Ukraine. The story of one of stupidity. [Archive] - Debate Policy

Balu

06-26-2015, 02:00 PM

http://i.imgur.com/zuGEZvO.png

http://i.imgur.com/r3vPMBU.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/yTBBhYa.png

http://i.imgur.com/OgXNwoP.jpg

Perianne

06-26-2015, 02:26 PM

I don't get it. What stupidity?

Balu

06-26-2015, 02:47 PM

I don't get it. What stupidity?

http://newstes.ru/uploads/posts/2015-05/priezd-kerri-i-nuland-ne-obmanet-moskvu-eskobar_2.jpeg

Beware of Greeks bearing gifts

or

"Will you walk into my parlor?" said the spider to the fly;
"'Tis the prettiest little parlor that ever you did spy.
The way into my parlor is up a winding stair,
And I have many pretty things to show when you are there."
"O no, no," said the little fly, "To ask me is in vain,
For who goes up your winding stair can ne'er come down again."

"I'm sure you must be weary, dear, with soaring up so high;
Will you rest upon my little bed?" said the spider to the fly.
"There are pretty curtains drawn around, the sheets are fine and thin,
And if you like to rest awhile, I'll snugly tuck you in."
"O no, no," said the little fly, "for I've often heard it said,
They NEVER, NEVER WAKE again, who sleep upon YOUR bed."

Said the cunning spider to the fly, "Dear friend, what shall I do,
To prove the warm affection I've always felt for you?
I have within my pantry good store of all that's nice;
I'm sure you're very welcome; will you please to take a slice?
"O no, no," said the little fly, "kind sir, that cannot be;
I've heard what's in your pantry, and I do not wish to see."

"Sweet creature!" said the spider, "you're witty and you're wise,
How handsome are your gauzy wings, how brilliant are your eyes!
I have a little looking-glass upon my parlor shelf,
If you'll step in one moment dear, you shall behold yourself."
I thank you, gentle sir," she said, "for what you're pleased to say,
And bidding you good-morning NOW, I'll call ANOTHER day."

The spider turned him round about, and went into his den,
For well he knew the silly fly would soon be back again:
So he wove a subtle web, in a little corner sly,
And set his table ready to dine upon the fly.
Then he came out to his door again, and merrily did sing,
"Come hither, hither, pretty fly, with the pearl and silver wing:
Your robes are green and purple; there's a crest upon your head;
Your eyes are like the diamond bright, but mine are dull as lead."

Alas, alas! how very soon this silly little fly,
Hearing his wily flattering words, came slowly flitting by.
With buzzing wings she hung aloft, then near and nearer drew,
Thinking only of her crested head - POOR FOOLISH THING! At last,
Up jumped the cunning spider, and fiercely held her fast.
He dragged her up his winding stair, into his dismal den,
Within his little parlor; but she ne'er came out again!

And now, dear little children, who may this story read,
To idle, silly, flattering words, I pray you ne'er give heed;
Unto an evil counselor close heart, and ear, and eye,
And take a lesson from this tale of the Spider and the Fly.

LongTermGuy

06-26-2015, 03:47 PM

`Balu....This one here is pretty....My kinda Gal...Good "kerrvv" resumish?

http://i.imgur.com/r3vPMBU.jpg

aboutime

06-26-2015, 03:50 PM

Thank you Balu. It takes courage to finally admit to personal stupidity.

Noted!

Balu

06-26-2015, 04:26 PM

`Balu....This one here is pretty....My kinda Gal...Good "kerrvv" resumish?

http://i.imgur.com/r3vPMBU.jpg

For her all this is in her nonreturnable past. But she is so young. Everything could have been in a different way if they less jump and think more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKzikHhtfI4

Kathianne

06-26-2015, 04:32 PM

Balu, you mean acquiesce to Russia, no?

Balu

06-26-2015, 04:49 PM

Balu, you mean acquiesce to Russia, no?
No! I mean that everybody should be prepared to the consequences of their decisions. "Roads We Take" - a very good story.

Drummond

06-26-2015, 04:55 PM

For her all this is in her nonreturnable past. But she is so young. Everything could have been in a different way if they less jump and think more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKzikHhtfI4

'Her nonreturnable past', you say.

Well ... Ukraine's 'nonreturnable past', if you go back far enough, concerns Ukraine's subjugation as an unfree State under the dominion of the Soviet Union. I've a funny feeling - but, correct me if I'm wrong ! - that you don't lament THAT past.

Can it be that Ukrainian people have long memories ? Perhaps they have a past they prefer NOT to revisit, AT ALL ? And, perhaps, they dare to follow the lesson that so many in history have had to learn, before them ... that freedom, all too often, HAS TO BE FOUGHT FOR, TO OBTAIN, AND KEEP ?

Are they being 'naughty', in your estimation, Balu ?

Balu

06-26-2015, 05:20 PM

'Her nonreturnable past', you say.

Well ... Ukraine's 'nonreturnable past', if you go back far enough, concerns Ukraine's subjugation as an unfree State under the dominion of the Soviet Union. I've a funny feeling - but, correct me if I'm wrong ! - that you don't lament THAT past.

Can it be that Ukrainian people have long memories ? Perhaps they have a past they prefer NOT to revisit, AT ALL ? And, perhaps, they dare to follow the lesson that so many in history have had to learn, before them ... that freedom, all too often, HAS TO BE FOUGHT FOR, TO OBTAIN, AND KEEP ?

Are they being 'naughty', in your estimation, Balu ?
I like you post. Thank you. But let me answer tomorrow, as Moscow time now is 1:20 a.m. and I am to go to bed. OK?

LongTermGuy

06-26-2015, 05:23 PM

For her all this is in her nonreturnable past. But she is so young. Everything could have been in a different way if they less jump and think more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKzikHhtfI4

*I was talking about that picture `in that instant` of time only Balu ....

LongTermGuy

06-26-2015, 05:25 PM

Moscow time now is 1:20 a.m. and I am to go to bed. OK?

****
No "OK" you stay here....no sleep for you...and no more vodka rations for 2 weeks.

Balu

06-26-2015, 05:31 PM

****
No "OK" you stay here....no sleep for you...and no more vodka rations for 2 weeks.

http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/light_skin/bye.gif

LongTermGuy

06-26-2015, 05:32 PM

http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/light_skin/bye.gif

Ok...you go to bed now....say your prayers....

Balu

06-27-2015, 12:10 PM

I like you post. Thank you. But let me answer tomorrow, as Moscow time now is 1:20 a.m. and I am to go to bed. OK?

 [I]I am sure that you agree that there are different "FREEDOMS". There is freedom to construct, build and develop and there is also a freedom to ruin, degraded and suppress. The is a freedom of a five y.o. child or madman and there is a freedom of a grownup person who use to count the results of their decisions and take responsibility for their consequences.
Now let us see some of the History and will try to find out how "Ukraine" appear and identify who Ukrainians are.
First, etymology of the word "Ukraine". "U- krain" means "near - the edge". In Russian Empire the was no such administrative unit as "Ukraine". There were "MaloRussia" (Small Russia - yellow and light brawn ) and "NovoRussia" (New Russia - light blue and violet). Russians (by nationality) lived on all these territories and they spoke Russian and South Russian dialect of Russian. You know that there are specific dialects in different parts of GB and the USA, while they speak the same language.
The term "Ukraine" as identification of the territory appeared first on the maps of Austro-Hungarian General Headquarters.
This was a brief excursus into the History and now let us see the map below:

http://s00.yaplakal.com/pics/pics_original/5/1/2/3420215.gif

When forming the USSR (1922) Lenin (Blanck, the surname of his mother) economically enforced new born Socialist Republic handing over to Ukraine the territories drawn light-blue on the map. The USSR has THREE Constitutions, adopted in 1924, 1936 and in 1977. Each of the USSR Constitution provides for free seceding from the USSR and Ukraine used this possibility having conducted referendum in December 1991. It was let free to their independent sailing while Russia took all the debts of the USSR as its successor.

But... the Ukraine and Ukrainians have neither the mentality, nor experience or the will to construct and develop own State. (The only thing they dream about is free visa excess to EU.) All there previous experience was to live on subsidies from Russia. A quarter of a Century proved their inability to develop their own State. They were not able to increase not so much but just keep the industrial and agricultural potential they had at the time when escaping from the USSR. An example: Soviet Ukraine had THREE Maritime Shipping Companies and BLASCO was the Largest in Europe and the Second in the World.
You know that there are a lot of nationalities but not just disparate groups of people (Ukrainians are an artificial nationality far from Nation) but not every is able to create and secure own State.
Moreover they are not able to negotiate with their own citizens. The stumbling block in Ukraine is Russian language as one of the State languages and Unitarity of the State. The East of Ukraine want to be free to elect their own Authorities but not that appointed for them by Kiev. This is the reason of Civil War in Donbas. The Crimeans every day thank God that this Cup passed them.

I would like to draw you attention to the fact you might be no aware of - every third family in Russia and Ukraineу is a mixed family who has relatives in OUR countries. This make the situation very complicated.
And, finally, about the "European Choice" of Ukraine. If not putting the ears at the shoulder width listening to the fair tales of the West, there is NO place for Ukrainian items in EU in assortment and quantities enough to cover their import needs and without the privileged custom and taxation regime Russia granted to Ukraine, their production is not competitive in Russian market neither.
But they are convinced that this is THEIR choice. Let it be so.
This is the price for their FREEDOM from brains. This or that way Russia will help the POPULATION of Ukraine to SURVIVE, but we are not inclined to contain them further. Hope now it is the turn of the West.

tailfins

06-27-2015, 01:12 PM

[I]I am sure that you agree that there are different "FREEDOMS". There is freedom to construct, build and develop and there is also a freedom to ruin, degraded and suppress. The is a freedom of a five y.o. child or madman and there is a freedom of a grownup person who use to count the results of their decisions and take responsibility for their consequences.
Now let us see some of the History and will try to find out how "Ukraine" appear and identify who Ukrainians are.
First, etymology of the word "Ukraine". "U- krain" means "near - the edge". In Russian Empire the was no such administrative unit as "Ukraine". There were "MaloRussia" (Small Russia - yellow and light brawn ) and "NovoRussia" (New Russia - light blue and violet). Russians (by nationality) lived on all these territories and they spoke Russian and South Russian dialect of Russian. You know that there are specific dialects in different parts of GB and the USA, while they speak the same language.
The term "Ukraine" as identification of the territory appeared first on the maps of Austro-Hungarian General Headquarters.
This was a brief excursus into the History and now let us see the map below:

http://s00.yaplakal.com/pics/pics_original/5/1/2/3420215.gif

When forming the USSR (1922) Lenin (Blanck, the surname of his mother) economically enforced new born Socialist Republic handing over to Ukraine the territories drawn light-blue on the map. The USSR has THREE Constitutions, adopted in 1924, 1936 and in 1977. Each of the USSR Constitution provides for free seceding from the USSR and Ukraine used this possibility having conducted referendum in December 1991. It was let free to their independent sailing while Russia took all the debts of the USSR as its successor.

But... the Ukraine and Ukrainians have neither the mentality, nor experience or the will to construct and develop own State. (The only thing they dream about is free visa excess to EU.) All there previous experience was to live on subsidies from Russia. A quarter of a Century proved their inability to develop their own State. They were not able to increase not so much but just keep the industrial and agricultural potential they had at the time when escaping from the USSR. An example: Soviet Ukraine had THREE Maritime Shipping Companies and BLASCO was the Largest in Europe and the Second in the World.
You know that there are a lot of nationalities but not just disparate groups of people (Ukrainians are an artificial nationality far from Nation) but not every is able to create and secure own State.
Moreover they are not able to negotiate with their own citizens. The stumbling block in Ukraine is Russian language as one of the State languages and Unitarity of the State. The East of Ukraine want to be free to elect their own Authorities but not that appointed for them by Kiev. This is the reason of Civil War in Donbas. The Crimeans every day thank God that this Cup passed them.

I would like to draw you attention to the fact you might be no aware of - every third family in Russia and Ukraineу is a mixed family who has relatives in OUR countries. This make the situation very complicated.
And, finally, about the "European Choice" of Ukraine. If not putting the ears at the shoulder width listening to the fair tales of the West, there is NO place for Ukrainian items in EU in assortment and quantities enough to cover their import needs and without the privileged custom and taxation regime Russia granted to Ukraine, their production is not competitive in Russian market neither.
But they are convinced that this is THEIR choice. Let it be so.
This is the price for their FREEDOM from brains. This or that way Russia will help the POPULATION of Ukraine to SURVIVE, but we are not inclined to contain them further. Hope now it is the turn of the West.


The Soviet Constitution is as Orwellian as it gets: By "rights" enumerated, except as provided by law.

The Communists considered THIS Soviet Territory:

http://blogs.als.net/Themes/ALSTDI_Global/Images/Globe_2013.jpg

Balu

06-27-2015, 01:27 PM

The Soviet Constitution is as Orwellian as it gets: By "rights" enumerated, except as provided by law.

The Communists considered THIS Soviet Territory:

http://blogs.als.net/Themes/ALSTDI_Global/Images/Globe_2013.jpg

Enormous every day drinking whiskey is harmful for brains, adequacy and health in general. Take care of yourself. Though... this is non of my business. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/dirol.gif

tailfins

06-27-2015, 01:47 PM

Enormous every day drinking whiskey is harmful for brains, adequacy and health in general. Take care of yourself. Though... this is non of my business. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/dirol.gif

Does that mean you confirm being a Communist Sympathizer?

Here's my message for you! Carefully read the lyrics captioned in this song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSxSc3ylAkg

Drummond

06-27-2015, 01:55 PM

[I]I am sure that you agree that there are different "FREEDOMS". There is freedom to construct, build and develop and there is also a freedom to ruin, degraded and suppress. The is a freedom of a five y.o. child or madman and there is a freedom of a grownup person who use to count the results of their decisions and take responsibility for their consequences.
Now let us see some of the History and will try to find out how "Ukraine" appear and identify who Ukrainians are.
First, etymology of the word "Ukraine". "U- krain" means "near - the edge". In Russian Empire the was no such administrative unit as "Ukraine". There were "MaloRussia" (Small Russia - yellow and light brawn ) and "NovoRussia" (New Russia - light blue and violet). Russians (by nationality) lived on all these territories and they spoke Russian and South Russian dialect of Russian. You know that there are specific dialects in different parts of GB and the USA, while they speak the same language.
The term "Ukraine" as identification of the territory appeared first on the maps of Austro-Hungarian General Headquarters.
This was a brief excursus into the History and now let us see the map below:

http://s00.yaplakal.com/pics/pics_original/5/1/2/3420215.gif

When forming the USSR (1922) Lenin (Blanck, the surname of his mother) economically enforced new born Socialist Republic handing over to Ukraine the territories drawn light-blue on the map. The USSR has THREE Constitutions, adopted in 1924, 1936 and in 1977. Each of the USSR Constitution provides for free seceding from the USSR and Ukraine used this possibility having conducted referendum in December 1991. It was let free to their independent sailing while Russia took all the debts of the USSR as its successor.

But... the Ukraine and Ukrainians have neither the mentality, nor experience or the will to construct and develop own State. (The only thing they dream about is free visa excess to EU.) All there previous experience was to live on subsidies from Russia. A quarter of a Century proved their inability to develop their own State. They were not able to increase not so much but just keep the industrial and agricultural potential they had at the time when escaping from the USSR. An example: Soviet Ukraine had THREE Maritime Shipping Companies and BLASCO was the Largest in Europe and the Second in the World.
You know that there are a lot of nationalities but not just disparate groups of people (Ukrainians are an artificial nationality far from Nation) but not every is able to create and secure own State.
Moreover they are not able to negotiate with their own citizens. The stumbling block in Ukraine is Russian language as one of the State languages and Unitarity of the State. The East of Ukraine want to be free to elect their own Authorities but not that appointed for them by Kiev. This is the reason of Civil War in Donbas. The Crimeans every day thank God that this Cup passed them.

I would like to draw you attention to the fact you might be no aware of - every third family in Russia and Ukraineу is a mixed family who has relatives in OUR countries. This make the situation very complicated.
And, finally, about the "European Choice" of Ukraine. If not putting the ears at the shoulder width listening to the fair tales of the West, there is NO place for Ukrainian items in EU in assortment and quantities enough to cover their import needs and without the privileged custom and taxation regime Russia granted to Ukraine, their production is not competitive in Russian market neither.
But they are convinced that this is THEIR choice. Let it be so.
This is the price for their FREEDOM from brains. This or that way Russia will help the POPULATION of Ukraine to SURVIVE, but we are not inclined to contain them further. Hope now it is the turn of the West.


Balu, thank you for your thoughtful, detailed reply. You've obviously put quite a bit of work into it.

I'd suggest that there's a level of judgmentality in it, though, which assumes much.

Let me first say that there is no such thing as a 'natural' country. All countries are artificial constructs, and have had to find their place in the world, and forge out their own futures. Some succeed better than others. Some succeed spectacularly well, from impoverished beginnings. I'm struck by the fact that you're making the case you are, on the forum that you are, run by citizens of a country that started out with VERY poor beginnings, indeed ... and look at the great success story it's become !!

Didn't America start out, essentially, as a colonial outpost, not its own country ? They broke free, formed their own concepts of what they wanted to be. Their own drive to succeed has allowed them to win through. So I ask: who are you, what is Russia, who are ANY of us, to say that Ukraine neither CAN forge its own successful future, nor shouldn't be given the fullest possible opportunities to manage it ?

Certain conditions define the past. Certain OTHER conditions, to which we can perhaps only dimly identify at the present time, will define whatever future Ukraine has. Or, if Putin keeps going in for land grabs, perhaps what future it'll be ROBBED of.

How about Austria ? It has far more of a history, perhaps, than Ukraine ... but its territory has changed hands, been identifiable in different ways, according to who held dominion over that territory. In character ... they're Germanic, just as it could be said that Ukraine is 'Russian'. Austria, in its native German, is .. Österreich, or 'eastern realm', just as Ukraine is describable as the 'eastern realm' of the area you provided your map of.

Who would argue that Austria doesn't have a right to exist ? Your argument about Ukraine hinges on what you say is a lack of their history, that they have Russian ties, a Russian language. Well, the same was once true of Austria.

Last century, though, Austria's identity WAS thrown into doubt. Its native language being German, its culture essentially German, its 'eastern realm' status comparable, descriptively and geographically being to Germany what Ukraine is to Russia .. do you not perceive the similarities ?

A certain 'notable German' (or, so he himself would've liked to see himself as being) saw this, much as Putin sees Ukraine. We saw what he did about it. Denying Austria her autonomy, he annexed Austria to Germany. His name was Adolf Hitler, and he caused the European start of the Second World War.

Austria was denied its future .. until it was eventually given it back. Ukraine, today, has a power ranged against it whose leader wishes for Ukraine what Hitler wished for Austria.

Austria was, once, as young a country and territory as Ukraine is, by your own account, Balu. But Ukraine shouldn't have its chance at a future throttled by authoritarian judgmentality and external power grabs, any more than Austria should, today.

You want to say that Ukraine doesn't deserve a future, isn't up to creating a decent one for itself ? Well ... once upon a time, there were those who might've said the same for a future Austria.

There were even those who had certain such opinions for the future of America.

How justified were THEY, Balu ? Tell us ...

tailfins

06-27-2015, 03:55 PM

Balu, thank you for your thoughtful, detailed reply. You've obviously put quite a bit of work into it.

I'd suggest that there's a level of judgmentality in it, though, which assumes much.

Let me first say that there is no such thing as a 'natural' country. All countries are artificial constructs, and have had to find their place in the world, and forge out their own futures. Some succeed better than others. Some succeed spectacularly well, from impoverished beginnings. I'm struck by the fact that you're making the case you are, on the forum that you are, run by citizens of a country that started out with VERY poor beginnings, indeed ... and look at the great success story it's become !!

Didn't America start out, essentially, as a colonial outpost, not its own country ? They broke free, formed their own concepts of what they wanted to be. Their own drive to succeed has allowed them to win through. So I ask: who are you, what is Russia, who are ANY of us, to say that Ukraine neither CAN forge its own successful future, nor shouldn't be given the fullest possible opportunities to manage it ?

Certain conditions define the past. Certain OTHER conditions, to which we can perhaps only dimly identify at the present time, will define whatever future Ukraine has. Or, if Putin keeps going in for land grabs, perhaps what future it'll be ROBBED of.

How about Austria ? It has far more of a history, perhaps, than Ukraine ... but its territory has changed hands, been identifiable in different ways, according to who held dominion over that territory. In character ... they're Germanic, just as it could be said that Ukraine is 'Russian'. Austria, in its native German, is .. Österreich, or 'eastern realm', just as Ukraine is describable as the 'eastern realm' of the area you provided your map of.

Who would argue that Austria doesn't have a right to exist ? Your argument about Ukraine hinges on what you say is a lack of their history, that they have Russian ties, a Russian language. Well, the same was once true of Austria.

Last century, though, Austria's identity WAS thrown into doubt. Its native language being German, its culture essentially German, its 'eastern realm' status comparable, descriptively and geographically being to Germany what Ukraine is to Russia .. do you not perceive the similarities ?

A certain 'notable German' (or, so he himself would've liked to see himself as being) saw this, much as Putin sees Ukraine. We saw what he did about it. Denying Austria her autonomy, he annexed Austria to Germany. His name was Adolf Hitler, and he caused the European start of the Second World War.

Austria was denied its future .. until it was eventually given it back. Ukraine, today, has a power ranged against it whose leader wishes for Ukraine what Hitler wished for Austria.

Austria was, once, as young a country and territory as Ukraine is, by your own account, Balu. But Ukraine shouldn't have its chance at a future throttled by authoritarian judgmentality and external power grabs, any more than Austria should, today.

You want to say that Ukraine doesn't deserve a future, isn't up to creating a decent one for itself ? Well ... once upon a time, there were those who might've said the same for a future Austria.

There were even those who had certain such opinions for the future of America.

How justified were THEY, Balu ? Tell us ...

What really ticks me off about his attitude is this:

As someone made into a multi-national corporate creature, I understand that you employ greatness where ever you find it. If a good team member is sitting in Kyiv and has good internet, you tap that talent. If they happen to be in Moscow or Kamchatka the same principle applies. Things only become a problem if the government takes most of their wages, defeating efforts to build team morale. The idea that without seeing what someone accomplishes, judging them incompetent because they happen to live in Kyiv really annoys me. And yes, I'm using the Ukrainian spelling of the capital just to annoy him.

Balu

06-27-2015, 04:11 PM

Balu, thank you for your thoughtful, detailed reply. You've obviously put quite a bit of work into it.

I'd suggest that there's a level of judgmentality in it, though, which assumes much.

Let me first say that there is no such thing as a 'natural' country. All countries are artificial constructs, and have had to find their place in the world (1), and forge out their own futures. Some succeed better than others. Some succeed spectacularly well, from impoverished beginnings. I'm struck by the fact that you're making the case you are, on the forum that you are, run by citizens of a country that started out with VERY poor beginnings, indeed ... and look at the great success story it's become !!

Didn't America start out, essentially, as a colonial outpost, not its own country ? They broke free, formed their own concepts of what they wanted to be. Their own drive to succeed has allowed them to win through (2). So I ask: who are you, what is Russia, who are ANY of us, to say that Ukraine neither CAN forge its own successful future, nor shouldn't be given the fullest possible opportunities to manage it? (3)

Certain conditions define the past. Certain OTHER conditions, to which we can perhaps only dimly identify at the present time, will define whatever future Ukraine has. Or, if Putin keeps going in for land grabs, perhaps what future it'll be ROBBED of. (4)

How about Austria ? It has far more of a history, perhaps, than Ukraine ... but its territory has changed hands, been identifiable in different ways, according to who held dominion over that territory. In character ... they're Germanic, just as it could be said that Ukraine is 'Russian'. Austria, in its native German, is .. Österreich, or 'eastern realm', just as Ukraine is describable as the 'eastern realm' of the area you provided your map of.

Who would argue that Austria doesn't have a right to exist ? Your argument about Ukraine hinges on what you say is a lack of their history, that they have Russian ties, a Russian language. Well, the same was once true of Austria.

Last century, though, Austria's identity WAS thrown into doubt. Its native language being German, its culture essentially German, its 'eastern realm' status comparable, descriptively and geographically being to Germany what Ukraine is to Russia .. do you not perceive the similarities ? (5)

A certain 'notable German' (or, so he himself would've liked to see himself as being) saw this, much as Putin sees Ukraine. We saw what he did about it. Denying Austria her autonomy, he annexed Austria to Germany. His name was Adolf Hitler, and he caused the European start of the Second World War.

Austria was denied its future .. until it was eventually given it back. Ukraine, today, has a power ranged against it whose leader wishes for Ukraine what Hitler wished for Austria.

Austria was, once, as young a country and territory as Ukraine is, by your own account, Balu. But Ukraine shouldn't have its chance at a future throttled by authoritarian judgmentality and external power grabs, any more than Austria should, today.

You want to say that Ukraine doesn't deserve a future, isn't up to creating a decent one for itself ? Well ... once upon a time, there were those who might've said the same for a future Austria.

There were even those who had certain such opinions for the future of America.

How justified were THEY, Balu ? Tell us ...

First, I DO NOT want to convince anybody in anything. I am saying only what I think.
Now I'll go by points BUT for the LAST time.

1. There ARE natural countries which were and WILL BE formed in a course of the History, and ARTIFICIAL countries, formed occasionally or by the will of the other countries who DIRECTLY interfere into this process. Ukraine is one of them.
2. You wrote right. The USA formed THEIR OWN concept and FOUGHT for this. But there is NOTHING in common with Ukraine, who got the "independence" as a byproduct of August putsch in Moscow in 1991.
3. They had a quarter of a Century to achieve SOMETHING positive in construction and development of their country if they WANTED and WERE ABLE, taking into consideration Russian assistance at about $250 billion (!!!) and Ukrainian EXCELLENT starting position in 1991. You may compare it with the position of post-war Germany and Japan and the results THEY achieved by 1969.
4. DO NOT be zombie of your propaganda and DO UNDERSTAND that the West ORGANIZED military coup in Ukraine and PUT their pawns in Kiev the next day after signing the agreement between so called "opposition" with legitimate President Yanukovich. YOU ruined the State structure of Ukraine and Crimea WAS FREE to choose their own way to live. There was a REFERENDUM during which the population of Peninsula and Crimean Republic where legitimate authorities REMAINED, decided their future faith. Russia met them half a way. Over! The question is closed. The will of people is above all, even above you puppets placed in Kiev.
5. There is NO similarities. Austria's NEVER been a part of Germany. It was a part of Austro-Hungarian Empire. (1867–1918). There WAS NO referendum of Austrian citizens as to their will to be a part of Germany. So leave Hitler with his annexing Austria, you like to mention so often, to yourself and to YOUR foreign policy of that time(*) as well as Munich plot, which untied his hands.

(*)
"...In November 1937, the British Minister Halifax, during the talks with Hitler, made on behalf of his government the statement that Great Brittan agree to the "acquisition" of Austria by Germany. A little later, February 22, 1938, British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain told Parliament that Austria can not rely on the protection of the League of Nations: "We must not deceive, or encourage small weak States, promising them protection from the League of Nations and appropriate action on our part, because we know that nothing like this will be taken. ..."

tailfins

06-27-2015, 04:19 PM

First, I DO NOT want to convince anybody in anything. I am saying only what I think.
Now I'll go by points BUT for the LAST time.

1. There ARE natural countries which were and WILL BE formed in a course of the History, and ARTIFICIAL countries, formed occasionally or by the will of the other countries who DIRECTLY interfere into this process. Ukraine is one of them.
2. You wrote right. The USA formed THEIR OWN concept and FOUGHT for this. But there is NOTHING in common with Ukraine, who got the "independence" as a byproduct of August putsch in Moscow in 1991.
3. They had a quarter of a Century to achieve SOMETHING positive in construction and development of their country if they WANTED and WERE ABLE, taking into consideration Russian assistance at about $250 billion (!!!) and Ukrainian EXCELLENT starting position in 1991. You may compare it with the position of post-war Germany and Japan and the results THEY achieved by 1969.
4. DO NOT be zombie of your propaganda and DO UNDERSTAND that the West ORGANIZED military coup in Ukraine and PUT their pawns in Kiev the next day after signing the agreement between so called "opposition" with legitimate President Yanukovich. YOU ruined the State structure of Ukraine and Crimea WAS FREE to choose their own way to live. There was a REFERENDUM during which the population of Peninsula and Crimean Republic where legitimate authorities REMAINED, decided their future faith. Russia met them half a way. Over! The question is closed. The will of people is above all, even above you puppets placed in Kiev.
5. There is NO similarities. Austria's NEVER been a part of Germany. It was a part of Austro-Hungarian Empire. (1867–1918). There WAS NO referendum of Austrian citizens as to their will to be a part of Germany. So leave Hitler with his annexing Austria, you like to mention so often, to yourself and to YOUR foreign policy of that time(*) as well as Munich plot, which untied his hands.

(*)
"...In November 1937, the British Minister Halifax, during the talks with Hitler, made on behalf of his government the statement that Great Brittan agree to the "acquisition" of Austria by Germany. A little later, February 22, 1938, British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain told Parliament that Austria can not rely on the protection of the League of Nations: "We must not deceive, or encourage small weak States, promising them protection from the League of Nations and appropriate action on our part, because we know that nothing like this will be taken. ..."

I see one thing you miss: Communism is an enemy ideology. If you present yourself as pro-Communist, you present yourself as an enemy: Better dead than red!

Balu

06-27-2015, 06:02 PM

I see one thing you miss: Communism is an enemy ideology. If you present yourself as pro-Communist, you present yourself as an enemy: Better dead than red!

"Better to lose with a clever than to find with a fool." - Russian saying.

tailfins

06-27-2015, 06:21 PM

"Better to lose with a clever than to find with a fool." - Russian saying.

What can I say folks? Balu has awakened the sleeping John Bircher. I salute the leader, Congressman Larry McDonald, also killed by the Soviets!

Later that year, in an attempt to expand the Western Goals Foundation overseas, he boarded Korean Air Lines flight 007, from New York City to Seoul, South Korea. On September 1, 1983 while en route to Seoul, following a refueling stop in Alaska, KAL 007 deviated off course into Soviet airspace where it was shot down by a Soviet MIG fighter jet over Sakhalin Island. This resulted in the loss of KAL 007’s crew and its passengers, 269 people, including Rep. McDonald. Missing in Action, Larry McDonald was the only U.S. Congressman lost to the communists during the Cold War. A memorial highway has been named in his honor in Georgia.

http://www.jbs.org/rep-larry-mcdonald

Drummond

06-27-2015, 07:01 PM

First, I DO NOT want to convince anybody in anything. I am saying only what I think.
Now I'll go by points BUT for the LAST time.

1. There ARE natural countries which were and WILL BE formed in a course of the History, and ARTIFICIAL countries, formed occasionally or by the will of the other countries who DIRECTLY interfere into this process. Ukraine is one of them.
2. You wrote right. The USA formed THEIR OWN concept and FOUGHT for this. But there is NOTHING in common with Ukraine, who got the "independence" as a byproduct of August putsch in Moscow in 1991.
3. They had a quarter of a Century to achieve SOMETHING positive in construction and development of their country if they WANTED and WERE ABLE, taking into consideration Russian assistance at about $250 billion (!!!) and Ukrainian EXCELLENT starting position in 1991. You may compare it with the position of post-war Germany and Japan and the results THEY achieved by 1969.
4. DO NOT be zombie of your propaganda and DO UNDERSTAND that the West ORGANIZED military coup in Ukraine and PUT their pawns in Kiev the next day after signing the agreement between so called "opposition" with legitimate President Yanukovich. YOU ruined the State structure of Ukraine and Crimea WAS FREE to choose their own way to live. There was a REFERENDUM during which the population of Peninsula and Crimean Republic where legitimate authorities REMAINED, decided their future faith. Russia met them half a way. Over! The question is closed. The will of people is above all, even above you puppets placed in Kiev.
5. There is NO similarities. Austria's NEVER been a part of Germany. It was a part of Austro-Hungarian Empire. (1867–1918). There WAS NO referendum of Austrian citizens as to their will to be a part of Germany. So leave Hitler with his annexing Austria, you like to mention so often, to yourself and to YOUR foreign policy of that time(*) as well as Munich plot, which untied his hands.

(*)
"...In November 1937, the British Minister Halifax, during the talks with Hitler, made on behalf of his government the statement that Great Brittan agree to the "acquisition" of Austria by Germany. A little later, February 22, 1938, British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain told Parliament that Austria can not rely on the protection of the League of Nations: "We must not deceive, or encourage small weak States, promising them protection from the League of Nations and appropriate action on our part, because we know that nothing like this will be taken. ..."

1. Maybe your idea of a natural country is different from mine. I say that no such thing exists, because people determine what the country is, or is not. Histories, processes deriving from them, may differ. But all are invented by people. All consist of what they do, bE they democracies, dictatorships, principalities, kingdoms, whatever. People fashion what those countries become. I say that Ukraine should be able to do the very same. Who's Russia, to object ?

2. You're discussing a detail of historical development. It doesn't disqualify Ukraine from having the right to exist !

3. Your point is pure judgmentality. Who are you to judge their FITNESS to exist as a self-determining entity ?

4. The referendum you refer to was judged illegal internationally. Further, we all know Putin rigged the situation so that those friendliest to him would sway the fate of Crimea in his direction. Yes, I'm sure you want to think of the Crimean situation is closed. It's easier that way, considering all the nuances involved.

5. Yes, Austria was part of the Austro-Hungarian empire .. meaning that it was not, at that time, a purely self-contained entity. Regardless of its precise form, I concede it has a form of history .. and my previous post conceded as much. HOWEVER .. your claim 'Austria's NEVER been a part of Germany' is outrageous. Even leaving aside their common language and genetic roots ... Hitler DID ANNEXE THE COUNTRY. THIS IS HISTORICAL FACT.

Putin has now done the same thing with Crimea. And whether or not you wish to concede the reality, we in the West have concerns as to Putin's ambitions in other former Soviet territories. Some of us, Balu, see him as indistinguishable from Hitler in his ambitions.

If Putin can prove otherwise - all well and good. He'd achieve a positive effect if he now left Ukraine completely alone. But, what are the chances of that ?

As for ..

"...In November 1937, the British Minister Halifax, during the talks with Hitler, made on behalf of his government the statement that Great Brittan agree to the "acquisition" of Austria by Germany. A little later, February 22, 1938, British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain told Parliament that Austria can not rely on the protection of the League of Nations: "We must not deceive, or encourage small weak States, promising them protection from the League of Nations and appropriate action on our part, because we know that nothing like this will be taken. ..."

... so what ? A country's willingness, if indeed it happened, to let Hitler get away with annexation, doesn't change the nature of what happened.

Balu, you seem to think that if a country is willing 'to look the other way' in the face of aggression from another power, this legitimises the action !! Is that how Putin thinks ? Does he have the expectation that 'foreigners' must look the other way when he grabs territories, and that if/when they do, this MAKES IT ALL OK ??

aboutime

06-27-2015, 07:38 PM

"Better to lose with a clever than to find with a fool." - Russian saying.

Or, as our Abe Lincoln would have said about people like you Balu....

“Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.”