In Defense of Tyr and Drummond

[DragonStryk72]

So apparently, I came late to the whole John V thing, but I ended up reading up on his posts. Now, anyone who's been on this site for a bit can tell you that I get into pretty long-running goes with Tyr and Drummond, we have significant differences of opinion, and I've laid into them fairly hard at points.

However, I saw the John V thread, read up... and yeah, John pretty much got that ball rolling. There's no real cloudy bit here, or "well, there was damage on both sides".

We'll start here:


Now, I’ll tell you what will impress me. Away you go and write a short 1000 word essay on any aspect of the political or social topic of your choice. Post it, no google, no quotes, (we can usually spot plagiarism), in your own words and using your own explanations. Now go away and impress me, I’ll give you an honest opinion and if I was wrong about you, I’ll admit it.

This was a response to Drummond having posted a response in a thread on China. I have not edited this, merely highlighting some sentences for sake of direction.

This is a person who is talking like they're an elitist professor talking to a remedial student, not one forum poster speaking to another in response to their post.

And let's be clear on this point: Drummond did post a legitimate article link that called into question part of John's points, something John never responded to, other than to dismiss it out of hand, and fairly directly insult Drummond. There were no insults in the thread up to this point, so this is clearly John throwing the first shot.


I’m serious about what I said in my PM. Take care your big mouth doesn’t lead to your downfall, because any time now you might have to eat your personal comments. Understood?

Okay, now several points here: As far as I'm aware, John's violating the rules by bringing PMs into the forum post, and second, this pretty straightforwardly is a threat. There's no quibbling here, and I've gotten into some heated exchanges with Tyr.

This is also more of the same talking down that I'm noticing in almost every post he makes, regardless of topic. This isn't a matter of Liberal vs. Conservative, or Republic vs. Democrat, this is just straight "One person talking condescendingly to everyone on a regular basis".


Drummond, part of my job involves spotting nit-pickers, baiters and those with such a poor level of knowledge that they latch on to other posters but never put their own ideas out for others to see. The Telegraph is media, now if that, google and Wiki is where you get your info from it makes a poor showing. I have you down as a typical product of a UK leftie liberal, integrating yourself with the mainstream because you are unable to articulate anything yourself. I’m not critical of America, I’m critical of every country, its politicians and their policies – it’s what I do for a living.

Yup, more straight-up insult, and condescension from John. I mean, this isn't even veiled stuff, and I'm not even looking hard for it. His disdain for media is bit odd, since most of what we debate here is based on what we get from media, such as news, where Drummond was drawing his response from. I mean, that's sort of part and parcel to what we're discussing here, right?


No, it’s not arrogance, it’s called being sick and tired of the baiting by the few and the constant criticism and personal attacks when posting more than one liners. The Russians were also jumped on from the word go and I can assure you in PMs, they also feel the same. The introductory threads contain warnings to tone it down for newcomers and it always applies to the same few. My response is, as the English say, put your money where your mouth is and prove how clever you are face to face, instead of throwing insults from behind your key boards! Come on big mouth Tyr, let's see what you've got.

As this is a political forum, I issue a personal challengeof a one to one debate toTyr-Ziu Saxnoton aspects of social or political science, explanation only, without google or plagiarised quotes.

Aspects of which could include Marxism, progressivism, and critical theory (Frankfurt school, cultural Marxism), classical ideologies, criminology . . .
Specifics might include but are not limited to the differences between socialism and communism; the rise and effects of industrialism in the western world; the development of classical ideological thought; social and cultural changes in values and norms as a result of mass immigration . . .
Or any of the classical theorists, Durkheim, Marx, Weber, Foucault . . .

I envisage that this person will accept, given his many criticisms and personal comments on my work already posted here.

I find the concept of a professor throwing around an insult my littlest niece would use hilarious, but it's still a direct insult.

At the point of this post, he hadn't even been here that long to be able to be "sick and tired" of anyone on this board, so this seems like he was coming in with baggage to start. Yeah, I'll never be the guy saying Tyr and Drummond won't hit you right in the fiddly bits, but there are limits even to that. I did see both of them start to debate, and John pretty much went off the line first in most of those instances. They certainly rose to the prodding, but that doesn't remove the point that they were being prodded.

Most the rest of it is one long, "U mad Bro? Come at me, Bro!"

[Perianne]

I invited John V to come here. I like him. I also like all the other people involved. It hurt me to see it unfolding as it did.

Stuff happens, I guess. I have invited several people to come play with us. No one ever stays very long. I don't know why.

Anyway, I am disappointed in how things transpired. I thought he would be a good fit here. If you want to blame someone, blame me. :(

[indago]

I invited John V to come here. I like him. I also like all the other people involved. It hurt me to see it unfolding as it did.

Stuff happens, I guess. I have invited several people to come play with us. No one ever stays very long. I don't know why.

Anyway, I am disappointed in how things transpired. I thought he would be a good fit here. If you want to blame someone, blame me. :(

I don't see that any blame should be placed anywhere. A message board is a message board. If someone has a thin skin, don't play. I have seen so much of this:

"I'm leaving now... I'm heading for the door here! I'm walking here... When I go out that door, I won't be back... I'm walking... I'm almost to the door... I've got my hand on the doorknob here... So long... I won't be seeing you anymore... I'm turning the doorknob here... I've almost got the door opened... If you don't say anything, I'll be gone and never coming back... I've got the door opened now..."

[DragonStryk72]

I invited John V to come here. I like him. I also like all the other people involved. It hurt me to see it unfolding as it did.

Stuff happens, I guess. I have invited several people to come play with us. No one ever stays very long. I don't know why.

Anyway, I am disappointed in how things transpired. I thought he would be a good fit here. If you want to blame someone, blame me. :(

You aren't to blame for anyone else's conduct. John was a grown man, who decided how he would approach these boards.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

So apparently, I came late to the whole John V thing, but I ended up reading up on his posts. Now, anyone who's been on this site for a bit can tell you that I get into pretty long-running goes with Tyr and Drummond, we have significant differences of opinion, and I've laid into them fairly hard at points.

However, I saw the John V thread, read up... and yeah, John pretty much got that ball rolling. There's no real cloudy bit here, or "well, there was damage on both sides".

We'll start here:



This was a response to Drummond having posted a response in a thread on China. I have not edited this, merely highlighting some sentences for sake of direction.

This is a person who is talking like they're an elitist professor talking to a remedial student, not one forum poster speaking to another in response to their post.

And let's be clear on this point: Drummond did post a legitimate article link that called into question part of John's points, something John never responded to, other than to dismiss it out of hand, and fairly directly insult Drummond. There were no insults in the thread up to this point, so this is clearly John throwing the first shot.



Okay, now several points here: As far as I'm aware, John's violating the rules by bringing PMs into the forum post, and second, this pretty straightforwardly is a threat. There's no quibbling here, and I've gotten into some heated exchanges with Tyr.

This is also more of the same talking down that I'm noticing in almost every post he makes, regardless of topic. This isn't a matter of Liberal vs. Conservative, or Republic vs. Democrat, this is just straight "One person talking condescendingly to everyone on a regular basis".



Yup, more straight-up insult, and condescension from John. I mean, this isn't even veiled stuff, and I'm not even looking hard for it. His disdain for media is bit odd, since most of what we debate here is based on what we get from media, such as news, where Drummond was drawing his response from. I mean, that's sort of part and parcel to what we're discussing here, right?



I find the concept of a professor throwing around an insult my littlest niece would use hilarious, but it's still a direct insult.

At the point of this post, he hadn't even been here that long to be able to be "sick and tired" of anyone on this board, so this seems like he was coming in with baggage to start. Yeah, I'll never be the guy saying Tyr and Drummond won't hit you right in the fiddly bits, but there are limits even to that. I did see both of them start to debate, and John pretty much went off the line first in most of those instances. They certainly rose to the prodding, but that doesn't remove the point that they were being prodded.

Most the rest of it is one long, "U mad Bro? Come at me, Bro!"

Kudos for a well thought out analysis, one far better than I could ever do.
Giving credit were credit is due. :beer:

I will note that I never insulted the man until after he did so first and he had already sent me a threat in a pm nor did "I ever stalked him".
I did oppose him on the "American Exceptionalism' comment and he went absolutely ballistic because I opposed that one aspect of the massive volume of commentary and essay type articles he presented here.
Once he threatened me I did my usual reply and warned him to be careful what he opened up and it would not likely work out the way he envisioned(he went zonkers in his reply to that). Up to that point I had held ALL MY FIRE. After that I saw no reason to be gentle with him.

After that I researched ALL of his posts and found lies he had presented about himself, etc.
Be it noted that he himself posted a comment about the pm warning he gave me--only after that fact did I reference it. I had not complained to admin nor had I even sent a copy of it to admin here-- I still have not sent a copy of that pm. I have it saved and off site as a precaution.

I think you are dead on correct, he came here with baggage, some very unhealthy baggage and an arrogance that is off the charts IMHO.

In my opinion does not matter who invited him here as he is responsible for how he chose to conduct himself.
Perianne has nothing to apologize for. She is not the first to ever greatly misjudge a person.
He chose to speaking to any person that did not agree 100% with him as if they were morons and trolls.....
Jim does not allow trolls to stay here long.. Currently none here that I know of..
However there are a great many strong people with strong and passionate beliefs.
Tis why some bounce in here and they run away or else get themselves bounced out, usually by Jim..

By the way, JohnV had many members here fooled, some he issued unprovoked attacks on had only politely disagreed with him on a topic , Gunny being a prime example of that yet once Gunny bested him this JohnV went ballistic , threatening to place Gunny on ignore.. Seems to me that his arrogance knew no bounds.--Tyr

[Drummond]

I invited John V to come here. I like him. I also like all the other people involved. It hurt me to see it unfolding as it did.

Stuff happens, I guess. I have invited several people to come play with us. No one ever stays very long. I don't know why.

Anyway, I am disappointed in how things transpired. I thought he would be a good fit here. If you want to blame someone, blame me. :(

Perianne, you did what you thought was right, you were well motivated. No 'blame' is appropriate. Far from it, my thinking is that John V should value your efforts on his behalf. That he squandered an opportunity on whatever his 'baggage' issues were and are, is wholly down to him.

[Drummond]

So apparently, I came late to the whole John V thing, but I ended up reading up on his posts. Now, anyone who's been on this site for a bit can tell you that I get into pretty long-running goes with Tyr and Drummond, we have significant differences of opinion, and I've laid into them fairly hard at points.

However, I saw the John V thread, read up... and yeah, John pretty much got that ball rolling. There's no real cloudy bit here, or "well, there was damage on both sides".

We'll start here:



This was a response to Drummond having posted a response in a thread on China. I have not edited this, merely highlighting some sentences for sake of direction.

This is a person who is talking like they're an elitist professor talking to a remedial student, not one forum poster speaking to another in response to their post.

And let's be clear on this point: Drummond did post a legitimate article link that called into question part of John's points, something John never responded to, other than to dismiss it out of hand, and fairly directly insult Drummond. There were no insults in the thread up to this point, so this is clearly John throwing the first shot.



Okay, now several points here: As far as I'm aware, John's violating the rules by bringing PMs into the forum post, and second, this pretty straightforwardly is a threat. There's no quibbling here, and I've gotten into some heated exchanges with Tyr.

This is also more of the same talking down that I'm noticing in almost every post he makes, regardless of topic. This isn't a matter of Liberal vs. Conservative, or Republic vs. Democrat, this is just straight "One person talking condescendingly to everyone on a regular basis".



Yup, more straight-up insult, and condescension from John. I mean, this isn't even veiled stuff, and I'm not even looking hard for it. His disdain for media is bit odd, since most of what we debate here is based on what we get from media, such as news, where Drummond was drawing his response from. I mean, that's sort of part and parcel to what we're discussing here, right?



I find the concept of a professor throwing around an insult my littlest niece would use hilarious, but it's still a direct insult.

At the point of this post, he hadn't even been here that long to be able to be "sick and tired" of anyone on this board, so this seems like he was coming in with baggage to start. Yeah, I'll never be the guy saying Tyr and Drummond won't hit you right in the fiddly bits, but there are limits even to that. I did see both of them start to debate, and John pretty much went off the line first in most of those instances. They certainly rose to the prodding, but that doesn't remove the point that they were being prodded.

Most the rest of it is one long, "U mad Bro? Come at me, Bro!"

DragonStryk, your post is greatly appreciated - thank you.

Both you and Tyr do a better job of analysis than I'm probably capable of over this. I can only really add what I felt, and a belief or 2 that I hold. Hopefully I'm being fair.

I'll pick up on one point immediately, though. My impression was always that John would do whatever it took to 'win', and to him, that meant anything. So it was that he introduced 'PM' material into the more public mix.

This itself is indefensible, and speaks volumes of the sheer arrogance involved. But even more than this, John wasn't above trying to threaten his opposition into hoped-for submission. This utterly defies what forums such as this exist for ... reasoned argument, points and counterpoints offered for public examination, considered on their own merits, MINUS sub-plots and strategems invented for one-upmanship advantage.

John certainly came on here with 'baggage' issues, and a determination to win ... with what appeared to be a total faith in his superiority. In this, he totally missed the point of this forum. It shouldn't be about who's got the biggest ego, or who can better bully an opponent. But John - probably willfully - was blind to all that.

Contributors who approach debates with honest exchanges, who represent themselves honestly, I can respect .. EVEN if what they're saying is the antithesis of everything I believe in. John could have been respected in that way, regardless of any view he held, if fair play was involved.

But it wasn't. With John, we had baggage, a clash of egos, a no-holds-barred 'win out, no matter what you stoop to' approach. Such an approach, if experienced by people who won't knuckle under because it's required of them, can surely never succeed.

And with me ... it never will. I will never respect any contributor who is committed to such things.

John V was a disappointment. A fellow Brit, apparently, and initially I thought he was maybe one with a like mind. But British or not, the way his contributions here developed was utterly unacceptable. So I cannot be sorry if we've seen the last of him.

Thanks, DragonStryk. We've clashed in the past, probably we will again sometime. But at least you deserve all of my respect, because you DO approach your contributions with honesty and reputability. I can ask no more of anyone than that.

[aboutime]

DragonStryk, your post is greatly appreciated - thank you.

Both you and Tyr do a better job of analysis than I'm probably capable of over this. I can only really add what I felt, and a belief or 2 that I hold. Hopefully I'm being fair.

I'll pick up on one point immediately, though. My impression was always that John would do whatever it took to 'win', and to him, that meant anything. So it was that he introduced 'PM' material into the more public mix.

This itself is indefensible, and speaks volumes of the sheer arrogance involved. But even more than this, John wasn't above trying to threaten his opposition into hoped-for submission. This utterly defies what forums such as this exist for ... reasoned argument, points and counterpoints offered for public examination, considered on their own merits, MINUS sub-plots and strategems invented for one-upmanship advantage.

John certainly came on here with 'baggage' issues, and a determination to win ... with what appeared to be a total faith in his superiority. In this, he totally missed the point of this forum. It shouldn't be about who's got the biggest ego, or who can better bully an opponent. But John - probably willfully - was blind to all that.

Contributors who approach debates with honest exchanges, who represent themselves honestly, I can respect .. EVEN if what they're saying is the antithesis of everything I believe in. John could have been respected in that way, regardless of any view he held, if fair play was involved.

But it wasn't. With John, we had baggage, a clash of egos, a no-holds-barred 'win out, no matter what you stoop to' approach. Such an approach, if experienced by people who won't knuckle under because it's required of them, can surely never succeed.

And with me ... it never will. I will never respect any contributor who is committed to such things.

John V was a disappointment. A fellow Brit, apparently, and initially I thought he was maybe one with a like mind. But British or not, the way his contributions here developed was utterly unacceptable. So I cannot be sorry if we've seen the last of him.

Thanks, DragonStryk. We've clashed in the past, probably we will again sometime. But at least you deserve all of my respect, because you DO approach your contributions with honesty and reputability. I can ask no more of anyone than that.

By the way. In keeping with the rules of this forum. I remained quiet about the PM threats I received, and then warned others about here.
It appears the PROBLEM has been sucked down the drain. Thank Goodness!

[Abbey Marie]

...
This is also more of the same talking down that I'm noticing in almost every post he makes, regardless of topic. This isn't a matter of Liberal vs. Conservative, or Republic vs. Democrat, this is just straight "One person talking condescendingly to everyone on a regular basis".
...


Given, but he is not the only one guilty of this exact thing, particualrly vis a' vis Drummond and Tyr...

[Perianne]

Given, but he is not the only one guilty of this exact thing, particualrly vis a' vis Drummond and Tyr...

I like both of them. And they are nice to me in return. Of course it could be out of fear and they know I could beat them up if they get smart with me!!!! :lol:

[Abbey Marie]

I like both of them. And they are nice to me in return. Of course it could be out of fear and they know I could beat them up if they get smart with me!!!! :lol:

Of course!


(and of course I wasn't referring to you, and I like them both, too :cool: )

[Gunny]

I invited John V to come here. I like him. I also like all the other people involved. It hurt me to see it unfolding as it did.

Stuff happens, I guess. I have invited several people to come play with us. No one ever stays very long. I don't know why.

Anyway, I am disappointed in how things transpired. I thought he would be a good fit here. If you want to blame someone, blame me. :(

Unfolded is right. I have no problem with his being here. But I'm going to argue with him every step of the way if I think he's wrong.

Speaking of opening a can of worms ... when you invite people here and they get launched on, most will fold and leave. At the same time, John V is one arrogant, closed-minded person. Perfect storm. If he ain't got the 'nads to stay .... bye. Why should anyone back down to someone else's beliefs? I won't. And in case you haven't noticed, I've pissed off everyone on this board.

They're still my friends. If your boy wants to post here, tell him to buck up and thicken his skin.

If I had a dollar for every time someone told me to quit being an asshole, George Soros wouldn't have crap on me.

[Gunny]

Oh. And running people off the board is dumb.

[Jeff]

Of course!


(and of course I wasn't referring to you, and I like them both, too :cool: )

They are both peckers heads, I don't see what's to like about them. :laugh:


Unfolded is right. I have no problem with his being here. But I'm going to argue with him every step of the way if I think he's wrong.

Speaking of opening a can of worms ... when you invite people here and they get launched on, most will fold and leave. At the same time, John V is one arrogant, closed-minded person. Perfect storm. If he ain't got the 'nads to stay .... bye. Why should anyone back down to someone else's beliefs? I won't. And in case you haven't noticed, I've pissed off everyone on this board.

They're still my friends. If your boy wants to post here, tell him to buck up and thicken his skin.

If I had a dollar for every time someone told me to quit being an asshole, George Soros wouldn't have crap on me.


OO yea I forgot, throw Gunny in the pecker head category as well. :laugh:

[indago]

A few years back, in an office I worked in, there was a small mirror — about one foot square — that somebody had fastened to the wall. I put a sign above it: PRICK OF THE WEEK


One guy there was too short to look directly into the mirror, so I made him a stool with his name on it and placed it on the floor in front of the mirror so he could look to see who the PRICK OF THE WEEK was.

[DLT]

So apparently, I came late to the whole John V thing, but I ended up reading up on his posts. Now, anyone who's been on this site for a bit can tell you that I get into pretty long-running goes with Tyr and Drummond, we have significant differences of opinion, and I've laid into them fairly hard at points.

However, I saw the John V thread, read up... and yeah, John pretty much got that ball rolling. There's no real cloudy bit here, or "well, there was damage on both sides".

We'll start here:



This was a response to Drummond having posted a response in a thread on China. I have not edited this, merely highlighting some sentences for sake of direction.

This is a person who is talking like they're an elitist professor talking to a remedial student, not one forum poster speaking to another in response to their post.

And let's be clear on this point: Drummond did post a legitimate article link that called into question part of John's points, something John never responded to, other than to dismiss it out of hand, and fairly directly insult Drummond. There were no insults in the thread up to this point, so this is clearly John throwing the first shot.



Okay, now several points here: As far as I'm aware, John's violating the rules by bringing PMs into the forum post, and second, this pretty straightforwardly is a threat. There's no quibbling here, and I've gotten into some heated exchanges with Tyr.

This is also more of the same talking down that I'm noticing in almost every post he makes, regardless of topic. This isn't a matter of Liberal vs. Conservative, or Republic vs. Democrat, this is just straight "One person talking condescendingly to everyone on a regular basis".



Yup, more straight-up insult, and condescension from John. I mean, this isn't even veiled stuff, and I'm not even looking hard for it. His disdain for media is bit odd, since most of what we debate here is based on what we get from media, such as news, where Drummond was drawing his response from. I mean, that's sort of part and parcel to what we're discussing here, right?



I find the concept of a professor throwing around an insult my littlest niece would use hilarious, but it's still a direct insult.

At the point of this post, he hadn't even been here that long to be able to be "sick and tired" of anyone on this board, so this seems like he was coming in with baggage to start. Yeah, I'll never be the guy saying Tyr and Drummond won't hit you right in the fiddly bits, but there are limits even to that. I did see both of them start to debate, and John pretty much went off the line first in most of those instances. They certainly rose to the prodding, but that doesn't remove the point that they were being prodded.

Most the rest of it is one long, "U mad Bro? Come at me, Bro!"

Eh....he just sounds like your typical/average, every-day leftist to me. IMO.....they all have an unjustified sense of superiority. They're all condescending jerks....as they talk down to everyone (only) on the right. And they all have juvenile minds that throw out juvenile insults. Nothing new.

[DLT]

I invited John V to come here. I like him. I also like all the other people involved. It hurt me to see it unfolding as it did.

Stuff happens, I guess. I have invited several people to come play with us. No one ever stays very long. I don't know why.

Anyway, I am disappointed in how things transpired. I thought he would be a good fit here. If you want to blame someone, blame me. :(

How is it your fault that someone else chooses to act like a prig?

[aboutime]

A few years back, in an office I worked in, there was a small mirror — about one foot square — that somebody had fastened to the wall. I put a sign above it: PRICK OF THE WEEK


One guy there was too short to look directly into the mirror, so I made him a stool with his name on it and placed it on the floor in front of the mirror so he could look to see who the PRICK OF THE WEEK was.


Funny. And the worst part of it was. YOU probably made sure to look into it every day as a reminder.:laugh:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Eh....he just sounds like your typical/average, every-day leftist to me. IMO.....they all have an unjustified sense of superiority. They're all condescending jerks....as they talk down to everyone (only) on the right. And they all have juvenile minds that throw out juvenile insults. Nothing new.
And a great many of them love to fly false colors to infiltrate and get in propaganda in an attempt to create disunity in Conservative/Christian/Patriotic/ Right-wing groups and/or forums..
The Conservative forum at my old forum was heavily infiltrated by such moles..... and admin there added them in the deception.--Tyr

[Gunny]

They are both peckers heads, I don't see what's to like about them. :laugh:




OO yea I forgot, throw Gunny in the pecker head category as well. :laugh:

I'm only just sort of not all right. Ass.:laugh:

[Gunny]

How is it your fault that someone else chooses to act like a prig?

Whose fault is it someone can't say what they want, no matter how wrong they are?

Let me ask you this: What's the difference between people bullying others on a message board and Baltimore? Not a whole lot from my POV.

[DragonStryk72]

Given, but he is not the only one guilty of this exact thing, particualrly vis a' vis Drummond and Tyr...

Tyr and Drummond get condescending, at times . Every post by John V pretty much dripped with the stuff, which is a bit different. There was 100% agrrement, or "do you need me to sound out the big words for you?", with no in-between.