20/20

[Perianne]

I had a discussion recently at work about hindsight.

Let's say you could board a time machine and go back for one minute to a German prison in 1923. You encounter Adolf Hitler alone in his prison cell. You find you have a gun in your possession. You have only a few seconds to decide whether to use the gun to kill the 34 year-old Hitler and save humanity from this cruel man.

Would you kill him?

What if you accidentally turned the year dial to 1903 instead of 1923? Now you encounter Hitler as a 14 year-old? How about 1893 and you have the chance to kill Hitler when he was 4 years old?

What would you do?

[NightTrain]

If time travel were possible, it would prove that fate is not set and that the course of history can be altered. Just your presence there would alter things, let alone any acts to change the course of history.

No, I wouldn't ice Hitler until his course was clear with the rise of the Nazi party.

[WiccanLiberal]

If time travel were possible, it would prove that fate is not set and that the course of history can be altered. Just your presence there would alter things, let alone any acts to change the course of history.

No, I wouldn't ice Hitler until his course was clear with the rise of the Nazi party.

Problem is that many attempts were made on his life once he was on the rise and he had a security wall around him by then as well as some hideously good luck. My question would be, if you do kill him, what happens to fill the void? His party answered a need of the German people at the time of his rise to power. That vacuum would have to be filled by someone else. Might the result have been better or worse? One could fill volumes with the potential outcomes.

[NightTrain]

Well, another thing to consider is that if Hitler wouldn't have done what he did, the world would look very different now. Not that what he did was commendable, by any means.

But there wouldn't be the nation of Israel, and Stalin wouldn't have been nearly as powerful as he ended up being - the Cold War might not have occurred.

[jimnyc]

Knowing what that evil bastard grew up to be, I'm afraid I'd have to stomp out the 4 year old lad! I know a few other folks that may not have seen the future too. :)

[Perianne]

Knowing what that evil bastard grew up to be, I'm afraid I'd have to stomp out the 4 year old lad! I know a few other folks that may not have seen the future too. :)

And thus my somewhat support for abortion. Doesn't abortion rid society of future bad seeds?

[red state]

Wow! I was interested in this thread from a hypothetical perspective, until the abortion issue was so sloppily brought up instead of the interesting possibilities of saving the world from the ilks such as Hitler (whom we KNOW or would have KNOWN to be or become a MONSTER. What is worse, the subject of abortion was handled as some sort of avocation for the murder of infants for whom we would actually need a time machine to see the GREAT GOOD these abortion candidates would probably have done had they not been murdered. I almost hate that I felt so compelled to point this out that I didn't simply pass on another thread, unworthy of my time. Otherwise, I would have passed on this thread after being so deeply disappointed in the title, the conduct and the sloppy manner for which the thread took a turn.

The tactical mission or endeavor by abortionist in diversions from fact, scheming or, in this case, stunts is not "somewhat" disgusting but entirely inappropriate.....just as their supporting the murder of the unborn. Such conduct from abortionists never cease to amaze me. My support for FREE WILL is strong for the unborn and is not "somewhat" supportive but WHOLE and JUST in the crusade to stop this modern day holocaust.

My thinking and careful consideration on the subject of abortion is that (IF) pro-lifer's are correct and if the abortionists had any doubt that they were wrong, wouldn't those who support abortion be FAR worse than even Hitler? IF a jury had reasonable doubt regarding the innocence of an accused murderer, shouldn't this concept be applied even more to an innocent human being who has yet to be born and who's only crime is in their being an "inconvenience". If there is reasonable doubt over the "fetus" being a "mass of tissue" or a possible human being (AND THERE MOST CERTAINLY IS), wouldn't it be wise, ethical and humane to follow the old saying: "WHEN IN DOUBT, LEAVE OUT".

We all have choices and those choices often times make for a very hard, prickly beds from which there is no rest or justification.

[avatar4321]

I don't think I'd let Hitler make me a murderer.

Tough choice though.

[Perianne]

Wow! I was interested in this thread from a hypothetical perspective, until the abortion issue was so sloppily brought up instead of the interesting possibilities of saving the world from the ilks such as Hitler (whom we KNOW or would have KNOWN to be or become a MONSTER. What is worse, the subject of abortion was handled as some sort of avocation for the murder of infants for whom we would actually need a time machine to see the GREAT GOOD these abortion candidates would probably have done had they not been murdered. I almost hate that I felt so compelled to point this out that I didn't simply pass on another thread, unworthy of my time. Otherwise, I would have passed on this thread after being so deeply disappointed in the title, the conduct and the sloppy manner for which the thread took a turn.

The tactical mission or endeavor by abortionist in diversions from fact, scheming or, in this case, stunts is not "somewhat" disgusting but entirely inappropriate.....just as their supporting the murder of the unborn. Such conduct from abortionists never cease to amaze me. My support for FREE WILL is strong for the unborn and is not "somewhat" supportive but WHOLE and JUST in the crusade to stop this modern day holocaust.

My thinking and careful consideration on the subject of abortion is that (IF) pro-lifer's are correct and if the abortionists had any doubt that they were wrong, wouldn't those who support abortion be FAR worse than even Hitler? IF a jury had reasonable doubt regarding the innocence of an accused murderer, shouldn't this concept be applied even more to an innocent human being who has yet to be born and who's only crime is in their being an "inconvenience". If there is reasonable doubt over the "fetus" being a "mass of tissue" or a possible human being (AND THERE MOST CERTAINLY IS), wouldn't it be wise, ethical and humane to follow the old saying: "WHEN IN DOUBT, LEAVE OUT".

We all have choices and those choices often times make for a very hard, prickly beds from which there is no rest or justification.

red state.

I agree that abortion is a great evil. However, in the big picture, I believe that liberalism is the greater evil. This is my belief: Liberals beget liberals. There have been about 55 million abortions since 1973.

This is also my belief: anyone who willingly has an abortion is committing murder. Anyone who commits murder has to answer for that murder to the man upstairs. Regardless, the "sloppy" transition to abortion was not sloppy at all but was the intention of this thread.

This is another of my beliefs: I admit I am morally wrong with this thinking. Without abortion, I believe a large percentage of those victims would have grown up to vote for liberalism and to beget even more liberalism.

I have to ask: which is the greater evil? Liberalism or abortion? I believe liberalism is the greater evil and thus find myself in the immoral position of accepting abortion as a means to prevent the total destruction of this country.

Imagine every single election dominated by liberals.

I know many liberals and like them as people. And I do not intend to insult liberals personally. I simply believe they are misguided to the point of destruction of this country. This is not the country I grew up in.

So, back to the question. If you could kill Hitler as a little boy (or as a fetus).... would you?

[indago]

Every now and then somebody "disappears". Nobody knows where they went, and nobody can find them. Is it possible that somebody from the future came and disposed of them because at some future time they did a great injustice?

[Kathianne]

Pro-abortion and eugenics, what a novel idea. :rolleyes:

http://theblacksphere.net/2014/02/margaret-sangers-dream-come-true-eugenics-abortion/#


...Such narratives lend to the Margaret Sanger reverence by new guard feminists, those women who prioritize self and convenience over the preciousness of life. Several generations of women have been raised to view sacrifice as demeaning, and new life as a potential threat to a self-centered career.The real Margaret Sanger (http://creation.com/margaret-sanger-darwinian-eugenicist#endRef37) espoused sinister motives for advancing birth control and abortion: she fully endorsed eugenics for the betterment of race and society.

Sanger was a Darwinist who embraced a utilitarian view of human life, and proposed to rid our nation of the criminal element and “inferior races” through abortion and breeding programs (http://creation.com/margaret-sanger-darwinian-eugenicist#endRef37).


To deal with the problem of resistance among the black population, Sanger recruited black doctors, nurses, ministers and social workers ‘in order to gain black patients’ trust’ in order ‘to limit or even erase the black presence in America’.


And this woman founded the predecessor of Planned Parenthood. Leave her name out of the story, and a reader might assume it was a Nazi narrative.
Now, 93 years after Margaret Sanger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger) founded the American Birth Control League, 55 years since she served as the President of Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Sanger’s dream is being realized. Black babies are being slaughtered at an unprecedented rate.

...

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2014/02/21/black-abortion-sanger-planned-parenthood/


...According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html), some 30% of all abortions in the United States are performed on black women, and another 25% are performed on Hispanic women. Rev. John J. Raphael of Howard University has calculated that approximately 13 million black children have been killed before birth since Roe v. Wade, representing a population decrease in the black community of nearly one quarter. Almost 40% of all black pregnancies currently end in abortion.This was the dream of the population control eugenicists’ whose heirs would eventually force abortion into the American mainstream. The early proponents of population control in the United States were eugenicists like Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, who stated (http://www.lifenews.com/2013/03/11/10-eye-opening-quotes-from-planned-parenthood-founder-margaret-sanger/), “[We should] apply a stern and rigid policy of sterilization and segregation to that grade of population whose progeny is tainted, or whose inheritance is such that objectionable traits may be transmitted to offspring.”

In 1922, she expanded on this perverse idea: “We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don’t want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.”

Sanger may not have targeted blacks alone for population control, but if targeting poverty meant targeting blacks and other racial minorities, she was certainly for it. And while Sanger was anti-abortion – she saw birth control as a preventive measure against abortion – she believed that population control in the black community was a necessity. Her heirs would broaden her concern with birth control into a program for full-scale abortion legalization.

This program was ineffective for decades, thanks to the rise of the black middle class and the stability of the black family structure. By the mid-1960s, half of black Americans had moved into the middle class, according to Kay Hymowitz (http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_3_black_family.html); in 1965, just 24 percent of black children were born to single mothers. Those numbers still lagged behind the statistics for white Americans, which prompted the left to propose an entire system of government intervention to rectify the imbalance.

The result, however, was precisely the opposite of what was intended: thanks to the rise of the welfare state, which incentivized single motherhood, as well as a cultural shift discarding traditional family structure as a standard to be emulated, the black single motherhood rate skyrocketed. Black entry into the middle class stalled. Today, 73 percent of all children born in the black community are born out of wedlock. According to the Kaiser Family Foundation (http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceethnicity/), 35 percent of black Americans live in poverty. In 1966, the black poverty rate was 41 percent (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/jul/29/bill-oreilly/bill-oreilly-says-poverty-hasnt-budged-1965-despit/).

...

[darin]

Because Hitler 'happened' anything you did in the past would contribute to everything that's happened, because it's already happened.

You guys should watch 12 Monkeys :)

[jimnyc]

Because Hitler 'happened' anything you did in the past would contribute to everything that's happened, because it's already happened.

You guys should watch 12 Monkeys :)

I never even heard of that flick till a few years back. Then I watched it and loved it!! Excellent flick!

[darin]

It's now a series on SyFy network :)

[revelarts]

time travel stories are sometimes fun but the paradox thing always bugs me.

But to answer the 1st soul damning lifeboat-esques question.

My desire is not to kill people who havent committed any crimes so i'd want to add one thing to your scenario. If Hitler sees me POP-into and Out-of time outta nowhere.
I'd commit the lesser sin and Lie to him that i was an angel from God and I'm giving him a chance to repent.
Aside from lying that extreme I'd tell him to remember this gun and how i I got here. that at anytime if he begins to murder or harm others I'll be back to finish is Arse.
Or maybe give him other targets, tell him he's destined to be the greatest spies and assassin in history and his job is to kill Stalin and Mussolini, in that order, to save the Germany and the world. he's be like like inglorious bastards from Germany in Russia and Italy. "Ya I'm form southern italian".

[darin]

...and what if Hitler killed somebody who would be three-times the despot? And what if due to hitler being killed I would never have been born? If that's the case I wouldn't have been able to go back in time to kill him; yet I just did.

[Perianne]

Pro-abortion and eugenics, what a novel idea. :rolleyes:

http://theblacksphere.net/2014/02/margaret-sangers-dream-come-true-eugenics-abortion/#

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2014/02/21/black-abortion-sanger-planned-parenthood/

Again, Kathianne, I consider abortion to be a great evil. And while I subscribe to Darwinism and some aspects of eugenics, I don't believe it should be forced; it should be, if adhered to at all, voluntary.

I ask you to put aside for a moment the cruelty of abortion and answer this: which is the greater evil? Abortion or liberalism? If your answer is abortion, then you must factor in that liberalism is the vehicle that brought us abortion.

[Kathianne]

and if your definition of 'liberalism' isn't everyone else's? Funny how you're keeping company with Hitler in the belief system.

[fj1200]

What would you do?

How about advocating against a disastrous Treaty of Versailles? How about Hoover not signing Smoot-Hawley? How about FDR not doubling down on the Great Depression? How about any number of things that would have not created the conditions that gave rise to Hitler without deciding at which point you should kill him?

And what is worse; an incompetent, paranoid Hitler or a competent leader that wouldn't have made the same mistakes?

[avatar4321]

Because Hitler 'happened' anything you did in the past would contribute to everything that's happened, because it's already happened.

You guys should watch 12 Monkeys :)

Only if time is linear and static. It could be all wobbly-probably.

Time travel. It's a cornucopia of disturbing concepts.

Guess where this is from:

"I figured it all out. She can't be my grandmother."

"Of course she is you idiot!"

"Then whose my grandfather?"

"YOU ARE!"

[red state]

time travel stories are sometimes fun but the paradox thing always bugs me.

But to answer the 1st soul damning lifeboat-esques question.

My desire is not to kill people who havent committed any crimes so i'd want to add one thing to your scenario. If Hitler sees me POP-into and Out-of time outta nowhere.
I'd commit the lesser sin and Lie to him that i was an angel from God and I'm giving him a chance to repent.
Aside from lying that extreme I'd tell him to remember this gun and how i I got here. that at anytime if he begins to murder or harm others I'll be back to finish is Arse.
Or maybe give him other targets, tell him he's destined to be the greatest spies and assassin in history and his job is to kill Stalin and Mussolini, in that order, to save the Germany and the world. he's be like like inglorious bastards from Germany in Russia and Italy. "Ya I'm form southern italian".

Good thinking....perhaps someone did visit Hitler and convinced him that they were from the future and wanted to tell him that his not attacking Russia was his downfall.......so, he fell for it and attacked Russia (thereby getting it from BOTH sides). Perhaps he was so paranoid due to someone in the future telling him that those he least expected to betray him, WOULD betray him. The really evil ones that he knew were as sneaky and evil as he would never be suspect to betrayal cuz he was expecting it. DEEEEeeeeeeeeeeppppppp!!!!!

[red state]

Every now and then somebody "disappears". Nobody knows where they went, and nobody can find them. Is it possible that somebody from the future came and disposed of them because at some future time they did a great injustice?


And I thought what REV wrote or my reply to REV was deep. WOW! Perhaps B.O. will disappear at any time for the GREAT crimes against this Nation!!! Everybody; put on your aluminum caps and make a collect call to the Future Police and put in your request. Perhaps the Future Police can roll us all back to 2008 and give Conservatives something like a REAGAN to vote for. They could at least roll us back to when that big eared SOB almost pulled a Gerald Ford off of Air Force One. Maybe this time, they'll sneak a banana peel in and do the job right!

[red state]

red state.

I agree that abortion is a great evil. However, in the big picture, I believe that liberalism is the greater evil. This is my belief: Liberals beget liberals. There have been about 55 million abortions since 1973.

This is also my belief: anyone who willingly has an abortion is committing murder. Anyone who commits murder has to answer for that murder to the man upstairs. Regardless, the "sloppy" transition to abortion was not sloppy at all but was the intention of this thread.

This is another of my beliefs: I admit I am morally wrong with this thinking. Without abortion, I believe a large percentage of those victims would have grown up to vote for liberalism and to beget even more liberalism.

I have to ask: which is the greater evil? Liberalism or abortion? I believe liberalism is the greater evil and thus find myself in the immoral position of accepting abortion as a means to prevent the total destruction of this country.

Imagine every single election dominated by liberals.

I know many liberals and like them as people. And I do not intend to insult liberals personally. I simply believe they are misguided to the point of destruction of this country. This is not the country I grew up in.

So, back to the question. If you could kill Hitler as a little boy (or as a fetus).... would you?

I appreciate your response and understand your point a bit better. I still don't appreciate beating around the bush, however. As for the question; I would kill Hitler if given the chance but would only do so after he proving that there is no change in him or, as in REV's reply, tried to change him or scare the B-Jesus out of him. I am not one for condemning others before they've committed a crime as in "MINORITY REPORT" and believe REV pinned it pretty good (much like the "BOYS FROM BRAZIL".
https://youtu.be/H58H_kAZZsY *BE SURE TO WATCH 1:45-END.

[red state]

Influence and intervention goes a long way......so does compassion and doing the right thing at the right time for the right reason.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I'd kill Hitler without a micro-second of hesitation.
Why go back in time if not to stop the murder of millions?
I like black and white decisions. Good vs. Evil is not some fantasy--rather its more real than the reality we humans so readily want to face and are clueless about IMHO.
I'd shoot Hitler, Stalin and Mao, let God sort it out later.
Judge me later too. I know those three murdered over a hundred million people.
I'd kill 'em with my bare hands and not lose a minute's sleep about it.. Fact..
I believe in moral absolutes.
For only way for there to not be any moral absolutes is for their to be no God!
I'll not ride that wagon over the cliff.-Tyr

[darin]

I'd kill Hitler without a micro-second of hesitation.
Why go back in time if not to stop the murder of millions?
I like black and white decisions. Good vs. Evil is not some fantasy--rather its more real than the reality we humans so readily want to face and are clueless about IMHO.
I'd shoot Hitler, Stalin and Mao, let God sort it out later.
Judge me later too. I know those three murdered over a hundred million people.
I'd kill 'em with my bare hands and not lose a minute's sleep about it.. Fact..
I believe in moral absolutes.
For only way for there to not be any moral absolutes is for their to be no God!
I'll not ride that wagon over the cliff.-Tyr

...perhaps leading to the murder of BILLIONS? Perhaps leading to all kinds of horrible-er things than those guys. Is it morally right for your to risk the death/murder of say, twice as many due to short-sighted impulse killing?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

...perhaps leading to the murder of BILLIONS? Perhaps leading to all kinds of horrible-er things than those guys. Is it morally right for your to risk the death/murder of say, twice as many due to short-sighted impulse killing?

If infinite possibilities exist then why decide to go with the very bad ones and not act to prevent the known ones?
A moral absolute is - good triumphs over evil despite man existing in his fallen state.
"When good men do nothing evil triumphs", is a truism my friend. -Tyr

[NightTrain]

Only if time is linear and static. It could be all wobbly-probably.

Time travel. It's a cornucopia of disturbing concepts.

Guess where this is from:

"I figured it all out. She can't be my grandmother."

"Of course she is you idiot!"

"Then whose my grandfather?"

"YOU ARE!"

Futurama! Loved that show.

That was Fry and the Professor after Fry banged his grandma in the past at Roswell.

"Yep. I did the nasty in the past-y"

[revelarts]

And I thought what REV wrote or my reply to REV was deep. WOW! Perhaps B.O. will disappear at any time for the GREAT crimes against this Nation!!! Everybody; put on your aluminum caps and make a collect call to the Future Police and put in your request. Perhaps the Future Police can roll us all back to 2008 and give Conservatives something like a REAGAN to vote for. They could at least roll us back to when that big eared SOB almost pulled a Gerald Ford off of Air Force One. Maybe this time, they'll sneak a banana peel in and do the job right!
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/ronaldreaganronpaul-screengrab.jpg

[avatar4321]

I'd kill Hitler without a micro-second of hesitation.
Why go back in time if not to stop the murder of millions?
I like black and white decisions. Good vs. Evil is not some fantasy--rather its more real than the reality we humans so readily want to face and are clueless about IMHO.
I'd shoot Hitler, Stalin and Mao, let God sort it out later.
Judge me later too. I know those three murdered over a hundred million people.
I'd kill 'em with my bare hands and not lose a minute's sleep about it.. Fact..
I believe in moral absolutes.
For only way for there to not be any moral absolutes is for their to be no God!
I'll not ride that wagon over the cliff.-Tyr

Why go back in time? Why to learn of course.

[red state]

I'm not calling any names here or asking anyone in particular who they'd kill and who they wouldn't under a blk & wht sunglasses but what about B.O. He's killed many Americans and will probably kill many more through his dealing and negotiating with our enemy. He's invited disease and has done his dead level best to destroy America and make it another third world country hell hole.

Should he or BergDAWG faced blk & wht judgement from a time traveler? Would you go back in time an give them a visit. Should a lil' boy in Hawaii be found dead on the beach or this same boy from Hawaii face the barrel of a gun while he's smoking pot and doing the nasty with that rich boy from one of those muSLUM countries he loves so damn much? I wish he had broken his freakin' neck while doing that tap-dance-jig he does off of AF1 but I don't think he has earned a bullet like Lincoln did. Of course, he has gotten many (MANY) of our BEST killed in the last 6+ years so the quicker he goes, the safer our BEST will be.......and AMERICA.

What say ye.....or anyone else? What degree of 'crime' or disaster does it take to earn a Time Traveler's death sentence? Could a drunk driver who willingly got behind the wheel after many DUI's get the 'thumbs down' after he killed your daughter in a wreck? What about a dad who is distracted while driving a big rig on his way home for Christmas and kills 73 kids on a bus? If we follow the logic of this thread, killing him will save those 75 innocent children on a bus. Evil or not.....this thread is about abortion and the hypothetical of saving lives by deleting another LIFE that caused the death of the lives (provided by the act of abortion).

I'm surprised that there was no mention of The Boys from Brazil. It was a bit cheesy (even for its time) but the concept was amazing for its time. I loved they way it left you wondering. Was the clone of Hitler able to become someone other than Hitler or was this a destiny that can NOT be broken?

This wasn't directed at REV but I'd appreciate Rev's take on this as well.

[Perianne]

An article about the very Hitler question I opened with:

http://hotair.com/archives/2015/04/09/confirmed-men-are-more-willing-than-women-to-go-back-in-time-and-kill-hitler/

[Perianne]

Imagine going back to 1861 and making Lincoln an offer he couldn't refuse. The south would be saved and all the crap that happened this past week would not affect me because I would be living in the CSA. The USA would be a third-world liberal hellhole while the CSA would be the greatest world power.

[indago]

Imagine going back to 1861 and making Lincoln an offer he couldn't refuse. The south would be saved and all the crap that happened this past week would not affect me because I would be living in the CSA. The USA would be a third-world liberal hellhole while the CSA would be the greatest world power.

Yes, but there might be other consequences...

I am recalling a short story I read several years ago about a small team of scientists who built a hover platform to go back into the past. They were warned to not touch anything. They went back into prehistoric times and observed the foliage, hovering over the ground. A bug landed on the platform and one of the scientists stepped on it and kicked it off the platform. When they got back to the present time, they couldn't read the signs, and couldn't understand the words of the reception group that greeted them.



.

[Perianne]

Yes, but there might be other consequences...

You are right. There are always unforeseen consequences.

[red state]

Imagine going back to 1861 and making Lincoln an offer he couldn't refuse. The south would be saved and all the crap that happened this past week would not affect me because I would be living in the CSA. The USA would be a third-world liberal hellhole while the CSA would be the greatest world power.

Yep....and we still would have landed on the moon, kicked Hitler's @$$ and had the good sense to stay out of Korea, Vietnam or Iraq *(unless we were prepared to go ALL IN). On a bad note we have a problem with a NORTH, WEST & SOUTHERN border instead of just one with folks trying to get in. :laugh::rolleyes::beer:

[fj1200]

The USA would be a third-world liberal hellhole while the CSA would be the greatest world power.

Do you mean like how Massachusetts is a hellhole and Mississippi is a bastion of commerce and wealth? Nevertheless the CSA was a society based on cheap labor and oppression. Do you think that is superior to the USA based on innovation and automation?

[Perianne]

Do you mean like how Massachusetts is a hellhole and Mississippi is a bastion of commerce and wealth? Nevertheless the CSA was a society based on cheap labor and oppression. Do you think that is superior to the USA based on innovation and automation?

I do think Mississippi is superior to Massachusetts.

[fj1200]

I do think Mississippi is superior to Massachusetts.

Almost any objective measure would put you in the minority.

[indago]

Do you mean like how Massachusetts is a hellhole and Mississippi is a bastion of commerce and wealth? Nevertheless the CSA was a society based on cheap labor and oppression. Do you think that is superior to the USA based on innovation and automation?

"the CSA was a society based on cheap labor and oppression"

Hmmm! Sounds like American employers who hire illegal aliens...

The more things change, the more they stay the same...



.