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WiccanLiberal
10-30-2015, 07:31 PM
If any are interested, I found this presentation to be a useful summary of some aspects of my faith that may make it more understandable for those outside.




http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2015/10/30/10-things-i-wish-everyone-knew-about-wicca/38007

I had the good fortune of being born into Wicca. That’s an unusual situation: the vast majority of Wiccans — including my parents, whose parents were various sorts of Low Protestant — converted from other religions. The Halloween season invites many questions from people outside of Wicca about the nature of our religion. Some of those questions are things that even I didn’t have a good answer for, despite having been involved with Wicca since the day I was born. With that in mind, here are 10 things about Wicca I wish more people knew.
1. “Wicca” means different things to different people.Wicca has no central authority to dictate the shape of the religion. We have traditions, certainly, but those traditions vary widely between groups and individual practitioners. As a result, generalizations about the religion — “this is what Wiccans believe” — are hard, if not impossible, to make. Some things remain constant, but nothing I write here is likely to apply to 100 percent of Wiccans.
Widely cited “universal” Wiccan beliefs, such as the Witches Rede — “Do what thou wilt an it harm none” — and the Threefold Law — “whatever you do shall be returned to you three times over” — were never even mentioned in my home growing up.
I’m reminded of Robert Anton Wilson’s tremendously helpful term “sumbunall” — that is, some, but not all. Feel free to insert “sumbunall” liberally throughout the rest of this article.
2. All Wiccans are Pagan, but not all Pagans are Wiccan.Although Wicca is the most widely known of the Neo-Pagan religions, it’s not the only one. These religions are often lumped together by people within and without the Pagan community, but there are important differences between Wicca and other faiths, such as Heathenry and Druidry.
These religions can have different calendars, theologies, and ritual forms. One of the debates happening in the Pagan world right now, in fact, is figuring out the most equitable way to represent multiple forms of Paganism at major public events without giving undue attention to Wiccan practices.
3. Wiccans have diverse views of theology, even within their own communities.So what do Wiccans believe? That’s another question with many potential answers. The usual answer is that Wiccans believe in a God and Goddess who manifest in the form of the deities familiar to us from mythology and tradition. But the exact nature of those entities is a matter of personal interpretation.
Some Wiccans believe in the supernatural reality of divinity, while others may view the God and Goddess as archetypal forces within the human mind. The Goddess is frequently identified with the Earth itself (or herself!), and the God with the sun.
There has also been pushback from some queer Wiccans regarding this binary model of God and Goddess, which can be seen as alienating to people who don’t fit into Western society’s gender norms. Even this most basic aspect of Wiccan theology is subject to evolve.
4. Wiccans approach ritual as a creative art form.In my family coven, every ritual is unique. We write an entirely new script for every holy day. My ritual partner and I not long ago completed a cycle of all the major holidays, or sabbats, in which we adopted a different mythology for each one, for example.
At major Pagan festivals, there are Wiccans who take great pleasure in presenting public rituals that play with the form of our ceremonies — I have seen a ritual that used only occult material available in the nineteenth century for its text and a ritual that used a stand-up comedy routine in place of the liturgy.
A few features characterize the standard Wiccan ritual — an invocation of the elements, for example — but one of the great joys of Wicca is seeing how our fellows adapt the form to their own individual purposes.
5. Even though Wicca is a young religion, it still has deeply held traditions.Wicca is a creation of the twentieth century, more or less, although it follows from developments that had been taking place in the United Kingdom for many years before it was “officially” introduced to the broader world by Gerald Gardner in 1954.
Most Wiccans no longer believe in the famous Margaret Murray “witch-cult theory,” which suggested that Wicca was a belief system handed down in secret since the Paleolithic era. That’s not to say, however, that Wicca lacks rich traditions that have been handed down over the course of decades. Some of these practices may exist primarily within one group’s memory: at my family’s Samhain (Halloween) celebrations, for example, our rituals have included a moment where we speak the names of our dead as far back as I can remember. Eventually, these practices come to form the unique identity of an individual Wiccan group.
6. Some Wiccans belong to covens; others don’t.Wicca was originally conceived of as a coven-based, initiatory religion in which prospective Wiccans had to undergo a vetting process and then be inducted into a coven through a special ritual. This initiatory tradition is still alive and vibrant today, and many covens can trace their histories back to major figures in Wiccan history, such as Gardner or Gwyddion Pendderwen.
But most Wiccans today are, to use the term of art, “solitary practitioners” who worship without groups and without initiation into a lineage. These solitary Wiccans study their religion through books and discussion with other Pagans, a process that has become much easier since the internet became widely available. Both the initiated and the solitary practitioners are “true” Wiccans, although the way their worship looks may vary dramatically.
7. Pretty much no popular depiction of Wicca has come close to being accurate.This probably comes as no surprise to anyone who thinks about religion seriously, but even today there are few pop culture images of Wicca that bear any real resemblance to the religion as it is practiced. While most Wiccans believe in magick on some level, our magick doesn’t resemble the fantastic portrayals seen in The Craft or Witches of East End. (Ours is much more dangerous!)
That’s not to say that Wiccans don’t enjoy these works — on the contrary, I know quite a few Wiccans who were ardent followers of American Horror Story: Coven — but pop-culture Wicca is even less dependable than pop-culture Catholicism.
8. Wiccans tend to be eclectic, for better or for worse.Wicca, in contrast to many of the other Pagan religions, does not usually limit itself to one set of gods. As an example, while Heathenry, by definition, only includes the Germanic deities, Wiccans often include gods from many different pantheons on their altars, and include ritual practices from an equally large number of religious traditions.
For the individual practitioner, this eclectic approach to religion means that every Wiccan can interact with the divinities and practices that speak most powerfully to them; however, it can also lead to a shallow, or even offensive, understanding of the beliefs held in other religions.
9. Wiccans seek to “re-enchant the world.”This phrase, “re-enchanting the world,” is one that I admittedly have heard used only recently, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. Wicca came about, as far as I can tell, as a reaction to the Industrial Revolution and the continuing alienation of humans from the natural world; equally, it has gained much of its vigor from a dissatisfaction with the patriarchal traditions of the Abrahamic religions.
If modern life has alienated humanity from the world and forced us into unhealthy and unjust relationships with one another, then Wicca seeks to restore the connections that are central to the well-being of both the planet and ourselves.
For some Wiccans, this process may be as simple on a personal level as making time to meditate outdoors; for others, it’s a grand critique of life under global capitalism. Wicca attempts to restore the essential magick of life on Mother Earth.
10. Wiccans have holidays besides Samhain, you know.The traditional Wiccan calendar, the Wheel of the Year, features eight sabbats, of which Samhain is only one. These sabbats include the equinoxes and the solstices, plus the festivals of Imbolc (February 1), Beltaine (May 1), and Lughnasadh (August 1).
In addition to that, most Wiccans observe a monthly ritual at the Full Moon and some also meet on the New Moon. All of that is before we take into account the Pagan Festival Season, which, for the Pagans who attend, often becomes a holiday just as sacred as any of the others.
Although Samhain is usually thought of as the most holy night of the Wiccan year, we’re happy to talk about any of the others as well — the Witches come out every night, not just on Halloween.

Gunny
10-30-2015, 08:20 PM
If any are interested, I found this presentation to be a useful summary of some aspects of my faith that may make it more understandable for those outside.




http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2015/10/30/10-things-i-wish-everyone-knew-about-wicca/38007

I had the good fortune of being born into Wicca. That’s an unusual situation: the vast majority of Wiccans — including my parents, whose parents were various sorts of Low Protestant — converted from other religions. The Halloween season invites many questions from people outside of Wicca about the nature of our religion. Some of those questions are things that even I didn’t have a good answer for, despite having been involved with Wicca since the day I was born. With that in mind, here are 10 things about Wicca I wish more people knew.
1. “Wicca” means different things to different people.

Wicca has no central authority to dictate the shape of the religion. We have traditions, certainly, but those traditions vary widely between groups and individual practitioners. As a result, generalizations about the religion — “this is what Wiccans believe” — are hard, if not impossible, to make. Some things remain constant, but nothing I write here is likely to apply to 100 percent of Wiccans.
Widely cited “universal” Wiccan beliefs, such as the Witches Rede — “Do what thou wilt an it harm none” — and the Threefold Law — “whatever you do shall be returned to you three times over” — were never even mentioned in my home growing up.
I’m reminded of Robert Anton Wilson’s tremendously helpful term “sumbunall” — that is, some, but not all. Feel free to insert “sumbunall” liberally throughout the rest of this article.
2. All Wiccans are Pagan, but not all Pagans are Wiccan.

Although Wicca is the most widely known of the Neo-Pagan religions, it’s not the only one. These religions are often lumped together by people within and without the Pagan community, but there are important differences between Wicca and other faiths, such as Heathenry and Druidry.
These religions can have different calendars, theologies, and ritual forms. One of the debates happening in the Pagan world right now, in fact, is figuring out the most equitable way to represent multiple forms of Paganism at major public events without giving undue attention to Wiccan practices.
3. Wiccans have diverse views of theology, even within their own communities.

So what do Wiccans believe? That’s another question with many potential answers. The usual answer is that Wiccans believe in a God and Goddess who manifest in the form of the deities familiar to us from mythology and tradition. But the exact nature of those entities is a matter of personal interpretation.
Some Wiccans believe in the supernatural reality of divinity, while others may view the God and Goddess as archetypal forces within the human mind. The Goddess is frequently identified with the Earth itself (or herself!), and the God with the sun.
There has also been pushback from some queer Wiccans regarding this binary model of God and Goddess, which can be seen as alienating to people who don’t fit into Western society’s gender norms. Even this most basic aspect of Wiccan theology is subject to evolve.
4. Wiccans approach ritual as a creative art form.

In my family coven, every ritual is unique. We write an entirely new script for every holy day. My ritual partner and I not long ago completed a cycle of all the major holidays, or sabbats, in which we adopted a different mythology for each one, for example.
At major Pagan festivals, there are Wiccans who take great pleasure in presenting public rituals that play with the form of our ceremonies — I have seen a ritual that used only occult material available in the nineteenth century for its text and a ritual that used a stand-up comedy routine in place of the liturgy.
A few features characterize the standard Wiccan ritual — an invocation of the elements, for example — but one of the great joys of Wicca is seeing how our fellows adapt the form to their own individual purposes.
5. Even though Wicca is a young religion, it still has deeply held traditions.

Wicca is a creation of the twentieth century, more or less, although it follows from developments that had been taking place in the United Kingdom for many years before it was “officially” introduced to the broader world by Gerald Gardner in 1954.
Most Wiccans no longer believe in the famous Margaret Murray “witch-cult theory,” which suggested that Wicca was a belief system handed down in secret since the Paleolithic era. That’s not to say, however, that Wicca lacks rich traditions that have been handed down over the course of decades. Some of these practices may exist primarily within one group’s memory: at my family’s Samhain (Halloween) celebrations, for example, our rituals have included a moment where we speak the names of our dead as far back as I can remember. Eventually, these practices come to form the unique identity of an individual Wiccan group.
6. Some Wiccans belong to covens; others don’t.

Wicca was originally conceived of as a coven-based, initiatory religion in which prospective Wiccans had to undergo a vetting process and then be inducted into a coven through a special ritual. This initiatory tradition is still alive and vibrant today, and many covens can trace their histories back to major figures in Wiccan history, such as Gardner or Gwyddion Pendderwen.
But most Wiccans today are, to use the term of art, “solitary practitioners” who worship without groups and without initiation into a lineage. These solitary Wiccans study their religion through books and discussion with other Pagans, a process that has become much easier since the internet became widely available. Both the initiated and the solitary practitioners are “true” Wiccans, although the way their worship looks may vary dramatically.
7. Pretty much no popular depiction of Wicca has come close to being accurate.

This probably comes as no surprise to anyone who thinks about religion seriously, but even today there are few pop culture images of Wicca that bear any real resemblance to the religion as it is practiced. While most Wiccans believe in magick on some level, our magick doesn’t resemble the fantastic portrayals seen in The Craft or Witches of East End. (Ours is much more dangerous!)
That’s not to say that Wiccans don’t enjoy these works — on the contrary, I know quite a few Wiccans who were ardent followers of American Horror Story: Coven — but pop-culture Wicca is even less dependable than pop-culture Catholicism.
8. Wiccans tend to be eclectic, for better or for worse.

Wicca, in contrast to many of the other Pagan religions, does not usually limit itself to one set of gods. As an example, while Heathenry, by definition, only includes the Germanic deities, Wiccans often include gods from many different pantheons on their altars, and include ritual practices from an equally large number of religious traditions.
For the individual practitioner, this eclectic approach to religion means that every Wiccan can interact with the divinities and practices that speak most powerfully to them; however, it can also lead to a shallow, or even offensive, understanding of the beliefs held in other religions.
9. Wiccans seek to “re-enchant the world.”

This phrase, “re-enchanting the world,” is one that I admittedly have heard used only recently, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. Wicca came about, as far as I can tell, as a reaction to the Industrial Revolution and the continuing alienation of humans from the natural world; equally, it has gained much of its vigor from a dissatisfaction with the patriarchal traditions of the Abrahamic religions.
If modern life has alienated humanity from the world and forced us into unhealthy and unjust relationships with one another, then Wicca seeks to restore the connections that are central to the well-being of both the planet and ourselves.
For some Wiccans, this process may be as simple on a personal level as making time to meditate outdoors; for others, it’s a grand critique of life under global capitalism. Wicca attempts to restore the essential magick of life on Mother Earth.
10. Wiccans have holidays besides Samhain, you know.

The traditional Wiccan calendar, the Wheel of the Year, features eight sabbats, of which Samhain is only one. These sabbats include the equinoxes and the solstices, plus the festivals of Imbolc (February 1), Beltaine (May 1), and Lughnasadh (August 1).
In addition to that, most Wiccans observe a monthly ritual at the Full Moon and some also meet on the New Moon. All of that is before we take into account the Pagan Festival Season, which, for the Pagans who attend, often becomes a holiday just as sacred as any of the others.
Although Samhain is usually thought of as the most holy night of the Wiccan year, we’re happy to talk about any of the others as well — the Witches come out every night, not just on Halloween.















You forgot that you ride around on brooms and turn people into toads and hover over your cauldron in the middle of the night. :laugh2:

WiccanLiberal
10-30-2015, 08:34 PM
Right now hovering over my TV watching the World Series.

Elessar
10-30-2015, 09:25 PM
I could not care less about your faith and religion. It matters not.

You are a decent and level-headed person. That is more important.

Gunny
10-30-2015, 11:38 PM
I could not care less about your faith and religion. It matters not.

You are a decent and level-headed person. That is more important.

Look at her choice of IDs though. I suspect she's around my age especially since her husband voted for Reagan. Our definition of liberal is not even close to the same as the current one. We were taught to live and let live. There are MANY paths to the top of the same mountain. And I'd give anyone a hand up.

And I agree. Being a good person is more important than doing something in the name of a religion. And WiccanLiberal, I got me a red onion. :)

WiccanLiberal
10-31-2015, 01:34 AM
Look at her choice of IDs though. I suspect she's around my age especially since her husband voted for Reagan. Our definition of liberal is not even close to the same as the current one. We were taught to live and let live. There are MANY paths to the top of the same mountain. And I'd give anyone a hand up.

And I agree. Being a good person is more important than doing something in the name of a religion. And WiccanLiberal, I got me a red onion. :)

I am actually a bit older than V4R - I'm a vintage '58

Gunny
10-31-2015, 08:52 AM
I am actually a bit older than V4R - I'm a vintage '58

I'm right on your heels. Running up on 56. You'll be celebrating the winter solstice on my b-day. :)

revelarts
11-05-2015, 08:18 AM
Wiccanliberal I appreciate the outline. Very interesting.
We have very different POVs on faith but i never want to mischaracterize anyones beliefs so I'm glad you've given a broad sketch of wicca.
Would you be Ok if i ask you a couple of clarification questions about the difference in Wicca vs "heathenry" and "paganism" and other types of pagan or occult groups?

WiccanLiberal
11-05-2015, 06:01 PM
Wiccanliberal I appreciate the outline. Very interesting.
We have very different POVs on faith but i never want to mischaracterize anyones beliefs so I'm glad you've given a broad sketch of wicca.
Would you be Ok if i ask you a couple of clarification questions about the difference in Wicca vs "heathenry" and "paganism" and other types of pagan or occult groups?
I am always OK with honest questions. I have had very enjoyable discussions about varying spiritual points of view with persons from all kinds of faith backgrounds. It is my personal belief that whatever road to spiritual fulfillment a person takes, if it influences them in a positive way, that is a good outcome. For example, you seem to me to be a person who 'walks their walk.' Your faith is evident in the way you interact with others. Rather than stating what you believe, you seem to live in a way that shows it.

Gunny
11-05-2015, 06:21 PM
Wiccanliberal I appreciate the outline. Very interesting.
We have very different POVs on faith but i never want to mischaracterize anyones beliefs so I'm glad you've given a broad sketch of wicca.
Would you be Ok if i ask you a couple of clarification questions about the difference in Wicca vs "heathenry" and "paganism" and other types of pagan or occult groups?

I already did. We've established she is green and flies a broom. :laugh:

Seriously. I'm just as interested.

I can tell you wiccans aren't heathens. Being pagain is a religion older than yours and it's based on the seasons. Calling them occult is like calling YOU occult. Why you got to be so judgmental of others?

Here's a clue for you ... pagans live with nature and Christians and Muslims just want to kill everyone and take over everything they own. DO the math. SO just WHO do you think the "heathens" are?

Elessar
11-05-2015, 06:26 PM
I'm right on your heels. Running up on 56. You'll be celebrating the winter solstice on my b-day. :)

I doubt I will see 56 again!:laugh:

Gunny
11-05-2015, 06:31 PM
I doubt I will see 56 again!:laugh:

I'll be seeing it once. December 21at. The next one won't be 56. :laugh:

Elessar
11-05-2015, 06:33 PM
I already did. We've established she is green and flies a broom. :laugh:

Calling them occult is like calling YOU occult. Why you got to be so judgmental of others?

Here's a clue for you ... pagans live with nature and Christians and Muslims just want to kill everyone and take over everything they own. DO the math. SO just WHO do you think the "heathens" are?

On target!

I was raised a Christian. I got away from an organized church because of
the two-faced ways they treated people. Elitist fools that on a Sunday would
preach behavior and demand to have families raised their way condemning
young folks for mistakes. Yet they seem to have loved their cocktail parties
in the Reverends Manse.

I rather believe that the Creator made the mountains and rivers. Man builds
temples, not the Creator.

Gunny
11-05-2015, 06:49 PM
On target!

I was raised a Christian. I got away from an organized church because of
the two-faced ways they treated people. Elitist fools that on a Sunday would
preach behavior and demand to have families raised their way condemning
young folks for mistakes. Yet they seem to have loved their cocktail parties
in the Reverends Manse.

I rather believe that the Creator made the mountains and rivers. Man builds
temples, not the Creator.

Rev ain't all that bright. I like wiccanliberal. First mistake. Her husband has a temper like mine. Second mistake since he posts here too. She probably slaps him upside the head and makes him not blow the place up. I. on the other hand am under no such restrictions.

Her thread. Want to discuss it? Go for it. Want to call her a heathen? We ain't gonna be friends.

Elessar
11-05-2015, 08:03 PM
Not going to argue at all.

As I said, she seems to be good people,
and I am fine with that.

Best to drop it.

Perianne
11-05-2015, 09:05 PM
I like Wiccan. We don't all have to agree with each others' religious feelings.

I think and hope that God looks at a person's heart and it is what is in your heart that will determine your afterlife.

WiccanLiberal
11-05-2015, 09:06 PM
Thanks for the defense Gunny. Heathen is just a term for a person who doesn't follow a widely held or locally accepted religion. It can be negative but with most folks I prefer to see questions as seeking information - at least initially. A person who finds out more about a given group, if they have any degree of empathy for their fellow humans, will be less likely to be use such terms. I respond to Witch or Wiccan and wear both proudly.

Gunny
11-05-2015, 09:28 PM
Thanks for the defense Gunny. Heathen is just a term for a person who doesn't follow a widely held or locally accepted religion. It can be negative but with most folks I prefer to see questions as seeking information - at least initially. A person who finds out more about a given group, if they have any degree of empathy for their fellow humans, will be less likely to be use such terms. I respond to Witch or Wiccan and wear both proudly.

Some people want to talk and not listen. Been around too long. I hope you know I call you a witch as a tease. And I WILL poke fun at you. I like you. End of story with me. The hub seems to have a temper like mine. I ain't worried about anything happening to you. Us being so nice n all when you piss us off. :laugh:

revelarts
11-05-2015, 11:12 PM
I am always OK with honest questions. I have had very enjoyable discussions about varying spiritual points of view with persons from all kinds of faith backgrounds. It is my personal belief that whatever road to spiritual fulfillment a person takes, if it influences them in a positive way, that is a good outcome. For example, you seem to me to be a person who 'walks their walk.' Your faith is evident in the way you interact with others. Rather than stating what you believe, you seem to live in a way that shows it.

WL Great, and thanks for the kind words i appreciate it. I'll try to live up to them... at least until Gunny rubs me the wrong way again with his next post.

And i agree with you that peoples various spiritual paths can move people to very positive actions and positive life choices. I guess my thing is from my understanding is that they don't all end well. But I believe God gives everyone the freedom to move in all directions and people are all on their own journeys and God is always there for us all no matter where we are on that trip.

But to my questions,
Ok the article mentions that there's no universal teaching that cover all Wicca.
whenever i read statements like that i automatically want to flip it to narrow it in the other direction.
So if there's no universal beliefs that cover all witches, are there things that can be said that they universally DON'T believe. For instances do they all reject strict monotheism and so you all practice or acknowledge polytheism?

the Article says Modern Wicca began in the 1950s so do Wiccans generally trace their origins back to that or do they really consider themselves part of something older?

The old Jews and some current Hindus practice animal sacrifice. Of course Jesus was a sacrifice who rose from the dead. Do moderns Wiccians all reject the idea of blood sacrifices, if not what types might some practice? And are those rituals of modern for ancient origin?

the article mentioned that "All Wiccans are Pagan, but not all Pagans are Wiccan"
OK If wiccans are so diverse what would really separate a Wicca from other pagans? couldn't a wicca practice
"Heathenry" and "Druidry" or whatever as well and still consider themselves Wicca? Another point said Wicca can worship any "god" including those of Heathenry so. uh yeah.

the article mention different calendars and rituals as the separators of various Pagan religions.
So then is the Wiccan calendar mainly universal among wiccans then? and it's a good marker if someone's REALLY a wiccan or no?

the article mentions Samhain as just one Wiccan high day. I've listened to some history on some of the early traditions of halloween. What is the most popular wiccan view on the history of their celebration of the day? is it based on what came from the 1950s wiccan or do you reference something else?

finally, and i guess this may a bit touchy, I'm not sure how to ask this without sounding flip when it just written out. But please it's a sincere question. the article over and over emphasizes the eclectic, chosen paths, diversity, adaptive, "some but not all". etc.. I mean it kind of seems like some people are making the religion up as they go along since there's no real universal standards or rituals, is that the case?

Gunny
11-05-2015, 11:28 PM
WL Great, and thanks for the kind words i appreciate it. I'll try to live up to them... at least until Gunny rubs me the wrong way again with his next post.

And i agree with you that peoples various spiritual paths can move people to very positive actions and positive life choices. I guess my thing is from my understanding is that they don't all end well. But I believe God gives everyone the freedom to move in all directions and people are all on their own journeys and God is always there for us all no matter where we are on that trip.

But to my questions,
Ok the article mentions that there's no universal teaching that cover all Wicca.
whenever i read statements like that i automatically want to flip it to narrow it in the other direction.
So if there's no universal beliefs that cover all witches, are there things that can be said that they universally DON'T believe. For instances do they all reject strict monotheism and so you all practice or acknowledge polytheism?

the Article says Modern Wicca began in the 1950s so do Wiccans generally trace their origins back to that or do they really consider themselves part of something older?

The old Jews and some current Hindus practice animal sacrifice. Of course Jesus was a sacrifice who rose from the dead. Do moderns Wiccians all reject the idea of blood sacrifices, if not what types might some practice? And are those rituals of modern for ancient origin?

the article mentioned that "All Wiccans are Pagan, but not all Pagans are Wiccan"
OK If wiccans are so diverse what would really separate a Wicca from other pagans? couldn't a wicca practice
"Heathenry" and "Druidry" or whatever as well and still consider themselves Wicca? Another point said Wicca can worship any "god" including those of Heathenry so. uh yeah.

the article mention different calendars and rituals as the separators of various Pagan religions.
So then is the Wiccan calendar mainly universal among wiccans then? and it's a good marker if someone's REALLY a wiccan or no?

the article mentions Samhain as just one Wiccan high day. I've listened to some history on some of the early traditions of halloween. What is the most popular wiccan view on the history of their celebration of the day? is it based on what came from the 1950s wiccan or do you reference something else?

finally, and i guess this may a bit touchy, I'm not sure how to ask this without sounding flip when it just written out. But please it's a sincere question. the article over and over emphasizes the eclectic, chosen paths, diversity, adaptive, "some but not all". etc.. I mean it kind of seems like some people are making the religion up as they go along since there's no real universal standards or rituals, is that the case?

Yeah and if you can't tell, pissed is a little short. You be nice to wiccan though and I won't jump through the screen and kill you.

The religion is older than yours by centuries,

And rev, dislike and disagree are two different things. I don't dislike you. You'd know if I did.

gabosaurus
11-05-2015, 11:46 PM
Are Wiccans a cult? Do you chop off people's heads?

revelarts
11-06-2015, 12:24 AM
Yeah and if you can't tell, pissed is a little short. You be nice to wiccan though and I won't jump through the screen and kill you.
The religion is older than yours by centuries,
And rev, dislike and disagree are two different things. I don't dislike you. You'd know if I did.

Gunny, uh, I'm a civilian how would you know if i was being nice or not, different worlds Gunny.:poke:
And why are you picking' on my religions age? that ain't nice.

Atheist piss on Christianity all the time. I don't get mad. I just try to talk to them. most stop talking to me after awhile though for some reason. go figure.

But I'm just asking for clarification from WL. I really don't know much about wicca. most of the times it's mentioned I hear what it's "not". Good to get some clarity.

Gunny
11-06-2015, 12:35 AM
Gunny, uh, I'm a civilian how would you know if i was being nice or not, different worlds Gunny.:poke:
And why are you picking' on my religions age? that ain't nice.

Atheist piss on Christianity all the time. I don't get mad. I just try to talk to them. most stop talking to me after awhile though for some reason. go figure.

But I'm just asking for clarification from WL. I really don't know much about wicca. most of the times it's mentioned I hear what it's "not". Good to get some clarity.

Not picking on your religion at all. I pick on you picking on someone else's.

revelarts
11-07-2015, 09:53 AM
I guess another question that comes to mind is do many/most Wiccas believe in an after life of some kind (spirits roaming the earth and/or into a heaven or hell)?
Or are they more into reincarnation type beliefs?
Or maybe believe that the souls diffuse or merge with universal force(s) or gods?
Or is this something Wiccas have such mixed views on that one can't say that any one of the above is more prevalent?

Gunny
11-07-2015, 10:14 AM
I guess another question that comes to mind is do many/most Wiccas believe in an after life of some kind (spirits roaming the earth and/or into a heaven or hell)?
Or are they more into reincarnation type beliefs?
Or maybe believe that the souls diffuse or merge with universal force(s) or gods?
Or is this something Wiccas have such mixed views on that one can't say that any one of the above is more prevalent?

Does it matter? If I recall correctly, everything about Wicca is about nature. They believe they go back to nature as part of a cycle of life.

So let me ask YOU ... do YOU think your God is the only god of a select few? Or maybe if he's God he's everyone's God? If God created the universe and Man, why would he create more non-Christians than Christians? Something for you to ponder. MY God is inclusive, not exclusive.

WiccanLiberal
11-07-2015, 10:25 AM
OK Rev has some good questions and I am not offended by them. I had a bit if a bad day yesterday. I had an allergic reaction at work - still not sure to what - and passed out when I got home from the benadryl. Fixed the reaction but the hangover, man! So I am just a bit behind today and all those questions deserve serious answers so it may be a bit before I get to them but I will. Got to get weekend chores done first.

Gunny
11-07-2015, 10:28 AM
OK Rev has some good questions and I am not offended by them. I had a bit if a bad day yesterday. I had an allergic reaction at work - still not sure to what - and passed out when I got home from the benadryl. Fixed the reaction but the hangover, man! So I am just a bit behind today and all those questions deserve serious answers so it may be a bit before I get to them but I will. Got to get weekend chores done first.

I just pic at rev cuz I can. :laugh2:

However, I DID ask HIM some questions I'd like to here his answers to.

revelarts
11-07-2015, 11:34 AM
Does it matter? yes.
I'm sure it does matter to them, and to it matters to me if i'm talking to someone who holds those views.
i don't want to assume they think something when they don't.



If I recall correctly, everything about Wicca is about nature. They believe they go back to nature as part of a cycle of life.
you may be right, i don't know.



So let me ask YOU ... do YOU think your God is the only god of a select few? Or maybe if he's God he's everyone's God? If God created the universe and Man, why would he create more non-Christians than Christians? Something for you to ponder. MY God is inclusive, not exclusive.
if you want to talk about my beliefs or if you want to outline your beliefs I'd be happy to ask you some questions as well Gunny. just because i can. :poke:
But I say lets start a different thread on that and not hijack WL's.

WiccanLiberal
11-07-2015, 06:16 PM
Rev asked :"Ok the article mentions that there's no universal teaching that cover all Wicca.
whenever i read statements like that i automatically want to flip it to narrow it in the other direction.
So if there's no universal beliefs that cover all witches, are there things that can be said that they universally DON'T believe. For instances do they all reject strict monotheism and so you all practice or acknowledge polytheism?

the Article says Modern Wicca began in the 1950s so do Wiccans generally trace their origins back to that or do they really consider themselves part of something older?"

Modern Wicca can trace it's origins to Gerald Gardner, an English witch. And witches whether male or female are called witches. Gardner around 1950 founded a tradition that publicly celebrated a religious path that had only just become legally allowed. England had only repealed it's anti-witchcraft statutes around that time. Gardnerian tradition asserts a connection to ancient Goddess worship going back to paleolithic times. It is also fairly ritualistic and structured. It requires initiation and has degrees of learning. Many of us now regard Gardnerian tradition as a good starting point but he got some things wrong. While there have always been witches and wise women and local folks who worshipped the Lord and Lady of the harvest, the connectons aren't as clear cut as he proposed. In America, the 70's were a time of great growth and interest in Goddess worship. Margot Adler and Starhawk wrote influential books around that time. As for universal truths. Not all of us are Gardnerian. I started out much more into ritual and structure, but real spiritual insight doesn't need that. I think the one thing we do all believe is that we are connected to and not just subject to the divine. We can influence the world around us through our practices. That we are inextricably linked to nature around us. And that what we do reverberates and comes back to us. We must always therefore act responsibly. We do not believe in a single deity. What is at work in the universe is a duality - light and dark, male and female. Depending on what your teachers or cultural influences are, a witch may choose to worship a specific individual or group of deities. I am of Irish and Northern European background. I see Brigid and Lugh. Increasingly as I age, I resonate with the older darker energies of the Morrigan.

WiccanLiberal
11-07-2015, 06:30 PM
Rev asked:"The old Jews and some current Hindus practice animal sacrifice. Of course Jesus was a sacrifice who rose from the dead. Do moderns Wiccians all reject the idea of blood sacrifices, if not what types might some practice? And are those rituals of modern for ancient origin?"

Blood sacrifice is not a thing Wiccans practice. Santeria and Voudoun sometimes do but they are very different from Wicca. My sacrifices are bread, wine, the products of the harvest and or my hands. Blood magic is different. Ever heard of the phrase blood brother? Many cultures have understood the power in that degree of commitment. If a working needs to be very powerful, the act of committing our own blood to it gives it that power. For example, if I carve a symbol for protection of my home into a candle and then trace a drop of my blood over it, and focus on that protection, that intent WILL be fulfilled. As for modern or not, I don't know about other practitioners. I write most of my own rituals. I think of my practice as being eclectic. I have in mind a path to follow in my life and adapt and use tools that help me.

WiccanLiberal
11-07-2015, 06:47 PM
Wiccans are Pagans but not all Pagans are Wiccan. Think: all Baptists are Christian but not all Christians are Baptists for this one. Pagan is derived from the late Latin for the peasants of the countryside who often followed a simple polytheistic nature worship. Neo Pagans now may follow a variety of paths including Asatru (a revival of the old Norse religion) and Druidry ( more closely connected to the Shamanistic nature religion of the old British Isles). In a modern technical world, I think the popularity of all the Neo Pagan pathways is an expression of a desire to reconnect with our own spirit and with true divinity. Many people seem to see little true spiritual growth in many of the mainstream religions. I was reared a Catholic. I do not resent or dislike that church. I merely found it had no answers for me and began to ask more deeply why my soul felt the lack. The answers I found that addressed my needs were in Wicca although I am a bit more eclectic. Wicca is something many people have heard of and is a little less startling than Witch.

WiccanLiberal
11-07-2015, 06:49 PM
Think that's where i break off this evening on that. Need to fix some supper and chill a bit. And while the topic is great, I think I need to tackle it in smaller chunks to do it justice.

WiccanLiberal
11-08-2015, 12:50 PM
Rev asked: "the article mention different calendars and rituals as the separators of various Pagan religions.
So then is the Wiccan calendar mainly universal among wiccans then? and it's a good marker if someone's REALLY a wiccan or no?

the article mentions Samhain as just one Wiccan high day. I've listened to some history on some of the early traditions of halloween. What is the most popular wiccan view on the history of their celebration of the day? is it based on what came from the 1950s wiccan or do you reference something else?

finally, and i guess this may a bit touchy, I'm not sure how to ask this without sounding flip when it just written out. But please it's a sincere question. the article over and over emphasizes the eclectic, chosen paths, diversity, adaptive, "some but not all". etc.. I mean it kind of seems like some people are making the religion up as they go along since there's no real universal standards or rituals, is that the case?"

The calendar is fairly universal. The Wheel of the Year governs our worship. Samhain, celebrated at the end of October is the end of one year. It is the last harvest festival. The narrative that goes with it says that the old God dies but we are left with the fruits of the harvest to keep us through the winter. It is a time when reflection and communication with our ancestors is focused on. The winter solstice or Yule is at around the 21st of December. It marks the shortest day of the year but after that the days begin to lengthen again. The God is reborn and the light returns. Around the beginning of February is Imbolc. It is the first spring festival and is a time for sorting seeds and planning your goals. The spring equinox is Ostara, loaded with symbolism of new life and honoring the Goddess aas the Maiden and the God as the horned hunter, both powerful symbols of the close relationship of the ancient cultures and nature. Then there is Beltaine. It is around the first of May and is just opposite Samhain if you view the cycle of holidays. It is a fire and fertility festival, a good time for handfastings. In the narrative of the Goddess it recounts the mating of the God and Goddess, ensuring the fertility of the Earth. Maypoles and other such symbols are old fertility customs. Next is the Summer Solstice or Litha. Symbolically, the Goddess is the Mother, full of life and the sun is at it's most powerful. Everything around us is full of life. Then comes Lammas usually around August 1. It s the first harvest festival. The grain is brought is so bread can sustain us. Then Mabon in September is the harvest if fruit. And the wheel comes around again to Samhain. Witches all honor the sabbats but may observe them in different ways.
As far as Halloween goes, the time of the year is associated with a number of festivals in different traditions honoring the dead. I have no problem with keeping my spiritual practice separate from my childlike enjoyment of the costumes and decorations. You should see my collection of Halloween Barbie dolls.
And as to your final question, maybe it has to do with the difference between revealed and natural religion. Revealed religion is any path that comes from a single source, a prophet etc. Judaism fits the bill with Moses as it's revelator. Natural religion relies on individual perception of the world around us as being evidence of the divine. Having a focused source, revealed religion has a series of traditions and writings that emphasize following only that tradition. Wiccan traditions are more inclusive of differences. So yes, some of it is "made up" as you say in that our traditions grow and change. The rite that I use to conduct a handfasting is different from anyone else's but incorporates imagery that is readily understood by any Wiccan. The theology and ritual I use is written down in my Book of Shadows. Other than that I use a lunar almanac and a few good books of Wiccan and Goddess related poetry and stories. My personal opinion is that my path works because I can adapt it to my circumstances. For other people, a more structured faith is comfortable. That is why I have always said my path is not for everyone. We should all find joy and comfort and a positive way of walking through this world and I applaud every person who pursues the path that helps them to do so.
Thanks for asking nicely. I may not pray as you do but I trust we can agree that we want the same good things for our world and those we care about.

Gunny
11-08-2015, 01:13 PM
yes.
I'm sure it does matter to them, and to it matters to me if i'm talking to someone who holds those views.
i don't want to assume they think something when they don't.


you may be right, i don't know.


if you want to talk about my beliefs or if you want to outline your beliefs I'd be happy to ask you some questions as well Gunny. just because i can. :poke:
But I say lets start a different thread on that and not hijack WL's.

I'm not Wiccan. I'm Southern Baptist. But I can read. Y'all don't practice what you preach. Far as I can see, Wiccan does. Never contradictory to her beliefs. She's never offensive to others. She has her beliefs.

The rest of y'all, to include two specific members who are here to do nothing but start crap, want to kill everything in the name of THEIR God. And all I got to say to tht is f*ck you. Try killing someone just once. And call yourself Christian or Muslim or what the f*ck ever. Do it in the name of a country.

MY God doesn't do that. We ALL have a place in Heaven. And if I had to choose between all you judgmental a-holes that wage war in the name of a religion and just living with nature ... you'd lose.

revelarts
11-08-2015, 02:57 PM
WL, thanks for the relies that helps bring some clarity.
if you could reply to the one about the after life I posted when you get a chance that'd be great too.

So please tell me if I correctly sum up your answers so far.

Wiccas are at base DUO-theistic but mostly practice polytheism,
Wiccas believe in being connected to nature not subject to it or any "gods".
Wiccas modern public "revival" or outing of sorts started in the 1950s but the practices and traditions go back into very ancient times. And change based on the practitioners personal experiences and inner leadings and the influences of other Wiccas.
Wiccas have various guide books and calendars that outline and guide them in various rituals, festivals, and understanding of "high days", "magic" (gods?)
Most Wiccans follow their calendar and agree on the general importance of the days and agree generally on what they represent.
Wiccans try to align their actions with nature as understood by their tradition.
Wiccans try to influence nature, the spirit world and daily events by various means to their and others benefit using various rituals of ancient, modern and personal origin.
Wiccans call on various gods and goddesses to accomplish their desires by various means but don't believe they are subject to them in anyway.
Most Wiccias don't use "blood magic" to try and accomplish their desires but recognize it as a legit form of "magic" in other pagan religions

please feel free to copy and paste and edit the above for me. But based on what you said that's what get.

I still have several questions, but i'll narrow it down to one just one general clarification if you don't mind.

you said that Christian and Jews rely upon revelation from a few. that's true. A few viewed as authoritative based on certain events and criteria that demonstrate their authority and trustworthiness.

And you mention that Wiccas don't do that so much but Wicca is more about what's reveled in nature and more "inclusive of differences" .I suppose I have a fair picture of what you mean when by that. But I guess my question is it seems Wicca does have some real boundaries with specific pagans gods, rituals and calendars that are pasted down. And in one reply you mention that Gardner in the 1950s "got some things wrong"
so how do you and other Wicca determine if he's wrong or right? Is it because you've read other more definitive histories on "right" goddess worship or that many feel he wasn't broad enough because others were left out. Or... I'm not being funny here... did other wiccans just get a sense from nature that he was off? Or was "wrong" a poor choice of words on your part? Maybe it was just OK for him but just not so much for others that really want to be seriously into Wicca?

anyway thanks for the info WL

revelarts
11-08-2015, 03:07 PM
I'm not Wiccan. I'm Southern Baptist. But I can read. Y'all don't practice what you preach. Far as I can see, Wiccan does. Never contradictory to her beliefs. She's never offensive to others. She has her beliefs.

The rest of y'all, to include two specific members who are here to do nothing but start crap, want to kill everything in the name of THEIR God. And all I got to say to tht is f*ck you. Try killing someone just once. And call yourself Christian or Muslim or what the f*ck ever. Do it in the name of a country.

MY God doesn't do that. We ALL have a place in Heaven. And if I had to choose between all you judgmental a-holes that wage war in the name of a religion and just living with nature ... you'd lose.

"...want to kill everything in the name of THIER God...."
not sure who your taking about, but i'm anti-war. I believe in war only in self defense.
I don't think we needed to fight WW2 if we'd just jailed a few of Hilter's U.S. suppliers and finanacers.

And it seems to me your the one who always threatening to kick people's A$$es just because you don't agree with what they say.
And are ready to take over countries for the greater good if a president just gives the word.

what's up with that?

Black Diamond
11-08-2015, 03:11 PM
"...want to kill everything in the name of THIER God...."
not sure who your taking about, but i'm anti-war. I believe in war only in self defense.
I don't think we needed to fight WW2 if we'd just jailed a few of Hilter's U.S. suppliers and finanacers.

And it seems to me your the one who always threatening to kick people's A$$es just because you don't agree with what they say.
And are ready to take over countries for the greater good if a president just gives the word.

what's up with that?
There's a difference between giving an opinion and piling on. And I hope you're not blaming Americans for Hitler's crimes. But it sounds like you are. People on the fringe draw a whole lot of foul. It's in the fringe's nature.

revelarts
11-08-2015, 03:17 PM
There's a difference between giving an opinion and piling on. And I hope you're not blaming Americans for Hitler's crimes. But it sounds like you are. People on the fringe draw a whole lot of foul. It's in the fringe's nature.

there were various well documented American financiers and suppliers to Hitler.
both Henry Ford of Ford Motors and Waston the head of IBM got the highest non-germany civilian awards from Hitler for their services to the NAZIs. There are several banks including Chase and Union in newyork that help Finance the rise of Hitler as well as the well known Swiss banks.
it's not fringe it's history.
that's the type of thing i'm talking about. I'm not sure what you thought i was trying to say.

Black Diamond
11-08-2015, 03:23 PM
there were various well documented American financiers and suppliers to Hitler.
both henry Ford and Of Ford Motors and Waston the head of IBM got the highest non-germany civilian awards from Hitler for there services to the NAZIs. There are several banks including Chase and Union in newyork that help Finance the rise of Hitler as well as the well known Swiss banks.
it's not fringe it's history.
that's the type of thing i'm talking about. I'm not sure what you thought i was trying to say.

You forgot to mention Prescott Bush. And history studies three things:

What happened
Why did it happen
Should it have happened

I don't think American financiers being the reason for Hitler's "success" would stand up to scrutiny in the history arena.

Gunny
11-08-2015, 03:26 PM
"...want to kill everything in the name of THIER God...."
not sure who your taking about, but i'm anti-war. I believe in war only in self defense.
I don't think we needed to fight WW2 if we'd just jailed a few of Hilter's U.S. suppliers and finanacers.

And it seems to me your the one who always threatening to kick people's A$$es just because you don't agree with what they say.
And are ready to take over countries for the greater good if a president just gives the word.

what's up with that?

You don't want to be sure about what I'm talking about is the actual answer.

Now if you want to play this, there are a couple of other threads on the topics. What you "think" and reality are a couple of different things.

revelarts
11-08-2015, 04:01 PM
You forgot to mention Prescott Bush. And history studies three things:

What happened
Why did it happen
Should it have happened

I don't think American financiers being the reason for Hitler's "success" would stand up to scrutiny in the history arena.
I didn't say financiers alone, I said Financiers and Suppliers.
But OK, can you tell me how Hilter could have re-armed Germany and won without outside money and supplies in the economically crippled Germany of the the 1920s-30s?

revelarts
11-08-2015, 04:02 PM
You don't want to be sure about what I'm talking about is the actual answer.
Now if you want to play this, there are a couple of other threads on the topics. What you "think" and reality are a couple of different things.

Sorry Gunny I don't understand any of that. I have no idea what your talking about.

Gunny
11-08-2015, 04:14 PM
Sorry Gunny I don't understand any of that. I have no idea what your talking about.

I understand it. Deflection is in the dictionary. Your statement would go with the pic.

WiccanLiberal
11-08-2015, 04:27 PM
WL, thanks for the relies that helps bring some clarity.
if you could reply to the one about the after life I posted when you get a chance that'd be great too.

So please tell me if I correctly sum up your answers so far.

Wiccas are at base DUO-theistic but mostly practice polytheism,
Wiccas believe in being connected to nature not subject to it or any "gods".
Wiccas modern public "revival" or outing of sorts started in the 1950s but the practices and traditions go back into very ancient times. And change based on the practitioners personal experiences and inner leadings and the influences of other Wiccas.
Wiccas have various guide books and calendars that outline and guide them in various rituals, festivals, and understanding of "high days", "magic" (gods?)
Most Wiccans follow their calendar and agree on the general importance of the days and agree generally on what they represent.
Wiccans try to align their actions with nature as understood by their tradition.
Wiccans try to influence nature, the spirit world and daily events by various means to their and others benefit using various rituals of ancient, modern and personal origin.
Wiccans call on various gods and goddesses to accomplish their desires by various means but don't believe they are subject to them in anyway.
Most Wiccias don't use "blood magic" to try and accomplish their desires but recognize it as a legit form of "magic" in other pagan religions

please feel free to copy and paste and edit the above for me. But based on what you said that's what get.

I still have several questions, but i'll narrow it down to one just one general clarification if you don't mind.

you said that Christian and Jews rely upon revelation from a few. that's true. A few viewed as authoritative based on certain events and criteria that demonstrate their authority and trustworthiness.

And you mention that Wiccas don't do that so much but Wicca is more about what's reveled in nature and more "inclusive of differences" .I suppose I have a fair picture of what you mean when by that. But I guess my question is it seems Wicca does have some real boundaries with specific pagans gods, rituals and calendars that are pasted down. And in one reply you mention that Gardner in the 1950s "got some things wrong"
so how do you and other Wicca determine if he's wrong or right? Is it because you've read other more definitive histories on "right" goddess worship or that many feel he wasn't broad enough because others were left out. Or... I'm not being funny here... did other wiccans just get a sense from nature that he was off? Or was "wrong" a poor choice of words on your part? Maybe it was just OK for him but just not so much for others that really want to be seriously into Wicca?

anyway thanks for the info WL


As for an afterlife. We are more concerned with acquiring knowledge and being in the moment. When it is our time, as with all things, we pass from this world but there is another. Many call it the Summerland. There is feasting and joy and rest there for as long as we need. But not forever. We move on to another life when we are ready to grow again. All things are part of life death and rebirth. That is the ultimate lesson.
As for my statement about Gardner, he was very definite about stating that his rebirth of modern witchcraft was the continuation of a millenia long tradition going back to neolithic Goddess worshippers. Anthropologists and archeologists have shown there is no basis for such a concrete connection. Personally I believe he was trying to make his teachings seem weightier by claiming such a long history. It doesn't mean there weren't men and women who believed as we do, just that we don't have any basis to know for sure how they practiced. It was certainly good timing for his statements. There was a huge positive reinforcement between the rise of feminism and the activism practiced by many modern covens.
As for your summation, I think it is a pretty fair listing. We owe a debt to the people who made Wicca a recognized path for modern people. But they were and are merely human as we are. My connection to the divine is just as valid as theirs is. So if my conscience and heart tells me the right, I trust that more than some other person. I am a child of the Goddess and that is all I need.
I guess I would have to say that the summary list you made is fairly valid. I would say that the polytheism is not so much about multiple gods as about recognizing that divinity can wear many faces.

I found this summary on another site. It may be more concise than what I have said.
While not exclusive to every single tradition, the following are some of the core tenets found in most Wiccan systems:


The Divine is present in nature, and so nature should be honored and respected. Everything from animals and plants to trees and rocks are elements of the sacred. You'll find that many practicing Wiccans are passionate about the environment (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/contemporaryissues/a/Environment.htm).
The idea of karma (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/MagicalTheory/fl/What-is-Karma.htm) and an afterlife is a valid one. What we do in this lifetime will be revisited upon us in the next. Part of this idea of a cosmic payback system is echoed in the Law of Threefold Return (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/wiccaandpaganismbasics/a/Rule_of_Three.htm).
Our ancestors should be spoken of with honor. Because it's not considered out of the ordinary to commune with the spirit world, many Wiccans feel that their ancestors are watching over them at all times.
The Divine has polarity -- both male and female. In most paths of Wicca, both a god and goddess are honored.
The Divine is present in all of us. We are all sacred beings, and interaction with the gods is not limited just to the priesthood (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/glossary/g/Priesthood.htm) or a select group of individuals.
Holidays (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/holidaysandcelebrations/a/2007_Calendar.htm) are based on the turning of the earth and the cycle of the seasons. In Wicca, eight major Sabbats (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/holidaysandcelebrations/Wiccan_and_Pagan_Holidays_and_Celebrations.htm) are celebrated, as well as monthly Esbats (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/glossary/g/Esbat.htm).
Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Personal responsiblity is the key. Whether magical or mundane, one must be willing to accept the consquences (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/faq/f/Rules_Magic.htm) -- either good or bad -- of their behaviour.
Harm none (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/recommendedreading/a/Wiccan_Rede.htm), or something like it. While there are a few different interpretation of what actually constitutes harm, most Wiccans follow the concept that no harm should intentionally be done to another individual.
Respect the beliefs of others. There's no Recruiting Club in Wicca (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/wiccaandpaganismbasics/a/WiccaRecruiting.htm), and the Wiccans are not out to preach at you, convert you, or prosetylize. Wiccan groups recognize that each individual must find their spiritual path on their own, without coercion. While a Wiccan may honor different gods than you do, they will always respect your right to believe differently.

revelarts
11-08-2015, 05:26 PM
As for an afterlife. We are more concerned with acquiring knowledge and being in the moment. When it is our time, as with all things, we pass from this world but there is another. Many call it the Summerland. There is feasting and joy and rest there for as long as we need. But not forever. We move on to another life when we are ready to grow again. All things are part of life death and rebirth. That is the ultimate lesson.
As for my statement about Gardner, he was very definite about stating that his rebirth of modern witchcraft was the continuation of a millenia long tradition going back to neolithic Goddess worshippers. Anthropologists and archeologists have shown there is no basis for such a concrete connection. Personally I believe he was trying to make his teachings seem weightier by claiming such a long history. It doesn't mean there weren't men and women who believed as we do, just that we don't have any basis to know for sure how they practiced. It was certainly good timing for his statements. There was a huge positive reinforcement between the rise of feminism and the activism practiced by many modern covens.
As for your summation, I think it is a pretty fair listing. We owe a debt to the people who made Wicca a recognized path for modern people. But they were and are merely human as we are. My connection to the divine is just as valid as theirs is. So if my conscience and heart tells me the right, I trust that more than some other person. I am a child of the Goddess and that is all I need.
I guess I would have to say that the summary list you made is fairly valid. I would say that the polytheism is not so much about multiple gods as about recognizing that divinity can wear many faces.

I found this summary on another site. It may be more concise than what I have said.
While not exclusive to every single tradition, the following are some of the core tenets found in most Wiccan systems:


The Divine is present in nature, and so nature should be honored and respected. Everything from animals and plants to trees and rocks are elements of the sacred. You'll find that many practicing Wiccans are passionate about the environment (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/contemporaryissues/a/Environment.htm).
The idea of karma (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/MagicalTheory/fl/What-is-Karma.htm) and an afterlife is a valid one. What we do in this lifetime will be revisited upon us in the next. Part of this idea of a cosmic payback system is echoed in the Law of Threefold Return (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/wiccaandpaganismbasics/a/Rule_of_Three.htm).
Our ancestors should be spoken of with honor. Because it's not considered out of the ordinary to commune with the spirit world, many Wiccans feel that their ancestors are watching over them at all times.
The Divine has polarity -- both male and female. In most paths of Wicca, both a god and goddess are honored.
The Divine is present in all of us. We are all sacred beings, and interaction with the gods is not limited just to the priesthood (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/glossary/g/Priesthood.htm) or a select group of individuals.
Holidays (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/holidaysandcelebrations/a/2007_Calendar.htm) are based on the turning of the earth and the cycle of the seasons. In Wicca, eight major Sabbats (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/holidaysandcelebrations/Wiccan_and_Pagan_Holidays_and_Celebrations.htm) are celebrated, as well as monthly Esbats (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/glossary/g/Esbat.htm).
Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Personal responsiblity is the key. Whether magical or mundane, one must be willing to accept the consquences (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/faq/f/Rules_Magic.htm) -- either good or bad -- of their behaviour.
Harm none (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/recommendedreading/a/Wiccan_Rede.htm), or something like it. While there are a few different interpretation of what actually constitutes harm, most Wiccans follow the concept that no harm should intentionally be done to another individual.
Respect the beliefs of others. There's no Recruiting Club in Wicca (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/wiccaandpaganismbasics/a/WiccaRecruiting.htm), and the Wiccans are not out to preach at you, convert you, or prosetylize. Wiccan groups recognize that each individual must find their spiritual path on their own, without coercion. While a Wiccan may honor different gods than you do, they will always respect your right to believe differently.



thanks again for the info. That does help clarify Wicca a lot for me.

As you know we're on very different pages, but I just want you to know i wish nothing but the best for you even though i strongly disagree with your chosen spiritual path.
One interesting difference Wicca v Christianity is that Jesus commands that we preach and proselytize, but only God can convert anyone.

But i'll save my proselytizing for another time and another thread. :D
all the best.

WiccanLiberal
11-08-2015, 05:34 PM
thanks again for the info. That does help clarify Wicca a lot for me.

As you know we're on very different pages, but I just want you to know i wish nothing but the best for you even though i strongly disagree with your chosen spiritual path.
One interesting difference Wicca v Christianity is that Jesus commands that we preach and proselytize, but only God can convert anyone.

But i'll save my proselytizing for another time and another thread. :D
all the best.

Nothing wrong with disagreeing so long as we can be civil. Exchanging information never hurt anyone. I applaud you for seeking to know more even though you disagree. Glad to be of help.

Gunny
11-08-2015, 08:07 PM
Nothing wrong with disagreeing so long as we can be civil. Exchanging information never hurt anyone. I applaud you for seeking to know more even though you disagree. Glad to be of help.

Don't get me wrong. I read what Rev posts. Unless it's a page of crap someone else wrote. He doesn't bother me in the least.

From MY perspective, I've seen babies that were burned alive because of their parents' religion. People need to quit using religion as an excuse. Doesn't matter which religion.

Caliban
11-08-2015, 08:23 PM
Wicca is a 20th century ersatz 'religion' cobbled together from the work of anthropologists and poets like Robert Graves.

It has no connection to any 'ancient tradition'. Being made up, it's very unthreatening and bland. 'Powers of nature' and cuddly stuff like that.

WiccanLiberal
11-08-2015, 08:30 PM
and ignored for the irrelevance it is. Regardless of the source material and origins, my faith is meaningful to me.

Gunny
11-08-2015, 08:56 PM
and ignored for the irrelevance it is. Regardless of the source material and origins, my faith is meaningful to me.

What we have her is a couple of 3 idiots from another board that couldn't get out of a wet paper bag. They're here solely to disrupt. They have nothing to offer but insults. And gues whose last f-ing nerve these losers are getting on ....

Black Diamond
11-08-2015, 09:03 PM
What we have her is a couple of 3 idiots from another board that couldn't get out of a wet paper bag. They're here solely to disrupt. They have nothing to offer but insults. And gues whose last f-ing nerve these losers are getting on ....

is Caliban glocks Belle?

Gunny
11-08-2015, 10:23 PM
is Caliban glocks Belle?


Nope. Both hate me because they were on a board I ran and I made them follow the rules. Their idea of debate is being assholes and attacking people. If you got a question about that, look at their posts. In 2 days. All they are doing is trying to disrupt the board.

Caliban
11-08-2015, 10:52 PM
What? Was that directed at me?

I don't hate you!

I don't think i was on a board you ran, as far as i can remember, Gunny. I could be wrong about that, however.

I'm certainly not trying to insult or be disruptive! How was i doing that?

Gunny
11-08-2015, 11:17 PM
What? Was that directed at me?

I don't hate you!

I don't think i was on a board you ran, as far as i can remember, Gunny. I could be wrong about that, however.

I'm certainly not trying to insult or be disruptive! How was i doing that?

I'll take you at your word. Don't prove yourself wrong.

Gunny
11-09-2015, 01:15 AM
My religion is actually Japanese. I liked theirs better than the way I was raised.

The cherry blossoms are ALWAYS perfect.

Perianne
11-09-2015, 02:16 AM
is Caliban glocks Belle?

No. Caliban is my longtime friend with whom I speak every day. I have been pestering him to post here.

Voted4Reagan
11-09-2015, 07:51 AM
Wicca is a 20th century ersatz 'religion' cobbled together from the work of anthropologists and poets like Robert Graves.

It has no connection to any 'ancient tradition'. Being made up, it's very unthreatening and bland. 'Powers of nature' and cuddly stuff like that.

So you start posting again after 6 months and attack the one person on the board that has almost universal respect here... the person that has never lost her temper and always talks to everyone with courtesy and respect..

Do you feel like a big man now for slamming her faith? Do you?

Caliban
11-09-2015, 08:55 AM
So you start posting again after 6 months and attack the one person on the board that has almost universal respect here... the person that has never lost her temper and always talks to everyone with courtesy and respect..

Do you feel like a big man now for slamming her faith? Do you?

I don't see here how i've 'attacked a person'. I don't think i've mentioned the person in my post.

I pretty much gave the prevailing scholarly consensus in Wicca, that's about all, which i happen to share. It's pretty much a silly, shallow countercultural fad.

I'm entitled to my view on this matter, i think.

But anyway, this strikes me a pretty much a closed, private board of people that have known each other for a long time, so i think i should bow out here.

Perianne
11-09-2015, 10:20 AM
I don't see here how i've 'attacked a person'. I don't think i've mentioned the person in my post.

I pretty much gave the prevailing scholarly consensus in Wicca, that's about all, which i happen to share. It's pretty much a silly, shallow countercultural fad.

I'm entitled to my view on this matter, i think.

But anyway, this strikes me a pretty much a closed, private board of people that have known each other for a long time, so i think i should bow out here.

Caliban, I'm sorry for asking you to come back. I didn't see any attack either and you are entitled to your view on the matter.

Gunny
11-09-2015, 11:04 AM
Caliban, I'm sorry for asking you to come back. I didn't see any attack either and you are entitled to your view on the matter.

Don't be sorry. He made a reputation LONG before you. What people do with their UserIDs comes back on them. Look at me, for example. I have a bitch and a dickhead from YEARS ago screwing up the entire board just to attack ME. If I knew I was THAT important I'd run for President.

I said what I said. He and I used to not get along. People change. Some, anyway. I'm not here to fight. Doesn't mean I won't. Maybe timing is a coincidence.

WiccanLiberal
11-09-2015, 02:07 PM
Perianne, out of respect for you I will address this. I started the thread as a means to give a sort of comparative religion 101 view for information since it seems many here aren't aware of what I am about. Rev had a bunch of questions and he was respectful even though he and I will never agree. Caliban entered a previously civil discussion with a judgmental and frankly rude comment. If this person cannot deal in civil discourse I cannot give any credence to his opinion. If he had bothered to read the whole thread it would have been obvious I had already acknowledged the questions about historical antecedents. His comment was disruptive and unnecessary. He may be entitled to his view but he should be aware that he is making a very poor impression.

Perianne
11-09-2015, 02:33 PM
Perianne, out of respect for you I will address this. I started the thread as a means to give a sort of comparative religion 101 view for information since it seems many here aren't aware of what I am about. Rev had a bunch of questions and he was respectful even though he and I will never agree. Caliban entered a previously civil discussion with a judgmental and frankly rude comment. If this person cannot deal in civil discourse I cannot give any credence to his opinion. If he had bothered to read the whole thread it would have been obvious I had already acknowledged the questions about historical antecedents. His comment was disruptive and unnecessary. He may be entitled to his view but he should be aware that he is making a very poor impression.

Thanks for the post.

I posted my comment quickly and shouldn't have. I love Caliban as a friend, but I admit he comes across harsh sometimes on forums. I have told him that harsh, frank judgements are better left to one's self sometimes. He has hurt my feelings before and I have told him so. He now knows me and knows to think before speaking.

I am not a particularly religious person and I don't care what anyone believes as long as their religion doesn't harm others. And it seems your beliefs do not harm anyone, so I wish you well in your beliefs.

Anyway, I didn't mean to offend you and I know that he didn't mean to offend either, but it does come across that way.

Gunny
11-09-2015, 03:31 PM
Thanks for the post.

I posted my comment quickly and shouldn't have. I love Caliban as a friend, but I admit he comes across harsh sometimes on forums. I have told him that harsh, frank judgements are better left to one's self sometimes. He has hurt my feelings before and I have told him so. He now knows me and knows to think before speaking.

I am not a particularly religious person and I don't care what anyone believes as long as their religion doesn't harm others. And it seems your beliefs do not harm anyone, so I wish you well in your beliefs.

Anyway, I didn't mean to offend you and I know that he didn't mean to offend either, but it does come across that way.

And that kind of was MY point. There's no pile on here. Caliban is a man. He can act like one and take what he dishes out. I don't dislike him. Y'all need to quit taking this crap so personally. It's a message board. If I wanted to agree with everyone I can find a country bar.

I'm not wiccan. Probably not going to be tomorrow. But I like listening to different people who have something to say that isn't a fuss contest. I'm interested in what Wiccan has to say about she believes. Not arguing with those that judge.

Voted4Reagan
11-09-2015, 05:59 PM
Wicca is a 20th century ersatz 'religion' cobbled together from the work of anthropologists and poets like Robert Graves.

It has no connection to any 'ancient tradition'. Being made up, it's very unthreatening and bland. 'Powers of nature' and cuddly stuff like that.

Lets dissect the statement above....


"Wicca is a 20th century ersatz 'religion"

first... look at the choice of the word "Ersatz", and the Definition:

er·satz
ˈerˌzäts,ˈerˌsäts/
adjective



(of a product) made or used as a substitute, typically an inferior one, for something else.




So right away Caliban did indeed make an attack by putting own the religion of WiccanLiberal as being according to the definition... INFERIOR.

I am sorry, bout calling someones choice of faith INFERIOR is an attack... No way around it there in no alternative meaning for the word ERSATZ.

moving onward.....

"It has no connection to any 'ancient tradition"

Actually the basis for Wicca is found in many faiths that predate Christianity. Celtic Druidic beliefs go back thousands of years, practices of herbal-ism and other natural practices were around long before the birth of Christ. I would say that qualifies as a connection to ancient traditions.

moving forward again...

"Being made up,"Another attack... Telling someone their religion is an Imaginary construct is most definitely an attack.

Moving on again.....

'Powers of nature' and cuddly stuff like that.

Wow... the statement alone reeks of condescension. Would Caliban be so kind as to explain the context of "Cuddly Stuff".

and Nature does have powers.... Digitalis, aspirin, Blood from Horseshoe Crabs, Bee Venom, are all found in Nature or derived from it, all have medicinal properties... as are thousands of other healing agents. Penicillin is a great example as well...


Perrianne, I am sorry, your friend made a direct and pointed attack against someone... His own words, context and statements bear it out.

He owes WiccanLiberal an apology, she never once did anything to warrant his posting that.

Voted4Reagan
11-09-2015, 06:07 PM
My religion is actually Japanese. I liked theirs better than the way I was raised.

The cherry blossoms are ALWAYS perfect.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqtbIC5lKfc