, let alone say it publicly.

I'm curious as to why you, Jafar, would agree with such a statement.

[jafar00]

They are a very real threat.

Only an appallingly ignorant liberal would even think such a thing, let alone say it publicly.

I'm curious as to why you, Jafar, would agree with such a statement.

Ask yourself how many times AQ has attacked the USA in the last 10 years.

Now ask yourself how many times AQ has attacked Muslims in the last 10 years.

Compare the two answers, and the reality will become clearer.

[aboutime]

Ask yourself how many times AQ has attacked the USA in the last 10 years.

Now ask yourself how many times AQ has attacked Muslims in the last 10 years.

Compare the two answers, and the reality will become clearer.


jafar. No need to ask how many times. Seems they have already taken control of the White House occupant who seems much like you. Endorsing Hamas, and The Muslim Brotherhood tactics designed to overthrow an entire nation. ONE LIBERAL IDIOT at a time.

[jafar00]

jafar. No need to ask how many times. Seems they have already taken control of the White House occupant who seems much like you. Endorsing Hamas, and The Muslim Brotherhood tactics designed to overthrow an entire nation. ONE LIBERAL IDIOT at a time.

Funny me. And I thought hamas, AQ and MB were different things....

[Drummond]

Ask yourself how many times AQ has attacked the USA in the last 10 years.

Now ask yourself how many times AQ has attacked Muslims in the last 10 years.

Compare the two answers, and the reality will become clearer.

It's your assertion, is it, Jafar, that Homeland Security and other intelligence agencies have been doing NOTHING, have achieved NOTHING, have had NO impact at all, since 2001 ?

Try asking this question, instead: what was Al Qaeda's biggest, worst, single attack this century, against what country (hint: try 11th September 2001) ?

[aboutime]

Funny me. And I thought hamas, AQ and MB were different things....

jafar. Based on all of your past propaganda attempts here. To you...there are no differences. You support is DULY Noted.

[Drummond]

Funny me. And I thought hamas, AQ and MB were different things....

Indeed ? Yes, funny ... I thought they were all Muslim terrorists.

Besides, Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood are only superficially 'different'. Hamas is AN OFFSHOOT OF THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/adl/hamas/introduction.html


HAMAS, the Arabic acronym of the Islamic Resistance Movement in Palestine, officially came into being in August of 1988. Founded as an alternative to the secular Palestine Liberation Organization, HAMAS offers its activists the total rejection of Israel together with absolute salvation.

The acronym HAMAS, taken from the Arabic Harakat al-Muqawama al-lslamiya - Islamic Resistance Movement, literally denotes "zeal" or "enthusiasm." The HAMAS Covenant, however, interprets its name to mean "strength and bravery."

HAMAS is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood movement, which was founded in Egypt in 1928 by Sheik Hasan al-Bana; and subsequently spread throughout the Arab world. The Brotherhood shares with HAMAS a complete rejection of Western values and Communism and calls for the establishment of a pan-Islamic state founded on the basis of shari'a, or Islamic law.

[Drummond]

He was right. AQ doesn't pose a threat to the USA. They pose a threat to Muslims in other countries.

I wonder how many Americans - to the extent they would've cared about Al Qaeda, at all - would have considered them any sort of threat to America if they'd considered such a question on, say, September 10th, 2001 ?

Here we have a Muslim preaching complacency to Americans. Such complacency, until Al Qaeda and its ilk are utterly smashed, could never be warranted.

[jafar00]

I wonder how many Americans - to the extent they would've cared about Al Qaeda, at all - would have considered them any sort of threat to America if they'd considered such a question on, say, September 10th, 2001 ?

Here we have a Muslim preaching complacency to Americans. Such complacency, until Al Qaeda and its ilk are utterly smashed, could never be warranted.

If you look at incidents since 2001, Americans have more to worry about psychotic maniacs of their own with guns going on rampages than another AQ attack.

I believe 9/11 was an inside job anyway. There is no way AQ could have acted alone to pull it off.

[Drummond]

If you look at incidents since 2001, Americans have more to worry about psychotic maniacs of their own with guns going on rampages than another AQ attack.

I believe 9/11 was an inside job anyway. There is no way AQ could have acted alone to pull it off.

Oh, so, now you're trying to push the blame for 9/11 away from Al Qaeda, to say they don't deserve to take full responsibility for 9/11 !!! 'Congratulations' on your effort to foist some blame on the country which fell VICTIM TO ISLAMIC TERRORISM on that day.

What's next, from your sanitising agenda ? A piece telling us what saints Hamas 'are' .. ????

Do any of us have any idea of the full range of activity that the intelligence agencies have been involved with over the past 13 years, to keep us in the West as safe as possible ? If they'd done nothing at all, my belief, Jafar, is that you'd have been totally unable to advance the case you're trying to go with.

[jafar00]

Oh, so, now you're trying to push the blame for 9/11 away from Al Qaeda, to say they don't deserve to take full responsibility for 9/11 !!! 'Congratulations' on your effort to foist some blame on the country which fell VICTIM TO ISLAMIC TERRORISM on that day.

What's next, from your sanitising agenda ? A piece telling us what saints Hamas 'are' .. ????

Do any of us have any idea of the full range of activity that the intelligence agencies have been involved with over the past 13 years, to keep us in the West as safe as possible ? If they'd done nothing at all, my belief, Jafar, is that you'd have been totally unable to advance the case you're trying to go with.

Islamic terrorism? What exactly is Islamic about terrorism? Educate us :p

[Drummond]

Islamic terrorism? What exactly is Islamic about terrorism? Educate us :p

... Sorry ... now, you want me to post links to Jihadist websites here ??

But I have no need to answer you directly other than to just refer you to the Hamas Charter, and remind you once more of the terrorist savagery THEY enjoy. Hamas (who are, after all, an offshoot of THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD) consider themselves not 'merely' Islamic, but standard-bearers for the expectations Islam has of Muslims. And they are very clear indeed that they regard their terrorist acts as religiously sanctionable.

Do you want me to offer a link - YET AGAIN - to the Hamas Charter ?

How's that unequivocal condemnation of Hamas coming along, Jafar ? Will we see it from you anytime soon ?:p

[aboutime]

... Sorry ... now, you want me to post links to Jihadist websites here ??

But I have no need to answer you directly other than to just refer you to the Hamas Charter, and remind you once more of the terrorist savagery THEY enjoy. Hamas (who are, after all, an offshoot of THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD) consider themselves not 'merely' Islamic, but standard-bearers for the expectations Islam has of Muslims. And they are very clear indeed that they regard their terrorist acts as religiously sanctionable.

Do you want me to offer a link - YET AGAIN - to the Hamas Charter ?

How's that unequivocal condemnation of Hamas coming along, Jafar ? Will we see it from you anytime soon ?:p

Sir Drummond. jafar has been trying to pass his endless propaganda to us as viable, instructional material he believes...all of us will instantly fall for, and believe.

jafar is just a lonely, miserable, deceitful person like our president. Pretending to appease, and love everyone by extending his hand...like Hamas pretends to want Peace. But, in jafar's other hand...there is the weapon. Hidden to strike when everyone falls for the PORK propaganda machine..laced with poisonous hatred.

[jafar00]

... Sorry ... now, you want me to post links to Jihadist websites here ??


Go ahead, but that's not going to be enough.

You need to present evidence from Islam to back it up. Tell me how terrorism is in any way Islamic. Before you post a link to something bad done by someone with brown skin and say it's Islamic because he happened to be Muslim. Give it to me in black and white.

Convince me that terrorism is Islamic and I'll go out and blow myself up to be a good Muslim.

[fj1200]

It's your assertion, is it, Jafar, that Homeland Security and other intelligence agencies have been doing NOTHING, have achieved NOTHING, have had NO impact at all, since 2001 ?

Try asking this question, instead: what was Al Qaeda's biggest, worst, single attack this century, against what country (hint: try 11th September 2001) ?

You ask dumb questions. What gross expansion of the state over the individual isn't justified by 9/11?

[aboutime]

Go ahead, but that's not going to be enough.

You need to present evidence from Islam to back it up. Tell me how terrorism is in any way Islamic. Before you post a link to something bad done by someone with brown skin and say it's Islamic because he happened to be Muslim. Give it to me in black and white.

Convince me that terrorism is Islamic and I'll go out and blow myself up to be a good Muslim.


jafar. Back up your words with actions. Remember. You only get to test the Explosive Belt ONCE!

[Drummond]

Convince me that terrorism is Islamic and I'll go out and blow myself up to be a good Muslim.
That's a definite offer, is it, Jafar ? Whoops .... :blowup:


Go ahead, but that's not going to be enough.

You're inviting me to post links to Jihadist websites here ????


You need to present evidence from Islam to back it up. Tell me how terrorism is in any way Islamic. Before you post a link to something bad done by someone with brown skin and say it's Islamic because he happened to be Muslim. Give it to me in black and white.

Well, I make no comment about whether Hamas types have 'brown skin'. The only issue relevant to Hamas is what they do, and how they justify it.

Hamas are very clear about their position. They say they're Islamic, and they present their devotion to Jihadist violence as acts taken in loyalty to their religion.

But ... don't take my word for it .... here are some quotes from their Charter ..

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818.htm


"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors."

They're just getting warmed up, Jafar.


O, people!

In the midst of misadventure, from the depth of suffering, from the believing hearts and purified arms; aware of our duty and in response to the decree of Allah, we direct our call, we rally together and join each other. We educate in the path of Allah and we make our firm determination prevail so as to take its proper role in life, to overcome all difficulties and to cross all hurdles. Hence our permanent state of preparedness and our readiness to sacrifice our souls and dearest [possessions] in the path of Allah.

When the thought matured, the seed grew and the plant took root in the land of reality, detached from temporary emotion and unwelcome haste, the Islamic Resistance Movement erupted in order to play its role in the path of its Lord. In so doing, it joined its hands with those of all Jihad fighters for the purpose of liberating Palestine. The souls of its Jihad fighters will encounter those of all Jihad fighters who have sacrificed their lives in the land of Palestine since it was conquered by the Companion of the Prophet, be Allah's prayer and peace upon him, and until this very day. This is the Charter of the Islamic Resistance (Hamas) which will reveal its face, unveil its identity, state its position, clarify its purpose, discuss its hopes, call for support to its cause and reinforcement, and for joining its ranks. For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah's victory prevails.

See that, Jafar ? Hamas consider their acts of Jihadist violence to be in the furtherance of what they're aiming for .. ALLAH'S VICTORY.

Do you not think there's just a teensiest bit of a suggestion of Islamic identification going on there, Jafar ?

Continuing ...


"Allah has decreed: Lo! I very shall conquer, I and my messengers, lo! Allah is strong, almighty." Sura 58 (Al-Mujadilah), verse 21(10).

Hamas, in their Charter, quote that Sura verse to JUSTIFY THEMSELVES.

Continuing ... here's where Hamas spell it out even MORE candidly ... they don't muck about, this is straight into Article One, yes, the very FIRST of them ...


The Islamic Resistance Movement draws its guidelines from Islam; derives from it its thinking, interpretations and views about existence, life and humanity; refers back to it for its conduct; and is inspired by it in whatever step it takes.

Are they liars, Jafar ?


The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of the Muslim Brothers in Palestine. The Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a world organization, the largest Islamic Movement in the modern era. It is characterized by a profound understanding, by precise notions and by a complete comprehensiveness of all concepts of Islam in all domains of life: views and beliefs, politics and economics, education and society, jurisprudence and rule, indoctrination and teaching, the arts and publications, the hidden and the evident, and all the other domains of life.

... except, of course, Jafar, you'd have to deny ALL of this to maintain your 'religion of peace' fiction .. CONSIDERING ALL THE ACTS OF TERRORISM THAT THEY COMMIT.

Are you issuing such a denial, Jafar ? Again ... ARE HAMAS LIARS ?


The basic structure of the Islamic Resistance Movement consists of Muslims who are devoted to Allah and worship Him verily [as it is written]: 'I have created Man and Devil for the purpose of their worship" [of Allah]. Those Muslims are cognizant of their duty towards themselves, their families and country and they have been relying on Allah for all that.

They have raised the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors in order to extricate the country and the people from the [oppressors'] desecration, filth and evil. "Nay, but we hurl the true against the false; and it does break its head and lo! it vanishes" Sura 21 (the Prophets), verse 18

Hamas, you see, just don't allow for misinterpretation of their worldview. They are convinced, and THEY PREACH ACCORDINGLY IN THEIR CHARTER, that their Jihad is in the service of Islam, undertaken as a religious duty. They quote Islamic verses to illustrate their case !!

And we know what they do in order to fight that Jihad, do we not ? THEY MURDER AND MAIM, FIRING ROCKETS AT ISRAEL, STRAPPING BOMBS ON TO CHILDREN, TO KILL AND KILL AGAIN.


The Movement welcomes all Muslims who share its beliefs and thinking, commit themselves to its course of action, keep its secrets and aspire to join its ranks in order to carry out their duty. Allah will reward them.

Jafar, I think my case is well and truly made.

So, then, over to you. You have a choice, Jafar. Either admit I'm right, that terrorism finds its inspiration from Islam ... AS HAMAS NOT ONLY DO, BUT PROFESS TO DO ... or, resolve to so distance yourself from Hamas and all they stand for that you can never again find any way of defending anything about them AT ALL.

You, as a professed man of peace, committed to what YOU say is a 'religion of peace', surely HAVE to turn totally and completely against Hamas. You see it for yourself ... they turn to Islam for inspiration in all they do, AND, they expect OTHER Muslims to do likewise.

So tell me, Jafar. HOW CAN THEY ?

To you .. if your assertions are genuine ... you must surely be offended on two fronts. One, that Hamas commit the savageries that they do. And two, that they use Islam as justification, even saying that Allah will reward them !!!

You should be massively offended at that. Yes ? So much so that to ever support them to ANY degree was unthinkable.

SO WHAT SAY YOU, JAFAR ? ARE HAMAS RIGHT OR WRONG ? ARE THEY LIARS ? DO THEY, IN THE FACE OF THIS, DESERVE ANY ISLAMIC SUPPORT ?

AND IF SO, HOW AND WHY DO THEY ???

[Drummond]

What gross expansion of the state over the individual isn't justified by 9/11?

Most curious. For one thing, this train of thinking, unbidden in this thread, is a product of YOUR mind, FJ.

For another ... you ask a question that - surely - only a Left-winger would need to have answered !!

SO .. DO YOU NEED ME TO ANSWER IT, FJ ?

[fj1200]

Most curious. For one thing, this train of thinking, unbidden in this thread, is a product of YOUR mind, FJ.

For another ... you ask a question that - surely - only a Left-winger would need to have answered !!

SO .. DO YOU NEED ME TO ANSWER IT, FJ ?

The question was rhetorical. There is almost no expansion of state power that you don't justify with 9/11. The fact that you didn't bother to offer one is proof.

[Drummond]

The question was rhetorical. There is almost no expansion of state power that you don't justify with 9/11. The fact that you didn't bother to offer one is proof.

Now you're switching contexts. I dealt with your post in a particular way, addressing the pertinent issue involved. You choose to take another tack.

Moreover, you seem to be making some sort of accusation. The onus is clearly on YOU to back it up.

[fj1200]

Now you're switching contexts. I dealt with your post in a particular way, addressing the pertinent issue involved. You choose to take another tack.

Moreover, you seem to be making some sort of accusation. The onus is clearly on YOU to back it up.

The context is you're a big-government hack who uses the war on terror to justify gross expansions of state power. Oh, and you use dumb questions to put your own argument into Jafar's mouth.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

He was right. AQ doesn't pose a threat to the USA. They pose a threat to Muslims in other countries.

AQ is just one tentacle, the real threat is Islam!!!!!

It is Islam that will one day have to be utterly destroyed!!
That is --if we are to survive, America is fast asleep now and your pals are feeding it more damn sleeping pills.
When that is stopped and enough hurt has been beaten on us watch out for the mutherhumping ass kickin' delivered with vengeance like the damn world has never witness before .
As bible predicts one day Damascus was there , next day it was no more!!

Sho' sounds like a big ass nuke delivered to me. And one of the sand nations just got a damn huge free glass PARKING LOT COURTESY OF U.S. MILITARY...
I hope to be around to visit that future tourist spot someday!! - :laugh:
Yes, I am a mean ass vengeful SOB ,
should have seen me full steam when a younger man!! = ;)--Tyr

[Drummond]

The context is you're a big-government hack who uses the war on terror to justify gross expansions of state power. Oh, and you use dumb questions to put your own argument into Jafar's mouth.
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

It's the way you tell 'em, FJ ...

Here's where you try to hijack the thread in earnest, eh, FJ, steering it ever further away from its origins ? NO .. the context of this thread is not ...


you're a big-government hack who uses the war on terror to justify gross expansions of state power

... this originating from YOUR efforts to change the direction and purpose of the thread, to personalise it, to start yet another fight with me, and with an invention of yours, to boot !

No, let me remind you of what this thread is really meant to be about. The thread title is ....

DIA Chief: White House Will Whitewash Jihadist Threat 'Over My Dead Body'

We've discussed your focus-issues before, have we not ? Try to stay on subject, this time, my son ... :laugh:

[jafar00]

[/COLOR]That's a definite offer, is it, Jafar ? Whoops .... :blowup:



You're inviting me to post links to Jihadist websites here ????



Well, I make no comment about whether Hamas types have 'brown skin'. The only issue relevant to Hamas is what they do, and how they justify it.

Hamas are very clear about their position. They say they're Islamic, and they present their devotion to Jihadist violence as acts taken in loyalty to their religion.

But ... don't take my word for it .... here are some quotes from their Charter ..

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818.htm



They're just getting warmed up, Jafar.



See that, Jafar ? Hamas consider their acts of Jihadist violence to be in the furtherance of what they're aiming for .. ALLAH'S VICTORY.

Do you not think there's just a teensiest bit of a suggestion of Islamic identification going on there, Jafar ?

Continuing ...



Hamas, in their Charter, quote that Sura verse to JUSTIFY THEMSELVES.

Continuing ... here's where Hamas spell it out even MORE candidly ... they don't muck about, this is straight into Article One, yes, the very FIRST of them ...



Are they liars, Jafar ?



... except, of course, Jafar, you'd have to deny ALL of this to maintain your 'religion of peace' fiction .. CONSIDERING ALL THE ACTS OF TERRORISM THAT THEY COMMIT.

Are you issuing such a denial, Jafar ? Again ... ARE HAMAS LIARS ?



Hamas, you see, just don't allow for misinterpretation of their worldview. They are convinced, and THEY PREACH ACCORDINGLY IN THEIR CHARTER, that their Jihad is in the service of Islam, undertaken as a religious duty. They quote Islamic verses to illustrate their case !!

And we know what they do in order to fight that Jihad, do we not ? THEY MURDER AND MAIM, FIRING ROCKETS AT ISRAEL, STRAPPING BOMBS ON TO CHILDREN, TO KILL AND KILL AGAIN.



Jafar, I think my case is well and truly made.

So, then, over to you. You have a choice, Jafar. Either admit I'm right, that terrorism finds its inspiration from Islam ... AS HAMAS NOT ONLY DO, BUT PROFESS TO DO ... or, resolve to so distance yourself from Hamas and all they stand for that you can never again find any way of defending anything about them AT ALL.

You, as a professed man of peace, committed to what YOU say is a 'religion of peace', surely HAVE to turn totally and completely against Hamas. You see it for yourself ... they turn to Islam for inspiration in all they do, AND, they expect OTHER Muslims to do likewise.

So tell me, Jafar. HOW CAN THEY ?

To you .. if your assertions are genuine ... you must surely be offended on two fronts. One, that Hamas commit the savageries that they do. And two, that they use Islam as justification, even saying that Allah will reward them !!!

You should be massively offended at that. Yes ? So much so that to ever support them to ANY degree was unthinkable.

SO WHAT SAY YOU, JAFAR ? ARE HAMAS RIGHT OR WRONG ? ARE THEY LIARS ? DO THEY, IN THE FACE OF THIS, DESERVE ANY ISLAMIC SUPPORT ?

AND IF SO, HOW AND WHY DO THEY ???

There you go with the Hamas obsession again.

All you have provided is Hamas's opinion. Nothing from Islam to support terrorism.

[NightTrain]

Ask yourself how many times AQ has attacked the USA in the last 10 years.

Now ask yourself how many times AQ has attacked Muslims in the last 10 years.

Compare the two answers, and the reality will become clearer.

The reason they haven't been attacking American targets as much as they attack their fellow muzzies is because we're killing them as we find them and they're on the defensive.

I'm sure you'd approve of the USA letting our guard down, but show me a case of appeasement that worked with muslims.

That's right. You can't.

So we'll continue to blow the animals up as we can.

[NightTrain]

There you go with the Hamas obsession again.

All you have provided is Hamas's opinion. Nothing from Islam to support terrorism.

Clearly you're missing something.

Any rational, informed and honest person in the world today would say that islam is the world's biggest problem.

I really don't give a damn about what you think islam is really about.

The results of your culture are readily apparent to anyone looking at events all over the world. Millions of you clamoring for blood, sawing people's heads off, stoning women to death, strapping dynamite vests on kids and sending them into crowded public areas, etc etc etc.

You people spread hatred and misery wherever you people gain a foothold, or God forbid, take over another country to install another barbaric islamic government.

And you're doing your part with your Taqiyya, but you're not fooling anyone.

[aboutime]

Clearly you're missing something.

Any rational, informed and honest person in the world today would say that islam is the world's biggest problem.

I really don't give a damn about what you think islam is really about.

The results of your culture are readily apparent to anyone looking at events all over the world. Millions of you clamoring for blood, sawing people's heads off, stoning women to death, strapping dynamite vests on kids and sending them into crowded public areas, etc etc etc.

You people spread hatred and misery wherever you people gain a foothold, or God forbid, take over another country to install another barbaric islamic government.

And you're doing your part with your Taqiyya, but you're not fooling anyone.

Poor jafar. Always finding ways to use the http://icansayit.com/images/defense1.jpg

[Drummond]

There you go with the Hamas obsession again.

All you have provided is Hamas's opinion. Nothing from Islam to support terrorism.

You missed (very conveniently) the verses quoted in the Hamas Charter which they use to help prop up their hate message ? Amazing.

In any case, it's more than that. Hamas promote themselves as standard-bearers for Islamic conduct. And .. THEY ARE TERRORISTS.

Being dismissive of my so-called 'Hamas obsession' doesn't help you. Fact is that Hamas are a product of Islamic thinking, they SAY they are, they PROVE it in their Charter's wording ... and YOU ARE SUPPORTIVE of Hamas.

I see you dodged my challenge to distance yourself from Hamas, Jafar. You keep doing this -- don't you ?

[fj1200]

Here's where you try to hijack the thread in earnest, eh, FJ, steering it ever further away from its origins ? NO .. the context of this thread is not ...

... this originating from YOUR efforts to change the direction and purpose of the thread, to personalise it, to start yet another fight with me, and with an invention of yours, to boot !

...son ...

Son? Save it. My dad isn't a fool like you. :slap: Besides, I'm surprised that you're complaining about a thread being hijacked, you hijack threads every time you have nothing constructive to say and have to bring up Hamas again; quite the trolling behavior from you. The particular point of this thread was played out mid-way through the first page. We shouldn't whitewash the jihadist threat but now we have yet another thread where it's proclaimed that Islam be "utterly destroyed." :rolleyes:

So you may now begin again your big-government hackery unless you again need me to point out your desires to grant the state ever more power.

[aboutime]

Son? Save it. My dad isn't a fool like you. :slap: Besides, I'm surprised that you're complaining about a thread being hijacked, you hijack threads every time you have nothing constructive to say and have to bring up Hamas again; quite the trolling behavior from you. The particular point of this thread was played out mid-way through the first page. We shouldn't whitewash the jihadist threat but now we have yet another thread where it's proclaimed that Islam be "utterly destroyed." :rolleyes:

So you may now begin again your big-government hackery unless you again need me to point out your desires to grant the state ever more power.

fj. I really enjoy your misery being demonstrated when you accuse everyone of EMULATING, and trying to COPY your techniques of distraction. Like the typically uninformed liberal you are. You instantly resort to the DNC talking points manual that instructs you to REVERSE all attention directed at you...like a mirror, and point it toward others who USE YOUR TACTICS.
It never grows old. But is just STUPID of you.

[Drummond]

We shouldn't whitewash the jihadist threat but ....

And yet .. you object to my answering Jafar in illustrating Hamas's own Jihadist nature .. proving in the process that they draw on Islam for their inspiration and justification.

Hamas sprang from the Muslim Brotherhood, which has various links with groups of that sort. So connections with them have wide significance.

As for .... >>


So you may now begin again your big-government hackery unless you again need me to point out your desires to grant the state ever more power.

Oh, I 'may', may I ??

And to think you suggested I was trolling ! Here you are, trying AGAIN to persist with thread derailment.

Tut tut.

Well .. I shall decline your invitation to assist you with your trolling, FJ.

:trolls::trolls::trolls::trolls:

[fj1200]

And yet .. you object...

I don't object, I just point out you ask stupid questions. Troll away with more Hamas interjections. :shrug:


Oh, I 'may', may I ??

Of course, and it's clear that you will. Run along now, your desire for increased state powers is not yet sated.

[Drummond]

I don't object, I just point out you ask stupid questions.

You objected sufficiently strongly to characterise your objection as 'trolling'.


Of course, and it's clear that you will. Run along now, your desire for increased state powers is not yet sated.

Are you of the belief that if you state something often enough, just the frequency of expressed untruth converts it into truth ?

It would appear so.

I regard that as evidence of Left-wing thinking from you, since this is a known Left-wing tactic.

Still ....

:trolls::trolls::trolls::trolls::trolls:

Bye bye ...

[fj1200]

Are you of the belief that if you state something often enough...

No, it's repeatedly pointing out your big-government hackery which makes it true. Me proving my posit is quite the opposite of you failing to prove out your leftie fetish but yet you troll away with that myth.


Bye bye ...

As I said, run along.

[aboutime]

No, it's repeatedly pointing out your big-government hackery which makes it true. Me proving my posit is quite the opposite of you failing to prove out your leftie fetish but yet you troll away with that myth.



As I said, run along.


Thanks once again for proving this fj...You are incomplete in your own mind unless...

you get the .. http://icansayit.com/images/lastword.jpg

[jafar00]

Clearly you're missing something.

Any rational, informed and honest person in the world today would say that islam is the world's biggest problem.

I really don't give a damn about what you think islam is really about.

The results of your culture are readily apparent to anyone looking at events all over the world. Millions of you clamoring for blood, sawing people's heads off, stoning women to death, strapping dynamite vests on kids and sending them into crowded public areas, etc etc etc.

You people spread hatred and misery wherever you people gain a foothold, or God forbid, take over another country to install another barbaric islamic government.

And you're doing your part with your Taqiyya, but you're not fooling anyone.

Millions of us? If that were true, the death toll would be in the billions. You are being ridiculous now.


You missed (very conveniently) the verses quoted in the Hamas Charter which they use to help prop up their hate message ? Amazing.

In any case, it's more than that. Hamas promote themselves as standard-bearers for Islamic conduct. And .. THEY ARE TERRORISTS.

Being dismissive of my so-called 'Hamas obsession' doesn't help you. Fact is that Hamas are a product of Islamic thinking, they SAY they are, they PROVE it in their Charter's wording ... and YOU ARE SUPPORTIVE of Hamas.

I see you dodged my challenge to distance yourself from Hamas, Jafar. You keep doing this -- don't you ?

I've said my bit about Hamas before. If you continue to ignore what I say, I'll just ignore your constant trolling about them. You have your mind made up about me no matter what I say.

Nonetheless, Hamas's charter is not evidence from Islam to support terrorism. The ball is still in your court.

Prove to me that Islam supports terrorism. I'm waiting.

[jimnyc]

I've said my bit about Hamas before. If you continue to ignore what I say, I'll just ignore your constant trolling about them. You have your mind made up about me no matter what I say.

Nonetheless, Hamas's charter is not evidence from Islam to support terrorism. The ball is still in your court.

Prove to me that Islam supports terrorism. I'm waiting.

But their charter IS evidence of THEM being terrorists. And you support them to an extent, even if "just their cause". As do millions over other Muslims, if not more, since the enemy is Jewish folks. So yeah, Islam IS supporting terrorism by supporting and acknowledging and speaking with and allowing Hamas to have such a role.

[aboutime]

Millions of us? If that were true, the death toll would be in the billions. You are being ridiculous now.



I've said my bit about Hamas before. If you continue to ignore what I say, I'll just ignore your constant trolling about them. You have your mind made up about me no matter what I say.

Nonetheless, Hamas's charter is not evidence from Islam to support terrorism. The ball is still in your court.

Prove to me that Islam supports terrorism. I'm waiting.





jafar. Have you ever heard of "The 12 Step Program"?

In your case. Each, and every one of those 12 steps are "DENIAL".

[Drummond]

Millions of us? If that were true, the death toll would be in the billions. You are being ridiculous now.

Are you claiming from these figures that each and every Muslim would kill a thousand people ??

Jafar, that's a bit enthusiastic of them, wouldn't you say ?


I've said my bit about Hamas before. If you continue to ignore what I say, I'll just ignore your constant trolling about them. You have your mind made up about me no matter what I say.

Nonetheless, Hamas's charter is not evidence from Islam to support terrorism. The ball is still in your court.

Prove to me that Islam supports terrorism. I'm waiting.

Well, Jafar, I don't understand WHY you're waiting ! Haven't I already covered this ground ?

You say that Hamas's Charter isn't 'evidence from Islam to support terrorism'. Well, considering that earlier in this thread, I quoted from their Charter, showing that the Charter produces Suras which they present as the basis for what they're committed to doing (!!) .. I really fail to see your difficulty in getting all this !

[... actually, of course, that can't be true ... we both know hell would freeze over before you'd admit you were wrong ...]

I'll try AGAIN, THEN. But for those who wonder what a 'Sura' is, and its standing in Islam, see ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sura


A sura (also spelled surah, surat; Arabic: سورة‎ sūrah, pl. سور suwar) is a chapter of the Qur'an. There are 114 chapters of the Qur'an, each divided into verses. The chapters or suras are of unequal length, the shortest chapter (Al-Kawthar) has only three ayat (verses) while the longest (Al-Baqara) contains 286 verses. Of the 114 chapters in the Quran, 86 are classified as Meccan while 28 are Medinan - this classification is only approximate in regard to location of revelation - in fact, any chapter revealed after migration of Muhammad to Medina (Hijrah) is termed Medinan and any revealed before that event is termed as Meccan. The Meccan chapters generally deal with faith and scenes of the Hereafter, while the Medinan chapters are more concerned with organizing the social life of the (then) nascent Muslim community. Except sura At-Tawba, all chapters or suras commence with 'In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate'. This formula is known as the basmala and denotes the boundaries between chapters. The chapters are arranged roughly in order of descending size therefore the arrangement of the Qur'an is neither chronological nor thematic. Suras (chapters) are recited during the standing portions (Qiyam) of Muslim prayers.

... OK. We see from the above that it really doesn't get any more 'bog-standard Islam' than to concern oneself with Suras.

This, Hamas certainly does !!

So, to quote from the Hamas Charter .... are you sitting comfortably, Jafar ?


""Allah has decreed: Lo! I verily shall conquer, I and my messengers. Lo! Allah is strong, Almighty." Sura LVIII (Al-Mujadilah), verse 21.

Not overflowing with the milk of human kindness, eh, Jafar ? Remember ... Hamas interpret this as part of a basis for terrorist justification.

Here's something interesting from the Charter, which says:


Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security. Safety and security can only prevail under the shadow of Islam, and recent and ancient history is the best witness to that effect. The members of other religions must desist from struggling against Islam over sovereignty in this region. For if they were to gain the upper hand, fighting, torture and uprooting would follow; they would be fed up with each other, to say nothing of members of other religions. The past and the present are full of evidence to that effect.

I take all this to mean that Hamas insist upon Islam's supremacy in order to guarantee - as they perceive it - relative coexistence with the other religions (.... because, according to you, as terrorists, they CANNOT be Islamic !!!) ... Agreed ?

So, they follow this up with the following Sura ...


"They will not fight you in body safe in fortified villages or from behind wells. Their adversity among themselves is very great. Ye think of them as a whole whereas their hearts are diverse. That is because they are a folk who have no sense." Sura 59 (al-Hashr, the Exile), verse 14.

... The 'supremacy' message again. I read this to mean that Hamas is teaching others of an inferiority amongst non-Islamists, maybe a cowardice, and lacking what it takes to have the 'sense' to approach Islam in any spirit of equality.

So, Jafar, how come a 'religion of peace' tries to brainwash its adherents into adopting a superiority complex bad enough to insist upon a maintained disparagng mindset against its opposition ?

And with Hamas insisting on taking such a line, BACKING THEMSELVES UP WITH THE 'AUTHORITY' OF A SURA, how would Hamas followers ever be interested in peaceful negotiations undertaken in a good spirit ?

Hamas make it plain that they reject the road of peaceful negotiation in any case (well, they would, because - to be fair - they're terrorist scum !!). BUT, they use SURAS to create and maintain an ANTI-peace outlook.

I ask: HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE, IF YOU, JAFAR, HAVE UNDERSTOOD (a) THE NATURE OF ISLAM CORRECTLY, AND (b) TERRORISTS AREN'T ISLAMIC ?

Referring to 'the Jews' as 'the merchants of war', this following Sura is then quoted ..


"We have cast among them enmity and hatred till the day of Resurrection. As often as they light a fire for war, Allah extinguishes it. Their effort is for corruption in the land, and Allah loves not corrupters." Sura V (Al-Ma'idah - the Table spread), verse 64(61).
Cast enmity, eh ? Sounds 'nice'. Sounds 'peaceful', wouldn't you say, Jafar ??:rolleyes: Basically ... the context is arrogance, warmongering, disparagement the order of the moment, with Islam supremacy present as an undercurrent. EXPRESSED VIA A SURA.

So, Jafar !! Evidence, FROM SURAS, of Hamas using them as part of the basis for their terrorist path. Something which, if I understand your position correctly, should be rendered an impossibility, if Islam does nothing of the kind ?

[aboutime]

Are you claiming from these figures that each and every Muslim would kill a thousand people ??

Jafar, that's a bit enthusiastic of them, wouldn't you say ?



Well, Jafar, I don't understand WHY you're waiting ! Haven't I already covered this ground ?

You say that Hamas's Charter isn't 'evidence from Islam to support terrorism'. Well, considering that earlier in this thread, I quoted from their Charter, showing that the Charter produces Suras which they present as the basis for what they're committed to doing (!!) .. I really fail to see your difficulty in getting all this !

[... actually, of course, that can't be true ... we both know hell would freeze over before you'd admit you were wrong ...]

I'll try AGAIN, THEN. But for those who wonder what a 'Sura' is, and its standing in Islam, see ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sura



... OK. We see from the above that it really doesn't get any more 'bog-standard Islam' than to concern oneself with Suras.

This, Hamas certainly does !!

So, to quote from the Hamas Charter .... are you sitting comfortably, Jafar ?



Not overflowing with the milk of human kindness, eh, Jafar ? Remember ... Hamas interpret this as part of a basis for terrorist justification.

Here's something interesting from the Charter, which says:



I take all this to mean that Hamas insist upon Islam's supremacy in order to guarantee - as they perceive it - relative coexistence with the other religions (.... because, according to you, as terrorists, they CANNOT be Islamic !!!) ... Agreed ?

So, they follow this up with the following Sura ...



... The 'supremacy' message again. I read this to mean that Hamas is teaching others of an inferiority amongst non-Islamists, maybe a cowardice, and lacking what it takes to have the 'sense' to approach Islam in any spirit of equality.

So, Jafar, how come a 'religion of peace' tries to brainwash its adherents into adopting a superiority complex bad enough to insist upon a maintained disparagng mindset against its opposition ?

And with Hamas insisting on taking such a line, BACKING THEMSELVES UP WITH THE 'AUTHORITY' OF A SURA, how would Hamas followers ever be interested in peaceful negotiations undertaken in a good spirit ?

Hamas make it plain that they reject the road of peaceful negotiation in any case (well, they would, because - to be fair - they're terrorist scum !!). BUT, they use SURAS to create and maintain an ANTI-peace outlook.

I ask: HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE, IF YOU, JAFAR, HAVE UNDERSTOOD (a) THE NATURE OF ISLAM CORRECTLY, AND (b) TERRORISTS AREN'T ISLAMIC ?

Referring to 'the Jews' as 'the merchants of war', this following Sura is then quoted ..


Cast enmity, eh ? Sounds 'nice'. Sounds 'peaceful', wouldn't you say, Jafar ??:rolleyes: Basically ... the context is arrogance, warmongering, disparagement the order of the moment, with Islam supremacy present as an undercurrent. EXPRESSED VIA A SURA.

So, Jafar !! Evidence, FROM SURAS, of Hamas using them as part of the basis for their terrorist path. Something which, if I understand your position correctly, should be rendered an impossibility, if Islam does nothing of the kind ?


Sir Drummond. The above has now become more of a reason why I suspect that jafar, and fj, might just be related, or joined at the hip. Perhaps I should say cranium instead of hip???:laugh:

[Drummond]

Sir Drummond. The above has now become more of a reason why I suspect that jafar, and fj, might just be related, or joined at the hip. Perhaps I should say cranium instead of hip???:laugh:

... suggesting that they're sharing brain matter ?

A lack of independent brain cell activity might explain a lot ... :rolleyes::laugh::laugh:

[jafar00]

So, Jafar !! Evidence, FROM SURAS, of Hamas using them as part of the basis for their terrorist path. Something which, if I understand your position correctly, should be rendered an impossibility, if Islam does nothing of the kind ?

I know you love to quote this charter until you are black and blue, but Hamas themselves don't consider it relevant any more.


Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Meshaal) indicated to Robert Pastor, senior adviser to the Carter Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Center), that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons".[84] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-wrmea.com-84) Hamas do not use the Charter on their website and prefer to use their election manifesto to put forth their agenda.[85] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-85)[86] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-86) Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas.[84] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-wrmea.com-84)
British diplomat and former British ambassador (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_Representative_of_the_United_Kingdom_to_ the_United_Nations) to the United Nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations) Sir Jeremy Greenstock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Greenstock) stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006".[87] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-news.bbc.co.uk-87) Mohammed Nimer of American University comments on the Charter, "It's a tract meant to mobilize support and it should be amended.... It projects anger, not vision."[88] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-88) Ahmed Yousef (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yousef), an adviser to Ismail Haniyeh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_Haniyeh), has questioned the use of the charter by Israel and its supporters to brand Hamas as a fundamentalist, terrorist, racist, anti-Semitic organization and claims that they have taken parts of the charter out of context for propaganda purposes. He claims that they dwell on the charter and ignore that Hamas has changed its views with time.[89] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-89)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Current_status_of_the_Charter

I bolded and made clearer that last part for you to understand what you are doing or are duped into doing.

[fj1200]

... we have brain matter ?

A lack of ... is more likely.

The banana and the hack; trolling again. That is about all you two are good at which is unfortunate being on a debate site and all.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You missed (very conveniently) the verses quoted in the Hamas Charter which they use to help prop up their hate message ? Amazing.

In any case, it's more than that. Hamas promote themselves as standard-bearers for Islamic conduct. And .. THEY ARE TERRORISTS.

Being dismissive of my so-called 'Hamas obsession' doesn't help you. Fact is that Hamas are a product of Islamic thinking, they SAY they are, they PROVE it in their Charter's wording ... and YOU ARE SUPPORTIVE of Hamas.

I see you dodged my challenge to distance yourself from Hamas, Jafar. You keep doing this -- don't you ?

Jafar can not take back prior support for Hamas so he is stuck with that splinter in his side. Now due to many posts here(by you , NT, Jeff, Jimmy and others) revealing the truth about Hamas he tries to divert and spin away from his support of murdering TERRORISTS !

He also screams not in the Koran while pretending there are no Hadiths that are a extremely important part of Islam.
That folks, is him being deceitful and highly disingenuous .... And he feels its alright because Islam teaches any level of lying is ok if done to advance Islam and defeat infidels!

Its even possible that he is so indoctrinated (blind) that he is honest in giving his answers but that does not excuse his refusal to deny TRUTH given him by myself and many others here IMHO.. TYR

[Gaffer]

The banana and the hack; trolling again. That is about all you two are good at which is unfortunate being on a debate site and all.

If all you want to do is attack drummond take it to the cage. You're hijacking threads repeatedly with this shit and I am going to start registering complaints if it doesn't stop.

[fj1200]

If all you want to do is attack drummond take it to the cage. You're hijacking threads repeatedly with this shit and I am going to start registering complaints if it doesn't stop.

Did I miss your likewise response to posts #s 42 and 43? :)

[Drummond]

The banana and the hack; trolling again. That is about all you two are good at which is unfortunate being on a debate site and all.:trolls::trolls::trolls::trolls::trolls::troll s::trolls::trolls::trolls::trolls:

Sorry to disappoint you, but I ain't biting ....:slap:

[Drummond]

If all you want to do is attack drummond take it to the cage. You're hijacking threads repeatedly with this shit and I am going to start registering complaints if it doesn't stop.:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Very well said !!! Couldn't agree more, Gaffer.

[fj1200]

:trolls:

Trolling is trolling and it's apparently OK when you and your pals do it. There's a word for that. ;)

[Drummond]

Jafar can not take back prior support for Hamas so he is stuck with that splinter in his side. Now due to many posts here(by you , NT, Jeff, Jimmy and others) revealing the truth about Hamas he tries to divert and spin away from his support of murdering TERRORISTS !

He also screams not in the Koran while pretending there are no Hadiths that are a extremely important part of Islam.
That folks, is him being deceitful and highly disingenuous .... And he feels its alright because Islam teaches any level of lying is ok if done to advance Islam and defeat infidels!

Its even possible that he is so indoctrinated (blind) that he is honest in giving his answers but that does not excuse his refusal to deny TRUTH given him by myself and many others here IMHO.. TYR

If Jafar is uncompromisingly driven by a desire to be motivated by what he sees as a peaceful religion, then those who defy peace through their terrorism should be anathema to all he believes in. Consequently, I can see no reason whatever why Jafar cannot issue a statement unconditionally distancing himself from Hamas, its support, any thought of sympathy for, or identification with, them as a terrorist organisation.

All I've seen thus far is text from Jafar showing he can, on occasion, be critical of them. But such criticism never reaches the point of proof that he fails to be at all supportive of them. Challenges to Jafar to offer uncompromising rejection of Hamas never achieve that goal. It just doesn't happen.

Jafar, why is that ? And if you CAN completely distance yourself from sympathy with them, why not DO IT.

[Drummond]

I know you love to quote this charter until you are black and blue, but Hamas themselves don't consider it relevant any more.

Most interesting !!! Tell us more, Jafar.

For example:


Do they now reject Jihadist behaviour ?
Have they renounced violence altogether ?
Has any form of alternative document, or Charter, been drafted and implemented to replace it ?
Is, in fact, any proof available AT ALL that the Charter is irrevocably rescinded, 'decommissioned', as it were ?
Talking of decommissioning, have Hamas decommissioned their rockets, their bombs and bomb making equipment ? What independent organisation has overseen and verified such decommissioning ?


You'll forgive me, Jafar, if I don't take your claim above seriously. BUT ... don't take that as evidence of a closed mind. If you can PROVE renunciation of all violence from Hamas, or prove that they've scrapped their rockets and bombs, by all means do so.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Current_status_of_the_Charter

I bolded and made clearer that last part for you to understand what you are doing or are duped into doing.

I, too, have a link for you .. it's one that can be stored as a PDF document. You are invited to do so.

http://www2.hull.ac.uk/fass/pdf/Hamas%20charter.pdf


The main points of the Hamas charter:

The conflict with Israeli is religious and political : The Palestinian problem is a religious-political Muslim problem and the conflict with Israel is between Muslims and the Jewish “infidels.”

All Palestine is Muslim land and no one has the right to give it up: The land of Palestine is sacred Muslim land and no one, including Arab rulers, has the authority to give up any of it.

The importance of jihad (holy war) as the main means for the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) to achieve its goals: An uncompromising jihad must be waged against Israel and any agreement recognizing its right to exist must be totally opposed. Jihad is the personal duty of every Muslim.

The importance of fostering the Islamic consciousness: Much effort must be invested fostering and spreading Islamic consciousness by means of education in the spirit of radical Islam, based on the ideology of the Muslim brotherhood.

The importance of Muslim solidarity: A great deal of importance is given to Muslim solidarity, one of whose manifestations is aid to the needy through the
establishment of a network of various “charitable societies.”

In addition, the charter is rife with overt anti-Semitism: According to the charter, the Jewish people have only negative traits and are presented as planning to take over the world.The charter uses myths taken from classical European and Islamic-based anti-Semitism.

But perhaps what I've quoted is somehow 'old' and Hamas can do the biggest 'U' turn seen in history ... you're seriously telling me, Jafar, that Hamas have turned their backs on [I]ALL OF THIS ???

I look forward to your proof that this is now so.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I know you love to quote this charter until you are black and blue, but Hamas themselves don't consider it relevant any more.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Current_status_of_the_Charter

I bolded and made clearer that last part for you to understand what you are doing or are duped into doing.

Yes, Jafar Hamas changed its view. Changed it to this--
They no longer want the world to se what they truly are because they seek far more outside HELP in their quest to destroy Israel and murder every Jew!
They do not create a new Charter because that trash you just tried to pass off as something meaningful to them is just propaganda spit out to fool the infidels and dumbass Western appeasers!!
They keep the old Charter intact as is because it's still exactly what they want and how they plan on acting.
That crap you just cited is like the child molester crying how changed he is as he is scoping out the local grade school yard at recess!
Give me a break!!!!!!! --Tyr

[Drummond]

.... perhaps what I've quoted is somehow 'old' and Hamas can do the biggest 'U' turn seen in history ... you're seriously telling me, Jafar, that Hamas have turned their backs on ALL OF THIS ???

I look forward to your proof that this is now so.

Still waiting, Jafar .... :poke:

[jafar00]

Talking of decommissioning, have Hamas decommissioned their rockets, their bombs and bomb making equipment ? What independent organisation has overseen and verified such decommissioning ?


Any evidence Israel is doing the same in kind? You wouldn't drop your weapons in the face of a constant enemy threat. Why do you insist they do it?


I, too, have a link for you .. it's one that can be stored as a PDF document. You are invited to do so.

http://www2.hull.ac.uk/fass/pdf/Hamas%20charter.pdf


Seriously Drummond. You have to stop quoting something Hamas themselves consider obsolete and irrelevant or you can't be taken seriously.

To counter, here is a Muslim charter which is on the wall in my local Mosque. Relevant parts highlighted for you.

http://i.imgur.com/U1mMq5T.jpg

[aboutime]

[/LIST]

Any evidence Israel is doing the same in kind? You wouldn't drop your weapons in the face of a constant enemy threat. Why do you insist they do it?



Seriously Drummond. You have to stop quoting something Hamas themselves consider obsolete and irrelevant or you can't be taken seriously.

To counter, here is a Muslim charter which is on the wall in my local Mosque. Relevant parts highlighted for you.

http://i.imgur.com/U1mMq5T.jpg


jafar. Care to post another document that also says "YOU WILL NOT DANCE, SING, and ENJOY the EVENTS OF SEPTEMBER 11, 2001...despite how GREAT a Muslim you are".

[jimnyc]

Seriously Drummond. You have to stop quoting something Hamas themselves consider obsolete and irrelevant or you can't be taken seriously.

Did Hamas apologize and say that they no longer think Jew blood is the best blood? Did they reverse their decision that they will never negotiate, ever? They no longer consider Jews "infidels", just for being Jewish people? Did they renounce and/or apologize about dragging bodies behind bikes/cars in public?

What do you care if they are even misquoted for? These people ARE TERRORISTS, nothing more and nothing less. Peace can be had over there if not for Hamas, and I'm even talking of a peaceful division of land where ALL people can live peacefully. Does Hamas want this?

ANY defense of Hamas is sickening.

[aboutime]

Did Hamas apologize and say that they no longer think Jew blood is the best blood? Did they reverse their decision that they will never negotiate, ever? They no longer consider Jews "infidels", just for being Jewish people? Did they renounce and/or apologize about dragging bodies behind bikes/cars in public?

What do you care if they are even misquoted for? These people ARE TERRORISTS, nothing more and nothing less. Peace can be had over there if not for Hamas, and I'm even talking of a peaceful division of land where ALL people can live peacefully. Does Hamas want this?

ANY defense of Hamas is sickening.


Jim. It's really easy to spot a liar. When you push them into a corner with TRUTH. Their only defense is to try and blame someone else to distract attention AWAY from them.
Propaganda from people like jafar is nearly the same as propaganda from the DNC (Democrat national Committee).
The Democrats have used, and repeated their known lies (proven to be lies) so long, and often. EVEN THEY are convinced...the lies are factual.
Tie that together with our FAILING Educational system...run, and controlled by LIBERALS, and we get more lies than ANYONE CAN SHAKE A STICK AT.

[Drummond]

[/LIST]
Any evidence Israel is doing the same in kind? You wouldn't drop your weapons in the face of a constant enemy threat. Why do you insist they do it?

Comparing a legitimate, world-recognised Nation State of Israel with a 'government' that's really a terrorist faction dedicated to the destruction of the aforestated Nation State is insulting in the extreme. Hamas ARE TERRORISTS who ACT as terrorists do.

Israel wants peace with its neighbours ... it has, since it came into being. Yet she's been surrounded by warlike enemies, a chief one of today being .. HAMAS.

I remind you of Israel's not inconsiderable military capability, and ownership of weaponry which could - if used - settle the Hamas problem, finally and for good, in the time it takes you to think of a reply to this post, and post it. However .. Israel is NOT a terrorist State, it is NOT bent on war, nor on mass murder, so - and despite all the massive provocation that country has had over the years - IT REFRAINS FROM USING IT.

... and in the face of all this, you COMPLAIN that Israel keeps herself armed ???

Israel will, indeed, NOT drop her weapons in the face of a constant enemy. It is up to that constant enemy, HAMAS, to renounce violence, decommission its offensive capabilities, and to give up all terrorism. Preferably, also, DISBAND.

But as I point out, and you confirm, Hamas remains as it always has .. a constant and deadly threat. It will not disband, will it. It will not renounce violence, will it. We have no guarantee that they won't turn yet more children into walking bombs ... DO WE.

So, Jafar, yes, I will choose to keep on mentioning Hamas, and your utter refusal to totally condemn them, despite your asserted 'anti terrorism' bona fides ...


Seriously Drummond. You have to stop quoting something Hamas themselves consider obsolete and irrelevant or you can't be taken seriously.

THEN WHAT HAVE THEY REPLACED IT WITH ?? A NEW AND RE-THOUGHT OUT CHARTER ? AN OFFICIAL RENUNCIATION OF ALL FURTHER VIOLENCE ? WHAT'S HAPPENED TO THEIR ROCKETS AND BOMBS?

You don't answer this directly ... DO YOU ?


To counter, here is a Muslim charter which is on the wall in my local Mosque. Relevant parts highlighted for you.

http://i.imgur.com/U1mMq5T.jpg

Does this hold sway over the behaviour of Hamas, Jafar ? Does it even have the slightest connection with Hamas ?

As for your so-called 'counter' above ... all I see is evidence that your local mosque is trying to get along with the local Council, so as to make sure that the Council hasn't grounds for any thought of action against it. Convince me that your local Council is intervening for the good of Israel in its issues with Hamas, and I'll consider the above document relevant. If they're not, then it isn't.

[jafar00]

Comparing a legitimate, world-recognised Nation State of Israel with a 'government' that's really a terrorist faction dedicated to the destruction of the aforestated Nation State is insulting in the extreme. Hamas ARE TERRORISTS who ACT as terrorists do.

Israel wants peace with its neighbours ... it has, since it came into being. Yet she's been surrounded by warlike enemies, a chief one of today being .. HAMAS.

Israel doesn't want peace. How can you say that when they are constantly occupying and oppressing the native population of what used to be Palestine?


I remind you of Israel's not inconsiderable military capability, and ownership of weaponry which could - if used - settle the Hamas problem, finally and for good, in the time it takes you to think of a reply to this post, and post it. However .. Israel is NOT a terrorist State, it is NOT bent on war, nor on mass murder, so - and despite all the massive provocation that country has had over the years - IT REFRAINS FROM USING IT.

Remember, they don't officially confirm nor deny their nuclear capability nor how they plan to use them. They are just allowed to have it without inspections and that is despite the existence of the Samson Option (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option). And yes Drummond, you would be targeted by their nukes if they are allowed to execute it.


THEN WHAT HAVE THEY REPLACED IT WITH ?? A NEW AND RE-THOUGHT OUT CHARTER ? AN OFFICIAL RENUNCIATION OF ALL FURTHER VIOLENCE ? WHAT'S HAPPENED TO THEIR ROCKETS AND BOMBS?

You don't answer this directly ... DO YOU ?

I have already told you about how I feel about them. How I don't support them. Believe what you will.


Does this hold sway over the behaviour of Hamas, Jafar ? Does it even have the slightest connection with Hamas ?

As for your so-called 'counter' above ... all I see is evidence that your local mosque is trying to get along with the local Council, so as to make sure that the Council hasn't grounds for any thought of action against it. Convince me that your local Council is intervening for the good of Israel in its issues with Hamas, and I'll consider the above document relevant. If they're not, then it isn't.

I'm not with HAMAS so it is irrelevant. I just wanted to show you the kind of policy that can be found in ANY Mosque should you care to actually visit one and talk to the people inside rather than just sitting back and reading the bile that your racist and bigoted blogs keep telling you.

[Drummond]

Israel doesn't want peace. How can you say that when they are constantly occupying and oppressing the native population of what used to be Palestine?

Perhaps your idea of history doesn't conform to everyone else's ? My understanding is that, the moment the State of Israel was established after WWII, she was set upon by neighbouring Arab States. Israel's crime, in Arab and Muslim eyes, is that it DARES TO EXIST.

To Muslims, Israel must want war rather than peace, because it won't allow itself to be driven into the sea.

As for your 'native population of ex-Palestine', there was NEVER a Nation State called Palestine. Israel has more internationally-acknowledged right to exist than this so-called 'Palestine' you keep on about.


Remember, they don't officially confirm nor deny their nuclear capability nor how they plan to use them.

Worries you, does it ?

SHOULD it ??

We already know of Israel's non-belligerent intent, courtesy of the fact that her enemies still thrive, have NEVER ONCE been nuked. That's over how many DECADES, Jafar ?

And after HOW MUCH PROVOCATION over the years ??

Consider this. With the supposed nuclear capability in place, with Israel's armament superiority taken as fact, STILL, the likes of Hamas have committed their terrorism in the face of it. What does that tell you .. that Hamas, Gazans, Palestinians, all have one hell of a death wish .. OR .. that their hatred and lust for war runs so deep, that they'll attack Israel regardless !

This can only say one thing. That Israel absolutely needs to keep herself armed to the teeth. That in the face of such disgusting hatred, she doesn't have a choice.


They are just allowed to have it without inspections and that is despite the existence of the Samson Option (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option).

Fine by me !


And yes Drummond, you would be targeted by their nukes if they are allowed to execute it.

This is perhaps the most outrageous nonsense you've ever posted here !!! So, Israel has an ambition to nuke the UK ???


I have already told you about how I feel about them. How I don't support them. Believe what you will.

You will NOT commit yourself to an outright, totally ambiguity-free, statement of opposition to Hamas .. and the statement I'm answering is just one more of your attempts to just HINT at it without actually OFFERING it.

Just more evasion.


I'm not with HAMAS so it is irrelevant.

Neither, Jafar, am I 'with' Israel .. but Israel has my total sympathy nonetheless. Indeed, it staggers me that Israel shows her enemies so much restraint.


I just wanted to show you the kind of policy that can be found in ANY Mosque should you care to actually visit one and talk to the people inside rather than just sitting back and reading the bile that your racist and bigoted blogs keep telling you.

Really ?

Would you include the mosque Abu Hamza used to preach at, in that total ??

Or did you somehow think I'd overlook that example ?

How about Brixton Mosque, then ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brixton_Mosque


Abdullah el-Faisal, a radical Muslim cleric who preached in the UK until he was imprisoned for stirring up racial hatred and in 2007 deported to Jamaica, was associated with the Brixton Mosque in the early 1990s, preaching to crowds of up to 500 people.

The mosque made international headlines when it was reported Richard Reid, the so-called "shoe bomber", had attended the mosque from 1996 to 1998 after converting to Islam in jail. Abdul Haqq Baker, former chairman of mosque, told the BBC that Reid came to the mosque to learn about Islam, but fell in with what he called "more extreme elements" in London's Muslim community. "We have been in contact with the police numerous times over the last five years to warn of the threat posed by militant groups operating in our area," said Baker in December 2001 after Reid's arrest. He had warned that terrorist "talent scouts" prey on mosques like the Brixton mosque in search of the young and unstable. Baker warned the congregation, "The recruiting has got out of control. Beware. It's your sons, your teenagers who are plucked into these extreme groups." A Time magazine article in 2002 said: "The Brixton Mosque is an ideal hunting ground for terrorist talent spotters since it attracts mainly young worshipers, including ex-convicts it helps rehabilitate."

Zacarias Moussaoui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui), who was convicted of conspiring to kill citizens of the USA as part of the September 11, 2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11,_2001), terrorist attacks, frequented the mosque between 1996 and 1997.Some sources report that it was during this period that he met Richard Reid, though others are less certain. Moussaoui was expelled from the mosque after he began wearing combat fatigues and a backpack to the mosque, and pressured the cleric to provide him with information on how to join the jihad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad).

How come Brixton mosque became such a fertile source of 'radicalised' Muslims, Jafar .. time and time again ?

http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-141123/radical-preaching-mosques-has-been-banned


RADICAL PREACHING IN MOSQUES HAS BEEN BANNED

Coast provincial police coordinator Aggrey Adoli says the Imam is among the clerics accused of radical preaching to encourage Muslim youth to join the Alshabab. The mosque was used by the late Aboud Rogo and Sheikh Ibrahim Ismail to conduct prayers.

[jafar00]

Perhaps your idea of history doesn't conform to everyone else's ? My understanding is that, the moment the State of Israel was established after WWII, she was set upon by neighbouring Arab States. Israel's crime, in Arab and Muslim eyes, is that it DARES TO EXIST.

The attack on the new terrorist state of Israel was a counter attack. They invaded land that was already being lived on and violently kicked people out of their homes. Of course there was going to be payback! What did they expect?


To Muslims, Israel must want war rather than peace, because it won't allow itself to be driven into the sea.

Like the Zionists did literally to the Palestinians when they invaded?


As for your 'native population of ex-Palestine', there was NEVER a Nation State called Palestine. Israel has more internationally-acknowledged right to exist than this so-called 'Palestine' you keep on about.

The place was called Palestine for thousands of years. There are maps to prove it. What do you call it pre-1947?


Worries you, does it ?

SHOULD it ??

If their Samson Option includes a missile that can reach Sydney, it concerns me a great deal.


Fine by me !

So it's ok for one bunch of religious fanatics to have nukes, and not ok for another? Even if both groups have you in their targets?

Double standard much?


Really ?

Would you include the mosque Abu Hamza used to preach at, in that total ??

They kicked him out, and I never went there so no idea.


How about Brixton Mosque, then ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brixton_MosqueI prayed there a few times. I never came across any extremism. According to that wiki, they kicked a few people out because they were extremists and/or acting weird in a way contrary to Islamic teachings. I assume they do have a similarly peaceful charter. Why don't you go and ask them for it? I'm sure they would be happy to tell you what their operating policy is.

I note on their webpage it says...




To inform and educate the Muslims in order to avoid any form of misguidance, deviation or extremism, by advising them to adhere to the true Deen (religion or way of life), and to adorn themselves with beautiful Islamic virtues, ethics and mannerisms, to other Muslims and Non-Muslims. Thus, ensuring Allaah’s acceptance and pleasure through which one will achieve true happiness and success.


http://brixtonmasjid.co.uk/about-us/our-objective/

Also from your wiki link...


"We have been in contact with the police numerous times over the last five years to warn of the threat posed by militant groups operating in our area," said Baker in December 2001 after Reid's arrest.

So it seems they have been proactive in weeding out and reporting anything suspicious in the community to the authorities. Isn't that exactly what you wanted?


How come Brixton mosque became such a fertile source of 'radicalised' Muslims, Jafar .. time and time again ?

http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-141123/radical-preaching-mosques-has-been-banned

Interesting link.


Police have banned radical preaching in mosques and summoned four Muslim clerics from Masjid Musa mosque in Mombasa.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Brixton is kinda far from Kenya isn't it? I don't get the link.

[jimnyc]

Did Hamas apologize and say that they no longer think Jew blood is the best blood? Did they reverse their decision that they will never negotiate, ever? They no longer consider Jews "infidels", just for being Jewish people? Did they renounce and/or apologize about dragging bodies behind bikes/cars in public?

What do you care if they are even misquoted for? These people ARE TERRORISTS, nothing more and nothing less. Peace can be had over there if not for Hamas, and I'm even talking of a peaceful division of land where ALL people can live peacefully. Does Hamas want this?

ANY defense of Hamas is sickening.

For the record, the above remains the same, Hamas has not retracted shit and their infidel stance on Jews remains the same. They see them as not human and their blood flowing is a good thing. Only ONE side brags about how they will never negotiate. Only ONE side performs such public and brutal acts, and then is treated like "government".

We all knew the answers to the above, so while it was ignored, they were answered anyway. :)

Regardless of the Israel-Palestine situation, pretty much everyone in the world knows that Hamas=terrorists, unless of course you yourself were raised to be a jew hater, then by default it's difficult to condemn Hamas.

[Drummond]

The attack on the new terrorist state of Israel ...

:confused::confused::confused:

... eh ????

What are you claiming ? That racially hating Arabs and other Muslims have carte blanche to decide the supposedly 'illegitimate' status of Israel, but that the UN had, by contrast, no powers of legitimacy to confer to Israel on its establishment ?

Let's get to the nub of the matter immediately, shall we, Jafar ?

Israel's neighbours are totally driven by race hatred, comparable to Hitler (.. with whom they were pleased to offer a measure of collaboration, by the way). All of this 'Israel is a terrorist State' rubbish is nothing more than pure anti-Semitism, a desire to see Israel destroyed.

In other words ... a position, and underscored by bigotry and racism .. indistinguishable from the likes of Hamas's 'hate Charter', the basis by which Hamas seeks to LEGITIMISE ITS OWN TERRORISM.

You've said you hate terrorists, Jafar. You profess not to be a Hamas supporter (.. belatedly ..) .. yet, you won't unreservedly oppose them, either. Here's why .. because what drives them, and what drives you, IS ESSENTIALLY THE SAME.

Jafar, you'd be a lot more convincing as an 'advocate of peace' if you didn't try to demonise Israel every chance you got !!!!


They invaded land that was already being lived on and violently kicked people out of their homes. Of course there was going to be payback! What did they expect?

... a case in point. Trying to paint Israel in as awful a light as possible.

Israel has a right to exist. You may hate that. Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda and their ilk .. may share your hatred. But unless or until you dispense with it, Jafar, your position as a 'peaceful' Muslim continues to be untenable.

It's up to you. BE what you CLAIM to be, or, continue with your hatreds.

One or the other.


Double standard much?

Well ... quite !

[aboutime]

:confused::confused::confused:

... eh ????

What are you claiming ? That racially hating Arabs and other Muslims have carte blanche to decide the supposedly 'illegitimate' status of Israel, but that the UN had, by contrast, no powers of legitimacy to confer to Israel on its establishment ?

Let's get to the nub of the matter immediately, shall we, Jafar ?

Israel's neighbours are totally driven by race hatred, comparable to Hitler (.. with whom they were pleased to offer a measure of collaboration, by the way). All of this 'Israel is a terrorist State' rubbish is nothing more than pure anti-Semitism, a desire to see Israel destroyed.

In other words ... a position, and underscored by bigotry and racism .. indistinguishable from the likes of Hamas's 'hate Charter', the basis by which Hamas seeks to LEGITIMISE ITS OWN TERRORISM.

You've said you hate terrorists, Jafar. You profess not to be a Hamas supporter (.. belatedly ..) .. yet, you won't unreservedly oppose them, either. Here's why .. because what drives them, and what drives you, IS ESSENTIALLY THE SAME.

Jafar, you'd be a lot more convincing as an 'advocate of peace' if you didn't try to demonise Israel every chance you got !!!!



... a case in point. Trying to paint Israel in as awful a light as possible.

Israel has a right to exist. You may hate that. Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda and their ilk .. may share your hatred. But unless or until you dispense with it, Jafar, your position as a 'peaceful' Muslim continues to be untenable.

It's up to you. BE what you CLAIM to be, or, continue with your hatreds.

One or the other.



Well ... quite !

Sir Drummond. jafar just did it again. His propaganda machine here on DP is exposing him, and his deceit with nearly every post we see from him.

Anyone remember how jafar announced, many, many months ago about how he has Jewish friends?
Wonder if those so-called friends would still call jafar a friend if they READ WHAT HE SAYS HERE????

[Drummond]

Sir Drummond. jafar just did it again. His propaganda machine here on DP is exposing him, and his deceit with nearly every post we see from him.

Anyone remember how jafar announced, many, many months ago about how he has Jewish friends?
Wonder if those so-called friends would still call jafar a friend if they READ WHAT HE SAYS HERE????


I can't remember. Did Jafar say whether those 'Jewish friends' were alive or dead ? Maybe he feels friendlier to them because Hamas has already had them in their sights ?

Perhaps he'll claim they are Jews who see things the Muslim way ? :rolleyes:

[aboutime]

I can't remember. Did Jafar say whether those 'Jewish friends' were alive or dead ? Maybe he feels friendlier to them because Hamas has already had them in their sights ?

Perhaps he'll claim they are Jews who see things the Muslim way ? :rolleyes:


Trying not to give him any more reasons to make excuses for his lies. Who knows. It's impossible to predict what the propaganda from this might become.

I'd still like to be there when his so-called Jewish friends got to read some, or all of his posts here.

[jafar00]

Let's get to the nub of the matter immediately, shall we, Jafar ?

Israel's neighbours are totally driven by race hatred, comparable to Hitler (.. with whom they were pleased to offer a measure of collaboration, by the way). All of this 'Israel is a terrorist State' rubbish is nothing more than pure anti-Semitism, a desire to see Israel destroyed.

Rubbish. Jews lived in Muslim countries for hundreds of years before Israel was established on land that was already occupied. That's the "nub" of the matter. There were already people living there and they got kicked out of their own homes.

The UN was stupid to declare an apartheid state there. That decision has created generations of resentment from the people who want to go back to the home they were forcefully removed from.


I can't remember. Did Jafar say whether those 'Jewish friends' were alive or dead ? Maybe he feels friendlier to them because Hamas has already had them in their sights ?

Perhaps he'll claim they are Jews who see things the Muslim way ? :rolleyes:

Yes, they are very much alive and agree with me 100% on the issue of Israel.

[aboutime]

Rubbish. Jews lived in Muslim countries for hundreds of years before Israel was established on land that was already occupied. That's the "nub" of the matter. There were already people living there and they got kicked out of their own homes.

The UN was stupid to declare an apartheid state there. That decision has created generations of resentment from the people who want to go back to the home they were forcefully removed from.



Yes, they are very much alive and agree with me 100% on the issue of Israel.


jafar. IF ^ that line of yours above is true. Why would you be so supportive of, and so defensive of OTHERS who would happily enjoy the MASS MURDERS of those you insist (propaganda wise) agree 100% with you?????