"Anyone who denies the Holocaust needs to come talk to me"

[gabosaurus]

I was talking to my mom this morning and she informed that one of my favorite sources for German history recently died.
First time I went to Germany, my great aunt took me to Dachau. It is one of the most haunting reminders of past atrocities I have ever seen. Still living nearby at the time was a man who was once a guard there. While a living witness of the camp, he in no way endorsed what went on there. Whenever anyone asked him why he worked at Dachau, he said "At that time, you either worked or you didn't eat."
I remember asking him what he thought about those who deny the Holocaust happened. He said "Anyone who denies it needs to come talk to me."
He was the youngest of four in his family. Both of his older brothers died in the war. He helped raise their families. His parents opposed the rise of Hitler and were removed in the late 30's, never to be seen or heard from again.
A generally fascinating person. RIP Rudolph. :beer:

[Caliban]

I still don't know the ins and outs of this forum and who's who and what's what, but so far--with the obvious exception of that Jaffar person--I haven't really encountered any Stormfronter-types here, and that's such a breath of fresh air!

I had to leave the last forum I was at because it was starting to fill up with anti-semites and radical conspiracy kooks--the two types of mental disorder seem to be found together all too often. I couldn't take it any longer. You folks seem sane by comparison...so far.:laugh:

[Drummond]

I still don't know the ins and outs of this forum and who's who and what's what, but so far--with the obvious exception of that Jaffar person--I haven't really encountered any Stormfronter-types here, and that's such a breath of fresh air!

I had to leave the last forum I was at because it was starting to fill up with anti-semites and radical conspiracy kooks--the two types of mental disorder seem to be found together all too often. I couldn't take it any longer. You folks seem sane by comparison...so far.:laugh:

I always like it when someone calls me sane .. thanks very much !! :laugh:

[aboutime]

I still don't know the ins and outs of this forum and who's who and what's what, but so far--with the obvious exception of that Jaffar person--I haven't really encountered any Stormfronter-types here, and that's such a breath of fresh air!

I had to leave the last forum I was at because it was starting to fill up with anti-semites and radical conspiracy kooks--the two types of mental disorder seem to be found together all too often. I couldn't take it any longer. You folks seem sane by comparison...so far.:laugh:


Caliban. Have no fear whatsoever from me. My grandparents, and parents were German, and came here in the 1920's.
Truth is. I personally am proud, as an American. To say I understand, and support what Israel has been going through...since before the year I was born in 1947.

Anyone who says Israel is guilty of DEFENDING themselves, as few have tried here. Probably do not deserve the credibility, and respect they demand by allowing themselves to be so easily-led, based on endless false information I call PROPAGANDA.

Enjoy your breath of fresh air here. Many of us will help you because....WE ONLY ACCEPT Honest Facts, and prove the false ones to be jokes.

[namvet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8djIHQS4kyQ

you would not believe the fake and photoshopped photo's ive seen on this. posted by deniers. it was all the Jews fault.

reality

http://i62.tinypic.com/11jud7l.jpg

photos (http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/10/world-war-ii-the-holocaust/100170/)

[Redrose]

My mom had a friend in Brooklyn in the sixties, who had the "numbers" tattooed on her forearm. I was about 13 and she noticed I was staring at them. She said when you're older I'll tell you about them.




Years later she did tell me. She and her parents and two siblings were arrested as Jews and sent to Dachau. Her father, mother and brother were shot before her eyes. She and her sister were taken aside. She was 14 her sister was 16. They were used, over and over by the SS for sex.
She endured terrible tortures to survive. Her sister did not.
Those numbers are a constant reminder of that horror.

My dad was in WWII and was assigned with the army photographer for a while. His photo album is remarkable. This photo was a pile of bodies in Buchenwald when the allies arrived.

[namvet]

My mom had a friend in Brooklyn in the sixties, who had the "numbers" tattooed on her forearm. I was about 13 and she noticed I was staring at them. She said when you're older I'll tell you about them.




Years later she did tell me. She and her parents and two siblings were arrested as Jews and sent to Dachau. Her father, mother and brother were shot before her eyes. She and her sister were taken aside. She was 14 her sister was 16. They were used, over and over by the SS for sex.
She endured terrible tortures to survive. Her sister did not.
Those numbers are a constant reminder of that horror.

My dad was in WWII and was assigned with the army photographer for a while. His photo album is remarkable. This photo was a pile of bodies in Buchenwald when the allies arrived.

Eisenhower ordered the holocaust to be filmed and photographed. he knew some day someone would jump up and say it didn't happen

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Gen_Eisenhower_at_death_camp_report_crop.jpg

he was so outraged he refused to show up at the surrender

[Redrose]

IKE and Churchill, Dad was proud of this picture. The other is bodies in an oven. Sadly, it did happen.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6303&stc=1

[Perianne]

IKE and Churchill, Dad was proud of this picture. The other is bodies in an oven. Sadly, it did happen.


How gruesome. Gives me the willies.

[gabosaurus]

When I went to Germany in 2006, I was shown a book called "I Will Not Forget." Written in German, it is mostly first-person accounts of the war. What struck me were the photographs. They were uncensored and often very graphic. Troops fighting close quarters bayonet fights, dead bodies in the streets (including women and children), executions. Then there were the concentration camp photos. Bodies being loaded in and out of ovens, women and children being gassed, medical experiments.
While the Allies were advancing on both fronts, the SS tried to destroy all the evidence of concentration camps. In many cases, records and photos were preserved by German citizens. Most of them had no idea what went on inside camps, because they were never allowed in or told.
There are also stories about the Liberation. The majority of Western soldiers showed kindness, while the Russians were extremely brutal.

[Redrose]

When I went to Germany in 2006, I was shown a book called "I Will Not Forget." Written in German, it is mostly first-person accounts of the war. What struck me were the photographs. They were uncensored and often very graphic. Troops fighting close quarters bayonet fights, dead bodies in the streets (including women and children), executions. Then there were the concentration camp photos. Bodies being loaded in and out of ovens, women and children being gassed, medical experiments.
While the Allies were advancing on both fronts, the SS tried to destroy all the evidence of concentration camps. In many cases, records and photos were preserved by German citizens. Most of them had no idea what went on inside camps, because they were never allowed in or told.
There are also stories about the Liberation. The majority of Western soldiers showed kindness, while the Russians were extremely brutal.


My dad didn't talk too much about it, his album said enough, but one story he did tell was when they first entered Buchenwald and a naked skeleton approached them, arms out begging for food, help, anything. They gave him some of their rations and he died within minutes, his weakened body couldn't handle the food.

True, the German people were fed propaganda and did not believe those atrocities really happened. It's very important we have a free, honest, unbiased press, or else horrors like the Halocaust and other injustices can be covered up.

[namvet]

the allies didn't buy this BS story about German civilians not knowing what was going on. that's why they were put to work cleaning it up. a lot of these guys that liberated these camps were traumatized by what they saw

[tailfins]

We must be careful in insisting NO ONE be a holocaust denier. It's the idiot's way. Only those who can't defend what they believe can't handle being questioned. My irritation is that the NAZI holocaust gets overpublicitized at the expense of the SOVIET HOLOCAUST.


the allies didn't buy this BS story about German civilians not knowing what was going on. that's why they were put to work cleaning it up. a lot of these guys that liberated these camps were traumatized by what they saw

Were they paid for their labor or did they do the cleanup as slaves?

[Lemongrass Gogulope]

the allies didn't buy this BS story about German civilians not knowing what was going on. that's why they were put to work cleaning it up. a lot of these guys that liberated these camps were traumatized by what they saw
I recently watched a documentary on netflix (I searched for it, but couldn't find the title) regarding WWII in movies. It started with Chaplin's famous mocking of Hitler, but I digress. The part that struck me was how profoundly ignorant people in Germany were regarding the events of the Holocaust until Germany aired The Holocaust MiniSeries in 1978!

It was a fascinating documentary and I'm sorry that I can't find the title.

[Lemongrass Gogulope]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8djIHQS4kyQ

you would not believe the fake and photoshopped photo's ive seen on this. posted by deniers. it was all the Jews fault.

reality

http://i62.tinypic.com/11jud7l.jpg

photos (http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/10/world-war-ii-the-holocaust/100170/)

Those photos were incredibly gruesome. I had forgotten that German civilians were forced to visit the concentration camps.

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauLiberation/aftermath03.html

[Gaffer]

Unfortunately we no longer have a free press to tell these stories. We have a muzzled, govt controlled press, in the pocket of the DNC. History repeats itself.

[DLT]

I still don't know the ins and outs of this forum and who's who and what's what, but so far--with the obvious exception of that Jaffar person--I haven't really encountered any Stormfronter-types here, and that's such a breath of fresh air!

I had to leave the last forum I was at because it was starting to fill up with anti-semites and radical conspiracy kooks--the two types of mental disorder seem to be found together all too often. I couldn't take it any longer. You folks seem sane by comparison...so far.:laugh:

I think I know exactly which forum you're referring to...lol.

[DLT]

Caliban. Have no fear whatsoever from me. My grandparents, and parents were German, and came here in the 1920's.
Truth is. I personally am proud, as an American. To say I understand, and support what Israel has been going through...since before the year I was born in 1947.

Anyone who says Israel is guilty of DEFENDING themselves, as few have tried here. Probably do not deserve the credibility, and respect they demand by allowing themselves to be so easily-led, based on endless false information I call PROPAGANDA.

Enjoy your breath of fresh air here. Many of us will help you because....WE ONLY ACCEPT Honest Facts, and prove the false ones to be jokes.

And....as I have pointed out elsewhere....anyone who finds that they're having to resort to sourcing their anti-Israel BS from known progressive, leftist and foreign propaganda outlets and websites....

is obviously too stupid to realize that, by spreading the propaganda, they have just joined the enemy (or America's enemy within).

[gabosaurus]

the allies didn't buy this BS story about German civilians not knowing what was going on. that's why they were put to work cleaning it up. a lot of these guys that liberated these camps were traumatized by what they saw

Sorry dear. I have relatives who lived Germany during WWII. They knew only what they were told. Which was nothing negative at all. The citizens who cleaned up the camps were also traumatized by what they saw. Because they knew nothing about it.

[Redrose]

Sorry dear. I have relatives who lived Germany during WWII. They knew only what they were told. Which was nothing negative at all. The citizens who cleaned up the camps were also traumatized by what they saw. Because they knew nothing about it.




I agree with that. We had extended family that lived in Germany before and during Hitler. The radio and newspapers were controlled by Hitler. They admitted to hearing terrible rumors, but said talking about them could prove fatal, and people kept quiet out of fear. So Hitler was very successful in controlling what people heard, read and said.

Germany was a Democrstic Republic just like we are (or were). The German people, when confronted with a radical nut in power, said repeatedly that nothing bad would ever happen here in Germany.....people wouldn't allow it. They were naively very wrong.

We must learn from history, or be doomed to repeat it.

[namvet]

We must be careful in insisting NO ONE be a holocaust denier. It's the idiot's way. Only those who can't defend what they believe can't handle being questioned. My irritation is that the NAZI holocaust gets overpublicitized at the expense of the SOVIET HOLOCAUST.



Were they paid for their labor or did they do the cleanup as slaves?

no they were NOT paid. come on for christ sake

[Kathianne]

I don't hate the German people, but those that say that the citizenry was 'clueless' to what was happening, at least by 1943, is only fooling themselves. Same with the French, Polish, Belgians, etc.

They may not have been able to envision the crematoriums, but they sure as hell knew that the Jews were not returning.

That's not to say they wanted the annihilation of the Jews, though many did so. Germans seemed to have learned the lesson better than most of Europe, look at France today. Still, smart Jews are pulling out of Europe in droves today and for good reasons.

[namvet]

German civilians brought to see the camps


http://i62.tinypic.com/333d0dg.jpg

didn't know huh?? well they got a good education

link (http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauLiberation/aftermath03.html)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-6tCERMLv4&feature=rec-HM-r2

[Lemongrass Gogulope]

I don't hate the German people, but those that say that the citizenry was 'clueless' to what was happening, at least by 1943, is only fooling themselves. Same with the French, Polish, Belgians, etc.

They may not have been able to envision the crematoriums, but they sure as hell knew that the Jews were not returning.

That's not to say they wanted the annihilation of the Jews, though many did so. Germans seemed to have learned the lesson better than most of Europe, look at France today. Still, smart Jews are pulling out of Europe in droves today and for good reasons.

What difference would knowing or not knowing make? (Excluding those who knew and agreed with what was happening of course).

[DLT]

My mom had a friend in Brooklyn in the sixties, who had the "numbers" tattooed on her forearm. I was about 13 and she noticed I was staring at them. She said when you're older I'll tell you about them.




Years later she did tell me. She and her parents and two siblings were arrested as Jews and sent to Dachau. Her father, mother and brother were shot before her eyes. She and her sister were taken aside. She was 14 her sister was 16. They were used, over and over by the SS for sex.
She endured terrible tortures to survive. Her sister did not.
Those numbers are a constant reminder of that horror.

My dad was in WWII and was assigned with the army photographer for a while. His photo album is remarkable. This photo was a pile of bodies in Buchenwald when the allies arrived.

The same evil, if not worse, is on the rise now. Question ....when confronted with anti-Israel loons on these forums, we seem to be trying to contain our disgust and our anger...and agree to disagree with them. But perhaps it's time we stop doing that. By tolerating this type of bigotry, aren't we also aiding and enabling that evil? By not calling out those spreading this disease of propaganda, aren't we just as guilty as the German citizens who didn't speak out, stand up and stomp that BS into the ground before it got started there?

Thoughts?

[aboutime]

The same evil, if not worse, is on the rise now. Question ....when confronted with anti-Israel loons on these forums, we seem to be trying to contain our disgust and our anger...and agree to disagree with them. But perhaps it's time we stop doing that. By tolerating this type of bigotry, aren't we also aiding and enabling that evil? By not calling out those spreading this disease of propaganda, aren't we just as guilty as the German citizens who didn't speak out, stand up and stomp that BS into the ground before it got started there?

Thoughts?

http://icansayit.com/images/amen.jpg

[aboutime]

I don't hate the German people, but those that say that the citizenry was 'clueless' to what was happening, at least by 1943, is only fooling themselves. Same with the French, Polish, Belgians, etc.

They may not have been able to envision the crematoriums, but they sure as hell knew that the Jews were not returning.

That's not to say they wanted the annihilation of the Jews, though many did so. Germans seemed to have learned the lesson better than most of Europe, look at France today. Still, smart Jews are pulling out of Europe in droves today and for good reasons.


Kathianne. My mother's oldest brother was there when they discovered those camps. I was too young to understand why he wouldn't talk about it. But, later on. After he passed. My mom told us how Uncle Ralph always kept quiet, and he became an alcoholic who always seemed to be crying, even as my other uncle came home from Korea. She told us how he remembered 'The Smell'. Nothing more. Just the 'Smell'.

[namvet]

Legislation against denying the Holocaust has been on the books in Germany since 1985, and in 1994 this law was amended. The 1985 law (Article 194, 21st) states that denying the Holocaust is an impingement of human dignity, and is defined as an offense. However, pressing charges against the offenders requires the victim's agreement.The 1994 law (Amendment to Article 130) states that denying the Holocaust is a criminal offence according to the law against incitement. This law also broadens the prohibition from the previous law, and in addition to denying the crimes of the Nazi regime and agreeing with its objectives it includes the prohibition of the use of Nazi symbols and slogans.Article 130: [13 (http://antisemitism.org.il/#_ftn13)](3) Whoever publicly, or at a meeting, denies, diminishes, or approves an act committed under the regime of National Socialism, of the kind described in Article 220A, paragraph 2, in a way likely to disturb the public peace…."Punishment according to the law:The 1985 Law: Up to one year in prison or a fineThe 1994 Law: Up to five years in prison or a fine

Legislation against antisemitism and Holocaust denial

link (http://www.antisemitism.org.il/eng/Legislation%20Against%20Antisemitism%20and%20Denia l%20of%20the%20Holocaust)

[Abbey Marie]

I still don't know the ins and outs of this forum and who's who and what's what, but so far--with the obvious exception of that Jaffar person--I haven't really encountered any Stormfronter-types here, and that's such a breath of fresh air!

I had to leave the last forum I was at because it was starting to fill up with anti-semites and radical conspiracy kooks--the two types of mental disorder seem to be found together all too often. I couldn't take it any longer. You folks seem sane by comparison...so far.:laugh:

First, welcome Caliban!

Second, we used to have at least one person who fits your description, but he was perma-banned for various reasons.

The sane thing is to leave a place populated by crazies.

[revelarts]

...It is not widely known that Hitler's extermination policies began with the widespread killing of institutionalized disabled people in Germany in the 1940s, and that the eugenics theories that were the basis for Hitler's policies originated in the United States in the 1920s. Sterilization and euthanasia were not the ideas of the Nazis. Germany, however, was the only country in which the political climate allowed materialization of the final goal of sterilization and euthanasia.

The project that carried out the extermination of children and adults with disabilities was known as "T4." The initials came from Tiergartenstrasse 4, Berlin which was the full address of the Fuhrer Chancellery. The T4 Project included four organizations: the Realms Work Committee in charge of collecting information on candidates for euthanasia from questionnaires sent to hospitals, the Realms Committee for Scientific Approach to Severe Illness Due to Heredity set up exclusively to apply euthanasia to children, the charitable company for the transport of the sick which transported patients to the killing centers, and the Charitable Foundation for Institutional Care, in charge of final disposition of the victims' remains.

At Hadamar Mental Institution, the victims were stripped, dressed in paper shirts and taken to a gas chamber where they were murdered with hydrocyanic acid gas, and the bodies moved to crematoriums by conveyer belts, six bodies to a furnace. The psychiatrist in charge at Hadamar was Dr. Adolf Wahlmann, an active member of the German Mental Hygiene Movement.


After information about the exterminations began to filter down to the German public, some members of the clergy started speaking out against the program. Hitler ordered the T4 program to stop killing patients in gas chambers. Instead the program went underground and victims were poisoned or starved to death. On May 8, 1945, the war ended in Germany. In the extermination institutes, they either kept on killing, or let the patients starve to death. As late as May 29, 1945, a four-year-old feebleminded boy was murdered in Kaufbeuren. Estimates of how many disabled people died under the Nazis range up to 250,000.


The extermination program in Nazi Germany caused eugenics theorists in the United States and Europe to backpedal on their beliefs about eliminating mental illness and congenital disabilities through euthanasia. However sterilization of people with disabilities continued to be a widespread practice well into the 1970s.


...
http://www.disabilityhistory.org/t4prog.html

The German public was aware of what Hitler was trying to do and what he was doing on various levels, "for the Aryan Race".
Like most decent and patriotic folks do, they denied or ignored or made excuses for it.
I know some decent German Folks who don't deny the holocaust at all but don't like people "bringing it up all the time.." after all "they didn't do it". and "after all it happened almost 100 years ago."

They want to be proud of Germany and can't seem to integrate the reality of the nation's horrors WITH the decent accomplishments of other parts of German history.

they want their country to be ONLY considered the hero, never villains.
When the fact is All the nations have got horrors that they need to own, both historical and current.