Religious "Shower Thoughts"

[darin]

Sometimes I just sorta think about things...I ask questions...


Do you suppose if Jesus knew his words would be remembered and written years after the fact, and then codified into a bible some people die for, maybe he would have been a little more clear on a few key issues? I mean, if I thought my words would later fuel all kindsa beliefs I like to think I'd choose them pretty carefully.

Then another thought - if the Bible's account of Christ's life is wrong - or if the bible didn't exist in the first place - would it matter in terms of God, Love, and all that? Could it be early christians - who didn't have a bible, but used copies of texts they considered holy - really wanted the bible to give their beliefs credibility? It'd be like this - "Hey! I believe women should never leave the kitchen! And...AND...LOOK! It's also written within the pages of this NEAT BOOK me and others put-together."

I'm not saying the Bible is worthless nor am I saying it's wrong, bad, inaccurate and all that - I guess I'm asking if people are WAY too focused on following what they read that they miss the entire point of it all - LOVE God...LOVE people.

And there's that word...LOVE? Among other examples of Love: I contend it's more-loving to help people overcome their obsticles rather than empower them to remain in their misery. Often that hurts their feelings, but it's more loving to help folks with emotional problems than to simply encourage them to remain slightly or majorly broken. So - when Liberals who claim christianity say things like "It's LOVING to encourage folks to marry others of their gender!" I say it's probably not loving - it's LAZY. Lazy to the point you wouldn't help a loved on seek therapy to understand their feelings vs. 'just go with it'.

[Jeff]

I don't believe even God could of seen the fact that someday the US would thumb their noses at the sky's and say gay sex is OK, as I have said all along it isn't natural, I know they are born that way, they can't help who they fall in love with, yup I seen on TV just last night a pedophile saying the same thing, nope I don't think no matter how hard Jesus had thought, he never would of believed we would stoop so low.

I love the title of this thread though dmp, I do the same thing, taking a shower is quiet time and my mind comes with all kind of questions, same as when I am riding on a old country road with no traffic, sometimes I wish I would of written the questions down , cause it's is always a week or so later I remember it for a split second.
:laugh2:

[tailfins]

I don't believe even God could of seen the fact that someday the US would thumb their noses at the sky's and say gay sex is OK, as I have said all along it isn't natural, I know they are born that way, they can't help who they fall in love with, yup I seen on TV just last night a pedophile saying the same thing, nope I don't think no matter how hard Jesus had thought, he never would of believed we would stoop so low.

Being born that way is called temptation. When they act upon it, it's called sin.

[fj1200]

Sometimes I just sorta think about things...I ask questions...


Do you suppose if Jesus knew his words would be remembered and written years after the fact, and then codified into a bible some people die for, maybe he would have been a little more clear on a few key issues? I mean, if I thought my words would later fuel all kindsa beliefs I like to think I'd choose them pretty carefully.

Are you referring to the Son of God? The Alpha and the Omega? The omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent One? With that premise then yes, he knew/knows. There is no accounting for the free will of man though.

And also considering that we debate the meaning of what people say when we have them on video... in this day and age... then there would be no way for Jesus to avoid the inevitable.


... nope I don't think no matter how hard Jesus had thought, he never would of believed we would stoop so low.

Your example aside, I'm pretty sure he is aware of the depravity that exists.

[darin]

Are you referring to the Son of God? The Alpha and the Omega? The omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent One? With that premise then yes, he knew/knows.

Yes...The same man who had to learn to tie his shoes. Had to learn hygiene and his native language and who didn't know the very day before if he would indeed be sacrificed/sent to the cross. Yes.


There is no accounting for the free will of man though.

Disagree. God must know Man's free-will choice because from God's perspective it's already happened where God is - outside of the contraints of linear time. :)

[Noir]

If jesus was sent by an omniscient god, then that god was well aware of exactly what would be said, how it would be interpreted, and so on. This god was apparently fine with it.

[darin]

If jesus was sent by an omniscient god, then that god was well aware of exactly what would be said, how it would be interpreted, and so on. This god was apparently fine with it.

And do we think that makes God a little disappointed? Can that even happen? And if God is okay with things being all fucked up context-wise, it begs - does it even MATTER - when 'it' = the specific recorded/remembered words of Christ in conjunction with the Church's definitions of 'salvation'?

[gabosaurus]

You think about religion in the shower?
Hmmm... I usually think about David Beckham. :cool:

http://ris.fashion.telegraph.co.uk/RichImageService.svc/imagecontent/1/TMG10490547/m/DB_4_2732588a.jpg

[jimnyc]

Darin, love the new avatar, you rock!! You should make an "app" where others can do the same. :)

[darin]

Thank you jim! I'm happy to make one for anyone who wants it :)

[Gunny]

Sometimes I just sorta think about things...I ask questions...


Do you suppose if Jesus knew his words would be remembered and written years after the fact, and then codified into a bible some people die for, maybe he would have been a little more clear on a few key issues? I mean, if I thought my words would later fuel all kindsa beliefs I like to think I'd choose them pretty carefully.

Then another thought - if the Bible's account of Christ's life is wrong - or if the bible didn't exist in the first place - would it matter in terms of God, Love, and all that? Could it be early christians - who didn't have a bible, but used copies of texts they considered holy - really wanted the bible to give their beliefs credibility? It'd be like this - "Hey! I believe women should never leave the kitchen! And...AND...LOOK! It's also written within the pages of this NEAT BOOK me and others put-together."

I'm not saying the Bible is worthless nor am I saying it's wrong, bad, inaccurate and all that - I guess I'm asking if people are WAY too focused on following what they read that they miss the entire point of it all - LOVE God...LOVE people.

And there's that word...LOVE? Among other examples of Love: I contend it's more-loving to help people overcome their obsticles rather than empower them to remain in their misery. Often that hurts their feelings, but it's more loving to help folks with emotional problems than to simply encourage them to remain slightly or majorly broken. So - when Liberals who claim christianity say things like "It's LOVING to encourage folks to marry others of their gender!" I say it's probably not loving - it's LAZY. Lazy to the point you wouldn't help a loved on seek therapy to understand their feelings vs. 'just go with it'.

No kidding. (Got to spread it around a tad)

[Gunny]

Are you referring to the Son of God? The Alpha and the Omega? The omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent One? With that premise then yes, he knew/knows. There is no accounting for the free will of man though.

And also considering that we debate the meaning of what people say when we have them on video... in this day and age... then there would be no way for Jesus to avoid the inevitable.



Your example aside, I'm pretty sure he is aware of the depravity that exists.

Explain THIS:

If God knows the beginning and the end, then how can there be "free will"? Anything with an orchestrated end means "free" is out.

[darin]

Explain THIS:

If God knows the beginning and the end, then how can there be "free will"? Anything with an orchestrated end means "free" is out.

You're confusing knowledge with action.

As an example - I know my kids will grow-up. I do not cause them to grow up. Nothing in my will can prevent it nor cause it.

God knows what's going to happen because to God it's already happened. Everything that creates the future reality MUST have happened. To God, right this second is in the past. His past. And the past cannot change because it's real. The only aspect of a wildcard is when reality creates things out of nothing. For instance -

Say Gunny finds an old chest burried by his great grandfather. Contained in the chest are plans for a time machine - which Gunny builds! Gunny immediately travels back to visit his great grandfather - and gives Great Grand Dad the plans for the time machine....which Grand Dad burries to keep safe...in a chest Gunny eventually finds...which Gunny uses to build the machine in the first place. The "universe" created the plans because the plans had to exist.

So - Because God is already in his reality in the future sense, everything we do or have done we MUST have done in order to make the future reality happen. We have choices and make choices every day, but those choices, once made, are locked-in because they create the future present. :)

[jimnyc]

Thank you jim! I'm happy to make one for anyone who wants it :)

Well, I don't know what it would be good going over the top of. No way my ugly face gets used as an avatar! :laugh:

[Abbey Marie]

Sometimes I just sorta think about things...I ask questions...


Do you suppose if Jesus knew his words would be remembered and written years after the fact, and then codified into a bible some people die for, maybe he would have been a little more clear on a few key issues? I mean, if I thought my words would later fuel all kindsa beliefs I like to think I'd choose them pretty carefully.

Then another thought - if the Bible's account of Christ's life is wrong - or if the bible didn't exist in the first place - would it matter in terms of God, Love, and all that? Could it be early christians - who didn't have a bible, but used copies of texts they considered holy - really wanted the bible to give their beliefs credibility? It'd be like this - "Hey! I believe women should never leave the kitchen! And...AND...LOOK! It's also written within the pages of this NEAT BOOK me and others put-together."

I'm not saying the Bible is worthless nor am I saying it's wrong, bad, inaccurate and all that - I guess I'm asking if people are WAY too focused on following what they read that they miss the entire point of it all - LOVE God...LOVE people.

And there's that word...LOVE? Among other examples of Love: I contend it's more-loving to help people overcome their obsticles rather than empower them to remain in their misery. Often that hurts their feelings, but it's more loving to help folks with emotional problems than to simply encourage them to remain slightly or majorly broken. So - when Liberals who claim christianity say things like "It's LOVING to encourage folks to marry others of their gender!" I say it's probably not loving - it's LAZY. Lazy to the point you wouldn't help a loved on seek therapy to understand their feelings vs. 'just go with it'.

Jesus told us those are the two single most important things. And because it is in the Bible, we all get to know that He said it, and how strongly He meant it in relation to all the other things He said. I think that's your answer to its importance right there.

[fj1200]

Yes...The same man who had to learn to tie his shoes. Had to learn hygiene and his native language and who didn't know the very day before if he would indeed be sacrificed/sent to the cross. Yes.

I'm pretty sure he did know. Nevertheless:


13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him.14 John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15 But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented. 16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; [B]17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son,[c (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%203&version=ESV#fen-ESV-23210c)] with whom I am well pleased.”


Disagree. God must know Man's free-will choice because from God's perspective it's already happened where God is - outside of the contraints of linear time. :)

:confused: Didn't you just post this?


So - Because God is already in his reality in the future sense, everything we do or have done we MUST have done in order to make the future reality happen. We have choices and make choices every day, but those choices, once made, are locked-in because they create the future present.

The free will of man is a function of linear time as the future builds on the past and present.


Explain THIS:

If God knows the beginning and the end, then how can there be "free will"? Anything with an orchestrated end means "free" is out.

Knowing something is not the same as causing something.

[darin]

I'm pretty sure he did know. Nevertheless:



If he knew, he wouldn't have asked God to remove the burden from him. "Please God, don't make me do this.."

(shrug)




:confused: Didn't you just post this?



The free will of man is a function of linear time as the future builds on the past and present.

What's the confusion? We make choices - god knows the choices in part because he's already "There" in the future reality where our choices built the path to end up to where he is in the future.

[fj1200]

If he knew, he wouldn't have asked God to remove the burden from him. "Please God, don't make me do this.."

(shrug)

If he knew, he would ask God to remove the burden. "Please God..."

:dunno:


What's the confusion? We make choices - god knows the choices in part because he's already "There" in the future reality where our choices built the path to end up to where he is in the future.

I'm not confused except that you're making both arguments. We make choices in a linear timeline. That God knows does not change that we "have choices and make choices every day." :)

[darin]

If he knew, he would ask God to remove the burden. "Please God..."

:dunno:


Right. It's not cut and dry.


I'm not confused except that you're making both arguments. We make choices in a linear timeline. That God knows does not change that we "have choices and make choices every day." :)

No, I'm making one argument. We face choices every day. And those choices line up in a way to make the future-now a reality.

[fj1200]

^I'm not sure where we're disagreeing then.

[Jeff]

My original response was sarcasm because this country has gone to the dogs, of course God knew and knows exactly where we are going and how bad it will get, it is explained in the bible how bad things will get at the end of time.

Now no I am not saying tomorrow the world is gone, God gave no time, but he did say how messed up the world would be as it got here.