View Full Version : Obama's plan to legalize immigrants
Trigg
08-07-2014, 12:07 PM
Charge: Obama plan to legalize millions of immigrants 'disastrous' to blacks
Any grant of legal status will serve as a magnet to prospective illegal immigrants and further depress employment opportunities and wages for African Americans. Given that the labor force participation rate is at an historic low, the unemployment rate is 6.2 percent, and there has been a precipitous decline in household wealth, the timing for such a grant of legal status could not be worse,” he wrote in the letter, provided to Secrets.
Obama hasn’t formally decided what to do on immigration reform, but is planning some form of executive action after he returns from his extended vacation on Martha’s Vineyard Island inMassachusetts (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/massachusetts).
http://washingtonexaminer.com/black-u.s.-civil-rights-commish-obamas-amnesty-plan-disastrous-to-blacks/article/2551741
Actually it's disastrous to anyone working in unskilled labor.
Lemongrass Gogulope
08-07-2014, 01:30 PM
I'll bite. First of all, I'm not going down the rabbit hole of "democrats love illegal aliens because they are potential voters." I'm going to stick with only discussing illegal immigrants and how they impact the work force.
Can you tell me, if illegal immigrants impact the work force, why this happened?:
http://blog.al.com/wire/2011/10/crackdown_on_illegal_immigrant.html
ATLANTA — A farm labor shortage that left crops rotting in the fields (http://blog.al.com/wire/2011/10/chandler_mountain_farmers_comp.html)after Georgia passed a law cracking down on illegal immigration shows the need for a retooled or expanded guest worker program for migrant laborers, Georgia's agriculture commissioner told a panel of Washington lawmakers Tuesday.
Commissioner Gary Black testified at a Senate subcommittee hearing on immigration enforcement and farm labor that an informal survey showed farmers of onions, watermelons and other handpicked crops lacked more than 11,000 workers during their spring and summer harvest. Farmers say that's because the Georgia immigration law scared off many migrant workers.
(the full story is at the link)
fj1200
08-07-2014, 01:37 PM
." I'm going to stick with only discussing illegal immigrants and how they impact the work force.
Can you tell me, if illegal immigrants impact the work force, why this happened?:
http://blog.al.com/wire/2011/10/crackdown_on_illegal_immigrant.html
ATLANTA — A farm labor shortage that left crops rotting in the fields (http://blog.al.com/wire/2011/10/chandler_mountain_farmers_comp.html)after Georgia passed a law cracking down on illegal immigration shows the need for a retooled or expanded guest worker program for migrant laborers, Georgia's agriculture commissioner told a panel of Washington lawmakers Tuesday.
There is clearly not enough domestic labor in South Georgia to handle the temporary needs of harvesting. But an overall increase in the supply of unskilled labor is going to have a depressing effect on wages, micro level impacts notwithstanding.
Lemongrass Gogulope
08-07-2014, 01:48 PM
There is clearly not enough domestic labor in South Georgia to handle the temporary needs of harvesting. But an overall increase in the supply of unskilled labor is going to have a depressing effect on wages, micro level impacts notwithstanding.
This also happened in Alabama, btw, but I was having trouble cutting and pasting because I failed kindergarten or something.
And I understand what you are saying, but if this was seriously going to impact black people, why didn't black people come along and take these jobs that were suddenly available?
Also, in my area, here in the mushroom capital of the world, employers don't even bother putting up signs in english when they are hiring. The signs say, "necessitamos piscadores." I'm not saying all of these people are illegal, but they are most certainly hispanic.
Trigg
08-07-2014, 01:53 PM
I'll bite. First of all, I'm not going down the rabbit hole of "democrats love illegal aliens because they are potential voters." I'm going to stick with only discussing illegal immigrants and how they impact the work force.
Can you tell me, if illegal immigrants impact the work force, why this happened?:
http://blog.al.com/wire/2011/10/crackdown_on_illegal_immigrant.html
ATLANTA — A farm labor shortage that left crops rotting in the fields (http://blog.al.com/wire/2011/10/chandler_mountain_farmers_comp.html)after Georgia passed a law cracking down on illegal immigration shows the need for a retooled or expanded guest worker program for migrant laborers, Georgia's agriculture commissioner told a panel of Washington lawmakers Tuesday.
Commissioner Gary Black testified at a Senate subcommittee hearing on immigration enforcement and farm labor that an informal survey showed farmers of onions, watermelons and other handpicked crops lacked more than 11,000 workers during their spring and summer harvest. Farmers say that's because the Georgia immigration law scared off many migrant workers.
(the full story is at the link)
There are 11 million illegals in the US at any given time. Most are working in construction, retail and food service positions. Jobs that pay well and can and do support families.
Illegal immigration does have some undeniably negative economic effects. Similarly skilled native-born workers are faced with a choice of either accepting lower pay or not working in the field at all. Labor economists have concluded that undocumented workers have lowered the wages of U.S. adults without a high-school diploma — 25 million of them — by anywhere between 0.4 to 7.4 percent.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magazine/do-illegal-immigrants-actually-hurt-the-us-economy.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Now, this article does go on to say that since illegals pay rent and utilities they help the economy by spending money. However there is no doubt that they HURT low income and unskilled workers.
After all, why hire and American worker for minimum wage when you can get an illegal for less??
Immigrants use public assistance, medical care and schools
This is a particular problem in Texas and Arizona. We have even noticed an increased problem with illegals at the hospitals in my area. They present to the ER without identification and must be treated. The hospitals eat the cost of their care, simply because they are unable to bill them. Hospitals in both states mentioned have declared bankruptcy.
fj1200
08-07-2014, 01:55 PM
This also happened in Alabama, btw, but I was having trouble cutting and pasting because I failed kindergarten or something.
And I understand what you are saying, but if this was seriously going to impact black people, why didn't black people come along and take these jobs that were suddenly available?
Also, in my area, here in the mushroom capital of the world, employers don't even bother putting up signs in english when they are hiring. The signs say, "necessitamos piscadores." I'm not saying all of these people are illegal, but they are most certainly hispanic.
I'm sure it happens in many places where there isn't enough permanent workers to solve a temporary need. And I didn't say anything about black people but if it costs someone too much to take a temporary job hundreds of miles from home with no real benefit, i.e. they aren't going to starve, then no, they won't move. Now if you want to talk about the depressed wages due to an oversupply of labor vs. the marginal costs of losing welfare benefits where distance isn't an issue... well, that would be fun. :)
NightTrain
08-07-2014, 02:32 PM
I'll bite. First of all, I'm not going down the rabbit hole of "democrats love illegal aliens because they are potential voters." I'm going to stick with only discussing illegal immigrants and how they impact the work force.
Funny. It's true, though.
Can you tell me, if illegal immigrants impact the work force, why this happened?:
It's well known that illegals are paid less than minimum wage. Why would anyone take a job for $3 / hour when they can get a job at McDonalds for $8 / hour?
If the farmers need to jack up their prices to support the lawful minimum wage, then so be it.
But why this problem is occurring is because there are a few unscrupulous farmers getting the economic advantage of using illegals which keeps his overhead down, when the upstanding farmer down the road is paying higher labor prices and so is at a tremendous economic disadvantage.
If the government enforced the laws against hiring illegals for illegally low wages across the board, this wouldn't be an issue because the playing field is level. I understand that produce prices would rise to accommodate the higher labor costs, and I don't have a problem with that.
NAFTA is a whole other issue - the tomatoes I buy here in AK are from Mexico. That doesn't make any sense unless you have almost next-to-nothing in labor costs & taxes to more than offset freight costs.
We, as a nation, must adhere to our laws. This picking-and-choosing which laws to enforce is destroying this once great nation. Either enforce the laws or get rid of them if they don't make sense. Lawlessness leads to chaos, and that's what is happening with the massive wave of immigrants crossing the border.
Lemongrass Gogulope
08-07-2014, 02:36 PM
Funny. It's true, though.
I said I wasn't going down that rabbit hole. You should respect that.
It's well known that illegals are paid less than minimum wage. Why would anyone take a job for $3 / hour when they can get a job at McDonalds for $8 / hour?
If the farmers need to jack up their prices to support the lawful minimum wage, then so be it.
But why this problem is occurring is because there are a few unscrupulous farmers getting the economic advantage of using illegals which keeps his overhead down, when the upstanding farmer down the road is paying higher labor prices and so is at a tremendous economic disadvantage.
If the government enforced the laws against hiring illegals for illegally low wages across the board, this wouldn't be an issue because the playing field is level. I understand that produce prices would rise to accommodate the higher labor costs, and I don't have a problem with that.
NAFTA is a whole other issue - the tomatoes I buy here in AK are from Mexico. That doesn't make any sense unless you have almost next-to-nothing in labor costs & taxes to more than offset freight costs.
We, as a nation, must adhere to our laws. This picking-and-choosing which laws to enforce is destroying this once great nation. Either enforce the laws or get rid of them if they don't make sense. Lawlessness leads to chaos, and that's what is happening with the massive wave of immigrants crossing the border.
How about we crack down on the people who hire the illegals and give them less incentive to come here.
Also, there are two separate issues going on. The influx of illegal immigrants hasn't changed over the years and they are being deported. I believe you might be confusing the current refugee situation with illegal immigration.
Trigg
08-07-2014, 02:45 PM
I said I wasn't going down that rabbit hole. You should respect that.
How about we crack down on the people who hire the illegals and give them less incentive to come here.
Also, there are two separate issues going on. The influx of illegal immigrants hasn't changed over the years and they are being deported. I believe you might be confusing the current refugee situation with illegal immigration.
Fining the people doing the hiring would absolutely help the situation, mandating e-verify would also be a step in the right direction. Deportations will hardly put a dent in our illegal population. Changing the hiring practices of people and companies is the only way to do it.
What exacting is different about the current illegal immigration problem going on at the border? Obama's confusing policies regarding "dreamers" has encouraged people to send for their children. IMHO the current flow of illegals is NOT a refugee situation, although I am sure the media/white house loves the idea of people falling for that line.
NightTrain
08-07-2014, 02:52 PM
I said I wasn't going down that rabbit hole. You should respect that.
I did respect it. Otherwise you would have seen a paragraph or three about it.
It was smart of you to disengage from that line of reasoning you knew was coming and I found it genuinely funny. I wasn't being snarky; I was admiring your foresight.
How about we crack down on the people who hire the illegals and give them less incentive to come here.
I agree completely.
Every person who breaks labor laws should face fines & jail time. That would rapidly fix the problem.
Also, there are two separate issues going on. The influx of illegal immigrants hasn't changed over the years and they are being deported. I believe you might be confusing the current refugee situation with illegal immigration.
There are no differences. Illegals are illegals and there should be no distinction in how they're dealt with by the authorities.
There are immigrants following the rules and becoming citizens of the USA every day. There is a legal path to follow, but if we don't enforce immigration laws then why would anyone bother?
It spoke volumes when a group of illegals protested in front of the White House without fear of being deported last week.
Lemongrass Gogulope
08-07-2014, 03:06 PM
Fining the people doing the hiring would absolutely help the situation, mandating e-verify would also be a step in the right direction. Deportations will hardly put a dent in our illegal population. Changing the hiring practices of people and companies is the only way to do it.
What exacting is different about the current illegal immigration problem going on at the border? Obama's confusing policies regarding "dreamers" has encouraged people to send for their children. IMHO the current flow of illegals is NOT a refugee situation, although I am sure the media/white house loves the idea of people falling for that line.
There isn't a simple explanation as to why the influx of children, but Obama was pretty clear as to what constituted a "dreamer." And money is being spent in Nicaragua, Guatemala and Hondorus to combat the spread of this misinformation. The problem is that the people are so desperate that it doesn't really matter.
Lemongrass Gogulope
08-07-2014, 03:11 PM
There are no differences. Illegals are illegals and there should be no distinction in how they're dealt with by the authorities.
But that's not what the law says. Are you suggesting we violate our own laws?
There are immigrants following the rules and becoming citizens of the USA every day. There is a legal path to follow, but if we don't enforce immigration laws then why would anyone bother?
But the laws are being followed.
It spoke volumes when a group of illegals protested in front of the White House without fear of being deported last week.
I think the issue there is that we are a nation free from random searches. I'm pretty sure that's covered in the constitution. You can't prove they are illegal just because they are brown and you can't demand they show papers without probable cause.
jimnyc
08-07-2014, 03:44 PM
Put up a 50 foot steel wall, 10 feet thick. Landmine within 500 yards of gate. Man the gate with .50 calibers. Give people warning on how to get into the country legally.
Oh, and place live cameras along the wall and charge a fee to watch people get blown up trying to sneak in. Help the federal debt at the same time - Obama has increased it by $7b while in office, this would be an awesome way to offset some of that money. Maybe use some of the income to deport those already here. If someone has a criminal record, and here illegally, send them back instantly. Part of a gang? Out by dawn.
jimnyc
08-07-2014, 03:49 PM
But the laws are being followed.
If that were the case, anyone caught being in the country illegally would be charged with a crime at the very least, and then deported. Instead, they are given money, drivers licenses, room and board - things citizens have trouble getting. These folks are not coming into the States in the same manner as those in "legal immigration". Those folks often take years, and go through tons of paperwork, and get sponsored and jump through all the legal hurdles. Others crawl along the Rio Grande and are in here within a day, and live in illegal apartments, with illegal jobs. In fact, I would say that the laws that are NOT being followed in regards to our borders and immigration is literally out of control.
NightTrain
08-07-2014, 04:05 PM
But that's not what the law says.
It doesn't? How so? How does it differentiate between one illegal and another illegal?
Are you suggesting we violate our own laws?
No. I'm saying we need to enforce our laws consistently, 100% of the time.
But the laws are being followed.
Nope. They're not.
Illegal immigrant demonstrators were protesting outside the White House on Monday – but don’t expect America’s immigration officers to intervene.
An Immigration and Customs Enforcement official indicated that even if the protesters end up getting arrested by D.C. police, they’d have to be serious criminals for ICE to get involved.
“Unless the individuals meet ICE’s enforcement priorities, it’s unlikely that the agency would get involved in the case,” the official told FoxNews.com.
Under a policy that’s been in effect for several years, ICE focuses deportation mostly on serious criminals and – in some cases -- those caught in the act of crossing the border. The agency prioritizes deportation for felons, repeat offenders, gang members and others with a serious criminal record. But the agency largely gives a pass to other undocumented residents.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/07/28/illegal-immigrants-protest-outside-white-house-with-little-fear-repercussions/
I think the issue there is that we are a nation free from random searches. I'm pretty sure that's covered in the constitution. You can't prove they are illegal just because they are brown and you can't demand they show papers without probable cause.
Stop-and-frisk comes to mind.
The wave of illegals observed crossing the border and not immediately turned around also come to mind.
Beyond that, the protest last week in front of the White House by illegals proudly proclaiming that they were illegals shows that we are not enforcing our own laws. ICE didn't have to ask, they proclaimed it themselves.
From Wiki :
Section 1325 in Title 8 of the United States Code (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_8_of_the_United_States_Code), "Improper entry of alien", provides for a fine, imprisonment, or both for any noncitizen who:[57] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#cite_note-cornell-57)
enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration agents, or
eludes examination or inspection by immigration agents, or
attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact.
And then you have Sanctuary Cities enacting their own liberal policies to protect illegals from deportation :
Several US cities have instructed their own law enforcement personnel and other city employees not to notify or cooperate with the federal government when they become aware of illegal immigrants living within their jurisdiction.Many cities, including Washington, D.C. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington,_D.C.); New York City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City) NYC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_in_New_York_City); Los Angeles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles); Chicago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago); San Francisco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco);[108] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#cite_note-sfgov-108) San Diego (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego); Austin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin); Salt Lake City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Lake_City); Dallas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas); Detroit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit); Honolulu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honolulu); Houston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston); Jersey City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_City); Minneapolis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis);Miami (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami); Denver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver); Aurora, Colorado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora,_Colorado); Baltimore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore); Seattle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle); Portland, Oregon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland,_Oregon); Portland, Maine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland,_Maine); and Senath, Missouri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senath,_Missouri), have become "sanctuary cities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctuary_cities)", having adopted ordinances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_ordinance) refraining from stopping or questioning individuals for the sole purpose of determining their immigration status.[109] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#cite_note-ilw-109)
Most of these cities claim that the benefit illegal immigrants bring to their city outweigh the costs.[not in citation given (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability)] Opponents say the measures violate federal law as the cities are in effect creating their own immigration policy, an area of law which only Congress has authority to alter.[110] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#cite_note-foxnews12-110)
This is clearly unconstitutional - you cannot have a State Law more lenient than Federal Law. It can be more severe; but never more lax.
Let's not get into a discussion about a State making marijuana legal when Fed Law says it's illegal... that's another ball of worms but clearly unconstitutional as well.
Trigg
08-08-2014, 06:56 AM
There isn't a simple explanation as to why the influx of children, but Obama was pretty clear as to what constituted a "dreamer." And money is being spent in Nicaragua, Guatemala and Hondorus to combat the spread of this misinformation. The problem is that the people are so desperate that it doesn't really matter.
If the people were simply desperate they would stop in Mexico, instead they are getting information that America will let them stay. I've read the news articles and the quotes they are getting from the people crossing.
The 2008 law that is keeping Obama from deporting these kids isn't being followed by him, he is cherry picking the parts he wants to follow for political reasons.
But what about the red-tape processing that Obama (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/barack-obama/) says gets in their way? We know the president skirts inconvenient laws when he wants to do so. And although there is some red tape for the minors, there is no federal law that requires officials to drag their feet on deporting the thousands of adults newly arrived from Central America. And no red tape on the accompanied minors
The statute says the goal is that the unaccompanied alien children “are safely repatriated to their country of nationality or of last habitual residence.”
Interestingly, that law foresees a problem if minors are released in the U.S. to custody of fellow illegal aliens. The statute requires officials to make sure that a potential custodian is someone who is trained to recognize his “responsibility to attempt to ensure the child’s appearance at all immigration proceedings.” Obviously, that disqualifies anyone who himself is in the country illegally.
Obviously fling these children around the country, at a huge cost, and reuniting them with their illegal parents is AGAINST the law he SAYS he is trying to follow. Putting them up is more costly, according to this article, than simply verifying their last know address and flying them home.
Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/8/istook-flying-illegals-home-would-be-995-percent-c/#ixzz39nhyTJjA
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rw?id=ctd-fI3Dar4z1uacwqm_6r&u=washtimes)
This also happened in Alabama, btw, but I was having trouble cutting and pasting because I failed kindergarten or something.
And I understand what you are saying, but if this was seriously going to impact black people, why didn't black people come along and take these jobs that were suddenly available?
Also, in my area, here in the mushroom capital of the world, employers don't even bother putting up signs in english when they are hiring. The signs say, "necessitamos piscadores." I'm not saying all of these people are illegal, but they are most certainly hispanic.
I use to pick up in your area, Watermelons, and the only english speaking folks where the broker and the guy that did my paper work.
Lemongrass Gogulope
08-08-2014, 10:24 AM
After all, why hire and American worker for minimum wage when you can get an illegal for less??
Exactly. Which is why I am for harsh punishments for these employers. They are the ones hurting the low wage citizen.
This is a particular problem in Texas and Arizona. We have even noticed an increased problem with illegals at the hospitals in my area. They present to the ER without identification and must be treated. The hospitals eat the cost of their care, simply because they are unable to bill them. Hospitals in both states mentioned have declared bankruptcy.
Again, I recognize the problems caused by illegal immigrants, but making it less appealing for them to come here (ie, they won't find work) would go a long way to curbing the problem.
fj1200
08-08-2014, 10:33 AM
Exactly. Which is why I am for harsh punishments for these employers. They are the ones hurting the low wage citizen.
Again, I recognize the problems caused by illegal immigrants, but making it less appealing for them to come here (ie, they won't find work) would go a long way to curbing the problem.
So you do accept the premise of the OP. Excellent. However I don't blame private employers for a failure of the central government to enact a rational border policy.
Lemongrass Gogulope
08-08-2014, 10:34 AM
Funny. It's true, though.
It's well known that illegals are paid less than minimum wage. Why would anyone take a job for $3 / hour when they can get a job at McDonalds for $8 / hour?
If the farmers need to jack up their prices to support the lawful minimum wage, tht. en so be i
But why this problem is occurring is because there are a few unscrupulous farmers getting the economic advantage of using illegals which keeps his overhead down, when the upstanding farmer down the road is paying higher labor prices and so is at a tremendous economic disadvantage.
If the government enforced the laws against hiring illegals for illegally low wages across the board, this wouldn't be an issue because the playing field is level. I understand that produce prices would rise to accommodate the higher labor costs, and I don't have a problem with that.
NAFTA is a whole other issue - the tomatoes I buy here in AK are from Mexico. That doesn't make any sense unless you have almost next-to-nothing in labor costs & taxes to more than offset freight costs.
We, as a nation, must adhere to our laws. This picking-and-choosing which laws to enforce is destroying this once great nation. Either enforce the laws or get rid of them if they don't make sense. Lawlessness leads to chaos, and that's what is happening with the massive wave of immigrants crossing the border.
I get flummoxed by excessive multi-quotes and try not to use them, so bear with me. As to what I bolded: How much are we, as Americans, willing to pay for a head of lettuce? We are already being burdened by the incredible cost of food as it is.
NAFTA: Don't get me started. That was one of the worst things for our country to ever come down the pike. CAFTA didn't make it any better, either.
As far as adhering to the laws: I agree. But, it's a slippery slope in going after people once they are in the country because you risk violating the privacy of actual citizens if you start implementing "papers on demand" laws. That could lead to a major abuse of power by law enforcement officials and could mean that innocent US citizens are jailed. Besides, (and I really hesitate to go here) it smacks of Nazi Germany.
As far as adhering to the laws regarding the current influx of illegals coming, not from Mexico, but Central America: That is happening. There is a law from 2008 that states people not from contiguous countries cannot be turned away, but must first be given due process. And these people aren't trying to hide from border patrol or sneak in. They are walking up to agents and turning themselves in. Adhering to the laws in their situation is going to take some time. And, we also need to address the humanitarian crises that are occurring in these countries. Apparently, huge swaths of the land is being overrun by drug lords and gangs. And, before you say, "not my country/not my problem," the historical aspect of what caused this to happen needs to be addressed.
Lemongrass Gogulope
08-08-2014, 10:37 AM
If that were the case, anyone caught being in the country illegally would be charged with a crime at the very least, and then deported. Instead, they are given money, drivers licenses, room and board - things citizens have trouble getting. These folks are not coming into the States in the same manner as those in "legal immigration". Those folks often take years, and go through tons of paperwork, and get sponsored and jump through all the legal hurdles. Others crawl along the Rio Grande and are in here within a day, and live in illegal apartments, with illegal jobs. In fact, I would say that the laws that are NOT being followed in regards to our borders and immigration is literally out of control.
I didn't say illegals weren't breaking the law.
Joyful HoneyBee
08-08-2014, 10:40 AM
One of the worst aspects to all these "immigrants" crossing into the U.S. is the serious distraction it creates, thereby allowing some of the most undesirable people in the world to slip through the cracks. There are obviously terrorists from some of the murkiest places in the world making their way across the border, too.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/immigration/item/18857-immigrants-from-over-75-countries-illegally-crossing-us-border
Maybe so many people in Central America wouldn't be so eager to make their way into the U.S. if our DOJ hadn't sent so many guns to the drug cartels across the border. Would it be such a stretch to believe this current situation was a planned result of F&F?
http://www.occupycorporatism.com/home/fast-furious-created-refugees-illegal-immigrants/
As long as we allow these lawless and treasonous individuals to occupy the highest stations in our government, we'll have no hope of overcoming any of these assaults on this country.
fj1200
08-08-2014, 10:46 AM
As to what I bolded: How much are we, as Americans, willing to pay for a head of lettuce? We are already being burdened by the incredible cost of food as it is.
NAFTA: Don't get me started. That was one of the worst things for our country to ever come down the pike. CAFTA didn't make it any better, either.
umm...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_LKZQT6pv_oU/TDH4UasFQVI/AAAAAAAAA_o/vvYJD_tkJVs/s400/food.jpg
We should be paying the true cost of what we consume.
Deeper, better, NAFTA (http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21592612-north-americas-trade-deal-has-delivered-real-benefits-job-not-done-deeper-better)
A STEP to rival the creation of NATO, or a mortal threat to American jobs from cheap Mexican labour? The arguments for and against the North American Free-Trade Agreement (NAFTA) before its launch on January 1st 1994 were hyperbolic. Twenty years on, NAFTA’s backers have won the argument.
The American and Canadian economies were already pretty well integrated before the creation of NAFTA, so there was no great leap in trade between the two. But America’s trade with Mexico increased by 506% between 1993 and 2012, compared with 279% with non-NAFTA countries. In 2011 America traded as much with Canada and Mexico as it did with the BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China), Japan and South Korea combined. The “giant sucking sound” that Ross Perot, a presidential candidate, predicted would be heard as Mexico hoovered up American jobs never materialised; if jobs have moved anywhere in the past two decades, they have gone to China, not Mexico. Industries from aerospace to cars have woven supply chains back and forth across North America’s borders. Some 40% of the content of imports from Mexico into the United States, and 25% of the content of imports from Canada, originated in the United States itself. Helped by rising energy production in all three countries, Factory North America is being created (seearticle (http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21592631-two-decades-ago-north-american-free-trade-agreement-got-flying-start-then-it)).
Lemongrass Gogulope
08-08-2014, 10:49 AM
So you do accept the premise of the OP. Excellent. However I don't blame private employers for a failure of the central government to enact a rational border policy.
You don't blame employers for blatantly breaking the law? And I'm not sure what would be rational. Please don't say a fence. If that were the solution to the problem, it could have been done a long, long time ago. Illegal immigration has been a problem for decades now.
Gaffer
08-08-2014, 11:14 AM
The very first thing that needs to be done is to seal the border. That's first and foremost. It's what's not being done. You can't do anything else effectively until you put a stopper in the drain hole.
What I believe is being done here is another years long plan by the DNC (democrat nazi communist) party to create their one party dominance. They let the illegals in, over time they are given amnesty and the right to vote. Guess who they will be voting for. This is long term planning. They will have a few set backs but there are enough rinos in place to keep the status quo until they have the numbers.
Up until the 70's and ceasar chavez the migrant workers came in from Mexico on buses with worker permits and worked the farms during harvest season. They then took buses home to Mexico. Can't have that. They needed to be unionized and paid outrageous sums of money. Most couldn't even read or write. Those who over stayed their visa were rounded up and sent back.
Now, with the help of govt media, the illegals are portrayed as being poor innocent refugees seeking asylum. When actually they are future democrat voters.
What to do about the cartels? Simple, tell the countries they operate in to help or get out of the way. Pin point the major locations and launch a military assault on each one. If we want peace and security we have to play policeman of the world, whether we like it or not.
But nobody ever listens to me.
Lemongrass Gogulope
08-08-2014, 11:28 AM
umm...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_LKZQT6pv_oU/TDH4UasFQVI/AAAAAAAAA_o/vvYJD_tkJVs/s400/food.jpg
We should be paying the true cost of what we consume.
Deeper, better, NAFTA (http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21592612-north-americas-trade-deal-has-delivered-real-benefits-job-not-done-deeper-better)
U.S. Jobs Were Lost:
Since labor is cheaper in Mexico, many manufacturing (http://useconomy.about.com/od/economicindicators/p/Durable_Goods.htm) industries moved part of their production from high-cost U.S. states. Between 1994 and 2010, the U.S. trade deficits (http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepolicy/p/Trade_Deficit.htm) with Mexico totaled $97.2 billion, displacing 682,900 U.S. jobs. (However, 116,400 occurred after 2007, and could have been a result of the financial crisis.)
Nearly 80% of the losses were in manufacturing. California, New York, Michigan and Texas were hit the hardest because they had high concentrations of the industries that moved plants to Mexico. These industries included motor vehicles, textiles, computers, and electrical appliances. (Source: Economic Policy Institute, "The High Cost of Free Trade (http://www.epi.org/publication/heading_south_u-s-mexico_trade_and_job_displacement_after_nafta1/)," May 3, 2011)
>snip<
Mexico's Farmers Were Put Out of Business:
Thanks to NAFTA, Mexico lost 1.3 million farm jobs. The 2002 Farm Bill subsidized U.S. agribusiness by as much as 40% of net farm income. When NAFTA removed tariffs (http://useconomy.about.com/od/glossary/g/tariff.htm), corn and other grains were exported to Mexico below cost. Rural Mexican farmers could not compete. At the same time, Mexico reduced its subsidies (http://useconomy.about.com/od/fiscalpolicy/tp/Subsidies.htm) to farmers from 33.2% of total farm income in 1990 to 13.2% in 2001. Most of those subsidies went to Mexico's large farms, anyway.(Source: International Forum on Globalization, Exposing the Myth of Free Trade, February 25, 2003; The Economist, Tariffs and Tortillas (http://www.economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10566845), January 24, 2008)
http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepolicy/p/NAFTA_Problems.htm
Where would unemployed Mexican farmers be tempted to go in order to support their families?
(the link also provides a list of advantages of NAFTA) But those advantages are outweighed by the exploitation of workers from both the US and Mexico.
http://fpif.org/nafta-20-state-north-american-worker/
Joyful HoneyBee
08-08-2014, 01:08 PM
Joblessness and low wage work isn't just a problem in Mexico and Central America. There's a worldwide problem with unemployment, and it cannot be solved by allowing everyone to illegally enter the U.S. and receive refugee status.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/more-than-200-million-people-were-unemployed-in-the-world-in-2013/
Industrial globalization seems to have had exactly the opposite effect from what was projected as we've moved into this global age. NAFTA and CAFTA haven't hastened in the "prosperity for all" that was supposedly anticipated. In the U.S. our exports are heavily overshadowed by our imports, especially from China; and, far too many people are presently on the government dole to begin with. We don't need to add more, yet humanitarians emphasize that we must. We're unlikely to turn this around with other countries around the world rejecting our exported agricultural products due to their national bans on GMO foods. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/25/china-corn-usa-idUSL4N0MM0KY20140325. Agriculture in Central American countries hasn't taken off the way they expected, either.
The problems don't even stem from anyone's unwillingness to work. Rather, they are political in nature. When lawless thugs run the systems of government, not just in third world countries, but also in highly developed countries like the U.S., there's no hope of making anything better. First, we should apprehend and prosecute the criminals who are bastardizing both the political and social systems; then, we can work to reform those systems.
NightTrain
08-08-2014, 01:44 PM
I get flummoxed by excessive multi-quotes and try not to use them, so bear with me. As to what I bolded: How much are we, as Americans, willing to pay for a head of lettuce? We are already being burdened by the incredible cost of food as it is.
I spend a hideous amount of money on food - I have 3 teenagers in my house to feed. Dropping $500 at the store is a regular thing.
But that is irrelevant - the laws need to be enforced & followed. The argument that it's good for us, as consumers, is muddying the waters. If the laws are enforced and farmers start going to jail for breaking the law, then the price of goods will equalize to where they should be when everyone is playing by the rules.
When word gets out that illegals aren't getting any work, that removes the incentive for a lot of them to sneak across the border.
As far as adhering to the laws regarding the current influx of illegals coming, not from Mexico, but Central America: That is happening. There is a law from 2008 that states people not from contiguous countries cannot be turned away, but must first be given due process. And these people aren't trying to hide from border patrol or sneak in. They are walking up to agents and turning themselves in. Adhering to the laws in their situation is going to take some time. And, we also need to address the humanitarian crises that are occurring in these countries. Apparently, huge swaths of the land is being overrun by drug lords and gangs. And, before you say, "not my country/not my problem," the historical aspect of what caused this to happen needs to be addressed.
I have no problem with people and refugees seeking asylum and applaud them for trying to gain a better life for themselves. Those are the few that present themselves in a forthright manner to the proper authorities and begin the naturalization process.
But I don't give a damn about people in the same circumstances that are sneaking across the border. It doesn't matter what their motives are, the fact remains that they chose to break our laws and therefore are deliberate criminals and need to be deported 100% of the time.
It would also greatly diminish the influx of illegals when word gets out that every single one that's caught will be promptly dumped unceremoniously across the border from whence they came with a warning of severe jail time if they do it again. As it stands now, when they are caught, they're released back into the American public and that is nothing but encouragement to the masses still back in their home countries. Every one of those that made it across are telling their families and friends that it's perfectly safe to sneak across and even when caught, nothing happens unless you're a felon.
Obama's refusal to enforce illegal immigration laws has created this monster, pure and simple. I can't believe that Obama and his minions didn't think of what the consequences would be by following this path. It's common sense as to what the result would be and anyone should be able to see it - let alone the geniuses running the country. It's pure insanity.
Joyful HoneyBee
08-08-2014, 03:00 PM
I have no problem with people and refugees seeking asylum and applaud them for trying to gain a better life for themselves. Those are the few that present themselves in a forthright manner to the proper authorities and begin the naturalization process.
But I don't give a damn about people in the same circumstances that are sneaking across the border. It doesn't matter what their motives are, the fact remains that they chose to break our laws and therefore are deliberate criminals and need to be deported 100% of the time.
I couldn't agree more. I think once someone has been caught sneaking across, and sent back, they should forevermore be denied the opportunity to come back legally. That might deter some of the sneakiness, too.
Kathianne
08-08-2014, 03:23 PM
So you do accept the premise of the OP. Excellent. However I don't blame private employers for a failure of the central government to enact a rational border policy.
I don't blame the employers for government failure, I blame the government. I blame the employers for employing illegals.
Lemongrass Gogulope
08-08-2014, 04:30 PM
I couldn't agree more. I think once someone has been caught sneaking across, and sent back, they should forevermore be denied the opportunity to come back legally. That might deter some of the sneakiness, too.
I can live with that.
Lemongrass Gogulope
08-08-2014, 06:46 PM
I think that conservatives do themselves a disservice by thinking liberals/democrats don't view illegal immigration as a problem, but as a way to obtain more voters. That is simply not true. We just don't believe that the resolution to the problem is as simple as "build a fence" and "shoot the messicans." The issue of how to deal with the children of illegals who were raised in this country and know no other life is very complex. They are innocent of any wrongdoing. So what's the solution?
Gaffer
08-08-2014, 10:35 PM
I think that conservatives do themselves a disservice by thinking liberals/democrats don't view illegal immigration as a problem, but as a way to obtain more voters. That is simply not true. We just don't believe that the resolution to the problem is as simple as "build a fence" and "shoot the messicans." The issue of how to deal with the children of illegals who were raised in this country and know no other life is very complex. They are innocent of any wrongdoing. So what's the solution?
Seal the border. Crack down hard on employers of illegals. This will start a mass self deportation. Then the ones raised here get a hearing in a court. If they fail to show up for the hearing and are located later they get the boot. Also, fine all sanctuary cities that don't give up their illegals.
Hanging Judge
08-09-2014, 12:05 AM
Cut off welfare and the poor will be fighting the illegals tooth and nail to pick mushrooms. Black so called leaders embrace illegals for the simple fact they can add to the coffers and keep the checks flowing. Illegals flooding into the US only serve to further bring down the black and poor population. You have been slaves of the Democrats for years and that's just where they want you. Dependent on the government teet.
Trigg
08-09-2014, 10:23 AM
I think that conservatives do themselves a disservice by thinking liberals/democrats don't view illegal immigration as a problem, but as a way to obtain more voters. That is simply not true. We just don't believe that the resolution to the problem is as simple as "build a fence" and "shoot the messicans." The issue of how to deal with the children of illegals who were raised in this country and know no other life is very complex. They are innocent of any wrongdoing. So what's the solution?
The children of illegals who were raised in this country can simply go back home with their parents. If they were born here and want to return at a later date or the parents choose to leave them here with other family than that is a FAMILY decision.
Their parents chose to bring them here and they didn't know the language or the customs. But, for some reason dems are all up in arms because they might have to go home to a country where they don't know the language or the customs. :lame2:
red state
08-09-2014, 10:54 AM
Cut off welfare and the poor will be fighting the illegals tooth and nail to pick mushrooms. Black so called leaders embrace illegals for the simple fact they can add to the coffers and keep the checks flowing. Illegals flooding into the US only serve to further bring down the black and poor population. You have been slaves of the Democrats for years and that's just where they want you. Dependent on the government teet.
Good to see you are back!!!! And I couldn't agree with you more! Unfortunately, the border invaders are now coming to REPLACE those who traditionally occupied the "cheese lines" whereas they were once coming to WORK. They have learned through observation that it is MUCH easier to enslave the tax payers and support the dimocrats so that the enslaved taxpayers are LOCKED in to work and cater to those with their hands out. What we now see in today's "welfare" is a state where it is no longer a hand out but "Their Fair Share" that is owed to them.
red state
08-09-2014, 11:05 AM
To fix this awful problem and the treat to our lives (economically and literally) we need to FIRST control the border with the same military might that we have used to isolate terrorist threats over seas. SECONDLY, we need to place an adequate system (be it fence or other) to deter or HALT the crossing of our border. Thirdly (or simultaneously and in junction with the previously mentioned steps) we need to HEAVILY fine and incarcerate those who hire the illegal border invaders. If there is no work for these folks, there will be a greatly reduced want or need for many of them to invade our sovereignty. For those who invade our border to simply do us harm, engage in drug trafficking and/or strive to live off of the cheese line......we will need to 'correct' the wrongs and the evils of citizenry/gov. such as BLUE States who openly welcome illegal activity.
With the state of our economy, I don't know why we haven't closed ALL immigration world-wide. We've done this in the past and it seems logical to do so now (at least until we have gotten all of our ducks in a row). To increase "immigration" by means of amnesty for illegal activity or even certain LEGAL immigration from select parts of the world seems to border insanity. Of course, we are, for the most part, suffering from the insanity and evils of a radical LEFTist leadership so it should be no surprise to see the destruction all around us.
red state
08-09-2014, 11:09 AM
Seal the border. Crack down hard on employers of illegals. This will start a mass self deportation. Then the ones raised here get a hearing in a court. If they fail to show up for the hearing and are located later they get the boot. Also, fine all sanctuary cities that don't give up their illegals.
:clap::clap::clap:v:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::c lap::clap::clap::clap:
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::c lap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
My sincere apologies to you Mr. Gaffer!!!!......I just now read your post and see that you and I are once again SPOT ON with one another's think processes. I simply saw Hanging Judge's post and wished to support those views without realizing that I was merely supporting yours as well. Thanks for your post.....your wisdom is what we need in political offices throughout this great Nation.
red state
08-09-2014, 04:33 PM
Seal the border. Crack down hard on employers of illegals. This will start a mass self deportation. Then the ones raised here get a hearing in a court. If they fail to show up for the hearing and are located later they get the boot. Also, fine all sanctuary cities that don't give up their illegals.
Let's not forget the impeachment process for the traitor currently occupying OUR White House who has caused this crisis with the help of his minions!!!!
fj1200
08-14-2014, 04:21 PM
You don't blame employers for blatantly breaking the law? And I'm not sure what would be rational. Please don't say a fence. If that were the solution to the problem, it could have been done a long, long time ago. Illegal immigration has been a problem for decades now.
Not really. I reject the notion that we should be letting the government off the hook for having an abysmal immigration policy. As you've shown the failure is noted by farmers having to rely on illegal immigrants while at the same time not having a plan that would allow immigrants to live and work in the US through some sort of guest worker program. If it takes a wall to have a rational immigration policy then build a wall.
U.S. Jobs Were Lost:
Meh, how many studies would you like me to find extolling the virtues of NAFTA? How about this one (http://www.factcheck.org/2008/07/naftas-impact-on-employment/)?
The Congressional Budget Office surveyed all the major economic studies of NAFTA's effects in 2004 and concluded: "NAFTA had little or no impact on aggregate employment."
Did some guy named Joe lose his job to Mexico? Undoubtedly but free trade overall is better than protectionism. Any problems the US has is of our own doing by having a crappy global competitiveness policy led by our ridiculous corporate tax to which I say, eliminate the corporate tax. :)
fj1200
08-14-2014, 04:23 PM
I don't blame the employers for government failure, I blame the government. I blame the employers for employing illegals.
Even with food rotting in the fields?
grannyhawkins
08-16-2014, 07:46 AM
There is clearly not enough domestic labor in South Georgia to handle the temporary needs of harvesting. But an overall increase in the supply of unskilled labor is going to have a depressing effect on wages, micro level impacts notwithstanding.
Every time this comes up, I can't help but recall the movie "Cool Hand Luke". I just come through southern Alabama an there was a sign next to the road, warning that prisoners were cleaning up the roadsides. I can't think of no better deterrent to a life of crime than hard labor.
Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
08-16-2014, 10:12 AM
Every time this comes up, I can't help but recall the movie "Cool Hand Luke". I just come through southern Alabama an there was a sign next to the road, warning that prisoners were cleaning up the roadsides. I can't think of no better deterrent to a life of crime than hard labor.
Your recollection drives the point home my friend! We have people that would just love for chaos to reign supreme here now. Just another nail in the ole coffin as far as they are concerned, Obama leads them..Tyr
fj1200
08-18-2014, 09:13 AM
Every time this comes up, I can't help but recall the movie "Cool Hand Luke". I just come through southern Alabama an there was a sign next to the road, warning that prisoners were cleaning up the roadsides. I can't think of no better deterrent to a life of crime than hard labor.
:confused: Exactly what crime are you looking to deter?
Trigg
08-18-2014, 03:10 PM
:confused: Exactly what crime are you looking to deter?
are you trying to say that you see no difference between hard labor and sitting in an air conditioned prison?
Put prisoners to WORK in stead of sending them to watch TV and maybe they will decide to STAY OUT OF TROUBLE when they get out.
The prisoners get to enjoy the "great outdoors" while working off their debt to society and we get our fields tended to without illegal immigration. It's a win-win.
fj1200
08-18-2014, 04:09 PM
are you trying to say that you see no difference between hard labor and sitting in an air conditioned prison?
Put prisoners to WORK in stead of sending them to watch TV and maybe they will decide to STAY OUT OF TROUBLE when they get out.
The prisoners get to enjoy the "great outdoors" while working off their debt to society and we get our fields tended to without illegal immigration. It's a win-win.
Um, I'm saying this thread is about illegal immigration and I don't really expect to sentence people to hard labor for crossing the border.
Trigg
08-18-2014, 05:43 PM
Um, I'm saying this thread is about illegal immigration and I don't really expect to sentence people to hard labor for crossing the border.
No we should let the prisoners do the hard labor, picking the fruit, harvesting whatever needs to be done.
If prisoners are doing the work, there would be no draw for illegal immigrants. Especially if the gov. started enforcing e-verify and fining the hell out of employers.
grannyhawkins
08-18-2014, 06:38 PM
:confused: Exactly what crime are you looking to deter?
Eatn too many hard boiled eggs.
fj1200
08-19-2014, 10:05 AM
No we should let the prisoners do the hard labor, picking the fruit, harvesting whatever needs to be done.
If prisoners are doing the work, there would be no draw for illegal immigrants. Especially if the gov. started enforcing e-verify and fining the hell out of employers.
Convict leasing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convict_lease) has a bad enough rep as it is. Do you really want prisoners who have no desire to be there have direct access to your food? We need a better system and that's not it.
Eatn too many hard boiled eggs.
I like kitties.
Trigg
08-19-2014, 01:38 PM
Convict leasing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convict_lease) has a bad enough rep as it is. Do you really want prisoners who have no desire to be there have direct access to your food? We need a better system and that's not it.
Would I worry about convicts picking my food, simple answer.....NO
If employers were made to follow the rules already on the books we wouldn't have a problem. Therefor, we don't need a better system, we need to follow the laws already in place. Employers aren't being fined, e-verify isn't being implemented.
Illegals, for the most part, are working good paying jobs in construction and factories. Jobs Americans WANT and NEED.
What the US does not need are millions more poor, uneducated people living off the government tit. Deported them and deny them job opportunities and they will leave.
grannyhawkins
08-19-2014, 05:30 PM
Convict leasing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convict_lease) has a bad enough rep as it is. Do you really want prisoners who have no desire to be there have direct access to your food? We need a better system and that's not it.
I like kitties.
I'm shakin the bush boss, shakin the bush!!!
fj1200
08-19-2014, 06:00 PM
Would I worry about convicts picking my food, simple answer.....NO
If employers were made to follow the rules already on the books we wouldn't have a problem. Therefor, we don't need a better system, we need to follow the laws already in place. Employers aren't being fined, e-verify isn't being implemented.
Illegals, for the most part, are working good paying jobs in construction and factories. Jobs Americans WANT and NEED.
What the US does not need are millions more poor, uneducated people living off the government tit. Deported them and deny them job opportunities and they will leave.
First, I don't want convicts picking my food and if they followed the law as in some agricultural areas then harvesting wouldn't occur. The issue is far greater than the oversimplification of deport them because we need a better system. Second, I have no problem getting a better handle on the whole immigration issue, if we need guest workers at harvest time for farmers like we need the H1Bs to supply tech workers to big business then let's not get in the way.
I'm shakin the bush boss, shakin the bush!!!
Kitties are cute.
grannyhawkins
08-19-2014, 06:11 PM
First, I don't want convicts picking my food and if they followed the law as in some agricultural areas then harvesting wouldn't occur. The issue is far greater than the oversimplification of deport them because we need a better system. Second, I have no problem getting a better handle on the whole immigration issue, if we need guest workers at harvest time for farmers like we need the H1Bs to supply tech workers to big business then let's not get in the way.
Kitties are cute.
I'm not so sure I agree with ya, as I don't think it's over simplification atall to deport thar law breakin arse's, it's just simple and cost effective. As far as H1B visas, I work around leading edge tech an I've seen first hand the asian researchers here on HIB visas and I can tell you, an educated monkey could perform the mundane tasks involved in this cutting edge research. I could take the whole of ferguson Missouri and have em runnin centrifuges inna couple of hours!!!
fj1200
08-19-2014, 06:34 PM
I'm not so sure I agree with ya, as I don't think it's over simplification atall to deport thar law breakin arse's, it's just simple and cost effective. As far as H1B visas, I work around leading edge tech an I've seen first hand the asian researchers here on HIB visas and I can tell you, an educated monkey could perform the mundane tasks involved in this cutting edge research. I could take the whole of ferguson Missouri and have em runnin centrifuges inna couple of hours!!!
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRIbJK2MMaqhw35n5A1ROdfUgOOduZ6b CwML-5mr7AVYuFcfWag
Gaffer
08-19-2014, 10:42 PM
Ever hear of a prison farm. They are minimum security prisons where the inmates do all the farm work and provide all the food for all the prisons in the state. Excess food is sold. There's nothing prison inmates can do to raw vegetables. They are not going to do anything more than an illegal can do.
fj1200
08-20-2014, 12:36 PM
^They're not going to feed a country.
grannyhawkins
08-20-2014, 05:48 PM
^They're not going to feed a country.
Thar's a lotta cotton pickers in prison.
According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Bureau_of_Justice_Statistics) (BJS), 2,266,800 adults were incarcerated in U.S. federal and state prisons, and county jails at year-end 2011
red state
08-20-2014, 07:15 PM
Ever hear of a prison farm. They are minimum security prisons where the inmates do all the farm work and provide all the food for all the prisons in the state. Excess food is sold. There's nothing prison inmates can do to raw vegetables. They are not going to do anything more than an illegal can do.
True that, Gaffer! I would imagine that the health benefits that the prisoners have received all their lives makes them MUCH more of a safe system than the diseased border invaders......guaranteed!! We've seen too many fruits and veggies recalled for things that is sometimes caused by diseased border invaders pissing and $#!Tin' in the field.
GRANNY, you hit the head and drove the nail past the surface......we could save a lot of gas if we'd use the MANY cotton pickers we have in prison. Thing is, a third of them will be border invaders....almost 2/3rds will be black with few oriental, white or "OTHER". It seems that you can take the pickers out of the cotton but you will never take the cotton pickin' out of some folks. For some.....it seems that they'll make their lives hard come hell or high water and we should oblige them any chance we get. {...sure wish you'd stop helpin' me out, BOSS...} Loved that movie! If only we went back to more of that.....we'd at least have some of the cleanest hwys around.
fj1200
08-21-2014, 08:08 AM
Thar's a lotta cotton pickers in prison.
According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Bureau_of_Justice_Statistics) (BJS), 2,266,800 adults were incarcerated in U.S. federal and state prisons, and county jails at year-end 2011
I don't eat cotton. Besides, that's apparently not enough let alone the logistical issues of moving potentially violent prisoners and housing them and guarding them and feeding them and, and, and.
The U.S. Public Health Service estimates a total of 3.5 million migrant and seasonal farmworkers in the United States.
http://www.migrantclinician.org/issues/migrant-info/migrant.html
Gaffer
08-21-2014, 09:10 AM
I don't eat cotton. Besides, that's apparently not enough let alone the logistical issues of moving potentially violent prisoners and housing them and guarding them and feeding them and, and, and.
http://www.migrantclinician.org/issues/migrant-info/migrant.html
What part of minimum security didn't you understand in my post? Violent and potentially violent prisoners are not kept in minimum security prisons. The prisoners volunteer, are paid and they earn time off their sentences for doing the work.
Even large county jails could offer the services of the prisoners to local farms. They are really only needed at harvest time.
fj1200
08-21-2014, 12:06 PM
What part of minimum security didn't you understand in my post? Violent and potentially violent prisoners are not kept in minimum security prisons. The prisoners volunteer, are paid and they earn time off their sentences for doing the work.
Even large county jails could offer the services of the prisoners to local farms. They are really only needed at harvest time.
Um, you realize I was responding to granny? I took your post for what it was and they are not going to feed a country. Make a dent? Debatable but have you accounted for transportation and housing costs for prisoners err, workers that aren't next door to a farm?
grannyhawkins
08-21-2014, 06:14 PM
I don't eat cotton. Besides, that's apparently not enough let alone the logistical issues of moving potentially violent prisoners and housing them and guarding them and feeding them and, and, and.
http://www.migrantclinician.org/issues/migrant-info/migrant.html
Ain't no logistical issues with criminal gimmygrant invaders though is thar??? It's all just a free fur all an don't present any problems or any additional cost to the taxpayers. Hail!!! We're given them gimmygrants a sightseein tour of the good ole U.S. of A, all at taxpayer expense. Those folks in ferguson probably, never been outside of ferguson, but thar just dum ole Black USA citizens!!!
fj1200
08-22-2014, 07:53 AM
Ain't no logistical issues with criminal gimmygrant invaders though is thar??? It's all just a free fur all an don't present any problems or any additional cost to the taxpayers. Hail!!! We're given them gimmygrants a sightseein tour of the good ole U.S. of A, all at taxpayer expense. Those folks in ferguson probably, never been outside of ferguson, but thar just dum ole Black USA citizens!!!
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/10/d7/8c/10d78caf1dd3b97622f8ba2d1f319298.jpg
DebateDrone
08-22-2014, 09:49 AM
There are 11 million illegals in the US at any given time. Most are working in construction, retail and food service positions. Jobs that pay well and can and do support families.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magazine/do-illegal-immigrants-actually-hurt-the-us-economy.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Now, this article does go on to say that since illegals pay rent and utilities they help the economy by spending money. However there is no doubt that they HURT low income and unskilled workers.
After all, why hire and American worker for minimum wage when you can get an illegal for less??
This is a particular problem in Texas and Arizona. We have even noticed an increased problem with illegals at the hospitals in my area. They present to the ER without identification and must be treated. The hospitals eat the cost of their care, simply because they are unable to bill them. Hospitals in both states mentioned have declared bankruptcy.
According to the Texas Hospital Association Medicaid is the largest drain on Hospitals in Texas. illegal aliens are not allowed to participate in Medicaid and were not cited as a problem.
http://www.tha.org/HealthCareProviders/Issues/FinanceandReimburse098F/Response%20to%20Sen%20Nelson%20on%20cost%20contain ment.pdf
No hospitals in Texas have closed due to bankruptcy for servicing illegals...do you have a list or link to that?
jimnyc
08-22-2014, 09:53 AM
According to the Texas Hospital Association Medicaid is the largest drain on Hospitals in Texas. illegal aliens are not allowed to participate in Medicaid and were not cited as a problem.
http://www.tha.org/HealthCareProviders/Issues/FinanceandReimburse098F/Response%20to%20Sen%20Nelson%20on%20cost%20contain ment.pdf
No hospitals in Texas have closed due to bankruptcy for servicing illegals...do you have a list or link to that?
Maybe not 'specifically' due to servicing illegals, but bankruptcy has happened. Performing services and not getting payment, which happens far too frequently, isn't exactly a recipe for success.
jimnyc
08-22-2014, 09:53 AM
According to the Texas Hospital Association Medicaid is the largest drain on Hospitals in Texas. illegal aliens are not allowed to participate in Medicaid and were not cited as a problem.
http://www.tha.org/HealthCareProviders/Issues/FinanceandReimburse098F/Response%20to%20Sen%20Nelson%20on%20cost%20contain ment.pdf
No hospitals in Texas have closed due to bankruptcy for servicing illegals...do you have a list or link to that?
Btw, welcome to DP. :salute: :beer:
Trigg
08-22-2014, 11:59 AM
According to the Texas Hospital Association Medicaid is the largest drain on Hospitals in Texas. illegal aliens are not allowed to participate in Medicaid and were not cited as a problem.
http://www.tha.org/HealthCareProviders/Issues/FinanceandReimburse098F/Response%20to%20Sen%20Nelson%20on%20cost%20contain ment.pdf
No hospitals in Texas have closed due to bankruptcy for servicing illegals...do you have a list or link to that?
Here ya go
www.examiner.com/.../ (http://www.examiner.com/.../)illegal-aliens-cost-california-hospitals-more-than
According to the California Hospital Association (CHA), illegal aliens cost hospitals across the state about $1.25 billion a year in unpaid medical care.
In 2003, the American Southwest saw 77 hospitals enter bankruptcy due to unpaid medical bills incurred by illegal aliens. A staggering 84 hospitals in California have been forced to close their doors because of the growing crisis. Hospitals which manage to remain open, then pass the unpaid costs onto the rest of us, which translates into more out-of-pocket expenses and higher insurance premiums for all Americans.
also, as far as Medicaid is concerned, there is a federal "slush fund" also known as Emergency Funding which is used to treat illegals. So essentially, despite your assertation, illegals ARE allowed to participate in Medicaid, in order to save hospitals from eating the entire cost of treating illegals that come to the ER.
Federal law generally bars illegal immigrants from being covered by Medicaid. But a little-known part of the state-federal health insurance program for the poor has long paid about $2 billion a year for emergency treatment for a group of patients who, according to hospitals, mostly comprise illegal immigrants.
In 2011, for example:
New York spent $528 million on Emergency Medicaid for nearly 30,000 people.
Texas reported 240,000 claims costing $331 million. (One person could be responsible for multiple claims.)
Florida spent $214 million on 31,000 patients.
North Carolina spent $48 million on about 19,000 people.
Arizona spent $115 million. It couldn't break out the number of people.
Illinois spent $25 million on the cost of care to nearly 2,000 people.
www.kaiserhealthnews.org/.../medicaid-illegal-immigrant-emergency-car
grannyhawkins
08-22-2014, 05:49 PM
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/10/d7/8c/10d78caf1dd3b97622f8ba2d1f319298.jpg
Yur sucha sweet widdle kitty.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.