If its good enough for U.S. citizens, it's good enough for allied heads of state.

[Noir]

Today, 23 June 2015, WikiLeaks began publishing "Espionnage Élysée", a collection of TOP SECRET intelligence reports and technical documents from the US National Security Agency (NSA) concerning targeting and signals intelligence intercepts of the communications of high-level officials from successive French governments over the last ten years

The top secret documents derive from directly targeted NSA surveillance of the communications of French Presidents Francois Hollande (2012–present), Nicolas Sarkozy (2007–2012), and Jacques Chirac (1995–2007), as well as French cabinet ministers and the French Ambassador to the United States. The documents also contain the "selectors" from the target list, detailing the cell phone numbers of numerous officials in the Elysee up to and including the direct cell phone of the President.
https://wikileaks.org/nsa-france/

[jimnyc]

And you're 100% delusional if you don't think your agencies do the same, and other agencies around the world. I'm not saying that spying is right, but par for the course these days. You guys had moles in the IRA and IRA moles elsewhere. Fwiw - the UK has also been charged with surveillance on it's own citizens.

[Noir]

And you're 100% delusional if you don't think your agencies do the same, and other agencies around the world. I'm not saying that spying is right, but par for the course these days. You guys had moles in the IRA and IRA moles elsewhere. Fwiw - the UK has also been charged with surveillance on it's own citizens.

Spying on the IRA and the French President is pretty much the same thing, right?

What do you think the American response would be to discover that their presidents mobile phone was tapped by the French?

Also if you think I think the UK are some sort of beacon of civil rights you're way wrong.

[jimnyc]

Spying on the IRA and the French President is pretty much the same thing, right?

What do you think the American response would be to discover that their presidents mobile phone was tapped by the French?

Also if you think I think the UK are some sort of beacon of civil rights you're way wrong.

Point is, EVERY country spies, our country is just better at it is all. Again, if you think it doesn't happen where you are, and other countries, you're delusional. And I think it sucks, but I have NO doubt that our government is being spied on in various ways.

And I don't think UK is, nor really any other country. I think the USA has more freedoms, by far, than any country in the world, but that doesn't mean we don't have our share of problems, including civil rights of course.

[Noir]

Point is, EVERY country spies, our country is just better at it is all. Again, if you think it doesn't happen where you are, and other countries, you're delusional. And I think it sucks, but I have NO doubt that our government is being spied on in various ways. And I don't think UK is, nor really any other country. I think the USA has more freedoms, by far, than any country in the world, but that doesn't mean we don't have our share of problems, including civil rights of course.

And the US have got caught red handed, it'll be interesting to see if France want the international courts get involved...i don't think 'but everyone does it' will be a sound legal defence.

[Jeff]

Spying on the IRA and the French President is pretty much the same thing, right?

What do you think the American response would be to discover that their presidents mobile phone was tapped by the French?

Also if you think I think the UK are some sort of beacon of civil rights you're way wrong.

I can't speak for all but my response would be wow the French finally grew a set, and more than likley I would have disbelief that they could or would do such a thing.

[jimnyc]

And the US have got caught red handed, it'll be interesting to see if France want the international courts get involved...i don't think 'but everyone does it' will be a sound legal defence.

Let them get them involved. They won't do jack shit. That's like asking the UN to get involved around the world, a bunch of useless bastards. And the spying likely continues as I type this, and on the French, and on Americans. Part of the territory of politics. We probably have CIA over in Iran right now as well, and wouldn't surprise me if there is something spying on them.

[revelarts]

Spying on the IRA and the French President is pretty much the same thing, right?

What do you think the American response would be to discover that their presidents mobile phone was tapped by the French?

Also if you think I think the UK are some sort of beacon of civil rights you're way wrong.


seems some americans really DON'T care anymore if we Spy on every person in the world without warrant,
Feel up grandma and children at airports,
shoot people dead in the st of tail lights,
not label our food,
take our property,
jail americans or french or whoever without trials,
torture with coke bottles and drowning,
kill american citizens or anyone on earth with drones.
Or ANYTHING really except gun rights of course and ....
don't touch the Rebel flag! they'll be trouble if try it! yankee.

[jimnyc]

seems some americans really DON'T care anymore if we Spy every person in the world without warrant, Feel up grandma and children at airports, shoot people dead in the st of tail lights, not label our food, take our property, jail americans or french or whoever without trials, torture with coke bottles a drowning, kill american citizens or anyone on earth with drones. Or ANYTHING really except gun rights of course and ....
don't touch the Rebel flag! they'll be trouble if try it! yankee.

And while some think others are taking freedoms away - others hypocritically sit back and want to take inanimate objects away from others.

[Noir]

And while some think others are taking freedoms away - others hypocritically sit back and want to take inanimate objects away from others.

Which is the bigger travesty; A government banning a flag on top of its own buildings, or a government wiretapping international citizens?

[revelarts]

And while some think others are taking freedoms away - others hypocritically sit back and want to take inanimate objects away from others.

just from gov't grounds Jim.

But i'd gladly FLY one if i could get all those who do to really care about all the freedoms that some say that flag and the U.S. flag represents.

If they'd complain as loud and has hard for the bill of rights as they do for the defense of that flag.
I'd put one up in my window TONIGHT.

i don't see people putting the Bill of rights in there sigs or as avatars
or buying every copy of the bill of rights and the constitution at stores and plastering them on the wall and trucks.
as freedom after freedom are effectively banned

[jimnyc]

Which is the bigger travesty; A government banning a flag within its own country, or a government wiretapping international citizens?

A government banning a flag in it's own country, by far.

[Noir]

A government banning a flag in it's own country, by far.

Edited post after you'd already selected it to quote.

[jimnyc]

Which is the bigger travesty; A government banning a flag on top of its own buildings, or a government wiretapping international citizens?

Perhaps the wiretapping in this case, but I don't know about a "travesty". Are we talking about citizens, or a foreign head of state or politician? And you're damn skippy it makes a difference.

[Noir]

Perhaps the wiretapping in this case, but I don't know about a "travesty". Are we talking about citizens, or a foreign head of state or politician? And you're damn skippy it makes a difference.

It makes a difference?
Politicians are probably okay? What about the politicians PA maybe she gossips on the phone, or their spouse, maybe its their translators or script writers that have the dirt. Citizens.

[Jeff]

just from gov't grounds Jim.

But i'd gladly FLY one if i could get all those who do to really care about all the freedoms that some say that flag and the U.S. flag represents.

If they'd complain as loud and has hard for the bill of rights as they do for the defense of that flag.
I'd put one up in my window TONIGHT.

i don't see people putting the Bill of rights in there sigs or as avatars
or buying every copy of the bill of rights and the constitution at stores and plastering them on the wall and trucks.
as freedom after freedom are effectively banned

Yes sir, From Government grounds that a deal was cut years ago to do, the flag came off the state house and onto a monument to make some happy ( and lets be honest, it was to make the minority happy ) now the Minority is saying to hell with the deal we want the whole bowl of cherries.

Again if you don't even live in the state why should ya even get a say in it ? And No Rev I am not trying to be a smart a$$ but think about it, when our County has a issue we don't turn to Russia and China for their opinions .

[jimnyc]

It makes a difference?
Politicians are probably okay? What about the politicians PA maybe she gossips on the phone, or their spouse, maybe its their translators or script writers that have the dirt. Citizens.

Spying is part of the game around the world, whether right or wrong. It's going to happen for a long time after you and I are gone.

And folks shouldn't be using business phones for personal reasons. That's why we have cell phones.

[jimnyc]

Yes sir, From Government grounds that a deal was cut years ago to do, the flag came off the state house and onto a monument to make some happy ( and lets be honest, it was to make the minority happy ) now the Minority is saying to hell with the deal we want the whole bowl of cherries.

Again if you don't even live in the state why should ya even get a say in it ? And No Rev I am not trying to be a smart a$$ but think about it, when our County has a issue we don't turn to Russia and China for their opinions .

The citizens should simply gather funds, even if on a site like "gofundme", and build a huge memorial elsewhere, and then fly the flag 2x as high when completed.

[tailfins]

And the US have got caught red handed, it'll be interesting to see if France want the international courts get involved...i don't think 'but everyone does it' will be a sound legal defence.

This will be Obama's defense, sending Bill Clinton as a special representative:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P8IYKxpqG0

[revelarts]

Yes sir, From Government grounds that a deal was cut years ago to do, the flag came off the state house and onto a monument to make some happy ( and lets be honest, it was to make the minority happy ) now the Minority is saying to hell with the deal we want the whole bowl of cherries.

Again if you don't even live in the state why should ya even get a say in it ? And No Rev I am not trying to be a smart a$$ but think about it, when our County has a issue we don't turn to Russia and China for their opinions .


The citizens should simply gather funds, even if on a site like "gofundme", and build a huge memorial elsewhere, and then fly the flag 2x as high when completed.


See here we have MORE sincere HEART FELT , other views of the living don't count, other living states in the country don't count, defense of the flag of a completely dead country and even creative ways to FUND it, and display it larger and HIGHER than ever.

but no concern for the loss of rights,
of spying on everyone, torture, feeling up grandma etc etc

but don't take my flag!

[jimnyc]

See here we have MORE sincere HEART FELT , other views of the living don't count, other living states in the country don't count, defense of the flag of a completely dead country and even creative ways to FUND it, and display it larger and HIGHER than ever.

but no concern for the loss of rights,
of spying on everyone, torture, feeling up grandma etc etc

but don't take my flag!

YOU brought the flag into this thread when it wasn't part of the subject, and then wonder why others discuss it?

no concern for riots, arsonists, murderers and other criminals... but take that flag down!!

[revelarts]

YOU brought the flag into this thread when it wasn't part of the subject, and then wonder why others discuss it?

no concern for riots, arsonists, murderers and other criminals... but take that flag down!!
AND still no concern for the bill of rights.

[Noir]

Spying is part of the game around the world, whether right or wrong. It's going to happen for a long time after you and I are gone.

A poor defence.


And folks shouldn't be using business phones for personal reasons. That's why we have cell phones.

It was their cell phones that were tapped.

Also blaming the people who are the victim of wiretapping is a bold tactic.

[jimnyc]

AND still no concern for the bill of rights.

Too busy trying to keep up with the stories of black people killing and rioting around the nation. You know, the things you have serious trouble condemning, but no trouble whatsoever in supporting as they are only "misunderstood".

[jimnyc]

A poor defence.

In your opinion, and you're not a court of law, this is a message board. There will be NO NEED for any defense, as I'll bet you $500 right now that NOTHING come of it.


It was tgeir the cell phones that were tapped.

Also blaming the people who are the victim of wiretapping is a bold tactic.

It's not a tactic, I simply don't care about the french. I would care even less if it were Northern Ireland.

[revelarts]

Too busy trying to keep up with the stories of black people killing and rioting around the nation. You know, the things you have serious trouble condemning, but no trouble whatsoever in supporting as they are only "misunderstood".
still no defense of the bill of rights.

all in for gov't torture
all in for gov't feeling up grand ma
all in for gov't shooting people in street for broken tail lights
all in for gov't spying on every american and foreigner
all in for gov't jailing citizens (and non) without trials
all in for gov't killing citizens (and non) without trials

but just mention banning a dead counties flag.... pages of outrage.

But the banning the bill of rights of rights and constitutions that get convoluted Orwellian excuses and justifications.

[Jeff]

See here we have MORE sincere HEART FELT , other views of the living don't count, other living states in the country don't count, defense of the flag of a completely dead country and even creative ways to FUND it, and display it larger and HIGHER than ever.

but no concern for the loss of rights,
of spying on everyone, torture, feeling up grandma etc etc

but don't take my flag!


YOU brought the flag into this thread when it wasn't part of the subject, and then wonder why others discuss it?

no concern for riots, arsonists, murderers and other criminals... but take that flag down!!


Hell SC has some of the worst schools in the country, but take the flag down

SC has people living in shacks with no doors or windows, but take the flag down

SC has a major problem with teen pregnancy due to lack of education, but take the flag down

Yes the list goes on and on, but the best part is most of the people screaming to take the flag down don't even live in SC, so of course they don't give a dam about the schools or any other problem the state has, they just have their selfish wants and that is all that matters, again I say if you don't live their who cares what you want, if the flag offends you don't fly it at your house, if you feel it shouldn't be flown on state property don't move to a state that does it, or just worry about what happens in your own state.

[Perianne]

still no defense of the bill of rights.

all in for gov't torture
all in for gov't feeling up grand ma
all in for gov't shooting people in street for broken tail lights
all in for gov't spying on every american and foreigner
all in for gov't jailing citizens (and non) without trials
all in for gov't killing citizens (and non) without trials

but just mention banning a dead counties flag.... pages of outrage.

But the banning the bill of rights of rights and constitutions that get convoluted Orwellian excuses and justifications.

I condemn all the things you listed.... except the broken tail lights thing. People should be shot for that. :)

joking

[jimnyc]

still no defense of the bill of rights.

all in for gov't torture
all in for gov't feeling up grand ma
all in for gov't shooting people in street for broken tail lights
all in for gov't spying on every american and foreigner
all in for gov't jailing citizens (and non) without trials
all in for gov't killing citizens (and non) without trials

but just mention banning a dead counties flag.... pages of outrage.

But the banning the bill of rights of rights and constitutions that get convoluted Orwellian excuses and justifications.

"I don't care when black people are out there killing whitey, and cops, I only care when black rights are threatened".

All in!!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

"I don't care when black people are out there killing whitey, and cops, I only care when black rights are threatened".

All in!!

All of this is straight out of "Rules For Radicals"-Alinsky
Stir the division destroy the status quo and use the confusion, chaos and strife to institute change.
Bill Ayers and the obama are the same traitorous animals IMHO. Fact.

HE GOT ELECTED NOT ONCE BUT TWICE, YET THINGS ONLY GOT WORSE!
He is a huge part of the problem , the division. -Tyr

[jimnyc]

It was their cell phones that were tapped.

Also blaming the people who are the victim of wiretapping is a bold tactic.

I stated that these employees shouldn't be using the business phones, that it should be their cells. You were talking of secretaries/assistants and such. I just read the documents and it was the LEADERS who's cells you refer to. So no, as I said, the employees should be using their cells and not something that is not their property to use for personal stuff. The spy agencies are interested in the political crap, not personal rumors of some assistant.

[Kathianne]

I stated that these employees shouldn't be using the business phones, that it should be their cells. You were talking of secretaries/assistants and such. I just read the documents and it was the LEADERS who's cells you refer to. So no, as I said, the employees should be using their cells and not something that is not their property to use for personal stuff. The spy agencies are interested in the political crap, not personal rumors of some assistant.

I read they want info for. blackmail.

[jimnyc]

I read they want info for. blackmail.

Who...?

[jimnyc]

I read they want info for. blackmail.

Nevermind, I think I just caught on... LOL

[Perianne]

Nevermind, I think I just caught on... LOL

I didn't.

[jimnyc]

I didn't.

I'm assuming info gathering on France, potentially for blackmailing someone? I dunno, maybe Kath will find what she read and post for us.

[Perianne]

I read they want info for. blackmail.


I'm assuming info gathering on France, potentially for blackmailing someone? I dunno, maybe Kath will find what she read and post for us.

Maybe you're right and the period was a simple error in typing.

[NightTrain]

Noir, every country spies on other countries. It's a fact.

America is spied on more than any other country because of the rewards - our technology. And not just the Government is targeted; espionage is carried out daily against giants like Raytheon, Northrup Grumman, Lockheed, Pratt & Whitney, etc., in order to steal technology to try and keep up in the arms race.

You don't have to be an aeronautical engineer to see the striking similarities of China's new 'stealth' fighter and our F-22 :

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7394&stc=1


F-22 :
http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7395&stc=1

J-20:
http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7396&stc=1

I think it's safe to say that the design of the J-20 was the result of the terrabytes of data stolen by Chinese hackers. The internal electronics are where the real magic is, and who knows how much of the avionics and weapons systems electronics were stolen.

And of course, the Russians have been stealing our tech for many decades now, not the least of which were computer chips back in the 70s. Much of our efforts in espionage are geared to finding out who their operatives are within American organizations to root them out and it's a continuous cycle of identifying, rooting out and replacement.

So if we pick up communications from high-level foreign officials discussing the new technology stolen from Lockheed Martin by their mole in America, that's a good tip for us to look for the bastard.

Robert Hanssen was arguably the most damaging of spies ever caught, remember him? He was corrupt FBI agent and at one point was assigned to look for the mole (ironically himself)... he was only identified after the FBI and CIA paid $7 million to a Russian spy for the files that Hanssen provided to them because we couldn't find him on our own :


Out of frustration of interrogating Kelley for a year, and having failed to either bring a case against him or find another suspect, the FBI decided on a new tactic – buying the mole's identity. They searched for possible candidates to buy off and found one – a Russian businessman and former KGB agent whose identity remains classified to this day. An American company cooperated by inviting him to the United States for a business meeting. After his arrival in New York City, the FBI offered him a large sum of money if he would give the name of the mole. The Russian responded that he did not know the name, but that he could get the actual KGB/SVR file regarding the mole. He managed to steal the file from SVR headquarters. The file covered the mole's correspondence with the KGB from 1985 to 1991. The FBI agreed to pay US$7 million for the file, and set up the KGB officer and his family with new identities in the United States. In November 2000, the FBI finally obtained the file, consisting of a package the size of "a medium-sized suitcase." Among the host of documents and computer disks was an audiotape of a July 21, 1986, conversation between the mole and a KGB agent.[citation needed]

When the FBI listened to the tape, they expected to hear the voice of Kelley, still the prime suspect. However, the voice on the recording was definitely not Kelley. When FBI agent Michael Waguespack heard the tape he recognized the voice as familiar, but could not remember who it was. Rifling through the rest of the file, they found notes of the mole using a quote from General George S. Patton about "the purple-pissing Japanese".[40] FBI analyst Bob King remembered Robert Hanssen using that same quote. Waguespack listened to the tape again and recognized it as the voice of Robert Hanssen.

Espionage is a deadly game played by all nations, both offensive and defensive. The USA is not unique and pointing the Finger of Shame at America is silly. You either play the game or get effectively manhandled by your adversaries worldwide for your secrets and that quickly escalates into sabotage and assassinations and ultimately armed overthrowing of the government.

[Drummond]

Noir .. a wider, more generalised point ...

Wikileaks. WHY, Noir, do you think those running it, do what they do ?

Consider earlier issues they've been responsible for, and the enormous potential implicit in all of it for international harm. Consider the likelihood that reckless dissemination of 'sensitive' material can, maybe even has, threatened lives !! Yet, Wikileaks is still in business, doing what it's doing.

I agree with the earlier point that America is a freer nation. I consider it vastly superior to the UK in that respect. Here in the UK, what we have is a carefully managed and masterminded appearance of freedom, which in truth is nothing more than covert control-freakery.

GCHQ was in the news just a couple of days ago, accused of exceeding its authority in its surveillance activities.

Every country DOES spy on every other country. It's a fact of life. BUT ... how come Wikileaks only seems to concentrate its 'revelations' on strong Western powers, such as the the UK, but most specifically the US ??

And how come, Noir, that Assange's chief supporters are from the Left ? John Pilger, for example (re-hired by Piers Morgan during his Daily Mirror days .. a Leftie muckraker who once wrote for the British COMMUNIST rag, the Morning Star) ??

[Noir]

Everyone seems more interested in the idea that 'everyone spys' rather than 'what do you do when a government is caught spying' and not even spying on terrorists/enemies, but the French?! LOL.

[NightTrain]

Everyone seems more interested in the idea that 'everyone spys' rather than 'what do you do when a government is caught spying' and not even spying on terrorists/enemies, but the French?! LOL.


Didn't you read what I posted to you?

How else do you propose to stem the tide of technology flowing out of this country, or even your own country?

Even supposed allies are not above stealing tech. What is your solution?

[jimnyc]

Didn't you read what I posted to you?

How else do you propose to stem the tide of technology flowing out of this country, or even your own country?

Even supposed allies are not above stealing tech. What is your solution?

Some live in naive dream world.

[Noir]

Didn't you read what I posted to you?

How else do you propose to stem the tide of technology flowing out of this country, or even your own country?

Even supposed allies are not above stealing tech. What is your solution?

Do you also want my solution to stopping people stealing from malls?
There is no solution i'm sure you'd agree, but I would say its reasonable to subject those who steal from malls to due process of law when caught.

[revelarts]

"I don't care when black people are out there killing whitey, and cops, I only care when black rights are threatened".

All in!!
Jim do you REALLY HONESTLY think i approve of Blacks killing Whites on the streets?
why would you even say that? seriously are you that pissed at my question?

if you don't have a good come back don't be an Arse and try to make me into a person who wants anyone killed.


But OK. i'll assume you're so DUMB that you still don't understand where i'm coming from after years of reading my post.
i'll try to explain it to you. (you get what give)
Think Jim.
Last I checked no ones repealed any of the laws for citizens to "kill whitey" or kill anyone else.
Only the police and and gov't officials are now constitutionally allowed to kill WHITEY or Blacks or Muslims.
everyone else, white or black, get caught a get trail and go to jail Jim.
So the law works fairly well there. no need to "care" about the law there. except to make sure it's administered fairly. Which i've written about as well.
Understand there now buddy? i can try and explain it again if you like.
i know its hard to understand that some people just want to things to be fair and constitutional and are not driven by race or partisan politics. You keep trying to understand there fella, you'll will one day... i hope.

Now i have a similar question for you .
Do you want the cops to just to burn down all the black neighborhoods and put the rest of the blacks, mexicans and muslims in concentration camps for torture so you'll be safe or do you have another plan?

silly question huh?

[Drummond]

Everyone seems more interested in the idea that 'everyone spys' rather than 'what do you do when a government is caught spying' and not even spying on terrorists/enemies, but the French?! LOL.

And singling out 'a government' is of particular importance, of course.

I didn't think this would be hard to find. Sure enough ...

http://hackwilson.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/wikileaks-anti-american-agenda-and.html


It isn't hard to look at the top secret materials Wikileaks chooses to release as a whole and realize Julian Assange and company have an obvious anti-American agenda. Specifically, an agenda against the American military and our efforts in the war on terrorism.

I noticed this months ago with Wikileaks' release of the infamous 'Collateral Murder' video showing US troops killing Iraqi civilians suspected of being insurgents. This was back in April.

Today, we witness the coward and sex criminal Assange and his cohorts releasing thousands of top secret American documents, including most recently a list of key places of interest we have listed as vital to American national security.

Julian Assange may be Australian. But he is acting as a military combatant against the United States, and his weapon of choice is not an AK-47 or RPG, but the internet, and he is utilizing his resources effectively. He should be treated as such, brought in, tried, convicted, and punished accordingly.

While Assange is defaming America and putting American lives at risk, there are the usual people supporting his actions. Over at the enlightened liberal Daily Kos, we see praise for the "brilliant" Assange as somehow being a champion of freedom. We have the typical liberal response that Wikileaks is simply doing its part to create a more transparent and pure democracy. And Ron Paul, the anarchist who does not, nor will ever, have the support of this libertarian, thinks Julian Assange is doing America a service and should be supported at all costs.

Let's be frank. Liberals love Wikileaks because they make America look bad. They expressed outright glee over the release of documents depicting American war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan. And they are as giddy as ever now with the release of more harmful information ...

John Pilger. Leftie journalist, known to have worked for the Communist Morning Star newspaper, and virulently anti-American and anti-West, is strongly pro-Assange and has fought to secure him his liberty. A piece authored by Pilger, includes:

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/30874-free-julian-assange


Julian Assange is a refugee under international law and he should be given right of passage by the British government out of the UK, to Ecuador. The nonsense about him "jumping bail" is just that – nonsense. If his extradition case went through the British courts today, the European Arrest Warrant would be thrown out and he would be a free man. So what is the British government trying to prove by its absurd police cordon around an embassy whose refuge Assange has no intention of giving up? Why don't they let him go? Why is a man charged with no crime having to spend three years in one room, without light, in the heart of London?

The Assange case amplifies many truths, and one is the growing, global totalitarianism of Washington, regardless of who is elected president.

Pilger is so rabidly anti-American that he's no less against it even when a Leftie is its President.

http://www.newsrealblog.com/2009/07/07/democracy-nows-sleep-inducing-interview-with-marxist-anti-american-john-pilger/


Last evening Amy Goodman’s Democracy Now!, the Marxist “news” program bankrolled by the multi-billionaire George Soros and his Open Society Institute—one of the world’s leading funders of the Left–offered its viewers a predictable and soporific interview with John Pilger, the Australian anti-American Marxist.

Pilger, in case you are unfamiliar with him, calls himself a “journalist” and is a longtime critic of all things American. He is a terrorist-sympathizing Marxist who has thrown his lot in with leftist causes all over the world. He is a huge admirer of Cuban dictator and leftist icon Fidel Castro and Venezuela's soon-to-be-President-for-life Hugo Chavez, going so far as to sign a 2007 letter in support of Chavez's refusal to renew the license of Venezuela's largest television network, Radio Caracas Television. Yes, Pilger signed on to the idea of suppressing the Venezuelan people’s freedom of speech – a remarkable achievement for a journalist!

Pilger’s hatred of America is so profound that he once admitted, in a 2004 interview, that he approved of the killing of American, British or Australian troops by their enemies in Iraq, because they're 'legitimate targets'.� His other favorite target is Israel, and it is his contention that Western support for that country is the main cause for the persistent unrest in the Middle East.

THIS is the reality of Wikileaks support, folks. It's agenda-driven to the hilt.

[Noir]

Lets turn this topic into a discussion about wikileaks, rather than illegal wire tapping. Since there is no room on the internet for a separate thread (it's filled to bursting i tell you!).

[aboutime]

Wikileaks is nothing but the replacement for the Lies about the Obama admin being the Most Transparent in American History.

At least WIKI...tells the truth.

[aboutime]

Everyone seems more interested in the idea that 'everyone spys' rather than 'what do you do when a government is caught spying' and not even spying on terrorists/enemies, but the French?! LOL.

Noir. You really should begin to read as much World History as you can get your hands on.

Truth is. Nations have been spying on each other since the FIRST QUEEN/KING of England. Or, you can search farther back...if you dare; to learn that Even the ROMANS, such as Caesar..., demanded that his guards, and senators always spy on their enemies, and friends.

Today. You have to be honest with yourself. Spying has been going on, and continues to go on. No matter who claims they are INNOCENT.

[Noir]

I'll add another to the 'but everybody spies' camp.

[aboutime]

I'll add another to the 'but everybody spies' camp.

That's exactly what is happening, and has been happening longer than You, and I have been alive.

If it makes you feel sharper, or wiser to add such a silly thing. You win. Feel better now?

[Drummond]

I'll add another to the 'but everybody spies' camp.

A challenge, Noir.

Can you supply us with a list of those Nation States that you know for a certain fact never spy on anyone else (by that, I mean those who'd have the capability, but don't take advantage of it) ?

[revelarts]

I'll add another to the 'but everybody spies' camp.

They're all just fine with it as along as people similar to Wiki leaks, Bradley Manning or Edward Snowden don't tell the public (the public who all the spying is suppose to benefit) anything about wrong doing or lies by the gov't.
At that point they are evil traitors that should be at the very least shot.

Big Brother can not be exposed by some worker bee.
They they signed a paper swearing not to tell the secrets they've spied out!
But officials who the worker bees expose breaking the law swore to uphold the constitution and follow the law but that doesn't matter. Only if you sign a top secret form are you really guilty of anything. worker bees don't get to expose there betters.
there's other way to do that.... like... other legal ways... like... legal channels.

[Noir]

A challenge, Noir.

Can you supply us with a list of those Nation States that you know for a certain fact never spy on anyone else (by that, I mean those who'd have the capability, but don't take advantage of it) ?

No, I can not.

Now a challenge for you - What penalty do you believe the U.S should be subject to, having being caught breaching international law by spying on another nations citizens?

[Perianne]

No, I can not.

Now a challenge for you - What penalty do you believe the U.S should be subject to, having being caught breaching international law by spying on another nations citizens?

I think they should put Obama in jail for life.