The Hajj

[gabosaurus]

It has taken me several years to understand what the Hajj is.
Last year, the LiveStream app used several fixed cameras to broadcast the Hajj 24 hours a day. It basically entails hundreds of thousands of pilgrims who travels to Mecca just to pray. There are no speeches, no terrorism talks, just people praying for as long as 12 hours per day.
The BBC talked to one of the Mullahs last year who proclaimed "any man who preaches hate and violence toward his fellow man can not be a Muslim. Those who kill in the name of Allah will not be welcome in Afterlife."

The Muslim couple who live across the street from us did the Hajj when they were younger. They described it as "the world's largest spiritual retreat."
I found it to be fascinating. Where else would you have hundreds of thousands of people gathered and no violent crimes of any kind? Pilgrims who don't have money for lodging sleep on the ground.

[Gunny]

It has taken me several years to understand what the Hajj is.
Last year, the LiveStream app used several fixed cameras to broadcast the Hajj 24 hours a day. It basically entails hundreds of thousands of pilgrims who travels to Mecca just to pray. There are no speeches, no terrorism talks, just people praying for as long as 12 hours per day.
The BBC talked to one of the Mullahs last year who proclaimed "any man who preaches hate and violence toward his fellow man can not be a Muslim. Those who kill in the name of Allah will not be welcome in Afterlife."

The Muslim couple who live across the street from us did the Hajj when they were younger. They described it as "the world's largest spiritual retreat."
I found it to be fascinating. Where else would you have hundreds of thousands of people gathered and no violent crimes of any kind? Pilgrims who don't have money for lodging sleep on the ground.

So ISIS, AQ, Hezbollah, Hamas and/or the PLA don't exist?

But when it was Fed Phelps, the verbal assaults on Christians telling us what haters we are were non-stop every time that idiot and his clan showed up at a funeral.

[stevecanuck]

It has taken me several years to understand what the Hajj is.
Last year, the LiveStream app used several fixed cameras to broadcast the Hajj 24 hours a day. It basically entails hundreds of thousands of pilgrims who travels to Mecca just to pray. There are no speeches, no terrorism talks, just people praying for as long as 12 hours per day.
The BBC talked to one of the Mullahs last year who proclaimed "any man who preaches hate and violence toward his fellow man can not be a Muslim. Those who kill in the name of Allah will not be welcome in Afterlife."

The Muslim couple who live across the street from us did the Hajj when they were younger. They described it as "the world's largest spiritual retreat."
I found it to be fascinating. Where else would you have hundreds of thousands of people gathered and no violent crimes of any kind? Pilgrims who don't have money for lodging sleep on the ground.

Gabby, that is simply not true. The Mullah was lying. Here are just a few verses that directly show him to be a liar.



9:111 - Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed.

2:191 - Kill (qatl) them wherever you find them...
2:216 - fighting (qatl) is obligatory for you...
4:74 - ...whoever fights (qatl) in the way of Allah, and is killed (qatl) or conquers, We shall give him a great wage.
4:76 - And those who believe fight (qatl) in the way of Allah,...
4:84 - Therefore, fight (qatl) in the way of Allah.
4:95 - Believers who stay behind, having no injury, are not equal to those who fight (jihad) in the way of Allah...
8:65 - O Prophet, urge the believers to fight (qatl).
9:5 - ...slay (qatl) the idolaters wherever you find them...
9:29 - Fight (qatl) those who neither believe in Allah...
9:30 - Allah fights (qatl) them! How perverted are they!
9:36 - ...and fight (qatl) against the unbelievers...
9:41 - ...and fight (jihad) for the Way of Allah...
9:123 - Believers, fight (qatl) the unbelievers who are near you...
33:60, 61 - If the hypocrites and those who have a disease in their hearts, and those who make a commotion in the City do not desist, We will surely urge you against them. Then they will be your neighbors for only a little (while), cursed wherever they are found, they will be seized and put to death (qatl).
61:4 - Allah loves those who fight (qatl) in His Way lining up as if they were a stacked building.

[Gunny]

Ever read the Old Testament? One's as true as the other.

There's no difference between them and us. They just are on the wrong side and where would the war machine without a war? Having to get real jobs.

[gabosaurus]

Not all Muslims are extremists. Just like not all Catholics endorse pedophilia and child molestation.
With hundreds of millions of peaceful Muslims in the world, you can't paint with such a wide brush.

Stating that AQ and ISIS represent all Muslims is like stating that Fred Phelps, David Koresh and Jim Jones represent all Christians.

[Gunny]

Not all Muslims are extremists. Just like not all Catholics endorse pedophilia and child molestation.
With hundreds of millions of peaceful Muslims in the world, you can't paint with such a wide brush.

Stating that AQ and ISIS represent all Muslims is like stating that Fred Phelps, David Koresh and Jim Jones represent all Christians.

I think that was the point I just made. :)

[gabosaurus]

I think that was the point I just made. :)

Then I totally agree with you. For one of the few times ever. :salute:

[BoogyMan]

Not all Muslims are extremists. Just like not all Catholics endorse pedophilia and child molestation.
With hundreds of millions of peaceful Muslims in the world, you can't paint with such a wide brush.

Stating that AQ and ISIS represent all Muslims is like stating that Fred Phelps, David Koresh and Jim Jones represent all Christians.

Gabby, you have tried to use Jim Jones in your anti-Christian rants before and you have had your ears pinned back more than once. Jones pretty much denounced Christianity well before he forced the sacrifice of the lives of his followers at Jonestown. STOP trying to claim Jones held to Christianity because it is a blatant and disgusting lie.

David Koresh also did not hold to Christianity. David Koresh taught that HE was the focus of the Davidians religion, not God.

Fred Phelps is the only guy you have who tries to tie his hate to the Christian religion and a cursory review of his teaching sets his followers religion well outside of Christianity.

Christianity stands in monolithic fashion against the teachings of the idiots you list here as false. The same cannot be said for the Muslim religion against the teachings of ISIS and AQ.

[BoogyMan]

Ever read the Old Testament? One's as true as the other.

There's no difference between them and us. They just are on the wrong side and where would the war machine without a war? Having to get real jobs.

The Old Testament is not Christianity, Gunny.

[Gunny]

The Old Testament is not Christianity, Gunny.

Semantics? Really?

The Holy Bible is Judeo-Christian. Hope I cleared that up for you.

[BoogyMan]

Semantics? Really?

The Holy Bible is Judeo-Christian. Hope I cleared that up for you.

Not semantics it is simple fact, my friend.

[Gunny]

Not semantics it is simple fact, my friend.

Hate who you want. Doesn't change the point a bit.

[BoogyMan]

Hate who you want. Doesn't change the point a bit.

Where have I posted that I hate anyone?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The Old Testament is not Christianity, Gunny.

The Old Testament is there as reference and proof that the prophecy of the Savior was fulfilled
completely with no misses and that mankind can not save himself be living by the LAW.
It is the weak foundation that was cast aside to build a house based upon Salvation by faith in the sacrifice of Christ. Proves nothing imperative about hate, just that man's fallen state required a sacrifice and the one in prophecy was fulfilled.

The New Testament is the foundation, recording of Christianity--all prior was a lesson being taught and recorded for future generations.

No man is free of hate. Hate is a product of man's fallen nature.
Only Salvation frees one from it's penalty. --Tyr

[gabosaurus]

Gabby, you have tried to use Jim Jones in your anti-Christian rants before and you have had your ears pinned back more than once. Jones pretty much denounced Christianity well before he forced the sacrifice of the lives of his followers at Jonestown. STOP trying to claim Jones held to Christianity because it is a blatant and disgusting lie.


Jones represented Christianity in the same way that ISIS represents Islam.
Jones began as a Christian religious leader, then broke off to begin his own view of what Christianity was. He became a Cult of Personality, the same way that ISIS and AQ are.
They are pretty much one and the same.

[stevecanuck]

...The BBC talked to one of the Mullahs last year who proclaimed "any man who preaches hate and violence toward his fellow man can not be a Muslim. Those who kill in the name of Allah will not be welcome in Afterlife."



Gabby, do you not care about defending your position? It would seem so. You posted the above quote, and I showed in no uncertain terms that it was a lie (9:111 - Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed.). Your credibility is at stake.

[Gunny]

Gabby, do you not care about defending your position? It would seem so. You posted the above quote, and I showed in no uncertain terms that it was a lie (9:111 - Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed.). Your credibility is at stake.

The lie is selecting quotes without rhyme nor reason that suit an agenda.

[gabosaurus]

Gabby, do you not care about defending your position? It would seem so. You posted the above quote, and I showed in no uncertain terms that it was a lie (9:111 - Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed.). Your credibility is at stake.

I have actually read the Quran. Like the Bible (which I have also read), you can't quote it out of context. And you can't rely on a translation provided by a hate site.
Perhaps you should contact a Quran scholar about your interpretation.

[jimnyc]

I count 7 MOAB's needed. 6 around the exterior and one directly in the middle on top of kaaba.

[jimnyc]

I have actually read the Quran. Like the Bible (which I have also read), you can't quote it out of context. And you can't rely on a translation provided by a hate site.
Perhaps you should contact a Quran scholar about your interpretation.

Quite frankly, based on your history, your own words and stances and posted knowledge of Islam and the Quran - I call BS on this one. Take a picture of your Quran, with a small note next to it proving it's yours, and do so within 5-10 minutes. :)

[stevecanuck]

Jones represented Christianity in the same way that ISIS represents Islam.


This statement couldn't be more wrong. but, even if it were true, it wouldn't matter. All you need to know to understand the motives of ISIS is that there are verses in the Qur'an that tell the faithful to fight infidels and to spread the rule of Islam. Those are the verses ISIS follows. What else do you need to know?

[stevecanuck]

I have actually read the Quran. Like the Bible (which I have also read), you can't quote it out of context. And you can't rely on a translation provided by a hate site.
Perhaps you should contact a Quran scholar about your interpretation.

That you would try to dismiss the quote I provided you by claiming it comes from a "hate site" shows how disingenuous you are. You have no idea which site I used. Look for yourself, and tell me this isn't an Islamic site: http://quran.com/9


Here's another translation from a Qur'an that was purchased at al hazar university in Cairo. Let's see you dismiss this:


God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise). They fight in His cause, and Slay and are slain.


Face it Gabby, you lost this argument. Now, are you going to admit that the mullah lied, or not?

[Gunny]

That you would try to dismiss the quote I provided you by claiming it comes from a "hate site" shows how disingenuous you are. You have no idea which site I used. Look for yourself, and tell me this isn't an Islamic site: http://quran.com/9


Here's another translation from a Qur'an that was purchased at al hazar university in Cairo. Let's see you dismiss this:


God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise). They fight in His cause, and Slay and are slain.


Face it Gabby, you lost this argument. Now, are you going to admit that the mullah lied, or not?

Not hard to dismiss it all.

Sounds no worse than the Old Testament.

[stevecanuck]

Not hard to dismiss it all.

Sounds no worse than the Old Testament.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????

How does one have anything to do with the other?

[Gunny]

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????

How does one have anything to do with the other?

Are you saying you're an authority but haven't read both books? You quote the Koran out of context by you can't quote ANYTHING from Kings?

Seems to me there was a whole of murder, intrigue and attempted genocide in the latter. How about Joshua, Moses, Jeremiah? Quite the peace-loving lads, huh?

[stevecanuck]

Are you saying you're an authority but haven't read both books? You quote the Koran out of context by you can't quote ANYTHING from Kings?

Seems to me there was a whole of murder, intrigue and attempted genocide in the latter. How about Joshua, Moses, Jeremiah? Quite the peace-loving lads, huh?

You don't do linearity I see. Pay attention. Gabby passed on a claim made by a mullah. I showed that claim to be a bare-faced lie. I'm waiting for Gabby to admit it. The end.

[Gunny]

You don't do linearity I see. Pay attention. Gabby passed on a claim made by a mullah. I showed that claim to be a bare-faced lie. I'm waiting for Gabby to admit it. The end.

What I don't do is fearmongering nor hate-filled propaganda.

What you're doing is slaying the messenger because she agrees with the message. The fact remains, the quote is from a mullah, not her. If you're waiting for her to admit you're wrong, she already did.

[BoogyMan]

Jones represented Christianity in the same way that ISIS represents Islam.
Jones began as a Christian religious leader, then broke off to begin his own view of what Christianity was. He became a Cult of Personality, the same way that ISIS and AQ are.
They are pretty much one and the same.

Only if you are so open minded your brain has fallen out. Jones represented Jones, period. Care to compare any more apples to dump trucks?

[stevecanuck]

What I don't do is fearmongering nor hate-filled propaganda.

What you're doing is slaying the messenger because she agrees with the message. The fact remains, the quote is from a mullah, not her. If you're waiting for her to admit you're wrong, she already did.

I'm only left to assume that someone must have turned your oxygen supply down too far.

[BoogyMan]

Not hard to dismiss it all.

Sounds no worse than the Old Testament.

Yeah, it does sound worse than the Old Testament. The OT only told the people of God to fight against those in Canaan, a land God was to bring judgement upon and give over to His people. The Quran teaches it's adherents to fight against any who would separate from their faith or who will not convert.

Pretty radical difference when you think about it.

[stevecanuck]

Yeah, it does sound worse than the Old Testament. The OT only told the people of God to fight against those in Canaan, a land God was to bring judgement upon and give over to His people. The Quran teaches it's adherents to fight against any who would separate from their faith or who will not convert.

Pretty radical difference when you think about it.

You've just defined Gunny's entire problem with one simple statement.

[Gunny]

Only if you are so open minded your brain has fallen out. Jones represented Jones, period. Care to compare any more apples to dump trucks?

Sure. He represents someone using religion for the wrong reasons. Claiming to represent religion when he doesn't. What was Christian about him? What was Christian about Fred Phelps? What's Christian about the KKK or any other white separatist group? Especially since Christ was an Arab. Nothing.

[BoogyMan]

Sure. He represents someone using religion for the wrong reasons. Claiming to represent religion when he doesn't. What was Christian about him? What was Christian about Fred Phelps? What's Christian about the KKK or any other white separatist group? Especially since Christ was an Arab. Nothing.

Not sure what ethnicity has to do with the discussion, but toss it in there because it doesn't matter. Christ was born a Jew.

Jones didn't act as a Christian because he had renounced Christianity. It is history and pretty clear.

The KKK comes into this discussion as a joke, surely.

[Gunny]

I'm only left to assume that someone must have turned your oxygen supply down too far.



Yeah? In other words you have no intelligent response and have resorted to personal attacks.

Put your money where your mouth is and suit up. :)

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????

How does one have anything to do with the other?

Brilliant response Steve, right on target..

It doesn't but some always like to spin onto Christians when the heat gets turned up on Islam and its policy of commanding murder! They then bring up the Crusades while leaving out the murdering taking place to Christians there . The reason for the Crusades. :laugh:
Typical spinning away, they all love to do it..-Tyr

[gabosaurus]

The KKK comes into this discussion as a joke, surely.

The KKK is a self-proclaimed "Christian organization."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/21/virginia-kkk-fliers_n_5008647.html

[NightTrain]

The KKK is a self-proclaimed "Christian organization."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/21/virginia-kkk-fliers_n_5008647.html

I think we can safely toss anything from HuffPo and MoveOn into the dumpster.

What else you got?

[Gunny]

Brilliant response Steve, right on target..

It doesn't but some always like to spin onto Christians when the heat gets turned up on Islam and its policy of commanding murder! They then bring up the Crusades while leaving out the murdering taking place to Christians there . The reason for the Crusades. :laugh:
Typical spinning away, they all love to do it..-Tyr

You practiced being this stupid, or what?

let's get something clear. You are a hate-filled ignorant fuck, who doesn't know anything and couldn't out-think a gnat. All you do is post "let's kill the Muslims". How about let's kill YOU? Your stupid ass and inability to think?

]You talk all this big game. How much combat time you got tyr? Oh, none? Gee.

What I live? Morons whose brains come undone when they actually have to pull that trigger. But that would take balls, right? None of which you have. You just volunteer the rest of us to carry out your political agenda.

You have NO idea what you're talking about.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You practiced being this stupid, or what?

let's get something clear. You are a hate-filled ignorant fuck, who doesn't know anything and couldn't out-think a gnat. All you do is post "let's kill the Muslims". How about let's kill YOU? Your stupid ass and inability to think?

]You talk all this big game. How much combat time you got tyr? Oh, none? Gee.

What I live? Morons whose brains come undone when they actually have to pull that trigger. But that would take balls, right? None of which you have. You just volunteer the rest of us to carry out your political agenda.

You have NO idea what you're talking about.

I am not the subject .. Religion is! Try to focus and put the bottle down.
Spell it S-L-O-W-L-Y, R E L I G I O N.......

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How about let's kill YOU?

^^^^^^^ An Unacceptable post made by you , Hoss. Are you delusional or what?

That's an open threat you just made..... being drunk doesn't excuse it..

I have made no reply to you at all since my last cage thread reply, days ago.. -Tyr

[aboutime]

Tyr. As a recovering Alcoholic. I recognize what is taking place with this member.

The Bottle, or whatever other source of Courage chosen by said member...is doing all of the talking (mumbling).

Making threats to other members about Killing seems to be easily overlooked here.

Best to just let the member remain, or think the member is in control.

All the STEPS in the World cannot, and will not solve such a problem. I know. I've been there.

But I also remember how miserable that life was too!

[BoogyMan]

The KKK is a self-proclaimed "Christian organization."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/21/virginia-kkk-fliers_n_5008647.html

Show me the scriptures of the New Testament that back ANY claim the KKK makes. You cannot.

The Islamist nutjobs can point to their guiding text with ease because their texts actually do tell them to murder people.

You do not now, nor have you ever had, a point in your comparison of Christianity and Islam.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Tyr. As a recovering Alcoholic. I recognize what is taking place with this member.

The Bottle, or whatever other source of Courage chosen by said member...is doing all of the talking (mumbling).

Making threats to other members about Killing seems to be easily overlooked here.

Best to just let the member remain, or think the member is in control.

All the STEPS in the World cannot, and will not solve such a problem. I know. I've been there.

But I also remember how miserable that life was too!

Being drunk does not excuse it. A lesson I finally taught my younger brother about 15 years ago.. When I stomped his ass into the ground for hitting our mother... Had he not been my brother I'd done much worse.. He didn't speak a single word to me for over three years after that but guess what--he never raised a hand at her again. I made damn sure the lesson was learned..
Every judge will tell you this, being drunk is no excuse.... I fully concur.. -Tyr

[Jeff]

I think we can safely toss anything from HuffPo and MoveOn into the dumpster.

What else you got?

Especially considering she has personally told me when I have posted from it how wrong they are :laugh:

[jimnyc]

You practiced being this stupid, or what?

let's get something clear. You are a hate-filled ignorant fuck, who doesn't know anything and couldn't out-think a gnat. All you do is post "let's kill the Muslims". How about let's kill YOU? Your stupid ass and inability to think?

]You talk all this big game. How much combat time you got tyr? Oh, none? Gee.

What I live? Morons whose brains come undone when they actually have to pull that trigger. But that would take balls, right? None of which you have. You just volunteer the rest of us to carry out your political agenda.

You have NO idea what you're talking about.

I wanted to stay out of this feud, but I have to step in with this one. However intended, we are not going to tolerate personal threats here, whether direct or indirect. I know this all stems from the personal dislike you guys have for one another. But we are still not going to tolerate written death threats of any kid.

[jimnyc]

Tyr. As a recovering Alcoholic. I recognize what is taking place with this member.

The Bottle, or whatever other source of Courage chosen by said member...is doing all of the talking (mumbling).

Making threats to other members about Killing seems to be easily overlooked here.

Best to just let the member remain, or think the member is in control.

All the STEPS in the World cannot, and will not solve such a problem. I know. I've been there.

But I also remember how miserable that life was too!

1 - Stay out of it and stop trying to rile people up, it's none of your business.

2 - "easily overlooked here" - shove it up your hole dude. This happened last evening and I just crawled out of bed and am on my first coffee. I don't need your crap about how we overlook things while I'm trying to effing sleep.