How can modern men believe in a creator God?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

How can modern men believe in a creator God?


Believing in any good supernatural creator entity should be quite the leap in logic, yet so many Christians admit to believing in such a good and powerful creator type God, --- even though they also often think the world has more evil than good in it.


Ancient man can be said to have lived in a world where there was as much magic as reality and Gods for every occasion. Most religions had to invent a nemesis for God, be it a Satan or a demiurge to take the blame for evil. Christianity followed the pattern for myths that was well known and established and invented Satan. That strange magical/superstitious world would explain why ancient man was foolish enough to believe in fantasy characters and creator Gods.

How would you explain that less enlightened view persisting in today’s supposedly well-educated and intelligent believer?

Regards
DL

[darin]

Same way people believe life magically 'evolved' from non-life. Folks look at info and decide how they interpret what they see.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Same way people believe life magically 'evolved' from non-life. Folks look at info and decide how they interpret what they see.

Do you use scriptures to help you decide?

Perhaps like these.

Matthew 7:17
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.




Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

Christians tell me that God, the good tree, --- produced corrupt fruit as they see a lot of evil.

Do you agree with them or do you see perfect works around you?

Regards
DL


Same way people believe life magically 'evolved' from non-life.

Do you mean God magically evolving from nothing?

Our evolution is blamed on atoms as I recall.

Regards
DL

[Caliban]

I'm not a Christian, nor do I belong to any other organized religion. I am a spiritual pilgrim, and feel drawn to Mahayana Budhhism, Advaitya Hinduism, Neo-Platonism, the Eestern Esoteric Tradition and similar schools.

For me, believing in a creator God solves more logical problems than it creates, even though it is not without major issues itself.

Former atheist philosopher Anthony Flew realized this, and so have I.

[DLT]

How can modern men believe in a creator God?


Believing in any good supernatural creator entity should be quite the leap in logic, yet so many Christians admit to believing in such a good and powerful creator type God, --- even though they also often think the world has more evil than good in it.


Ancient man can be said to have lived in a world where there was as much magic as reality and Gods for every occasion. Most religions had to invent a nemesis for God, be it a Satan or a demiurge to take the blame for evil. Christianity followed the pattern for myths that was well known and established and invented Satan. That strange magical/superstitious world would explain why ancient man was foolish enough to believe in fantasy characters and creator Gods.

How would you explain that less enlightened view persisting in today’s supposedly well-educated and intelligent believer?

Regards
DL

Well for one thing ...not believing in God, the father and creator of us all, would equate to believing that nothing on earth that exists has any real meaning and that our lives have no purpose other than mere existence for the sake of existing. I choose not to believe that.

Just looking around you at nature, at the perfection and diverseness of earthly creatures....at the beauty in abundance of flowers and plants of every kind and medicinal use ....put here FOR mankind by God, the father and the creator. Everything (except for imperfect man) in perfect harmony and balance in nature. None of what you see around you is a product of mere biological evolution or happenstance. There is too much beauty and variety and too many infinite wonders in this world for it to have all merely "evolved" on its' own.

But some prefer to believe in the 'nothingness' of human existence. I pity anyone that embraces or believes in that 'nothing'. Because the main thing that results from that kind of thinking is more negativity and destructive actions, deeds and thoughts. Some call it evil. Some use it to justify suicide. I call it Satan's delight.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I'm not a Christian, nor do I belong to any other organized religion. I am a spiritual pilgrim, and feel drawn to Mahayana Budhhism, Advaitya Hinduism, Neo-Platonism, the Eestern Esoteric Tradition and similar schools.

For me, believing in a creator God solves more logical problems than it creates, even though it is not without major issues itself.

Former atheist philosopher Anthony Flew realized this, and so have I.

Yours is like a God of the Gaps I take it?

Do you recognize the more esoteric Jesus at all. Much of what he taught is Eastern.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Your focus seems to be inwards. What do you think of the thrust of those sayings that Jesus uses?

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Well for one thing ...not believing in God, the father and creator of us all, would equate to believing that nothing on earth that exists has any real meaning and that our lives have no purpose other than mere existence for the sake of existing. I choose not to believe that.

Just looking around you at nature, at the perfection and diverseness of earthly creatures....at the beauty in abundance of flowers and plants of every kind and medicinal use ....put here FOR mankind by God, the father and the creator. Everything (except for imperfect man) in perfect harmony and balance in nature. None of what you see around you is a product of mere biological evolution or happenstance. There is too much beauty and variety and too many infinite wonders in this world for it to have all merely "evolved" on its' own.

But some prefer to believe in the 'nothingness' of human existence. I pity anyone that embraces or believes in that 'nothing'. Because the main thing that results from that kind of thinking is more negativity and destructive actions, deeds and thoughts. Some call it evil. Some use it to justify suicide. I call it Satan's delight.


I too recognize the perfection of creation. Most do not. How is it that you do not see that same perfection in man as I do?



Does God power to create perfection somehow stop at man?



Please explain.



Regards

DL

[Caliban]

Yours is like a God of the Gaps I take it?

Do you recognize the more esoteric Jesus at all. Much of what he taught is Eastern.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Your focus seems to be inwards. What do you think of the thrust of those sayings that Jesus uses?

Regards
DL

I'm not a 'God of the Gaps' type at all. The Divine is primary and all-encompassing with me.

My vision of the divine is of something that is immanent as well as transcendent. To use an unwieldy term I've always disliked, I'm a 'panentheist'. God is both infinitely immanent and transcendent.

Jesus is a bit of a quandary for someone like me. He was, first of all, a man living in the early 1st century and in Palestine. At the very least he must be regarded as a very great prophet, one of the half-dozen greatest there ever were. What he was and what he said and how he said it represents a quantum leap forward in man's moral and spiritual development, on a level with the achievements if Buddha and Moses at least. He was a man in the closest imaginable contact with the divine, even though not necessarily an incarnated divine being himself. There is an esoteric theory that sees him as an avatar of God, one of many in human experience, but I'll have to hang fire on that one for the time being.

The question of how a non-believer in Christian theological dogmas, like myself, encounters and makes sense of a figure of such overpowering spiritual presence and force as Jesus is an interesting one in itself.

[DragonStryk72]

How can modern men believe in a creator God?


Believing in any good supernatural creator entity should be quite the leap in logic, yet so many Christians admit to believing in such a good and powerful creator type God, --- even though they also often think the world has more evil than good in it.


Ancient man can be said to have lived in a world where there was as much magic as reality and Gods for every occasion. Most religions had to invent a nemesis for God, be it a Satan or a demiurge to take the blame for evil. Christianity followed the pattern for myths that was well known and established and invented Satan. That strange magical/superstitious world would explain why ancient man was foolish enough to believe in fantasy characters and creator Gods.

How would you explain that less enlightened view persisting in today’s supposedly well-educated and intelligent believer?

Regards
DL

Really? Is the scientific explanation any better? Here, we'll break down the Big Bang theory:

There was this matter that existed before matter, time, and space, which filled up an infinitely small space, until the proper time, when it exploded outward, creating the universe, time, space, and matter. This matter has never existed before or since, and spontaneously created itself for a millisecond (That millisecond happening before time). That's the theory of the Big Bang. Sorry, but there are some massive holes in that argument.

So, wolves are made up cause sheep exist?! Everything in nature has its antithesis, why would it be any different with the divine? Without antithesis, there is no balance, and where there's no balance, death. Perfect example? Deer in Virginia. During colonization, we of course drove off the natural predators of the region, and this led to a very distinct problem: The deer weren't dying off, and were still mating as usual. This led to the problem that the deer could actually destroy the local ecosystem by eating up all the available vegetation.

So now, in Virginia, hunters have quotas to meet when they go deer hunting, so that they deer population can be kept within limits, and not kill off the other local wildlife.

It is actually a perfect system, which does include us. There was sense in giving us dominion over the animals, because we possess sentient intellect, and thus, can realize that an ecosystem is out of balance, and take actions to right it. Apes, and other creatures cannot really do this sort of intellectual evaluation.

Also, the Bible doesn't really blame Satan for much actual evil. He always shows up as more of a tempter, not an actual adversary, save in Revelations. I mean, Cain slew Able without any reference to Satan.

But as to why we believe in God? That's different for everyone.

[Drummond]

I too recognize the perfection of creation. Most do not. How is it that you do not see that same perfection in man as I do?



Does God power to create perfection somehow stop at man?



Please explain.



Regards

DL


You're claiming 'perfection in man' ? Interesting, that ... because I thought it central to Christianity that Man was 'a sinner', so could not be perfect ?

Man can aspire to be perfect, to NOT sin, and should of course do so. But that doesn't prove any 'perfection'. Far from it !

As DragonStryk points out ...


Without antithesis, there is no balance, and where there's no balance, death.

Existence is full of contrasts. The very Universe is based on them. And when it comes to Mankind .. tell me .. how can 'good' be meaningfully defined, without a corresponding definition of 'evil' ?

The one indivisibly helps to define the other. Yet ... 'evil' DETRACTS from Mankind's 'perfection'. Surely ?

[darin]

Do you use scriptures to help you decide?



Almost never. My believe in the Creator has nothing to do with scripture. My believe is based on scientific and personal evidence.




Do you mean God magically evolving from nothing?

Our evolution is blamed on atoms as I recall.

Regards
DL


No, I wasn't speaking to how GOD 'was created' or formed. That's a different topic. Macro evolution is just stupid. Easy to disbelieve :)

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I'm not a 'God of the Gaps' type at all. The Divine is primary and all-encompassing with me.

My vision of the divine is of something that is immanent as well as transcendent. To use an unwieldy term I've always disliked, I'm a 'panentheist'. God is both infinitely immanent and transcendent.

Jesus is a bit of a quandary for someone like me. He was, first of all, a man living in the early 1st century and in Palestine. At the very least he must be regarded as a very great prophet, one of the half-dozen greatest there ever were. What he was and what he said and how he said it represents a quantum leap forward in man's moral and spiritual development, on a level with the achievements if Buddha and Moses at least. He was a man in the closest imaginable contact with the divine, even though not necessarily an incarnated divine being himself. There is an esoteric theory that sees him as an avatar of God, one of many in human experience, but I'll have to hang fire on that one for the time being.

The question of how a non-believer in Christian theological dogmas, like myself, encounters and makes sense of a figure of such overpowering spiritual presence and force as Jesus is an interesting one in itself.

Indeed. Especially from a moral point of view.

I am not fond of his morals though. Especially if one ties him to the genocidal on murderer of the O.T. via the Trinity.

Jesus's divorce law is anti-love.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4QXOgVfY9k&feature=player_embedded

Care to have a look at some of your morals and gain gnosis?

Regards
DL


Really? Is the scientific explanation any better? Here, we'll break down the Big Bang theory:

There was this matter that existed before matter, time, and space, which filled up an infinitely small space, until the proper time, when it exploded outward, creating the universe, time, space, and matter. This matter has never existed before or since, and spontaneously created itself for a millisecond (That millisecond happening before time). That's the theory of the Big Bang. Sorry, but there are some massive holes in that argument.

So, wolves are made up cause sheep exist?! Everything in nature has its antithesis, why would it be any different with the divine? Without antithesis, there is no balance, and where there's no balance, death. Perfect example? Deer in Virginia. During colonization, we of course drove off the natural predators of the region, and this led to a very distinct problem: The deer weren't dying off, and were still mating as usual. This led to the problem that the deer could actually destroy the local ecosystem by eating up all the available vegetation.

So now, in Virginia, hunters have quotas to meet when they go deer hunting, so that they deer population can be kept within limits, and not kill off the other local wildlife.

It is actually a perfect system, which does include us. There was sense in giving us dominion over the animals, because we possess sentient intellect, and thus, can realize that an ecosystem is out of balance, and take actions to right it. Apes, and other creatures cannot really do this sort of intellectual evaluation.

Also, the Bible doesn't really blame Satan for much actual evil. He always shows up as more of a tempter, not an actual adversary, save in Revelations. I mean, Cain slew Able without any reference to Satan.

But as to why we believe in God? That's different for everyone.

The Jewish myth became corrupted the moment Christianity changed the moral of Eden from an elevation for man to a fall for man.

But who cares? The mental health of people is the more important issue and having all kinds of weird beliefs based on fantasy, miracles and magic is jus insane. Especially if you are to base a moral theology on what talking donkeys and water walking God/Man say.

Let us not forget that all biblical characters are mythical archetypes.

Regards
DL


You're claiming 'perfection in man' ? Interesting, that ... because I thought it central to Christianity that Man was 'a sinner', so could not be perfect ?

Man can aspire to be perfect, to NOT sin, and should of course do so. But that doesn't prove any 'perfection'. Far from it !

As DragonStryk points out ...



Existence is full of contrasts. The very Universe is based on them. And when it comes to Mankind .. tell me .. how can 'good' be meaningfully defined, without a corresponding definition of 'evil' ?

The one indivisibly helps to define the other. Yet ... 'evil' DETRACTS from Mankind's 'perfection'. Surely ?

Don't call me Surly. Kidding.

Let me work backwards from your last with this.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?46025-Can-you-help-but-do-evil-I-do-not-see-how-Do-you

Take the evil we do as we evolve out of us and we go extinct. It follows that evil is thus necessary for us and therefore more good to man's present evolving perfection than evil.

--------------------------------

Good is easy to define.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa6c3OTr6yA

-----------------------------------

That quote is not worthy and above it has been dealt with. I hope.

If you believe in the God of perfect work quoted, I do not understand how you cannot feel perfect.

Regards
DL


Almost never. My believe in the Creator has nothing to do with scripture. My believe is based on scientific and personal evidence.




No, I wasn't speaking to how GOD 'was created' or formed. That's a different topic. Macro evolution is just stupid. Easy to disbelieve :)

Everyone has weird beliefs.

I do not really care about most of your belief, --- other than your moral ones. Although this made me laugh. " No, I wasn't speaking to how GOD 'was created' or formed. That's a different topic."

For darn sure that. Religions. What man has created let no man credit to unworthy Gods.

I am always intrigued by anecdotal stories of apotheosis. I refer to your personal experience. Please tell me your story and I will tell you mine and we can compare our personal evidence of God.

Regards
DL

[Daniyel]

Directly to your title question: Believe in the one your parents did, as it pass by every generation it should be kept that way..unless you're Gnostic :)

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Directly to your title question: Believe in the one your parents did, as it pass by every generation it should be kept that way..unless you're Gnostic :)

Then your type of evil would continue indefinitely. The worship of genocidal son murderers would never stop. I would not wish that on any people.

Regards
DL

[aboutime]

Directly to your title question: Believe in the one your parents did, as it pass by every generation it should be kept that way..unless you're Gnostic :)


Daniyel. From what I have been reading from Gnostic here. A better, descriptive name for him would be "The Anti-Gnostic".

In other words. An entirely different purpose in life as Selfish, Arrogant and Filled with Intentional Hate.

[DragonStryk72]

The Jewish myth became corrupted the moment Christianity changed the moral of Eden from an elevation for man to a fall for man.

But who cares? The mental health of people is the more important issue and having all kinds of weird beliefs based on fantasy, miracles and magic is jus insane. Especially if you are to base a moral theology on what talking donkeys and water walking God/Man say.

Let us not forget that all biblical characters are mythical archetypes.

Many of the biblical figures are also real people, but, as you can conform almost any significant figure from the past into one of the mythical archetypes, that argument doesn't really get much traction.

Also, the story of Eden is both an elevation AND a fall. We became enlightened to knowledge, and, as consequence for our actions in obtaining the enlightenment, we were banished from Eden. That's been there for as long as the Bible has, and something we were taught about in Catholic school.

Edit: Actually, the moral points were never stated by magic. There were the 10 Commandments God gave, and then, for the most part, the other stuff was reinforcement of that core set of rules. Even with Christ, he used reasoned argument, and yes, he performed miracles, but they were never to teach a lesson, nor were they to teach morals. They were to save lives, and feed people.


Don't call me Surly. Kidding.

Let me work backwards from your last with this.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?46025-Can-you-help-but-do-evil-I-do-not-see-how-Do-you

Take the evil we do as we evolve out of us and we go extinct. It follows that evil is thus necessary for us and therefore more good to man's present evolving perfection than evil.

So, you're using as evidence a thread that you were already disproven in? There is no perfection in man, and won't be. You trying to reword and repaint it as such doesn't change it. Proof? We can have our goal well in hand, and then we trip at the finish line, and completely screw ourselves out of it. There's more than enough evidence of this in the world.



--------------------------------

Good is easy to define.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa6c3OTr6yA

-----------------------------------

That quote is not worthy and above it has been dealt with. I hope.

If you believe in the God of perfect work quoted, I do not understand how you cannot feel perfect.

Because, as God and Christ have stated, we aren't perfect. We were not made to be perfect, nor is perfection expected of us. Were we perfect, it would be expected of us.

[fj1200]

Just looking around you at nature, at the perfection and diverseness of earthly creatures....at the beauty in abundance of flowers and plants of every kind and medicinal use ....put here FOR mankind by God, the father and the creator. Everything (except for imperfect man) in perfect harmony and balance in nature. None of what you see around you is a product of mere biological evolution or happenstance. There is too much beauty and variety and too many infinite wonders in this world for it to have all merely "evolved" on its' own.

I'm not sure that I would classify nature as perfection and then classify man as imperfect. Balance in nature is a different thing.


I too recognize the perfection of creation. Most do not. How is it that you do not see that same perfection in man as I do?

Does God power to create perfection somehow stop at man?

God didn't claim perfection, he said it was "very good." Your translation may vary.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Many of the biblical figures are also real people, but, as you can conform almost any significant figure from the past into one of the mythical archetypes, that argument doesn't really get much traction.

Also, the story of Eden is both an elevation AND a fall. We became enlightened to knowledge, and, as consequence for our actions in obtaining the enlightenment, we were banished from Eden. That's been there for as long as the Bible has, and something we were taught about in Catholic school.

Edit: Actually, the moral points were never stated by magic. There were the 10 Commandments God gave, and then, for the most part, the other stuff was reinforcement of that core set of rules. Even with Christ, he used reasoned argument, and yes, he performed miracles, but they were never to teach a lesson, nor were they to teach morals. They were to save lives, and feed people.



So, you're using as evidence a thread that you were already disproven in? There is no perfection in man, and won't be. You trying to reword and repaint it as such doesn't change it. Proof? We can have our goal well in hand, and then we trip at the finish line, and completely screw ourselves out of it. There's more than enough evidence of this in the world.



Because, as God and Christ have stated, we aren't perfect. We were not made to be perfect, nor is perfection expected of us. Were we perfect, it would be expected of us.

No expectations eh.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

No one refuted anything in my other thread.

Read
DL

[fj1200]

No expectations eh.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Context.


Love for Enemies43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23278i)] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I'm not sure that I would classify nature as perfection and then classify man as imperfect. Balance in nature is a different thing.



God didn't claim perfection, he said it was "very good." Your translation may vary.


Matthew 7:17
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Christians would have us think that God, the good tree, --- produced corrupt fruit.

If you believe scriptures that say God is perfect that is.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

Translate his work is perfect to his work is jut good all you like.

Scriptures tell you not to add or subtract but most do not follow scriptures anyway.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Context.

:lame2:

Garbage.

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

:lame2:

Garbage.

:laugh: Yeah, that's about what I expect.

[fj1200]

Translate his work is perfect to his work is jut good all you like.

Scriptures tell you not to add or subtract but most do not follow scriptures anyway.

There does seem to be some pointlessness to discussing this with someone who rejects context.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

There does seem to be some pointlessness to discussing this with someone who rejects context.

Ditto to one who ignores scriptures when not hiding behind them.

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

Ditto to one who ignores scriptures when not hiding behind them.

I don't ignore. It is what it is but what it is not is to be taken out of context. Which is where you reside.

[DragonStryk72]

Matthew 7:17
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Christians would have us think that God, the good tree, --- produced corrupt fruit.

If you believe scriptures that say God is perfect that is.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

Translate his work is perfect to his work is jut good all you like.

Scriptures tell you not to add or subtract but most do not follow scriptures anyway.

Regards
DL

3 (http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/32-3.htm)I will proclaim the name of the Lord.
Oh, praise the greatness of our God!
4 (http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/32-4.htm)He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just.
A faithful God who does no wrong,
upright and just is he.

This is what he means by context, which you keep ignoring to play those word games I previously mentioned. First off, He never actually says it, he says he will proclaim it. Now, you also have to ask, "What are God's works?"

Now, there are two basic summations on this. The first is the Calvinist version, which basically says God constantly creates every single little thing in, and all is pre-destined. This, however, defeats the whole point of free will, and as an engineer, I just couldn't imagine having to manually work a system this complex, or even wanting to.

The second is more in line with the Deist approach, and fits more with my belief on the subject. God created the natural laws to govern the Universe back at the beginning, thus allowing free will. It doesn't remove His knowledge of things to come, but shows it as more of a knowledge of what is going to happen, even seeing different paths that we could go down. Heck, we've discovered behavioral algorithms ourselves, to somewhat predict things.

More importantly, it allows for human error, which we can readily prove exists in great abundance. Not everything everyone says in the Bible is correct, it just isn't. In fact, the only place where it states that things are to be used verbatim is in the Book of Revelations.

So, by saying his works are perfect, it speaks of the Universe as a mechanism, as opposed to trying to speak about every little piece of every little thing. That's really for the anal-retentive Pharisee types, who want to use the words of scripture for their personal billy club.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

3 (http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/32-3.htm)I will proclaim the name of the Lord.
Oh, praise the greatness of our God!
4 (http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/32-4.htm)He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just.
A faithful God who does no wrong,
upright and just is he.

This is what he means by context, which you keep ignoring to play those word games I previously mentioned. First off, He never actually says it, he says he will proclaim it. Now, you also have to ask, "What are God's works?"

Now, there are two basic summations on this. The first is the Calvinist version, which basically says God constantly creates every single little thing in, and all is pre-destined. This, however, defeats the whole point of free will, and as an engineer, I just couldn't imagine having to manually work a system this complex, or even wanting to.

The second is more in line with the Deist approach, and fits more with my belief on the subject. God created the natural laws to govern the Universe back at the beginning, thus allowing free will. It doesn't remove His knowledge of things to come, but shows it as more of a knowledge of what is going to happen, even seeing different paths that we could go down. Heck, we've discovered behavioral algorithms ourselves, to somewhat predict things.

More importantly, it allows for human error, which we can readily prove exists in great abundance. Not everything everyone says in the Bible is correct, it just isn't. In fact, the only place where it states that things are to be used verbatim is in the Book of Revelations.

So, by saying his works are perfect, it speaks of the Universe as a mechanism, as opposed to trying to speak about every little piece of every little thing. That's really for the anal-retentive Pharisee types, who want to use the words of scripture for their personal billy club.

Your bible says not to add to scriptures and here you are doing just that.


A perfect universe wold have to have all of it's bits perfect before being given that attribute.

Scripture say perfect. Not semi-perfect.

Regard
DL

[DragonStryk72]

Your bible says not to add to scriptures and here you are doing just that.


A perfect universe wold have to have all of it's bits perfect before being given that attribute.

Scripture say perfect. Not semi-perfect.

Regard
DL

I'm adding nothing, just interpreting. It does not say the Bible's perfect. After all, Leviticus was part of the Bible, but Christ showed up basically to strike it down, as observed by Paul, who spoke avidly against the Law (For the unknowing, Leviticus was the Jewish Book of Law). God's works are perfect. Men wrote the Bible, divinely-inspired as it may be, it was a work of Man, their interpretations of God's works, with only a few points where God acts or speaks directly. It can be much more accurate with talking about "Jesus said," and points that occur within the Bible historically. Prove me wrong, show me where God personally wrote the Bible. I think there just might be some evidence available to point to the idea that people wrote the Bible, though.

Now, I know you'll try some end-around on this so here we go with the cut-off: We put faith in it the same way you put faith in every link you've posted here. You don't personally do the research, but you believe them to be correct, whether they are or not. Now, of course, people go, "Oh, well the whole world didn't flood."

Well, that's a modern use of the word world. Remember how the Americas used to get called The New World, and Europe The Old World? Were they on different planets? No, of course not. It is only recently that we use world almost purely to speak of Planet Earth (Save for some of our older catches of phrases like "off in your own little world", and such). At the time Noah, it only meant "the world we know of", which was comparatively much, much smaller. But again, that requires understanding, and using, context.

[DragonStryk72]

Your bible says not to add to scriptures and here you are doing just that.


A perfect universe wold have to have all of it's bits perfect before being given that attribute.

Scripture say perfect. Not semi-perfect.

Regard
DL

Seeing as the Universe has been self-maintaining for over 10 billion years, and Earth over 4.6 billion years, I'd say that's a pretty perfect work of design right there.

Even shit serves a purpose in maintaining the world.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I'm adding nothing, just interpreting. It does not say the Bible's perfect. After all, Leviticus was part of the Bible, but Christ showed up basically to strike it down, as observed by Paul, who spoke avidly against the Law (For the unknowing, Leviticus was the Jewish Book of Law). God's works are perfect. Men wrote the Bible, divinely-inspired as it may be, it was a work of Man, their interpretations of God's works, with only a few points where God acts or speaks directly. It can be much more accurate with talking about "Jesus said," and points that occur within the Bible historically. Prove me wrong, show me where God personally wrote the Bible. I think there just might be some evidence available to point to the idea that people wrote the Bible, though.

Now, I know you'll try some end-around on this so here we go with the cut-off: We put faith in it the same way you put faith in every link you've posted here. You don't personally do the research, but you believe them to be correct, whether they are or not. Now, of course, people go, "Oh, well the whole world didn't flood."

Well, that's a modern use of the word world. Remember how the Americas used to get called The New World, and Europe The Old World? Were they on different planets? No, of course not. It is only recently that we use world almost purely to speak of Planet Earth (Save for some of our older catches of phrases like "off in your own little world", and such). At the time Noah, it only meant "the world we know of", which was comparatively much, much smaller. But again, that requires understanding, and using, context.

Follow the logic trail and stop blaming man for what your God did.
If God created even one atom that ended in man, then he is responsible for everything man does.

It is all in his great plan.

Regards
DL