Could God have stopped 9/11/01 ?

[tailfins]

If you answered in the affirmative, why do you believe God chose not to stop it?

[Drummond]

If you answered in the affirmative, why do you believe God chose not to stop it?

My immediate thought is .. well, maybe the War on Terror, caused by Islamists, as the product of their 9/11 attacks, was something God thought was a just action ? Something the world needed ?

If that's true .. what does it say for Obama, since he's backed off of continuing with it ?

[DragonStryk72]

If you answered in the affirmative, why do you believe God chose not to stop it?

Well, let's talk about that. If God stops the death of 3,000 people, how can more people than that ever die? If it's less, then why don't they matter?

Death is a part of life, and always has been. Even in the Bible, from pillar to post, God allows the free will of people to stand. He has never breached free will in the entire history of the universe, so why this one incident?

Free will is a fundamental point of humanity. To remove free will is to remove what makes us human.

The simple fact is, 9/11 was a human choice, a summation of multiple acts of free will. It wasn't enough to wipe us out, it was enough to hurt us a bit.

But then, this is just another weak anti-christian thread. I mean, come on, can't we just let it die? I mean seriously, the only people persecuting other beliefs on here seem to be the atheists, with the exception of Noir, who only discusses it when pulled into it by someone else.

I just find the irony of the number of zealotous atheists we get.

[tailfins]

Well, let's talk about that. If God stops the death of 3,000 people, how can more people than that ever die? If it's less, then why don't they matter?

Death is a part of life, and always has been. Even in the Bible, from pillar to post, God allows the free will of people to stand. He has never breached free will in the entire history of the universe, so why this one incident?

Free will is a fundamental point of humanity. To remove free will is to remove what makes us human.

The simple fact is, 9/11 was a human choice, a summation of multiple acts of free will. It wasn't enough to wipe us out, it was enough to hurt us a bit.

But then, this is just another weak anti-christian thread. I mean, come on, can't we just let it die? I mean seriously, the only people persecuting other beliefs on here seem to be the atheists, with the exception of Noir, who only discusses it when pulled into it by someone else.

I just find the irony of the number of zealotous atheists we get.

:confused: I have never been referred to as an Atheist. You're talking to the resident militant Protestant. My belief is that was the terrorist threat was always there, it's just that God said "OK" when we as a nation said we don't need his help.

[DragonStryk72]

:confused: I have never been referred to as an Atheist. You're talking to the resident militant Protestant. My belief is that was the terrorist threat was always there, it's just that God said "OK" when we as a nation said we don't need his help.

Well we don't, and more importantly, there are significant lessons we need to learn from all this. A lot of this goes back to the 70s and 80s, with AQ and Saddam. We unwittingly created monsters while we were so busy trying to beat the Russians, and didn't pay attention to these little terror groups that had sprung up, or how tyrannical the regime had become in Iraq. We never really acknowledged them as a real threat, until they showed us they could be a threat.

[revelarts]

If you answered in the affirmative, why do you believe God chose not to stop it?
Yes.
And I'm sure i don't why God allowed it.
But in the end He will work it out to the greatest good for those that love him and his greatest glory.

but your question and reply makes me think of this quotes.
"Don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine messianic force-to-be, a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with judgment, and it seems that I can hear God saying to America, YOU ARE TOO ARROGANT! If you don't change your ways, I will rise up and break the backbone of your power, and I'll place it in the hands of a NATION THAT DOESN'T EVEN KNOW MY NAME! Be still and know that I AM GOD."
Martin Luther King

[Gunny]

Yes.
And I'm sure i don't why God allowed it.
But in the end He will work it out to the greatest good for those that love him and his greatest glory.

but your question and reply makes me think of this quotes.
"Don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine messianic force-to-be, a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with judgment, and it seems that I can hear God saying to America, YOU ARE TOO ARROGANT! If you don't change your ways, I will rise up and break the backbone of your power, and I'll place it in the hands of a NATION THAT DOESN'T EVEN KNOW MY NAME! Be still and know that I AM GOD."
Martin Luther King

Because he lets us choose.

[Drummond]

Well, let's talk about that. If God stops the death of 3,000 people, how can more people than that ever die? If it's less, then why don't they matter?

Death is a part of life, and always has been. Even in the Bible, from pillar to post, God allows the free will of people to stand. He has never breached free will in the entire history of the universe, so why this one incident?

Free will is a fundamental point of humanity. To remove free will is to remove what makes us human.

The simple fact is, 9/11 was a human choice, a summation of multiple acts of free will. It wasn't enough to wipe us out, it was enough to hurt us a bit.

But then, this is just another weak anti-christian thread. I mean, come on, can't we just let it die? I mean seriously, the only people persecuting other beliefs on here seem to be the atheists, with the exception of Noir, who only discusses it when pulled into it by someone else.

I just find the irony of the number of zealotous atheists we get.

No. 9/11 was not a human choice. You don't choose to inflict such SUBhumanity, then somehow, in violation of all sanity, earn the name of 'human'.

What happened on 9/11 - the attack, its consequences - came from nothing human. You can't find 'humanity' in what was planned for and inflicted. What you do find is the opposite of humanity in that.

9/11 was evidence of the extent of evil to be found in the Islamic world .. an expression of it. I believe that the War on Terror was a righteous remedy to it.

... a remedy now abandoned by one Barack Hussein Obama.

[Gunny]

No. 9/11 was not a human choice. You don't choose to inflict such SUBhumanity, then somehow, in violation of all sanity, earn the name of 'human'.

What happened on 9/11 - the attack, its consequences - came from nothing human. You can't find 'humanity' in what was planned for and inflicted. What you do find is the opposite of humanity in that.

9/11 was evidence of the extent of evil to be found in the Islamic world .. an expression of it. I believe that the War on Terror was a righteous remedy to it.

... a remedy now abandoned by one Barack Hussein Obama.

Your mincing words, but I get your point. There's nothing about us that's like that shit. The word though is "compassion", not "human". We love our babies and those asshats send them off to die with bombs on their chests. That is however a Western moral code, not an inherent one.

Still makes them bad guys.

[Drummond]

Your mincing words, but I get your point. There's nothing about us that's like that shit. The word though is "compassion", not "human". We love our babies and those asshats send them off to die with bombs on their chests. That is however a Western moral code, not an inherent one.

Still makes them bad guys.

You've provided another example of their total lack of humanity, proving my point even more conclusively. Nothing human does that to its own children.

[DragonStryk72]

No. 9/11 was not a human choice. You don't choose to inflict such SUBhumanity, then somehow, in violation of all sanity, earn the name of 'human'.

What happened on 9/11 - the attack, its consequences - came from nothing human. You can't find 'humanity' in what was planned for and inflicted. What you do find is the opposite of humanity in that.

9/11 was evidence of the extent of evil to be found in the Islamic world .. an expression of it. I believe that the War on Terror was a righteous remedy to it.

... a remedy now abandoned by one Barack Hussein Obama.

No, on all counts.

9/11 was an attack, the only attack they could figure out that would work. Please stop giving them credit and capability they just don't possess. They got off one lucky shot, nothing more. One successful hit in a decade and a half does not make you a threat, especially when you're routinely getting your ass kicked over that time.

You can't fight terror, it's an emotion. You certainly can't do it with bombs and armies. They create fear, not minimize it. We might as well try to fight fires with kerosene and napalm.

9/11 was an attack by a bunch of deeply hateful, and woefully inept, human beings. I wanna be clear here, I almost ended up an only child that day, I'm well aware of the consequences of 9/11, and I lucked out that both my brother and my sister made it out of that. It changes nothing of the facts.

Hatred and murder have been within humanity since Cain and Abel. It's not some new thing that's a mutation of the species. The only thing you can do by assigning their battle some higher brutality, is make them stronger than they are. So stop giving the cowardly backbirths more credit than is due, and please, stop seeking to give them the feeling of strength. They are a bunch of weak cowards hiding in caves, and if they ever pop their heads up, they get blown off.

[aboutime]

If you answered in the affirmative, why do you believe God chose not to stop it?


"The God you obviously do not believe in, and probably hate, would never allow any of us to STOOP to your level. We have no need to appease your need to get attention for the hatred you have. Which also would explain why GOD wouldn't stop someone like you from showing the rest of us...how hatred begets stupidity like yours."

Take that to the bank for asking such questions designed to patronize! (my quote>

[tailfins]

"The God you obviously do not believe in, and probably hate, would never allow any of us to STOOP to your level. We have no need to appease your need to get attention for the hatred you have. Which also would explain why GOD wouldn't stop someone like you from showing the rest of us...how hatred begets stupidity like yours."

Take that to the bank for asking such questions designed to patronize! (my quote>

It's a bonafide theological question. It's a pity that intellectual exercises upset you. I still say that evangelism is an effective weapon against Islam.

[revelarts]

...I still say that evangelism is an effective weapon against Islam.
absolutely agree

[gabosaurus]

You people questioning the intentions of God. Might not go over too well one day. :death:

[tailfins]

You people questioning the intentions of God. Might not go over too well one day. :death:

If you read Proverbs, you'll see God wants us to seek wisdom and seek out his will.

[Gunny]

You've provided another example of their total lack of humanity, proving my point even more conclusively. Nothing human does that to its own children.

If you're holding your breath waiting on me to disagree with you I got one suggestion: exhale. I can't stand Arabs and I don't like being around them. They stink for one thing. They are their worst enemy because you can smell that crap a mile away. In all fairness, I've been told the same about us by Japanese. You are what you eat.

And I don't trust a damned one of them. And I can give you a good parallel -- ask namvet what he thinks about gooks. Bet he doesn't turn his back on a single one of them. My dad can't even stand being in the same geographical location as one of those silly little slopes.

What you have here is a clash of cultures. When cultures clash, the evil always wins. Look what we did to Native Americans. The part none of the apologistas explains is those so called native Americans wiped an entire race of indigenous people that were here before they were. The dumbest thing anybody did was give the Coman-tse a freaking horse. They went from starving to death living in the Eastern Rockies to controlling most of the Plains.

In the meantime, history repeats itself because nobody learns anything except how to play war on a video game. Chamberlain already did what Obama's doing. One can only hope Obama's so-called "legacy" is the same ... what do we all remember Chamberlain for? "Peace in out time" waving a piece of paper signed by Neville and Adolph. Hitler thought he was a joke just the same as Obama is getting his butt played.

So this all begs a couple of simple questions. How the Hell do you jam an AK-47? You can drop that thing in a pit of mud and it'll still spit bullets. I'm thinking inept terrorist. You can't operate a rifle that is the most reliable weapon in the world and (no offense) but you get your ass kicked and hogtied by an Airman and a National Guardsman? And a doctor, no less. I'd be feeling really wimpy about this point in time.

Regardless, that Airman manned up. THAT is what we need to do if we want to win. Instead of listening to all these excuse makers trying to quantify what "is" is. If you don't want to fight, get the Hell out of the way and shut the fuck up.

[Drummond]

If you're holding your breath waiting on me to disagree with you I got one suggestion: exhale. I can't stand Arabs and I don't like being around them. They stink for one thing. They are their worst enemy because you can smell that crap a mile away. In all fairness, I've been told the same about us by Japanese. You are what you eat.

And I don't trust a damned one of them. And I can give you a good parallel -- ask namvet what he thinks about gooks. Bet he doesn't turn his back on a single one of them. My dad can't even stand being in the same geographical location as one of those silly little slopes.

What you have here is a clash of cultures. When cultures clash, the evil always wins. Look what we did to Native Americans. The part none of the apologistas explains is those so called native Americans wiped an entire race of indigenous people that were here before they were. The dumbest thing anybody did was give the Coman-tse a freaking horse. They went from starving to death living in the Eastern Rockies to controlling most of the Plains.

In the meantime, history repeats itself because nobody learns anything except how to play war on a video game. Chamberlain already did what Obama's doing. One can only hope Obama's so-called "legacy" is the same ... what do we all remember Chamberlain for? "Peace in out time" waving a piece of paper signed by Neville and Adolph. Hitler thought he was a joke just the same as Obama is getting his butt played.

So this all begs a couple of simple questions. How the Hell do you jam an AK-47? You can drop that thing in a pit of mud and it'll still spit bullets. I'm thinking inept terrorist. You can't operate a rifle that is the most reliable weapon in the world and (no offense) but you get your ass kicked and hogtied by an Airman and a National Guardsman? And a doctor, no less. I'd be feeling really wimpy about this point in time.

Regardless, that Airman manned up. THAT is what we need to do if we want to win. Instead of listening to all these excuse makers trying to quantify what "is" is. If you don't want to fight, get the Hell out of the way and shut the fuck up.:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[Drummond]

No, on all counts.

9/11 was an attack, the only attack they could figure out that would work. Please stop giving them credit and capability they just don't possess. They got off one lucky shot, nothing more. One successful hit in a decade and a half does not make you a threat, especially when you're routinely getting your ass kicked over that time.

You can't fight terror, it's an emotion. You certainly can't do it with bombs and armies. They create fear, not minimize it. We might as well try to fight fires with kerosene and napalm.

9/11 was an attack by a bunch of deeply hateful, and woefully inept, human beings. I wanna be clear here, I almost ended up an only child that day, I'm well aware of the consequences of 9/11, and I lucked out that both my brother and my sister made it out of that. It changes nothing of the facts.

Hatred and murder have been within humanity since Cain and Abel. It's not some new thing that's a mutation of the species. The only thing you can do by assigning their battle some higher brutality, is make them stronger than they are. So stop giving the cowardly backbirths more credit than is due, and please, stop seeking to give them the feeling of strength. They are a bunch of weak cowards hiding in caves, and if they ever pop their heads up, they get blown off.

DragonStryk, I note what you've said about almost ending up as an only child on 11th September 2001. For that reason, I find your argument all the more unfathomable.

Subhumanity has meaning. It's something we can all understand as a concept. True, proper human beings cannot relate to, or identify, with it, because it's the opposite of being human.

I cannot relate to terrorists for precisely that reason. What they did on 9/11 had no 'humanity' about it .. in fact, I challenge you to prove otherwise. Humans have their dark side. We are capable of great evil, if or when provoked to it. BUT, we have a compensatory good side, too. We are capable of such a thing as regret, remorse, guilt, when we do bad things.

What the Islamic terrorists did that day was pure evil. It was planned for, obviously for a considerable time beforehand. Then the day arrived, and those acts of murder and savagery were perpetrated. There's no reason whatever to suppose that counterbalancing 'humanity' played a part in the terrorists' 'thought processes' that day - all they cared about was murdering and maiming to the maximum extent. What's more, their targets were innocent people, with whom they had NO quarrel at all. Those people had no thought in mind to do THEM any harm. The attack was unprovoked, 'unnecessary', unsupportable by any human justification I can so much as imagine. BUT IT NONETHELESS HAPPENED.

And what about afterwards ? What 'regret' has ever been expressed for the suffering, death and destruction of that day ? Not only has there been none at all, but the scum responsible has exulted in it. After the news came through, there were reports of 'dancing in the streets' ... WEREN'T THERE, DragonStryk ?

So, no. Any suggestion of 'human' thought, feeling or behaviour being in any way involved, is 100% wrong. The scum responsible weren't human by any measure I can suggest, or justify. There is no sign whatever of any trace of anything 'human' in the scum you want to see that way.

I also suggest that you're showing unwarranted complacency for the future. 9/11, you seem to think, was a 'one off'. I don't understand that at all. You've no way at all of concluding that further such attacks, or even worse than that, won't be planned for and enacted. There have been various planned-for attacks between 2001 and now, but these have been intercepted, and the scum dealt with. And, though it wasn't on the scale of 9/11, I remind you that London had its own '7/7' .. with coordinated attacks launched at strategically-spaced points of the London Underground, with a death toll of 56 and maimings of hundreds more people.

We also have a thread on this forum, now a very long-running one, listing hundreds (and far more) of terrorist attacks, many reaching levels of barbarity again defying your 'human' tag.

Finally .. what if terrorists get WMD's ? What if they can deploy one in a city ? You cannot possibly tell me, credibly, that it won't happen. It was said that a captured computer of Osama bin Laden's showed that he had an interest in acquiring them.

No, DragonStryk, you need to wake up and smell the coffee. Islamic terrorism is planned for and perpetrated by a subhuman enemy. It is a scourge which requires much pest extermination. Nothing less, in my view, than a new and remorselessly waged War on Terror will do.

[Noir]

Epicurus beat you to this one by a couple of hundred years -



God either wants to eliminate bad things and cannot,
or can but does not want to,
or neither wishes to nor can,
or both wants to and can.

The permetations of each possibility aren't exactly inspiring.

[revelarts]

Epicurus beat you to this one by a couple of hundred years -

The permetations of each possibility aren't exactly inspiring.


-Job’s Reaction.
Then Job arose and tore his cloak and cut off his hair.
He fell to the ground and worshiped.
He said, “Naked I came forth from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I go back there.
The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord!”
In all this Job did not sin, nor did he charge God with wrong.

Job 1:20-22

[Drummond]

.... by Epicurus ....

God either wants to eliminate bad things and cannot,
or can but does not want to,
or neither wishes to nor can,
or both wants to and can.

Wow. Thanks, Noir. I really needed to know that. How enormously instructive .....:rolleyes:

[Gunny]

Epicurus beat you to this one by a couple of hundred years -




The permetations of each possibility aren't exactly inspiring.

Let me fix this for you. God gives us the power of choice, and the tools to stop the crap. Try using them instead of blaming Him for your screwups.

[Noir]

Wow. Thanks, Noir. I really needed to know that. How enormously instructive .....:rolleyes:

You're welcome, which of the statements do you believe to be true?


Let me fix this for you. God gives us the power of choice, and the tools to stop the crap. Try using them instead of blaming Him for your screwups.

It wouldn't appear that it has, but if indeed it has done so, then what we can chose is more often a result of factors beyond our control, in what sense any of us chose something is a very interesting conversation (however, i would predict your reply will be none so interesting, as you will take this to mean 'terrorists aren't responsible for their actions' or some other nonsense.)

[Gunny]

You're welcome, which of the statements do you believe to be true?



It wouldn't appear that it has, but if indeed it has done so, then what we can chose is more often a result of factors beyond our control, in what sense any of us chose something is a very interesting conversation (however, i would predict your reply will be none so interesting, as you will take this to mean 'terrorists aren't responsible for their actions' or some other nonsense.)

So let's see ... you go read Leviticus 17 and 21 and tell me how your wish for God's interference is going to work for you.

I predict you need to go back to bed because you've just got hammered not knowing what you're talking about 2 posts in a row.

[Drummond]

You're welcome, which of the statements do you believe to be true?

Taken as a whole, it's a statement of the bleedin' obvious, Noir.

Other than that, I think that Gunny has answered you. We have free choice, and we exercise it. I say this: where, or how, or if, God intervenes, or chooses to, is diversionary from the reality of our culpability for our actions.

[Noir]

Taken as a whole, it's a statement of the bleedin' obvious, Noir.

You need to state the obvious to discern the specific.
But you coy away form a specific answer.

You have 4 options
-Wants to and cannot,
-Can but does not want to,
-Neither wants to nor can,
-Both wants to and can.


Other than that, I think that Gunny has answered you. We have free choice, and we exercise it.

I'll leave free choice/will for another thread, lets stick with the god side of the discussion, before delving into our human side.

[fj1200]

Subhumanity has meaning.

Only a meaning that you've given it.

[Gunny]

You need to state the obvious to discern the specific.
But you coy away form a specific answer.

You have 4 options
-Wants to and cannot,
-Can but does not want to,
-Neither wants to nor can,
-Both wants to and can.



I'll leave free choice/will for another thread, lets stick with the god side of the discussion, before delving into our human side.

He DID state the obvious. The fact is, you must be a Clinton. Trying to play word games with people that can read right through your bullshit.

Here's an option for you: God grants us free will to choose. If He's the imnipotent being YOU are so afraid of, why should he interfere? We get told straight up, we make our choices and for our choices we will pay.

The problem with people like you is you don't believe there's a reckoning in the end and I'll point out one simple little fact for you ... if I'm wrong I won't know it. If YOU are wrong, you'll know it every day for eternity.

[Drummond]

You need to state the obvious to discern the specific.
But you coy away form a specific answer.

You have 4 options
-Wants to and cannot,
-Can but does not want to,
-Neither wants to nor can,
-Both wants to and can.



But the point about our having free will, and our having been granted it, already answers you, Noir.

[Drummond]

Only a meaning that you've given it.

Ah, the ol' pedantry ploy, rather than the transparency involved in the offering of an actual thought process. How very like you, FJ.

OK, try this. What is YOUR meaning of 'subhumanity' .. and if you think terrorists don't qualify for that term, tell us, how is it that they, and their actions, fail to ?

[Think of this as an opportunity to Leftily defend the worth of terrorists, FJ ....]

[Truth Detector]

If you answered in the affirmative, why do you believe God chose not to stop it?

Why do you think God had anything to do with it would be a better question?

[Noir]

But the point about our having free will, and our having been granted it, already answers you, Noir.

Why so desperate to coy away from a straight answer,
You are welcome to state that you're not sure of the answer if that is the case, but implying you have an answer and shying away from stating it, in favour of a more cryptic response, is poor form.

[Drummond]

Why so desperate to coy away from a straight answer,
You are welcome to state that you're not sure of the answer if that is the case, but implying you have an answer and shying away from stating it, in favour of a more cryptic response, is poor form.

Are you not comprehending this point, or is it YOU who's being coy about its conclusion ?

If we're given free will by God, then we are. What God does is immaterial to the issue, because if God intervened, then free will would be compromised, or, go out the window entirely.

BUT .. to comprehend that God has given us free will, logically says that God could have chosen not to (otherwise, how does choice factor into any of this ?). This therefore says that a scenario was possible in which no such free will would exist.

The understanding that such a scenario could have existed means that it would've consisted of something. WHAT ?

The answer to 'WHAT' also answers you.

So you see, you've already been answered. It is you who's being coy in the understanding of it.

[Gunny]

Are you not comprehending this point, or is it YOU who's being coy about its conclusion ?

If we're given free will by God, then we are. What God does is immaterial to the issue, because if God intervened, then free will would be compromised, or, go out the window entirely.

BUT .. to comprehend that God has given us free will, logically says that God could have chosen not to (otherwise, how does choice factor into any of this ?). This therefore says that a scenario was possible in which no such free will would exist.

The understanding that such a scenario could have existed means that it would've consisted of something. WHAT ?

The answer to 'WHAT' also answers you.

So you see, you've already been answered. It is you who's being coy in the understanding of it.

SO my question to you is ... why are you arguing about the obvious? Noir, and all the other leftwingers are Nazis. They believe what they want because it suits them. A believe in God means you don't get to be a fag. So I don't even know why they want to be married in a church except it's blasphemy and suits their purpose. There is no other real reason.

They question God because they simply don't agree with a higher authority than themselves. A truth I've noticed about leftwingnuts. They believe in scientific junk that has less credibility than the Bible, and they think THEY are the higher authority.

They like to talk out of one side of their mouthes that we aren't alone in the universe and the other side claims they're supreme.

[Noir]

...

The human side of this coin (taking in to account free will, choice etc.) is a different discussion to the one i am presenting, and asking you about (though it does follow on naturally from this discussion).

What is currently happening-
Noir: What is 2+2=?
Drummond: Look 3+3=6
Noir: That wasn't what I asked, what is 2+2=?
Drummond: I already answered your question.

The options are (in your words) obvious, to try and add some spice to the convo I thought i'd throw in a table ^,^


<tbody>
Empty space don't look here.
Can
Cannot


Wants to
A
B


Does not want to
C
D

</tbody>

So are we going A, B, C, or D?
and please try and remember 'god gave us free will and...' is not a letter.

[Drummond]

SO my question to you is ... why are you arguing about the obvious?

Damned if I know, Gunny. OK, so there's a certain amusement value in showing Leftie rot up for what it is. That said, it's an exercise in futility.


Noir, and all the other leftwingers are Nazis. They believe what they want because it suits them. A believe in God means you don't get to be a fag. So I don't even know why they want to be married in a church except it's blasphemy and suits their purpose. There is no other real reason.

They question God because they simply don't agree with a higher authority than themselves. A truth I've noticed about leftwingnuts. They believe in scientific junk that has less credibility than the Bible, and they think THEY are the higher authority.

They like to talk out of one side of their mouthes that we aren't alone in the universe and the other side claims they're supreme.

Point well made. The Left want to replace God in peoples' minds, because their ideal is to be the highest authority anyone can perceive. Anyone believing in a God violates that, in their eyes. Their pro-secularist agenda exists for just that reason.

I don't know if they think they are 'the higher authority' .. I don't think, in truth, they care, one way or the other. All they really care about is making sure that everyone ELSE thinks they are. To the Left, power, and the exercising of it against people, is all that matters.

[Noir]

Noir, and all the other leftwingers are Nazis.

Seems like a totally reasonable statement.

[Drummond]

The human side of this coin (taking in to account free will, choice etc.) is a different discussion to the one i am presenting, and asking you about (though it does follow on naturally from this discussion).

What is currently happening-
Noir: What is 2+2=?
Drummond: Look 3+3=6
Noir: That wasn't what I asked, what is 2+2=?
Drummond: I already answered your question.

The options are (in your words) obvious, to try and add some spice to the convo I thought i'd throw in a table ^,^


<tbody>
Empty space don't look here.
Can
Cannot


Wants to
A
B


Does not want to
C
D

</tbody>

So are we going A, B, C, or D?
and please try and remember 'god gave us free will and...' is not a letter.

So you're dealing with something purely hypothetical, rather than what's really true ?

If God has given us free will, then my previous argument applies, and this diverts from it. Unless you want to discuss what theoretically COULD be ... which, given the terms of your question, is a totally meaningless exercise.

[Gunny]

Damned if I know, Gunny. OK, so there's a certain amusement value in showing Leftie rot up for what it is. That said, it's an exercise in futility.



Point well made. The Left want to replace God in peoples' minds, because their ideal is to be the highest authority anyone can perceive. Anyone believing in a God violates that, in their eyes. Their pro-secularist agenda exists for just that reason.

I don't know if they think they are 'the higher authority' .. I don't think, in truth, they care, one way or the other. All they really care about is making sure that everyone ELSE thinks they are. To the Left, power, and the exercising of it against people, is all that matters.

Okay, I get the amusement value.:laugh:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu2ArBfwZcA

Poor people get bored too. Maybe if we elitist leftwingers we could spend our time telling others what to think.

[Drummond]

Seems like a totally reasonable statement.

REALLY ? That's quite an admission, there, Noir.

Care to post a pic of yourself in jackboots, looking with reverence at a portrait of Hitler ??

[Drummond]

Okay, I get the amusement value.:laugh:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu2ArBfwZcA

Poor people get bored too. Maybe if we elitist leftwingers we could spend our time telling others what to think.

I'd say that clip offers a pretty good illustration ...

Leftwingers do it all the time. In fact, if they didn't, they'd lose the will to live. Life would be without meaning for them.

PC dictatorship exists for a reason.

[Noir]

REALLY ? That's quite an admission, there, Noir.

Care to post a pic of yourself in jackboots, looking with reverence at a portrait of Hitler ??

'fraid i don't own any boots or such a portrait, however, I have been known to associate with some contemptuous types; racists, people who view other people as "inferiors", and they're none too polite about queer people either.
Does that count?

[Drummond]

'fraid i don't own any boots or such a portrait,

Sorry to hear it.


however, I have been known to associate with some contemptuous types; racists, people who view other people as "inferiors", and they're none too polite about queer people either.
Does that count?

Oh, you mean Lefties who express themselves honestly ?

Well, perhaps so, Noir.

Talking of racists, and American history .. do you know that Abraham Lincoln was taking the stands he was, at least a good generation before a certain Woodrow Wilson (Leftie git) appeared on the scene, complete with his segregationist policies ?

I've no idea whether Hitler found him to be someone to admire. I wouldn't be surprised, though ......

[Gunny]

'fraid i don't own any boots or such a portrait, however, I have been known to associate with some contemptuous types; racists, people who view other people as "inferiors", and they're none too polite about queer people either.
Does that count?

Did you miss looking in the mirror. You are contemptuous of others. You just think you're smarter than us and we can't read your passive aggressive crap.

[Noir]

Did you miss looking in the mirror. You are contemptuous of others. You just think you're smarter than us and we can't read your passive aggressive crap.

:salute:

I fear this topic is derailed enough, and the epicurean questions goes on unanswered, i'll leave the thread for others to discuss the OP.

[fj1200]

Ah, the ol' pedantry ploy, rather than the transparency involved in the offering of an actual thought process. How very like you, FJ.

OK, try this. What is YOUR meaning of 'subhumanity' .. and if you think terrorists don't qualify for that term, tell us, how is it that they, and their actions, fail to ?

[Think of this as an opportunity to Leftily defend the worth of terrorists, FJ ....]

Umm, I haven't created a false position in order to justify another. You deny the fact that everyone is human so you can justify the state's denial of rights via torture and unjust capital punishment.

And terrorists suck, no doubt about it but you don't have to create your disgusting positions and lack of logic to beat them. I don't defend terrorists, I defend truth. You should try arguing logically rather than emotionally.

[Drummond]

:salute:

I fear this topic is derailed enough, and the epicurean questions goes on unanswered, i'll leave the thread for others to discuss the OP.

Typical Leftie answer. You know, I've never, even once, known a Leftie to openly admit that he's been bested .. it's something of a trademark attribute of them. If they have to retreat, they'll try and go in for one-upmanship point-scoring when they do.

[Gunny]

:salute:

I fear this topic is derailed enough, and the epicurean questions goes on unanswered, i'll leave the thread for others to discuss the OP.

Really? Seems like every topic you're involved in is about you. The fact you don't agree because it doesn't suit your lifestyle doesn't mean no one answered it. It just means you ignored the truth.

You can't play English with me even if you're a Brit. I grew up on British books. Try your passive aggressive word games on someone else. I was more skilled at English in the 6th grade than you are NOW, AND I was more skilled at Greek and Spanish.
\
Syntax is my game. It ain't yours unless you think excuses are an argument.

[Drummond]

Umm, I haven't created a false position in order to justify another. You deny the fact that everyone is human ..

Outrageous and illogical. The most subhuman 'human' is still 'human', despite not BEING human ?


... so you can justify the state's denial of rights via torture and unjust capital punishment.

How do I interpret that as anything other than a defence of terrorists ? But interestingly .. it seems you not only want to defend them from torture, but against ever earning a death penalty, too ??


And terrorists suck, no doubt about it but you don't have to create your disgusting positions and lack of logic to beat them.

... but, you obviously DO need to contrive arguments that defend them !!


I don't defend terrorists, I defend truth.

... and, your 'truth' is to fight for terrorist 'human rights' when they're not even HUMAN ??

Nope. Try again.


You should try arguing logically rather than emotionally.

In the past, I've challenged you to prove that terrorists are human. You've yet to succeed.

[fj1200]

Outrageous and illogical.

I see that you're still unable to see past your circular logic.

[Drummond]

I see that you're still unable to see past your circular logic.

And you're still unable to stop running away from arguments you know you cannot win.:rolleyes:

Care to admit you're on to a loser in this ?

No ?

Well, now, what a surprise ...

[Nonnie]

The OP question is based on the assumption that humans are important, but the Bible does not claim this. Also, it just means the OP is trying to shape and claim what God is and should do. These two false assumptions makes the question invalid.

[darin]

Of course he could not have stopped it - it already happened. It had to have happened because it happened. Watch some Through The Wormhole, folks. It's science. Nothing that has happened can be changed. Because its already happened. Its done. In whatever time-perspective God sits, the event happened. Done story. People are Evil, and Liberals empower terrorists. Those are universal truths. God knows it.

[Drummond]

Of course he could not have stopped it - it already happened. It had to have happened because it happened. Watch some Through The Wormhole, folks. It's science. Nothing that has happened can be changed. Because its already happened. Its done. In whatever time-perspective God sits, the event happened. Done story. People are Evil, and Liberals empower terrorists. Those are universal truths. God knows it.

Does God move through time as we do ? If 'yes' ... that suggests that God is as subject to time as we are.

But if God is, surely, outside of time .. since time is a function of the Universe, therefore is a product of it, and yet, to have created the Universe, God must be OUTSIDE of the Universe, as we know it .. then, if God is outside of time, God is not dictated to, by it. Which surely means that anything can be changed at ANY time.

[Perhaps this allows for every scenario possible to be played out in a multiple number of Universes .. an infinite number ?]

However - God gave us free will. Since that's so, it should mean that we're guaranteed non-interference. In which case, God is capable of changing anything that has, or will, happen ... but simply doesn't.

[fj1200]

... you cannot win.

I've won it repeatedly as indicated by 1) you not abiding by your own definition and 2) by you giving up your argument over and over only to resurrect it at the next opportunity. You don't win arguments by whining, stomping your feat, and making demands when someone doesn't just relent to your failed attempts at argument. I win them by logic. :)

This particular thread however is about if God could have stopped 9/11. Of course he could have and he might likely have stopped a hundred other 9/11s but then we just chalk it up to human intervention; taking credit where it is due God.

[Nonnie]

Does God move through time as we do ? If 'yes' ... that suggests that God is as subject to time as we are.

But if God is, surely, outside of time .. since time is a function of the Universe, therefore is a product of it, and yet, to have created the Universe, God must be OUTSIDE of the Universe, as we know it .. then, if God is outside of time, God is not dictated to, by it. Which surely means that anything can be changed at ANY time.

[Perhaps this allows for every scenario possible to be played out in a multiple number of Universes .. an infinite number ?]

However - God gave us free will. Since that's so, it should mean that we're guaranteed non-interference. In which case, God is capable of changing anything that has, or will, happen ... but simply doesn't.

Time is a man made concept, you're trying to define God to match your needs and you're trying to base a logic based system of this universe on someone from outside of this universe. Unfortunately and sorry to say, but your post is purely twaddle.

[Gunny]

Let's go the oppsote direction ... had God interfered, where would our free will be?

[Jeff]

Let's go the oppsote direction ... had God interfered, where would our free will be?

I have to agree, lets face it this thread well it just doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If you are a atheist ( which we know there are some ) no God couldn't, Muslim no God Couldn't, if you are a Christian then yes he could of, Heck my belief is God created all and can do all, but God isn't going to save us from ourselves, he gave us the brains we have to survive, what we do with the smarts he gave us, well that is up to us, and that is just my opinion as a Christian, as I have already pointed out, some will snicker at my opinion because it is different then there's.

[gabosaurus]

God allows senseless murders to happen every day. God is all seeing and all knowing.
The 9-11 attacks are nowhere near the top level of senseless atrocities inflicted by man upon his fellow man. God allows our lives to proceed as dictated by His eternal plan.

[Drummond]

Time is a man made concept, you're trying to define God to match your needs and you're trying to base a logic based system of this universe on someone from outside of this universe. Unfortunately and sorry to say, but your post is purely twaddle.

Our measurement of time is man made, yes. Time itself is not.

You say my post was pure twaddle. In which case, so will this post be, as well. So, a simple challenge -- PROVE it's twaddle.

Everything that happens in this Universe could not possibly happen if time did not exist. If you move to type a reply to this, you need time to do it. Just the act of breathing needs time to do it. Your heart needs time to beat from one beat to the next, and so on, and so on. All that exists needs time to exist .. atoms need time to move, to assert their effect of existence. So, sorry to say, it's your assertion that's pure twaddle.

We know that the Universe had a starting-point. We therefore know it was created. But we also know that time and space are properties of our Universe (or are all the scientists wrong on that ?).

For the Universe to be created, whatever created it had to precede it. Therefore, whatever created it had to be outside of it. Being outside of your own creation means you're not subject to it. So, you're not subject to its limitations.

Before you call this 'twaddle' again, try to find fault with my reasoning. Tell me where my logic fails in specific terms. Go on, Nonnie, let's see if you can do it.

[revelarts]

God allows senseless murders to happen every day. God is all seeing and all knowing.
The 9-11 attacks are nowhere near the top level of senseless atrocities inflicted by man upon his fellow man. God allows our lives to proceed as dictated by His eternal plan.
agreed.

[revelarts]

for Noir


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtx5GyP7i7w

[Noir]

for Noir YouTube Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtx5GyP7i7w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtx5GyP7i7w)

Well that put my mind at rest - for the children born into a short a painful life of misery, your god wouldn't have it any other way, ace.

[revelarts]

Well that put my mind at rest - for the children born into a short a painful life of misery, your god wouldn't have it any other way, ace.

then set up for a long eternity of bliss. yes, it's a hard exchange and not one we'd ask for. We'd love all sweetness and never a pain for anyone but it's not what we have. But we don't see the whole story ...yet.

We're left with a choice here, trust that God might know better than us and does have everyone's best at heart.
Or something horrific, that he doesn't. But that he's only teased nearly everyone with some real personal joys, kindness, laughter, friendships, natural and man made beauty, health and hopes only to snatch it all away.

Or does the real felt and seen goodness in the world give us some idea that God truly might be good even with the harshness we see as well. Could most people's inbuilt sense of justice and compassion tell us something about who created us? Is that sense really a false natural instinct or planted as a tease by an incapable or evil creator?

[Noir]

then set up for a long eternity of bliss.

Or an eternity of torment, because unconditional love is, er, conditional.

[Gunny]

Or an eternity of torment, because unconditional love is, er, conditional.

How're those hallucingens working?

[Black Diamond]

Or an eternity of torment, because unconditional love is, er, conditional.

I know you're smarter than that.

[revelarts]

Or an eternity of torment, because unconditional love is, er, conditional.
well the love is unconditional,
the benefits of the love is conditioned on the acceptance of a gift.

If a father/judge gives all his criminal children a free way out of going to prison but they don't like it or accept it or believe it.
Does that mean the father judge doesn't love them?

But anyway, you mentioned a child with a short hard life.
eternal bliss appears to be the default for them.

[Noir]

well the love is unconditional, the benefits of the love is conditioned on the acceptance of a gift. If a father judge gives all criminal children a free way out of prison but they don't like it or accept it or believe it. Does it mean the father judge doesn't love him? or doesn't want them to be with him in freedom?

Is the father judge going to remove the freedom to make choice from the children at a defined point in the future?


But anyway, you mentioned a child with a short hard life. eternal bliss appears to be the default for them.

"Appears" xD

[revelarts]

Is the father judge going to remove the freedom to make choice from the children at a defined point in the future?

death

[Noir]

death

That was my point.

Its apparently very very important that we have a few short years of choice, because an eternity of non-choice is coming.

as was put by Christopher Hitchens 'Atleast you can fucking die and leave North Korea, does the koran or the bible offer this? No, the utter ownership, the smashing of your individuality only begins at death."

[Drummond]

That was my point.

Its apparently very very important that we have a few short years of choice, because an eternity of non-choice is coming.

as was put by Christopher Hitchens 'Atleast you can fucking die and leave North Korea, does the koran or the bible offer this? No, the utter ownership, the smashing of your individuality only begins at death."

No, Noir - I'm not surprised you'd want to believe that God is a Leftie, but I do not concur.

[Noir]

No, Noir - I'm not surprised you'd want to believe that God is a Leftie, but I do not concur.

Drummond, describe for me the most perfect leftist state you can imagine.

[revelarts]

That was my point.
Its apparently very very important that we have a few short years of choice, because an eternity of non-choice is coming.
as was put by Christopher Hitchens 'Atleast you can fucking die and leave North Korea, does the koran or the bible offer this? No, the utter ownership, the smashing of your individuality only begins at death."

yes, the creator is out to smash your individuality, that's the plan. sure.

Uh here's a semi-private island with everything you've ever dreamed and fulfills all your hopes and even unknown needs, choose this or prison. You have 10 seconds.

Chris B. Itchens "wahhh! why are smashing my individuality, why can't i choose after ten seconds? if you really loved us we you would!! you're just MEAN!! or WEAK!! You should have made it different!!!"

sheesh OK.
if you want to look at that way that's your choice.

[Noir]

yes, the creator is out to smash your individuality, that's the plan. sure.

Uh here's a semi-private island with everything you've ever dreamed and fulfills all your hopes and even unknown needs, choose this or prison. You have 10 seconds.

Chris B. Itchens "wahhh! why are smashing my individuality, why can't i choose after ten seconds? if you really loved us we you would!! you're just MEAN!! or WEAK!! You should have made it different!!!"

sheesh OK.
if you want to look at that way that's your choice.

Okay, lets run with the island example. There are two islands;

Island A - 'Welcome - here's a semi-private island with everything you've ever dreamed and fulfills all your hopes and even unknown needs.

Island B - 'Welcome - here's a semi-private island with everything you've ever dreamed and fulfills all your hopes and even unknown needs, choose this or prison. You have 10 seconds

Which island would you rather find yourself on?

[Gunny]

I have to agree, lets face it this thread well it just doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If you are a atheist ( which we know there are some ) no God couldn't, Muslim no God Couldn't, if you are a Christian then yes he could of, Heck my belief is God created all and can do all, but God isn't going to save us from ourselves, he gave us the brains we have to survive, what we do with the smarts he gave us, well that is up to us, and that is just my opinion as a Christian, as I have already pointed out, some will snicker at my opinion because it is different then there's.

I believe in a supreme being some call "God". But I like Crom more than the God everyone on the left likes to defame. He just sits around and laughs at the stupid shit we pull. But, on an ideological POV, what's God got to prove? He can kick your ass? There's a hard one.

What the left refuses to accept is we may just be an experiment. Let's just see what stupid people do being stupid. Why should He interfere? He's probably got us on cable and watches every night just to see what the dumbasses can come up with next.

[Drummond]

Drummond, describe for me the most perfect leftist state you can imagine.

Don't be ridiculous. The more Leftie it was, the more IMperfect it'd be !!

Left-wing philosophy specialises in defying human nature. That's why, in attempting to apply it, you get corruptions of it creeping in.

The most rigidly-run, therefore altenative-intolerant Leftie State you can imagine, is one run by an oppressive dictatorship. On the one hand, the human desire for power and personal advancement creates, in a Leftie setup, petty dictators. But on the other, in order to overcome personal ambition in all others, said dictator needs to oppress to whatever degree will do the trick.

Sell your individual autonomy to the Great, Almighty State. Destroy all drives to accrue wealth, position, sense-of-self. There are many on the Extreme Left who, whilst never admitting they want all that, positively BURN with a PASSION to see it brought about.

Such 'people' would regard that as 'the most perfect leftist state' that THEY can imagine.

If I were to imagine that (.. as I just have ..) .. I'd be imagining hell.

[Noir]

The most rigidly-run, therefore altenative-intolerant Leftie State you can imagine, is one run by an oppressive dictatorship.

Now you can spend your time compare and contrasting a human dictator, and the godly one you believe in.

[Drummond]

Now you can spend your time compare and contrasting a human dictator, and the godly one you believe in.

God is militaristic ?

God believes in tax hikes ?

God plays at democratic process, then snuffs it out ?

And the last I heard, God didn't want Jews to suffer a Holocaust ....

[Gunny]

Now you can spend your time compare and contrasting a human dictator, and the godly one you believe in.

You just got slammed. Put a soothing ointment on whatever orifice hurts you most.:laugh:

[Abbey Marie]

Okay, lets run with the island example. There are two islands;

Island A - 'Welcome - here's a semi-private island with everything you've ever dreamed and fulfills all your hopes and even unknown needs.

Island B - 'Welcome - here's a semi-private island with everything you've ever dreamed and fulfills all your hopes and even unknown needs, choose this or prison. You have 10 seconds

Which island would you rather find yourself on?

You have described exactly the same island. It therefore makes exactly no difference which one I choose. Only someone trying to find a problem, would see a problem with this choice.

[Noir]

You have described exactly the same island. It therefore makes exactly no difference which one I choose. Only someone trying to find a problem, would see a problem with this choice.

The prison-less island and the Island with prison are far from the same.

[Russ]

If you answered in the affirmative, why do you believe God chose not to stop it?

This is a stupid poll. If you think God is not able to stop 9/11 (or anything else) then you don't really believe in God, and you are posing the poll just to play word games against believers.

What you're really getting at, albeit in what sounds like a scoffing way, is "why does God allow bad things to happen?", which is the great mystery in life, referred to in Revelation. We don't know for sure why God allows bad things. People here have posted some good thoughts about why, but we don't and won't know for sure for a long time.

[Drummond]

This is a stupid poll. If you think God is not able to stop 9/11 (or anything else) then you don't really believe in God, and you are posing the poll just to play word games against believers.

What you're really getting at, albeit in what sounds like a scoffing way, is "why does God allow bad things to happen?", which is the great mystery in life, referred to in Revelation. We don't know for sure why God allows bad things. People here have posted some good thoughts about why, but we don't and won't know for sure for a long time.

Whatever else might be said, free will is relevant. If God didn't allow bad things to happen, free will would go the way of the dodo.

Would a life devoid of free will be worth living ?

[Voted4Reagan]

This is a stupid poll. If you think God is not able to stop 9/11 (or anything else) then you don't really believe in God, and you are posing the poll just to play word games against believers.



Correct Russ.... This is just another TEST that the original poster is taking on the responses given.

The OP has no real interest in any answers... but rather to see how inflammatory the question can become by pitting believers and non believers against each other.

The best thing is to NOT take a side in the poll and to simply declare it to be intellectually dishonest.

It is simply a TEST.... nothing more..... and the OP thinks you are all his personal lab rats.

It is nothing more than that...

[DLT]

This is a stupid poll. If you think God is not able to stop 9/11 (or anything else) then you don't really believe in God, and you are posing the poll just to play word games against believers.

What you're really getting at, albeit in what sounds like a scoffing way, is "why does God allow bad things to happen?", which is the great mystery in life, referred to in Revelation. We don't know for sure why God allows bad things. People here have posted some good thoughts about why, but we don't and won't know for sure for a long time.

I think it's just the opposite of what the leftie non-believers claim. It isn't that God allows bad things to happen. God allows man's free will on earth. If God intervened every time man chose to do evil, man wouldn't have free will. No, God only intervenes via miracles, IMO. God makes good things happen, despite man's evil and sinful nature. Also, this life is just a testing ground. A means to see which souls are worthy of God's love and forgiveness and which ones will never be. So to interfere in that test would be rigging it, which would negate the very reason FOR the test.

That's how I see it (my 2cents).

[Abbey Marie]

The prison-less island and the Island with prison are far from the same.


Hold on now- your example did not say the island had a prison. It said to choose between the island or prison:


Island B - 'Welcome - here's a semi-private island with everything you've ever dreamed and fulfills all your hopes and even unknown needs, choose this or prison. You have 10 seconds

[Drummond]

Hold on now- your example did not say the island had a prison. It said to choose between the island or prison:

Exactly ! My understanding was that if you didn't choose the island, you'd choose to be transported to another location, where the prison was. For as long as you chose the island, you'd be choosing the SAME island.

[fj1200]

... the leftie non-believers ...

You do know that not there are leftie believers don't you?

[revelarts]

Okay, lets run with the island example. There are two islands;

Island A - 'Welcome - here's a semi-private island with everything you've ever dreamed and fulfills all your hopes and even unknown needs.

Island B - 'Welcome - here's a semi-private island with everything you've ever dreamed and fulfills all your hopes and even unknown needs, choose this or prison. You have 10 seconds

Which island would you rather find yourself on?

Island A is not an option.

But I guess for you it'd be OK to have an Island A then right? An Island A where God made it so Hitler, Stalin, the pedophiles and pick pockets would make it on the island "unconditionally" without even an excuse me, or thanks or "God i may have been mistaken'. that's what's you're suggesting it seems.
but that's not the situation we have.

But look noir, it seems no matter which way it's framed atheist have a problem.

if God forgives all sins so all go to heaven atheist complain that God is not just.
if anyone other than Hitler and the like goes to hell atheist complain that God is not really loving.
I suspect if 3 (or 3000) atheist got together to create their IDEAL version of a hypothetical God and the cosmos. They'd never be able to conceive of one that satisfied them all. There would always be some issue (no matter how small) that some atheist would find EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE and use it as an excuse to reject any concept of a good God it seems like.

[Noir]

Island A is not an option. But I guess for you it'd be OK to have an Island A then right? An Island A where God made it so Hitler, Stalin, the pedophiles and pick pockets would make it on the island "unconditionally" without even an excuse me, or thanks or "God i may have been mistaken'. that's what's you're suggesting it seems. but that's not the situation we have.

and you, or at least your god, actively have no problem with pedophiles etc entering the island so long as at some point after raping children they realised they'd done wrong.


But look noir, it seems no matter which way it's framed atheist have a problem. if God forgives all sins so all go to heaven atheist complain that God is not just. if anyone other than Hitler and the like goes to hell atheist complain that God is not really loving. I suspect if 3 (or 3000) atheist got together to create their IDEAL version of a hypothetical God and the cosmos. They'd never be able to conceive of one that satisfied them all. There would always be some issue (no matter how small) that some atheist would find EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE and use it as an excuse to reject any concept of a good God it seems like.

Atheists don't have the problem, rather, atheists can see the problems that a number of the possible 'answers' generate.

I'm sure you've known 'good' people who have passed on that were ether not religious or that did not specifically follow your religion, do you think those people deserve an eternity of torment?

[Gunny]

The prison-less island and the Island with prison are far from the same.

Not really. Guess what the difference between deployment and jail is? Not much. People don't realize that. I solation from the rest of the world is isolation from the rest of the world, no matter how you try and sell it.

[revelarts]

and you, or at least your god, actively have no problem with pedophiles etc entering the island so long as at some point after raping children they realised they'd done wrong.
and turned from the it. and the punishment passed on to Jesus. debt paid.



I'm sure you've known 'good' people who have passed on that were ether not religious or that did not specifically follow your religion, do you think those people deserve an eternity of torment? Personally I'm not very comfortable with eternity in torment for people etheir. It's horrific. But I trust that God as creator has a right and do what wills with his own, that he is just and caring and gives opportunity to heaven to all.
God even says judgment is His "strange work" and PLEADS with people to come to Him.

You seem like a nice person Noir and you have all the information you need to avoid Hell and go to Heaven for eternity but you seem to dismiss the offer. And want to reject the existence the creator outright.



Atheists don't have the problem, rather, atheists can see the problems that a number of the possible 'answers' generate.
As i said NO answer is seems satisfactory. Much less universally agreed on by atheist.
But I and others have honestly given the answers --to the best of our understanding-- on many sometimes difficult questions.
But i've noticed that atheist often don't take the time to fully address questions and the problems they generate about their positions. Or integrate their answers to origins, morals, death and the long term course of the universe into real life.

Atheist answers generate bigger problems than those of the Christian. For the present life and for eternity.

[tailfins]

Not really. Guess what the difference between deployment and jail is? Not much. People don't realize that. I solation from the rest of the world is isolation from the rest of the world, no matter how you try and sell it.

As long as there are supplies, isolation sounds like paradise to me.

[Noir]

and turned from the it. and the punishment passed on to Jesus. debt paid.

Well isn't that nice.


Personally I'm no more comfortable with eternity in torment for more than a few people. It's horrific. But I trust that God as creator has a right and do what wills, that he is just and caring and gives opportunity to heaven.
God even says judgment is His "strange work" and PLEADS with people to come to Him.

You seem like a nice person Noir and you have all the information you need to avoid Hell and go to Heaven for eternity but you seem to dismiss the offer. And want to reject the existence the creator outright.

Comforting words that I shall share with the unrepentant paedophiles I'll be sharing eternity with.



As i said NO answer is seems satisfactory. Much less universally agreed on by atheist.
But I and others have honestly given the answers --to the best of our understanding-- on many sometimes difficult questions.
But i've noticed that atheist often don't take the time to fully address questions and the problems they generate about their positions. Or integrate their "answers" to origins, morals, death and the long term course of the universe into real life.

Atheist answers generate bigger problems than those of the Christian. For the present life and for eternity.

becuase no Christian answer is satisfactory, nor any Buddhists, nor any Muslims, and so on...

[tailfins]

I'm sure you've known 'good' people who have passed on that were ether not religious or that did not specifically follow your religion, do you think those people deserve an eternity of torment?

In a word, yes. Presuming by "not religious", you mean someone who as rejected Jesus. If by "not religious", you mean backslidden, that person would NOT go to hell.


Ephesians 4:30 King James Version (KJV)

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

[revelarts]

Well isn't that nice.

Yes, as a matter a fact it is.



Comforting words that I shall share with the unrepentant paedophiles I'll be sharing eternity with.
I hope you never have the opportunity



because no Christian answer is satisfactory, nor any Buddhists, nor any Muslims, and so on...

so, Atheist answers generate bigger problems than those of the Christian. For the present life and for eternity.
"because no Christian answer is satisfactory, nor any Buddhists, nor any Muslims, and so on..."?

[Gunny]

As long as there are supplies, isolation sounds like paradise to me.

Think so? There are 3 days on float .... the first, the last, and that long MF-er in the middle. Isolation is exactly what it sounds like. I don't know about the younger puppies, but you take a lot for granted.

We didn't have cell phones in my day. It took 3-6 weeks to get mail. No news. When we came back to the world, we were stuck in the time warp from the day we left while the world moved on without us.

Be careful what you wish for.

[Noir]

Yes, as a matter a fact it is.

We have different concepts of nice.


I hope you never have the opportunity

Don't hope too hard.


so, Atheist answers generate bigger problems than those of the Christian. For the present life and for eternity.
"because no Christian answer is satisfactory, nor any Buddhists, nor any Muslims, and so on..."?

No, "No answer it seems is satisfactory" because no thiest answer is.

[Noir]

Think so? There are 3 days on float .... the first, the last, and that long MF-er in the middle. Isolation is exactly what it sounds like. I don't know about the younger puppies, but you take a lot for granted.

We didn't have cell phones in my day. It took 3-6 weeks to get mail. No news. When we came back to the world, we were stuck in the time warp from the day we left while the world moved on without us.

Be careful what you wish for.

Depends on the person, I was reading recently about people who go on meditation retreats, spending many weeks and even months living in a room a few metres square with zero human contact.

[Gunny]

Depends on the person, I was reading recently about people who go on meditation retreats, spending many weeks and even months living in a room a few metres square with zero human contact.

Sounds kind of self-centered. I loved my girls and wanted to be with them. They grew up without me. I was too busy running around the world taking care of everyone else.

[revelarts]

No, "No answer it seems is satisfactory" because no theist answer is.

"No, 'No answer it seems is satisfactory' because no thiest answer is".... to atheist.
fixed it for you.

Also "satisfactory to atheist" and "true" are often very different things as well.

[DragonStryk72]

and you, or at least your god, actively have no problem with pedophiles etc entering the island so long as at some point after raping children they realised they'd done wrong.

Okay, so Noir, question: Are mercy and forgiveness good things? No one deserves mercy, nor forgiveness. To deserve something means you've earned it. Granting mercy and forgiveness are a conscious act, hence why we say "Granting mercy" not "earning mercy". Also, simply saying "I done fucked up" isn't actually enough.

You have to actually repent, not just mimic repentance. So you might fool a human being, but that doesn't carry over.


Atheists don't have the problem, rather, atheists can see the problems that a number of the possible 'answers' generate.

I'm sure you've known 'good' people who have passed on that were ether not religious or that did not specifically follow your religion, do you think those people deserve an eternity of torment?

Actually, an eternity of torment is never specifically laid out in the Bible. While Christ does lay out that they won't get into the Kingdom of Heaven (Which if you're Hindu, why would you want in?), he never states anyone is going to hell. In fact, he covers it fairly well with, "Ask, and ye shall receive, seek, and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be open to you."

[revelarts]

Actually, an eternity of torment is never specifically laid out in the Bible. While Christ does lay out that they won't get into the Kingdom of Heaven (Which if you're Hindu, why would you want in?), he never states anyone is going to hell. In fact, he covers it fairly well with, "Ask, and ye shall receive, seek, and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be open to you."

another thread on the subject
#49 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?45985-Is-LITERAL-Hellfire-Torment-A-Bible-Teaching&p=713901#post713901)