Is waterboarding torture?

[Black Diamond]

John McCain has been waterboarded. He says it's torture. Sean hannity says it's not, but he hasn't gone through the experience (even though he said he would).

[jimnyc]

Here's a 110 page thread that is similar.... http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=11148

And IMO, no, it's not torture. No physical harm is done. It sucks, and they think they are drowning, but it's simulated only. Scary as fuck, but to me scary does not equate to torture.

Funny thing is, that I pointed out many times, is that so many are against waterboarding - but it would be perfectly acceptable to shoot these scumbags right in their face out in the field. But leave them living? Fake them into believing they are drowning? Allow them to then leave and go to sleep, and wake up the next day? That's wrong. It's better to shoot them in the face a few times, and no one complains.

[Gunny]

Here's a 110 page thread that is similar.... http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=11148

And IMO, no, it's not torture. No physical harm is done. It sucks, and they think they are drowning, but it's simulated only. Scary as fuck, but to me scary does not equate to torture.

Funny thing is, that I pointed out many times, is that so many are against waterboarding - but it would be perfectly acceptable to shoot these scumbags right in their face out in the field. But leave them living? Fake them into believing they are drowning? Allow them to then leave and go to sleep, and wake up the next day? That's wrong. It's better to shoot them in the face a few times, and no one complains.

Think about who you're talking to. I got NO problem shooting them in the head. You'll find part of this discussion in the Veteran's thread. Those of that are warriors want to play war, not some psycho game dreamed up by some nerd in a lab. But back to my original comment .... for the time, manpower and money spent on it, it's inefficient.

And, as a reminder .. I am speaking of efficiency, not legality. Another reminder ... I'm going to make up all kinds shit and tell you everything but what I know. These fanatics are hardcore. They aren't giving you shit unless you get lucky and find the weak link. The time and resources used aren't worth finding that needle in the haystack.

[jimnyc]

Think about who you're talking to. I got NO problem shooting them in the head. You'll find part of this discussion in the Veteran's thread. Those of that are warriors want to play war, not some psycho game dreamed up by some nerd in a lab. But back to my original comment .... for the time, manpower and money spent on it, it's inefficient.

And, as a reminder .. I am speaking of efficiency, not legality. Another reminder ... I'm going to make up all kinds shit and tell you everything but what I know. These fanatics are hardcore. They aren't giving you shit unless you get lucky and find the weak link. The time and resources used aren't worth finding that needle in the haystack.

While I don't think it would always be efficient, and I agree some of the more knowledgeable and hardened terrorists might take the simulation and stay silent or lie. But I would waterboard all high value targets for awhile and gather as much as possible. Those folks stay separated. Keep at it for 6 months for all I care, and continue to compare the information divulged. Suppose there are only 20 of truly high value targets... I think after such a period they should be able to find similar information, or enough to at least have the intel agencies peek into it. I'm certainly not saying to go to war with every link they give out. Worst case? They lie. Then they get free water out of it, and yes, we wasted some time looking into what they divulged. While I personally would want to water all of them at Gitmo, I don't think a small handful of them would kill the resources. Hell, it took 10 years to find the pork eater. If there were 20 of them on the drinking list, looking into their information wouldn't set us back that much in comparison.

Plus it's just good clean fun for all. :)

[Trigg]

yes it's torture! Even though it doesn't cause harm.

The better question is IMHO......does it work?

[Gunny]

While I don't think it would always be efficient, and I agree some of the more knowledgeable and hardened terrorists might take the simulation and stay silent or lie. But I would waterboard all high value targets for awhile and gather as much as possible. Those folks stay separated. Keep at it for 6 months for all I care, and continue to compare the information divulged. Suppose there are only 20 of truly high value targets... I think after such a period they should be able to find similar information, or enough to at least have the intel agencies peek into it. I'm certainly not saying to go to war with every link they give out. Worst case? They lie. Then they get free water out of it, and yes, we wasted some time looking into what they divulged. While I personally would want to water all of them at Gitmo, I don't think a small handful of them would kill the resources. Hell, it took 10 years to find the pork eater. If there were 20 of them on the drinking list, looking into their information wouldn't set us back that much in comparison.

Plus it's just good clean fun for all. :)

What I don't like is this ... if you're going to torture them, them, cut to the chase, call it what it is and use a more effective means. All this political pretense is what gets me. It's torture, plain and simple. I ain't losing any sleep over it. I'm just pointing out the inefficiency.

[jimnyc]

What I don't like is this ... if you're going to torture them, them, cut to the chase, call it what it is and use a more effective means. All this political pretense is what gets me. It's torture, plain and simple. I ain't losing any sleep over it. I'm just pointing out the inefficiency.

Personally, I say they shoot them like 4-5 times out on the field. Bring them to Gitmo and patch them up, only a half assed job. Let them slowly get infected and die even slower. No torture, just lack of care and maybe a little giggling if any of them groan or scream while in pain. Would that be torture, or just shitty bedside skills?

[Motown]

Waterboarding isn't torture but it is uncomfortable. I'd like to avoid this argument by shooting maggots in the head when they are captured. Easy Peasy.

[aboutime]

To be as honest as I can here on this topic. NO, waterboarding is not torture. No more than the

"Crossing The Line" Initiations used by the Navy...before it became POLITICALLY INCORRECT, and WUSSIFIED by the whiners who didn't know, when they joined the navy....they'd have to go to sea???

Crossing the line...EQUATOR initiation was a long standing tradition which was never harmful...but more embarrassing to the POLYWOGS who dared to cross the line, and become SHELLBACKS.

All, or at least many of the former traditions of life have been taken away by those who think getting a score in any sport is UNFAIR to the team that doesn't SCORE.
We are all doomed to pure, perpetual IGNORANCE, and STUPIDITY.
Anyone who doubts this....just watch the responses.

[Gunny]

yes it's torture! Even though it doesn't cause harm.

The better question is IMHO......does it work?

THAT is my point. Torture has NEVER worked. It's been tried throughout the centuries and especially in the 13th and 14th centuries. It gets you someone telling you what you want to hear just to get you to stop. By then, they probably don't even know what the truth is. They're just making up crap.

As a Marine, I am personally against the method. I'd hate to be tortured because I'm so damned hard headed I don't see anything good coming out of it. But it has to be defined. Waterboarding is systematic torture over a period of time. As a Marine, I catch your ass on guard duty and I want info I'll put a K-Bar to your throat in a second to get ANY info that might keep my Marines alive. EVERYBODY goes home with ME. There's no politics involved in that. I'm accomplishing a mission.

That's the problem with some of these "political" conversations. I have a singular point of view: Accomplish the mission and bring everyone you left with back with you. Any and everything is secondary to THAT. I don't give a crap who voted for who and what the armchair quarterbacks are thinking and I don't even care what my f-ing OIC thing=ks -- I've overridden a dumbass order more than once. And guess WHO enlisted Marines listen to?

But this behind the scenes we're smarter than everyone else crap and we can get outdated or false info stuff just seems pointless to me. And anyone that volunteers to go anywhere and do anything for spooks needs a psych eval.

[Gunny]

To be as honest as I can here on this topic. NO, waterboarding is not torture. No more than the

"Crossing The Line" Initiations used by the Navy...before it became POLITICALLY INCORRECT, and WUSSIFIED by the whiners who didn't know, when they joined the navy....they'd have to go to sea???

Crossing the line...EQUATOR initiation was a long standing tradition which was never harmful...but more embarrassing to the POLYWOGS who dared to cross the line, and become SHELLBACKS.

All, or at least many of the former traditions of life have been taken away by those who think getting a score in any sport is UNFAIR to the team that doesn't SCORE.
We are all doomed to pure, perpetual IGNORANCE, and STUPIDITY.
Anyone who doubts this....just watch the responses.

I HATED shelback initiation. That was a bunch of stupid shit. But it's a rite of passage we all went through. I'm actually a golden shellback. Crossed the date line and the equator at the same time. Y'all squids can come up with some disgusting shit.:laugh:

[Gunny]

Personally, I say they shoot them like 4-5 times out on the field. Bring them to Gitmo and patch them up, only a half assed job. Let them slowly get infected and die even slower. No torture, just lack of care and maybe a little giggling if any of them groan or scream while in pain. Would that be torture, or just shitty bedside skills?

Shoot their knees then have medical support standing by right in front of them, not doing a thing.

Put them on a chair on their toes where if their feet go down they hang themselves.

I'm just saying lets call it what it is.

[Gunny]

Waterboarding isn't torture but it is uncomfortable. I'd like to avoid this argument by shooting maggots in the head when they are captured. Easy Peasy.

No shit. Fuck all this dumb shit. A dead idiot is a good idiot.

[Elessar]

Shoot their knees then have medical support standing by right in front of them, not doing a thing.

Put them on a chair on their toes where if their feet go down they hang themselves.

I'm just saying lets call it what it is.

Don't shoot knees...do the feet and wrists first...

...then the ears...

...then the knees..

[Gunny]

Don't shoot knees...do the feet and wrists first...

...then the ears...

...then the knees..

You stomp on their instep. In combat boots. You want to see someone start whining like a little bitch?

I was just cutting to the chase. I hate wasting time.

[revelarts]

yes it's torture.
It's been known as torture for 500+ years.
In 2002 some americans decided that was to scary a word, sounded to harsh,
and began pretending that "its not really that bad."
To salve their conscious maybe or keep up a righteous appearance ("we don't torture")... i don't know. Or some have said elsewhere that "it's not torture because it doesn't cause permeant damage." Well i don't believe electric shocks to the nuts causes any real permeant damage ether. So it cannot be considered torture if that's done too, right?

The legal definitions of torture generally start with the use of pain in an attempt to coerce a wanted response from a captive. But many folks seem to want to debate at what level of pain, harm or discomfort they personally consider it "torturous" instead.

Then there's all the comments about not caring if it's done on terrorist anyway.
so why the wrangling over the definition, if you don't care what the gov't does? F' the law.
not sure where you draw the line on that type of thinking "what ever's necessary" is pretty arbitrary. No laws or constitution to worry about ever with that line in the sand.

And few seem to consider that some of the people waterboarded might (were) just accused, suspected or mistaken for terrorist. Should you care then? or as one poster said, "they're just Arabs" so why the fuss?

[jimnyc]

Then there's all the comments about not caring if it's done on terrorist anyway.
so why the wrangling over the definition, if you don't care what the gov't does? F' the law.

I'll say this much, I personally don't believe it's torture. And being that they are terrorists, I wouldn't care even if they were tortured, even if by the worst means imaginable.

Outside of that, I don't believe people are saying "F the law" as you imply, but rather they disagree with you as to what torture is. But that's different than me personally. Since it's more than a-ok to shoot them in the face out in the field - then I simply don't have an issue with treating them as human garbage either.

[revelarts]

I'll say this much, I personally don't believe it's torture. And being that they are terrorists, I wouldn't care even if they were tortured, even if by the worst means imaginable.

Outside of that, I don't believe people are saying "F the law" as you imply, but rather they disagree with you as to what torture is. But that's different than me personally. Since it's more than a-ok to shoot them in the face out in the field - then I simply don't have an issue with treating them as human garbage either.

so you are saying, that in your opinion, if they are terrorist, f' the law. do whatever. f the law.

Because you can only legally kill a terrorist in the field as he's trying to commit an act or evade capture.
But once in captivity other laws are suppose to apply.
so should they or not?

[jimnyc]

so you are saying, that in your opinion, if they are terrorist, f' the law. do whatever. f the law.

My personal opinion, YES, in capital letters. I see them as human garbage deserving of not much more than death. But I would prefer that they suffer on the way out.


Because you can only legally kill a terrorist in the field as he's trying to commit an act or evade capture.
But once in captivity the law is suppose to apply.
so should it or not?

Should it? Of course. And the law at the time did apply. And now things have changed, even though I disagree 100%.

But inside of me, I pray that there's a secret division out there in the world, that takes on things like this and tortures and kills terrorists anyway. Because while it may not be legal, I still want them to suffer and die.

My apologies, I don't intend this to sound mean or sarcastic towards you - I just hate terrorists and their buddies. I can't extend anything to them personally. If one of them was about to take his very last breath, I would quickly put a pillow over his mouth.

[revelarts]

My personal opinion, YES, in capital letters. I see them as human garbage deserving of not much more than death. But I would prefer that they suffer on the way out.

understandable



Should it? Of course. And the law at the time did apply. And now things have changed, even though I disagree 100%.
...

that's the legal question.

But does a few memos by Admin lawyers and an order from the President make it "legal"?
Obama thinks it does. W thought it did as well. But still 1st came denials and lies of the practice, and then word games with definitions. Then came some shyster style legal paper shuffling' in congress and USSC maneuvers. All after the fact BTW. Which would make the new "legality" somehow apply RETROACTIVELY? Because by that time it supposedly had stopped.

So it seems clear to me that it was in fact illegal when it was done. But was then sorta kinda maybe declared temporally legal... after the fact. Then acknowledge to be illegal again. Obama will love that kind of "law" as well.

But the half arse BS retroactive legal cover of U.S. doesn't wipe away the international war crime legal aspects.
This is why Cheney, Bush and others don't fly to certain countries. because they broke well established laws.
Even though it made people feel "safer" and feel a sense of righteous revenge.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

While I don't think it would always be efficient, and I agree some of the more knowledgeable and hardened terrorists might take the simulation and stay silent or lie. But I would waterboard all high value targets for awhile and gather as much as possible. Those folks stay separated. Keep at it for 6 months for all I care, and continue to compare the information divulged. Suppose there are only 20 of truly high value targets... I think after such a period they should be able to find similar information, or enough to at least have the intel agencies peek into it. I'm certainly not saying to go to war with every link they give out. Worst case? They lie. Then they get free water out of it, and yes, we wasted some time looking into what they divulged. While I personally would want to water all of them at Gitmo, I don't think a small handful of them would kill the resources. Hell, it took 10 years to find the pork eater. If there were 20 of them on the drinking list, looking into their information wouldn't set us back that much in comparison.

Plus it's just good clean fun for all. :)

They water boarded that stinking muslim sheik bastard and got loads of damn good info.
To get good info all they had to do is say we do this until we get verifiable information that pans out.-Tyr

[Gunny]

I'll say this much, I personally don't believe it's torture. And being that they are terrorists, I wouldn't care even if they were tortured, even if by the worst means imaginable.

Outside of that, I don't believe people are saying "F the law" as you imply, but rather they disagree with you as to what torture is. But that's different than me personally. Since it's more than a-ok to shoot them in the face out in the field - then I simply don't have an issue with treating them as human garbage either.

It IS torture. But my my give a shitter's broken. We treat prison inmates worse in this country and they ARE Americans and nobody cares. Why should we treat POWs better?

[Drummond]

I don't care whether it's torture or not. It's a means to an end. Terrorists undergoing such a procedure don't have a right to human consideration, since they're obviously not human in the first place .. therefore, discussions of legality are meaningless.

Pest exterminators, surely, aren't required to consider the 'human rights' of the vermin they kill ? So, why do terrorists - who, after all, WILL survive waterboarding - deserve superior consideration ? The very idea that they 'should' is as ludicrous as it is offensive.

[hjmick]

It ain't jumper cables to the testicles torture, but it is torture.





Albeit torture I can live with as it has reportedly been used against those who would do us harm in the last 14 years...




I'm not proud of that, but it is what it is and after much thought and reflection I came to the conclusion that if giving a terrorist a modified swirly might garner information that could save my daughters' lives... I can live with it.

[Gunny]

I don't care whether it's torture or not. It's a means to an end. Terrorists undergoing such a procedure don't have a right to human consideration, since they're obviously not human in the first place .. therefore, discussions of legality are meaningless.

Pest exterminators, surely, aren't required to consider the 'human rights' of the vermin they kill ? So, why do terrorists - who, after all, WILL survive waterboarding - deserve superior consideration ? The very idea that they 'should' is as ludicrous as it is offensive.

If it worked, I wouldn't have a problem. History however dictates that torture doesn't work.

[Drummond]

If it worked, I wouldn't have a problem. History however dictates that torture doesn't work.

It NEVER works ? Are you sure ?

Say you've got a terrorist locked up in Gitmo, and he's being uncommunicative towards his captors. Nothing else will work on him, because he's a 'hard case to crack'. How can anyone guarantee that the application of sufficient torture definitely will not yield useful results, saving innocent lives ?

There's also the point to consider that, even if detainees do lie under torture, cross-referencing of what a number of them might say, could still yield useful, discernible, information that'd not otherwise be gained.

[fj1200]

I don't care whether it's torture or not. It's a means to an end. Terrorists undergoing such a procedure don't have a right to human consideration, since they're obviously not human in the first place .. therefore, discussions of legality are meaningless.

Pest exterminators, surely, aren't required to consider the 'human rights' of the vermin they kill ? So, why do terrorists - who, after all, WILL survive waterboarding - deserve superior consideration ? The very idea that they 'should' is as ludicrous as it is offensive.

You lose an argument in one thread, no worry, just rehash them in another.

[Drummond]

You lose an argument in one thread, no worry, just rehash them in another.

When I ever DO lose an argument .. show me how I have. If I'm in the wrong, I'll concede.

Unfortunately for you, I've never yet reached that point in any of our debates. I don't anticipate ever doing so, frankly.

[Russ]

How about sleep deprivation? I've heard it works well, even though it takes time. And there is no physical coercion whatsoever.
I've also wondered truth serum drugs. Are they effective, and if so, why aren't they used more?

[NightTrain]

How about sleep deprivation? I've heard it works well, even though it takes time. And there is no physical coercion whatsoever.
I've also wondered truth serum drugs. Are they effective, and if so, why aren't they used more?


I've read that the truth serum drugs are Hollywood... the CIA experimented with them a long time ago but they didn't work.

[Drummond]

What about videos of Barry Manilow concerts ?:coffee:

[fj1200]

When I ever DO lose an argument .. show me how I have. If I'm in the wrong, I'll concede.

Unfortunately for you, I've never yet reached that point in any of our debates. I don't anticipate ever doing so, frankly.

Asked and answered. Whenever you drop a thread because you've failed to advance your argument; the examples are countless.

[Drummond]

Asked and answered. Whenever you drop a thread because you've failed to advance your argument; the examples are countless.

If I ever do 'drop' a thread, as you put it, the reasons vary.

It could be because I'm fed up with your derisory misquotes of my posts. It could be because you've derailed a thread. It could be because you fail to concede what's staring you in the face. It could be because you bait, rather than debate.

If arguments aren't 'advanced', it could be for any / some / all of the above reasons. Or, it could be because you fail to represent your own views - yourself - honestly.

And it could be that you're seeking to derail this thread, too. Am I wrong ?

[fj1200]

If I ever do 'drop' a thread, as you put it, the reasons vary.

It could be because I'm fed up with your derisory misquotes of my posts. It could be because you've derailed a thread. It could be because you fail to concede what's staring you in the face. It could be because you bait, rather than debate.

If arguments aren't 'advanced', it could be for any / some / all of the above reasons. Or, it could be because you fail to represent your own views - yourself - honestly.

And it could be that you're seeking to derail this thread, too. Am I wrong ?

There's always an excuse with your faulty imagination. Besides, who can derail this thread when rev already gave the answer, anything more is posturing.

[revelarts]

How about sleep deprivation? I've heard it works well, even though it takes time. And there is no physical coercion whatsoever.
I've also wondered truth serum drugs. Are they effective, and if so, why aren't they used more?

Sleep depravation can cause psychotic breaks and hallucinations, heart attack and even death if carried on long enough.
and you have do have to physically coerce someone not to sleep. It make not have to be painful coercion into health compromising positions.

And not sure about getting "truth" from a victim of sleep deprivation.

[Gunny]

It NEVER works ? Are you sure ?

Say you've got a terrorist locked up in Gitmo, and he's being uncommunicative towards his captors. Nothing else will work on him, because he's a 'hard case to crack'. How can anyone guarantee that the application of sufficient torture definitely will not yield useful results, saving innocent lives ?

There's also the point to consider that, even if detainees do lie under torture, cross-referencing of what a number of them might say, could still yield useful, discernible, information that'd not otherwise be gained.

Look at the manpower and money that's being wasted for what is basically outdated information. And, bubba, I've been through POW school. THAT was a f-ing blast. I lied my ass off. I had a top secret clearance and they knew it. They got to hear about how I liked butter n jelly sandwiches when I was a kid, how Lee's biggest mistake was not taking Little Round Top the first night at Gettysburg ... all kinds of really informative stuff like THAT.

And when I went through it was still based on Vietnamese crap. You got locked in a box 24-7 and soup once a day for a meal. But I NEVER gave away anything that would compromise this Nation nor its people.

Now, had they offered a deal willing to send every Democrat to Iraq, we may have been able to talk.:laugh:

[NightTrain]

Now, had they offered a deal willing to send every Democrat to Iraq, we may have been able to talk.:laugh:


I'd sing like a GD Canary.

[DLT]

John McCain has been waterboarded. He says it's torture. Sean hannity says it's not, but he hasn't gone through the experience (even though he said he would).

I would think that "real torture" would be some practice that leaves permanent physical damage. Like ripping off fingernails, cutting off body parts (like one finger at a time), etc. Water boarding makes suspects fear they are drowning, but no physical damage is done to them in the process.

So I would have to say no...it's not.

Oh...and by the way....don't listen to Snake/Maverick McCain. He's a damned RINO LIAR.

[Gunny]

How about sleep deprivation? I've heard it works well, even though it takes time. And there is no physical coercion whatsoever.
I've also wondered truth serum drugs. Are they effective, and if so, why aren't they used more?

Ask an expert. Me. It makes me psycho and revert to just being pissed. Me pissed and you getting info is a non-happening event. My mind is solely fixated on how I can destroy you. You ain't getting the truth out of me. Better not turn your back though.

[DLT]

Personally, I say they shoot them like 4-5 times out on the field. Bring them to Gitmo and patch them up, only a half assed job. Let them slowly get infected and die even slower. No torture, just lack of care and maybe a little giggling if any of them groan or scream while in pain. Would that be torture, or just shitty bedside skills?

Nah....that would just be ObamaCare ala US Veterans Administration....lol.

[Drummond]

There's always an excuse with your faulty imagination. Besides, who can derail this thread when rev already gave the answer, anything more is posturing.

So, you admit to mere 'posturing', then ?

Here's a thought. Less 'posturing' ... more actual DEBATE. H'm ?

[Drummond]

I would think that "real torture" would be some practice that leaves permanent physical damage. Like ripping off fingernails, cutting off body parts (like one finger at a time), etc. Water boarding makes suspects fear they are drowning, but no physical damage is done to them in the process.

So I would have to say no...it's not.

Oh...and by the way....don't listen to Snake/Maverick McCain. He's a damned RINO LIAR.

Well, I dunno .. I think Barry Manilow proves you wrong ... :laugh::laugh:

[Black Diamond]

Well, I dunno .. I think Barry Manilow proves you wrong ... :laugh::laugh:

Well you came and you gave without taking.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Drummond]

Look at the manpower and money that's being wasted for what is basically outdated information. And, bubba, I've been through POW school. THAT was a f-ing blast. I lied my ass off. I had a top secret clearance and they knew it. They got to hear about how I liked butter n jelly sandwiches when I was a kid, how Lee's biggest mistake was not taking Little Round Top the first night at Gettysburg ... all kinds of really informative stuff like THAT.

And when I went through it was still based on Vietnamese crap. You got locked in a box 24-7 and soup once a day for a meal. But I NEVER gave away anything that would compromise this Nation nor its people.

Now, had they offered a deal willing to send every Democrat to Iraq, we may have been able to talk.:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

I suppose I take your point. Although, I'm not sure ... your own experience and abilities don't have to have a match in some of the Gitmo detainees. They could be weaker specimens, better able to extract information from.

[Gunny]

I'd sing like a GD Canary.

Different world. I was young and dumb and as hardcore as it got. When you got other Marines telling you to lighten up, there's a clue. :laugh:

[Drummond]

Well you came and you gave without taking.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::bang3::bang3::bang3:

[Gunny]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I suppose I take your point. Although, I'm not sure ... your own experience and abilities don't have to have a match in some of the Gitmo detainees. They could be weaker specimens, better able to extract information from.

I think like what I am. An enlisted Marine. I'll admit I'm a bigger asshole than most, but the mentality is the same. Especially when it comes to systematic torture. As I said, you capture one of my guys I'm changing my plan immediately. That makes the info useless. And I don't care what anyone says or is reported, OBL was not killed from waterboarding. He was located and targeted by real-time troops. Anyone you're using systematic torture on is a waste of time. money and effort. And it isn't because I give one fucking rat's ass about THEM. You don't even want to know what I am capable of in some camouflaged utilities, a rifle, and about 6 blades.

But I know I ain't tossing myself into a shopping mall with a bomb strapped to my chest to kill women and children. Just send me to Leavenworth now if you want me to carry out that order. These people are fanatics. They aren't going to tell you crap unless you get lucky.

I'd kill them all and quit wasting my money and time on them.

[fj1200]

So, you admit to mere 'posturing', then ?

Here's a thought. Less 'posturing' ... more actual DEBATE. H'm ?

No. Keep up with the class. Any blustery sputtering beyond the actual answer is posturing no matter who does it... especially those who act tough while others do the actual hard work.

Besides, I debate you under the floor because your imagination gives you faulty information.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I suppose I take your point. Although, I'm not sure ... your own experience and abilities don't have to have a match in some of the Gitmo detainees. They could be weaker specimens, better able to extract information from.

Gunny being a Marine, I know they are massively weaker specimens! :salute:--:beer:--Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I think like what I am. An enlisted Marine. I'll admit I'm a bigger asshole than most, but the mentality is the same. Especially when it comes to systematic torture. As I said, you capture one of my guys I'm changing my plan immediately. That makes the info useless. And I don't care what anyone says or is reported, OBL was not killed from waterboarding. He was located and targeted by real-time troops. Anyone you're using systematic torture on is a waste of time. money and effort. And it isn't because I give one fucking rat's ass about THEM. You don't even want to know what I am capable of in some camouflaged utilities, a rifle, and about 6 blades.

But I know I ain't tossing myself into a shopping mall with a bomb strapped to my chest to kill women and children. Just send me to Leavenworth now if you want me to carry out that order. These people are fanatics. They aren't going to tell you crap unless you get lucky.

I'd kill them all and quit wasting my money and time on them.


I'd kill them all and quit wasting my money and time on them.

Exactly my thoughts on it as well! :beer: :salute: :beer:--Tyr

[Gunny]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I suppose I take your point. Although, I'm not sure ... your own experience and abilities don't have to have a match in some of the Gitmo detainees. They could be weaker specimens, better able to extract information from.

Gunny being a Marine, I know they are massively weaker specimens! :salute:--:beer:--Tyr

You're asking the wrong person. I'd just start beating on them. As a martial artist, I know exactly where to start beating. You can call it torture or whatever you like. I was always under the clock and needed info NOW, not in 3 weeks. I never said being captured by Gunny's company was a pleasant ride. You fucking wish. :laugh: You get some scared shitless shit for brains in the field, they sing like birds.

I just think systematic torture over a period of time is pointless.

[Drummond]

No. Keep up with the class. Any blustery sputtering beyond the actual answer is posturing no matter who does it... especially those who act tough while others do the actual hard work.

Besides, I debate you under the floor because your imagination gives you faulty information.

What do you mean, 'NO' .. ?? You've just 'qualified' the 'NO' with an argument that says 'YES' !!

FJ, for you to have any chance to genuinely 'argue me under the floor', you first need to do two things.

1. Argue logically and realistically.

2. Not retreat to self-serving fantasies that tell you you're winning, when you're not.

[Gunny]

What do you mean, 'NO' .. ?? You've just 'qualified' the 'NO' with an argument that says 'YES' !!

FJ, for you to have any chance to genuinely 'argue me under the floor', you first need to do two things.

1. Argue logically and realistically.

2. Not retreat to self-serving fantasies that tell you you're winning, when you're not.

WHat's this "under the floor" crap? Nobody ever tells me shit.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You're asking the wrong person. I'd just start beating on them. As a martial artist, I know exactly where to start beating. You can call it torture or whatever you like. I was always under the clock and needed info NOW, not in 3 weeks. I never said being captured by Gunny's company was a pleasant ride. You fucking wish. :laugh: You get some scared shitless shit for brains in the field, they sing like birds.

I just think systematic torture over a period of time is pointless.
Gunny, I was calling the muslim prisoners --"massively weaker specimens" my friend. In reply to Drummond's statement.-Tyr

[Gunny]

Gunny, I was calling the muslim prisoners --"massively weaker specimens" my friend. In reply to Drummond's statement.-Tyr

I could tell you some stories but I ain't Hillary.

[fj1200]

1. Argue logically and realistically.

It's all I ever do some stop whining and make an argument.

[Drummond]

It's all I ever do some stop whining and make an argument.:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

... Says 'The One True Thatcherite' .. ?!?? :laugh:

[namvet]

I prefer the electric wires tied to their nuts. juice em

[Gunny]

I prefer the electric wires tied to their nuts. juice em

Got to be careful with electricity though. You want to hook the neutral tied to some lights to their balls. Dirty electricity works WAY better than just voltage.

They set tasers at 50K v which aint shit. You get hit with 500 AMPS from a return, better hope your will's good to go.

[DragonStryk72]

John McCain has been waterboarded. He says it's torture. Sean hannity says it's not, but he hasn't gone through the experience (even though he said he would).

Yes. When a man who has been legitimately tortured says it's torture, it's torture. When you have to create legal loopholes for it, it's torture. When you have to redefine enemy troops as a term to do it, it's torture.

[namvet]

Got to be careful with electricity though. You want to hook the neutral tied to some lights to their balls. Dirty electricity works WAY better than just voltage.

They set tasers at 50K v which aint shit. You get hit with 500 AMPS from a return, better hope your will's good to go.

that's what you feel is the current. a VeriAC works great. amp it up

http://www.cathedralstone.net/Pics/TenmaVariac.jpg

[Gunny]

Yes. When a man who has been legitimately tortured says it's torture, it's torture. When you have to create legal loopholes for it, it's torture. When you have to redefine enemy troops as a term to do it, it's torture.

Just another word sensationalized instead of using it for what it is. It's also a matter of interpretation. Torture to ME is going to Walmart with my GF and her teenage daughters. Like herding cats. Or going to dinner with them. They chatter like chickens nonstop. I'm like "Eat your f-ng chow". I don't even know what the f- they're talking about.

[Noir]

Yes. When a man who has been legitimately tortured says it's torture, it's torture. When you have to create legal loopholes for it, it's torture. When you have to redefine enemy troops as a term to do it, it's torture.

100%

Everytime I hear someone say 'It's not torture, it's an enhanced interrogation technique' I feel my nurons firing all manor of unreasonable obscenities to my tongue-tip.


John McCain has been waterboarded. He says it's torture. Sean hannity says it's not, but he hasn't gone through the experience (even though he said he would).

Journalist Christopher Hitchens wrote that it wasn't torture, and that he would be water bored to prove so. After the water boarding (viewable online) and (IMO) to his credit he abruptly changed his viewpoint, and was very vocal about the fact that whatever else can be said or debated - water boarding is torture.

[Gunny]

100%

Everytime I hear someone say 'It's not torture, it's an enhanced interrogation technique' I feel my nurons firing all manor of unreasonable obscenities to my tongue-tip.



[/I][/COLOR]Journalist Christopher Hitchens wrote that it wasn't torture, and that he would be water bored to prove so. After the water boarding (viewable online) and (IMO) to his credit he abruptly changed his viewpoint, and was very vocal about the fact that whatever else can be said or debated - water boarding is torture.

By definition, you can call almost anything "torture" and "terrorism". I can take your thumb and twist it back against your hand and watch you cry like a little bitch. Or, put pressure between your fingers just above the knuckles. You can call anything what you like and misuse words all you like.

Again, I'm a Marine. I don't need outdated answers in 3 weeks. You talk NOW or just die. In case you haven't noticed, diplomacy ain't my strong suit. You can call it torture ... you can call it little green men from Mars ... I don't care. I'm accomplishing the mission and bringing the boys home and I could give a f- less what I have to destroy to accomplish just that. And I'm damned good at destroying shit.

[Noir]

By definition, you can call almost anything "torture" and "terrorism". I can take your thumb and twist it back against your hand and watch you cry like a little bitch. Or, put pressure between your fingers just above the knuckles. You can call anything what you like and misuse words all you like.

Again, I'm a Marine. I don't need outdated answers in 3 weeks. You talk NOW or just die. In case you haven't noticed, diplomacy ain't my strong suit. You can call it torture ... you can call it little green men from Mars ... I don't care. I'm accomplishing the mission and bringing the boys home and I could give a f- less what I have to destroy to accomplish just that. And I'm damned good at destroying shit.

Indeed, no doubt you'd commit whatever war crimes you feel are necessary.

[Gunny]

Indeed, no doubt you'd commit whatever war crimes you feel are necessary.

I have never committed a war crime. You assume. However, I'm bringing MY Marines home to their wives and children. THAT is my job. Yours is running your doing nothing ass mouth on a message board. I got news for you Mr I Let Others Pay for My Freedom ... British Royal Marines that do your fighting for you are more hard corps than I am. They don't play.

So when you want to start pointing fingers, you might want to consider who's paying for your ability to do so instead of sitting around applying pussy ass rules to how they go about it.

[namvet]

if their ragheads just kill em all. their animals anyway

[Noir]

if their ragheads just kill em all. their animals anyway

Well that seems perfectly reasonable =/

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Well that seems perfectly reasonable =/

A LOGICAL ACTION TO TAKE TOO!!!!!---Tyr

[Gunny]

Well that seems perfectly reasonable =/

Pretty accurate, like it or not. The ones that aren't trying to kill you are trying to figure out how to get your money.

[Drummond]

Well that seems perfectly reasonable =/

You're looking for excuses to be kind to terrorists ?

[DLT]

Well, I dunno .. I think Barry Manilow proves you wrong ... :laugh::laugh:

Sorry...but....I have permanently and indelibly marked every name starting with "Barry" out of my memory banks for ...EVER.

But speaking of torture.....an episode of Fear The Walking Dead has Ruben Blades' character torturing a soldier for crucial information about his family, their safety and their future. Now...granted...this soldier did happen to be a guy his daughter was interested in...hehe....but I digress.

Point is...he found out that the US military was planning to kill them all at 0900 the next day. Humanely, of course.

I would have ripped his fingernails out for that kind of info to save MY family. But that's just me. :cool:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Pretty accurate, like it or not. The ones that aren't trying to kill you are trying to figure out how to get your money.




The ones that aren't trying to kill you are trying to figure out how to get your money.

Or rape your wife, daughter , sister, aunt , pretty cousin, girlfriend, grandmother,
goat, dog, etc...Not joking.
Thee is a reason the keep their women completely covered as the vermin can not control their satanic lustful sexual urges. Tis' why the STINKING CULT BOOK-KORAN- COMMANDS THEM WHEN IN BATTLE TO RAPE THE WOMEN OF THEIR CONQUERED FOES.
BECAUSE THEY WERE GOING TO DO IT ANYWAYS AND SEXUAL REPRESSION IS A FORM OF CONTROL
USED TO INSTILL DEEP ANGER AND A LUST FOR WAR BOOTY(PUN UNINTENDED).-Tyr

[Noir]

You're looking for excuses to be kind to terrorists ?

I'm personally against the idea of committing genocide.

[Gunny]

Or rape your wife, daughter , sister, aunt , pretty cousin, girlfriend, grandmother,
goat, dog, etc...Not joking.
Thee is a reason the keep their women completely covered as the vermin can not control their satanic lustful sexual urges. Tis' why the STINKING CULT BOOK-KORAN- COMMANDS THEM WHEN IN BATTLE TO RAPE THE WOMEN OF THEIR CONQUERED FOES.
BECAUSE THEY WERE GOING TO DO IT ANYWAYS AND SEXUAL REPRESSION IS A FORM OF CONTROL
USED TO INSTILL DEEP ANGER AND A LUST FOR WAR BOOTY(PUN UNINTENDED).-Tyr

You ain't allowed to rape my goat, dammit. And you just go ahead and hurt one of my daughters. Might want to start reading Revelations before you try THAT crap.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You ain't allowed to rape my goat, dammit. And you just go ahead and hurt one of my daughters. Might want to start reading Revelations before you try THAT crap.

COMPLETELY AGREE.. Hell, I'd break any of them like a damn twig for merely try to touch my wife or daughter!
They would see the raging Injun' in me come out and scalp'em if they tried to do anything worse.--Tyr

[Gunny]

COMPLETELY AGREE.. Hell, I'd break any of them like a damn twig for merely try to touch my wife or daughter!
They would see the raging Injun' in me come out and scalp'em if they tried to do anything worse.--Tyr

My baby girl is unconditional love. She cusses like a Marine and will tell me off in a heartbeat (she is MY baby girl :laugh:) . But I am always daddy. You touch one hair on that head and Hell ain't got a place to hide you from me. I'm coming. That simple.

[Drummond]

I'm personally against the idea of committing genocide.

Excellent !

Then, what actions do you recommend are taken against the Iranians, considering (a) their publicly stated intentions towards Israel, and (b) their developing a technology that just HAPPENS (what a surprise !) to be one that'd do the job .. ? ?

.. any actions at all ?

Besides, who knows - some enterprising interrogator might, through methods you'd personally disapprove of, gain information that'd allow for precision in attacking those who'd chiefly mastermind such genocide ... did you ever think of that ?

[Nonnie]

Not calling Waterboarding torture is like saying getting sucked off in the Whitehouse is not sex.:laugh:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Not calling Waterboarding torture is like saying getting sucked off in the Whitehouse is not sex.:laugh:

Do not beat around the bush, just tell us how you really feel. ;)--Tyr

[Noir]

Excellent !

Then, what actions do you recommend are taken against the Iranians, considering (a) their publicly stated intentions towards Israel, and (b) their developing a technology that just HAPPENS (what a surprise !) to be one that'd do the job .. ? ?

.. any actions at all ?

Besides, who knows - some enterprising interrogator might, through methods you'd personally disapprove of, gain information that'd allow for precision in attacking those who'd chiefly mastermind such genocide ... did you ever think of that ?

Are you going to condemn Namvets call for genocide, or are you fine with it?

As for Iran we must work with moderates and progressives both internally and externally involved with Iranian politics, the populace of Iran being the most important factor.

[Motown]

Are you going to condemn Namvets call for genocide, or are you fine with it?

As for Iran we must work with moderates and progressives both internally and externally involved with Iranian politics, the populace of Iran being the most important factor.

I think there would be reprisals against any Iranian caught dealing with the West in an effort to undermine their status quo.

[Noir]

I think there would be reprisals against any Iranian caught dealing with the West in an effort to undermine their status quo.

Yes, almost certainly on an industrial level. But on an individual (citizen) level, punishments are much less effective (indeed if anything they are counter productive).

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Are you going to condemn Namvets call for genocide, or are you fine with it?

As for Iran we must work with moderates and progressives both internally and externally involved with Iranian politics, the populace of Iran being the most important factor.

Are you going to condemn the muslim call for genocide or are you fine with it?????
Difference they are actually doing it everyday--but I've seen no major condemnation of them from you!

To me you are like the preacher that condemns whores every Sunday at church and then regularly has sex with several church members wives!!
Greatest mass murdering group in mankind's history-Islam and you do not condemn them like you try to do one man voicing his frustrations.
Low estimate is that Islam has murdered at least 250 million people in its 1400+ years history and it plans on murdering far more than that in the future.
Was killing every Nazi genocide or was it justice?-Tyr

[Drummond]

Are you going to condemn Namvets call for genocide, or are you fine with it?

As for Iran we must work with moderates and progressives both internally and externally involved with Iranian politics, the populace of Iran being the most important factor.

What I am fine with, Noir, is getting rid of a threat, rather than finding excuses to pussyfoot around it, trying always to find ways of equivocating into a cloud-cuckooland sense of reality that does nobody any good.

You talk as though it's easy to find people in Iran you can trust !! Why on earth would you think this ? If in fact you did manage to identify your so-called 'moderates and progressives' .. how would you know who was really pulling their strings ?

Back in 2009, an entirely hidden nuclear facility was found within Iran .. luckily, it was discovered before it became operational. Now, can you guarantee me that no more of them exist ? Can you guarantee that Iran has had no way of making progress towards producing its own nukes that can't be uncovered ?

NO, NOIR, YOU CAN'T.

Iran was proven, years ago, to be willing to hide its full capabilities. By the sheer nature of the problem, you've no way at all to be sure they're not still doing it. So, while you're looking for your 'moderates' and 'progressives' .. WHO COULD BE NOTHING MORE THAN DIVERSIONS FROM A DEADLIER REALITY .. Iran could well be inching closer to its aim of turning Israel into a radioactive wasteland.

[Noir]

Are you going to condemn the muslim call for genocide or are you fine with it????? Difference they are actually doing it everyday--but I've seen no major condemnation of them from you! To me you are like the preacher that condemns whores every Sunday at church and then regularly has sex with several church members wives!! Greatest mass murdering group in mankind's history-Islam and you do not condemn them like you try to do one man voicing his frustrations. Low estimate is that Islam has murdered at least 250 million people in its 1400+ years history and it plans on murdering far more than that in the future.-Tyr

Of Course, I would condemn anyone who is advocating genocide.

Are you inclined to do the same?

[Noir]

What I am fine with, Noir, is getting rid of a threat, rather than finding excuses to pussyfoot around it, trying always to find ways of equivocating into a cloud-cuckooland sense of reality that does nobody any good. You talk as though it's easy to find people in Iran you can trust !! Why on earth would you think this ? If in fact you did manage to identify your so-called 'moderates and progressives' .. how would you know who was really pulling their strings ? Back in 2009, an entirely hidden nuclear facility was found within Iran .. luckily, it was discovered before it became operational. Now, can you guarantee me that no more of them exist ? Can you guarantee that Iran has had no way of making progress towards producing its own nukes that can't be uncovered ? NO, NOIR, YOU CAN'T. Iran was proven, years ago, to be willing to hide its full capabilities. By the sheer nature of the problem, you've no way at all to be sure they're not still doing it. So, while you're looking for your 'moderates' and 'progressives' .. WHO COULD BE NOTHING MORE THAN DIVERSIONS FROM A DEADLIER REALITY .. Iran could well be inching closer to its aim of turning Israel into a radioactive wasteland.

Its remarkable that when as simple a question as 'do you condemn genocide' leads to such detailed replies, with no answer.

[Drummond]

Of Course, I would condemn anyone who is advocating genocide.

Are you inclined to do the same?

Words, Noir, just words.

How about ACTIONS, designed to prevent the possibility of it ?

Iran, not too many years ago, was advocating genocide against Israel. Bear in mind that they've not even so much as had the decency to apologise for it ! So, Noir, how do you 'advocate' they be prevented from ever achieving that aim .. given, of course, that they could steer a coach and horses clear through the current monitoring agreement recently drawn up and signed up to !!

I look forward to your answer, which will no doubt include something that'll advocate a very soft, forgiving, 'progressive' NON-solution.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Of Course, I would condemn anyone who is advocating genocide.

Are you inclined to do the same?

I suspect that your idea of genocide may just include justice that is forced to be delivered to evil, murdering bastards.
And my answer would thus be no..

However, should you actively denounce and faithfully campaign against Islam as the greatest mass murdering group in earth's history we can agree on a few things.

I would never agree to broad and general view unless I knew the specifics involved.

Islam--forces-- a "its them or us " policy. Our problem is we do not want to face that reality, even when we see t em murdering worldwide tens of thousands yearly and wanting to murder far, far, far more!-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Its remarkable that when as simple a question as 'do you condemn genocide' leads to such detailed replies, with no answer.

No its not--as first you must explain what you define as genocide!
Delivering sweet justice to murdering Islamist thugs is not genocide..--Tyr

[Noir]

Words, Noir, just words.

How about ACTIONS, designed to prevent the possibility of it ?

Iran, not too many years ago, was advocating genocide against Israel. Bear in mind that they've not even so much as had the decency to apologise for it ! So, Noir, how do you 'advocate' they be prevented from ever achieving that aim .. given, of course, that they could steer a coach and horses clear through the current monitoring agreement recently drawn up and signed up to !!

I look forward to your answer, which will no doubt include something that'll advocate a very soft, forgiving, 'progressive' NON-solution.

I have already answered this question in posts above, clearly you disagree with my answer, which is fair enough.

Going out of your way to ignore the genocide question is odd.

[Drummond]

Its remarkable that when as simple a question as 'do you condemn genocide' leads to such detailed replies, with no answer.

Then I suggest you read my posts a little more closely.

In fact, I covered (admittedly without giving a great deal of detail) the issue of 'an answer' at the beginning of my post.

I talked about GETTING RID of a threat .. and I meant what I said.

What the world really needs, Noir, is an immediate resumption of the War on Terror .. which, 'of course', America's Leftie-in-Chief, Barack Hussein Obama, has made sure is stalled into nonexistence.

When the War on Terror was ongoing, Noir, there was good reason to take actions in pursuance of it .. such as, for example, the invasion of Iraq, in 2003. Resuming the War on Terror would mean resuming all the actions previously undertaken in its name. SO -- why not bomb Iran's known facilities, thereby destroying whatever capabilities they might have had ?

Why not follow it up with a full-scale invasion ? Just as Iraq was invaded to finally solve the WMD issue, so Iran could be invaded to search for hidden facilities (it's not as though we don't know they're willing to build them !!).

Bear also in mind that Iran is known to be the leading sponsor of terrorism on the planet ! On those grounds alone, how could they not richly qualify for War on Terror action ??

SO, Noir ... let's see you dream up some excuses for protecting Iran against such actions .. as befits Leftie equivocators !

Bring it on ...

[Noir]

No its not--as first you must explain what you define as genocide!
Delivering sweet justice to murdering Islamist thugs is not genocide..--Tyr

Okay - lets set our parameter as "if they're ragheads just kill em all"

[Drummond]

I have already answered this question in posts above, clearly you disagree with my answer, which is fair enough.

Going out of your way to ignore the genocide question is odd.

You've equivocated, Noir. You've done what Lefties usually do, and tried to avoid recognising the need for tough and decisive action.

I don't advocate genocide as such. I do advocate the taking of whatever military actions will negate threats to the safety and security of victimised nations .. and Noir, if Israel, which puts up with a level of terrorism against it that no other nation on earth would put up with, ISN'T a victimised nation .. who IS ??

Iran is a known threat against Israel. I say, do all that must be done to END that threat.

Instead, what have we seen ? Iran buying years upon years of time for itself, in totally unproductive 'talks' .. finally followed up by an 'agreement' which gives Iran up to 24 days of agreed equivocation-time to hide all they're up to, before inspections have to happen !

The 'negotiation' route is useless .. it achieves nothing worthwhile. This therefore mandates an alternative. I advocate just such an alternative.

[Noir]

I don't advocate genocide as such.

Well, that's good to hear :clap:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Okay - lets set our parameter as "if they're ragheads just kill em all"

Depends on the context and if that is speaking about Jihadist fighters.
If it is about Jihadist fighters then I agree with it at least 1000% or maybe even more!

I suspect Noir, that you see too damn many shades of gray!
While I have no problem seeing black and white. Islam and its followers are by definition and action firmly in the black category IMHO.-Tyr

[Drummond]

Well, that's good to hear :clap::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Noir - this is priceless. A classic example of a Leftie only choosing to see what he wants to see.

WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF MY POST ?

... or is that too tough to tackle, as it'll involve recognising unwelcome truths ?

[Drummond]

Depends on the context and if that is speaking about Jihadist fighters.
If it is about Jihadist fighters then I agree with it at least 1000% or maybe even more!

I suspect Noir, that you see too damn many shades of gray!
While I have no problem seeing black and white. Islam and its followers are by definition and action firmly in the black category IMHO.-Tyr

Noir sees whatever it best suits his purposes to see. Be it 'too many shades of gray' .. or, as little as he needs to see, in order to have his worldview survive it !!

[Motown]

Okay - lets set our parameter as "if they're ragheads just kill em all"

No. Let's set the limit at advocating torture. Do you? You've made it clear that you think it's bad no matter what. Am I correct?

[Noir]

No. Let's set the limit at advocating torture. Do you? You've made it clear that you think it's bad no matter what. Am I correct?

I don't advocate torture,
and i don't think it's 'bad no matter what'.

[Gunny]

Are you going to condemn Namvets call for genocide, or are you fine with it?

As for Iran we must work with moderates and progressives both internally and externally involved with Iranian politics, the populace of Iran being the most important factor.

Let's see ... it's the 21st century. They've been a pain in the ass since the 7th century.

Your second sentence is just stupid, shows your ignorance, and not worthy of further comment.

[Gunny]

Yes, almost certainly on an industrial level. But on an individual (citizen) level, punishments are much less effective (indeed if anything they are counter productive).

Not going to happen. You've got at LEAST 2 generations of people raised to believe we are evil. They think no differently of us than we do them and they tie their own hands with their stupid religion.

[Gunny]

I have already answered this question in posts above, clearly you disagree with my answer, which is fair enough.

Going out of your way to ignore the genocide question is odd.

Define "genocide". Is that the thing they are trying to commit on Israel and the West in general. I don't think we have a "convert or die" policy. Unless something has come up this AM I'm unaware of. So WHO exactly is guilty of genocide? People like you with your mindset are THE reason THEIR genocidal BS is a problem. You want try and rationalize everything away, including the elephant in the room.

[Motown]

I have already answered this question in posts above, clearly you disagree with my answer, which is fair enough.

Going out of your way to ignore the genocide question is odd.

Noir, do you disagree with torture in general or do you just disagree with your people doing it?

[Noir]

Not going to happen. You've got at LEAST 2 generations of people raised to believe we are evil. They think no differently of us than we do them and they tie their own hands with their stupid religion.

Mass interconnectivity dispels such 'evils' effortlessly.

[Motown]

So in other words Noir is OK with torture as long as his people don't do it. Nice! Nice and hypocritical.

[aboutime]

So in other words Noir is OK with torture as long as his people don't do it. Nice! Nice and hypocritical.


Sounds like Noir condones 'beheadings', 'hangings', and 'stonings'. Not to mention how France was the first nation to use the guillotine. Would anyone consider any of those Torture???

[Drummond]

Mass interconnectivity dispels such 'evils' effortlessly.

You're dreaming. You surely can't be that naive !!

What makes you think that the Iranian authorities would ever allow 'Western' ideas to ever spread to the Iranian people in general - or, for that matter, for anyone in Iran to freely express any realities about Iran which their authorities might disapprove of (for whatever reason) ?

See ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Iran


Internet censorship in Iran has been increasing. In the first few years of the 21st century, Iran experienced a great surge in Internet usage, and, with 20 million people on the Internet, currently has the second highest percentage of its population online in the Middle East, after Israel.

Almost 50% of the top 500 visited websites in the world, including YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, and Google Plus, are blocked in Iran. The blocked sites have a wide range of topics including health, science, sports, news, and even shopping.

Attempting to visit a blacklisted page will always redirect you to peyvandha.ir in 25 Seconds, after replacing the desired page with this page. That is abortable optionally by a click on (ماندن در این صفحه)[3]

When initially introduced, the Internet services provided by the government within Iran were comparatively open. Many users saw the Internet as an easy way to get around Iran's strict press laws. Internet censorship increased with the administration of conservative president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in 2005. Regime opponents in Iran are said to rely heavily on Web-based communication with the outside world.

Many bloggers, online activists, and technical staff have faced jail terms, harassment and abuse. In 2006 and again in 2010, the activist group Reporters Without Borders labeled Iran one of the 12 or 13 countries it designated "Enemies of the Internet". Reporters Without the Borders sent a letter to UN high Comissioner for human rights Navi Pillay to share its deep concern and ask for her intervention in the case of two netizens/free speech defenders, Vahid Asghari and Hossein Derakhshan. One of major accusation of Vahid Asghari was creating a national plan against censorship by the government.

In preparation for the March 2012 elections, the Iran government instituted strict rules on cybercafes and is preparing to launch a national Internet. It also requires all Iranians to register their web sites with the Ministry of art and culture.

At the beginning of March 2012, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran’s Supreme Leader told Iranian authorities to set up a body to oversee the Internet. The body which is called The Supreme Council of Virtual Space will consist of the president, culture and information minister, the police and Revolutionary Guard chiefs. Their task will be to define policy and co-ordinate decisions regarding the Internet. This is thought to be the country’s authorities strongest attempt at controlling the Internet so far.

YOU trust such people if you want to, Noir. The rest of us see this as an approach designed to close off Iran from scrutiny, and to stop Iranians from ever questioning 'official lines' on issues. This is because .. they 'deserve to be trusted' ??

[Gunny]

Mass interconnectivity dispels such 'evils' effortlessly.

Dumb. My last comment: elephant in the room. They don't care about your ability to spell nor rationalize. They want to kill you. You either get your ass down in the dirt and fight, or you die. They don't give a f*ck about you trying to rationalize their actions by YOUR beliefs.

[Nonnie]

Sounds like Noir condones 'beheadings', 'hangings', and 'stonings'. Not to mention how France was the first nation to use the guillotine. Would anyone consider any of those Torture???

No, they're capital punishments and you can't measure/compare history against current laws and ethics otherwise everyone in history will fail.

Take what we do now, in the future, laws and ethics change. So what is right now will fail in the future.

[jimnyc]

No, they're capital punishments and you can't measure/compare history against current laws and ethics otherwise everyone in history will fail.

Take what we do now, in the future, laws and ethics change. So what is right now will fail in the future.

I could be wrong, but I think AT kinda was talking about the differences between the US and other Islamic countries. People go ballistic on the US for waterboarding - folks that are breathing this very day - and still go on about it many years later. Meanwhile, in many Islamic countries, they are literally cutting peoples heads off. Many by ISIS or other groups in some sort of wars against one another. Then you also see it for crimes like adultery or robbery. I very rarely see someone getting their head lopped off for a crime of murder. It's just barbaric in so many other countries.

I know people aren't running around condoning it. But there's still a HUGE difference in any type of coverage, or outrage. One would think that if someone has outrage for waterboarding, that they would be beyond outraged at the ENDLESS amount of beheadings in the Islamic world.

[Noir]

So in other words Noir is OK with torture as long as his people don't do it. Nice! Nice and hypocritical.

No, that is not what I think.
I am against torture, but would probably be condone its use given the some 'but you're certain this terrorist knows which school has a bomb planted in its hallway' hypothetical.

[Gunny]

I could be wrong, but I think AT kinda was talking about the differences between the US and other Islamic countries. People go ballistic on the US for waterboarding - folks that are breathing this very day - and still go on about it many years later. Meanwhile, in many Islamic countries, they are literally cutting peoples heads off. Many by ISIS or other groups in some sort of wars against one another. Then you also see it for crimes like adultery or robbery. I very rarely see someone getting their head lopped off for a crime of murder. It's just barbaric in so many other countries.

I know people aren't running around condoning it. But there's still a HUGE difference in any type of coverage, or outrage. One would think that if someone has outrage for waterboarding, that they would be beyond outraged at the ENDLESS amount of beheadings in the Islamic world.

IMO, if you're trashing us and ignoring them, you ARE condoning it.

[Gunny]

No, they're capital punishments and you can't measure/compare history against current laws and ethics otherwise everyone in history will fail.

Take what we do now, in the future, laws and ethics change. So what is right now will fail in the future.

Ethics are one thing, but he who is willing to fight dirtiest wins. There are no ethics in combat. Trying to superimpose them on us just makes us targets. I'm going to win and you can stick your rules. Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

And I NEVER want to tell another Marine's wife I got her husband killed EVER. And I don't care what rules, structures and/or anything else I have to destroy to do it. It ain't a game nor a board discussion when you're manning the line.

[aboutime]

No, they're capital punishments and you can't measure/compare history against current laws and ethics otherwise everyone in history will fail.

Take what we do now, in the future, laws and ethics change. So what is right now will fail in the future.

Personally. I am pretty pragmatic about life, and reality. Therefore, I know. Nothing any of us say here, nor what any of us think about this topic...other than a forum where it can be argued until we all turn BLUE in the face; will have any effect on the reality that has, and will take place concerning waterboarding, or any of the other so-called forms of torture. NONE OF US have any power to change that. And finally. If the life of ANY AMERICAN hangs in the balance as to whether waterboarding is, or isn't used to gain vital information that MIGHT save a life. I hope the powers that be USE IT. We can all complain, or express our displeasure with what you call torture UNTIL.....It involves YOU, or someone in your FAMILY.

You can argue as much as you like. I'll stick with every effort to SAVE A LIFE first.

[fj1200]

IMO, if you're trashing us and ignoring them, you ARE condoning it.

I'm not sure that I would read this as anyone trashing us nor ignoring them. Yes, we do largely get in a huge kerfuffle about what we do in relation to what they do... but we're better and should act like it.