GOP / CNN Debate

[NightTrain]

Some pretty animated debate!

"The Wall just got ten feet higher!" :laugh:

Cruz not doing so well.

[Abbey Marie]

Some pretty animated debate!

"The Wall just got ten feet higher!" :laugh:

Cruz not doing so well.

That was an Lol statement :laugh2:

[Kathianne]

That was an Lol statement :laugh2:

He really did say that. 10 feet higher, I think because of Fox. Too bad this Rubio didn't come to debates back when, he's hot.

[NightTrain]

North Korea is probably freaking out right now with Kasich's speech... mass executions at dawn.

[NightTrain]

Carson : "Can somebody attack me, please?" :laugh2::laugh2:

[aboutime]

Hillary, and Bernie are probably Cheering along with Debbie Wasserman Shultz right now.

They are celebrating the way the REPUBLICANS are destroying each other, and pushing more IGNORANT People to vote Democrat.

[NightTrain]

Hillary, and Bernie are probably Cheering along with Debbie Wasserman Shultz right now.

They are celebrating the way the REPUBLICANS are destroying each other, and pushing more IGNORANT People to vote Democrat.


I don't think so... they're very animated and there's some very good issues being discussed, for once!

[LongTermGuy]

http://www.bookwormroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Cruz-Rubio-Trump.png


`DEBATE POLL: WHO DO YOU THINK WON TONIGHT’S CNN TELEMUNDO REPUBLICAN DEBATE? (http://therightscoop.com/debate-poll-who-do-you-think-won-tonights-cnn-telemundo-republican-debate/)`


http://therightscoop.com/debate-poll-who-do-you-think-won-tonights-cnn-telemundo-republican-debate/#ixzz41FIInuXu

[Black Diamond]

Robertscare. That was good.

[Black Diamond]

I'm gonna buck the trend and say Cruz won. Trump had a rough night IMO.

[Black Diamond]

I'm gonna buck the trend and say Cruz won. Trump had a rough night IMO.

Wow. 70% disagree with me thoroughly.
http://time.com/4238254/republican-debate-tenth-poll-survey/

[LongTermGuy]

........And All the Guns were Blazing....


:coffee:Good...morning ....
........................................."My mistake....4 Coffins "


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-G783eAhXE

[Black Diamond]

........And All the Guns were Blazing....


:coffee:Good...morning ....
........................................."My mistake....4 Coffins "


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-G783eAhXE

Yeah. The poll tells me trump is unstoppable. There is no way he won that debate.

[NightTrain]

Wow. 70% disagree with me thoroughly.
http://time.com/4238254/republican-debate-tenth-poll-survey/

Yeah, I thought he did well... but I wouldn't have guessed 70% territory.

The funny thing is that all the pundits are now at 180° from 8 months ago - "no way in hell!" to "inevitable".

He can still screw up, but I don't think he will.

[Black Diamond]

Yeah, I thought he did well... but I wouldn't have guessed 70% territory.

The funny thing is that all the pundits are now at 180° from 8 months ago - "no way in hell!" to "inevitable".

He can still screw up, but I don't think he will.

I don't think he will screw up either. And there are still too many candidates taking votes away from one another..

Assuming it's not too late for a one on one matchup.

[NightTrain]

I don't think he will screw up either. And there are still too many candidates taking votes away from one another..

Assuming it's not too late for a one on one matchup.

If this were suddenly a 2-man race, I can see where Trump might have a challenge. But there's at least 3 that will be in it to the end.

Another thing is that I think many Cruz supporters would shift to Trump's camp if he suddenly dropped - but he's not going to drop. He'll fight even if there's a 1% chance of pulling it off.


Even though the others are no where near where they need to be, I still admire their fighting spirit. The odds are looking more and more bleak, but that won't deter them. We need more fighters like that in positions of power, instead of rolling over. Jeb dropping out was the smart thing, but it showed he has no heart - at least not on the others' level.

[Black Diamond]

If this were suddenly a 2-man race, I can see where Trump might have a challenge. But there's at least 3 that will be in it to the end.

Another thing is that I think many Cruz supporters would shift to Trump's camp if he suddenly dropped - but he's not going to drop. He'll fight even if there's a 1% chance of pulling it off.


Even though the others are no where near where they need to be, I still admire their fighting spirit. The odds are looking more and more bleak, but that won't deter them. We need more fighters like that in positions of power, instead of rolling over. Jeb dropping out was the smart thing, but it showed he has no heart - at least not on the others' level.

I totally agree re Cruz. The anti-establishment folks supporting him would flock go trump. I think Cruz has the best chance at beating Donald, but I have my doubts on how he might do in the General.

[Kathianne]

If this were suddenly a 2-man race, I can see where Trump might have a challenge. But there's at least 3 that will be in it to the end.

Another thing is that I think many Cruz supporters would shift to Trump's camp if he suddenly dropped - but he's not going to drop. He'll fight even if there's a 1% chance of pulling it off.


Even though the others are no where near where they need to be, I still admire their fighting spirit. The odds are looking more and more bleak, but that won't deter them. We need more fighters like that in positions of power, instead of rolling over. Jeb dropping out was the smart thing, but it showed he has no heart - at least not on the others' level.

On the face of it, I agree with the first two paragraphs. One takeaway from last night though, what IF Cruz and Rubio really have decided to let it go to a two man campaign, one of them dropping out? Right now it looks like that would be Cruz, but that may be premature, due to Cruz/Trump appeal to many of the same. Last night Rubio went up significantly in perception and he's quite young. Cruz basically acted as the sharp knife to Rubio's hammer. Rubio's attacks were on the mark, Cruz brought them home. This played out with Blitzer actually repeatedly taking the attacks back, by going to 'safe zones' of Carson/Kasich when it got too hot.

Bush didn't look weak by dropping out, he looked like someone facing reality and doing what was right for the party/country. Carson and Kasich look vain, something I didn't think possible for Carson.

If Rubio should drop and he and many of the other also rans came out for Cruz, bringing their 'insignificant' endorsements and money with them, there might be a chance for a different outcome. I don't know that it was for nothing that the elder Bush members were in audience last night.

[NightTrain]

On the face of it, I agree with the first two paragraphs. One takeaway from last night though, what IF Cruz and Rubio really have decided to let it go to a two man campaign, one of them dropping out? Right now it looks like that would be Cruz, but that may be premature, due to Cruz/Trump appeal to many of the same. Last night Rubio went up significantly in perception and he's quite young. Cruz basically acted as the sharp knife to Rubio's hammer. Rubio's attacks were on the mark, Cruz brought them home. This played out with Blitzer actually repeatedly taking the attacks back, by going to 'safe zones' of Carson/Kasich when it got too hot.

Bush didn't look weak by dropping out, he looked like someone facing reality and doing what was right for the party/country. Carson and Kasich look vain, something I didn't think possible for Carson.

If Rubio should drop and he and many of the other also rans came out for Cruz, bringing their 'insignificant' endorsements and money with them, there might be a chance for a different outcome. I don't know that it was for nothing that the elder Bush members were in audience last night.

I noticed Wolf doing that as well. A couple of times he had to do that because the big 3 were brawling and wouldn't be silenced.

I don't think that Dubya would have dropped out, if he were in Jeb's position... but that's neither here nor there, he wouldn't have allowed himself to be in that poor position in the first place, IMO. They're brothers, but GW has a lot more fire than Jeb does.

To clarify : about the only way this race is going to change now is if Rubio drops out and his supporters flock to Cruz en masse. I just don't see that happening on either count.

[Kathianne]

I noticed Wolf doing that as well. A couple of times he had to do that because the big 3 were brawling and wouldn't be silenced.

I don't think that Dubya would have dropped out, if he were in Jeb's position... but that's neither here nor there, he wouldn't have allowed himself to be in that poor position in the first place, IMO. They're brothers, but GW has a lot more fire than Jeb does.

To clarify : about the only way this race is going to change now is if Rubio drops out and his supporters flock to Cruz en masse. I just don't see that happening on either count.
Right now, I agree that it's difficult to see either dropping out, especially Rubio, I just heard he called Trump a 'con man' this morning. However, for the reasons I mentioned and that if he did, his star is rising-when he was already a rising star. We'll see, he's said he will not return to the Senate, he doesn't like it. However if for a few years he makes some real money, gets back in FL politics, he'd be in a good place in even 16 years.

[Kathianne]

Right now, I agree that it's difficult to see either dropping out, especially Rubio, I just heard he called Trump a 'con man' this morning. However, for the reasons I mentioned and that if he did, his star is rising-when he was already a rising star. We'll see, he's said he will not return to the Senate, he doesn't like it. However if for a few years he makes some real money, gets back in FL politics, he'd be in a good place in even 16 years.

There's also a chance that Cruz could drop out, yes some of his supporters would go to Trump, but some wouldn't for the reason that Carson's wouldn't go to Cruz-the attacks that came from Cruz.

Then there's the independents/moderates that would gravitate to Rubio, naturally.

What would Cruz gain? Taking one for the 'team' something no one thought he'd do. He could honestly say that while he disagrees with much of the GOP, the alternative is unacceptable. He would gain time to appeal to those he just isn't connecting with this time around. In other words, he'd have time to find why Trump and not himself gained so many evangelicals and self-described conservatives.

[Abbey Marie]

I was interested to hear the Hispanic mod say polls show Hispanics won't vote for Trump. That is one of the big reasons I like Rubio- I believe they will vote for him.

Also, Trump's schoolyard tactic of labeling an opponent with a childish derogatory term doesn't sit well with me. Jeb is low energy, Cruz is the biggest liar he's ever seen, Rubio sweats, lol.

[NightTrain]

I was interested to hear the Hispanic mod say polls show Hispanics won't vote for Trump. That is one of the big reasons I like Rubio- I believe they will vote for him.


Except Nevada showed that Hispanics do vote for Trump... I was surprised to hear her say that. But the company that signs her paycheck is definitely not in Trump's corner, to say the least.


According to CNN entrance polls, among Latino Republican voters in the Silver State, John Kasich got 4 percent, Ted Cruz 18 percent, and Marco Rubio 29 percent. Trump got an astounding 44 percent.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/25/yes-donald-trump-won-latinos-over-marco-rubio-and-ted-cruz-here-s-why.html

The media is still trying to push the no-Latino idea, but it's not holding water.

And I suspect that the reason is because your average Latino, immigrant or not, is just as offended as the rest of us over the Illegals situation. I've talked to a couple of immigrants here in AK about it, and they're more pissed than anyone that they did it the right way, which took considerable effort, and then there's a few million that cheated while there's serious talk about letting them slide.

Both of these women are now legal citizens, one is from the Philippines and the other from Thailand.

[jimnyc]

I was interested to hear the Hispanic mod say polls show Hispanics won't vote for Trump. That is one of the big reasons I like Rubio- I believe they will vote for him.

Also, Trump's schoolyard tactic of labeling an opponent with a childish derogatory term doesn't sit well with me. Jen is low energy, Cruz is the biggest liar he's ever seen, Rubio sweats, lol.

I believe Trump just got some pretty bug numbers from the Hispanics in the recent primaries.

[jimnyc]

Except Nevada showed that Hispanics do vote for Trump... I was surprised to hear her say that. But the company that signs her paycheck is definitely not in Trump's corner, to say the least.



http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/25/yes-donald-trump-won-latinos-over-marco-rubio-and-ted-cruz-here-s-why.html

The media is still trying to push the no-Latino idea, but it's not holding water.

And I suspect that the reason is because your average Latino, immigrant or not, is just as offended as the rest of us over the Illegals situation. I've talked to a couple of immigrants here in AK about it, and they're more pissed than anyone that they did it the right way, which took considerable effort, and then there's a few million that cheated while there's serious talk about letting them slide.

Both of these women are now legal citizens, one is from the Philippines and the other from Thailand.

I should have read further before replying. :) Or perhaps - maybe those who DO like him know that he wasn't speaking about regular immigrants, but ILLEGALS?

[pete311]

Rubio humiliated Trump. Trump is more of a buffoon than W.

[NightTrain]

Rubio humiliated Trump. Trump is more of a buffoon than W.

But, I thought you liked Trump, seeing as how he's liberal and all.

What gives?

[pete311]

But, I thought you liked Trump, seeing as how he's liberal and all.

What gives?

Find me a post where I support Trump otherwise stop trolling troll

[NightTrain]

Find me a post where I support Trump otherwise stop trolling troll

Let's do some basic math.

You're a liberal.

You assert Trump is a liberal.

Shouldn't you be supporting that liberal?

[jimnyc]

Rubio humiliated Trump. Trump is more of a buffoon than W.

Trump leads in Rubio's own state, and of course nationally. Call him all you like, but whatever it is you call him, you might want to get used to it. :coffee:

[pete311]

Let's do some basic math.

You're a liberal.

You assert Trump is a liberal.

Shouldn't you be supporting that liberal?

I am not a liberal. I don't know what Trump is. I don't blindly support people even if they say they are part of a group I generally support. Is this republican logic?

[pete311]

Trump leads in Rubio's own state, and of course nationally. Call him all you like, but whatever it is you call him, you might want to get used to it. :coffee:

Says more about the voters.

[jimnyc]

Says more about the voters.

Yup, we're all stupid and brainless. You know, Archie Bunker types of people! :laugh:

Personally, I think folks flocking to and voting for a criminal says much, much more.

[pete311]

Personally, I think folks flocking to and voting for a criminal says much, much more.

Keep deflecting

[NightTrain]

Keep deflecting

You're not fooling anyone, Petey.

You're a firm Bernie kind of guy, aren't you?

[pete311]

You're not fooling anyone, Petey.

You're a firm Bernie kind of guy, aren't you?

I have made no decisions yet

[jimnyc]

I have made no decisions yet

Sure, petey, you sound familiar!! Condemn others and mock but sit on the fence yourself talking about how we will suddenly ruin the country if we vote Trump. Trust me, you ALREADY made your decision.

[NightTrain]

I have made no decisions yet

But your two options both have a (D) next to their names, don't they?

[pete311]

Sure, petey, you sound familiar!! Condemn others and mock but sit on the fence yourself talking about how we will suddenly ruin the country if we vote Trump. Trust me, you ALREADY made your decision.

Not voting for Trump doesn't mean I made a decision. I won't until after a general election primary.

[jimnyc]

Not voting for Trump doesn't mean I made a decision. I won't until after a general election primary.

A criminal, or a guy that doesn't seem to understand that free is not free. I would wait and pray that someone else jumps in too.

[pete311]

But your two options both have a (D) next to their names, don't they?

Trump has not won yet. I've said a few times I would consider Rubio.

[pete311]

or a guy that doesn't seem to understand that free is not free.

Civilized society is not free

[jimnyc]

Civilized society is not free

Dance, petey, dance! Ignore the reality, but it won't help. He has you fooled too I guess.

Tell me petey - out of all the FREE things that Bernie and Hillary are talking about - which are REALLY free? Dismiss ALL tuition and now everyone goes to college without paying.

Is that "free"? Who pays the colleges, or do they work for free? We'll start with just this one freebie and work forward...

[pete311]

Dance, petey, dance! Ignore the reality, but it won't help. He has you fooled too I guess.

Tell me petey - out of all the FREE things that Bernie and Hillary are talking about - which are REALLY free? Dismiss ALL tuition and now everyone goes to college without paying.

Is that "free"? Who pays the colleges, or do they work for free? We'll start with just this one freebie and work forward...

I never said they were free. But I am willing to consider paying for a better society. The more people are healthy and educated the better the country is.

[jimnyc]

I never said they were free. But I am willing to consider paying for a better society. The more people are healthy and educated the better the country is.

And even better - the more people take personal responsibility for themselves, the better the country is. The more tons sit back and expect freebies and for the government to take care of them... well you know, then the next thing is they may even want free tampons!!

[pete311]

And even better - the more people take personal responsibility for themselves, the better the country is. The more tons sit back and expect freebies and for the government to take care of them... well you know, then the next thing is they may even want free tampons!!

You will say this until the end of time and guess what, it changes nothing. Pointing fingers at people doesn't achieve anything. What does personal responsibility have to do with the basic expectation for affordable heathcare and education?

[Abbey Marie]

Except Nevada showed that Hispanics do vote for Trump... I was surprised to hear her say that. But the company that signs her paycheck is definitely not in Trump's corner, to say the least.
...


Yes, he apparently did ok with Hispanics in the Republican primary. But we are talking about getting votes in the general election so as to beat the Dem candidate. Republican primaries are not a solid view into the thoughts of Dem or Independent voters. I believe that Rubio can pull Hispanic votes from them better than any other candidate. And I believe we need those votes to win.

[Abbey Marie]

You will say this until the end of time and guess what, it changes nothing. Pointing fingers at people doesn't achieve anything. What does personal responsibility have to do with the basic expectation for affordable heathcare and education?


Everything.

[pete311]

Everything.

Please explain my personal responsibility for my healthcare when I get brain cancer. Does that mean I should have gone to school as a surgeon and done my own surgery? How can I go to med school and not be $200K in debt? Should I have studied at home, practicing on my pet dog?

[Russ]

Except Nevada showed that Hispanics do vote for Trump... I was surprised to hear her say that. But the company that signs her paycheck is definitely not in Trump's corner, to say the least.




Yes, he apparently did ok with Hispanics in the Republican primary. But we are talking about getting votes in the general election so as to beat the Dem candidate. Republican primaries are not a solid view into the thoughts of Dem or Independent voters. I believe that Rubio can pull Hispanic votes from them better than any other candidate. And I believe we need those votes to win.

As Abbey mentioned, getting Hispanic votes on the Republican primary may or may not mean anything in the general election.

I would also point out the two ways they measure which votes are Hispanic votes. Method one - they look for voting districts where the general population is almost all Hispanic voters, and then just consider all the votes in that district as Hispanic votes. Method two - they just look for Hispanic sounding last names in the votes or polls, and if the names is something like "Hernandez", they count it as a Hispanic vote.

Both methods I would consider to be 'inexact'.

[Abbey Marie]

Please explain my personal responsibility for my healthcare when I get brain cancer. Does that mean I should have gone to school as a surgeon and done my own surgery? How can I go to med school and not be $200K in debt? Should I have studied at home, practicing on my pet dog?


Oh boy, come one Pete. Your personal responsibility is to earn the money to pay for your own health insurance premiums. Whatever type of employment you choose in order to do that, it's still the same green usable money.

[NightTrain]

Yes, he apparently did ok with Hispanics in the Republican primary. But we are talking about getting votes in the general election so as to beat the Dem candidate. Republican primaries are not a solid view into the thoughts of Dem or Independent voters. I believe that Rubio can pull Hispanic votes from them better than any other candidate. And I believe we need those votes to win.


As Abbey mentioned, getting Hispanic votes on the Republican primary may or may not mean anything in the general election.

I would also point out the two ways they measure which votes are Hispanic votes. Method one - they look for voting districts where the general population is almost all Hispanic voters, and then just consider all the votes in that district as Hispanic votes. Method two - they just look for Hispanic sounding last names in the votes or polls, and if the names is something like "Hernandez", they count it as a Hispanic vote.

Both methods I would consider to be 'inexact'.


Good points.

I'll have to dig into those poll methods a bit... the Nevada poll I posted was an Entrance poll conducted by CNN, though.

As far as non-GOP voters, I've read in several polls that Trump was pulling by far the most Independents and even moderate Dems. That was a while back, though, so that may have changed. I don't know who is pulling the most Independents these days for certain... but I suspect it's still Trump.

[pete311]

Oh boy, come one Pete. Your personal responsibility is to earn the money to pay for your own health insurance premiums. Whatever type of employment you choose in order to do that, it's still the same green usable money.

Who is going to regulate these premiums without the gov? Big business will make as much as it can. Who can afford $1k+ a month premiums. Brain surgery aint cheap. Also not everyone can have a great paying job. If everyone had "personal responsibility" there would be no one to do all the dirty or unskilled jobs. Who is going to deliver your pizza, dry clean your dress, check you out at target, serve you coffee at starbucks. These people don't deserve to get their cancer treatment?

[Abbey Marie]

Who is going to regulate these premiums without the gov? Big business will make as much as it can. Who can afford $1k+ a month premiums. Brain surgery aint cheap. Also not everyone can have a great paying job. If everyone had "personal responsibility" there would be no one to do all the dirty or unskilled jobs. Who is going to deliver your pizza, dry clean your dress, check you out at target, serve you coffee at starbucks. These people don't deserve to get their cancer treatment?


Oh, stop being dramatic. I don't know what goes on in your world, but both my parents and my husband and I put things like healthcare near the very top of our priority list. The problem with our entitlement culture today is that people don't want to sacrifice anymore. They want their iPhone and nice car and entertainment, and let the hard working stiffs' taxes pay for those boring things like insurance premiums, right?

[jimnyc]

Oh, stop being dramatic. I don't know what goes on in your world, but both my parents and my husband and I put things like healthcare near the very top of our priority list. The problem with our entitlement culture today is that people don't want to sacrifice anymore. They want their iPhone and nice car and entertainment, and let the hard working stiffs' taxes pay for those boring things like insurance premiums, right?

You have no heart, woman!! Shouldn't people be able to avoid work and other responsibilities, and feel safe inside knowing that if the shit hits the fan, they will still get free health care and free money from a few different feeds?

Hopefully my 3rd leg doesn't get gangrene while I'm in the midst of my chemo treatments. You heartless people would expect me to pay out of pocket, while also feeding my 7 kids, because you heartless bastards also wouldn't pay for my birth control!!

[pete311]

The problem with our entitlement culture today is that people don't want to sacrifice anymore. They want their iPhone and nice car and entertainment, and let the hard working stiffs' taxes pay for those boring things like insurance premiums, right?

How do you know this is reality or just some fantasy you made up? I serve meals every tuesday to inner city families and I know plenty of moms who work 2-3 min wage jobs. One of them is my Big Brother kid who eats ketchup for dinner and can't read because he's never been read to by his mom because she's never home, because she's working 2-3 jobs.

[pete311]

Shouldn't people be able to avoid work and other responsibilities

So everyone unemployed is avoiding work and responsibilities? Someone just get laided off doesn't deserve to get their brain cancer treated?

[Abbey Marie]

How do you know this is reality or just some fantasy you made up? I serve meals every tuesday to inner city families and I know plenty of moms who work 2-3 min wage jobs. One of them is my Big Brother kid who eats ketchup for dinner and can't read because he's never been read to by his mom because she's never home, because she's working 2-3 jobs.

Re: your Big Brother kid- where's daddy?

FYI, I grew up in gov't housing projects in the South Bronx. That's as "inner city" as it gets, Pete.
My father managed to have us sheltered, fed, and insured. Big help was that my parents married before having children, worked hard, and stayed together and worked together to make things as good as they could for the family. And my mother taught me to read before I went to school. Valuing education and intellectual curiosity were part of life.

Sorry, not buying your bleeding heart excuses.

[jimnyc]

So everyone unemployed is avoiding work and responsibilities? Someone just get laided off doesn't deserve to get their brain cancer treated?

No, I'll bet the majority of folks unemployed are just fine. But too many abuse the system. No reason not to put some checks and balances in place to try and close up the loopholes. The treatment one gets should be based on what health plan they had prior to being laid off, and assuming they are still paying for their health care. They will get forms helping them extend their health insurance after leaving. After that, they should get the same treatment anyone else in the nation would get. And if someone doesn't like the level of coverage they have, they can certainly opt to a different plan when they can. **OT - reminds me of SO many people that go out of their way to get basic coverage on their automobiles, and then get angry when things aren't fully covered should they get into an accident. And YES, they are the same, it's called personal responsibility. We all have that option. And yeah, brain cancer sucks butt, but it would be retarded to suddenly offer million dollar medical procedures for free to anyone who needs it.

[jimnyc]

Re: your Big Brother kid- where's daddy?

FYI, I grew up in gov't housing projects in the South Bronx. That's as "inner city" as it gets. Pete.
My father managed to have us sheltered, fed, and insured. Big help was that my parents married before having children, worked hard, and stayed together and worked together to make things as good as they could for the family. And my mother taught me to read before I went to school. Valuing education and intellectual curiosity were part of life.

Sorry, not buying your bleeding heart excuses.

It's burned into the brains, Abs. And now they're trying to force us into their weird world, or they will just take a check if they had their way. :rolleyes:

[NightTrain]

So everyone unemployed is avoiding work and responsibilities? Someone just get laided off doesn't deserve to get their brain cancer treated?

Where do you get off in demanding that I have to pay for your brain cancer?

[pete311]

Where do you get off in demanding that I have to pay for your brain cancer?

Guess we want to live in two different worlds. If you get brain cancer I'd definitely pitch in a few bucks to help you. Gold Rule...

[jimnyc]

Guess we want to live in two different worlds. If you get brain cancer I'd definitely pitch in a few bucks to help you. Gold Rule...

Well, I for one am very glad that you have my back, buddy!! But you ain't getting jack shit from me, so plan ahead! :laugh:

[Abbey Marie]

Guess we want to live in two different worlds. If you get brain cancer I'd definitely pitch in a few bucks to help you. Gold Rule...


I don't think NT has a problem with people helping each other voluntarily. But don't stick you hand in our pockets by way of the force of the govt.

[NightTrain]

Guess we want to live in two different worlds. If you get brain cancer I'd definitely pitch in a few bucks to help you. Gold Rule...

I've given til it hurts. I'm a very charitable person.

However, having people demand that I give them my money is quite another story.

I make sure that myself and my family have insurance. Anyone can get insurance if they choose to get off their ass and get some. I don't subscribe to your belief that there are millions of helpless victims all over the USA that can't do what I do - or the other millions of other responsible Americans.

[jimnyc]

I don't think NT has a problem with people helping each other voluntarily. But don't stick you hand in our pockets by way of the force of the govt.

EXACTLY!

We're a very generous bunch of folks when it comes down to it. But I'll be happy to donate where "I" see necessary with MY money, and without the government being a middle man where who knows how much of it gets used for some other shit. Get that petey, MY money! Touch it and this little guy cuts you! http://www.tuf-clan.com/forums/Smileys/akyhne/knife.gif

[pete311]

I don't think NT has a problem with people helping each other voluntarily. But don't stick you hand in our pockets by way of the force of the govt.

Let's be honest, it aint gonna happen otherwise. Like I said earlier. I think a healthy and educated society is important and I'm ready to pay for it. I get the whole personal responsibility thing. I live on the edge of the inner city. I see the shitty cars with huge rims and it drives (pun intended) me crazy, but I know there are scores of people who do deserve expensive treatment and a college education. As a society we will be better off rather than staying jealous and selfish. You guys want educated people, well, we gotta make college accessible and affordable. Even if I gotta pay. That's a world I want to live in. A world where everyone is college educated. Obviously some will still be making pennies at starbucks, but at least they will have a brain.

[pete311]

We're a very generous bunch of folks when it comes down to it. But I'll be happy to donate where "I" see necessary with MY money, and without the government being a middle man

Well obviously "your" "altruism" is not enough or we'd see better results in society. So I'd give you a big fat F. Maybe the gov can bring you up to a C-.

[NightTrain]

Let's be honest, it aint gonna happen otherwise. Like I said earlier. I think a healthy and educated society is important and I'm ready to pay for it. I get the whole personal responsibility thing. I live on the edge of the inner city. I see the shitty cars with huge rims and it drives (pun intended) me crazy, but I know there are scores of people who do deserve expensive treatment and a college education. As a society we will be better off rather than staying jealous and selfish. You guys want educated people, well, we gotta make college accessible and affordable. Even if I gotta pay. That's a world I want to live in. A world where everyone is college educated. Obviously some will still be making pennies at starbucks, but at least they will have a brain.

Nope.

I wanted to go to college, so I did it the old fashioned way : I went into debt and then I paid it off. I did it myself 100%, and I mean 100%. No parents or grandparents helping out. Just me.

I didn't want anyone's charity because I'm a capable adult that can do anything I put my mind to.

What's wrong with that?

[Abbey Marie]

Let's be honest, it aint gonna happen otherwise. Like I said earlier. I think a healthy and educated society is important and I'm ready to pay for it. I get the whole personal responsibility thing. I live on the edge of the inner city. I see the shitty cars with huge rims and it drives (pun intended) me crazy, but I know there are scores of people who do deserve expensive treatment and a college education. As a society we will be better off rather than staying jealous and selfish. You guys want educated people, well, we gotta make college accessible and affordable. Even if I gotta pay. That's a world I want to live in. A world where everyone is college educated. Obviously some will still be making pennies at starbucks, but at least they will have a brain.


Wait, so you think having people pass a few simple tests in order to vote is too hard for them and therefore unfair, but you think everyone can be college-educated?

[pete311]

Nope.

I wanted to go to college, so I did it the old fashioned way : I went into debt and then I paid it off. I did it myself 100%, and I mean 100%. No parents or grandparents helping out. Just me.

I didn't want anyone's charity because I'm a capable adult that can do anything I put my mind to.

What's wrong with that?

Great, me too, nothing wrong with that. Not everyone has that opportunity. My wife, who is a brilliant teacher, when she graduated she had some $80k in debt even after scholarships. Now she makes pennies as a 2nd grade teacher. Without me she'd still be living at her parents for many years.

[pete311]

Wait, so you think having people pass a few simple tests in order to vote is too hard for them and therefore unfair, but you think everyone can be college-educated?

College is not the right word, but everyone should have access to post high school learning systems. That could be trade skills, certificate programs etc. 12 years of gov funded school is not some holy number. These days kids need more.

[NightTrain]

Great, me too, nothing wrong with that. Not everyone has that opportunity. My wife, who is a brilliant teacher, when she graduated she had some $80k in debt even after scholarships. Now she makes pennies as a 2nd grade teacher. Without me she'd still be living at her parents for many years.


Nifty.

Now why do you think it's better to give out college educations for free? We both know that being self reliant is the best course of action, not creating more welfare class people.

Beyond that obvious fact, we can't afford it.

I know Bernie is telling you that he's going to give you all sorts of free shit, but the cold reality is that there is no way in hell that we could pay for all of it - let alone getting it passed in Congress.

This is a pipe dream, and a silly one that actually would hurt those clamoring for it.

[pete311]

Nifty.

Now why do you think it's better to give out college educations for free? We both know that being self reliant is the best course of action, not creating more welfare class people.

Beyond that obvious fact, we can't afford it.

I know Bernie is telling you that he's going to give you all sorts of free shit, but the cold reality is that there is no way in hell that we could pay for all of it - let alone getting it passed in Congress.

This is a pipe dream, and a silly one that actually would hurt those clamoring for it.

It's not free, I'm willing to tack on a few tax percents to make it happen.

[Abbey Marie]

College is not the right word, but everyone should have access to post high school learning systems. That could be trade skills, certificate programs etc. 12 years of gov funded school is not some holy number. These days kids need more.


Why do all that at college age? I've always thought the trades should be learned while in high school. Not everyone is academically oriented.

[pete311]

Why do all that at college age? I've always thought the trades should be learned while in high school. Not everyone is academically oriented.

Sure, my dad went to a tech school and learned trades. But there is only so much time to pack in classes. What do you take out to fit in trade classes?

[Abbey Marie]

Sure, my dad went to a tech school and learned trades. But there is only so much time to pack in classes. What do you take out to fit in trade classes?

Anything above the basics.

[pete311]

Anything above the basics.

Do you mean anything other than math and reading? So every school's curriculum will switch to "Math, Reading, Carpentry, Auto Repair, Welding, Baking, Masonry, Electrical..."?

[hjmick]

So this thread isn't really about the GOP CNN debate?


Got it... Someone may want to change the title...

[NightTrain]

It's not free, I'm willing to tack on a few tax percents to make it happen.

Petey, take 10 minutes and watch this clip. Cavuto is a sharp guy and knows the numbers.

Our 18 year old now daughter understands what the problem is with 'Free' college after watching this; I feel confident that you will too.

This girl in the interview is the one that organized that 'million student march' demanding 'free' college, btw.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Zmji36q8E4o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[NightTrain]

So this thread isn't really about the GOP CNN debate?


Got it... Someone may want to change the title...

Philistine. :poke:

[pete311]

Petey, take 10 minutes and watch this clip. Cavuto is a sharp guy and knows the numbers.

This girl in the interview is the one that organized that 'million student march' demanding 'free' college, btw.


I watched it and she is not well prepared. There is little doubt we can afford it if we raise taxes. If we can pay for a 2 trillion dollar unwarranted war, we can pay for kids to get an education.

Why are you ok with taxpayer subsidized elementary and secondary school (high school)? Maybe we should get rid of the entire public school system?

[jimnyc]

I watched it and she is not well prepared. There is little doubt we can afford it if we raise taxes. If we can pay for a 2 trillion dollar unwarranted war, we can pay for kids to get an education.

Why are you ok with taxpayer subsidized elementary and secondary school (high school)? Maybe we should get rid of the entire public school system?

Surely the education system needs help and repair in some areas - but to go from that to FREE education for everyone? I don't think so.

[aboutime]

After reading most all of pete's posts here. There is only one conclusion we can all agree on about pete's FAVORITE words.."HOLY NUMBERS".

Please explain what Holy Numbers mean pete? Since you are dedicated to using those words so vigorously in nearly every post?

[pete311]

Surely the education system needs help and repair in some areas - but to go from that to FREE education for everyone? I don't think so.

Public education already has "free" K-12. Why aren't you protesting we end that?


After reading most all of pete's posts here. There is only one conclusion we can all agree on about pete's FAVORITE words.."HOLY NUMBERS".

Please explain what Holy Numbers mean pete? Since you are dedicated to using those words so vigorously in nearly every post?

Why 12 years of public school and not 14 or 16?

[NightTrain]

Public education already has "free" K-12. Why aren't you protesting we end that?



Why 12 years of public school and not 14 or 16?


Hell, why not 32?

No point in half-stepping.

[aboutime]

Public education already has "free" K-12. Why aren't you protesting we end that?



Why 12 years of public school and not 14 or 16?


I have no reason to protest something because of numbers. It's the poor quality of Government/Public Union Teacher run, and administrations that only look at MONEY to appease their lack of actual Ability to Teach.
Doesn't matter how many years here in the USA anymore. If the quality isn't there, and the people who are supposed to be teaching are UNDER-educated. Years, and numbers do not matter.
Many parents are choosing to remove their children from Public Fraudulent, Tax-thieving Govt. run schools and choosing Charter, Private, or Parochial for REAL EDUCATION QUALITY.
So..12, 14, or 16 isn't the END ALL Answer. EDUCATION, REAL EDUCATION IS.

[pete311]

Hell, why not 32?

No point in half-stepping.

Because few go to school for that long. Don't be silly.

[pete311]

I have no reason to protest something because of numbers. It's the poor quality of Government/Public Union Teacher run, and administrations that only look at MONEY to appease their lack of actual Ability to Teach.
Doesn't matter how many years here in the USA anymore. If the quality isn't there, and the people who are supposed to be teaching are UNDER-educated. Years, and numbers do not matter.
Many parents are choosing to remove their children from Public Fraudulent, Tax-thieving Govt. run schools and choosing Charter, Private, or Parochial for REAL EDUCATION QUALITY.
So..12, 14, or 16 isn't the END ALL Answer. EDUCATION, REAL EDUCATION IS.

There are many fine public universities which is what I am getting at.

[NightTrain]

Because few go to school for that long. Don't be silly.

Shouldn't we force them to go to the school that we're forced to pay for? The tyranny should be equally distributed in fairness.

[pete311]

Shouldn't we force them to go to the school that we're forced to pay for? The tyranny should be equally distributed in fairness.

I don't know what you mean by this.

[pete311]

Do you consider offering K-12 tyranny?

[NightTrain]

Do you consider offering K-12 tyranny?

Did you learn nothing from Neil Cavuto?

We can't afford free college. Move to North Korea - they have great free schooling.

[pete311]

Did you learn nothing from Neil Cavuto?

We can't afford free college. Move to North Korea - they have great free schooling.

Why do you keep saying free? Answer my question in #92.

[NightTrain]

Why do you keep saying free? Answer my question in #92.

I'm all for basic education, K-12.

Anything beyond high school is entirely the young adult's choice, and out of their pocket.

I'm not going to be forced to pay for your brain cancer, Petey, nor am I going to pay for your kid's college. I have better things to do with my money, like buy a new jet boat.

[pete311]

I'm all for basic education, K-12.

Anything beyond high school is entirely the young adult's choice, and out of their pocket.


Your reasoning seems completely arbitrary.

[NightTrain]

Your reasoning seems completely arbitrary.

Probably does from a socialist's viewpoint.

There's no free ride, Petey.

[pete311]

Probably does from a socialist's viewpoint.

There's no free ride, Petey.

No, from any viewpoint, because you offer no reasoning.

You keep using the word free. Why do you think it is important to me?

[NightTrain]

No, from any viewpoint, because you offer no reasoning.

You keep using the word free. Why do you think it is important to me?

Because that's how you liberals sell socialism. You hook as many welfare recipients as you can with 'free' money, and 'free' foodstamps, and lure more into your web of despair by promising shit like Bernie's doing - all these idiot kids are running around demanding 'free' college and just about anything else you can think of.

Do you know it's going to take a 47% tax hike across the board to pay for all that free shit that Bernie's wanting to give out?

[pete311]

Because that's how you liberals sell socialism. You hook as many welfare recipients as you can with 'free' money, and 'free' foodstamps, and lure more into your web of despair by promising shit like Bernie's doing - all these idiot kids are running around demanding 'free' college and just about anything else you can think of.

Do you know it's going to take a 47% tax hike across the board to pay for all that free shit that Bernie's wanting to give out?

Gosh, you know how much you are paying for free K-12? We should end that too. No more free lunch K-12! Only socialists agree with free K-12. Bunch of free loading kids.

[NightTrain]

Gosh, you know how much you are paying for free K-12? We should end that too. No more free lunch K-12! Only socialists agree with free K-12. Bunch of free loading kids.

So, Petey, where were you exposed to your communist leanings?

[pete311]

So, Petey, where were you exposed to your communist leanings?

Keep dodging my questions. Why? It makes you think too hard?

[NightTrain]

Keep dodging my questions. Why? It makes you think too hard?

Dodge? I answered your questions. I reject your communist ideals. Fair enough?

We didn't become the lone Superpower by socialism; it was capitalism. All you have to do is look around the world to see what happens when a bunch of foolish people buy in to the notion that free shit from socialism will make things better. The competition that capitalism provides drives innovation and superior work ethic. Without competition to thrive, there is no incentive to better yourself or strive to be the best - because everyone gets paid the same whether you slack off and let Jones in the next cubical over do your work or if you bust your ass. Without that carrot to succeed, people will not push themselves.

A great example is Venezuela. Take a look at how your socialist ideas put into play wrecked an entire nation even though they're sitting on so much oil that they're swimming in it.

Last year there was a Venezuelan on the board here, and he didn't have anything good to say about how things are going down there.

Here's what Forbes had to say about things :


On Tuesday January 13th, the ratings agency Moody’s downgraded Venezuela to Caa3, one step above default. This comes as no surprise – markets have been pricing in the likelihood of default for some time now.

Curiously, though, Moody’s changed the outlook from negative to stable:


The stable outlook is based on Moody’s view that even if the oil price drops further, expected losses to bondholders are likely to be consistent with a Caa3 rating and unlikely to reach levels associated with lower ratings.


This is too generous. Moody’s assessment assumes that Venezuela’s problem is mainly a balance of payments crisis caused by a rapidly falling oil price and inadequate foreign reserves. But the reality is different – and far worse.


The balance of payments problem is bad enough. The falling oil price is causing a widening foreign exchange gap. Venezuela needs an oil price of $100 per barrel to balance its external accounts, but oil is falling rapidly towards $40 per barrel and so far, Venezuela has failed to persuade other oil producers to reduce production in order to support the price. Venezuela’s foreign exchange outflows now substantially exceed its inflows, not least because it is supporting a complex and unhelpful exchange rate system: its US$ reserves are down to $22bn and falling fast. Venezuela will probably attempt to staunch the bleeding with tighter price and exchange controls, but all this will do is accelerate demonetization of the economy as more and more trading shifts to the black market.


But the real issue is Venezuela’s domestic economic problems. Venezuela has been in deep recession for most of the last year. Its budget deficit in October 2014 – before the most recent catastrophic oil price falls – was 17%. Inflation is officially at 65%, unofficially probably far more. Import controls, inflation and the overvalued bolivar are causing shortages of essential goods.


Shortages are nothing new in Venezuela. Indeed, a shortage of toilet paper has been the subject of global amusement for quite some time. But recently, the shortages have become much worse. Last week, a government official was jeered for saying that long lines indicated that “Venezuela has plenty of food”, when rows and rows of empty shelves in stores were telling a different story. Bloomberg reports that people are queueing overnight for necessities such as soap, milk and diapers. This is very dangerous. Venezuela is already one of the most violent societies on earth. And when shortages start to affect little children, people get angry.


Fearful of public unrest escalating into something more serious, the government has now deployed troops to control queues of disgruntled shoppers at the country’s half-empty stores. And it has introduced a system of rationing, limiting shoppers to two days per week at government-controlled stores. As Bloomberg cynically put it, “Venezuela reduces lines by trimming shoppers, not shortages”.


President Maduro returned empty-handed from his recent whirlwind global tour: China didn’t want to lend him any money, and oil producers didn’t want to cut production. However, he does seem to have swung some sort of financing deal with Qatar to soften the balance of payments problem. But in his absence, his opponents seized the opportunity to liven things up. Claiming that the country was “in a state of emergency”, the opposition leader Henrique Capriles called for people to “mobilize in the streets”. It is all too easy to see where this is headed.


Back in the late 1980s, the economists Rudiger Dornbusch & Sebastian Edwards described how countries such as Venezuela which pursue highly expansionary populist policies to the detriment of public finances typically go through four distinct phases in what might be called a “boom-bust” cycle. This is their description of Phase 3:


Phase III: Pervasive shortages, extreme acceleration of inflation, and an obvious foreign exchange gap lead to capital flight and demonetization of the economy. The budget deficit deteriorates violently because of a steep decline in tax collection and increasing subsidy costs. The government attempts to stabilize by cutting subsidies and by a real depreciation. Real wages fall massively, and politics become unstable. It becomes clear that the government has lost.


This is why Moody’s has been too generous to Venezuela. The balance of payments problem is merely the trigger for a massive fiscal, economic and ultimately political crisis that can only end in one way – the disorderly collapse of the regime. Whether this will take the form of a revolution, a military coup or simple chaos remains to be seen. But what we are witnessing is the destruction of Venezuela’s economy. And that destruction is not, fundamentally, because of external factors. It is a direct consequence of the economic policies pursued by the Chavez and Maduro regimes.


Over the last fifteen years, the Venezuelan government has nationalized hundreds of companies and seized assets on a massive scale. Many of those seizures have been the subject of expensive litigation in international courts: the most recent case was Exxon’s award of $1.6bn in compensation for expropriation of its Venezuelan oil projects. Often, these nationalizations have come in response to falling production due to government price and exchange controls. For example, production in Venezuela’s car industry dropped by 85% between January 2013 and January 2014: in February 2014, Toyota suspended production for six weeks citing inability to import parts, resulting in calls from trades unions for the industry to be nationalized. All too often, the Venezuelan government has given in to such calls, rather than addressing the underlying problems.


Widespread nationalization of private enterprises and seizure of assets discourages both domestic entrepreneurialism and foreign investment, and nationalized companies too often end up less efficient and less productive than they were when in private hands. The Venezuelan government has mismanaged its nationalized oil industry, resulting in revenues far below what would reasonably be expected from its vast oil reserves, and misallocated those disappointing revenues into the bargain: instead of using the revenues to diversify its economy and develop domestic production in other sectors, it has diverted them into politically popular but unproductive social programs and distortionary price controls and subsidies. Consequently, Venezuela has become far too dependent on oil revenues, its fiscal finances are in a parlous state and its industry is highly inefficient. It was in a mess long before the present fall in oil prices.


...


The deprivation that awaits the Venezuelan people is far, far worse than anything they are experiencing at the moment. Attracted by the lure of socialism and promised equality and prosperity, they have walked an all too well-trodden path – the road to hell.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2015/01/13/the-impending-collapse-of-venezuela/#6ea9c6231cd7

It's clear from all your postings that the Government needs to step in and start handing out free education programs and administering health care.

Have you stopped to consider that the U.S. Postal Service has lost over $46 BILLION since 2007? The Feds can't even deliver mail profitably or efficiently, and you want them in charge of education and healthcare? How do you explain the profitability of Fed Ex, UPS, DHL and others that do the same thing and yet make money? You have to have a screw loose to think the Feds are good at anything except fighting wars, and those are horrendously expensive.

All you have to do, Petey, is look at the world around you and see how foolish it is to embrace your socialist ideals that another fool told you were great ideas.

I ask you again, Petey : Where did you pick up your socialist / communist leanings? It was up in Madison, wasn't it?

[pete311]

Dodge? I answered your questions. I reject your communist ideals. Fair enough?


No you didn't. You have not explained why you accept K-12 "free" education.

[Gunny]

Keep dodging my questions. Why? It makes you think too hard?

Why are you always so angry? NT dodge a question? Are we in the Twilight Zone? You accuse me of some shit in one thread, now you're on NT. And you usually argue with Jim. DO you think you could pick three people who are going to take less shit than we do?

You have no argument. You accuse us of playing semantics but that is EXACTLY what YOUR game is. You just try to wordsmith everything and you ain't even good at it. If you can't handle arguing/discussing issues with us, then go away. I prefer you stay, but get off your damned high horse.

Ain't nobody here going to take any shit off you. We don't even take it off each other. So grow up, reach down and grab a pair, or find someone that'll tolerate you better. And if you REALLY got something to say to NT, ask Jim if y'all can go play in the Cage. I'll watch. He's just being polite because he's staff.

[NightTrain]

No you didn't. You have not explained why you accept K-12 "free" education.

A basic education afforded to all children, regardless of socioeconomic class, is necessary for a 1st world country. Literacy is mandatory to succeed.

Now address the Wall of Text that I provided you in explaining why you're wrong about your communist leanings.

We can then delve more thoroughly into other countries and their failures when embracing your ideals if you still stubbornly fail to acknowledge simple truths about human motivation and performance.

[pete311]

Gunny, it's a simple question, can you answer it?

Why you accept K-12 "free" education.

[pete311]

A basic education afforded to all children, regardless of socioeconomic class, is necessary for a 1st world country. Literacy is mandatory to succeed.


So you would support starting kids earlier instead of tacking on years after they turn 18, since they would be adults?

[pete311]

I gtg, I'll be back next friday

[Gunny]

Gunny, it's a simple question, can you answer it?

Why you accept K-12 "free" education.

What am I supposed to accept? My granddaughters go to private school at a church to keep that liberal crap out of their heads. However, what am I supposed to accept? I was a military brat. I've been to school all over this country. I ended up re-learning crap in the 10th grade in FL and CA stuff I learned in the 6th grade in Texas. I could teach my own kids more than they learned in public schools by the time I got out of 3rd grade.

I'm not against public schools. I'm against what's being taught in them nowadays. And as far as allowing leeches to hang on until they're 30? Get a damned job. I had to. I didn't get to hang out and suck off my parents' wallets. And I don't think it hurt me a bit. Kids nowadays disgust me. They're weak and think they deserve a free ride. Not on MY dime.

[NightTrain]

So you would support starting kids earlier instead of tacking on years after they turn 18, since they would be adults?

Already answered.

Post 103.

Your turn.

[aboutime]

Gunny, it's a simple question, can you answer it?

Why you accept K-12 "free" education.


pete. Anyone who is foolish enough to believe, or think Public Education is Free, K-12 probably has no idea where the money comes from to operate those SO-CALLED (laughing) Free Schools.

Nothing, but Nothing is ever FREE, which today's Socialists, Democrats, and Uninformed College kids will never accept, or recognize. SOMEBODY...namely...WE THE PEOPLE, have to PAY for all the FREE stuff. No matter what DRUGS you may be on.

[Gunny]

pete. Anyone who is foolish enough to believe, or think Public Education is Free, K-12 probably has no idea where the money comes from to operate those SO-CALLED (laughing) Free Schools.

Nothing, but Nothing is ever FREE, which today's Socialists, Democrats, and Uninformed College kids will never accept, or recognize. SOMEBODY...namely...WE THE PEOPLE, have to PAY for all the FREE stuff. No matter what DRUGS you may be on.

When you get done paying for shots and supplies, there ain't noting free about shit.

[Drummond]

Because that's how you liberals sell socialism. You hook as many welfare recipients as you can with 'free' money, and 'free' foodstamps, and lure more into your web of despair by promising shit like Bernie's doing - all these idiot kids are running around demanding 'free' college and just about anything else you can think of.

Do you know it's going to take a 47% tax hike across the board to pay for all that free shit that Bernie's wanting to give out?:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[Drummond]

When you get done paying for shots and supplies, there ain't noting free about shit.

Nothing at all. Exactly.

Our NHS supposedly offers 'free' treatment. But it has to be paid for by taxes ... taxes nobody can lawfully evade. And it's one hell of a drain on our economy, this so-called 'free' service.

And all done on a perception that amounts to an out-and-out LIE.

Create a dependency culture based on that lie ... and you're on the path to zero productivity and Third World status .... the Leftie 'Brave New World' .....

[Gunny]

Nothing at all. Exactly.

Our NHS supposedly offers 'free' treatment. But it has to be paid for by taxes ... taxes nobody can lawfully evade. And it's one hell of a drain on our economy, this so-called 'free' service.

And all done on a perception that amounts to an out-and-out LIE.

Create a dependency culture based on that lie ... and you're on the path to zero productivity and Third World status .... the Leftie 'Brave New World' .....

It costs you a good $399 to get in the door here. You have to put your kid in school, and you have to pay for their shots. That's a good $75 0ffthe top. Then, parents that have money are asked to buy extra supplies to pay or those that don't. It sucks because the kids are the ones that suffer if you don't. I'm REALLY easy when it comes to kids. I won't see them suffer if I can help it.

My daughter's a public school teacher. She spent more money off the top than I pay in. Kids that don't have coats, lunches, and in a lot of cases it's because daddy's 6-pack came before the pencils and crayons. My daughter is such a sucker for kids. Chip off the old block. :laugh:

I'm curious though. I know Kathianne is a teacher as well, but I think if IRCC she teaches private school. Wondering if there's a differnce.

[Kathianne]

It costs you a good $399 to get in the door here. You have to put your kid in school, and you have to pay for their shots. That's a good $75 0ffthe top. Then, parents that have money are asked to buy extra supplies to pay or those that don't. It sucks because the kids are the ones that suffer if you don't. I'm REALLY easy when it comes to kids. I won't see them suffer if I can help it.

My daughter's a public school teacher. She spent more money off the top than I pay in. Kids that don't have coats, lunches, and in a lot of cases it's because daddy's 6-pack came before the pencils and crayons. My daughter is such a sucker for kids. Chip off the old block. :laugh:

I'm curious though. I know @Kathianne (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=8) is a teacher as well, but I think if IRCC she teaches private school. Wondering if there's a differnce.

I taught in Catholic and public schools, one of my kids went primarily to public schools, the other two for high school. I lived in an area that in most respects the public schools were better for them. Note that I said 'in the area I lived' because that does very differently. US schools are primarily funded by local property taxes, the more wealthy the area, the more money the schools have. In all likelihood also the more they are able to charge for fees and texts. A double edged sword in many respects.

Just speaking of 'free' and 'public schools' is not a truism. For 6 years I had at least two kids in public high schools. In no year did it cost less than $900 to get them started in August for texts and fees. One year it was over $1400 because between the two of them they were in an AP science, programming, and engineering course and driver's ed-the fees were huge. Mind you, our high school back then-around early 2000's averaged $17k per student in 'real expenses.' The texts and fees were over and above.

Now Catholic schools are more expensive, a good high school is close to $10k per year. However the fees are negligible and 'no kid is left behind' if their parents can't afford the extra for fees or a field trip if a staff member thinks it would be because of costs.

[Gunny]

I taught in Catholic and public schools, one of my kids went primarily to public schools, the other two for high school. I lived in an area that in most respects the public schools were better for them. Note that I said 'in the area I lived' because that does very differently. US schools are primarily funded by local property taxes, the more wealthy the area, the more money the schools are. A double edged sword in many respects.

Just speaking of 'free' and 'public schools' is not a truism. For 6 years I had at least two kids in public high schools. In no year did it cost less than $900 to get them started in August for texts and fees. One year it was over $1400 because between the two of them they were in an AP science, programming, and engineering course and driver's ed-the fees were huge.

Now Catholic schools are more expensive, a good high school is close to $10k per year. However the fees are negligible and 'no kid is left behind' if their parents can't afford the extra for fees or a field trip if a staff member thinks it would be because of costs.

That's how it is in San Antonio. I lived in a place I couldn't afford just to ensure my daughter went to high school in the best school. Texas will soak you if you own property. Was worth it. Kid is a genius (like her dad) :laugh:. I'm not sure how she teaches 3rd graders though since she also has my temper. :laugh:

I think I paid out over a grand her senior year, BEFORE taxes.

The grandbabies go to a Lutheran school.

[Kathianne]

That's how it is in San Antonio. I lived in a place I couldn't afford just to ensure my daughter went to high school in the best school. Texas will soak you if you own property. Was worth it. Kid is a genius (like her dad) :laugh:. I'm not sure how she teaches 3rd graders though since she also has my temper. :laugh:

I think I paid out over a grand her senior year, BEFORE taxes.

The grandbabies go to a Lutheran school.

Yeah, didn't even include the costs for sports, choir, orchestra, etc. ;)

Uniforms save a ton of money, though by high school for most of the time, the kids bought their own clothes and schools. I'd chip in some, but they paid most.

[Gunny]

Yeah, didn't even include the costs for sports, choir, orchestra, etc. ;)

Uniforms save a ton of money, though by high school for most of the time, the kids bought their own clothes and schools. I'd chip in some, but they paid most.

Football and basketball cost a LOT. For me. My daughters didn't play. But my mom had to fork over the enrollment fee (about $35 in 1970s dollars) then pay for my shoes and uniforms. My dad tried to make me quit. Damned skinflint. :laugh:

[Kathianne]

Football and basketball cost a LOT. For me. My daughters didn't play. But my mom had to fork over the enrollment fee (about $35 in 1970s dollars) then pay for my shoes and uniforms. My dad tried to make me quit. Damned skinflint. :laugh:

There's another difference between public and private schools. Both reuse the sports uniforms, but in public one pays as if they were new. In Catholic about every 4 years they do a fundraiser, the only fees are for transportation and the stipend they pay the coaches.

[Gunny]

There's another difference between public and private schools. Both reuse the sports uniforms, but in public one pays as if they were new. In Catholic about every 4 years they do a fundraiser, the only fees are for transportation and the stipend they pay the coaches.

You mean those coaches that justified their pay by teaching driver's ed and sex ed? Jeez they were dumber'n red bricks. :laugh:

[Kathianne]

You mean those coaches that justified their pay by teaching driver's ed and sex ed? Jeez they were dumber'n red bricks. :laugh:

I don't know what happens where you are, but 'regular teachers' teach drivers ed-it's an 'extra-curricular' stipend. Sex ed is part of the phys ed department, assigned course no extra pay. When an 'advisor' to student council, art club, debate, etc., the same stipend pay is given as driver's ed.

[sundaydriver]

I don't know what happens where you are, but 'regular teachers' teach drivers ed-it's an 'extra-curricular' stipend. Sex ed is part of the phys ed department, assigned course no extra pay. When an 'adviser' to student council, art club, debate, etc., the same stipend pay is given as driver's ed.

Dad started two yearly scholarships for Band members, one at my sisters public school and the other at a local Catholic school. Each was to be administered by the music teacher.
Shortly thereafter he was contacted by the public school and was explained that the teacher must be paid a stipend for selecting the student to receive the scholarship, that's all he had to do. It wasn't much, but still, thanks for your generosity! We said okay and then Dad contacted the teacher at the private Catholic school and explained that since the public teacher would be receiving a stipend that she should too. She was flabbergasted and not accepting of this but Dad insisted it as being fair. She and the school accepted the offer as long as the stipend was paid into a student fund. Thirty six years later it's still being done.

[sundaydriver]

Oh yeah, it's the debate thread. I watched 10 minutes of antics and turned it off.

[Kathianne]

Dad started two yearly scholarships for Band members, one at my sisters public school and the other at a local Catholic school. Each was to be administered by the music teacher.
Shortly thereafter he was contacted by the public school and was explained that the teacher must be paid a stipend for selecting the student to receive the scholarship, that's all he had to do. It wasn't much, but still, thanks for your generosity! We said okay and then Dad contacted the teacher at the private Catholic school and explained that since the public teacher would be receiving a stipend that she should too. She was flabbergasted and not accepting of this but Dad insisted it as being fair. She and the school accepted the offer as long as the stipend was paid into a student fund. Thirty six years later it's still being done.

Catholic schools, most parochial schools pay their teachers much less than public schools in the same area, about 1/2 or less depending on the location/property taxes. However, there's much more freedom for the teachers to plan curriculum and work with where their classes are 'at,' not where the district says all 7th graders should be on XX date. I've had classes that moved quickly through the standard curriculum and enriched the materials because the class was just highly skewed. Have done the reverse, when the class was skewed towards the lower end. In any class there are a few high/a few low, their needs must be met to the best of our abilities, sometimes it called for moderate differentiation, sometimes more. While the standards must be met, the depth depends on the abilities of the students.

In general there are numerous duties performed by parochial teachers without the 'extra pay' that would be given in public schools, as your dad found out. At the same time, the gifts that were given for holidays, birthdays, end of year, and sometimes 'for no reason at all,' were extremely generous, something that would be unusual in a public school-if the teacher could even accept it.

[Gunny]

Catholic schools, most parochial schools pay their teachers much less than public schools in the same area, about 1/2 or less depending on the location/property taxes. However, there's much more freedom for the teachers to plan curriculum and work with where their classes are 'at,' not where the district says all 7th graders should be on XX date. I've had classes that moved quickly through the standard curriculum and enriched the materials because the class was just highly skewed. Have done the reverse, when the class was skewed towards the lower end. In any class there are a few high/a few low, their needs must be met to the best of our abilities, sometimes it called for moderate differentiation, sometimes more. While the standards must be met, the depth depends on the abilities of the students.

In general there are numerous duties performed by parochial teachers without the 'extra pay' that would be given in public schools, as your dad found out. At the same time, the gifts that were given for holidays, birthdays, end of year, and sometimes 'for no reason at all,' were extremely generous, something that would be unusual in a public school-if the teacher could even accept it.

Y'all actually make less money? That seems weird.

[Kathianne]

Y'all actually make less money? That seems weird.

No, it's never been a secret. Parochial schools want to have as many students as possible, they give scholarships where possible, but it's a very small number. In all but the most poverty ridden parochial schools, the salaries are paid for out of tuition paid and often augmented by donations to the church for the schools. In Catholic schools, the poorest are given money by the diocese, but not those with sustainable tuition structures. Thus one sees the huge number of parochial school closings since the 1970's.

Starting pay in the diocese I taught in was $28k, that was bumped up from the $22k I started at in 1999. Average pay is like $32k, but one doesn't hit that until 8 years experience-and caps at $38k. Thus one can see they are able to retain teachers. For some it's seen as 'faith service,' for most I know it was for freedom to teach and present materials that they thought most important.

Our public school system starts at $34k and caps out at $112k-that would be with over 10 years experience and Master's+20. Not included are stipends for extra-curricular. One extra-curricular is required for all teachers, many take on more.

[aboutime]

So, it sounds as if those Teachers who always say they Love to Teach, despite their pay, and purely for the CHILDREN...are all LYING?

Real, dedicated, hard-working, devoted, honest Teachers are now becoming a different professional, depending on their Union affiliations, and their Pay???

Whatever happened to FOR THE CHILDREN FIRST?