darin
05-15-2015, 12:36 PM
I'm studying the Decent of Christ. The gist of it is this: Upon Christ's physical death, his soul entered Hades/death/prison/hell and he preached to the souls contained therein - bringing them from that place into heaven.
Many, Many highly educated people will argue various points of what the scripture "REALLY" means vs what is just written. Here's a key portion in several major translations:
1 Peter 3:18-22The Message (MSG) *Caveat - The Message is a paraphrase, not a translation. However, because of that fact it's often the best way to understand the broader point.
13-18 If with heart and soul you’re doing good, do you think you can be stopped? Even if you suffer for it, you’re still better off. Don’t give the opposition a second thought. Through thick and thin, keep your hearts at attention, in adoration before Christ, your Master. Be ready to speak up and tell anyone who asks why you’re living the way you are, and always with the utmost courtesy. Keep a clear conscience before God so that when people throw mud at you, none of it will stick. They’ll end up realizing that they’re the ones who need a bath. It’s better to suffer for doing good, if that’s what God wants, than to be punished for doing bad. That’s what Christ did definitively: suffered because of others’ sins, the Righteous One for the unrighteous ones. He went through it all—was put to death and then made alive—to bring us to God.
19-22 He went and proclaimed God’s salvation to earlier generations who ended up in the prison of judgment because they wouldn’t listen. You know, even though God waited patiently all the days that Noah built his ship, only a few were saved then, eight to be exact—saved from the water by the water. The waters of baptism do that for you, not by washing away dirt from your skin but by presenting you through Jesus’ resurrection before God with a clear conscience. Jesus has the last word on everything and everyone, from angels to armies. He’s standing right alongside God, and what he says goes.
1 Peter 3:18-20New International Version (NIV)
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[a] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
1 Peter 3:18-20King James Version (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:18-20Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
18 For also Christ once died for our sins, he just for unjust, that he should offer to God us [that he should offer us to God], made dead in flesh, but made quick in Spirit.
19 For which thing he came in Spirit, and also to them that were closed together in prison;
20 which were sometime unbelieveful, when they abided the patience of God in the days of Noah, when the ship was made [when the ark, or ship, was made], in which a few, that is to say, eight souls were made safe by water.
1 Peter 3:18-20Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)
Because Christ Himself Suffered To Bring Us To God, And Is Now Glorified By God
18 Because Christ also suffered once-for-all for sins— a righteous One for unrighteous ones— in order that He might bring you to God, having been put-to-death in the flesh but made-alive[a] by the Spirit, 19 ... by Whom[c] also[d] having gone, He proclaimed[e] to the spirits[f] in prison— 20 ones having disobeyed formerly when the patience of God was waiting in the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared,... in which a few (that is, eight souls) were brought-safely through the water,
Footnotes:
a.1 Peter 3:18 Or, given life.
b.1 Peter 3:18 Or, in the Spirit; or, in spirit, in His spirit; or, in the realm of the spirit.
c.1 Peter 3:19 That is, the Spirit. Or, in which. That is, in His spirit; or, in the state of being dead in the flesh but alive in spirit.
d.1 Peter 3:19 Or even; that is, by Whom having gone, He even proclaimed.
e.1 Peter 3:19 Or, made a proclamation.
f.1 Peter 3:19 That is, people; or, angels.
[b]1 Peter 3:18-201599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
18 [a]For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, [c]that he might bring us to God, [d]and was put to death concerning the [e]flesh, but was quickened by the spirit.
19 [f]By [g]the which he also went, and preached unto the [h]spirits that are in prison.
20 Which were in time passed disobedient, when [i]once the long suffering of God abode in the days of Noah, while the Ark was preparing, wherein few, that is, eight [j]souls were saved in the water.
Footnotes:
a.1 Peter 3:18 A proof of either of the rules, by the example of Christ himself our chief pattern who was afflicted, not for his own sins (which were none) but for ours, and that according to his Father’s decree.
b.1 Peter 3:18 An argument taken of comparison: Christ the just suffered for us that are unjust, and shall it grieve us who are unjust to suffer for the just’s cause?
c.1 Peter 3:18 Another argument being partly taken of things coupled together, to wit, because Christ bringeth us to his Father that same way that he went himself, and partly from the cause efficient: to wit, because Christ is not only set before us for an example to follow, but also he holdeth us up by his virtue in all the difficulties of this life, until he bring us to his Father.
d.1 Peter 3:18 Another argument taken of the happy end of these afflictions, wherein also Christ goeth before us both in example and virtues, as one who suffered most grievous torments even unto death, although but in one part only of him, to wit, in the flesh or man’s nature, but yet became conqueror by virtue of his divinity.
e.1 Peter 3:18 As touching his manhood, for his body was dead, and his soul felt the sorrows of death.
f.1 Peter 3:19 A secret objection: Christ indeed might do this, but what is that to us? yet (saith the Apostle) for Christ hath showed forth this virtue in all ages both to the preservation of the godly, were they never so few and miserable, and to revenge the rebellion of his enemies, as it appeareth by the history of the flood: for Christ is he which in those days (when God through his patience appointed a time of repentance to the world) was present not in corporal presence, but by his divine virtue, preaching repentance even by the mouth of Noah himself who then prepared the Ark, to those disobedient spirits which are now in prison waiting for the full recompence of their rebellion, and saved those few (that is, eight only persons) in the water.
g.1 Peter 3:19 By the virtue of which Spirit, that is to say of the divinity: therefore this word, Spirit, cannot in this place be taken for the soul, unless we say, that Christ was raised up again, and quickened by the virute of his soul.
h.1 Peter 3:19 He calleth them Spirits, in respect of his time, not in respect of the time that they were in the flesh.
i.1 Peter 3:20 This word (once) showeth that there was a furthermost day appointed, and if that were once past, there should be no more.
j.1 Peter 3:20 Men.
Okay
While some differ slightly, what we have in essence is this: Christ died, preached to those imprisoned - those who at one point would not listen. Christ affected the souls of those long-since dead - in some capacity.
Some would believe Christ offered "salvation" to those who had died before his sacrifice. Others teach Christ went into 'that place' for one reason - because until Christ, "the righteous" would not be within the presence of God - but they were sent to a holding-tank of sorts. And it was to those who died righteously that he preached and brought into the REAL heaven.
As you read the following - I talk to think. That is to say when I am thinking about possibilities I express the thoughts verbally. Doing this serves to help organize my thoughts and help me reach the most-likely truth about a given situation.
Okay. Here goes.
Facts: Christ existed. God exists. Heaven exists. God loves mankind. God does not want ANYONE to "perish" (spend eternity in Hell, etc.). God operates outside 'time' - that is to say, God can be, and is at every point in time from the beginning until the end. Except to use those labels (beginning and end) presents a linear reference of time I think is not real but humans present time in that way to help keep our brains from exploding.
Assumptions: Time is measured correctly only by those perceiving it. However, each perception of time IS valid and true. As an example - the light from our nearest star - Alpha Centauri takes about 4 years to reach our solar system - to reach us. When we see the light we are seeing the light as it looked four years ago. If there was a planet, with people, near there, and we had a telescope, we'd see people moving and walking FOUR YEARS into their history - but for us, they'd be doing those things NOW. Right now. And vice-versa. That planet, looking at us, would see us four years into our past - although for them, they'd be looking at LIVE TV, so to speak. Further - when in Heaven or Hell the soul does not age. One "second" - let's say 'one moment' in either place could be a billion years on earth or 20 minutes. No linkage exists between the two places.
Follow me?
Back to God. Christ. All that.
I think Hell has to exist as taught or a lot of Christians will get [B]PISSED. If folks "get to sin" and still get to heaven, what GOOD is it being a good/better person? Now - I'll addres that in another post - but just think about that for a bit...
Taking things at face value, Christ could have moved into Hell and there found unbelievers and moved them away from their torment into a place of non-torment. If Christ did that, Hell - or the Grave - or whatever, should be empty. Yup. Christ would have moved every soul who ever existed or ever will exist because every soul that would exist or has existed is already there in Heaven or in Hell because those places do not exist within our constraints of linear time. That means when folks die and go wherever, they are immediately 'back then', too - at the point Christ came to do whatever he did. Because there's no 'time' there. So everyone was there that ever will be there. I'm getting a headache.
And think about this - WHY does God know the future for all mankind? Easy. He's already there. "Right now" (which doesn’t really make sense, but for the sake of communication) God is there - at the 'end' of everything - and he's at every point in between. So God knows what WILL happen because right now (again, cant be technically correct to use that term) God is there looking at it. SO....to those he FOREKNEW, he predestined to enter Heaven. That is to say, because God can already see who will accept him, he places situations and he drives actions and hearts in a way where people must choose the right path that brings them to the conclusion they are already at - in some point in time. (Mindbomb).
Further - I see implication Christ's actions brought salvation to the just and unjust. Said another way, Christ brought-right the sins of those living and dead and yet to be born. Those folks - whether they accept it or not - their "sins" are forgiven and the link between them and God has been and is restored.
Couple of wildcard questions:
...and if souls can be offered forgiveness - and remember, the bible uses 'spirits' - why can't satan? Why is God unable or unwilling to forgive Lucifer?
...Why does the sin of adam and eve damn all mankind forever without their knowledge or culpability yet Christ's atonement does not do the same?
....Further - Why is God such a loser in terms of numbers-of-souls? Traditional Christianity teaches only a FEW - relatively speaking - souls end up in Heaven as compared to Hell. Why would God let The Devil "win"?
....Lastly - and related to above - if God is all-powerful, his will must reflect reality. For things to end up the way they end up things MUST happen that lead to the eventual conclusion. In that regard, we have little TRUE choice. So - If God says "I am willing that NONE should perish" - why do so many perish?
Many, Many highly educated people will argue various points of what the scripture "REALLY" means vs what is just written. Here's a key portion in several major translations:
1 Peter 3:18-22The Message (MSG) *Caveat - The Message is a paraphrase, not a translation. However, because of that fact it's often the best way to understand the broader point.
13-18 If with heart and soul you’re doing good, do you think you can be stopped? Even if you suffer for it, you’re still better off. Don’t give the opposition a second thought. Through thick and thin, keep your hearts at attention, in adoration before Christ, your Master. Be ready to speak up and tell anyone who asks why you’re living the way you are, and always with the utmost courtesy. Keep a clear conscience before God so that when people throw mud at you, none of it will stick. They’ll end up realizing that they’re the ones who need a bath. It’s better to suffer for doing good, if that’s what God wants, than to be punished for doing bad. That’s what Christ did definitively: suffered because of others’ sins, the Righteous One for the unrighteous ones. He went through it all—was put to death and then made alive—to bring us to God.
19-22 He went and proclaimed God’s salvation to earlier generations who ended up in the prison of judgment because they wouldn’t listen. You know, even though God waited patiently all the days that Noah built his ship, only a few were saved then, eight to be exact—saved from the water by the water. The waters of baptism do that for you, not by washing away dirt from your skin but by presenting you through Jesus’ resurrection before God with a clear conscience. Jesus has the last word on everything and everyone, from angels to armies. He’s standing right alongside God, and what he says goes.
1 Peter 3:18-20New International Version (NIV)
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[a] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
1 Peter 3:18-20King James Version (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:18-20Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
18 For also Christ once died for our sins, he just for unjust, that he should offer to God us [that he should offer us to God], made dead in flesh, but made quick in Spirit.
19 For which thing he came in Spirit, and also to them that were closed together in prison;
20 which were sometime unbelieveful, when they abided the patience of God in the days of Noah, when the ship was made [when the ark, or ship, was made], in which a few, that is to say, eight souls were made safe by water.
1 Peter 3:18-20Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)
Because Christ Himself Suffered To Bring Us To God, And Is Now Glorified By God
18 Because Christ also suffered once-for-all for sins— a righteous One for unrighteous ones— in order that He might bring you to God, having been put-to-death in the flesh but made-alive[a] by the Spirit, 19 ... by Whom[c] also[d] having gone, He proclaimed[e] to the spirits[f] in prison— 20 ones having disobeyed formerly when the patience of God was waiting in the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared,... in which a few (that is, eight souls) were brought-safely through the water,
Footnotes:
a.1 Peter 3:18 Or, given life.
b.1 Peter 3:18 Or, in the Spirit; or, in spirit, in His spirit; or, in the realm of the spirit.
c.1 Peter 3:19 That is, the Spirit. Or, in which. That is, in His spirit; or, in the state of being dead in the flesh but alive in spirit.
d.1 Peter 3:19 Or even; that is, by Whom having gone, He even proclaimed.
e.1 Peter 3:19 Or, made a proclamation.
f.1 Peter 3:19 That is, people; or, angels.
[b]1 Peter 3:18-201599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
18 [a]For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, [c]that he might bring us to God, [d]and was put to death concerning the [e]flesh, but was quickened by the spirit.
19 [f]By [g]the which he also went, and preached unto the [h]spirits that are in prison.
20 Which were in time passed disobedient, when [i]once the long suffering of God abode in the days of Noah, while the Ark was preparing, wherein few, that is, eight [j]souls were saved in the water.
Footnotes:
a.1 Peter 3:18 A proof of either of the rules, by the example of Christ himself our chief pattern who was afflicted, not for his own sins (which were none) but for ours, and that according to his Father’s decree.
b.1 Peter 3:18 An argument taken of comparison: Christ the just suffered for us that are unjust, and shall it grieve us who are unjust to suffer for the just’s cause?
c.1 Peter 3:18 Another argument being partly taken of things coupled together, to wit, because Christ bringeth us to his Father that same way that he went himself, and partly from the cause efficient: to wit, because Christ is not only set before us for an example to follow, but also he holdeth us up by his virtue in all the difficulties of this life, until he bring us to his Father.
d.1 Peter 3:18 Another argument taken of the happy end of these afflictions, wherein also Christ goeth before us both in example and virtues, as one who suffered most grievous torments even unto death, although but in one part only of him, to wit, in the flesh or man’s nature, but yet became conqueror by virtue of his divinity.
e.1 Peter 3:18 As touching his manhood, for his body was dead, and his soul felt the sorrows of death.
f.1 Peter 3:19 A secret objection: Christ indeed might do this, but what is that to us? yet (saith the Apostle) for Christ hath showed forth this virtue in all ages both to the preservation of the godly, were they never so few and miserable, and to revenge the rebellion of his enemies, as it appeareth by the history of the flood: for Christ is he which in those days (when God through his patience appointed a time of repentance to the world) was present not in corporal presence, but by his divine virtue, preaching repentance even by the mouth of Noah himself who then prepared the Ark, to those disobedient spirits which are now in prison waiting for the full recompence of their rebellion, and saved those few (that is, eight only persons) in the water.
g.1 Peter 3:19 By the virtue of which Spirit, that is to say of the divinity: therefore this word, Spirit, cannot in this place be taken for the soul, unless we say, that Christ was raised up again, and quickened by the virute of his soul.
h.1 Peter 3:19 He calleth them Spirits, in respect of his time, not in respect of the time that they were in the flesh.
i.1 Peter 3:20 This word (once) showeth that there was a furthermost day appointed, and if that were once past, there should be no more.
j.1 Peter 3:20 Men.
Okay
While some differ slightly, what we have in essence is this: Christ died, preached to those imprisoned - those who at one point would not listen. Christ affected the souls of those long-since dead - in some capacity.
Some would believe Christ offered "salvation" to those who had died before his sacrifice. Others teach Christ went into 'that place' for one reason - because until Christ, "the righteous" would not be within the presence of God - but they were sent to a holding-tank of sorts. And it was to those who died righteously that he preached and brought into the REAL heaven.
As you read the following - I talk to think. That is to say when I am thinking about possibilities I express the thoughts verbally. Doing this serves to help organize my thoughts and help me reach the most-likely truth about a given situation.
Okay. Here goes.
Facts: Christ existed. God exists. Heaven exists. God loves mankind. God does not want ANYONE to "perish" (spend eternity in Hell, etc.). God operates outside 'time' - that is to say, God can be, and is at every point in time from the beginning until the end. Except to use those labels (beginning and end) presents a linear reference of time I think is not real but humans present time in that way to help keep our brains from exploding.
Assumptions: Time is measured correctly only by those perceiving it. However, each perception of time IS valid and true. As an example - the light from our nearest star - Alpha Centauri takes about 4 years to reach our solar system - to reach us. When we see the light we are seeing the light as it looked four years ago. If there was a planet, with people, near there, and we had a telescope, we'd see people moving and walking FOUR YEARS into their history - but for us, they'd be doing those things NOW. Right now. And vice-versa. That planet, looking at us, would see us four years into our past - although for them, they'd be looking at LIVE TV, so to speak. Further - when in Heaven or Hell the soul does not age. One "second" - let's say 'one moment' in either place could be a billion years on earth or 20 minutes. No linkage exists between the two places.
Follow me?
Back to God. Christ. All that.
I think Hell has to exist as taught or a lot of Christians will get [B]PISSED. If folks "get to sin" and still get to heaven, what GOOD is it being a good/better person? Now - I'll addres that in another post - but just think about that for a bit...
Taking things at face value, Christ could have moved into Hell and there found unbelievers and moved them away from their torment into a place of non-torment. If Christ did that, Hell - or the Grave - or whatever, should be empty. Yup. Christ would have moved every soul who ever existed or ever will exist because every soul that would exist or has existed is already there in Heaven or in Hell because those places do not exist within our constraints of linear time. That means when folks die and go wherever, they are immediately 'back then', too - at the point Christ came to do whatever he did. Because there's no 'time' there. So everyone was there that ever will be there. I'm getting a headache.
And think about this - WHY does God know the future for all mankind? Easy. He's already there. "Right now" (which doesn’t really make sense, but for the sake of communication) God is there - at the 'end' of everything - and he's at every point in between. So God knows what WILL happen because right now (again, cant be technically correct to use that term) God is there looking at it. SO....to those he FOREKNEW, he predestined to enter Heaven. That is to say, because God can already see who will accept him, he places situations and he drives actions and hearts in a way where people must choose the right path that brings them to the conclusion they are already at - in some point in time. (Mindbomb).
Further - I see implication Christ's actions brought salvation to the just and unjust. Said another way, Christ brought-right the sins of those living and dead and yet to be born. Those folks - whether they accept it or not - their "sins" are forgiven and the link between them and God has been and is restored.
Couple of wildcard questions:
...and if souls can be offered forgiveness - and remember, the bible uses 'spirits' - why can't satan? Why is God unable or unwilling to forgive Lucifer?
...Why does the sin of adam and eve damn all mankind forever without their knowledge or culpability yet Christ's atonement does not do the same?
....Further - Why is God such a loser in terms of numbers-of-souls? Traditional Christianity teaches only a FEW - relatively speaking - souls end up in Heaven as compared to Hell. Why would God let The Devil "win"?
....Lastly - and related to above - if God is all-powerful, his will must reflect reality. For things to end up the way they end up things MUST happen that lead to the eventual conclusion. In that regard, we have little TRUE choice. So - If God says "I am willing that NONE should perish" - why do so many perish?